The Commentary Magazine Podcast

"Abe Interviews John"

Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Abe Greenwald, Executive Editor
Guest: John Podhoretz, Editor of Commentary

Episode Overview

In this special episode, executive editor Abe Greenwald turns the tables and interviews Commentary’s editor (and regular podcast host) John Podhoretz. Their conversation explores the perpetual nature of ideological and political fights, the changing landscape of argument and persuasion in the social media era, the cyclical rhythms of history and despair, Israel’s "information war," personal ideological growth, and a lighthearted closing on television classics. The tone is thoughtful, candid, and familiar, with forays into both weighty analysis and pop culture reflection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Political and Ideological Fights Are Never Settled

[02:34]

• John reflects on how even issues that appear settled—such as the rejection of communism and socialism after the Soviet collapse—resurface with new life in subsequent generations.
  • "If that wasn't disproved fully and conclusively the way flat earth, flat eartherism was [...] And of course, socialism is back." — John Podhoretz [04:41]
• He compares this to cycles in history, noting that new generations, unscarred by old battles, are drawn back to ideas once thought vanquished.
  • "The people who saw the evil over time get old and wither and die [...] and are tempted by the same fantasies that gave rise to its power in the first place." — John [06:41]

2. The Waning Power and Changing Nature of Argument

[07:15]

• Abe questions whether argument has lost influence compared to personality, tribalism, and sensation.
  • "Arguments [...] don't seem to sort of penetrate the way other factors do." — Abe [07:53]
• John agrees, but notes that arguments over first principles were always elite concerns—now democratized (and diluted) by social media:
  • "Now, of course, everybody on earth can pop up on social media and make an argument." — John [09:08]
• Illustrates with how viral ideas can arise and disappear in hours; argues that while democratization makes suppression harder, it also magnifies noise and ephemerality.

3. Sensationalism vs Substance

[15:49]

• The pair discuss how “sensation” (akin to pornography) captures attention better than reasoned debate, a dynamic always present but intensified in a social media world.
  • "Art is an effort to explore things. And pornography is an effort to, you know, basically stimulate your basest [...] impulses. And they coexist." — John [16:03]
  • "Does sensation have the upper hand? Yeah, sure it does. I mean, look at the President of the United States." — John [16:27]

4. History’s Cycles: Despair, Renewal, and Progress

[17:17]

• Abe asks if cycles repeating can give hope that today’s extremes may eventually give way to better eras.
  • "Is there not [a] silver lining [...] does that mean there's reason to think that there would be a pre Trump [...] rhyming period?" — Abe [18:17]
• John responds with examples from 20th-century poetry (Yeats’s "Second Coming"), industrialization, and technological shifts—emphasizing that change can bring unexpected renewal.
  • "There are these periods in history where things go haywire and then reformation occurs, or there's some advance that changes the dynamic." — John [19:50]
• He reflects on how the collapse post-WWI appeared like the end of civilization, but was not, and points out the limits of prediction.

5. On Not Counseling Despair

[30:08]

• Abe: "When I first got to Commentary, I was made to understand that we do not counsel despair, which was very valuable for me because I am by nature more pessimistic than most." [30:08]
• The duo discuss whether there are moments when pessimism or alarm is more appropriate than optimism—referencing the Flight 93 election essay and reactions to cultural trends.
• John: "Despair is a form [of] giving up. [...] It's like, I can't even, I can't. I don't even know. I don't even want to talk about this because, you know, it's all over anyway." [32:34]
• They agree that while anger and action are justified responses to injustice, ultimate despair is paralyzing, and history can surprise with reversals (e.g., backlash against the trans movement).

Memorable Quote:
"At least if you think... there's a fight to be waged, that at least gives you a purpose [...] when you're low, it gives you a sense of [...] something you need to do to save yourself or save other people." — John [38:01]

6. Israel’s Messaging and the ‘Information War’

[39:18]

• Abe questions whether criticism of Israel's PR strategy in war is valid; John says the "information battlefield" was long prepared by opponents funding academia and activism, making PR counter-efforts nearly futile.
  • "Israel's only hope rested in victory and seeing what victory was going to bring, because we already knew what defeat would bring." — John [43:27]
• On accusations of Israel as a “white colonial settler” nation:
  • "You walk in Israel and it is the most, in terms of skin tone, variegated country I have ever seen." — John [44:55]
• They agree anti-Israel sentiment is often impervious to facts or argument; personal experience in Israel trumps propaganda, but not everyone can be “schlepped” to Tel Aviv.

7. Personal Evolution: Rethinking on Immigration

[49:54]

• Prompted by Abe, John acknowledges that his major view to have shifted in the last decade concerns immigration.
  • He was formerly “dovish,” motivated by Jewish history and the tragedies arising from restrictive immigration.
  • Now, overwhelmed systems and experiences with populations resistant to integration (e.g., Somali settlement in Minnesota) force a more tempered, less idealistic view.
  • "Some of the things that I believed were good [...] has had knock-on consequences that I did not anticipate." — John [52:15]

8. High Culture & Television: The Odd Couple & The Twilight Zone

[53:44]

• Abe asks John why he names "The Odd Couple" the greatest show ever.
  • John: "It is the last... gasp of a certain type of Jewish humor that doesn't really exist anymore, which is sardonic... locked in this battle together, living in this one apartment." [54:25]
  • Highlights its uniquely New York sensibility and influence via syndication.
• They both reminisce on "The Twilight Zone," noting its genre-mixing, strong short story roots, and biblical sense of justice.
  • "To me, Twilight Zone morality was: you're a guy, you're in a hurry, you park in a handicapped parking space, and at the end of the 22 minutes you will be in a wheelchair... — John [58:08]
  • Discusses why these stories endure, contrasting tight, theme-driven fiction with the later rise of meandering literary short stories.

Memorable Exchange:

• John: "A purposeful existence can get you through things that believing your existence has no purpose can't." [39:06]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On argument’s waning influence:
  "Argument over first things... was always a very elite conversation." – John [08:32]

• On the cycles of history:
  "What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Jerusalem to be born." – John quoting Yeats [19:00]

• On Israel and propaganda:
  "Could you tell that story? You can. Nobody seems to want to hear it..." – John [47:11]

• On despair and fighting on:
  "Despair is a form giving up [...] things happen that are very surprising." – John [32:38]

• On changing views:
  "Some of the things that I believed were good... has had knock on consequences that I did not anticipate." – John [52:15]

Engaging/Memorable Moments

• The vivid metaphors and asides (e.g. the “gunslinger” analogy for social media personalities [14:08], "western movie," or the compare-and-contrast of art with pornography [16:03]).
• Personal anecdotes, including their mutual "moment of despair" about the trans movement, and watching people they knew become activists [34:35].
• The generational and media nostalgia at the end, linking “The Twilight Zone,” classic short stories, and the changing face of American fiction.

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Never-ending battles of ideology: [02:34–07:15]
• Argument vs. sensation/role of social media: [07:15–17:17]
• History's cycles, despair, and hope: [17:17–23:16]
• Israel and the information war: [39:18–48:45]
• Personal ideological evolution: [49:54–53:44]
• High culture/the Odd Couple and Twilight Zone: [53:44–65:32]

Recommendations & Closing

• Contemplate “The Odd Couple,” “The Twilight Zone,” Yeats, Bamber Gascoigne, and Viktor Frankl’s "Man’s Search for Meaning."
• The episode closes with gratitude and encouragement to keep the intellectual flame burning—even when arguments seem to circle endlessly.

Summary prepared for listeners who want a thorough grasp of the conversation’s scope, key arguments, and most memorable exchanges.