A (2:47)

Good, man. How you doing?

B (2:50)

You have got there.

A (2:52)

I was gonna say. I don't, I don't know, man. I, you know, I should have brought a tie just for this shirt, though. That would have, we would have, we would have fit better together here.

B (2:59)

You're good, brother. You're good. No, I've been watching your content. I know I reached out to you about, like, a few months back. We just couldn't make it work.

A (3:06)

We're busy men. But, hey, we did it. We're here. We're here now.

B (3:10)

You know, I had a 2, 2 hour window after did a few interviews yesterday. I went to the beach. I'm like, I need to get the ocean. If you're in Los Angeles, just go down there. I went down to Malibu Pier and I was just like, just getting, just the smell of the ocean, you know. But how you doing today?

A (3:27)

Touch the Pacific. I'm doing good, I'm doing good. Yeah, we're, you know, it's. Traffic was reasonable, speaking of LA getting down here. But we, we're hot off of a, a, a big meetup that we did like three or four days ago with a bunch of freelancers in town and, and it's, you know, and then there's a bunch of freelancers here at a convention downtown right now. So, I mean, it's, it's a happening week for freelancers, for, for creative business owners and, you know, just folks who are, who are independent operators. So it's, it's fun to be. It's, it's a fun week for us.

B (3:58)

No, no, that's awesome. And how was the event? Like, how, what was the setup like?

A (4:04)

It was great. I mean, it was, we, I told all the, it was, we had, we started with a panel. It was me, Christo, James Barnard and Adrian Purr, who are all creative entrepreneurs that have, you know, done extremely well for themselves. And you have made a career out of inspiring others to do the same. And I told the guys as we were headed up to the panel, I was like, living room vibes, guys. Living room vibes. You know, like, I want this to feel like just a living room with a bunch of creatives together. We're just family, like, just, just hashing it out. And that matriculated through the whole night. And it was reported back to me that that was the sense that everybody got right, which is just the, the insights that were being shared. The, you know, the, the solutions that were being discussed were all. I guess the revelatory thing was that we're all kind of dealing with. It doesn't matter what stage we're at, we're all kind of dealing with a version of the same stuff, you know, and the message of the night was, you know, a lot of the people walked into that room thinking that they were alone and building something on their own. And they walked out of the room realizing, oh, no, I'm part of a movement. I'm part of something really big now. Because the majority of the American workforce alone is going to be freelancers by 2027. Like, it's like we're changing the shape of, of work. We're changing the shape of what work looks like worldwide. I mean, it's not. That statistic is unique to America, but I mean, across, across the world, you know, it's going this direction. So it was cool to get us all in a room and realize just how strong we are. You know, I love them.

B (5:36)

I love that. Freelancing has become ever so popular, especially from 2020 due to Covid.

A (5:44)

Absolutely.

B (5:44)

And when did you start?

A (5:46)

I started freelancing in 2007, maybe 2006. 2007. I was in high school still. 17 years old is when I started. And so you're a 90, 90 baby. I am a 89 baby. Okay. Yeah. So, and the. When I got started, social media wasn't a thing. I'm, I'm in digital video. That was my, you know, my, my career for 17 years. And the only place for digital video to go was television. Right. So, so 17 year old Jamie would go door to door, knocking on local businesses. Door to door. We got that in common. Knocking on local businesses and asking, hey, do you need a TV commercial? I do TV commercials. Right. And so obviously over time, I learned there's a better way to position yourself than I do TV commercials. Do you need one? You know, uh, but, you know, all it took was one, uh, and then that person knew Somebody and then that person knew somebody and before you knew it, I was, you know, 17, 18 years old. I'd go film a commercial and negotiate, you know, the, the airtime with the local fox, NBC, abc, Comcast, what have you. And, and that's, you know, that's, that's what got me started. Yeah, it was, it's, you know, flash forward to today and ironically 2020 you mentioned is when we started our Instagram.

B (7:09)

Wow.

A (7:10)

Because, you know, we were at a stage. When I say we, I'm talking about my wife and I. My wife and I are business partners, but we were at a stage of our production studio career where we were looking to diversify our revenue. So it's like we had, you know, we had scaled our B2B client based service substantially to where we had, you know, teams flying out to different venues to film and we had editors and we, you know, what have you. But we wanted to kind of de. Risk the business a little bit and diversify the revenue pie. And so we started looking at digital products and we're thinking, you know, well, that would mean we, we'd have to get on social media and start, you know, selling on the Internet. And the, the plan A was, you know, take the, the byproduct of all the things that we developed for delivering for our customers, the templates and the animation rigs and everything, and sell them to people that maybe couldn't afford to work with us. So we were going to build an audience of our customers. And then Covid happened and Courtney and I sat in our second bedroom office and said what if instead of that we helped people that look like us build their business. Right. So we take the byproduct that maybe we weren't necessarily counting for, which was our wisdom and experience of doing this for 15 years at the time and, and, and you know, put that on social media and help folks who are maybe losing their jobs or have a little extra time now they're working from home for the year and let them know, hey, something wonderful has just happened. As horrific as Covid is and the, the repercussions of COVID you know, have you now have this opportunity to build something on your own. And it's never been simpler to build something on your own. Right. It's, there's never been more assets available to somebody on that journey. And so that's, that's what kicked us off in 2020. And you know, I think there was a, just a, I mean we tapped into the zeitgeist because it was, I Think within a few months we had a thousand followers on Instagram, and then two weeks later we had 5,000 followers. And then two weeks later we had 100,000 followers. It was just. Everybody was very interested in what this journey looks like.

B (9:29)

Wow, that is crazy. But I also wanted to ask a few questions. Obviously, with freelancing, do you think there is competitive edge for those that outsource to outside the United States as compared to locally within the United States? The reason I say that I have about half of the people that edit and do all my work are locally. They have to be like, within Utah because. But we release so much of content and sometimes we have to be at a fast pace where we're still delegating and doing multiple stuff, where we also end up outsourcing outside like the United States. And obviously due to like, timing and how things work, like the. They still get the work done. But do you think because of the standard of living and how prices are in the United States, it's a little harder for those that are within the US as compared to when they outsource, like, out. Out the United States?

A (10:22)

I think it all depends on what problem you're trying to solve. Like, if you're trying to solve the problem of I don't have money, then yeah, the. There you maybe take a look outside the the US where your money can move a little further and, you know, and still do some good for the folks that you're hiring. But, you know, like you mentioned in Salt Lake, it's like, if you're trying to solve the problem of, you know, something that's localized, that you need somebody in the room for, then that's, that's where you got to go. So I, and I think that too many freelancers, you know, and. But the other thing to say is that just because you're not speaking to freelancers that aren't in the US that doesn't mean your only play is to play the pricing game, you know, like, because there are plenty of freelancers that are in the US that we, we pay way more than your freelancers in the US that we work with because, you know, we're spending against an expensive problem. So it's like we're happy to, you know, if that person's got the fix, that's the person I'm going to hire, you know, but if, like, if, you know, looking for reasons, geographically speaking, you know, that obviously budget could be one. Another one that's interesting is if you want your business to never sleep, right? So it's like if, when you're sleeping, your team, you know, is on a different time, you know, in a different time zone, and they're just waking up and they're getting started. Right. And then they go to bed and you're just waking up and you're getting started. So that's. That's another strategy to put to work as well.

B (11:46)

And I've noticed that because I'll be calling like an. An Airbnb call center.

A (11:52)

Yeah.

B (11:53)

And then you hear like an Asian or Eastern, like, accent.

A (12:00)

Yeah.

B (12:00)

And you could tell that it's been outsourced from a different country that they can operate 24. 7. When I did my internship in Bloomb in New York, before I graduated college, their call center was located in multiple different countries. And because they have to be able to work with customers that can always be on their terminal 24 7. So even though you're calling in the US and you've got a problem with your terminal, at like 3 o' clock in the morning, you're going to be calling and potentially could be somebody in South Africa or like in the United Kingdom that could be answering your phone call. So I think I completely understand what you're saying. For, even for me, like, I've had multiple different editors, and the one editor that could edit the way I want my stuff, like Stephen Bartlett, Diary of a CEO, where he just picks all the graphic. He was not in the United States. And. And I was like, I'm not going to underpay you, just a great job. You're going to get what I would be paying, if not even more as well. Because you're my best editor.

A (12:54)

Yeah.

B (12:54)

And so I want you to do everything you do for me full time from where you're at, and I'll just pay you. So, like, he's 100% full time for me.

A (13:01)

Epic.

B (13:01)

But that's messed up my sleeping schedule because I'm like, oh, I got this one thing. How about we add that thing at like 3 o' clock in the morning? But I got Jamie brindle at like 10 and as well, so I gotta get my sleep, so.

A (13:11)

You look very rested today.

B (13:13)

Yeah, no, I love this freelancing thing. So when. What's the. What would you say is the service right now that is gonna be booming in the freelancing industry?

A (13:25)

I mean, here's the thing. I don't think there is any one particular market that's better than the other. Like, I don't think there is a such thing as, like, a crowded market or an ideal market. I think, you know, really you cut through the noise and you succeed based on the specificity of the problem that you solve. So it's, you know, the, the market and this and the skill set are almost inconsequential. Like they're a means to an end. And the business, the business lives or dies by the how specific, how urgent and how painful the problem you solve is. Right? So I mean, you know, choose a market that's interesting to you. Choose a market that maybe you have that's over represented in your niche. Like maybe you got a lot of family in the restaurant business, you know, so it's like they'll refer you to other restaurant owners or you got a lot of family in Fintech, you know, or you got a lot of your college roommates went into fintech. Like, you know, so like choose, you know, something that's where you've got a leg up or at least have some interest in it. And then, you know, once you pick that market, go find the, the problem that's urgent and painful and then kind of reverse engineer how you're going to solve that problem with what it is that you do, you know, so it's like if, if the problem is, you know, is we're not getting, you know, the conversions we want to be getting on a monthly basis, then, you know, and you're a graphic designer, then it's okay, well, what can I do with graphic design to help these people solve that? You know, okay, or you're a web developer. What can I do with development to help these people solve that problem? You know, so I think that's the play. Like, you know, obviously AI is changing everything, everybody's business and I'm sure, you know, it's, I mean, it's almost a cliche at this point to mention that. But like, I think, you know, if, if you want to pay attention to one thing, you know, or one, you know, kind of trendy item, it would be that I would figure out how to implement AI in that solution. Because then you can come at it and yield the results of a team of 10 or 20 as an individual. And right now that's still a competitive advantage. I think that's going to be par for the course like eight months from now. It's going to be the expectation. So if you want to take advantage of a little bit of a window of opportunity, it would probably be that figure out how to wield AI, you know. Now I, I couldn't agree more.

B (15:49)

As a matter of fact, I think I even asked somebody Similar question. And they often said AI number one as priority. But he also stress on the fact that even if you learn something like Python and like, solving people's problems is going to be such a big thing because everything right now has become in, in the remote space where it's become a bit more convenient for most people. My question now to you. What was the biggest mental shift going from surviving freelancer to a business owner that's thriving? What is that big mental shift that occurs?

A (16:24)

I would say one of the biggest ones was realizing that business is the exchange of money for solutions, not the exchange of money for the thing I do. So for years I thought, okay, people are paying me because I make good videos, you know, like, and it's.

B (16:47)

That's.

A (16:48)

That's dangerous because, you know, you get lucky enough times and you think that that's the, that's the reason they're paying you. And really the reason that people are paying you is because you're solving a problem that's worth more than the money they're giving you. You know, and so, you know, I, I got lucky enough times to kind of skirt by, you know, where the client sussed that out for themselves, like, okay, Jamie can solve my problem, I'm going to hire him. But when I realized that that's what was going on, I started being able to position myself in that context and started talking about my service, the business results of my service, as opposed to the creative inputs. So it's like I'm no longer talking about shot choice and pacing and color and, you know, with clients because they don't give a. And then I start talking about conversion rate. Hey, how are we deploying this? Is this going to be a captive audience? Like, are you showing this in a meeting room or am I hijacking attention here? Is this going to be a pre roll ad that I have to like, how do you know all these things? It's okay, here's the business result that I'm yielding you with my creativity as opposed to you're purchasing my creativity, you know, And I think that that shift in the way I positioned my offer made a significant difference in our business, primarily. Like, like a, because, you know, it's easier to market that way because a business owner, you know, maybe is. Is going to skip past somebody talking about their craft and. But. But will lock in on somebody talking about how they're going to improve their conversion rate, you know, but, but also B, because in, in a sales, in the sales context, like, if I'm in a lineup with Four or five other videographers or editors. I, I almost guarantee you I'm the only person asking them about success metrics and conversion rates and, you know, the context of the audience and, you know, you know, where the goalposts are. Like, I'm, you know, I'm establishing myself as a strategic partner in that opening conversation in a way that I guarantee you none of the other, you know, creatives they're talking to are. So it's. It sets me apart. It sets me into this kind of new category of strategic partner that people maybe aren't used to when, when vetting freelancers. So I would say that was a, that was a big one for me. Is a business is the exchange of money for solutions, not. Not money for, you know, my, my creativity or whatever my, My service is.

B (19:20)

Oh, I absolutely love that. How have you struggled? I know many people, usually when they start in a certain field, they seem to struggle a bit with, like, the imposter syndrome, where they end up just charging way lower than their value as well.

A (19:35)

Yeah.

B (19:36)

And you see it a lot. But at the same time, how do you balance that with low ballers, you know, because some people just lowball regardless. But how can you just. How can people not, like, get over and overcome that imposter syndrome?

A (19:49)

Yeah, I mean, I have been blessed that I have been able to talk to thousands of freelancers at this point, like one on one in the DMs, on Zoom calls in our community. And I can say with 99.9% certainty, if you are a freelancer watching this. Where's my camera? If you are a freelancer watching this, you're undercharging like so many. Like, it's just that. It's just a thing. Like, freelancers just undervalue, you know, their, their solution, their service. So, you know, step one is to recognize that, like, no matter what you're charging right now, like, you're undercharging. So start experimenting with your rate. It's just, I asked the question to so many, you know, you know, how much are you charging? And very few of them will, you know, sometimes I'll say, you know, you should probably just, on the next five that come through, double the rate and see what happens. And a few of them will take me up on that and then hit me up and say, I got two people to pay me twice as much as I normally get.

B (20:51)

Funny.

A (20:52)

Funny how that happens. You know, it's. It's just. I don't know what it is. I think, you know, it's A. It's. Maybe it's a confidence issue. I'm sure there's a little fear involved, you know, scarcity, mindset, not wanting to lose the gig. But, yeah, for the most part, freelancers undervalue themselves. So I would say just start there with, like, that base fact that, like, you're probably undercharging. But then in terms of, you know, once you get past that, like, what the next. The next step of this process is is realizing back to what we're talking about, right? It's. It's that your clients are spending against the problem. So it's. It has very little to do with how much you cost and more to do with the certainty that you're going to solve the problem for them. Does that make sense? So, like, anecdotally, when Courtney and I are hiring somebody to come into our business and solve a problem for us, it's very rare that we don't choose the most expensive option. We almost always go for the priciest freelancer in the lineup because, you know, that's the person that's going to get it done for us. You know, and it's, you know, obviously we vet and make sure, you know, our assumption is correct. But, you know, pricing is a form of communication in and of itself, where it's like, if, you know, if you have a very, like, do or die problem in your business, like, you know, don't solve this and your business is dead in six months. Do you go to the cheapest option first or you go seek out the most expensive option and work your way back from there? Right? And that's. So you want to be that. That's. And it's. I mean, it all ties into everything we've talked about so far today. It's like you want to be solving that expensive, urgent problem where people are in the mood to just throw money at you to fix it for them, you know, so, you know, part of that is done ahead of time with the work that you do on developing your offer, that specificity and figuring out, you know, what problem you solve. But then, you know, another part of that is done at the marketing stage where it's like, okay, you're targeting people that are in that moment in their business now, right? Because it's like if you. If you catch somebody who's a year away from that moment or who's a year past that moment, they're not going to be customers for you, and you're going to. You're going to think it's not working. But really, it's just you've got your, you've mistimed your marketing, you know, or you're not speaking to the right person. And then, you know, and then in the sales conversation it's just, it's just, you know, pointing to all those, all those pressure points and you know, and identifying what the solve is.

B (23:23)

I mean, I couldn't concur more when you were just talking about that. It reminded me, obviously I, I drive a Tesla, but I look back at the time where I could have bought a better model.

A (23:37)

Yeah.

B (23:37)

With better range for just an extra 25000 and I'm like, ah, no, no. And it was also newer, like a year, like newer as well. And then looking back, I'm like, you know, let's just get this thing. And then you look back in time with the amount of travel I do because I still like traveling with comfortability that I can do a few stuff. It's such, it's costed me way more than 25000 in terms of time, in terms of value because now it's an extra two charges. It's just multiple different stuff. It's funny, it just, you know, looking back, it's like those four years, I'm like. So when you say the cheaper option, I've come to conclusion the cheaper option is not always the best. Matter of fact, sometimes it's always the worst option.

A (24:20)

It's usually the more expensive option.

B (24:22)

It's more expensive. That's so. Because those charges have accumulated over time, which I'm telling you with how much? I already told you, I'm going to like three different states, four different cities in the space of, of this week as well. And just because I'm charging all these different, you know, stations, that's just one week. What I'm trying to say is the fact that the cheapest option always becomes the most expensive because at the same time, if you pay what you value, it's convenience, it's, it's more experience, it's knowledgeable, it knows what it's doing and it takes a headache away.

A (24:52)

Yeah.

B (24:53)

And so I couldn't agree more. And I've seen that as well with, and I was telling them the other time that Aura House studio, out of all the studios I've done, I've done also 10 different states. It's slightly the more pricier one. But then it's the one where when people come in there, they have that experience. Like what a view. Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. They first want to go Leave a review. And like my Apple podcast, what I'm trying to say is the fact that I don't even, like, whenever the quote comes to, I paid as quickly as possible that I get the thing booked because the experience that the guests gain, I want people to have it. Oh, my gosh. I enjoyed the conversation, I enjoyed the atmosphere, I enjoyed the scenery. I enjoyed. And if they enjoy, I enjoy, the viewers enjoy. And it's a win, win, win. So that's. I could not agree when you said that. It just rang so many bells and made me want to throw up. And the awful decisions when I try to lowball and go cheap because it just was such a disaster.

A (25:44)

Sometimes you got to learn a lesson the hard way. No, I think the, you know, it is, it is important for anybody in business to realize what product they're actually selling, because it's like we're all, we're all selling one of one or more of three things. More money, more time, mitigated risk, right? It's, it's like literally, like. And what you just talked about was more time, you know, they were selling more time with that $25,000 upgrade, right? And, and maybe the gentleman who, or, or lady who sold that car to you didn't do a good job of explaining that that's what the, you know, what, what they were selling with that upgrade. So it's, you know, but that's, I think, an important part to how you communicate your offer, right, Is it's like, you don't have to, like, come right out and say this, hey, I'm selling you more money with this, you know, but, like, it is, you know, one of my favorite questions to ask at the beginning of a, of a sales call is, you know, hey, what's, what's our report card look like for this? Like, what are, what are the success metrics that we're tracking? And, you know, it's, it's funny how often they don't have an answer for that question. And then you get to, as a strategic partner, kind of help them come up with what metrics they need to be tracking for this. But, you know, usually in that answer, you identify pretty quickly. Okay, they're interested in making more money, or they're interested in saving time, or they're interested in lowering risk, you know, and then the rest of that conversation is just, it's just pointing at that one thing, right? It's like this, you know, and then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time and then we're going to do this, this, this, and that's going to save you more time, you know, so it's identifying which of those products your customer is actually buying, you know, tends, tends to do gangbusters in a sales setting.

B (27:33)

Love that. So now with those, there's somebody out there is freelancing. It's got a few customers lined up. They're a bit more plateauing. It's just very relaxed. Convenient.

A (27:45)

Yeah.

B (27:48)

What are those steps they should take right now in order to try and upscale to become a six, seven or eight figure business?

A (27:53)

Yeah, yeah. I've this, it's funny, this year I've had this conversation so many times with freelancers in the DMs that I've, I've, I've declared this plateau for freelancers. I call it the referral plateau. Right. And it's, I think, so many freelancers, when they hit that moment where it's like, okay, I'm financially secure, happy with the work I'm doing, but I have no idea how to grow beyond this, right? My, it's, it's, that's just why we, we laugh. It's like my next question I almost never have to ask, but I do for the hell of it. I say, well, how are you generating leads right now? And 100% of the, not even 99.9, 100% of the time the answer is, oh, I only get leads through referrals. I'm 100% referral, right? And that's why I've called it the referral plateau. Because what's happening is the freelancer's business has outgrown their network. So they've hit the point where they, you know, it's, we are in what got you here won't get you there territory, right? So it's like your, your network has done all it can do or ever will do for you. So if you're happy with, you know, the, the income that you're making now, if you're happy with the shape of your business right now, cool, keep at it. There's no notes, nothing new to do. You're just going to work off referrals for the rest of your career. But if you want to grow past that plateau, it's time to start doing some different things, right? It's time to, to activate social media. It's time to start doing some paid media campaigns. You know, it's time to, to maybe network with some hub and spoke clients, you know, for some strategic partnerships with complimentary freelancers or with, you know, clients that have clients, you know, look at some productized services, look at some digital products. It's, it's what we talked about earlier. You're diversifying your revenue pie. You know, that's, that's you're basically, you're looking for higher leverage opportunities where, you know, it's a referral is very one for one, you know, and you know, you can play that game and comfortably kind of get to a 10 to $15,000 a month business. But then you need to start looking at one for two opportunities or one for five opportunities, you know, bundles. Exactly. Higher, higher leverage opportunities. And you know, you go to social media for that, you go to paid media for that, and you go to hub and spoke clients with clients for that, you know, and maybe take a look at digital products or productized services.

B (30:28)

But you also think the mentality behind the fact that I'm not a big corporation, I'm just a freelancer. Do you think that has a big impact where they're like, you know what? I'm okay with about 20,000amonth, I'm okay with, you know, do you think that.

A (30:39)

Affects that for sure. I mean, the beauty of freelancing is it's choose your own adventure. Most of us are doing this because we love agency. We love that nobody tells us what to do, and we get to build the business that looks like what we want it to look like. So if you're happy at 20,000, cool, you did it. Just enjoy it. You're where you want to be. And maybe two years from now you're going to want to poke around and figure out how to get to 50, and then you'll have a couple levers to pull, you know. But yeah, I think that a lot of people, although I, you know, a lot of people. So that's the good side of that. But I think the bad side of that would be people that use this I'm just one person thing as a limiting factor, right? Where it's like, I want to be making 50 grand a month, but I'm just one person, you know, I can't do that. And that I think, you know, a decent portion of of my content exists to call bullshit on. Right. Because it is, I mean, it's not my original thought, but somebody mentioned it and I agree wholeheartedly. The first solopreneur billionaire has been born. Right. With all the tools that are available to us now, you know, with, with what you can do with AI today, you know, it's. There is, there is no excuse There is. So if you're finding yourself, you know, in that mindset, you know, you got to, you got to get real honest with yourself and call bullshit on it because, you know, it's, it has never, the opportunity has never been more abundant than it is today, and it will be even more abundant tomorrow. So it's just a matter of, you know, assessing what it is that you want to accomplish and then backing into that goal. Okay, so what does my behavior need to look like for the next six months for this to be my reality?

B (32:31)

And follow up on that. You've often emphasized on the importance of three pillars in terms of marketing, sales and fulfillment. Out of those three very crucial and important pillars, what do you think is the most misunderstood by freelancers and then why interesting.

A (32:51)

Most misunderstood by freelancers? I would say fulfillment.

B (32:57)

Okay.

A (32:59)

Because they think that fulfillment is doing the thing, which I'll give them a pass for that. Like that makes a lot of sense, you know, but, but really fulfillment is marketing and sales, right? So if you do all three, you know, it's an A plus. But if you just get fulfillment, right, it's still probably an A. You know, it's because if you do fulfillment right, your marketing and sales will take care of themselves, you know, you know, at least, you know, 80% of themselves. So fulfillment, I think, you know, when you really, when you, when you dissect kind of a real pros freelance business, I think a key differentiator is that they don't just do the thing. They take their clients on an emotional journey like that they've orchestrated, right? For instance, we know people remember the beginnings and the ends of things. It's just the way people are, right? We're in Hollywood. A good rule of thumb for a movie is if you nail the opening and you nail the ending and you have a shitty middle of the movie, people are going to still think it was a great movie because they'll remember how it started, they'll remember how it ended, right? Is the same with fulfillment where if in the first 24 hours you over deliver somehow, right? You really, you really, you know, elate them, you knock something out of the park for them, something that they didn't think they were going to get for another two weeks. You deliver it in 12 hours. They're like, holy, we made a great decision, right? And then you do the same at the end where it's like, okay, here's this thing that, you know, you paid for, but also I made this other thing that's the exact. That's just as much work. So you're getting twice as much as what you paid for it. Now, you know from the beginning that you were gonna do those two things, right? But you didn't mention it because you're designing an emotional journey where you're delighting them at the beginning and delighting them at the end, right? And so what you're trying to do with this fulfillment is effectively turn that person into a traveling salesman for your business, right? In addition to a repeat customer. So, you know, at the end, you want to take them by the hand and walk them to the next offer, where it's like, okay, we just finished this, but if you don't do this, this is only going to do 80% of what you hope it will. So let's come on over here and do this next, right? So it's like. It's like mapping out that customer journey. So if you do fulfillment, right, you've got repeat business. So it's, you know, it's compounding interest, essentially. It's, you know, all the work of acquiring one client. But you're going to get, you know, six or seven projects out of them, and you get a sales team, effectively, somebody who's happy to refer you to other people, somebody who's happy to broadcast to their network what an amazing collaborator you are. You knock fulfillment out of the park. Your sales and marketing are pretty much handled. And then from there, if you want to scale, you don't have to worry about the normal sales and marketing efforts that most freelancers do. You can just go all in on the more advanced stuff.

B (36:04)

That's. That's money. I. I love that. I love that a lot. Business does not come without shortcomings, lessons, painful, you know, occurrences that happen to us. What would you say personally for you? What's a painful failure, or rather a lesson that has occurred while you are a freelancer that ended up shaping how you run your business? Today.

A (36:36)

I would say probably I had one. I. This is probably year four or five into my career where I got a really big agency customer, you know, a client with a bunch of clients, and they became the entirety of my work. It was like, literally I had no time to do anything else. I was only working for. I was. I was a de facto employee for this agency because I didn't have any time to develop my own business. And it took me, like, two years to realize the risky position I had put my business in, right? Where it's like, okay, I'm not growing. I can't. I can't grow right now, and if. If this business fails, my business fails. Going back to this whole agency thing that we're talking about, it's. I was. I. It took me too long to realize, oh, I am. I am dedicating. I'm. I'm gifting them a lot of my agency, right? So it's like, I have to. I'm at their beck and call because if they, you know, if. If they fire me, if they're not happy with me, then I don't have income. I got to go figure this out. And so that, I think, was, you know, when I realized the spot I was in, that was a harrowing experience for me because I realized what needed to be done was I needed to substantially charge them. I needed to charge them substantially more so that I could hire help so that I could go run my business instead of be in their business. And, of course, many freelancers I've talked to found themselves in a similar position. So they all kind of, I think, understand, you know, what that means. It's like, okay, I have to raise my rates in a way that could possibly get them to part ways with me, in which case I'm out. I don't have any income. I can't pay rent. You know, and it's a rock and a hard place because you want to do what's right for your business, but, like, you also want to do what's right for paying rent and, you know, eating food. So, you know, it's. It took me a long time to work up the courage to go for it and, you know, or to, you know, hit send on the email. And I had this call scheduled with the CEO of this agency. The day came, and I remember I was standing for the call. I couldn't even sit down for the call. I'm standing in the room on the call sweating. And I kind of pled my case to her, you know, and there was kind of some initial pushback. She's like, well, we're bringing you a lot of work, and I don't understand why the price is going up instead of down. And. And I said, well, that's the thing is, you know, and I appealed to her as a fellow business owner. I just said, I. I can't. I can't grow my business right now. And, like, I really don't want this to be a deal breaker because I'm really enjoying working with you all. But. But, you know, with the current rates, you know, my business dies. So I gave the same spiel I just gave you. I was like, I'm in a rock and a hard place kind of moment here and, and I have to literally double my. Double the rate. Right. And maybe we can work something out to where, you know, or, you know, it's less money, but I do less to free me up more time. You know, I just laid it all out and you know, there was a brief pause and she goes, all right, yeah, it works. So just let me know if we need to send anything, you know, sign anything new. And I was thinking, I hung up the phone and after about a 32nd period of elation and a long exhale, I thought, how the much more money could I have if that. If after all of that she just said, yeah, sure, how much money are they making off of what I do for them? So it was a revelatory moment in more ways than one, but I would say that was it.

B (40:29)

Yeah, I'm glad you. Because the next question I was going to ask you, which was how do you like deal with those that essentially want a low ball, you know, your value, you don't want to lose customers by sticking to it. So how do you balance the fact that. Where you have to stand for the value that you offer, but with those that keep coming with low offers?

A (40:53)

Yeah, I mean, I.

B (40:54)

Whether it's new or whether it's existing client.

A (40:57)

Yeah, yeah, I would say, you know, let's take it like two different scenarios, like a new client coming through the door lowballing you. You know, approach that with an abundance mindset. There are like millions of new businesses formed every day, every year. A freelancer needs like nine of them to have a great career, you know, at nine a year. So it's like, I'd say the odds are in your favor. So, you know, maybe you. So I would pass on those opportunities, you know, you know, it's, it's just life short and it's gonna, it's gonna take a lot out of your, out of your business. Right. It's the, the reverse of the, the cheapest is often the most expensive. Same with, it's like the low ball clients are often the ones that you lose the most on. But you know, I, I would say, but then post game and see, okay, do I need to do something different with my marketing to get less of those people and more of these people that can actually afford me. But yeah, I never, I would never, you know, if, if you do, if you do need to make something work with that, that customer trying to keep it practical, because I know some people, it's just like, hey, I Got to pay rent. And this is what's coming through the door this month in that situation. Try to find a way to negotiate the scope, not your rate. So you know, if what you do, Ideally you're charging $5,000 for this client comes through and says we only set aside 1500 for this, you go, okay, get them on the same page about how, what that budget means to their success metrics and say, you know, this is, you're not going to find anybody who can get you this for 1500. So it's like, just want to make sure we're on the same page. But there is a fifteen hundred dollar version of this idea. Let's, let's find it together, right? And so again, strategic partner, you know, and you're negotiating the scope, not your fees. You're not saying, okay, yeah, I'll make it work for 1500. You're saying, okay, here's this big thing that we're going to shrink to this and do this for 1500. And then when we're ready for the $5,000 version, you come to me and we'll figure it out. But then the second scenario is a customer you've worked with in the past who comes at you and low balls you on something and that's a little more, a little more textured, but the same basic premise, right? Where it's negotiate the scope with them and, and try to find a way to set them up for the next project where it's like, okay, this budget that you have isn't right for your goals, you know, and by all means, if you can find someone who, who can knock it out of the park for this budget, send it my way. Because I'm going to subcontract them, you know, I'm going to add them to my team. But you know, as a strategic partner, like as somebody who wants to see you succeed, this ain't it. You know, here's something we can do with this money though, right? So it's like once, once a client is a client, think of them almost, you're almost like their co CEO. So it's like, you know, your job is to advise and to improve their business. And so if you're not, you know, if they're not making the right decision from a budgetary standpoint, you've got that trust with them, you know, because they already know that you can do that, you're interested in helping their business. So it's like take that opportunity to, to make a deposit on that trust bank and say, look, you're not going to get what you want for this money. Let's talk about some other things you can get for this money, right? And try to try to help them out that way.

B (44:18)

Now we mentioned 2027, majority of Americans are going to be freelancers. Where do you see the future of freelancing?

A (44:27)

Such an exciting question. I mean it's, it's, I think, and you know, this, this is big, but I, I think that we are very close to a reality where everybody has an llc, everybody is in business for themselves and a couple of those LLCs will get together and activate towards a common goal. And we'll call that a company, we'll call that a corporation. I think we're already seeing it happen. Most agencies that I know, most agency owners that I know are going to this model where it's entirely freelance, right? So that was the, I think that was kind of first blood drawn on this prediction of mine. This is years ago. A lot of agencies are going to an entirely freelance model. Where previously they had three floors of a building, now they have one and a bunch of freelancers all over the world, right? And that allows them to scale or to flex their team based on the size of an individual client's needs. Now here we are in 2025, a lot of companies are hiring fractional execs, right? So suddenly now the, the freaking CFO of a company is a freelancer, right? That's a fractional cfo, a fractional cmo. So now we're seeing this happen, kind of matriculate in the corporate world. I think. I, I, you know, in, in the very near future it's going to make its way into the restaurant industry, into retail, into like there's going to be a freelancer, you know, a freelance show floor specialist whose entire job is to work at a retail store and get somebody from the front door to the cash register in the most profitable manner possible. You know, and that, and that person's going to be courted by Gap and you know, and, and Gucci and like, I just think that there's this, everybody's kind of cluing into the fact that, you know, they don't, they, they don't have to hand their agency over to somebody to make money doing the thing that they're interested in doing. Like it's the, the promise is no longer there because it used to be you were trading, you were trading that agency for loyalty and security. And I don't think that that's the case anymore. And you know, we're seeing people are getting really frustrated with that, where they're going, well, why the hell am I interviewing through 12 rounds to get this job? You know, for them to then fire me, you know, a year and a half in because they didn't hit their quarterly goal. It's just like, it's not what it used to be. So why don't I just put that effort into building something for myself? You know, in the time it takes somebody, you know, to interview nine times for a job, they could have built a freelance business that made more income than the job. So I, you know, and it's, and it's not even like a hustle culture thing anymore. It's. It's. It's fascinating. I do think that, you know, there's a comfort level maybe that some people have with being told what they're responsible for each week. So that's something that, you know, that's probably a hump we need to get over. You know, a lot of people trade, you know, trade their agency and their freedom, or a little chunk of their agency, a little chunk of their freedom for that luxury of, you know, showing up to work and being told what to do rather than being on the hook for what you need to do that week to improve yourself, to improve your business. But, you know, like I said, like, it's getting easier and easier. I mean, it's. Knowledge is a commodity at this point. Like, if you, if you want to know the most valuable, you know, business advice you like, they're all online. Like, it's like all. All of, you know, all of our, like, wildly successful businessmen are all online talking about it. You know, you ask ChatGPT, it'll read every book on the. On the subject and tell you what you need to be doing. So it's just, yeah, it goes back to what we're saying. There's no, there's never been a simpler time to do it. And I think that's what the future is going to look like is, you know, maybe our. Maybe our grandkids or our great grandkids are going to say, wow, there was a time when people. People didn't work for themselves, you know.

B (48:35)

Episode of Black Mirror.

A (48:36)

Yeah, we're gonna say, yeah, yeah, they used to. They used to go in and do whatever somebody told them to do. Wow, that's wild.

B (48:42)

Wow. Yeah, I love that. I love that. As we conclude, we always ask our guests what the definition is for winning for them as well, because code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow for you. Jamie, what does the term winning mean for you?

A (48:59)

Oh, gosh. I mean, I think it means. I would say being able to wake up in the morning and do whatever the hell it is you want to do. Agency, right? It's, it's being able to, you know, it's, it's, it's earning yourself the ability to move through this world how you deem you want to move through this world. So whatever, whatever, you know, whatever it takes to get to that stage of a career, I think is what I would define as winning. But that's a personal definition and I think that's the beauty of this, is that everybody gets to define it for themselves. So it's fun to see when you get a bunch of freelancers together in a room or just have a one on one like this. It's fun to see what everybody has to say about it. But I would say that's it. It's having the agency to do, you know, to live the way you, you want to live.

B (50:07)

Jamie, if you could look at the camera, let the viewers know if they want to get a hold of you, if they want to get your course, how to get in contact with you, your Instagram handle and so forth as well.

A (50:18)

Yeah. Hi, guys. Follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn and shoot me a DM there. That's probably the quickest, the quickest way to get to me and then. Yeah, let's just. If you can't tell, I enjoy chatting about this stuff, so. So shoot me a DM and let me know what you're up against in maybe these next 12 weeks. And I'd love to chat with you and strategize a little bit. So I'll see you on. On social media.

B (50:41)

The code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. If you want to learn about the business of freelancing and learn about freelancing, this is the episode for you. Jamie's information will be in the description section. So without further ado, the man, the myth, the legend, Jamie Brindle. Thank you very much, sir.

A (50:58)

Thanks, man.