12.08.25 Empowerment: Fitness Trackers / Home Equity: When A HELOC Makes Sense

Summary

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The Clark Howard Podcast

Episode: 12.08.25 – Empowerment: Fitness Trackers / Home Equity: When A HELOC Makes Sense
Date: December 8, 2025
Host: Clark Howard | Co-host: Krista

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Clark Howard puts the spotlight on individual empowerment—both in health and finances. The first half explores the evolving role of fitness trackers, including how wearables are rapidly advancing from simple step counters to powerful health monitors, even contributing to early medical diagnoses. The second half delves into the complexities of home equity: when tapping into it makes sense, the best strategies for doing so, and warnings against misusing this valuable asset. Throughout, Clark answers a variety of listener questions on HSAs, student loans, custodial Roth IRAs, savings bonds, and renter issues.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Fitness Trackers—From Obsession to Empowerment

[00:40 – 07:35]

• Personal Health Data as Motivation:
  Clark discusses his personal use of multiple fitness trackers—an Oura ring, Samsung smartwatch, and Garmin device. He confesses his "obsession" with tracking health metrics.

  • Quote: “Having the data is not necessarily affirmation. It is drive. It drives me.” – Clark, [01:57]

• Emerging Medical Uses:
  A study presented at the American Medical Association convention and reported by the Financial Times found that Apple Watch EKG data could predict, with near-perfect accuracy, the onset of severe heart issues—thanks to AI and data analysis from wearable devices.

  • Quote: “We are moving into an era where consumer products we may already own... are able in advance to predict with near-perfect accuracy who has lurking within them serious heart problems.” – Clark, [03:01]

• Consumer Devices in Health:
  Clark shares his brother's experience using a Kardia 6-lead device, which detected an irregular heartbeat and allowed for swift medical intervention.

  • “Ignorance is not bliss.” – Clark, [04:35]

• Lighthearted Interlude:
  Clark and Krista joke about Clark’s cracked Garmin device. Krista teases, “Maybe you need to get an eye check, anyway!” [06:55] Clark contemplates reducing the number of wearables he uses, admitting he may “probably [be] overdoing it,” but insists it's about “trying to stay as healthy as I can for sure.” – Clark, [07:35]

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2. Listener Q&A: Financial Empowerment

[07:43 – 15:01]

a. HSA Contributions: Dual Employer Coverage

• Question from Medora in Georgia: Both spouses required to use separate employer health plans (HDHPs)—can they benefit from two sets of HSA contributions?
• Clark’s Take:
  Both spouses may benefit from employer HSA contributions, but family and individual IRS limits apply.
  • Quote: “You will both be eligible to get that employer money, each from your separate employer. There's a max per individual and per family, but employers aren't giving you enough of that for sure.” – Clark & Krista, [09:16]

b. Best Used Cars for Average Income

• Question from Johnny in Michigan: What to buy for value and reliability?
• Clark’s Advice:
  • For used: Toyota Camry, Camry Hybrid, or RAV4 Hybrid.
  • Consumer Reports lists are the gold standard—also mentions Subaru for reliability.
  • Tip: Check library for free Consumer Reports access.
  • Quote: “The vehicles were overwhelmingly specific Subaru models and Toyota models.” – Clark, [10:45]

c. Teen Investor Starting a Custodial Roth IRA

• Question from Sergio, a 17-year-old in Indiana: Saved $1,000 from side jobs, wants to open a Roth IRA, recommendations?
• Clark’s Response:
  • Fidelity is recommended for minors close to 18, as it transfers control smoothly at adulthood.
  • Suggests investing in an indexed target retirement fund (latest date available, e.g., 2070).
  • Recommends depositing the lump sum rather than dollar-cost averaging for this scenario.
  • Quote: “You're awesome. I don't remember having you as a child, but you sound like what I would hope my children would be like.” – Clark, [11:54]

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3. Feature Topic: Home Equity – When a HELOC Makes Sense

[18:20 – 23:19]

• Changing Homeownership Landscape:
  A growing share of Americans now own their homes outright—estimated at 40%—up from historical norms of 30%. Many hold low payments or significant equity, making it less appealing to move.

• When To Tap Home Equity:

  • Appropriate uses: Home repairs, major improvements, or necessary replacements (roof, etc.).
  • Clark’s Rule: Do not use home equity for lifestyle upgrades (cars, boats, credit card debt).
    • Quote: “The equity in that home should not be squandered on anything involving lifestyle. It should be about maintaining or improving the value of that home.” – [20:07]

• HELOC vs. Home Equity Loan: Which Is Better?

  • In the current interest rate environment (rates trending down): HELOCs, usually less favored, may actually be the better fit compared to term loans.
  • Product Nuances:
    • Loans: Best sourced from credit unions, typically in 5- or 10-year terms. Five years is the “sweet spot” for interest and term balance.
    • Lines: Favor those with “no or low closing costs” (often found at credit unions/small banks). Key detail—watch the interest rate floor to ensure you benefit from falling rates.
    • Quote: “Right now it might be sweeter to do the home equity line rather than the loan.” – [21:53]

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4. Listener Q&A: Financial Scenarios and Consumer Rights

[23:19 – 33:10]

a. Student Loans: Seeking Forgiveness

• Question from Brett in Ohio: Daughter-in-law owes $200,000+ in student loans after 20 years—next steps?
• Clark’s Process:
  • Categorize loans (public vs. private).
  • For federal loans: Check eligibility for repayment/forgiveness at ed.gov.
  • For private: “Paying minimums is a trap,” must pay more than the minimum to avoid lifetime debt.
  • Quote: “A counselor is not necessarily the path. It's information that's the path.” – Clark, [25:43]

b. Forced Internet Package Fee for Renters

• Question from Arnelia in Georgia: Rental company mandating internet fees not disclosed in lease—legal?
• Clark’s Advice:
  • Check lease for any clause allowing mandatory utility fees.
  • If no such provision, respond via certified mail refusing payment.
  • “Landlords tend to sometimes play fast and loose, and it's up to you to stand up for yourself.” – [27:55]

c. Redeeming Savings Bonds into a 529 Plan

• Question from Andy in Texas: Are proceeds from redeemed savings bonds tax-free in a 529?
• Clark’s Answers & Steps:
  • Yes, if bonds are in your name and you open a 529 as owner with the child as beneficiary, and funds are moved within 60 days.
  • Income limits apply for tax-free status.
  • Must report income (1099-INT) on tax return, then back out if eligible.
  • Quote: “Congress… is trying to encourage people to save in advance for those expenses so that you don't end up with student loans…” – Clark, [31:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Knowledge, properly stored, processed, is power. And that's what I want you to have.”
  — Clark, [00:44]

• “We are moving into an era where consumer products we may already own… are able in advance to predict with near-perfect accuracy who has lurking within them serious heart problems…”
  — Clark, [03:01]

• “Having the data is not necessarily affirmation. It is drive. It drives me.”
  — Clark, [01:57]

• (To a teen investing caller) “You're awesome. I don't remember having you as a child, but you sound like what I would hope my children would be like.”
  — Clark, [11:54]

• “Paying minimums is a trap to keep you in debt for the rest of your life.”
  — Clark, [25:08]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:40] – Clark’s fitness-tracker habits and the health-tracking tech revolution
• [03:01] – Groundbreaking Yale/Apple Watch heart study
• [07:43] – Q&A: Dual-employer HSAs & contribution rules
• [09:34] – Q&A: Clark’s car-buying recommendations for 2025
• [11:26] – Q&A: Teen seeking advice on custodial Roth IRAs
• [18:20] – Feature Topic: Home equity, when/why/how to tap it
• [23:27] – Q&A: Student loan forgiveness process
• [26:53] – Q&A: Can landlords force renters into utility fees?
• [29:20] – Q&A: Moving savings bonds to a 529 plan for tax benefits

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Final Thoughts

Clark wraps up with his hallmark message: use knowledge to empower yourself financially and help others do the same. The episode offers practical insights—from health and tech measures you can adopt today to strategic, nuanced financial decisions for mortgages, investing, and consumer rights.

“Learning ways to save more, spend less and avoid ever, ever, ever getting ripped off. Have a great day.”
— Clark Howard, [32:44]

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Transcript

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[Clark Howard]

It's my pleasure to welcome you here to the Clark Howard show, where our mission is to serve you with advice and information that empowers you to make better financial decisions in your life. I want to take a moment to thank you for, for listening to or watching this podcast. Because the goal that I have for you is that you learn something that you're empowered by every day. Some days I'll fail in doing that for you, but the goal is always the same thing, is to give you knowledge. Because knowledge, properly stored, processed, is power. And that's what I want you to have. Now I want to tell you, everybody has some things that are unusual about them. Clearly, something unusual about me is my obsession with tracking my fitness and my health. But I'm going to tell you in just a minute. Turns out I'm not as crazy as it may seem, at least not for that reason. And later I get so many questions about the right and wrong way to tap equity that you may be fortunate to have built up in your home. I want to talk about when you should do it and how you should do it, if that's something you're considering in your life. So yeah, it's true. Those of you watch the YouTube show, you can see my, I don't know if it's a flaw or whatever, my obsessions. I have my Aura fitness ring, health ring. I have my Samsung smartwatch, does all kinds of health tracking. Then I have my Garmin fitness tracker. And obviously that's really weird to wear three of them, but I love staying fit. And having the data is not necessarily affirmation. It is drive. It drives me. I look down at my garment and say, oh, I haven't met my goal today. My goal today according to garment is 14,810 steps, which is almost seven and a half miles. That's what it wants me to do today based on what it feels would be Optimum performance for me. And the aura tells me every day how I slept and how basically my heart health is. Well now the story I read in the Financial Times of London that is really important stuff. This was just released at the American Medical association convention that a study was done at Yale that found that the Apple watch that has the ability to do what's known as a one lead EKG kind of thing that now the Yale scientists were able to use that data to figure out in advance for people wearing Apple watches, there's no reason this wouldn't also be applicable to all these other things I wear that's able in advance to predict with near perfect accuracy who has lurking within them serious heart problems that could lead to all kinds of things like early death, heart attack, that kind of thing. The study was done over eight years involving over 100,000 people. And they were able with new AI tools to successfully predict who needed to get into a cardiologist who'd never been to one or who had early warning signs that maybe the appointments the cardiologist you already have that they hadn't seen what the Apple watch is seeing. And we're in the early stages of this, of what these devices are going to do. I have a brother who has trouble keeping his heart in proper rhythm and he's using a Cardia 6 lead, which is something I've talked about before. It's a consumer device that sends a report directly to his cardiologist's office and the cardia identified that his heart had gone out of rhythm and he was able to get in and get that taken care of. Where this is a case where ignorance is not bliss. So we are moving into an era where consumer products we may already own or in the case of my brother, getting the cardia K A R D I A by the way, if you're interested in getting a cardio that you do a simple test in the morning, I've used a cardi, I've used mine against the knee and it gives you a very good accurate 6 lead EKG. I mean these devices and again they're designed if a medical center is tied into them to send the report that could be urgent for your health and life directly to a doctor. This is the kind of stuff that's coming. So you can also end up with a certain obsession, which I clearly have with all these devices. And Krista, I got a story to tell you before we go to questions.

[Krista]

Okay.

[Clark Howard]

So I don't know if you can see my Garmin. I've cracked it pretty Badly.

[Krista]

Oh, I can't see it, actually. But look.

[Clark Howard]

Look in that light. Can you see? It's got cracks across and feel it so. Well, are you sure? Yeah. Here, I'll take it off. You can see.

[Krista]

Oh, my gosh. But when you step toward me, that doesn't count. Now what are you gonna do?

[Clark Howard]

Okay, so you gotta look in this corner. It's all cracked. Gosh.

[Krista]

I don't.

[Clark Howard]

Maybe you need to get an eye check anyway.

[Krista]

Me.

[Clark Howard]

So I've been trying to decide when's it time to get a new one? Or is it finally time for me to go from three devices.

[Krista]

Oh, wow.

[Clark Howard]

To two to two, because what's the point? Yeah, because my Samsung counts my steps also. Just like the Garmin.

[Krista]

That's what I use.

[Clark Howard]

I use my Samsung and it harasses me to be active. It says, get up, walk around. You're being sedentary. So probably I'm overdoing it. Probably.

Man. Yes, I am overdoing it. But it's all about trying to stay as healthy as I can for sure.

[Krista]

And that is important to all of us. All right, are you ready for questions? All right. Medora in Georgia says my employer recently announced that all spouses who have the opportunity for another health care plan through their employer must take it. How do HSA contributions work if both spouses can get on an HDHP through their employer? Is there a silver lining here, such as that they can take advantage of each employer's contributions to their HSAs?

[Clark Howard]

Right. Medora, first of all, a couple things. What you said has been happening very heavily this fall enrollment. Because health insurance premiums are skyrocketing this year for small businesses and for individuals. And that's all tied up in that big fight that Congress had about the subsidies on the Obamacare plans. So you being cast off to your employer's plan instead of being on your spouse's plan happening all over America. Second, hd. Hp. What's that meant? High deductible health plan that triggers eligibility for an hsa. And actually, your spouse's employer may be doing you a favor because if you both have employers that give you money towards your HSA and you haven't been eligible for it because you weren't on the employer plan. Now, you will both be eligible to get that employer money, each from your separate employer.

[Krista]

But there's a max per family per year.

[Clark Howard]

Yes, there's a max per individual and per family, but employers aren't giving you.

[Krista]

Enough of that for sure. Johnny in Michigan says, hi, Clark. If you had to buy a vehicle with an average income for 2025 going up against the end of it now, what would you buy and why? Thanks for all you and your staff do for everyone.

[Clark Howard]

So if you go with what Consumer Reports has said, it's pretty clear what you'd be looking at. For an average income, you'd be buying a used Toyota Camry or Camry hybrid or a used Toyota RAV4 Hybrid based on Consumer Reports research of used vehicles. On the other hand, if you were to use Google or whatever search engine use and you asked it Consumer Reports recommended vehicles for they don't have a 26 list yet it's 25. They maybe the 26 is out. I just haven't seen it. But what's interesting about it, we covered this on a podcast probably two, three months ago is that the vehicles were overwhelmingly specific Subaru models and Toyota models. Again from Toyota. The Camry and the RAV4 both made the list. Several Subarus made the list as the in the category of quote unquote affordable and reliable and testing very well vehicles. So if you Again, if you don't have Consumer Reports, you can access these lists in full through your library for free or by one time access from Consumer Reports. Or you can just Google and see the non subscriber summary of what are those recommended vehicles to look at new and used.

[Krista]

All right. Sergio in Indiana says Hi Clark, I'm 17 years old in a junior in high school. I've saved about a thousand dollars from side jobs like mowing lawns, babysitting and helping elderly neighbors.

[Clark Howard]

Good for you.

[Krista]

I know my parents aren't very financially experienced, but I really want to learn how to handle money wisely and invest early for my future. I've been researching Roth IRAs and want to open a custodial one, but I'm not sure where to start. Which brokerage would you recommend? How should I invest the money once it's open? And is it smarter to invest the full $1,000 now or gradually over time?

[Clark Howard]

All right, so you're awesome.

[Krista]

Yes.

[Clark Howard]

I don't remember having you as a child.

But you sound like what I would hope my children would be like. Oh, they are. All three of my kids are really into saving money. So the thousand bucks I would consider Fidelity because you're so close to 18. Fidelity gives a mid to late teenage more control of a custodial account than other financial institutions. So you could go to Fidelity, open an account and you said your parents aren't experienced. You can be their teacher. But anyway, if you open a custodial account with Fidelity Custodial Roth IRA again, you'll get control of it your next birthday less in Some states it's 21, usually 18. And you would put the money if you followed my general guidelines. You put the money in a target retirement fund. And Fidelity has two versions of that. You want to be in the indexed version of the target retirement fund and do it for the last year they've got, which probably is maybe 2070 at this point. And so that means the money would be overwhelmingly invested for decades to come. Widely diversified in the stock market as to whether you put that thousand in all at once or put it in pieces. There's normally an advantage to dollar cost averaging, but not really. In this case, I just throw the thousand in. Know the market could take a dip for a while. But the thing is the mass says time in the market will benefit you. And as you keep working through the remainder of your teens into your 20s, you've got a head start. You keep adding to that Roth ira. The other alternative I like is Vanguard for that. But they're going to require more traditional control on a custodial account invested the same way. But how great you're helping those neighbors. You're doing all these things. You've got the income. You invest it now and it will grow tax free for the next 50 years and it will grow into quite a bit of money, just that initial amount. And that's why starting young is so important to creating financial independence. Coming up ahead, I want to talk about. A lot of Americans would like to buy a home and can't find one they can afford. A lot of other Americans have a home that they can't afford to sell because their payment's so good and they've got so much equity in it. I want to talk about the temptation of tapping the equity when you should do it and the right way way to do that.

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[Clark Howard]

This is such an unusual time. As I just said a couple minutes ago, with how Americans are sitting on enormous equity in their homes. I saw a stat recently. I've only seen one place and I've not seen it independently verified in multiple sources, but that we have the largest percent of people who are buying a home owning it free and clear that we've ever had in stats. In the modern era, roughly 40% of Americans own their homes free and clear. Historically it was around 30%. So people are staying in place who might have cycled out, but they're staying because they didn't pay a lot in today's dollars for a home. They own it substantially or they own it free and clear. And the house getting some age on it and it needs work. That's when it's a okay to borrow against the equity that home has built up over the years to repair things, improve them, replace a roof, something like that. If you walk into a bank, they're going to push you into often some form of home improvement loan. And the reality is you will probably if you're using the equity built up in your home and what would be for a purpose, I would say not to buy a boat, not to buy a car, not to pay down high interest rate credit cards, not to do any of those things. But the equity in that home should not be squandered on anything involving lifestyle. It should be about maintaining or improving the value of that home. And right now something I usually say no, I wouldn't do is probably the best way to tap equity to do improvements to your home. And that's a heloc. Normally I talk about joining a credit union or at the credit union you're already at looking at doing a home equity loan, not a home equity line. But we now are in a cycle of what I think for a while is going to be interest rates trending down and in a cycle of lowering interest rates, doing a HELOC can be superior to doing a home equity loan. And I'm going to review quite quickly on the home equity loans. They are very heavily a credit union product. The superior ones, credit union product, not a bank product. They tend to be written for a 5 year term, 10 year term or 15 year term, 5 year term. Home equity loans have very Favorable interest rates and terms, but you got to be able to pay off whatever you're doing to your home in 60 months. 10 year home equity loans, and these are fixed rate, carry a higher interest rate because there's more risk to the lender. 15 year home equity loans are usually bad, ugly with much higher rates and you're paying off a home improvement over a crazy long period of time. So 10 would be the most you do a loan. Home Equity Loan 5 is the sweet spot. But right now it might be sweeter to do the home equity line rather than the loan. The line you draw on the equity up to an amount that's pre approved. Often smaller banks and credit unions will originate those with with no closing costs or extremely low closing costs. And it's a standby borrow. Some may require that you do a little borrow in order to have the no closing costs or low closing costs and the interest rate can float every 30 days. But in a environment where interest rates are steady or trending down, the home equity line can be superior to the loan. One thing you want to look for with any home equity line, what's the floor? What's the lowest that interest rate can go? There are particularly banks that are setting up home equity lines where they're anticipating interest rates going lower, but they cut you out of the lower rates by putting a high floor on the lowest the line can go, but no ceiling on how high the rate can go. You got to pay attention to the details. And again, because credit unions are co ops owned by their members, they are normally a superior place for you to get a home equity line or a home equity loan.

[Krista]

Okay, let's go to some questions. Brett in Ohio says my son married a wonderful woman about two and a half years ago.

[Clark Howard]

They both so I love that. I love that because Brett really is crazy about his daughter in law.

[Krista]

I know, it's so nice to hear.

[Clark Howard]

Because think how often people are like, oh yeah, he's marrying her. People are thinking him.

[Krista]

People are thinking about that a lot around the holidays and all the family gatherings. All right, well, he's Brett says they both work, bought a house in Austin five months ago and additionally seven weeks ago they give birth to two wonderful healthy twin boys.

[Clark Howard]

Congratulations.

[Krista]

Yep. My daughter in law has student loans of over $200,000 that are about 20 years old. She's been making regular minimum payments but is unsure as to whether any of this qualifies for student loan forgiveness and has no plan except to keep paying the minimum every month while watching the balances increase. She needs help. Financial issues are probably not her strength. Who would you recommend she hire and meet with to get clarity on her situation and and develop and educate her on a solid plan for moving forward?

[Clark Howard]

Okay, first of all, you freak me out when you say she's making minimum payments and the balances are increasing because the minimum she's making. It sounds like some or many or much of the borrowing she did is on private student loans, not public loans. But here's what I have an assignment for her, Brett. And I know she's busy with the two babies, but when the babies are sleeping, I want her to spreadsheet all the loans she has the individual loans, and I want her to figure out what the balance is on each one, the interest rate on each, and whether they are public or private. Each, the ones that are public. At the US Department of Education website ed.gov there's a section devoted to figuring out on your loans that are public loans. If you said 20 years, she may already be eligible for loan forgiveness on some of those federal loans. Because federal loans with on time payments over the years, the remaining balance for many of those loans can be forgiven after 20 or 25 years. Now the forgiven amount is taxable, but that's still much cheaper than having to pay the remaining balance on the loans. The private loans are a whole different matter. So that's why you got a spreadsheet. The private loans paying minimums is a trap to keep you in debt for the rest of your life. It's almost like with a credit card that if you pay the minimums, you'll be in debt usually for four decades. So the student loans are worse, the private student loans, in that you stay in debt forever if you pay the minimums. So what she doesn't know is where the problem is. A counselor is not necessarily the path. It's information that's the path. And she's just got to discipline herself to sit down, make the list, figure out what the loans are, and on the private ones, she's got to pay more than the minimum. I mean, that's just all there is to it.

[Krista]

Okay, and then Arnelia in Georgia says, I'm currently a renter with a well known home rental company. Recently, a few other renters and I who rent from this company received an email stating that we must subscribe to their Internet package at the beginning of the year. We do not have the choice to opt out of the Internet package. It's mandatory and the monthly fee will be included in our rent. This package is not Mentioned in the lease are rental companies allowed to force renters to accept an Internet package.

[Clark Howard]

So it's very common that rental companies in the lease reserve for themselves the ability to have mandatory utility fees that are passed on to tenants that become a profit center for, for the landlord. You need to, you and your neighbors need to thoroughly go through the lease and make sure there's no clause in there that is a waterfront kind of clause that would give the landlord the ability to rip you off with an Internet package. Having said that, there's lots of reports out there of landlords passing on fees like this illegally that there is no provision in the lease allowing it. So read that lease, every single sentence of it. Hopefully one of your neighbors is a lawyer or paralegal and will be able to help help each other know whether or not you are in a position, you have to pay it. And if it's not in the lease that they have the right to do so you send the landlord a certified letter saying that you refuse to pay this because it is not in your lease. But landlords tend to sometimes play fast and loose and it's up to you to stand up for yourself. Most people just roll over and pay whatever. No, but I am worried that in the lease somewhere there's some inane sentence in there that makes no sense that actually makes dollars for the landlord that gives them the ability to do it. That's why you've got to read it so closely.

[Krista]

And Andy in Texas says it's my understanding that we can redeem savings bonds and put the proceeds into a 529. If we do this within the 60 day window, the earnings are not taxable. Can you confirm this? And also if the bonds are in my name, can my child receive the funds in her 529?

[Clark Howard]

No. The 529 has to be owned by the person who has the series I or series EE savings bonds and you just name that recipient as the beneficiary of the 529 account. So this is an annex to a long standing thing where savings bonds used for eligible college expenses, the earnings over the years instead of being taxed as ordinary income, become tax free. So as a result, you can also move series I and series double E savings bonds tax free into a 529. As long as you follow all the rules. You have to have the bonds that were issued at after. Well that anybody today would have bonds were issued after 1990 and you again do not move them to a child's own 529. You set up one for yourself as the owner, then you name that child as a beneficiary. You have to do it within 60 days of when you get the money from the Series I or series EE savings bonds and you document everything that it will be tax free. And when you do your return, if you use a professional, they'll know how to do this. But for you, you gotta, you gotta both report the income because you'll get a 1099 from the US treasury and then you back it out of your return because it was a tax free movement of the money. So this is a great thing in the right situation. Oh, and I didn't mention if you make too much money, you're not allowed to do this tax free exchange. And if you go to Investopedia or something like that, you'll see a briefing explaining all the things I talked about. Plus the income limits on being able to move money from series I or Series E savings bonds tax free over to 529. Everything the Congress has been doing with money for college and trade school and things like that is trying to encourage people to save in advance for those expenses so that you don't end up with student loans or the child doesn't end up with student loans that will follow them for many, many years to come. As we heard just a moment ago about the nice couple with the two newborns and 200,000 plus in student loan debt, that's a lot. Well, I hope you heard something today that you found interesting and useful in your life that you can relate to somebody else who you hear. I'm talking about some say, oh well let me tell you about this that we all help each other. You know my whole thing about what we do on our websites and our newsletters, what we do on social media, what I do if you're in a market where you see me on TV or hear me on radio. It's all about knowledge that gives you more control in your own life to make better decisions to create more financial independence. You're caring to debt to work through getting rid of that debt. That's what this is about is you learning ways to save more, spend less and avoid ever, ever, ever getting ripped off. Have a great day.

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