Support Systems: The Backbone of Recovery

Summary

The Collage Podcast

Episode: Support Systems: The Backbone of Recovery

Host: Feed My Sheep

Guest: Nancy

Date: March 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complexities of helping others in their recovery journey, examining how support systems act as the backbone of true healing. Using the biblical story of Naaman and his experience with leprosy as a metaphor, the conversation explores the nuances of offering and receiving help, how expectations and trauma shape responses, and the vital but often overlooked role of community support. The episode also challenges service providers to consider whether their efforts genuinely foster healing or merely perpetuate the status quo.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Problem of Help and Healing

Timestamps: 00:52–03:05

• The host introduces the ongoing discussion about how help is offered, received, and sometimes rejected if it doesn't match expectations.
• Revisits a previous episode with Brian Hawkins: “We can only help someone as much as they want to be helped.” (Nancy, 07:45)
• The conversation will use the story of Naaman from 2 Kings 5 as a metaphor for modern recovery and support systems.

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2. Naaman’s Story: Expectations vs. Reality

Timestamps: 03:05–08:37

• Nancy recounts the story of Naaman, a respected military leader with leprosy, who seeks healing from the prophet Elisha.
• Naaman expects a grand gesture but is offered a simple solution—washing in the Jordan River seven times—which offends him.
• ”He wanted help, but in a certain way...he didn’t feel like it was being delivered in the way that he wanted it.” (Nancy, 07:55)
• Key insight: “Sometimes the answer is so simple that it almost seems too simple.” (Nancy, 06:30)

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3. Modern Parallels: Barriers to Receiving Help

Timestamps: 08:28–15:14

• Discussion connects the biblical narrative to real-life experiences at Feed My Sheep, highlighting how people seeking help often leave when initial interactions aren’t what they expect.
• Example: Clients upset about only speaking with a receptionist, not the “big boss,” and subsequently storming out, walking away from potential help.
• “They were so close, but they just leave…that's how a lot of stories end here.” (Host, 13:50)
• Emotional trauma and repeated rejection fuel sensitivity and defensive responses to help offered.

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4. Pride, Trauma, and Support System Dynamics

Timestamps: 15:15–25:37

• Analysis of Naaman’s prideful, trauma-informed reaction, drawing parallels with people who are “super sensitive” from repeated social rejection.
• “He is so accustomed to being turned away.” (Host, 16:16)
• Emphasizes that providers should not rescind offers of help after a poor initial response.
• “The true healing offered did not get taken off the table because of his initial poor response.” (Host, 21:33)

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5. The Critical Role of Support Systems

Timestamps: 24:34–32:23

• Key moment: Naaman’s support system—his friends—convince him to accept the simple solution, providing the push he couldn’t muster alone.
• “Somebody just needed to help him for a second to get out of his own way.” (Nancy, 29:30)
• Lack of support often leads to people abandoning help and “storming out,” with no one to encourage a different perspective.
• “So many times, people will get upset at different junctures, and then guess what? There is no support system for them to fall back on.” (Host, 32:16)

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6. Complicating Factors: Damaging Peer Influence or Broken Support

Timestamps: 35:19–38:08

• Reflection on how support systems might undermine healing—sometimes friends or peers give advice from their own dysfunction, functioning as a negative or enabling influence.
• “They’re giving advice ... from a broken place that doesn’t lead to positive change.” (Nancy, 37:49)
• Recognizing the complexity of participating in another’s recovery—simple solutions aren’t always easy in practice.

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7. Agency, Dignity, and the Limits of Help

Timestamps: 46:03–54:43

• Affirmation of personal agency: individuals have the right to refuse help, even when it’s in their best interest.
• “He is now in charge of his own life as he should be. We all are.” (Host, 46:51)
• Providing ongoing hope and options without enabling continued sickness: “Healing is still right there. Love to help you go to the river. I’m not the river, but I'd love to walk with you there.” (Host, 55:04)

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8. Implications for Service Providers and Systems

Timestamps: 48:58–52:14

• Commentary on how broader systems may inadvertently benefit from people remaining “sick” or dependent.
• “If you’re in the leper business, you ain’t got a customer anymore (if healed).” (Host, 49:43)
• Service models should aim for true healing, not just managing symptoms or sustaining participation.
• “We should all as service agencies be all about going out of business.” (Nancy, 50:04)
• Reiterate: agencies act best as companions along the healing journey, not as “miracle workers.”

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9. Closing Reflections: Keeping Healing on the Table

Timestamps: 54:43–end

• The offer of healing—practical, emotional, spiritual—should never be taken off the table, nor should it be forced.
• “We had to be a support system that would encourage him... But at the end of the day, I can't jump in the river for him.” (Host, 59:55)
• Success is leading people to real healing, not simply supporting them in stagnation or sickness.
• Call for dignity and respect for choices, even when they lead to disappointing outcomes, but always with the door to healing open.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[We] can only help someone as much as they want to be helped.” (Nancy, 07:45)
• “He wanted help, but in a certain way...he didn’t feel like it was being delivered in the way that he wanted it.” (Nancy, 07:55)
• “He is so accustomed to being turned away.” (Host, 16:16)
• “Somebody just needed to help him for a second to get out of his own way.” (Nancy, 29:30)
• “So many times, people will get upset at different junctures, and then guess what? There is no support system for them to fall back on.” (Host, 32:16)
• “They’re giving advice ... from a broken place that doesn’t lead to positive change.” (Nancy, 37:49)
• “We should all as service agencies be all about going out of business.” (Nancy, 50:04)
• “Healing is still right there. Love to help you go to the river. I’m not the river, but I'd love to walk with you there.” (Host, 55:04)
• “We had to be a support system that would encourage him... But at the end of the day, I can't jump in the river for him.” (Host, 59:55)

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Segment Timestamps Overview

• Biblical Story Introduction & Reading: 03:05–07:50
• Application to Modern Help-Seeking: 13:50–17:00
• Prideful & Trauma-Informed Reactions: 15:14–21:34
• Role of Support Systems: 24:34–32:23
• Broken or Enabling Support Structures: 35:19–38:08
• Individual Agency and Support: 46:03–54:43
• Systems and True Healing: 48:58–52:14
• Closing Summary & Takeaways: 54:43–end

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode maintains a candid, conversational, and compassionate tone, mixing personal anecdotes and practical examples with spiritual insights. The hosts offer deep empathy for people struggling with trauma, addiction, or homelessness while challenging listeners—and themselves—to always keep healing and dignity at the center of their work.

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Summary Takeaway

Support systems—genuine, healthy relationships—are essential for recovery and restoration. Providers and communities must strike a careful balance: offering consistent, dignified support and hope for healing without enabling stagnation, always empowering the individual as the agent of their own change. The real challenge is not only to keep help on the table, but to create environments where true transformation is possible, always anchored in respect and hope.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hey, we want to welcome everybody to another edition of the collage podcast today. Hope you are having a great day. It is good to be here today. We have got Nancy in here and we are going to have a. We're just going to get straight into it. I'm not in the mood to play around today. So, like, we are just going to go straight into it. So first off, Nancy, how are you today?

[B]

I'm great.

[A]

Blah, blah, blah.

[B]

How are you, Jeff?

[A]

Oh, thank you for asking.

[B]

I'm very wonderful.

[A]

Okay, so. So we're going to actually get into it. So the discussion we're going to have today, it's going to start at a biblical story that Nancy has brought forth and she wants to go this direction. And then we're looking at today a little bit of a continuation of what we've been talking about. Like sort of. We look back and whether you heard it or not doesn't matter. We're looking back at Brian and some of the discussions we had there about really the business we are in is. Hold on. Nancy's got something to do here.

[B]

No, I'm looking up the scripture so that I can read it to people because they may not be familiar with the story.

[A]

They're not familiar with the story. I promise you that, because it's in the Old Testament. Well, no offense if you are, but we're going to look at how help looks and kind of along the lines. What Brian Hawkins brought up is how sometimes we think help should look a certain way and then go along the lines of we're really dealing in a world of limited resource. And then if you're trying to pour help where it is not wanted, or they do not believe it is needed, or it is not in the form that they desire, that you're spinning your wheels. So that's kind of the topic that we're going to get at today. You can kind of see that we are not in a rut. But these are complicated deals. There's a huge topics to discuss in so many different levels about helping others and what does it look like and does there come a point in time that you're like, I'm not helping anymore? Okay, so give us, Nancy, the biblical principle that we are starting with and where we're going from. From here. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so the story that we're pondering Today is from Second Kings, chapter 5, verses 1 through 15, and I'll just read it real quick. Now, Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man. In the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy. Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel. She served Naaman's wife. She said to her mistress, if only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria, he would cure him of his leprosy. Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. By all means go. The king of Aram replied, I will send a letter to the king of Israel. So Naaman left, taking with him 10 talents of silver, 6,000 shekels of gold, and 10 sets of clothing. The letter that he took to the king of Israel read, with this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy. As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See, now he is trying to pick a quarrel with me. When Elisha, the man of God, heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent this message, why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me, and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel. So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha's house. Elisheva. Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, go wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be cleansed. But Naaman went away angry and said, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord, his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Farper the rivers of Damascus better than all of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed? So he turned and went off in a rage. Naaman's servants went to him and said, my father, if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he tells you, wash and be cleansed? So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. Then Naaman and all of his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept a gift from your servant. So from that, I think we can pull several things to ponder. Okay, first of all, the. The fact that he got mad when Alicia didn't come out and talk to him. Like, he, he showed up and he was expecting things to happen in a certain way, and it didn't happen that way. He was just sent a message by some other guy. Didn't even have the. The, I guess, the honor of having someone actually come and talk to him. But he's. He got this message to go and do this simple t. And it didn't meet with his expectations of what he thought was going to cure him. Right. So I think for us, when we look at something like that, we. There. The. The answer is some sometimes so simple that it almost seems too simple. So was listening to the podcast with you and Brian Hawkins that y' all did, which was released yesterday, which is really great. And if the people who are listening to this haven't listened to that one, you need to go back and listen to it and then listen to this one. But one of the things that Brian was saying was that we can only help someone as much as they want to be helped.

[A]

Okay, let's remember that sentence. Okay, I like that one. Okay, I'm listening.

[B]

And we can't force them to accept help unless they agree with the way that the help is being delivered. Okay, so with. With this story that, that I just read, he wanted help, but in a certain way he was going to be angry and leave and not accept the help that was offered to him because he didn't feel like it was being delivered in the right. In the way that he. He wanted it.

[A]

And why did he stay?

[B]

Other people convinced him to just give it a try, just try it out.

[A]

So him, like. So let's say we're going to put this in. Let's get it caught up. Because, like, in modern terms, because there's going to be. There's names in there that we're like, I don't understand what name she just said Naaman. I'm like, I don't know anybody by the name of Naaman. So. And he had a disease, leprosy. We don't even really know leprosy in our world anymore. It is still around some, but it's not a disease that we would know as well, so that we would backpedal just a hair to catch everybody up. So leprosy in that time, if you had it in that culture and that Time. Good disease, bad disease. And what was it? Bad.

[B]

You were an outcast. You could not be a part of the community.

[A]

That's right. Physical contact with other human beings did not occur. Okay. You were out on your own. It was bad. And it is to. We're not medical doctors here, but it was a disease that eats your flesh in a very bad way.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. So it was a.

[B]

You couldn't hide it.

[A]

You could. You can't hide it. I mean, so this is an ailment that everybody knew you're outcast from society. And now this one, he had the benefit, evidently, was a brilliant military mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, so he had this gift that he was able to win all kind of battles. So he was getting a little bit extra favor than most of your common lepers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're not. So this guy had a little bit more. Won a bunch of battles, got this king a whole lot of. Cut a whole lot of stick in that community. And so the king's like, hey, man, I'd like to figure out way to help this dude, because then I can be even more. Because he. So he goes, and he's now has found out this is the way that you can get help, that you can be cured from this thing. Pretty simple. Okay. So this ailment, it seems to me on this side, pretty simple. This guy's like, I got this horrible thing. What have I got to lose? I'm going to go. So he goes to this one. And first he goes. And what happens?

[B]

Well, he. He's immediately disappointed in the way that he was greeted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that. That the first interaction wasn't up to his standards.

[A]

Okay. Why do you think that was? And was it? It's a. Then there's a question. Okay, so first thing, and we can't suppose to be him first is in this. He did not like how he was treated at first.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Fair or unfair?

[B]

I mean, I think it was unfair just because.

[A]

On his side or from the person on his side. Okay, got it.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think, as you mentioned back then, leprosy was, you know, you were unclean if you had leprosy. So for a prophet to show himself or to come around this person that had leprosy would have made him unclean and unable to, you know, do anything else in his job, essentially. So for the man to think, you know, Alicia should have come and talked to me, I feel was unfair and selfish of him not to think about the risk factors for the person that was trying to help him.

[A]

Ah, okay. So ready we're going to. We're going to pause at that place here and we're going to catch up to here. Okay. I would say on this side of it here, I can't even tell you how many stories in the last two years. Let's just say two years, three, five, ten, whatever. Just say two. I couldn't even tell you the number of stories that ended here for people that were seeking help. They came because somebody had said, hey, you ought to go to the resource center or you ought to go to this place. They possibly could help. We can't cure leprosy. Okay, but ready? Here's how the stories end. They did not like their initial interaction and they think, and they felt that they possibly were disrespected, that they couldn't even speak to the one that really could help them. And they storm out and leave. Yeah, they storm out and leave. They're so close. But in, in it, we would go in our stories here. It's just simply a business model per se. They came to the front desk and they said, hey, I'm here to get help. And it's the receptionist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. That's plenty respectable. Okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay. They want to speak to the big boss person. Big, big boss person, whoever that is. They say to them, I'm sorry, but you're not going to be able to see them today, but I'll be glad to help you. And they leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it selfish or can you understand why they did it? Is it both?

[B]

I think it depends on the circumstances for each individual interaction. On. On one level, like, I. I would say if the person were like, I've seen some that have come up here to feed my sheep that have been visibly in trauma, like in the midst of some sort of major problem. And you can tell by the tears or just their demeanor. I mean, you can tell when someone is under an extreme amount of stress. If someone were to come like that and visibly, you know, in a crisis situation and were turned away, or we're told we're going to have to take your name and number and have someone call you back, I could see how that would be taken.

[A]

As

[B]

I have. I had hope and now I don't have hope. So it's more of like the. The elimination of a hopeful outcome. And now I just don't have any hope versus the, like in the story today. It just being more of a. A matter of pride of, you know, who do you think you are? You are telling me I can't Talk to you. I can't talk to Jeff. I. I deserve to be talked to. You know, I would see that as being a different. A different side of it.

[A]

Interesting. Okay. I would say so. Like in. In both. Okay. Why do you think the leper might have been so sensitive to that?

[B]

He's been shunned by so many people in the past. Yeah.

[A]

So super sensitive.

[B]

Yeah, super sensitive.

[A]

Because he is so accustomed to what?

[B]

Being turned away.

[A]

Being turned away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Super sensitive to it. Can't. We could look at it and go, it shouldn't have been. Yeah, shouldn't have been. But then we could also step away from the picture slightly and to go, well, of course she's going to be. Every interaction that turns this way quickly is going to be like, oh, what the f. Yeah. Yeah. I traveled all this way with all this stuff and yet another one that ain't even going to come out and step out and see me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then him, he could probably not rightfully so Maybe you could fall into the place of justifiably. So go. Forget it. I don't even want their help. I just assume live with leprosy than have to deal with somebody who doesn't even really care about me and wants to help.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wrong.

[B]

Prideful.

[A]

Prideful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Prideful. And to look at that. And then you'd go, okay. But you could see possibly what's the real issue that that guy at that moment is lifetime of separation from community and true hurt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Could he understand that? Probably not. Yeah, probably not. But you could see possibly so sensitive to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now out of it. What I find interesting in this story at this juncture is that guy did everything possibly he did go to help. That's right. Okay. But in the process, at this juncture of receiving help. So I'm going to ask a question, and Brian, you listen to this too, okay. Because I'm just devil's advocate or I'm not whatever. Because we're not devil on the. So I'm putting another side to it. He did everything possible at this juncture to say we are talking about limited resources that you have to give.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He turned them away. Okay. Did he then deserve to still be treated with this limited resource even though he did not want it? Yes.

[B]

Because he. The. The offer was there. So I look at it from the standpoint of, like, with us, we have resources that are available. We can offer them up to somebody and they can initially refuse and then they can change their mind and the resource is still there.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

It's Not a, you have to put it out today or that's it. In fact, I feel like we do a really good job of. And I think in. I think you've used the words pursue people, which I think is always beautiful thing. I think it's a beautiful thing. And as you've said before, the. For a lot of our people, they've never been pursued. No one has ever gone after them and has shown them that they're loved and important enough for us to take our time to go find them and go meet them and continue to offer.

[A]

So then we would say in this story, the guy wants healing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The fact that he has traveled across travel was dangerous at that time. The fact that he traveled to the place that could provide healing would be indication that he is decently serious about wanting healing.

[B]

Very motivated.

[A]

Very motivated.

[B]

Brought all the gifts and all the things.

[A]

All this stuff. He's packed it. Okay. And he goes. His initial response, not so positive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So we had acknowledged that. And then we could even come to the place of going. Crud. I could possibly see why he might have answered that way initially.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's answering out of hurt, answering out of trauma.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. And so it would have been then, we could say, unfair for the person that is delivering the help at this juncture to say the sentence, well, forget you. I was going to offer help to you, and then you're going to be rude to me. So since you're rude to me, I will not. I'm taking back the offer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Offers now off the table. So, Nancy, you came here for healing. I offered you the way to be healing, but you didn't like me coming to you. You wanted something more important. So guess what? I'm going to show you. I'm not going to offer healing. That'd be wrong. So we would say the healing, the true healing offered did not get taken off the table because of his initial poor response to it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Still on the table. His true healing now in it. Okay, so then let's look. It did not say, hey, you know what? This is the healing you want, but you really don't want that. I'm going to give you a T shirt instead or I'm going to give you a sandwich instead. You know, hey, you came here. I know you wanted this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But instead I'm going to give you a sandwich and even a bottle of water.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm going to give it to you where you're at. You know, here you go. Here you go. Go on your way. That wasn't the offer, was it? Because that wasn't healing.

[B]

No. And I would say with this story, the, the deeper symbolism is God giving us healing.

[A]

Well, agreed, agreed.

[B]

So in that context, if, if we are thinking, you know, I have this one shot and if I don't take it, God's not going to extend forgiveness or healing to me.

[A]

Okay. Fair.

[B]

Or I don't deserve full healing and full restoration. So God's going to just give me a little bit. A little.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

He's just going to get me through this hour, you know, maybe give me a little comfort. But ultimate long term healing. I know I don't.

[A]

I deserve this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I blew my watch.

[B]

I made my choices, I got to deal with the consequences. And that's it for God. He's not going to heal me.

[A]

Okay. And then in it, let's get something clear. We're, we're complete understanding in this story that even the only true healing and restoration comes through God.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. There is not a person. There is. Feed my sheep. Nobody's going to come through our doors today. And I am the miracle worker. You are the miracle worker or Gina.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We're not. We have access to some resources that we can provide to people. True healing only comes to one place.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Healing and restoration does not get taken off the table from God because of our initial reaction and response to it. Correct?

[B]

Thankfully.

[A]

Thankfully, no. Okay, so we're going to come to that place that I. Sometimes we won't go straight to the theological. We're just still looking at the business side. But too many times, God says, you know what, this is how, Jeff, you could go get true healing and restoration. And I go. And I'm like. And forget that. I went all the way over here and this is what I'm going to get. You're going to tell me I just got to jump in a river seven times. If I. It was that simple, I'd have done it long time ago. Bull only. Yeah, I'm out of here. This is dumb. I've seen way better rivers over here than this one. They're telling me to jump in. That's a little chumpy deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, nah. Okay, so then let's get to the second. Maybe this is the third part of that story. Okay. If I look at the story, key heroes in the story is what happens next. Okay. He says, forget it, I'm out of here. And what happens?

[B]

His friends come around him and say, okay, let's just give it a try.

[A]

Yeah. His friends Come around the people. So he has his people that were with him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. They say, hold on. I mean, we don't know the exact quotes, but we're going to put it in modern terms. Hold on a second. Let's think about this. What's it going to hurt? You know what, I know you're tired of being sick. I know you're this. I know you think it should look differently. Why not give it a try? We came all this way. Why not?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And these are people. So then in this, again, the context of what could we learn from this? They're people. Okay. So in it, the initial person that presented the help. Okay. How long had this person known that person?

[B]

It infers. Not very long.

[A]

In infers. So we are going to jump.

[B]

Not very long.

[A]

No. They just met.

[B]

Yeah. Little. Little kid.

[A]

Okay. Just met.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, I don't even know this person. This is. And it's a. On the hierarchy. I know the hierarchy chart of what I'm supposed to see here. This one ain't even anything on it. And I don't even know them. And they're going to say, I'm supposed to do this. And what is our response? No, because they have not earned the right to present something truly that he didn't understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't have the placeholder yet in their relationship. Social structure, order. He did not have that place yet. He had the right answer, but he did not have the place to truly do this. So what does he do? Okay. He turns to those and those that cared about him that did have the placeholder, and they're like, hey, are you sure?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You sure you want to give this up? Okay. And then we can imagine that. And they care. And they are outside the picture. They don't have leprosy, probably.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they're able to look at this and go, hey, think about it for just a second. What if this guy's not telling you a lie? Yeah.

[B]

What if this will really work?

[A]

What if this really would work? Think of how much more differently your life could be if this is really what they say it is. Is. And at the end of the day for him, okay, worst thing. The worst thing that possibly could have happened. Well, okay, you might. Could have a worst thing. And you could go, what is the worst thing that possibly could have happened for Naaman? If he does what the person says to do and it didn't work out,

[B]

he'd be in the exact same spot he's currently in. No harm, no foul.

[A]

Possibly. I mean, I Would agree with that. I would have given you. Not that I'm giving anything. I would. Given you that possibly he would have been in a worse spot and that he would have lost hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would. I would give you that. And going, okay. Yep. Then now he's in the same scenario and he's hopeless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then we could probably go around in this round and round circle about he was probably hopeless before he went to the place that he believed was hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he's no different than he was before. He was hopeless before and he's hopeless after. That's all that could come out. But it could work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And the person that told him had no reason to lie.

[B]

Yeah. He just needed to get out of his own way.

[A]

Okay, Agreed. So in it, he rightfully. Possibly so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was responding out of years and years of hurt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Can't. Can't be angry with him at that. Wish it wasn't so. But you just said the sentence. You know what? Somebody just needed to help him for a second to get out of his own way for a bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So like yesterday, for example, here I got mad. Okay. A whole other deal. Okay. So I was upset about one incident. It wasn't even an incident. I was upset about something. And so out of response to that, I said, well, I'm not going to that meeting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Which I had every right to because I was. I was mad about the presentation of this. And I'm like, that's baloney. This is not how it should be. And then out of response to that, I said, oh, and then also on this next bigger meeting that I'm supposed to have on Wednesday, I'm not going to that one either. Mm, forget it. I'm done with it. I don't have any time for this. I'm not going to do this. I'm mad. Okay. So out of that, I. Okay, you and I talked and what did you say?

[B]

You need to go to the meeting.

[A]

Step. Step away from yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is not going to be good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you don't think about all the damage that you could do, basically step away from yourself for a second. Calm down. I understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What'd you say? Did you say you're wrong?

[B]

No.

[A]

Did they sell him? You're wrong. No. Hey, let's calm down for a second. Let's look at this. Okay. So then out of that, his friends interjected, okay, so again, I would say in so much of what we deal with here, modern day, we're. Now we're back in Modern day.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So many of the people that we come in contact with, I think much of the gap that occurs is the support system. So we would say possibly on that those that were around him, that traveled with him, that was his support system. These are people that probably were accustomed to being with him. They probably went to battle with him. These are the ones. This is the person who helped take care of his horses. This is the person who did this. This is his group, right. His support, his community. Okay. So in it, I would tell you, in our world right here at Feed My Sheep, so many times people will get upset at different junctures early in the deal. Okay. And then guess what? There is no support system for them to fall back on that says, hey, step out of yourself for just a second. They're left to their own devices and they storm out and they're gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the person who gave them the news is going, I don't understand. Why would they be that dumb? They just stormed out of here. And I gave them the answer they came to get.

[B]

Yeah. Or worse than that. Like we set them up in housing, they had an apartment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So they were doing well. And they have just self. Can still like, what is it?

[A]

Self destruct.

[B]

That's it. That's the word.

[A]

Okay. So then in it. So then we would take it a step further. Okay. So then we were looking at, you know, people have a right to make choices.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Totally, totally not taking that off the books. Also acknowledge people are apt to make poor choices on their complete own.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so then the question is, in this story, the easy ones. Easy ones is easy. Naaman wanted to be healed. He had to go to this place because God was going to heal him here according to how he wanted to do it. Yes. Easy. Acknowledge that. Okay. Easy over here. And here's what you got to do. This person, pretty easy. All you got to do is just going to go in the river. You do it seven times, you're going to be healed. Pretty simple.

[B]

Simple solution.

[A]

Pretty simple. You would like to believe that that person wouldn't have gone to the river and gone like three times in it, maybe four. And like, ah, this doesn't even work.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

okay. Doesn't even work. Forget it. I knew it was a stupid idea. Shouldn't even come to the river. So now we even go to the river. We go here. So then we go up to here. And so then we would say, well, that person has every right to only jump in the river four times. Okay. We'd also say Naaman had every right to not agree to follow through and go back. But support system did not allow it to be so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Still Naaman had to go to the river. Still he had to go get in the river. But his friends said, hey, come on. Support system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So mine where we're going to tie. Like. So what we were discussing earlier. So much falls apart because the support system surrounding the people is not there.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or the support system is there and the person chooses not to engage with them.

[A]

Or. Ready. Let's put scenario three. What if Naaman's friends really didn't have his best interest at heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were more concerned about their own afflictions and are sort of hurt of why they're not receiving healing. So then their motivating factor is not. I really care about Naaman getting well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to advise him. Well, they are advising what's best for me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they tell him now you're right, dog. Let's take that. Let's take that 60 shackles of gold that you got or whatever it was a hunt. It's whatever the race. Let's take that and let's go on into town. Forget it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're just fine. Okay. Because we don't really. At the end of the day that person. We don't really want him healed. Because what if he is healed? Does he need me anymore?

[B]

Right.

[A]

What if he's healed? Okay. And then motivation. So the friends are not advising purely with no intention other than that'd be awesome. If he's healed. They're going, oh crud. I really don't want him healed.

[B]

Yeah. Or. And I, I think with our people here, I see more often than not that they're getting advice from people that have not. They haven't developed their own coping mechanisms or their own healthy way of sort of navigating life's ups and downs. And they're trying to advise others when they really don't have a place from within themselves that they can. They can pull that knowledge from. So they're giving advice and what they feel is guidance to each other. But it's from a broken place that doesn't lead to positive change. It leads to the same situation or worse.

[A]

Okay. So can we see how truly complicated and complex this topic of moving to. To true healing and restoration is?

[B]

100%. Yeah.

[A]

He had his own mind of what it looked like we had one. Okay. And like Brian said for us, I know, like it's easy to have complete certainty of what needs to Occur in certain circumstances. It doesn't even look complicated.

[B]

Yeah. Hey, it's pretty simple.

[A]

Pretty simple. Okay. Pretty simple.

[B]

Put someone in a house or let's

[A]

even take a step further back on that one. Pretty simple. You know what? Shooting up meth is not really moving you forward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is actually keeping you isolated. It's actually making you physically ill. It's actually making you mentally ill. It's actually keeping you here. It's pretty simple to look at that one and go, you got to stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like here's. Here's what it is if you want healing. Okay. So ready, so then that's. So this one we're going to. Now we're caught up here. Main in the Old Testament. So it's pretty simple. You can look at that. Okay. So let's just. I won't even mention there's a guy or a girl. I don't even. Doesn't even matter. Okay. It doesn't even matter. The name. I know the name. I'm not going to say it. Whatever. Been in and out in jail. I mean, there'd been in jail more times in the last six months than out of jail for little petty stuff. Terrible, terrible life path that we're going down. Okay. Outside on the streets with no option and bad, bad addiction issues. Right now. They would disagree. They would say, I'm not an addict, I'm just a user.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't really know what that term means. Okay. But so in it, they came yesterday because they just got out of jail. Okay. Want to get clean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now they were high at the moment, which is probably not maybe the biggest indicator that I really want to get clean. But. Okay. So we went through the steps. Okay. Not and hoping it's true. I mean, because like, yes, I would say the fact that you are high right now would be an indicator that you do need to get sober.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So I'm not arguing that went down that. And they said. Came to one question. One of the rehabs you need to. There's work involved. You're going to have to get a job that we will help get to whatever level that you can do. But you're gonna. You're gonna be expected to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nah, I don't want a job. I'm not gonna work 40 hours a week. Heck no. Different word that it was used. Nah, I ain't doing that. And you're like so simple. It's so simple. And nothing else can occur until you're ready to jump into the river.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So then you Come back to the offer. Okay. So I would say this. Okay, so then we make this circle back here. The offer he came in today. Guess what? Still going to try.

[B]

Stands. Yeah, sure.

[A]

It's only hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can't go on to any other stuff until we can get that taken care of. And it is so simple to see from the outside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't really understand all the factors that are going into the addiction and the struggle and the things I don't claim that I do see. I mean, like in this one, like, Naaman's friends are probably like, dude, you got leprosy. You want to get rid of leprosy or not?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you do jump in the river. You don't. Okay. Then you're a leper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's not your identity. That's not how you were created. Okay. I believe biologically, you are not born with leprosy. It is something you contract in the world. So it's not like you can go. If I'm born with two fingers instead of five, that's how I was born. Okay. That is biological. Nothing wrong with that. I'm saying. And we won't go down that path, but here you can look. He caught something. It's an addiction. It is something he contracted. And you look and you go, doggone it. And then he or she walked off. And guess what? Found two or three friends and they pulled their money together and guess what they went and did, I'm sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

His friends didn't say, hey, you really should go. That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

They don't want them to.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. For whatever reason, move on to a better, better place without them. Leave them.

[A]

Okay, so let me ask you this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The General. Let's pretend we know the story. He does go in the river. He does get restoration. His skin, it says, was softer than a child's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Complete healing. He would have been a miracle. We know that occurs. So let's just pretend he does not take that step. His friends do not. He made the choice. He said, I ain't doing it. Gone. Friends don't talk him into it. Friends say like, hey, yeah, let's go, let's go. And they go, okay, now, hard question. Offer still on the table. The offer is still over here of this is what healing and restoration must be before anything else can be correct.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Do I help him? If I say, hey, I got a tent that you can stay in, in the leper colony outside of the community, does that help him?

[B]

No.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I think it really Comes down to. Giving them, like Brian said, the dignity of making the decision themselves.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So he's decided on his own that he's not going to accept this.

[A]

And he had every right to do that. Correct?

[B]

Every right.

[A]

Every right.

[B]

It was a decision that he made. I'm assuming that he is of right mind, that he's not mentally ill, not fair. Or having any sort of developmental disabilities that would prevent him from making a good decision. Let's assume that that's not the case, that he is of right mind and can make his own decisions. Then I say he makes his own decisions and he figures out what his own next steps are going to be. That the. That the dignity of that. Of that process is his. He needs to take ownership of all of it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And all that comes with here on out. Yep.

[A]

Until he's so in that. So you would say. And he has every right to. He is now in charge of his own life as he should be. We all are. Okay. Now with it. We would say probably doesn't benefit him. Just because I'm really regretting the fact that he didn't really want healing. And I feel bad about that. And I'm like, hey, here's a tent for you. Probably not. No, that's going. Hey. At the end of the day, I'm saying you really made a bad decision, but I'm going to keep you here until you can somehow make the right decision. Maybe. I don't know. And so then in it, you'd go, okay.

[B]

It also would send the signal that you don't believe that he can fend for himself, that he's got the ability to take care of himself, and therefore you have to take care of him. Like, that's the signal that it sends, that he is fully dependent on you to be his hero and his savior. And because of that, because of his dependence on you, you're gonna make sure that he has a tent and that he's got a place to stay in the leper colony. Leper colony is probably a bad analogy for it, but it's sending that signal that you have already determined that he's incapable of doing this on his own. So therefore, you have to do it

[A]

because he made a poor decision.

[B]

Yeah. And you're looking at it from the other direction. Like, if you were to say, you know what? You're a man. You're a grown man, and I respect your decision. This is your life, and you can. You're free to live it however you see fit, but always will. Yes, you will. I'LL be praying for you. Doors open.

[A]

That's right. Always.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Healing is still right there.

[B]

Yeah. And then you let him leave and you let him go make his own decisions, make his own choices, you know, make his own mistakes and deal with the consequences. And then ultimately I, I believe God will lead him to the, the place of restoration and healing if that's what he wants.

[A]

Okay. So in it. Interesting, because we won't like we could go about another five hours on this. We're not if you're listening to this, so don't worry about that. Okay. The whole system that we kind of deal with, not just necessarily here, ain't that way.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

It is not that way.

[B]

No. But it needs to be.

[A]

Okay. There's a sentence if you notice. Why do we keep coming back to it is not that way?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Matter of fact, if I was looking at the system, we're talking system like big, big, big picture, big picture, big picture. Not individual, but even system set up to not really want people to make true life changing deal. Because like Naaman, guess what? If you're in the leper business, you ain't got a customer anymore.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

He's healed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the business model unfortunately can possibly be set up big system wise to keep lepers to being lepers.

[B]

We should all as service agencies be, be all about going out of business.

[A]

Agreed. And healing and restoration. And then we would understand our role in this whole story.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't mean to sound angry. I'm not angry. Our role in that story is yes, we can be sensitive and kind on the introduction. That's not even us. That's not even us in this story. Agencies out there are the friends and the support system that were around this person when they went to healing. And we are there to say, man, let's think about this. We want to help. Look, that is really a good answer. We've known each other a long time. I'm not lying to you. I can't tell you what to do. But let's think about this. Okay. Support. Okay. And, and then in it, like you say, you're going, we can't heal anybody. And the issues that are ailing them are not necessarily just a house

[B]

that is so abundantly and painfully clear.

[A]

Unfortunate. Yeah.

[B]

We've got people that are in housing that have been in our program for over a year now that are just not going to make it in housing. And I believe that it comes back to this principle that we have, as you said, been harping on over the last several weeks. We've got to figure out how to build our programs around dignity of person.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

And a positive community of support.

[A]

That's moving people to healing. Yes, that's moving people to healing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think we need to focus on moving people to healing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We are. Whatever we won't go into. But like this story response. His poor response, the friends and the support around this person's obligation to them is not to say, okay, look, you've proven right here that you're incapable of making your own decision. So I will make it for you.

[B]

We are going to hogtie you and throw you into the river seven times as a group.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And dunk you under the water. It wouldn't have worked.

[A]

Wouldn't have worked.

[B]

No.

[A]

Even though we know for certain that's what they need. Can't do it. And so out there, if the chiefs listen to this, we understand that's against the law. Okay. So not doing that. That's metaphorically. We were speaking of that. But to look at that and to go, so mine. Where I'm really coming back to. And. And in this modern world, the question we keep coming back to is we have to look at is, are we truly desiring healing for the people that we come in contact with? The other stuff is so much easier because we're not in control of the healing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So, like the interaction I had yesterday, I will see him. Him, her, whatever. I'll see him today. And I don't do any good if I say, hey, I know we had a bad day yesterday. Whatever you need, it's yours today. Hey, I got 10 pairs of socks. Here's shirts, here's this, here's this. Okay. That's not what he needs.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. I'm not taking that from a person. If he's out holding a sign that says, hey, I'm a veteran, he's not a veteran. Okay. That, you know. And any help. I've had some hard time. And if I give him five bucks, that's not help. Okay. If I go to him today again and he's not going to hear it, hey, there is healing. That river is not going anywhere.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'd love to help you go down there. That's where we need to go. What if it's true? What's it going to hurt? What if it's true that there is true restoration? If we just. If you just go to that. Just want you to know I'd love to help you go to the river.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Love to help you go to the river. I'm not the river. I don't have the power of the river. But I'd love to walk with you there. And I think that is where restoration and healing can occur. That's right. Saying I want you to stay exactly where you are within sight of the river. But frustrated about not going in it. That's not right for me to do. It's not right for me necessarily to go. And not always offering the hope that the river is there. There's restoration and there is healing and not to solely go.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Let's ride with this dude. And bad answer. Okay. Come on back. Because I'm least. No. We have to always be working. The model is odd. We want. Now we talk about this stuff. Like what I like on this because the topic we're talking about the metaphor we're using homelessness and addiction and stuff in our world. That's rampant right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I would say modern day. I'm not calling them lepers. We got five minutes. Evidently Nancy said, okay, so we're about done. Okay. But so evidently I'm now got to be done. Okay. So she's leading me to the river and I shall. They say you can lead a horse to the river and make him drink. We're fixing to see if it's true or not. But not sure. But. So mine is. I don't even know where I was going to go with that. She disturbed me completely in it. But mine is the topic that we're looking at. What I want everybody to hear is I had to define what leprosy looks like. I had to define what a leper colony looks like. Because you know why? We don't know it in our world. There is not a leper colony in temple right now. That is not. I'm going to walk out on the street and hope I don't come in contact with a leper. The disease is just about off the map in the United States.

[B]

In the world.

[A]

In the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's coming back a little bit some. But so all of that I'm saying in this deal where we're at here, okay. There is people that polio. Another one. Polio was all over the place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People proactively said we must find a healing for this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's put an end to it. Not let's keep big polio business going. We want polio done. We want the measles done. We want leprosy done. I get it. Their medical stuff. I'm saying our mindset as we deal with homelessness and the topics that surround it here is we must beginning this trans. The transition here in temple that it's not solely enough to be a nice person with everybody in these places of sickness. We must be truly trying to lead to healing and hope and help.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's it. And we're not the healers. We are the support that can keep people. And the answers are, as we see this one, pretty simple. Just jump in the river seven times. Why are you mad about who told you to do it? Okay. The answer is right there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Before we can move any further down the road, if you want to be cured of this, then this is how we have to do it. Then we worry about the other stuff. Ah, now you can have a house in the town because you no longer are this. Ah, now you can have kids because you can have a woman that can be with you now. Ah, now you can go to the synagogue because you are no longer unclean and you can. Those things will take care of themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

First thing is you got to have the healing and you've got to do the steps necessary to be healed. He had to get in the river on his own accord.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We had to be a support system that would encourage him to listen to the logic of why that is a good thing to do. But at the end of the day, I can't jump in the river for him. I. I couldn't go in there and go, maybe if I jump in 14 times, seven of them will count for him.

[B]

Or if I splash a little water on him as I'm going.

[A]

Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. So interesting discussion out of that. Hopefully it jogged in your head. The point of this is we're just looking at this topic and to look at so much of what we are doing, so much of what is occurring is not truly treating people with dignity and worth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just for trying to be nice. Possibly. I'm not, I can't say anybody's motivating factors, whatever. I can definitely say it. Really easy to look at it and go, I'm not sure we really desire healing, even though it's a complex topic. Leprosy was complex at that time in their society as well. I'm not doubting its complexity. I'm saying the minute things get addressed is the minute you understand I truly want healing. It occurs the minute we as organizations decide we all want healing for people and we're trying to lead them to that and what it looks like magically, it can occur.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I Think I came in under the 5 minutes time limit that Nancy gave me. So out there, hope you look at yourself. And to hear also for you, I would say to you how it applies and to me and to Nancy and to all of us is that God does desire healing for all of us. That's a fact. And sometimes for us, we don't like how it looks or how it was presented to us and we say, forget it. We take offense to it and we go, nah, I ain't doing that. That's stupid. Too simple. We don't do it. So out of that, all of y', all, you look at yourself. And to go, hey, what's it going to hurt? I'm tired of being sick. I'm tired of being an outcast. I'm tired of being this. Maybe there is healing and I'm willing to do what's necessary to get there. Because I'd love to see what the world looks like when I am not sick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Love to see what the world looks like when I'm not sick. And we ask, won't go off on a tirade, but we ask so many of the people that we deal with, imagine what your world could look like. We're leaving out the key factor. Easier to do when you are well right now. Imagine what your life could look like because you no longer have this. That's not you. That's not how you're defining reality anymore. Tell a leper, imagine what your world could look like if you didn't have leprosy. Yeah. Can't really do that. Tell a former leper that has been healed. Tell this guy who no longer has leprosy what do you think your world could look like now? I guarantee he has answers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So enough of that. Hope everybody has a great day. Hope you enjoyed this little rabbit trail. But you can see trying to work together and to figure out what is dignity. How do you respect people's choices? How do you help navigate choices when they're not sometimes the best? And how do you keep hope and healing always on the table and not take that off?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So hope you have a great day. Appreciate you all being there, wherever there is, and I look forward to talking to you.