Cultural Honors and the Culture War

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast: "Cultural Honors and the Culture War" Release Date: August 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Commentary Magazine Podcast, host John Podhoretz, along with co-hosts Matthew Continetti, Christine Rosen, and Abe Greenwald, delve into the intricate interplay between cultural honors and the ongoing culture war in the United States. The discussion centers around recent developments under the Trump administration, particularly concerning the Kennedy Center Honors and the Smithsonian Institution.

1. Trump’s Takeover of the Kennedy Center Honors

The episode opens with John Podhoretz announcing a significant shift in the administration of the Kennedy Center Honors under President Donald Trump. Traditionally, the Kennedy Center Honors have celebrated a diverse array of artists from various political backgrounds. However, in this iteration, Trump has exerted considerable influence over the selection process.

Key Points:

• Trump’s Involvement: Trump has taken personal control of the Kennedy Center, appointing his aide Rick Grinnell as the director. This move has altered the programming and selection of awardees.

  “Trump has effectively changed the programming. He's setting the seasons, you know, the list of productions each season.” — John Podhoretz [09:33]

• Selection of Honorees: The list of honorees includes figures like Michael Crawford, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait, Gene Simmons of Kiss, and Sylvester Stallone. The selection reflects a blend of classic Americana and figures aligned with Trumpian values.

  “He categorized the honorees in a way that aligns with his aesthetic and political preferences, emphasizing traditional and patriotic figures.” — Abe Greenwald

• Controversial Choices: The inclusion of Sylvester Stallone sparked debate among the hosts. While Stallone is a legendary figure in American cinema, his selection was seen as unconventional compared to previous, more critically acclaimed recipients.

  “Stallone is just not a liberal icon at all, kind of an anti liberal icon. And so that's the interesting pick.” — John Podhoretz [35:42]

2. Smithsonian Institution Under Scrutiny

The conversation shifts to the Trump administration's decision to review the Smithsonian Institution's exhibitions and materials in preparation for the United States' 250th anniversary. This move is perceived as an attempt to realign the museum's content with a more nationalistic and less critical perspective of American history.

Key Points:

• Purpose of the Review: The administration aims to ensure that the Smithsonian's exhibits reflect what they define as "Americanism," potentially curating a more favorable portrayal of American history and culture.

  “In preparation for the 250th birthday of the United States, the material in this museum should reflect what the commanding document of this says is Americanism.” — John Podhoretz [36:00]

• Response from the Academic Community: Sarah Wexler, executive director of the American Historical Association, criticized the review as a major overstep, emphasizing the importance of professional historians and curators in maintaining historical accuracy.

  “Only historians and trained museum professionals are qualified to conduct such a review, which is intended to ensure historical accuracy.” — John Podhoretz [59:19]

• Christine Rosen’s Perspective: Rosen acknowledges the potential for positive change but cautions against a reactionary approach that might oversimplify complex historical narratives.

  “History is a complicated story of lots of mistakes and lots of wonderful things, too. And it should be told in a way where people bicker about what's in the foreground and what's in the background.” — Christine Rosen [52:53]

3. Cultural Legacy and Artistic Merit

The hosts discuss the broader implications of politicizing cultural institutions. They explore how the emphasis on certain narratives and figures may overshadow artistic merit and lead to a homogenized cultural landscape.

Key Points:

• Impact on Artistic Diversity: The selection of honorees like Michael Crawford and Gene Simmons highlights a preference for certain types of performers, potentially sidelining more diverse or critically acclaimed artists.

  “Michael Crawford performed in Phantom of the Opera 36 years ago and nothing of any note since.” — John Podhoretz [18:22]

• Shift in Museum Narratives: There is a concern that museums might prioritize nationalistic narratives over comprehensive historical accounts, thereby limiting the scope of education and cultural appreciation.

  “Putting on garbage shows of third rate art because they were painted by lesbians is not how you curate a major American museum.” — John Podhoretz [62:20]

4. Reactions and Future Implications

The episode concludes with reflections on the potential long-term effects of these cultural shifts. The hosts express both skepticism and cautious optimism about the Trump administration's intentions and the actual outcomes of these policies.

Key Points:

• Generational Challenge: Christine Rosen emphasizes that the transformation of cultural institutions is a generational issue that requires thoughtful implementation to avoid oversimplification of history.

  “These museums are free. They're open to the public. It's wonderful. But what is going on here is very similar to what Trump is trying to do with the universities.” — Christine Rosen [49:58]

• Potential for Institutional Reform: Abe Greenwald suggests that while the initial steps are promising in highlighting existing issues, the success of these reforms depends on the administration's ability to appoint knowledgeable and unbiased individuals to oversee these institutions.

  “Trump brings to light the problems that people have... it makes everyone debate about it. This is the case with crime, with the universities, with whatever.” — Unknown Speaker [55:57]

• Balancing Act: The hosts agree that while rectifying institutional biases is necessary, it must be done without replacing one form of ideological bias with another, ensuring that historical and artistic integrity remains intact.

  “If he thinks he's going to just go back to America's Great and there were no problems, that's not history either.” — John Podhoretz [62:44]

Conclusion

The Commentary Magazine Podcast episode "Cultural Honors and the Culture War" provides a comprehensive analysis of the Trump administration's influence on cultural institutions like the Kennedy Center Honors and the Smithsonian. Through a blend of critical insights and diverse perspectives from the hosts, the discussion underscores the delicate balance between nationalistic narratives and the preservation of historical and artistic integrity. The episode invites listeners to ponder the future trajectory of America's cultural landscape amidst political interventions.

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Notable Quotes:

• “We have surpassed our goal of 20,000 subscribers to the YouTube channel by Labor Day weekend.” — Abe Greenwald [03:00]

• “Trade set the seasons, you know, the list of productions each season.” — John Podhoretz [09:33]

• “All My exes live in Texas and that's why I hang my hat in Tennessee.” — John Podhoretz on George Strait [26:53]

• “Identitarianism is the enemy of aesthetics.” — John Podhoretz [62:20]

• “Trump’s actions bring to light the problems that people have... it makes everyone debate about it.” — Unknown Speaker [55:57]

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Note: The timestamps correspond to segments within the provided transcript, ensuring accurate attribution of quotes and discussions.

Transcript

[John Podhoretz]

Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary hope for the Expect the words Some pre.

[Matthew Continetti]

Champagne some die of thirst no way.

[John Podhoretz]

Of knowing this way it's going Hope for the best expect the worst. Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Thursday August 14th, 2025. I'm John Pot Horitz, the editor of Commentary magazine and Matthew Cottonetti. I believe that you have an announcement to make. Project the Continenti project, yes. Has achieved SpaceX velocity.

[Christine Rosen]

Full velocity.

[Abe Greenwald]

Have liftoff. I just pulling it up right here because. Yep, that's what I thought. I am so pleased to announce this morning, August 14th that the Commentary Magazine Podcast YouTube channel now has more than 20,100 subscribers as of 7:33am Eastern Time, meaning we have surpassed our goal of 20,000 subscribers to the YouTube channel by Labor Day weekend.

[John Podhoretz]

Two weeks.

[Abe Greenwald]

Two weeks.

[John Podhoretz]

Two weeks to go. Ahead of schedule.

[Abe Greenwald]

We clinched, we clinch. We're above and beyond. And this is a testament to our wonderful audience who has responded to my pleas to like and subscribe our videos. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Accost strangers on the street to get them to like and subscribe. Now, a warning for those of you in Washington, D.C. i was going to.

[Christine Rosen]

Say, not in my town.

[Abe Greenwald]

You don't want to go up to strangers in the street anymore because the National Guard might intervene. You know, so. But for those of you in the ambit of my voice who are not part of Trump's D.C. law enforcement experiment, please continue to spread the word about the YouTube channel. Because the more subscribers we get, and we're getting more every day, the more likely our videos go into the algorithm, the YouTube bloodstream, and are elevated and circulated throughout YouTube, which as we now know, is more important a medium than television. YouTube has replaced television now, and so it's a great way for us to talk about politics to people and especially of course, the U. S. Israel relationship and combating anti Semitism around the world and here in the United States.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I add though that this now presents a new challenge for John because I heard about the 20. I mean, on the text chain we celebrated the 20k mark, but I had heard from a very longtime listener of the podcast, devoted fan who has already in a request that John sing Stacy's mom. So we're going to just be inundated with requests for the song that you have to sing.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay, well, so here's I. I did say I would sing a song if we got to 20,000. So I'm now going to propose a challenge. Email us@podcast commentary.org There are two ways I could do this. I could just say, ask, name a song you would like me to sing and then I will pick among your selections. Or I could name three songs and then ask you to pick among one of the three. And then I would go with the. The winner, Stacy's mom. Relatively obscure in some ways. So how do you think we should go?

[Abe Greenwald]

Because I think you should name three.

[John Podhoretz]

All right.

[Abe Greenwald]

So we can have a campaign people to vote.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay. So for you lovers of the Rat Pack, I will name first the song that I actually sang to my wife at our wedding, which is Ain't that a Kick in the Head, Known to all fans of Ocean's Eleven as the song that Dean Martin sings in Ain't that in Ocean's Eleven. That would be one. So that's an upbeat Pepe number. I could sing. Trying to think of a good Broadway selection. I could sing you'll be back from Hamilton, not Abe's favorite. But I could, I could, I could do that. Or let's see, what would be an American standard that sort of fits our, fits our model. And I could just do Yankee Doodle Dandy. So let's do that. Yankee Doodle Dandy. Ain't that a kick in the head?

[Abe Greenwald]

And you'll be break.

[John Podhoretz]

You'll be back. So please [e-mail] and I'm not going to be able to. Probably not. Maybe you'll do it tomorrow. It's our last show before we take a break. We're taking a break next week we will be having pre recorded shows of interest on cultural topics. And so I guess so if you do it Today, Thursday the 14th, I'll pick something. We'll see what works.

[Abe Greenwald]

Are you going to just sing a verse and chorus or do you intend to sing the entire song?

[John Podhoretz]

Well, that's a good question. I think I could probably just do a verse and chorus.

[Abe Greenwald]

I think so too.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not going to go on for more than like 45 seconds or something like that, so. Okay. So that is your reward. Congratulations on achieving this.

[Christine Rosen]

You brought this on yourselves.

[Abe Greenwald]

You did okay.

[John Podhoretz]

And it's funny to talk about cultural products of our time because we have a new cultural product, a long standing cultural product of our time. Given a Trumpian twist this week as Donald Trump, who has made his move to take over control in the administration of the Kennedy the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts, the hideous pavilion of architectural monstrosity that looks over the Potomac river in the shadow of far greater work like the Jefferson Memorial, Lincoln Memorial, of course, he has put his, his aide Rick Grinnell in temporary charge of the Kennedy center. And the Kennedy center of course has and is basically a hiring hall. There's an opera house, there's a, another theater there. There's a movie theater. I don't even know if the AFI even still shows movies there. Whatever. And, and basically it's a place that people rent out to do things.

[Abe Greenwald]

And then the home of the National.

[John Podhoretz]

Symphony and the National Symphony Orchestra and Orchestra.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I interrupt for one second? Because I feel like I've only tied one shoe and I'm out in the world like we have to do our introduction.

[John Podhoretz]

Oh, thank you. Yes. So executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[Unknown]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

And of course, the school marm scolding me, knocking me, grabbing me on the knuckles here for my management. You do, you do. Well, Christine is having some work done at her house and is very interested in establishing her authority, strength and authority with the people who are working in her house, as we've been discussing. So she has just, she's just done some of that here with me in preparation for their arrival later today. Christine Rosen, our social commentary columnist. Hi, Christine.

[Christine Rosen]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

And of course, YouTube master columnist for the Free Press. Funny, funny thing today about Matt Condy's column for the Free Press is that it's about how Trump gained the upper hand on Putin in the negotiations in Alaska. Facing off against the lead headline in the New York Times this morning, which is how Putin got the jump on Trump. So we have you can decide which one you think is more trustworthy. I think we know what the majority of people listening to the sound of my voice would, would agree with. That's of course, Matthew Continetti, our Washington commentary columnist. Hi, Matt.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

Kennedy Center Trump announcing that he will host the Kennedy center honors, which have been given out now for, I don't know, 40, 50 years done as a special on, on, on CBS. And usually there are about seven or eight nominees. It's always interesting during Republican administrations, not Democratic administrations, because Democratic administrations, you know, pick, they'll pick, you know, Bruce Springsteen and then they'll pick Tony Kushner, the playwright. And then they'll pick, you know, the head of the dance company. And they'll, they'll, you know, and then great, a great actor, great Hollywood actor and like that. And very a list Tony sort of thing that people get very excited about on the New York Times art staff. When I was the culture editor of the Washington Times, we would do profiles for two weeks of every one of the Kennedy Center Honor winners. And it was so exciting for Hap Urstein then, our theater columnist, to get interviews with each of these people and write, you know, sort of slavish pieces about how wonderful it was that they were coming to town. And then, of course, Republicans come in and then they want to, you know, be broad minded and full, you know, we don't care about politics. This is really about art. And then they'll pick people and then sometimes people will like refuse because they're not going to get it. Take an award from George W. Bush, given monstrosity coming fascism, all of that. And they end up giving awards to people who have contempt for the Republican voters, Republican conservative ideas and all of that. But they play the game because that is how mostly the culture wars have gone in the United States with mainstream Republicans and the culture at large, which is, we're not gonna fight this. And, you know, at the end of the day, we all love the Mary Tyler Moore show or, you know, something like that. So we can give an award to Mary Tyler Moore, even if she's a liberal, whatever. Right. So guess what? Not anymore. So, Trump, I think there are. This time, I think there are five awards, and one of them is really peculiar.

[Abe Greenwald]

It is.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, yeah. Okay.

[Abe Greenwald]

Why don't we talk about the method of how we got to this place?

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah. So I think, as you mentioned, Trump has taken over the Kennedy Center. He dismissed the chairman of the board. He dismissed the Democratic board members. He made himself the chairman of the board. He appointed his longtime supporter and emissary Rick Grinnell as the director of the Kennedy Center. And he has effectively changed the programming. He's setting the. Working with Grinnell, he's setting the seasons, you know, the list of productions each season. And he decided that he was going to take over the Kennedy Center Honors as well. And so not only did he go to the Kennedy center yesterday to announce the five awardees, but he also announced that rather than some celebrity host for the program. Well, he's a celebrity. He would be hosting. The biggest celebrity in the United States of the world would be hosting the show. He claimed during his remarks that he didn't want to do it. He didn't want to do it. But people came to him and said, sir, you really ought to do it. And he still said no. But then, as always, the key player here was Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, who, according to Trump, said, no, Mr. President, I really think you should do it. And he said, okay, Susie, if you want to. So that's how he explains how he will be hosting the Kennedy Center Honors later this year. And then behind Trump, in the hallway of the Kennedy center, outside the Opera House and the smaller theater, Trump had portraits on easels covered in red shrouds, and his assistants would lift the shroud dramatically, revealing an image of each awardee as he went through the list. And the list is pretty amazing. So you want to start with the list?

[John Podhoretz]

Well, first, let's just say that he said that he was about 98% involved in the selection and that he said, quote, I turned down plenty. They were too woke. I had a couple of wokesters so, and I'm sure he did.

[Abe Greenwald]

He also said that he had long wanted a Kennedy center honor and felt upset that he was never given one. And when he said this line and he, and then he said, you know, I was angry. They've never given me one. I would have said yes if they called. The people in the crowd laughed. And then Trump said, no, I'm serious. By the way.

[Christine Rosen]

Hosting, I think him hosting is going. It's like, do you remember that episode of the Office where Michael Scott demands a roast of himself and then. And then the staff all become extremely enthusiastic about roasting him because they actually have this love hate relationship. I worry that it's going to be like that. I'm not sure he's a great host.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, no, he is a host.

[Abe Greenwald]

He hosted the apprentice for 10, 10.

[John Podhoretz]

Years on the Apprentice. He really didn't host it. That's the weird part. But let's talk about it.

[Unknown]

Will be the most viewed Kennedy honors.

[Abe Greenwald]

Absolutely, Absolutely.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, you're correct. And you know what? We're not getting any, like five minute ballets from Trump's honorees or, you know, like a dance, you know, sort of like some kind of a, or, or an aria. We're not getting any arias. We're not getting any dances. Modern dance might get one dance from.

[Abe Greenwald]

One of the awardees.

[John Podhoretz]

But, okay, so dance. Here are the honorees. So the honorees, I said, one of them is really, really strange. I want to talk about it is Michael Crawford. Okay, who is Michael Crawford? Michael Crawford is a British actor, has been performing since the late 1960s. The first time I was aware of Michael Crawford was that he played with a terrible American accent, the young juvenile lead in the horrible Barbra Streisand movie version of hello, Dolly, which is one of the more excruciating films ever made. He played Barnaby and then did some other stuff. He was the star of a unbelievably bad Disney comic superhero movie called Condor man, which I.

[Abe Greenwald]

Only you, only you would remember that movie.

[John Podhoretz]

Watch the trailer. Go to YouTube and watch the trailer. It is. You can't untamp a very high order. And then out of nowhere is cast by Andrew Lloyd Webber to play the Phantom in Phantom of the Opera, which becomes next to the Lion King, the single most successful theatrical presentation in the history of theatrical presentations. And he sings Music of the Night. And as we know, because when he took over the Kennedy center and they said, what kinds of things would you want to show at the Kennedy Center? He said cats and Phantom of the Opera So what he has done here is chosen the star, a Phantom of the Opera for a Kennedy center honor. Although to be fair. Fair or not to be fair at all, Michael Crawford performed in Phantom of the opera 36 years ago and nothing of any note since. But.

[Christine Rosen]

So this is where. Where it's another example of how Trump's cultural and. And aesthetic tastes are absolutely cast in 80s Amber. I mean, this is. He is such a creature of the 1980s.

[John Podhoretz]

Yes.

[Christine Rosen]

So many. Yes.

[Abe Greenwald]

A few more comments. A few more comments on Michael Crawford, though.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay.

[Abe Greenwald]

The first is, I think this is what you might call a substitute award, because the creator of Phantom of the Opera, Andrew Lloyd Webber, has already received a Kennedy center honor.

[John Podhoretz]

Yes.

[Abe Greenwald]

He was awarded back in 2006. So even though I think that Trump's instinct would probably be to give the award to Andrew Lloyd Webber, who is, you know, pretty Titanic figure in the history of Broadway and American.

[John Podhoretz]

Yes, right.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, you and Kyle Smith debate that on a different episode. But, yes, he is a Tory. He is conservative. He went with Michael Crawford, who. Who originated the role, the Phantom. And, you know, the cast album of that musical was a big success and certainly played in the Continent house when I was a young pup.

[John Podhoretz]

But my apologies.

[Abe Greenwald]

It's okay. It's okay. I enjoyed it so bad. It's.

[John Podhoretz]

I hate.

[Abe Greenwald]

The best part of the announcement of Michael Crawford was one of the weaves that Trump went off on where he talked about how he loves Broadway and that he said, you know, these performers, they are the best performers. And then he corrected him. So he goes, I don't want to get in trouble. They're among the best performers. But he said, they just want. They just want to be on stage. And they do it eight. Eight shows a week, including Wednesday matinees. When you go to a Wednesday matinee, and then he, you said, you know, you go, they. You ask me, do you want to be in television? They say, no, do you want to be in film? They say, no, they only want to be on this. So there was kind of this. Again, if you listen to Trump, and I know it can be hard sometimes, you get these insights into his personality. And in this case, it was like this. He really likes going to musical theaters. I think he's been tormented by the fact that the people that he likes despise him so much. And so now he has Michael Crawford, who will sing from Phantom of the Opera.

[Unknown]

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[John Podhoretz]

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[Abe Greenwald]

Yes.

[John Podhoretz]

Which I believe, Matt, you like, I serious XM listeners in the car, you are likely to hear I Will Survive twice a week even now. Oh, what channel? What? The bridge.

[Abe Greenwald]

Oh, they don't play disco bridge, John.

[John Podhoretz]

I will try. It's not really disco.

[Unknown]

It is the epitome of disco.

[Christine Rosen]

I'm with Abe.

[John Podhoretz]

It is a word song. It is a story song. So it is not. Okay. Anyway, I Will Survive. Gloria Gaynor, the great liberation from the bad husband and the statement of freedom from the conventional American marriage.

[Unknown]

Also could be a Trump anthem.

[John Podhoretz]

That's true. Fair enough, right? Yes. Anyway, Gloria Gaynor, ordinarily you would want, you would have at the Kennedy center somebody with a larger and longer and more distinguished career with many hits. But Gloria Gaynor is, and I assume we are, we have cleared Gloria Gaynor on the Trump acceptability scale that she would not have been chosen otherwise. Then we move along to George Strait, the country singer. Not necessarily the country singer you would pick first if you're trying to pick at the age that George Strait is, because there are many other probably greater, you know, or more successful country singers that you could play pick. And of course, George Straits legendary song, which I'm sure is something that is near and dear to Trump's heart thematically, is all my exes live in Texas and that's why I hang my hat in Tennessee.

[Abe Greenwald]

Now, I think this is an interesting pick because it's not Lee Greenwood has kind of given the anthem for MAGA and who Trump has lavished with praise in the past and I believe gave some sort of. Oh, he actually appointed Lee Greenwood to the Kennedy center board.

[John Podhoretz]

So perhaps maybe that would have been a good.

[Abe Greenwald]

This was Lee Greenwood saying, hey, you know, who deserves the award is George Strait. And I have to say of the, of the nominees, this one and then and the actor who we might talk about next, they make the most kind of historic sense to me. They seem they would show up in any program. So I actually think the George Strait.

[John Podhoretz]

Pick is, is a great pick.

[Abe Greenwald]

Recently saw a graph online, it may have been put up by Ted Joya about how essentially country music is now the only viable popular music form.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

And it just so happens that country music not in its entirety, but largely maps onto MAGA and Red America. And so this makes perfect sense to me to get one of the best songwriters to, to award him.

[John Podhoretz]

Absolutely. And others obviously who are legendary in this respect have already right One Willie Nelson's one Garfield.

[Abe Greenwald]

Dolly, I'm sure Dolly Parton.

[John Podhoretz]

Dolly probably has won five. Dolly should get one every year. Okay, so George Strait. Then we have Chaim. Vets of Haifa, born in Haifa, led a press conference during the first Trump administration talking about the, you know, the wonders of America. That of course is Gene Simmons, known by his American slave name, Gene Simmons and his band Kiss. Abe, as our Kissologist, please dilate here.

[Unknown]

Fully, fully deserving. Kiss has always been this pro America, patriotic and at least Gene and Paul right wing band, you know, in the. I remember for me as a kid they were like part of the bicentennial celebration because they put out their own poster of them dressed up as like revolutionary soldiers. And you know, so to me they were always mixed in with everything I thought about, you know, like the greatness of America in the 70s. And by the way, that that is very much like a part of what they are about. And they're. Gene was also on the Apprentice has relationship with Trump. There's a beautiful. It's probably more than one, but at least one interview where Gene Simmons talks about his mother immigrating to this country.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, he did that from the podium of the White House press room. Yeah. During the Free for All. That was the first Trump administration's White House press room where he sort of ran a press conference and talked about his mother.

[Unknown]

And they always employ veterans on tour. They're also great. And you know, they've been around forever.

[John Podhoretz]

So I'm gonna disagree with you.

[Unknown]

God bless Kiss.

[John Podhoretz]

I'm gonna disagree with you on their greatness. Two funny things about Kiss, as far as I'm concerned, one of which was when they came about and they were this glam rock band, right, with the. Who played this game where they wore costumes and makeup and they were like, couldn't see their faces and stuck out their tongues, the tongues and everything like that. And. And the. The idea was that they were another form of rock epitane, the bourgeoisie. Like they were transgressive. And you know, this was like. So other people were biting the necks of live chickens on stage. They were coming out looking like every parent's worst nightmare. Demonic, slightly. Right. Satan kind of satanistic, coded the way that they looked. And then it turned out that they were basically like a child's rock band. How did you know that? Because they made a movie, a TV movie. Their only movie is called Kiss meets the Phantom of the park, which was a TV movie made for NBC in which there is a Phantom of the Opera character Not played by Mike Crawford.

[Abe Greenwald]

This is a creative possibility.

[John Podhoretz]

They could remake it with Michael Crawford. And he is. It's an amusement park and he's been injured at the amusement park and is doing all kinds of stuff. And then KISS shows up to perform a concert at the amusement park. And it turns out that they have supernatural powers and they save the children of the park with their supernatural powers. And it is basically like an 11:30 Saturday morning cartoon.

[Christine Rosen]

Okay, but that was a reaction to what you said earlier, which is. And obviously I grew up in a slightly weird environment as a child. But they were definitely coded Satanist. They were like among the bands that we would like, listen to the records backwards to find the coded satanic messages in school assemblies. So I think part of that was a PR effort to say, oh, no, we're just, you know, we're fun loving, we love the children. We're not going to sacrifice them to.

[John Podhoretz]

No, I know, but that was what was interesting. But Metallica wouldn't have made Metallica meets the Phantom of the Park.

[Unknown]

But it's also part of their promotional marketing genius. Like they wanted to get. They got the generation young like me. They'd have me in my 50s. As they do.

[Abe Greenwald]

Are they unlike the. The other nominees or awardees we've just talked about in that they have more than one hit. I know they rock.

[Unknown]

They have. They have big albums, but. And, and huge tours, an unbelievable merchandise business. But they didn't have a lot of hits. Beth was a hit.

[John Podhoretz]

It was minor hit. Yeah. I don't even know what that is. That's what I'm saying.

[Unknown]

It's a bad.

[John Podhoretz]

I don't know, but.

[Unknown]

But they had some hits in the 80s. Yeah, I think. Lick it up.

[Abe Greenwald]

I just, I. I missed the Kiss phenomenon. So I'm. I'm wondering if someone wants to learn.

[John Podhoretz]

The answer is no.

[Abe Greenwald]

Asking the expert here if someone wants to learn more.

[John Podhoretz]

You know, they got to 32 on the American top 40.

[Christine Rosen]

Like Donald Trump. They were in the cultural bloodstream all throughout the 80s, in a way.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, of course. But I just. I was just asking Abe, because he's a fan, if there's a gateway, that there's an album or something he'd.

[Unknown]

Okay. Beth, by the way, reached number seven in 1976.

[Abe Greenwald]

Okay, I'm gonna listen to that.

[John Podhoretz]

I don't even know what that is. It's a song, I gather. It's a song.

[Unknown]

I was Made for love.

[Abe Greenwald]

Maybe you should sing it, by the way, for the award.

[Unknown]

I was made for loving you. Another disco song went to 11 in 1979.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. Ordinarily you would have somebody who had like many number one hits winning the Kennedy center hours, but I'm not going there because I accept that it is fine in part because this is an award for all the Israeli olim here in the United States. Made. Made his. Made. Made his way to the United States and loves Israel. I love that. I'm not, I'm.

[Abe Greenwald]

He'll make a great speech too, I'm sure.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. I'm not being ironic here. I think that it is a pointed thing that this award was given this year and I now want to celebrate the final winner, as you would say, probably the most author of an Academy Award winning film, a recent Academy Award winning nominee for his reboot, playing the role in a reboot of that film star of a huge hit on Paramount plus Tulsa King. But most importantly, from my point of view, a man who spoke the mourner's kaddish in Rocky 2 when Mickey dies and Sylvester Stallone says is, is, is basically prompted to say the mourners Kaddish by Mickey's rabbi in a mausoleum in Los Angeles. And it's a deeply touching moment for all Jewish people everywhere. And therefore the awarding of the Kennedy center honor to Sylvester Stallone.

[Abe Greenwald]

Oh yeah, huge.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. If he would only say the Shaheki honor when he wins.

[Abe Greenwald]

When you were wondering, when you were listing his accomplishments and you were saying which is the most meaningful, I thought you were about to say and former husband of Brigitte Nilsen.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, that also, that to me stands out by Trump also, I'm sure was would be a very big.

[Christine Rosen]

So can I. This is an impromptu recommendation because when, when I saw Sylvester Stallone's name on there and I was thinking about all the Rambo movies again, the cultural impact of those movies on a lot of young people in particular. But on, but on Trump in his heyday in the 80s is important. And there's a great. For listeners who don't know about this is a quirky little British comedy called Son of Rambo R A M B O W came out about, I don't know, like 15 years ago. It is adorable. It's about these British schoolboys who sort of try to make a Rambo movie inspired by First Blood. And it is adorable and cute and it's, it's very sweet. But it also just shows you the, the cultural reach and power of these what at the time were just schlocky action movies that we all went and saw in the theater.

[John Podhoretz]

But I mean, look Sylvester Stallone has had a 50 year career. As I say, his first major wasn't his first movies. First movie was Bananas, in which he is seen menacing Woody Allen on a subway platform and beating up an old lady while Woody Allen is reading an issue of Commentary magazine. One of the great shots in publication history. That was his first movie. But you know, he wrote, he wrote this legendary story, wrote the screenplay. He would. He refused to sell it for a million dollars because he said I have to act in it. Got the part, this extraordinary movie that changed the sort of reinvented or reintroduced the sports movie, the boxing movie, the urban fairy tale.

[Abe Greenwald]

Working class America.

[John Podhoretz]

Working class America. It remains a masterpiece. And you know, he never did anything better. But for that alone, it's kind of like, it's almost like a kind of populous Citizen Kane. If he had done nothing but this the way Orson Welles had done, he.

[Abe Greenwald]

And then he, and then he turned to Rambo and he. Yes, he affected the change of Rambo from First Blood.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

Where Rambo in its original conception of course was the victim of the war in Vietnam. Someone who came home and like many veterans came home from Vietnam to find that many people, young people in particular, despised them, thought that, you know, viewed the veterans as kind of mercenaries or killers. And in the first Rambo based on the original novel, this drives Rambo crazy and essentially, you know, fights a small town in the Pacific Northwest.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. The deranged Vietnam war vet in First Blood. Then we get, then we get.

[Abe Greenwald]

Oh, the masterpiece First Blood Part 2, where Stallone I think played a part in this, in reimagining Rambo.

[John Podhoretz]

He co wrote the screen.

[Abe Greenwald]

Exactly. Instead of as a victim, actually a hero, a symbol of American patriotism. And in a amazing moment happening at the beginning of the Reagan era, basically a revenge fantasy on, on North Vietnam, on the communists in Vietnam when he goes back to retrieve his, his comrades. And I'm a, I'm a big Rambo fan. I'm more of a Rambo guy than a Rocky guy.

[John Podhoretz]

But if we move on to the fact that Rambo movies were being made into the 20th century, 21st century. I think the last Rambo movie, which was actually called Rambo, as no movie actually called it was. It's Rambo 4, but it was actually. Its name was Rambo is about Rambo going and helping to liberate the Karen rebels in Burma from the crit, from the hunter. Yeah. This Christian minority that was being oppressed by this is where Stallone starts coding as a kind of evangelical and stuff like that. So that's part of the reason that his reputation has not been the greatest in Hollywood. He was one of the two biggest stars in motion pictures for 15 years. He and Schwarzenegger were the two biggest stars in the world, without question. Like, nobody even came close to them. And then in the late 90s, his star began to fade and has been. And has been relit.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yes.

[John Podhoretz]

Not only by a wonderful performance in this reboot of Rocky, the Creed Fairies, where he played a Rocky training Apollo Creed's son in a beautiful performance that he should have won the Oscar for, but he is also on this terrific, funny Taylor Sheridan show, Tulsa King, which is about a Mafiosi who gets out of jail for 25 years and is promptly sent to Oklahoma to get him out of, you know, the Brooklyn mob. And it's really funny. Yeah. You know what's interesting, really funny in.

[Abe Greenwald]

It, is that the Schwarzenegger comparison, Stallone in his late years, his late style, has been more successful than Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has not been. He's tried to kind of recapture some of that magic after his exit from politics.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

But he has not been able to do it. The show on Netflix, fubar, is not good.

[John Podhoretz]

Not good.

[Abe Greenwald]

The movies haven't really been up. There's nothing really there. And it's interesting because Schwarzenegger is now doing motivational speaking more than anything else. That's his main line. Whereas Stallone, I think a testament to his artistry, is still writing and still shaping the iconic characters he originated and then doing this great performance on the show, Tulsa King, which is very entertaining.

[John Podhoretz]

Anyway, so this is only an unconventional award in the sense that the critics of the New York Times would look down their noses at Stallone. Right. And. And they would think, well, you know, it's not like giving an award to Paul Newman long. That's a ridiculous comparison, because Paul Newman's been dead for 15 years. But, you know, not giving an award to Robert Redford or. It's not like giving an award to even, you know, a committed filmmaker like Sean Penn or something. You know what, however you want to slice it, like, he was always a populist figure. He was never a critics darling, except for Rocky, which he won an Oscar for, for the screenplay. And so he's never been anything. He's never had that aura. Quite the opposite. And so that is where Trump's countercultural impulses pop out in a very interesting way, because unlike the kind of. It's not that he chose Scott Baio, he did choose Sylvester Stallone. Who is a major, one of the great movie stars of the last hundred years and tallying up his box, how he stands, what he represents, all of that, but he's just not a liberal icon at all, kind of an anti liberal icon. And so that's the interesting pick. And maybe now we can use that to, to move on to the more interesting, in some ways, cultural news of the week, which was the announcement, which should not have come as a surprise to anybody because it was telegraphed in June that the Trump administration is now insisting that a review be done of the exhibitions, permanent exhibitions, the literature and the material surrounding and on display at the Smithsonian Institution, which is a network of 17 or 18 museums, something like that, of course, in the, in the D.C. area, most famously the Smithsonian Institution, the most visited museum in the country, which is, you know, has the space shuttle and, you know, all that stuff. But you know, the National Gallery, the National Gallery of Art, the National Portrait Gallery, the African American Art Museum, the Hirshhorn Modern Art Museum, and you know, the Museum of the American Indian, all of these, all of these museums. And the idea is that in preparation for the 250th birthday of the United States, the material in this museum should reflect what the commanding document of this says is Americanism. Of all the things, aside from the strike on Iran that I am the most excited about about the Trump administration is this move on the Smithsonian. I cannot maybe also the, you know, the anti Semitism, the war on the universities of which it is connected, because this is a world that has remained untrammeled as it has moved from being the place that was supposed to be the repository of Western culture and the statement that the United States was now the center of Western culture and was going to be its defender, its protector, its exhibitor and its explicator. And over the last few, 40 years, but really over the last 20 years, these museums and the world of museums and the world of museums that are owned and run by the federal government has turned toward anti Americanism. And anybody who says otherwise or says, no, no, no, we're just now telling the truth. Because before all of the harsh facts of American life and Western art and all that were being covered is a factitious hypocritical liar. They know perfectly well what they're doing. They know perfectly well what they've done. There are the documents that are produced by the world of the museum director, the world of the museum executive, the world of the museum panels, and all of that says we are here to correct the Sins and errors of the past. We are here to elevate certain forms of ethnic and identity art over the classic Western, white, dead male art. And all of that is reflected in the catalogs in the wall cards that describe each picture and all of that. And if they form a good panel, serious, you know, I could name 10 people I would put on that panel right now off the top of my head, Michael J. Lewis, our architecture critic, Wilfred Maclay, the American historian Dana Joya, the former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities, Gary Saul Morrison, the Russian literature professor at Northwestern, Joseph Epstein, another Commentary contributor and others. And now, if you're just talking about art, there's a whole bunch of. Eric Gibson, who runs the arts page of the Wall Street Journal.

[Abe Greenwald]

Do you think this is more about the art side or the history side?

[John Podhoretz]

Well, but I mean, there's no.

[Abe Greenwald]

I have a feeling this is about the Museum of American History, but there's particular.

[John Podhoretz]

But there's no separating in some way. There's very little way to separate the two. And in a piece Eric Gibson published in the Wall Street Journal in June, he noted that the head of the. I'm trying to find it because I think I sent you guys a link, but I don't have it here. He, the head of one of these museums acknowledged, in trying to make some kind of peace with the administration, which was coming after it hammer and tongs, that this is Kim, Kim Sadjit, the director of the National Portrait Gallery. So that's art, right? The National Portrait Gallery is portraits, is literally dedicated to portraiture of, you know, Americans. And others said, so it's history, but it's also art. Here's. Here's Eric. Okay. At least since the 1990s, when the Smithsonian American Art Museum, then the National Museum of American Art, mounted the infamous the west as America, reinterpreting images of the Frontier 1820-1920, which offered a harshly revisionist view of the landscape paintings of Albert Bierstadt, Thomas Moran and others. Politics has informed the Smithsonian programming. Reviewing the National Museum of American History's American enterprise exhibition in 2015, Edward Rothstein observed that Andrew Carnegie built the nation's largest steel company, but little else. Not even his philanthropy is mentioned here other than his authoritarian ways, which included ruthlessly slashing labor costs. And. And Kim Sad said, essentially acknowledged in this letter in June that something had to be done to examine. It's always a good time to examine our ideas. Yeah, go ahead.

[Christine Rosen]

This is where. So I've lived in D.C. for 30 years. I am a first on The Hill. So I went to all the Smithsonian museums all the time. And then, of course, I raised kids in D.C. air and space Museum.

[John Podhoretz]

We were.

[Christine Rosen]

I was there probably several times a month. These museums are free. They're open to the public. It's wonderful. But what is going on here is very similar to what he. What Trump is trying to do with the universities, and that is tackle a massive institutional intellectual rot that is many, many decades in the making. And so I see two challenges ahead. This is a good first step. It's good for him to say, let's review. And actually, one of the things that's not being discussed much in the critique of his announcement is something that's probably long overdue, which is just an accounting of the holdings of these. Of this institution. They have massive quantities of things never on display to go through and kind of catalog all that stuff and hopefully maybe digitize some of the content that researchers could then have access to. Hugely important and probably long overdue. But the placards. I just want to say a little thing about the placards. I watched in real time this shift happen when I would take first my toddlers, then my elementary school kids, and then go with high schoolers to these museums. You could see the tone shift. And it was quite subtle at first, and it was more about a sin of omission. So it's not just that they would. Now we know they had displays the Smithsonian about, you know, white culture that were ridiculous. That was an. That was the end point. But all along the way, you would just see certain things removed. So why did people flee Cuba? Well, it's because we'd supported radical, you know, horrible Batista. You know, it was all US fault. No mention of Castro, no mention of communism. And you would see this, you know, whether there was a silent film star that was featured in a placard. It was all about how they stood up against racial injustice and by saying or doing this. All of it was just very subtle framing. And the Bierstadt, the attack on Bierstadt's amazing artwork is another example of this. It is both art, it's history, it's all. All of the cultural heritage of the American people being very subtly tweaked here and there. And no one really noticed at the time except conservatives who would often, you know, go to review an exhibit and go, well, why don't they mention all this other stuff? Carnegie did, and it was dismissed. Mainstream culture allowed this gradual reframing, this omission of some of the positive aspects of some of the people featured in these exhibits. And now Trump comes in and says, this is too woke. Let's fix it. And everyone overreacts and says this is authoritarian. It is a very small first step to go back to some sort of semblance of what we should do. And on this, I will say I get to pull the as a historian card. He's, his impulse is potentially as damaging as some of the woke impulse. If he thinks he's going to just go back to America's Great and there were no problems, that's not history either. History is complicated story of lots of mistakes and, and lots of wonderful things, too. And it should be told in a way where people bicker about what's, what's at the foreground and what's in the background. But he is a reactionary and we do kind of need a reaction to the culture of museums that has developed over the last 50 years. So I welcome it too, in that sense, with cautious hopefulness that he will, as you say, John, appoint thoughtful historians.

[Abe Greenwald]

I'm fine with the America is great. We have no problems when, when we're presenting ourselves to the world and to children, which is what these museums are supposed to be. But I take all of your points, Christine. I just point out two things. One is a lot of this review is based on a Titanic personnel struggle that the White House is having with Lonnie Bunch, the chairman of the Smithsonian Institution, who is a partisan and who is very much part of the left. And Trump is furious that Bunch won't resign, allowing Trump to take over the Smithsonian like he's taken over the Kennedy center and other institutions.

[Christine Rosen]

And he can't because it's, it's an independent board and Congress.

[Abe Greenwald]

Exactly. So he can't fire him. So instead, what he were doing is this review to again, to add more pressure to the Smithsonian in the same way as we've been discussing, Trump has put pressure on the universities. I'd also recommend Trump administration get in touch with the folks behind the Victims of Communism Memorial Museum, which is a very small museum here in Washington, D.C. it is expertly, expertly done. It's a, it's a excellent introduction to the Cold War into the Bolshevist phenomenon. It goes through the history and actually tells the parts of history that are often left out by the left, which is that communism had many, many victims. And it's the type, I think, of experience that would enliven the American, the Museum of American National Museum of American History, which is, in my lived experience, the world's most Boring museum. I mean, just. It puts you to sleep.

[Christine Rosen]

I know. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be.

[Abe Greenwald]

No, and it should be. It should be an adventure, and it should be about the American spirit.

[John Podhoretz]

So.

[Abe Greenwald]

So that's kind of where I would point them to. But this is, I think, as you say, Christine, it's just a first step. And not much will be able to happen until Mr. Bunch vamooses.

[John Podhoretz]

There is also a.

[Unknown]

Can I say something? As with so many things that Trump does here, these first steps are so important because he brings to light the problems that. That people have. I mean, we've known about them, but. But that the general public has not been aware of or has ignored or things that have been kicked. Kicked down the road, you know, and when he first shines his light, it makes everyone talk about. It makes everyone debate about it. It puts it on the front pages. And that is. That is at least you get this shift in the conversation. This is the case with, you know, crime, with the universities, with whatever. It's the case with the border and immigration, too. I mean, if, you know, going back. So his first steps are really like, you know, they have these reverberations that are deeply important no matter what he gets done. You know, as a matter of fact.

[Matthew Continetti]

Hi, everyone. I'm Matt Ebert, CEO and founder of Crash Champions. Welcome to Pod Crash on podcrash will die. Dive deep with industry leaders and game changers because we want to uncover their secrets to success. We're going to explore everything from building trust, building a rock solid team, to champion blue collar work. And we also want to talk about creating explosive growth in your business. You'll hear actionable advice, real leadership and business lessons, along with what's worked for these incredible people throughout their career. We're even going to go in depth into what I call a champions mindset. This is the very philosophy that I use to champion people and take Crash champions from a single shop to over 650 locations today. And now I want to share that information with you. Watch or listen to pod crash on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Unknown]

I'm Oliver Darcy.

[John Podhoretz]

And I'm John Passantino.

[Unknown]

We have spent years covering the inner workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood and power. Now through our nightly newsletter status.

[John Podhoretz]

And we're bringing that same reporting and sharp analysis to a new podcast, Power Lines.

[Unknown]

Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest stories shaping the industry, explaining why they matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud.

[John Podhoretz]

No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis that isn't afraid to call it like it is. We also pull back the curtain via our exclusive reporting to take you behind behind the scenes.

[Unknown]

My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up.

[John Podhoretz]

Oh my God. That's Power Lines presented by Status Follow power lines and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast app.

[Christine Rosen]

Well, in that and that's important because he has on a couple of other smaller scale projects then appointed what's the one he has on? Is there one on religion? He's appointed certain commissions and they're full of really interesting Religious Liberty Commission had.

[Abe Greenwald]

A meeting at the at another great museum, the Museum of the Bible here in D.C. right.

[Christine Rosen]

And he so you don't what you don't want Reactionaries and revolutionaries write poor histories in general. You need them to shake things up and they can tell their own stories firsthand. But you do need people who have some distance from the scrum to tell the story. And so there are lots of those people and we should hope that he will reach out to more of them.

[John Podhoretz]

But I think Abe's right in the Trump ID sense that not only does he surface these issues, but he surfaces exactly the kind of attacks on him or on the effort that invalidate or discredit the people who are attacking him at the same time, listen to Sarah Wexel, the executive director of the American Historical association who is responding to the White House announcement of the wide ranging review. A major overstep. She says she leads the country's largest group of professional historians. I was unaware that professional historians needed a group.

[Christine Rosen]

Oh, AHA is very powerful in the academic history. I used to be a member as a grad student.

[John Podhoretz]

There are more than 10,000 members of the professor. There are more than 10,000 professional historians apparently in the United States because that's how many members this group has. Quote, only historians and trained museum professionals are qualified to conduct such a review, which is intended to ensure historical accuracy. To suggest otherwise is an affront to the professional integrity of curators, historians, educators and everyone involved in the creation of solid evidence based content.

[Christine Rosen]

AHA has been politicized for decades. They issue statements about politics constantly. They should. The fact that she wants to pull her we're professionals here mantle on is should be completely ignored.

[John Podhoretz]

Let's talk about the last five years in the world of arts and arts administration because there have been radical turnovers at the heads of many museums, galleries, historical associations and otherwise done not at the behest of the search for historical accuracy, but in the wake of George Floyd Black Lives Matter ideological hysteria, which have caused museums to fire curators and directors, for curators and directors to step down under pressure from their boards to be replaced by people who are activists and not historians and not trained museum professionals, but rather, as I said, agitators to calm them down, to settle them down. Because these groups, like the aha, either are active participants in the spreading of this new false gospel of non Americanism or anti American or whatever you want to call it. Either they are bystanders, either they are active participants, or they are the classic milk toast liberals who have no antibodies against the assault on everything that they are supposed to hold dear, which is historical accuracy or context or aesthetics. What about pure, simple aesthetics? Putting on garbage shows of third rate art because they were painted by lesbians is not how you curate a major American museum. Identitarianism is the enemy of aesthetics, which sort of essentially assumes that you're supposed to experience things almost without context. You bring in context to illuminate what the artist is up to. You don't bring in context to say that this is important because it is an expression of a political or ideological movement.

[Christine Rosen]

But identity studies in the museum world has been a multi generational thing now. And this is actually. Matt, this is why the Museum of American History is boring, because they've outsourced all. You know, there's Native American history, there's history of African Americans. Everything's been siloed with identity politics. And so the careful, cautious. We don't want to upset anyone. Museum is now the Museum of American History.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, right, because their solution to identitarianism was to turn to material history.

[Christine Rosen]

Right?

[Abe Greenwald]

So you walk in to the exhibit on, you know, the wagon train, and instead of seeing a big diorama and, you know, being immersed in an environment or you see behind glass, you know, here are some pots. You know, here's a hubcap from the.

[Christine Rosen]

Model First Model T Pioneer Lesbian Journal page.

[Abe Greenwald]

Here's, here's a box of trinkets we found. I mean, it's, it's mind numbing.

[John Podhoretz]

It is.

[Abe Greenwald]

Trump will make it spectacular.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. He'll add some. Here's ornamentation, a lot of gold.

[Christine Rosen]

I do worry a little bit about.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, no, no, no. But I mean, you know, in another universe, a person like Sarah Wexel under assault as the world of every person involved in the effort to promote the storehouse of human knowledge and. And. And the continuance of the ability of the young to understand the world that they live in through the study of the past. Would be as excited as I am by the fact that the President of the United States and his administration are like the cavalry riding in to save the day from the destruction of their disciplines.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah. Where were they when people were toppling statues of our founding Fathers a few years ago? I didn't hear from them.

[Abe Greenwald]

That's the best part, is when they say, how dare Trump politicize the Smithsonian? How dare Trump politicize the Kennedy Center Honors? Oh, you know, those artists, they've never brought any political messages to the Kennedy Center. I do have one, you know, small caution, which is I would prefer that no one go near my favorite Smithsonian museum, which is the Sackler Gallery of East Asian Art. It's very small. It's underground. It's kind of hidden away.

[John Podhoretz]

People.

[Abe Greenwald]

It seems to have avoided a lot of the noxious trends we've been talking about. So just keep that, you know, it's a little secret.

[John Podhoretz]

And it's still called the Sackler? I think, so.

[Abe Greenwald]

I don't think they've. I don't think they've renamed it. I could be wrong.

[John Podhoretz]

That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's the last.

[Abe Greenwald]

Because no one pays attention to it, but it's right. You know, it's near the castle.

[John Podhoretz]

And the Sackler name will ever be on anything positive. Oh, my God.

[Abe Greenwald]

It's one of my favorite museums.

[John Podhoretz]

My favorite Smithsonian museum. Not. I mean, my. The one that I think people should visit. That is weird. Is absolutely, like, jaw dropping. But it's not in D.C. proper. Is the wing of the Smithsonian dedicated to, which is in Chantilly near Dulles Airport, which is essentially a giant airplane hangar where they have, I don't know, 200 aircraft. You know, the course of American aviation and that. And, you know, that is like if you have a.

[Christine Rosen]

And they have airplane simulator rides for the little kids.

[Abe Greenwald]

And they had a space. They had a space. I think they're moving the space shuttle out.

[John Podhoretz]

But yeah. Anyway, it is an amazing place. And my experience, having gone four or five times, is that nobody is ever there, because it is. It is. You know, it's a 20 miles from, so downtown D.C. so it's not, you know, you can't. You can't walk there from the Smithsonian. And so if you're ever in. If you're ever, you know, in and around D.C. and you rented a car or you have. Or you drive into dc, get yourself to Chantilly and go, I can't remember the name of the.

[Christine Rosen]

Melvin Hazy or Uday or. It has a weird sort of.

[John Podhoretz]

It has a weird name.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah, there it is. But if you fly into Dulles, if you're, if you're coming from, say, like, you know, the west coast or something, and you land at Dulles, build in a cup. You can just build in a few hours, take an Uber there, and then you can actually go back to. And take the silver. I mean, you. It's near Dulles. It's not far.

[John Podhoretz]

It's near Dulles. It's like five miles from the dollar from Dulles Airport. Anyway, it's. It's really a wonderful thing, and it's very hard to politicize that. It's one of the reasons that it is such a, such a, such a pleasure to. Such a pleasure to go to. But anyway, I, I just think that I wanted to talk about this on the show because I know that very, very little is going to be said about this in a tone that I think is correct, which is. It's not like, yeah, give it to those commies. And, you know, what we really need is, you know, cowboy. We need paintings of cowboys. That's what we need. That's not. What I'm talking about is Western civil. The glories of Western civilization and the highlights of American culture should be the subject. And not just American culture, as you mentioned the Sackler. You know, there are. But I mean, the highlights of world culture should be the subject of this museum, not the sins and depredations of the West, America, capitalism or anything else. And it is a great thing that this may be taken up. It does matter how it's taken up.

[Christine Rosen]

This is where I have to say I think our enthusiasm is understandable, but should be tempered by the realization, just as it was when we discussed the universities and the need for transformation there. This is a generational challenge in the museum world, and it's one that I think conservatives have long been arguing for. This could be the shakeup that slides starts it. But Trump would just put cowboys up there. That's, that's. And so that's why drawing that fire to him, if he's smart enough and he implements these policies with smart people who know what they're doing, that will be great. But it would be very easy to see the doubling down that we're already seeing in the press and have this be a missed Opportunity. Long term. He's got it. Implementation really matters for this kind of thing.

[Unknown]

But, you know, I just want to say, I think it takes the guy who would put cowboys up there to start it.

[John Podhoretz]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Clearly in so many areas.

[Christine Rosen]

That's true.

[Unknown]

It's like. Yeah. Because anyone with any sense of caution is gonna say, yeah, this is too. You know what? There's a lot going on here. I'm gonna. It's not someone else.

[John Podhoretz]

It's also not just caution. It is the cultural intimidation.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[John Podhoretz]

Of the cultural elite, which is, you know, you don't know. And you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what the hell you. Who are you? Yeah, you know, tell me, tell me, what century was Anglais born in? Huh? Come on, tell me. Come on. Oh, you don't know that you're gonna change my museum like that? That kind of thing?

[Christine Rosen]

Well, elite overproduction has made this a challenge that I think a lot of normal people, people who aren't populist MAGA types and people who aren't the culturally. Look at all of these people saying things like that and going, who are these? Like, how are these people even employed in this economy?

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Christine Rosen]

Elite overproduction has actually caused this problem for the museum world and in some sense in history world, too.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. Okay, well, we will be back tomorrow.

[Abe Greenwald]

So, John, maybe you should remind people about the songs that they should vote on.

[John Podhoretz]

Okay. Three songs, podcast to commentary.org Ain't that a kick in the head? You'll be back. And I've already forgotten the third one. What was Yankee Doodle Dandy? Doodle Dandy. Yeah. Not Yankee Doodle. It's not Yankee Doodle. I'm talking about Yankee Doodle Dandy, the George M. Cohen song.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah.

[John Podhoretz]

I'm singing Yankee Doodle. Okay. Okay. So till tomorrow when one of those songs will be sung for Matt, Christine, and Abe of John Bodworth's Keep the Candle.

[Christine Rosen]

Bur.