Conspiracies Left and Right

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast: "Conspiracies Left and Right" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 24, 2025

Introduction and Context

The episode begins with host John Podhoretz welcoming listeners to the Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast. He notes the unique recording circumstances—taped on Wednesday night, July 23, 2025, despite being labeled as Thursday, July 24—leading to potential temporal confusions for listeners. The panel includes Executive Editor Abe Greenwald, Senior Editor Seth Mandel, Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti, and social commentary columnist Christine Rosen.

Russiagate and Obama-Trump Conspiracy Theories

The primary focus of the episode centers on recent developments in the Russiagate saga, particularly allegations against former President Barack Obama orchestrating a "Russia hoax" that purportedly entangled the Trump administration.

• Seth Mandel provides an overview of four significant disclosures linking the FBI, CIA, and Obama to the origin and perpetuation of the Russiagate investigation:

  "[02:44] Seth Mandel: ...the Director of National Intelligence has referred to her findings to the Justice Department, which... has impaneled a strike force to investigate the potential wrongdoing of President Obama and his underlings."

• John Podhoretz interjects with skepticism regarding the initial intelligence assessments, highlighting inconsistencies:

  "[06:14] John Podhoretz: ...the first report said nothing about Russia wanting Trump to be president."

• The discussion delves into the implications of these findings, suggesting potential misconduct by key figures like John Brennan and James Comey. Seth Mandel emphasizes the evolving nature of the intelligence reports:

  "[08:46] Seth Mandel: ...there was no evidence that Russia was actively pro Trump... but after Obama's directive, the reports shifted to suggest significant Russian influence."

Ageism and Presidential Candidates’ Health

Transitioning from conspiracy theories, the conversation shifts to the pressing issue of ageism in American politics, particularly concerning the health and vitality of presidential candidates.

• Christine Rosen reflects on Hillary Clinton's 2016 medical episode, drawing parallels to current discussions about President Joe Biden's health:

  "[19:31] Christine Rosen: ...Hillary appeared with specialized lenses in the wake of that... her husband then said that she had still been coping with the consequences of a concussion..."

• Abe Greenwald and other hosts note the implications of such health disclosures on public perception and electoral dynamics:

  "[27:05] Abe Greenwald: ...mix of age and health concerns have become central to voter considerations."

• The panel debates the necessity for younger leadership, concluding that America's electorate may increasingly prefer younger candidates to the currently aging pool.

  "[30:12] John Podhoretz: ...the American electorate is not going to want an old person as president."

Epstein Scandal and Its Implications

A significant portion of the podcast is dedicated to discussing the ongoing Epstein scandal and its ramifications for political figures, particularly former President Donald Trump.

• Seth Mandel highlights recent developments, including subpoenas for Ghislaine Maxwell and revelations from the Wall Street Journal about Trump's inclusion in Epstein's files:

  "[47:58] Seth Mandel: ...the House has subpoenaed Ghislaine Maxwell... the Justice Department told Trump in May that his name is among many in the Epstein files."

• The hosts express concern over the gravity and persistence of Epstein-related allegations, noting the potential impact on Trump's reputation and political standing.

  "[62:35] John Podhoretz: ...there is no Gerald Posner solution that will explain Epstein's complex web of associations."

• Matthew Continetti remarks on the timing and media dynamics fueling the resurgence of Epstein-related stories:

  "[53:40] Matthew Continetti: ...why this push to make it mainstream storytelling is new... pushed by both MAGA extremists and Democrats."

Settlement with Columbia University on Anti-Semitism

The episode transitions to a critical discussion about Columbia University's settlement with the Trump administration over Title VI violations concerning anti-Semitism.

• John Podhoretz outlines the specifics of the $200 million fine Columbia agreed to pay, emphasizing the institution's acknowledgment of failing to protect Jewish students:

  "[67:09] John Podhoretz: ...Columbia will pledge to follow laws banning the consideration of race and admissions in hiring... pay $200 million to settle charges relating to anti-Semitism."

• Abe Greenwald and Seth Mandel discuss the implications of this settlement, including the establishment of monitoring mechanisms to ensure compliance and the potential precedent it sets for other universities facing similar allegations.

  "[74:50] Abe Greenwald: ...the deal sets a precedent that other universities will likely follow, requiring them to implement stricter anti-discrimination measures."

• Christine Rosen adds that the settlement's lack of an admission of wrongdoing does not diminish its significance in addressing systemic anti-Semitism within academic institutions.

  "[73:45] Christine Rosen: ...they would have retained their billions, but instead chose to settle, acknowledging their failures."

Conclusion and Final Remarks

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the interconnectedness of American political elites, the enduring impact of scandals like Epstein's, and the ongoing challenges posed by ageism and health transparency in politics.

• Christine Rosen emphasizes the Trump administration's efforts to combat rising anti-Semitism, contrasting it with the perceived inaction of previous administrations:

  "[78:37] Christine Rosen: ...somebody is standing up and saying no to the elites that seem to think that it's okay."

• John Podhoretz reiterates the need for accountability and transparency, whether in addressing past conspiracies or ensuring fair treatment within educational institutions.

  "[79:58] John Podhoretz: ...somebody stood up for America's Jews at a moment when Jews are more at peril in this country than since 1915."

The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to remain vigilant and informed about these pervasive issues affecting American society and governance.

Notable Quotes

1. John Podhoretz on the complexity of shifting intelligence reports:

   "That gets into the Fourth disclosure."
   [06:29]

2. Seth Mandel on the impact of Epstein's liberation and subsequent activities:

   "How did that happen? How did a convicted sex offender continue to operate and maintain high-profile connections?"
   [60:31]

3. Christine Rosen on the battle against anti-Semitism:

   "Somebody is standing up and saying no to the elites that seem to think that it's okay."
   [78:37]

4. Abe Greenwald on the necessity of settlement compliance:

   "They don't have to, they don't have to actually say no."
   [73:45]

Key Takeaways

• The episode critically examines ongoing conspiracy theories linking former President Obama to Russiagate, emphasizing recent disclosures that challenge previous narratives.

• Age and health concerns of presidential candidates, particularly Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, are scrutinized, highlighting the electorate's growing preference for younger leadership.

• The persistent Epstein scandal continues to influence political discourse, with significant implications for figures like Donald Trump and ongoing legal investigations.

• Columbia University's settlement over anti-Semitism represents a pivotal moment in addressing systemic discrimination within higher education, potentially setting a legal and moral precedent for other institutions.

• The interconnectedness of American political elites and the challenges of maintaining accountability amidst widespread scandals underscore the podcast's exploration of left and right-wing conspiracies.

Conclusion

"Conspiracies Left and Right" offers a comprehensive and critical analysis of some of the most pressing political scandals and societal issues facing the United States. Through informed discussions and incisive commentary, the hosts shed light on the complexities of governance, accountability, and the ever-evolving landscape of American politics.

Transcript

[John Podhoretz]

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[Seth Mandel]

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[Christine Rosen]

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[Seth Mandel]

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[Christine Rosen]

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[Abe Greenwald]

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[John Podhoretz]

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[Seth Mandel]

Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile do.

[Christine Rosen]

Hope for the best Expect the worst.

[John Podhoretz]

Some preacher pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing which way it's going Hope for the best Expect the.

[Christine Rosen]

Worst Hope for the best.

[John Podhoretz]

Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Thursday, Thursday, July 24, 2025. Although I am informing you, our audience, that we are taping this on Wednesday night, July 23, for travel reasons. And so the days may get a little screwed up. As you're listening, we may refer to things as today that you will be hearing that happened yesterday. And you're just going to have to suck it up and take it, because that's just how we roll. And by we, I mean Executive Editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[Christine Rosen]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.

[Seth Mandel]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

And Matt's colleague at the American Enterprise Institute, our social commentary columnist and the author of the Extinction of Experience, Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.

[Matthew Continetti]

Hi, John. I think that, I think Suck it up is a good introduction to reminding our listeners that it's Commentary after dark. So there are no rules.

[John Podhoretz]

It is late. That's right. It is Wednesday night. And we are, we're a little cranky. We've already, we've already had some friction. We've had conversations in which at least one of us, meaning me, has admitted that I didn't know what I was talking about when I was talking about talking about a certain topic that we will not be talking about because I don't know what we were talking about. And Matt was very scornful. So I'm going to accept his scorn and turn to him to give us a report on the news of the day, which was the follow up by Director of National Intelligence, former member of Congress, former Democratic candidate for President, Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, letting the world know that Barack Obama should apparently go to Devil's Island. Can you Please fill us.

[Seth Mandel]

Well, in a remarkable press conference today at the White House, Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt basically open the mic to Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, to further disclose additional information contributing to Tulsi Gabbard's charge that Barack Obama was the Mastermind of the 2016 Russia hoax that ensnared the Trump administration in its first two years, 2017, 2018, really into the spring of 2019, when the Mueller report was released. And this has led Trump to accuse former President Obama of treason and a whole lot of other things. Any word you can think of was Trump's phrase in the Oval Office the other day. And the Director of National Intelligence has referred to her findings to the Justice Department, which we learned this evening, Wednesday, July 23, has impaneled a strike force, a strike force to investigate the potential wrongdoing of President Obama and his underlings. Just to kind of provide some context, because I know that there are certain people for whom the very word Russia investigation produces brain freeze, and I may be married to one of those people. So I'm trying to make it clear to for everyone what we're talking about here. But in the past two weeks, there have been four different disclosures of information regarding the FBI, the CIA, and Obama. And I'll just walk briefly through all four. The first was a CIA report written by the CIA that examined John Brennan's hand in the origins. Who was John Brennan? John Brennan was the former CIA director, a terrible person and actually a true bad person. And this report found that John Brennan had been frank, forcing CIA analysts basically to include false material or material that the analysts didn't believe into the presidential brief and into the intelligence community assessment. And John Ratcliffe, who's now the current Director of CIA intelligence, he referred Brennan to the Justice Department as well as James Comey, the former FBI director, for reasons that are a little bit unclear. So that's number one. Number two was last Friday, Tulsi Gabbard declassified information showing that, in her words, the initial intelligence community report saying that Russia had not hacked our election system, Russia had not changed the result of the election, had been basically tossed aside or sent back in order to produce a new report at the direction of President Obama that was much more expansive and that spoke to larger Russian influence campaigns, and that included the idea that Russia had materially affected the results of.

[John Podhoretz]

The 2016 election, but also that Russia, what it found, if I remember correctly, is that the first report said nothing about Russia wanting Trump to be president.

[Seth Mandel]

That gets into the Fourth disclosure.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Seth Mandel]

First. So there are parts of that you could read into the second disclosure for Friday. But then there's the third disclosure, which I think is one of the more interesting ones, and that is Chuck Grassley.

[John Podhoretz]

Seemingly independently, Republican senator from Iowa. Oh, the wonderful 91 year old Republican.

[Seth Mandel]

Senator from Iowa does push ups and he goes to the diner with his wife.

[Matthew Continetti]

He's fry.

[Seth Mandel]

Yeah, yeah, he's fry. He's one of the best. He was able to declassify FBI documents that go into kind of the Keystone Cops handling of the FBI's investigation into Hillary Clinton in 2016, which again, that was over her server. And the email, remember the emails. And what it showed too was just a dazzling level of both ineptitude and hubris on the part of Comey, the former FBI director. So then that, so that was three. And number four was today happened right as we were recording Wednesday's program earlier today. That was Tulsi Gabbard declassifying an appendix to the hpsi, which is the House Select Committee on Intelligence report, into Russiagate from 2018. But this information had been, had been classified. We hadn't heard about it. And what it says and what she was saying at the lectern today was that basically not only did the Obama administration change its tune about whether Russia was pro Trump or not, right. They knew that Russia was anti Hillary, but there was no evidence that Russia was actively pro Trump. And then that until Obama had a meeting and ordered a new rushed report that then came out with this stuff that said that Russia was pro Trump and included the Steele dossier, the fake dossier about these connections. So, so that was part of it. But what, how she knows this, and I know I'm sounding like that character and with the board, with the board.

[John Podhoretz]

And Parks, I don't.

[Seth Mandel]

But I, but I've just found myself, I found myself so enraptured, wrapped by this story. So they found out that this change happened because of directions from Brennan and also they say Obama. But her proof that this change happened, that there was no evidence that Russia was actively pro Trump, is that they found that there was plenty of Russian material that Russia did not put into the news cycle, that did not disperse because Russia was basically saving it for when Hillary was elected. And if I may say what this material was, because this material made my day. And I just have to do a find here in the article for, yes, tranquilizers. So what they found was that Hillary Clinton. Now some of this we already knew because it said that the Russians had said that they had uncovered that Hillary was subject to violent mood swings, which I think anyone who has paid attention to the news for the last, I don't know, 35 years read her memoirs.

[Matthew Continetti]

As to the fact that this exists. Yes.

[Seth Mandel]

Or, you know, throwing lamps at her husband in the White House during some of the scandals affecting his personal life, we kind of knew that the case. But then they said.

[John Podhoretz]

Here is.

[Seth Mandel]

Here's a quote. Russia's intelligence service, the svr, possessed DNC communications that Hillary Clinton was suffering from. Here's the quote. Intensified psycho emotional problems, including uncontrolled fits of anger, aggression, and cheerfulness that I didn't see much of, but that's an aside. And then they found out that Clinton was placed on a daily regimen of heavy tranquilizers. And even while she was afraid of losing, she remained obsessed with her thirst for power. So this is the information the Russians didn't point out, put out. But I just have to say that the words heavy tranquilizers for me make this whole scandal worthwhile.

[Christine Rosen]

Hmm. Can I, can I, can I, can.

[Seth Mandel]

I weigh in, please? Well, of course I'm done with my summary.

[Christine Rosen]

I said that because I usually don't dive in right after I, Matt, summary.

[John Podhoretz]

Make a dive.

[Christine Rosen]

But we all know that when it's after dark, all the rules.

[Matthew Continetti]

And also, can we shout out. Matt took that. For all of us watching that press conference. Thank you, Matt.

[Seth Mandel]

Like I said, I love it.

[John Podhoretz]

I love it.

[Christine Rosen]

I caught the 30 seconds that I. On the. On Special Report that. That. That covered it. Here are my first impressions of this. It's too much of a maze. The fact that there are these four points, and each one in itself is quite complicated. It is too much of a maze for me at this time to care about. Doesn't mean people love mazes. A certain type of person loves mazes.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Christine Rosen]

And that, that, that, that could be the beginning of, you know, like, a much richer story and a sort of thread that unfurls here. But for me, it is way too much of a maze. And I have to say, referring to the last podcast we did where John talked about motive, none of it goes to the idea that the Obama administration knew for a fact that Trump was not colluding with the Kremlin and yet tried to pretend otherwise.

[Abe Greenwald]

Okay, so that podcast Abe is referring to, by the way, was yesterday's podcast recorded several hours ago.

[Christine Rosen]

Right.

[John Podhoretz]

Podcast. Yesterday's podcast days. We are totally. This is like, you know, when you get into, like, a later season of lost. And you don't know if you're flashing sideways or you're flashing backward or you're flashing forward. So Matt is discussing things that happened Wednesday afternoon. Abe was talking about a podcast that you might have listened to Wednesday afternoon. We are talking Wednesday night, although you're listening to probably on Thursday. So that's another example of the maze that we have now entered you into as we go through the looking glass here on Commentary After Dark. Here's the central point of all of this, okay. Which is there's kind of a distinction, without a difference of saying that while the intelligence community at first assessed that Putin hated Hillary and wanted to hurt Hillary, that the Russians were therefore not interested in helping Trump. Because if you hurt Hillary in a binary election, you're helping Trump. Now, maybe the purpose wasn't to help Trump. The purpose was just to hurt Hillary, because as we know, beginning in 2010, 2011, according to Michael McFaul, who was the ambassador in Russia at the time, Putin conceived of a great dislike of him and Hillary, the roots of which he is not entirely sure he understands. The level of hostility that Putin achieved in relation to, to the two of them was mysterious to him and seemed excessive, but that by the time 2016 rolled around, he really wanted Hillary's head on a platter. So saying that you, as the people who are excited by this as a means of taking Obama down, however long it's been, nine years since he were eight years since he left the president presidency and like destroying his reputation or whatever, by saying that Putin wanted to nail Hillary but didn't want to help Trump. It's kind of, as I say, a distinction, but it does, it does get.

[Seth Mandel]

To this collusion charge.

[John Podhoretz]

Right? Because the active purpose of Putin wasn't to help Trump. The helping Trump was a cherry on the top of the Sunday, but not the purpose of the Sunday.

[Seth Mandel]

But let's not forget that the people who believed that Trump was colluding with Russia got a FISA warrant into the Trump campaign through Carter Page on no grounds whatsoever, and then also used the Steele dossier to cook up this new intelligence report that was then told to Trump right before the dosse was leaked and produced. The Mueller investigation, which consumed Trump's administration, got Mike Flynn fired, as we were saying earlier. So, I mean, yeah, this had huge consequences. So my, so my distinction it would be, this is really interesting information. Some of it is not new to people who've been following this very closely, like Andy McCarthy and Eli Lake. But nonetheless, I think it's good that it's out there. It does go to, again, the, I think, the malicious activity of folks like John Brennan and Comey. But saying Obama is going to be frog marched, imprisoned for an act of treason, that's a little. That's little much. You know, that's a little, little much.

[Matthew Continetti]

But it is extremely strategic on Tulsi Gabbard's part to be doing this now, because what was her last sort of spin through the public media cycle? It was her having been people having noticed that she had been saying things that were completely wrong about Iran and its nuclear weapons program and being in somewhat an oppositionally defiant position, as we say, of angry toddlers with Trump within the Trump administration. This brings her back into the narrative in the fold that is the Trump world, where these sorts of things matter a great deal to certain members of Trump's base. And that for her, strategically, internally, within MAGA world and within the Trump's White House is probably savvy on her part.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay. Totally savvy on her part. You know, Trump's affections and irritations are, of course, very macurial and sodic. She has now done him a solid. Changing the subject from the next subject that we will get to. Or at least complicating it.

[Seth Mandel]

Trying to change the subject and.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. And trying to change the subject and. And then also, I think, resonating something that is not new but was forgotten and has weird resonance given what happened over the last couple of years, which is on September 11, 2016, at a commemoration of the Al Qaeda attacks on the United States in lower Manhattan, Hillary Clinton, the Democratic candidate for the presidency, had a medical episode that looked pretty serious, caught on video about which we were lied to.

[Seth Mandel]

Yeah, sounds familiar.

[John Podhoretz]

She collapsed into her car. We saw her stumble. We saw her have what looked like a kind of epileptic fit.

[Matthew Continetti]

Well, her Secret Service had to actually pick her up shaking.

[John Podhoretz]

She got in the car and we had 10 different explanations over the next week over what happened. She had the flu.

[Matthew Continetti]

She's dehydrated, like, all right.

[John Podhoretz]

She was still, as her husband said.

[Christine Rosen]

And it wasn't a particularly hot day. It was September.

[John Podhoretz]

Her husband then said that she had still been coping with the consequences of a concussion that she had suffered in their house in Chappaqua six or eight months earlier when she fell down the stairs. Now, if she. Speaking of someone who has had a family member who had a serious concussion that had long ramifications, if she had had a serious concussion in the early part of her presidential campaign, that was a significant matter that was kept from us. We were not told that she had had a brain injury, which is what a concussion is. It's not visible and it's actually, you know, it's not really entirely detectable even on MRIs. But it's a brain injury and can have all sorts of consequences.

[Abe Greenwald]

Right. They don't, they can't figure out what happened to NFL players with post concussion syndrome fully unless they're willing to their heads cut open after they're dead.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. But if you.

[Christine Rosen]

Recall, Hillary appeared with specialized lenses in the wake of that.

[John Podhoretz]

Right, right.

[Seth Mandel]

Free Deacon. We covered that very closely.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. But my point is that in the aftermath of the Joe Biden scandal.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah.

[John Podhoretz]

Raising questions about whether or not Democratic candidates for president might have been in the midst of a cover up of the severity of their medical condition means something more than it did in 2016.

[Christine Rosen]

John, I think it's an incredible point because that whole episode until you said it, I hadn't thought about it in years.

[John Podhoretz]

Why would you.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah, and it hasn't come up at all that, that news cycle, it was huge news and it vanished and it is so resonant now. And you also, you know, you have, you also have to remember that you have to pair this with when Trump walks up a ramp that someone perceives slow as him doing so slowly, you know, or he drank his water, two hands to pull a cup of water to his mouth.

[John Podhoretz]

Right, right.

[Christine Rosen]

You know, then, then a panel of, of MDs weigh in, you know, on the front page of major newspapers.

[Seth Mandel]

Well, look, I think this is one reason that there continues to be interest in the Russia story on the part of a lot of conservatives in the Trump base, which is people were given Pulitzer prizes for their reporting on this Russian collusion between Putin and Trump that just didn't exist. It didn't happen.

[John Podhoretz]

Even more important, and it's the same.

[Seth Mandel]

People who then covered for Biden or who put Hillary's health condition under the rug as well.

[Christine Rosen]

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[John Podhoretz]

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Than windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 40% off site wide, plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. Hillary Clinton almost won the presidency, Right? I mean, let's face it. If Comey hadn't reopened the investigation on October 28, it is likely that Hillary Clinton would have won the presidency in November of 2016. And we don't know what condition she was in. Simple as that. And then four years later, we were assured that a very old man who seemed kind of off, a little bit off, but was running a unique kind of presidential campaign because of COVID was fine and he got elected president and he wasn't fine and he got worse and worse and worse and worse. And if we went back through our archives of this podcast since we started doing a daily podcast in 2020, in March of 2020, when Covid hit, I would be interested to see when we started talking about Biden and his infirmities, because I know that we were talking about it on almost weekly basis beginning in 2022.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yes.

[John Podhoretz]

But I will bet you that, well, before the election in 2020, we had.

[Seth Mandel]

2 or 3 19. Remember, remember one of the first Democratic primary debates, he looked lost on stage and Jill Biden kind of had to go up on stage and grab his hand.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Seth Mandel]

So this is even before he won the nomination.

[John Podhoretz]

So. Right. So my point here is.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, it's more, by the way, it's more that it's more than just, you know, the media didn't uncover this or something like that. The news cycles were that questioning Hillary's health was sexism. Right. Here's a, here's a, here's a, here's a regular headline. There's a subtle sexism in asking excessive Questions with quotes around it about Hillary Clinton's health. This is from Vox, but if you look at that time, you see, you know, all that, all the health stuff was like fed into the media, woke o meter and it spit out the other end, sexism. And so there you weren't allowed to question it and you weren't. And that's why with the Biden stuff, they didn't have the same way around it. Because when Hillary ran, they said, nobody ever asked these questions of a man. Nobody ever said, oh, is Obama too old Even though he's 300 years younger than Hillary Clinton? Is George W. Bush too? Well, whatever. Like they made it into a whole thing. We never asked these questions of men when what was happening actually was we were starting to regularly have old can. We were just approaching a new.

[John Podhoretz]

That's right.

[Abe Greenwald]

Era where we were going to have old candidate after old candidate.

[Matthew Continetti]

And well, they tried a little bit with the sort of ageism thing. Remember there was this little trial balloon of like, you know, there, there's something about a vigorous 75 year old that people don't really understand. And they have these longevity experts quoted, but they quickly drop that when. Because every time someone trotted Joe Biden out in front of a camera, it was pretty obvious he wasn't that vigorous. 75 year old.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. So we had had, I think George w. Bush was 54 when he became president. Clinton obviously was 43. Yeah, right. When he. So we had a 43 year old president, we had a 54 year old president, we then had a 47 year old president who had run, run, run against a 72 year old man. Right. John McCain was going to be the oldest person ever elected president. He had won in, in 2008. And there was plenty of slimy talk about how he was too old, he was crotchety, short tempered, got a man howling at moon, shaking his fisted moon kind of things about him.

[Seth Mandel]

He was kind of that way when he was younger too.

[John Podhoretz]

But that's my point. Right, which was.

[Matthew Continetti]

I know, which is why he was awesome.

[Seth Mandel]

That's why we like John Case.

[John Podhoretz]

But then we moved into a period in which Hillary Clinton was gonna be 70. I think she was born in 46. So in 2016 she was 70. Trump was 74. What was Trump? No, 2016. He was also 70. Yeah, he was 70. They were both born in 46, so he was 70, she was 70. And then of course Biden was 78, Trump was 74. Now Trump's going to turn 79. We're in a new era in which we have these bizarrely old people running for office. Reagan was the oldest person ever elected president in 1980. He was 69 and he left office at 77.

[Abe Greenwald]

And, and on both sides, the key is that you had old versus old. That's the era we've been in for nearly a decade now where you didn't have the contrast. You just had to pick between older candidates.

[John Podhoretz]

And you know what? This is now going to be an issue going forward, period. First of all, it's an implicit issue now as Democrats are talking about moving forward. And what is it that they keep saying about Zoram Dani and why he's so pop if he's popular, which we don't even really know if he's popular, but why he's captured the attention of so many or what's going to happen in, you know, 2028 with Democrats. And there's all this we need new blood, new blood, fresh blood, young blood, new blood, new blood, new blood.

[Matthew Continetti]

Vogue spread. He's another one, the governor of Kentucky. He just did it. He just did a Vogue spread with his wife very much.

[Seth Mandel]

I don't think we're going to have this issue.

[Matthew Continetti]

No, it'll be young.

[Seth Mandel]

Not for another 30 years.

[John Podhoretz]

No. What I mean is we're not. The issue is going to be that America is not going to want an old person as president, is what I.

[Seth Mandel]

Think it's kind of aging out. I mean, I think I've mentioned to you this to you once before, and I don't think you agreed with me. So that was the end of the conversation. But I mean, I think, I think Trump is our last boomer president.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, no, I think that's the end, Jim.

[Matthew Continetti]

Here's hoping.

[Seth Mandel]

And so in 2028, I mean.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, right.

[Seth Mandel]

We're going to. It's going to be either Vance or, you know, Rubio or, you know, they're.

[John Podhoretz]

Both in their will be vance will.

[Seth Mandel]

Be 44 democratic side. You know, I mean, they're not going to put up an old war horse.

[John Podhoretz]

I mean, the reason you're saying that demographically. But I think that there'll be more than demographics that play a role here, which is that it's going to be a kind of vibe in the American electorate that we spent the years between 2016 and 2028 being governed by old men. And even if you like Trump, obviously he's done in 2028 and it's enough. And there are issues when you have an old man as president, obvious, very obvious issues relating to Biden that are now, are now explicable as issues. But Trump's got three and a half years left to go. And this is a very punishing, very taxing, very labor intensive and very emotionally wearing job. And it makes people older. I mean Bush looked way older after eight years. Obama looked way older after eight years. Biden looked like he'd age 10 years and four.

[Christine Rosen]

To be honest, I think both Bush and Biden actually sort of, sort of wore it better than anyone ever by the way, as has Trump. I mean, no, he's wearing it fine.

[John Podhoretz]

Now but you know, he's.

[Abe Greenwald]

I remember very early in the administration, you know, the Russiagate stuff came in right away and then there was all this other stuff happening in 2016. And I remember having conversation with you, John, about it and I remember you said something to me like he can't survive four years like this. Like it's not humanly possible to have a like 20 hour days of outrage and anger and fury and all this other stuff. And he, you know, and he managed, you know, he muddled through. But, but yes, eventually that catches up.

[Seth Mandel]

Yeah, but I don't think it's the job as president.

[Abe Greenwald]

It looked like, you know, he particular was like he was also going to rage, tweet.

[Seth Mandel]

You know what, I think it's just his age. I think his age is catching up with him. It's not the job that's catching up Trump.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, but we just saw that last.

[Seth Mandel]

Week when they had to disclose the ankle swelling and the bruise in the news.

[Matthew Continetti]

That's still a story which I think is interesting. I think they will now start to do those stories stories more and more frequently obviously without any self awareness of how the fact about the fact that they never wanted to cover that with Biden. But I don't think it will land in the same way to the point about. I think Matt's right. Last boomer president, people will sort of shrug and go, well, I mean at least he seems to be able to string two sentences together which the previous.

[John Podhoretz]

President could not remember. This is the first year of this first second term or second first term or whatever you want to call it. And where it's like the job is generally speaking people of this age and he will be 80 at the end of next year or something like that do not have this kind of job.

[Seth Mandel]

Yeah, but you've noticed John, he's a little different than other people.

[John Podhoretz]

But we'll see where he is in a year and a half or today.

[Seth Mandel]

You know, he had the Japan deal and he had this AI policy he put out this afternoon with the executive orders in a speech, and he'll be truthing all night over Tulsi Gabbard and everything. He doesn't really stop.

[John Podhoretz]

I'm not saying that he does, but I mean, just put a bow on this or sort of finish where we started. My. The point here is that one of the reasons that this story will resonate the 2016 Clinton mussing about is not just because the right properly and understandably has a burr in its saddle that it has had since the Russiagate story became a major story and sort of became the major distraction of the Trump administration. And so reminding them of the burr in the saddle and how that was never satisfactorily resolved. Even though Trump got out of it. He got himself reelected in matters that had no reference to it. And a lot of people who raised it or were playing in the field of it were punished for it. We feel like they weren't. But Peter Strzok was fired. Andrew McCabe was fired. The report of the IG at the Justice Department about the misbehavior of the FBI cast a permanent shadow on James Comey and the people who had worked for him. Comey was fired. You know, people were, people were hiding behind that curtain.

[Abe Greenwald]

But it didn't.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. I'm saying that a lot happened where ultimately they didn't quite. They didn't get away with it. They didn't. And they didn't impeach. They didn't impeach him on it. Mueller wrote a report that did not.

[Matthew Continetti]

But they felt that the election, his reelection was stolen from him because of it.

[John Podhoretz]

Fair enough. Okay. But what I'm. Okay. I'm only going back to say there's a reason why the story has ignited the right, but there's a reason why it may spread a little further than the fever swamps of the right. And that is if this stuff about Hillary's health connects in people's minds to the stuff about Biden's health. The idea that the elites of the Democratic Party want to hide the condition of its leaders from you, the American people, so they can put one over on you, is not thinking that Barack Obama ran a machine out of the White House to destroy Trump's presidency before it started. And it was Obama himself who said, you do this and you do that. That I don't buy thinking that the entire Democratic Party was engaged in a conspiracy to cover up possibly Hillary Clinton's illnesses. I don't buy Biden's illnesses. I think is More credible.

[Matthew Continetti]

The COVID of the Biden illness, I think should, can and should continue to be something that the American people discuss and demand answers from their leaders. The thing about Hillary though, is that contra Obama's comment to her during that debate, she's not that likable. And there's a. Her unlikability in a weird way, kind of gets there an escape hatch from this ongoing discussion. She just kind of, she's. She's this epic failure.

[Seth Mandel]

The best. The best. Hillary. Is Hillary drugged or drunk? I mean, that's the best. So that's why this story I find so amusing that the Russians were hiding. Hiding in this information. I think that just to maybe segue to the next topic.

[Christine Rosen]

Before we segue, I just want to say this, that because of the fact, as John, you say, this is our last boomer president.

[John Podhoretz]

Really? Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not taking away.

[Seth Mandel]

It's okay.

[Matthew Continetti]

John's lips to God's lips.

[Christine Rosen]

The issue of covering up age is also sort of automatically now kind of wiped away. It shouldn't be as a historical matter, as a legal matter, as a political matter, but I mean as a, as a practical electoral matter.

[Seth Mandel]

Unless Kamala Harris is the 28th Democratic nominee.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Seth Mandel]

Then it will still be a story because it will be about Biden and what.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, sure, but that.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah, yeah, but yeah.

[Seth Mandel]

Otherwise I don't think it will be an issue in the 20 after.

[Christine Rosen]

And I also just want to say that, like in thinking about this idea that Trump will be our last boomer president, while I thoroughly agree that we don't need people and God bless them, collapsing in front of microphones and freezing up and, and collapsing before their limos and, you know, having all sorts of problems. I agree, this is. We've gotten out of control. The issue is for me that the break between generations between the boomers and what comes after them politically is very stark, ideal, logically and in style. And that to me is like, it actually gives me pause. Even though even, you know, you know, while I'm, I'm. I'm fully behind the idea that this has gotten out of hand. But like, right, we've got some like. Yeah, fire breathers coming up.

[Seth Mandel]

You know what? I think that's a great point. But I will, you know, I'm always long America. I actually think this will be a good thing for our system because I think that the parties are situated to elevate folks who served during the war on terror and who kind of came of age post 9, 11 and they actually, Republican and Democrat, their ethos reminds me a lot of the greatest generation. So, yes, you always will have the extremes. And you have the Mamdanis, even younger generation than the one I'm talking about, the AOCs, they're out there. But you also have within the Democratic Party, figures like, you know, Mickey Sherrill in New Jersey or Slotkin, Slotkin, Crow, Spanberger. So I think there are going to be people who kind of, you know, they're not going to be as frightening as some of the figures you mentioned. And I put J.D. vance in that category, too. He served his country and he has distinct views on these issues. But even he, when he's not online, has a different kind of tone and bearing than, say, his current boss.

[John Podhoretz]

And I think one final thing to say about Trump and Russia, even now, and it's important, I think, to note this because of things that have happened in the last three weeks that have gone less remarked than they should because so much else was happening. One of the reasons that I and others started feeling differently about the question of whether Trump had an untoward relationship with Putin and Russia was the policies that he enacted in his first term where he levied severe sanctions on Russia for its behavior in Ukraine in relation to Ukraine. Harsher sanctions than Obama, who supposedly was. The Obama administration was supposedly so supportive of Ukraine and the Maidan revolution and effort and turning back and opposing what happened in the Donbas and all of this, but that they never did anything, you know, people, they brought a cake to Maidan, but they didn't do anything to help the Ukrainians.

[Christine Rosen]

This is, this is one of the remarkable differences between the, the first Trump term and the second term. And it speaks to all sorts of things. Trump made a big show out of saying, Obama sent Ukraine meals, we sent them weapons.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Christine Rosen]

And that was before. That was a selling point for. That was before the invasion, of course.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, that was before the 2022 invasion. Right, right. And that, and we know that during the Trump administration, as Todd Lindbergh detailed in an article that we published in early 2023, there's a lot of stuff going on with US military, with contractors and others. US military training the Ukrainians in techniques of warfare that they had never learned because. Or ways of resisting and stuff like that. Okay, so that's term one. Term two begins with Trump saying that the war in Ukraine is terrible and he can solve it on the first day, and he's going to. And he makes nice with Putin and he attack and he has that horrible meeting in The Oval Office with Zelensky and Vance, and everything's looking bleak and everything's looking terrible. And then, however it happened, whether the intelligence was unassailable or things that they heard on SIGINT where you couldn't reject, or it was just that Putin was so dismissive and was doing things when he said, don't do them, that he did anyway, that he turned. And he's not exactly, you know, he's not LBJ building up 500,000 troops, American forces in Vietnam, but he made a. He did a heel turn on Ukraine. Now, I don't know if it's going to be enough. Doesn't feel like enough to me because of what I would want America to do in Ukraine. But you cannot deny that he is a different person today than he was on January 21st when it relates to Ukraine, which means that he is now, in two successive terms, under two wildly different sets of circumstances, gone at Russia and turned. America said, Russia is. We are in an adversarial relationship with Russia. Did he bring a button that said reset to Russia? No, that was Hillary Clinton who did that in 2009. He has confronted.

[Abe Greenwald]

And there was the transmit this to Vladimir episode, which was a big deal at the time.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. When he was standing on a stage with then Putin substitute President Dmitry Medvedev saying, I'm going to have a lot more flexibility after the election to make deals with you. And Medvedev, who was supposedly the head of government of his country, said, okay, I'll tell Vladimir, because as we both know, he's actually still really the president. Right. And that happened on an open mic. My point is that.

[Christine Rosen]

And that was. There was every reason to believe that that was a bet about Eastern European countries, missile defense assets pulling.

[John Podhoretz]

And yeah, this is important because I look on social media and I see people that I respect or have respected for all kinds of reasons and for all kinds of. And people that I've worked with and people that I like and people that I respect who are still a slimily asserting. And I think it's slimy that or slimily implying that Trump is Putin's cat's paw. And it is slanderous at this point to say such a thing. It just is. You can hate Trump, you can think he's an emolument hungry monster who should be impeached and thrown out of office and all of that, but you cannot look at what he has done, particularly in the past month or in his first presidency, and say that he's everything Putin ever wanted in a president because he really isn't. And what's happening now is that Trump is, is acknowledging that the war is going to continue and that all things being equal, if there's going to be a side in the war that you got to support, it's got to be Ukraine, because Russia is the bad actor here. So meanwhile, all sorts of other stuff is going on in Ukraine. We don't have time to talk about demonstrations, about an anti corruption law being lifted and Zelensky first real challenge to Zelensky's rule and power in his behavior in relation to this domestic issue. But for people in the Never Trump movement again that are old friends of mine and stuff like that, to still play this footsie game with Trump being a Putinite is just immoral demon logic.

[Seth Mandel]

So now I'll take the segue to the second story because there's actually a third story that just broke while we started this. The administration has settled with Colombia, which we should talk about at the end. I also want to talk about the Epstein scandal because there was some developments on that front as well. And we have news that the House has subpoenaed Ghislaine Maxwell, who is currently serving a sentence in prison for her connection to Epstein's crimes. We have the Trump Justice Department, the deputy attorney general, saying that they want to meet with Maxwell and her attorneys to talk about what she knows, what other information she can reveal. And then the Wall Street Journal broke the story this afternoon. The headline justice Department told Trump in May that his name is among many in the Epstein files. Funnily enough, we kind of had a preview of this story from Elon Musk, who, who in the midst of his meltdown on the occasion of his separation from Trump and the Trump administration, posted on X that Trump is in the Epstein files. And according to the Wall Street Journal, that's what Trump was told. He has denied that he's told this. He's not liking much of what the Journal is publishing on its news pages lately. But it shows that this story is, is not going away. And so we almost have this massive kind of collision of scandals happening over D.C. right now. If you think of them as like big weather systems. You have the Epstein scandal, which is touching on the Trump administration. It's involving Congress, of course. Mike Johnson set the sent the House home a day early because he didn't want to have a vote on amendments demanding a relief release of Epstein material. We have a judge in Florida saying that she was denying the Justice Department's request to release grand jury materials she says in her opinion, my hands are tied. So you got Epstein, then you have Russiagate and Gabbard and Obama and Trump. That's there. And then something we've talked about on the show as well. We still have the Biden scandal, the auto pen scandal, the Biden health scandal, the Biden officials coming to the House of Representatives taking the fifth repeatedly.

[Christine Rosen]

Right.

[Seth Mandel]

So there's, it's a summer of scandal in Washington D.C. and I was of the view that Epstein would be a story that maybe we would run two or three weeks, but that Trump would be able to kind of tamp down the inquiries. But it does seem to me now to have taken on a life of its own.

[Matthew Continetti]

But I'm really curious about one thing about the Epstein thing, and I'm glad you said it's like a weather system. I kind of feel like these recent stories in the last few days are like a weird new experimental weather balloon. Because in the, in the kind of dark corners of the Internet and for people who are obsessively following not just politics, but Trump and MAGA in particular, none of this is new. These four, everyone knew about the photos, everyone knew about, you know, all the attendance at the various weddings and the parties and that they had socialized together. This, this had long been non mainstream knowable information. And so what's curious to me is the timing of why this real push to make it mainstream storytelling and that is new. And it speaks also to how our media ecosystem happens to be formed now because the push is coming both from the MAGA extreme right conspiracy people who are like we want the truth, but also from the Democrats. And I think his Trump is caught in a way trying to figure out whom to address and how to answer it, because those are two very different.

[Christine Rosen]

Audiences, I have to say. I just want to add that, that that's my response too, who didn't think Trump. First of all, there's this sort of collapse conceptually between the Epstein files, which is this very broad, ill defined thing, and the Epstein list, which as far as I could tell is a non existent thing, that, that, that would, if it did exist, be a list of blackmail victims or participants. Right. And I think when Musk said something like Trump is in the Epstein files, the implication that he wanted everyone to take from it was that he's on the Epstein list, which I don't think exists in any substantial way. So I agree with you who didn't think that we all, it's very old news that Trump had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein going Back decades, by the way. Similarly, on the other side, it's not particularly new news that the Democrats and the Obama administration was delving into to whatever they could find about Russia, Russia, Russia. So it's kind of a summer of recycled scandal. Okay, but on both sides. Okay, so far.

[John Podhoretz]

Hi everyone, I'm Matt Ever CEO and founder of Crash Champions. Welcome to Pod Crash. On Pod Crash, we'll dive deep with industry leaders and game changers because we want to uncover their secrets to success.

[Christine Rosen]

We're going to explore everything from building.

[John Podhoretz]

Trust, building a rock solid team to champion blue collar work. And we also want to talk about creating explosive growth in your business.

[Christine Rosen]

You'll hear actionable advice, real leadership and.

[John Podhoretz]

Business lessons along with what's worked for these incredible people throughout their career. We're even going to go in depth into what I call a Champions mindset. This is the very philosophy that I use to champion people and take Crash Champions from one single shop to over 650 locations today. And now I want to share that information with you. Watch or listen to pod crash on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christine Rosen]

Hey, this is Donny Deutsch.

[John Podhoretz]

I host the podcast on Brand that comes twice a week. We give you two for the price of one. One day a week we do our big interviews with our big personalities, some of the biggest names in politics, entertainment, culture and business.

[Christine Rosen]

And on the second wave, we do.

[John Podhoretz]

What we call brands of the week. These are the brands that are shaping the zeitgeist. Who's up, who's down, and you can really enjoy both of them. So tune in twice a week to On Brand. You can get them anywhere. You get podcasts, Spotify, Apple, anyplace else. We look forward to seeing you and hearing from you in the increasingly populist politics that we are living through. And in wit, that are by definition difficult to corral because they are populist. Trump does not have the control over this story that he might have thought that he had.

[Seth Mandel]

That's the key to me.

[John Podhoretz]

Right? And why? Because let's. You know how we talk about the Omni cause, about how liberals are obsessed with the Omni cause. Well, how about the Omni scandal? Because Trump's in the Epstein story and Clinton is in the Epstein story and Gates is in the Epstein story.

[Matthew Continetti]

It's actually hyper conspiracy. Not, not just kind of a hyper.

[John Podhoretz]

Conspiracy, a hyper conspiracy. But the point is that the American elites that seem often as though they are at war with each other, right? That Trump is saying Obama should be frog marched to jail. And Clinton says Trump is to. And they all talk about each other and Trump brings the Clinton female accusers to a debate in 2016 and all of that, and yet sit down at a funeral, they're all laughing together. Trump is sitting next to Obama, saying to him, I got something I got to talk to you about later. You know, people are lip reading, seeing.

[Seth Mandel]

You learned that it's about. They were talking about golf, incidentally.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay, fair enough.

[Seth Mandel]

That they were talking about golf at the Jimmy Carter's funeral.

[John Podhoretz]

But they're laughing together. You know, George W. Bush loves Michelle Obama hang out together. He gives her M&M's not a fan of golf. She thinks it's really funny. Okay, but my point is, if you are one of these, if you're a person who says there is this class of people and they are running America for their own benefit, the evidence of that, which is entirely circumstant, I think mostly is nonsense, but nonetheless, it's undeniable and inarguable that the American elite and the American hyper elite are so intertwined with each other that even at this time of extreme polarization, you can discern this pattern in which as long as you're in a certain place, in a certain area, have a certain level of wealth or a certain level of power, you are in some kind of a club together. That is very unnerving to ordinary people. And that is not partisan and it is not particularly ideological. It's what's go, wait a minute, what's going on here?

[Seth Mandel]

And usually Trump isn't in the club and this. And his connection goes back to the time when he kind of was in the club. He was part of. He was, you know, the Clintons were at the wedding. Right. He was a Democrat, so. So that's much nag at him as well. I do have a simpler explanation for. I think what's happening here is that the Democrats smell blood in the water, right? They think that there's something in there that even if it's hearsay, even if it's just some girl saying, oh, well, he was around here and he did this, they want to use it. And I don't even think they have the expectation that it will bring Trump down, because nothing has brought Trump down. I mean, accusations of rape, that Access Hollywood, all these different women accusing him of groping them, nothing has brought it down. I don't think anything in the files will bring him down. But it will be a pain. It will be a pain. It will be an Annoyance. It's just more ways to tie down Gulliver. And so they are pressing the advantage. And then you also have this populist desire for accountability, which you're talking about. And Trump knows that he doesn't want to give anything to the Democrats. And so he's in this position of essentially, he wanted to just stop conversation. As we know, he said, stop talking about Epstein, but he. It's not working.

[John Podhoretz]

And the reason that it's not working is that you can accept that Jeffrey Epstein, okay, there we're asked to accept 17 different things about Epstein, no matter who you are, had this plea deal in 2008 that seemed very generous and undemanding given the nature of what it was that he had accepted guilt for. And he got out. And then he continued to be somebody who went around trying to have meetings at Harvard to raise money, do stuff, introduce people to other people, that kind of thing, until he was we.

[Seth Mandel]

Yeah, he seems to have been this, like, Zelig type figure, right?

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Seth Mandel]

It's crazy, right?

[John Podhoretz]

But even after he got out of jail in Palm beach county, he wasn't gone. He was still around, and people weren't treating him like a total pariah. And you have to. How did that happen? How did a convicted sex offender, a man who pled guilty to being a sex offender, how is he still got all these friends in high places because.

[Matthew Continetti]

They knew that he knew what they did.

[Abe Greenwald]

It works with the theory, even with the theory not being true, which was that they had reason to be afraid that he had incriminating stuff on them, and there was no way to be sure.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay, so right there, you're. You're.

[Abe Greenwald]

Now we. Now. Now we're hearing that that's number one.

[John Podhoretz]

So that stinks. Then he gets re arrested and he gets charged again, and that happens in 2019. And 40 days later, he is found hanged in his jail cell before he can be put on trial. And lo and behold, he was in solitary. He was in a cell that supposed to be watched 24 hours a day because he was on suicide watch. And somebody fell asleep and the cameras supposedly didn't work. Whatever. And then you're being asked to believe that he killed himself, that he paid somebody to make it possible for him to kill himself, maybe. And then. So you're being asked to believe that part is the more you know about.

[Matthew Continetti]

It, plausible to a lot of people.

[John Podhoretz]

It's all plausible. I mean, but the point is every. The more you know about this story, unlike a lot of other things, the more you know about it. The worse it gets.

[Seth Mandel]

Well, the ball of yarn doesn't stop unspooling. That's what I think makes it one of the great conspiracy subjects of all time. Is. You can just keep.

[John Podhoretz]

I have a. Yeah.

[Christine Rosen]

Someone said something to me over the past week about this because I think we all talk about Epstein as if we assume, as I have long assumed that he was involved in some sort of blackmail ring. The, the. The sort of highest level blackmail.

[John Podhoretz]

Ring.

[Christine Rosen]

That you could imagine. Right. But what if he was just money laundering? Is that possible?

[John Podhoretz]

What if, what if, what if.

[Christine Rosen]

Because don't forget Ghislaine Maxwell. She's in jail for trafficking women to Epstein, not to third parties.

[Seth Mandel]

Right. Yeah.

[John Podhoretz]

He's. He.

[Christine Rosen]

He had his own. He had his own illness, his own pathology. Apologies. There's no question. But you know, like so much of this has gotten out of control because we really don't know that anything.

[Matthew Continetti]

They must attended the part. So the other thing is like maybe it's a hangover problem where he got enough of these people to come to his parties where it was later revealed, as you say, Abe, that he was actually procuring underage women for his own use or maybe some other friends uses. But if they were even in the. In the vicinity of that, they now understood themselves to be at risk. Even if he never actually blackmailed them, he had control and power over them in that regard. He knew they were there.

[John Podhoretz]

The point about this conversation that you, Christine and you Abe, are having is that this conversation is completely legitimate. There is no way to shut it down. Right. The story says stinks.

[Seth Mandel]

Right.

[John Podhoretz]

There is no Gerald Posner solution that will tell you after 20 years of deep, you know, 30 years of study that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

[Seth Mandel]

But here's, here's, here's the political point though just to close is that the Trump administration, I think made this mess for itself.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Seth Mandel]

And it, it did so by overpromising and under delivering earlier in the year and then it did so in the beginning of this month by simply believing that it could declare the matter closed by an unsigned memo posted to its website. Yeah. On an evening before a weekend. And had, had they said okay look, we, we've, we've gone through this material. We can't release a lot of it because it contains all these salacious pictures which are count as child pornography and there are all these names mentioned. But there's no, in many cases there's no evidence of wrongdoing. They're just accusations and there's just so much material. How do we present it to the public. Right. Let's have Attorney General Bondi and FBI Director Patel go in front of the public with some documents and then explain we might not be in the situation where we are today. Instead, it was handled in this. In this surreptitious manner, which provoked a lot of dissent from within the coalition. And Trump at first thought that he could just say, stop talking about it, and everyone would stop talking about. But even he, by the end of last week, knew, oh, I'm gonna have to try to do something to give people more answers. They have to get to the point where they're on top of the story and answering questions. They have to do with Tulsi Gabbard. I have to tell you, Gabbard was excellent in the White House press room today. She laid it all out. She answered the questions. When she gets that kind of, you know, that kind of. That bearing she gets, you know, like when she destroyed Kamala Harris. Yeah, it's almost regal, and she's very deliberate. Everything they need to have someone like.

[John Podhoretz]

That say, this is where we are.

[Seth Mandel]

With the Epstein story. Exactly. That's the problem.

[Matthew Continetti]

The political challenge here is there's another one, which is that Trump overreached in assuming that they would do what he said, which is, trust me. He's always said, trust me. This time they said, we want verification. And that's the first time his core believers have really demanded that of him, and he's flailing as a result. I think you're absolutely right, Matt, that.

[John Podhoretz]

Who.

[Matthew Continetti]

Who is that person who could actually persuade them that what they've seen is. Is all they can get?

[John Podhoretz]

And that's the other possibility of where I got it. I got. I'm sorry, because I know you haven't gotten a chance to talk here, but we're, like, past an hour, and we really should talk about Colombia before we. Before we close, because this is a really startling story. Colombia, as we were. The word came out that Colombia is paying a $200 million fine, according to the New York Times, to settle allegations from the Trump administration that it failed to do enough to stop the harassment of Jewish students, part of a sweeping deal reached to restore the university's federal research funding in return for the hundreds of millions in exchange for the return of almost 400 million in research grants. Columbia will pledge to follow laws banning the consideration of race and admissions in hiring. It's kind of striking because the Supreme Court already said they had to do that, but nonetheless, and follow through on other commitments to reduce anti Semitism and unrest on campus that it agreed to in March. It will pay 21 million to settle investigations brought by the EEOC, the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It will. Not only has it agreed to establish the IHRA definition of anti Semitism, it has promised to remove disciplinary actions against campus unrest from the Faculty Senate to the Provost's office, meaning that the faculty will no longer be in charge of the disciplinary procedures of the administration of the school, but the administration of the school will. The deal is with the administration of the school. And the administration of the school is now pledged that it will obey these diktats and these rules. And this is very, very important in 10,000 ways. One of which is that unlike Harvard, which is attempting to litigate its way out of trouble with the Trump administration, Columbia, after this year and a half of hell, or more than a year and a half of hell that it has put its students through, its everybody through Columbia, seems to have sued for peace with some understanding that it has something to gain from suing for peace, by which I mean not only will it get the money back that the administration has pledged to withhold, it has said it was withholding in grants and we'll pay $200 million of the fine to settle charges relating to anti Semitism, but it needed the outside pressure for it to get itself out of this mouse trap that it was in, in which it was going to be trapped and chewing off its own legs to get out of the trap over and over again like three different university presidents. And, you know, all this unrest, more unrest, more unrest. And it's almost as though they are weirdly grateful that they could make this deal with the Trump administration, pay some money to say, okay, now, we can't let you overrun our campus. We can't let you do this. And we had no modality, no way to do this ourselves. So.

[Matthew Continetti]

Well, they lacked courage to do what they should have always done.

[John Podhoretz]

Right? Yeah, no, ultimately it's courage or it's whatever. It doesn't even matter. It's like we. They don't know whether it's courage or not. They don't know what they believe or not. Maybe they don't believe in anything really when it comes down to it, the board of trustees of Columbia, but they just want this to go away. And there was no way for them to make it go away. That's how I'm reading this. And it's a huge moment in this story of the last couple of years and in the story of whether or not a campus that treats its Jewish students, the way that Columbia treated its Jewish students can ever expect to get away with this? Because now that there is this precedent, every university that is being investigated by the Department of Education and the justice department on Title 6 grounds that Jewish students were not protected, there is now this roadmap, this thing that happened with Columbia, that can serve as a template for other settlements at other schools that will either have to do that, or they're going to have to try to follow Harvard's tack of spending endless energy in litigation that they might lose because you know what?

[Abe Greenwald]

And money. They don't have it.

[John Podhoretz]

And money. Well, Harvard has the money and other schools don't.

[Abe Greenwald]

Harvard does. And those other schools don't have the money to do what Harvard's doing.

[John Podhoretz]

And you know what? They did violate tittle. They did violate Title 6, and they did discriminate against Jewish students, and they did do things that should deny them their accreditation or lose them federal funding based on the laws of the United States, given this fact. And Colombia was right to settle under those terms because what it acknowledges having done, it did. It's not pleading to something that it didn't do in order to plead down to a lesser charge so he can get out of this. They're saying, we did it, we're sorry, we're going to pay restitution. Now, maybe there's.

[Abe Greenwald]

Technically, there's no admission of wrongdoing in the settlement. So they don't have to, they, they don't have to actually say no.

[John Podhoretz]

They're just going to pay people tens of millions of dollars to go away.

[Christine Rosen]

No, but I think, I think that's.

[Abe Greenwald]

Common with the settlement.

[Christine Rosen]

But I think Seth's point is important because what happens after the Trump term, you know, it's like, how lasting is it? Listen, I think it's great, you know, and as Seth wrote in a post on Commentary's website months ago, all Columbia, this all started because Columbia refused to protect the civil rights of Jewish students. That's it. That's all they had to do.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Christine Rosen]

They would have retained their million, their billions, and their. And they would have had. Have had no problem. But if they admit no wrongdoing, technically, where does that leave us? Where does that leave posterity here?

[John Podhoretz]

You know, I don't know.

[Abe Greenwald]

There's also a sunset clause in the deal, which is going to make it the sunset. It sunsets at the end of Trump's term, essentially. It's like three years or something like that. So the, the question is, what will Colombia be able to do after that? I Don't they have the key?

[John Podhoretz]

Here's the key, breaking the law. In this set, they may have not acknowledged wrongdoing, but in paying a fine that relates to violations of Title six, I don't know what the distinct. It's again, a distinction without a difference. They have not pled guilty in a courtroom to a civil charge against them.

[Seth Mandel]

I think what this means is there has to be some type of monitoring.

[Abe Greenwald]

That's what there is in the mechanism.

[Seth Mandel]

To ensure compliance at least through the three years of the deal, and then we have to be in a position to continue it. You know, I mean, think about preclearance, where states that had records of discrimination against black voters had to prove to the Justice Department that they were taking the means, pursuing the means necessary to allow black voters access to the polls. There needs to be some type of mechanism here to make sure that they're fulfilling their end of the deal. Or this sense that maybe Colombia avoided the worst outcome may prevail. And also, just we don't know what the effect of this deal will be within Colombia. I mean, earlier arrangements, let's not forget, led to the interim president being knocked out and then having Claire Shipman ascend.

[Abe Greenwald]

So just to answer the questions, because these are things we know the answers to, there is a monitor. The deal does have a monitor for that. And then the other issue is the other answer is that the deal doesn't take effect until Colombia shows to the administration satisfaction that they have initiated the deal. In other words, that not just they agreed to it, there will be a monitor in place. There will be an assistant provost who is going to overlook all the Middle Eastern studies disciplines. And that person is going to have to be in place, the school, the administration has also gotten Columbia to share certain information about applicants and change their application process in some material way. Well, in some ways. So there's a record.

[Seth Mandel]

A record.

[Abe Greenwald]

They ask these questions instead of these or whatever. They're going to have to show the administration that that is what all this stuff starts, the clock. This clock doesn't start ticking until they show that they've put this stuff into play. That makes it harder to squirm out of because they're going to have to, you know, change the way that certain things are done in ways that are hard to switch back. But in terms of, in terms of the three years, that's, I mean, that's really anybody's. I mean, nobody really knows what Colombia wants, what Columbia is going to do or. But we also don't know who's going to be the Columbia president in three years.

[John Podhoretz]

That's the other, not just about Columbia. That's why I wanted to make this point. There are numerous schools that are in the crosshairs of the Trump justice and Education departments on this question of the violations of Title 6 that have caused these withholdings of federal grant money that really now have two paths to follow. They will follow the path of Colombia and try to make peace and a deal which is sane behavior because like I say, they did it. And if they want to go on and pretend for years like they didn't, good luck to them. Because there's iPhone footage proving that they didn't protect Jewish students from discrimination and there's emails from professors and there's grades and there's things that were said in classrooms and there's paths that weren't allowed to be walked down and all of that. Or they can, like I say, decide that they want to martyr themselves and try to contest this in litigation with the hopes that come 20, they can push it so that come 2029 there'll be a new administration that might let them off the hook. But I would, that's not a good bet because there's a 50, 50 chance there won't be a new administrator. There'll be a new administration that will follow the same precepts as this administration. And this is a very, very big moment. And final thing I want to say before we go is that I'm going to say it again. I've been saying it now for months. If you're a Jewish person and you don't understand that this administration has gone the extra mile and miles and miles beyond the extra mile to fight for Jewish people in this unprecedented moment of anti Semitism when they didn't even have the real political reason to do so, given that they know that Jews did not vote in majority numbers for them. I don't again, if you're going to come to me and say, yeah, but you know, they don't talk enough about how terrible right wing anti Semitism is. It's like, I don't want I go, go, go tell, go tell your story walking. Like, go, go find someone else on the street corner.

[Christine Rosen]

John, can I just add to that and say that in the sense that the Trump administration left the known and rumored anti Semites among the MAGA influencers out to dry when it hit Iran and when it worked with Israel on these strikes, that it's, that in itself is actually a move against the right wing anti Semites in a different way.

[John Podhoretz]

Right? I think that's right. But I do think that it's really important that you look at this and say nobody else would have. I mean, I don't think other, other Republican administrations, if there had been, I mean, it's DeSantis administration, might have pursued exactly the same kind of had there been a DeSantis administration. But they didn't have to do this. They didn't have to focus on this. There were 10,000 other things for them to focus on that were important. And they, and they did. And they have been resolute and they have been forceful and they have had the righteousness on their side and they've done something astonishing and extraordinary here and they are continuing, continuing to do it elsewhere. And I don't think that, you know, people don't are required to show gratitude. That's not what I'm even suggesting. But I think that you simple honesty requires that you look at what's happened here and say that somebody stood up for America's Jews at a moment when Jews are more at peril in this country than has likely been the case since 1915 when Leo Frank was lynched in Atlanta. And that's 100 and that's 110 years now. And Jews have felt unsafe. Jews have felt threatened. Jews are still threatened. Jews are being murdered in the streets of D.C. and Denver. And you know, this is a real thing. And somebody is standing up and saying no to the elites that seem to think that it's okay. With Mahmoud Khalil out and about yesterday in Washington with his cute little interview that Abe wrote so brilliantly about today in his in his newsletter and his appearance with Bernie Sanders and all of that. Bernie Sanders is standing there with Mahmoud Khalil and Donald Trump is standing with America's Jews back tomorrow for Abe, Matt, Christine and Seth and John Pohoritz. Keep the camel Bur if you're shopping while working, eating or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers do they get the brands they love savings and cash back. And you can get it, too. Start getting cash back at your favorite stores like Levi's, Plow and Hearth, Adidas, Sephora and Neiman Marcus. Stack sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing the savings and it's easy to use and you get your cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. Stores pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R a k u t e n Rakuten. Com.