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A
Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary. Go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary Hope for the.
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B
Expect the words Some.
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A
Preacher pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing this way it's going.
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B
Hope for the best expect the worst.
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A
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast. Today is Friday, November 7, 2025. I am John Vod Horitz, the editor of Commentary Magazine. I want to commend my colleagues Abe Greenwald, Christine Rosen and our friend Eli Lake for one of the most hilarious Commentary podcasts yesterday in which I was not present, in which you Gen Xers ran amok with all of your cultural reference points to really bad 90s music that you should all be ashamed. Abe I'm gonna excuse you because you said you didn't like it that they're making reference to, like, Counting Crows and Alanis Morris said and garbage from the 1990s that no one should actually cite if you want to have any standing as a person of taste and discernment. But it was absolutely hilarious. A great podcast. I was thrilled to listen to it and to enjoy it. And that means you, Executive editor. Hi, Abe.
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C
Hi, John.
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A
Senior editor, Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
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B
Hi, John.
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A
And not a Gen X, maybe. Are you a Gen Xer, Eliana? You're not.
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D
I'm an older millennial.
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A
You're an older millennial. Okay, so. Washington Free Beacon editor and older millennial, Eliana Johnson. Whereas I am a baby boomer. So I'm a baby boomer. Seth and Eliana are older millennials. Abe is a Gen Xer, and we are all under assault from antisemites. And I just want to say that as these five days or six, seven days or eight days since the kind of explosion of Tucker, Nick Fuentes and Kevin Roberts have gone apace, I just want to surface one little thing. So one of the proposals by the Heritage Task Force on Anti Semitism was that in order to calm and still the waters of controversy, perhaps Heritage staffers could accept invitations to go to Friday night Shabbat dinners at the homes of Jews. And a young staffer there was concerned about this, said, is this like an order? Are we going to be punished if we don't do it? Because Friday is the day that Jesus was killed, and that's a day for contemplation of that fact and for sometimes fasting or eating other things. And so I don't feel comfortable being told that I have to go to a Shabbat dinner at somebody's house, but I don't want to be punished for it. Okay, So a lot of us made fun of this, or some of us made fun of this on social media. It's like, you know, this is Shabbat dinner just for people. Don't is not a religious service. It is a Friday night dinner at which three or four different prayers are said at the beginning and one little song is sung. The song welcomes in, welcomes everybody to the house. And then you say a prayer to welcome in the Sabbath. And then some people say a prayer over their children. And then you do what's called kiddush, which is you make a blessing over the wine and bread, and that's the end of it. It's like three blessings and a song, and it Lasts five minutes. It's not a service. It's. It's, you know, it's like saying grace. Like if I went to a Christian household and somebody said grace, I would close my eyes and put my hands, you know, at my sides and, you know, say amen at the end of the grace. People who don't know this seem to think that this is some kind of a, you know, ritual. Like the Passover Seder is a ritual. It is not. It is a dinner and it's a, it's a communitarian event because ordinarily Jews invite friends over so that it can be a kind of celebratory weekly event, friends or family or whatever. And kind of high spirited and fun. That's all. That's all it is. And it's warm and welcoming and like any family gathering, you know, there could be, you know, like a, like a movie where secrets are revealed at a Christmas dinner where families are dysfunctional. You know, you don't know what's going to happen. Bad stuff could happen. I'm not sure it's necessarily helpful to invite non Jews to a Shabbat dinner if the, you know, if, if there's going to be fireworks at the dinner. But anyway, it was a very.
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B
There's a new movie out now on Netflix called Bad Shabbos where that's. Yes, apparently Method man is involved in covering up a murder. Shabbos dinner.
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A
Well, Method.
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B
Method man has not been Mandel Friday night dinners.
- [07:24]
A
Yes, a Method man is that. Method man is not responsible for the death at the Shabbat dinner at Ben Bad Chavez. I just want to make this clear. That's not what happens. It is a hilarious black comedy. I'm not sure that non Jews should see it because again, I don't know whether it will stir admiration for our great senses of humor or whether it will be like, you people are crazy. I don't need to have anything to do with you. But anyway, actually a movie that I love and is available now on, I think on Netflix. Anyway, that's the bad job of a story. What I was struck by, in response to this idea that you should come to Shabbat dinner and see what it's like to be a Jew in America or something like that. And then this kid saying, wait, this might violate my religion. And another kid at the Heritage foundation saying, I too believe that Christian Zionism is a heresy and I'm not going to litigate or go into Christian or Catholic doctrine that explains why. Because it's not my doctrine and it Makes me sick. But, you know, I respect that there was a world of people who. You. Who believe this notion that somehow, you know, being a Christian and a Zionist and that the Bible suggests the Christians should support Jews. If that's controversial, then it's not my controversy. What I was interested in was the comments. I know you're never supposed to read the comments, but on Twitter, hundreds of comments under every post involving quoting this kid whose name I won't mention, saying he, you know, was worried that he was going to be forced to go to a Shabbat dinner when it violated his religious principles, was, how dare you force this kid to go to dinner at your house, you effing Jew boy? I mean, it had that quality. It's like you're saying, oh, you know, you're now forcing people to do things in order to prevent anti Semitism. Well, now let me say something incredibly anti Semitic in response to this and, like, reveal my true character, which is what Nick Fuentes does and what Tucker Carlson does. It's like a kind of ID releasing bad emotion and evil intent and what we call yetzer hara in Hebrew, the evil inclination in the human soul is revealed. And maybe that is healthy, even if it's evil, because it gives us a sense of what it is that we're dealing with here. That the most benign idea, and I think actually sort of a silly idea, though again, it partially comes out of the Mandel family. So I don't want to say that what you do is silly if you invite anybody to your house that you want. But the idea that there will be a positive result from having somebody at your house for Shabbat dinner who has expressed violent or negative views about Jews in Israel, I think, is a bit of a. It's a wish without a possibility of real fulfillment. But it is as. It is as mild a thing. It's not like saying you need to spend a weekend. You have to go to services and you have to lay tefillin and you have to, you know, have. You have to have a ritual circumcision and you have to have a bar mitzvah and you have to, you know, you have to dissociate yourself from Jesus Christ. It's just like, go to somebody's house for dinner and have a nice time and maybe you'll stop seeing them as animals or monsters or something like that.
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B
One of the organizing. One of the reasons we do this is because it isn't actually outreach. It's not actually designed to change minds about anything. The reason people like it is because it's literally just having a home cooked meal on a Friday night with people who may eat or celebrate differently, but with lots different people. But it's not, it's not really intent. There's no intention behind it. It's just people started, you know, we started doing this, you know, when we were first in D.C. you know, a decade ago. And people liked it because they liked it turned out coming from the hill and then walking into a home where people's phones were off, there was like this sense of like privacy and whatever. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't intended to be, you know, this was not the Elders of Zion meeting. Wasn't intended to be some sort of off the record thing. You can use your phone at my house. Nobody. We don't make you put your phone in the bag, you know, like you're at a Dave Chappelle show and then you get. Retrieve it afterwards.
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C
It's.
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B
You can use your phone, you can bring your phone. There's no rules, you know, for non Jews or whatever. But, but it's. But people liked the idea that like people weren't constantly taking selfies. Hey, look at me. This is me and gefilte fish right here. Yeah. And stuff like that. That it was just like people just sitting and talking.
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A
So that's serve gefilte fish. And you expect people to leave the table phylo Semitic.
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B
So we like fish.
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A
But that's a very controversial tactic. I don't. I think you want to maybe eliminate the gefilte fish when the gentiles are at the table. Many people repulsed by gefilte fish. I just want to point this out. I don't know.
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B
The gefilte fish is all optional.
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A
I'm just saying people look at gefilte fish and they're like, what, what is that? And they're like.
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B
What I'm saying is that we, we follow the Geneva conventions regarding filter fish.
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A
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. But yeah, anyway, before we go on, either Eliana, I want to defend gefiltes.
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C
I mean, I love it. I. I love it.
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A
All right, good. That's all. Elliot.
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D
I don't love it.
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A
Okay.
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B
I love it.
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D
I don't hate it either.
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A
Okay.
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D
But I'm not gonna like jump in and then probably proselytize on the behalf of gefilte fish.
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A
Okay. I like gefilte fish. I'm saying if there were a food that I was going to put before gentiles, say this is the Food of our people. It would not be gelta fish. That would, like be.
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B
Himself once told David Ben Gurion in a letter that his word that he cared about the existence of a Jewish state so much more than whatever model of governance that state took, that he would even support its founding if they made him eat gefilte fish every day. So it was even Jabotinsky, all people used it as his example of what was the worst possible. What was the nightmare scenario for a Jewish state that Jabotinsky would have to eat. Filter.
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A
Okay, so there we go. So the worst thing that could really happen at your Shabbat table would be somebody who is introduced to gefilte fish without any idea what has been put in front of them, taking a bite, and then, you know, like, having to run off to the bathroom to. To spit it out into the toilet because it's so disgusting. Even though I like it, but I know many people don't. So that's all it is. So it's an invitation to accept it. And you know what? Here's one thing you could do if you want to understand what life is. Like, go to somebody's house for dinner. And then a bunch of people say, are you ordering me to go to a Jew's house for dinner? Which a is like, okay, like, that's a weird way to put it. And Victoria Coates, who is the head of the task force, said, I really resent that you put it this way. No, it's making you go to anybody's house for dinner. And, like, it's just a nice idea. And then the thousands of comments of people saying, you evil monsters, forcing people to your Shabbat table, where I assume they believe the blood of Christian children has been baked into the hala or something. So why do I. Why do I bring this up in this way? Because the point here is that it's very hard to tell if the people who express this sentiment make up 0.1% of the right or whether they make up 10% of the right. There's no way of knowing. There's no way of telling. All we can really tell is that for the 1% of the right that has this view, if it's 1%, this is, and you'll excuse me for saying so, it's like Christmas every day now. They are able to say whatever they want to say and frame it in a tone of moral outrage that Jews are trying to oppress Christians by inviting them to dinner. Jews are oppressors for inviting non Jews to dinner.
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D
One other Thing. Are you done, John?
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A
Yes, I'm done.
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D
Okay. I didn't wanna.
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A
No, I'm not done. Wait, I got another 20 minutes. You know, I really have a solid 25 on this, but go ahead.
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D
Far be it for me to interrupt your monologue on the Shabbat dinner outrage. I. I mean, I've been struggling with this, having, you know, posted this video. Although this. This actually was. The audio of this was out there before we posted this video, and some of the people in it had been identified. And this, I mean, kid is like a little too generous. But I would say young adult, you.
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A
Know, this late 20s, right.
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D
Person in his 20s. Yes. His picture was out there with, like, people having identified. This is the person. And here's his photograph, and here's what he said, you know, So I sit on the board of a foundation and we administer a fellowship. And through applications that come in through young people, we see a lot of, like, the intellectual fads that go that, like, come through on the right. And a. Like, I do think there's a risk of over interpreting. Like, this is a young adult who said something. And I do think, like, perhaps genuinely misinterpreted, like, thought this is a requirement. Didn't want to go. Like, he's a stupid kid. Like, people are allowed to be stupid kids. And I'm not, like, freaking out about this. Like, people are allowed to have bad judgment. It's unfortunate, but 10 years ago, when I was covering the Republican Party in 2014, Rand Paul and libertarianism were a big fad on the right. And you see these things kind of come and go. And the question to me is, like, do these kids now? And we saw this generational divide play out in the Heritage foundation meeting where the young people were on one side of this and the adults seem to be on the other side of this. Are they going to grow out of it? Like, are they going to grow up and become smarter and wiser and exhibit better judgment? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that, like, in reviewing applications for this fellowship program, like, we see obvious intellectual trends among young people and they change over time. In particular, like, we ask kids to listen to who are three people you admire in public life. And, like, there are trends in those and they change and, you know, it's obvious. So the question to me is, like, do these kids grow up and grow out of this?
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B
It's a very good question. And the one that. It's one that we have found ourselves for a long time asking about the Left, right. And now we're having a very similar conversation on the right, which is the argument on the left, especially as the tent protests were starting after October 7th, was college kids are stupid. They have stupid ideas. Everybody flirts with Marxism and blah, blah, blah, Zoroastrianism, I don't know, whatever in college. And then they, you know, and then they grow advent. And there was. And the conversation from people on our side were, well, I don't think that they grow out of it in the numbers that you would like because, you know, the, the Weather Underground members are their teachers, are their professors. Like, obviously there's a pipeline where the radicalism can advance you, you know, into public life on the left. And so now the question we're dealing with is, is there a pipeline that, that can advance you from that radicalism into public life on the right, where you then transmit that radicalism presumably to another generation?
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A
Right. And that.
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C
I have a. I have a proposal that's reductionist and scary.
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A
So you had such a fun time yesterday, and then I came back and now ruined your mood.
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C
The young right antisemitism. We've been watching the right imitate the woke left in so many ways, right? The young right antisemitism is the. Is that generation's, that right wing generation's trans. It's their crazy runaway idea that gives them meaning.
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A
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C
Yeah.
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A
And that we are. It's an illness. So it has a contagious aspect to it and. And that that contagion is losing its power and is going away over time. Problem with likening it to anti Semitism is that anti Semitism is older than everything. Sure. It's older than America. It's older than. Right. It's older than left. It's older than. It's older than you know, Western. It's older than you know, than. Than the Enlightenment. It's. It's the oldest thing that is ongoing in our lives in some fundamental sense. So hoping that it will go away is a fool's errand because it will never go away. The question is what purchase does it have in a country that 15 years ago it was very much a minor aspect. Very minor aspect of ordinary ongoing American life. I mean, it really. I mean, I just don't think you can say otherwise. Now you can say that there were portents and signs that it was going to be a lot more trouble and people refused to pay attention to them. But one of the reasons that they refused to pay attention to them is that they didn't have any purchase at that moment. They didn't feel threatened. They didn't feel as though anti Semitism was on the march. And therefore they had no reason to mobilize against it or to attack it or even to have a conversation about it. And now we have it on both sides this week, right? It's. We have Mandani winning the mayoralty and we have this fight at Heritage over what should have been the easiest gimme of all time, which is that Heritage has a relationship with Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson decides to basically be a PR agent for an out and out Nazi. And Heritage should say, all right, we're done with you, Tucker Carlson. Then we have to hear all these weird excuses, right? Like, well, they have a paid partnership with Heritage, so they have a non disparagement agreement between Tucker and Heritage. This is insane. And I want to see that non disparagement agreement because Heritage was paying Tucker money, right? The contract is we're going to give you ads for $75,000 a pop on your show, which I am told by people who have shows of similar authority and power and numbers is about three times what an ad should cost. So Heritage was paying a premium to Tucker. Why? I don't know. I don't understand it. It's not my business. They could pay whatever they wanted, but the non disparagement agreement should have gone the other way. It's that Tucker couldn't disparage Heritage. Heritage has no. If it's paying the. If it's fronting the, you know, the Benjamins, it's the one that needs protections from Tucker trashing them in case they decide they don't want him to advertise anymore. It's not a mutual non disparagement thing. Heritage doesn't owe Tucker the right to not disparage him. So I don't believe the truth of this. I'm not gonna call Kevin Roberts a liar, but I guess I'm implicitly calling him a liar in the sense that maybe he agreed to it, in which case he is the biggest SAP and patsy who has ever lived. Like, you don't sign an NDA and non disparage with somebody that you're paying money to.
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D
Well, John, we don't even know. We should be clear. We don't even know for sure that this non disparagement agreement, but that was favorably.
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A
That that detail was leaked by someone as a cover for Roberts to say.
- [27:50]
D
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [27:52]
C
Okay.
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D
No, no, no. That was put out by somebody who is at odds with them and is trying to get to the bottom of what's going on here.
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A
Okay.
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D
Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think we should just be clear. This is speculation right now and people are trying to run this down and we'll report back to people once we have it nailed down.
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B
Okay, So I want to add something to what Abe was saying though before because it's. I read something late last night that was like super. Excuse me. That was super relevant to this, which is, you know, there's this. I don't even know what it did. It's called Heat Map News and it's, it's bio. Its bio line is a new media company focused on the biggest story of our time, Climate change. Okay, so it's a climate place. What somebody who writes for it posted as part of a story that people were, that people were talking about last night. And a story was about data centers and the revolt against data centers and the amount of energy and you know, whatever, the climate suckery of data centers. Okay, and let me read you this part. On one end of the spectrum, left aligned activists and local leaders are raging against the energy and water system strain that'll come from the data center. Boom. You have folks like Blake Koh, an activist fighting data center projects in San Marcos, Texas. Koh toad told me he began opposing data centers after being politically awakened by a totally different issue. The Israeli government's offensive in Gaza and alleged genocide of Palestinians there. But as he told me, he didn't have quote, the clout, the money, the whatever to work on fixing a genocide, end quote. After learning about the project in San Marcos, he concluded that the community there was something he can fight for. So you know, this is, this is Abe, I think what you're saying, right, which is like the guy got involved in politics because he thought the Israelis were committing a genocide in Gaza. And his activism is to protest against the construction of data centers in Texas, in San Marcos, Texas. Right. So that's, that's. But that's the risk here is that, and we've talked about this before, which is the reason that people in the Zoran Mamdani wing of the Democratic Party in the activist part of the party have worked so hard to make Israel a litmus test is because it makes it the price of admission to everything else. Right, Greta Thunberg, is you start out by saying save the whales, and you end up on a ship to Gaza. Right? That is. And so this, this guy went in the other direction. He started with Gaza and he ended up in data centers. But the point is, you, you know, there is this, you know, price of admission. You come in here, the thing you have to care about is Gaza and Israel and whatever. And the worry is that it sticks with you in a way that, like, okay, if this has to be my fundamental priority, I don't even have to work in it. I can go work in protesting data centers. I can chain myself to a tree in Montana if I want. I just have to start by saying Israel's committing genocide. And so the question is, does that stick as something that. That gatekeeps in democratic politics? Does it become difficult to rise through electoral politics if you have not made the initial pledge and don't have those sort of like, original battle scars? Or is it a trend that just, you know, next time it'll be, you know, it was trans. It's Gaza. Next time it'll be something else.
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A
So on the right, then, if we use your analogy, what, what does this explosion of anti Semitism on the right, what would it be a gatekeeper for? Like, what would be the. Well, I can't, like, get Jews out of Hollywood, but I can X. Instead, I'm just trying to think through what it is because some of it is, is.
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B
Is. Is connected, right? To, I mean, Tucker has, has said this and you know, when he was talking about Nicolas Maduro being some sort of social conservative. Right. We've heard that sort of thing before, and we've heard it with Putin before. I think there's a, there's been this, you know, Buchanan effort to tie in the Jews with, you know, a kind.
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A
Of liberal, social cosmopolitan. Liberal. Yeah, liberal cosmopolitanism that has no more.
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B
It was like, oh, Ukraine is woke because of its Jewish. Like, I think there's a, there's a pathway toward that sort of social conservative. You know, those, those sorts of hot topics.
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A
I don't you become an activist on behalf of Maduro because the Jews are doing bad things and he's a social conservative. Even though the regime in Venezuela, one of its hallmarks as Chavez was gaining power was attacks on the Jewish community in Caracas that led to a almost complete emptying out of the Jewish population of Caracas and the firebombing of a Jewish center in Caracas and other things. So there's an anti Semitic tint to the Maduro. If you think that's not part of why Tucker likes Venezuela, is that a, it's socially conservative because, I don't know, homosexuality is outlawed or something. I can't remember what, what he said. But it's also had. And you know what? It's also, it hates Jews. Tries, you know, it's the trifecta. So who cares if it's socialist? And by the way, what is socialism anyway but caring for poor people? When it gets right down to it, what does that matter? I mean, maybe the answer is that if you are actually motivated by old line, old form antisemitism given rebirth, then you don't need a secondary issue. Maybe if you're a right wing antisemite, you don't need a secondary issue. If you're a left wing anti Semite, maybe a secondary issue is helpful because you have so much else you want to overthrow. I'm not, I'm not sure. I mean, the thing about Fuentes and Carlson and everything is that, not that I'm saying that the left has any positive agenda. I mean, I think, you know, the climate change stuff is all negative and obviously Israel as a genocidal nation is a negative. But I mean, what does Tucker, what do they stand for? What does Nick Fuentes want? Like, what does he want the Republican Party to do? We see in the last week, for example, Marjorie Taylor Greene, whom one would have thought was the craziest Republican you could field, starting to say things like, you know, we need to get things. I'm gonna run for office next year. Maybe we should think about how we get some things done so that I have something to save my voters that I did while I was in Congress these past two years. Like, she's awakening to the idea that maybe there's a strain in politics that requires you to act in a way that is defensible on the idea that you've helped make somebody's life better or tried to make somebody's life better by your actions as a, as a sitting politician. But I don't see any positive agenda items on the Tucker Fuentes front.
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C
Right.
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A
Well, you know, I made this point.
- [35:38]
C
A little bit yesterday in my newsletter. So we've said for years that this anti establishment, you know, there used to be an anti establishment left and then the right was the right, whatever that was. And then a few years ago, this, the anti establishment right popped up as well. What does it mean now to be an anti establishment right winger when Trump has mainstreamed populism on the right and delivered everything that those anti establishment right wingers had wanted. They wanted the. They wanted the borders secure, they wanted to deport illegals, they wanted to crack down on dei, they wanted to crack down on transgenderism, on wokeness, generally. What does it mean to be anti establishment? Well, when you have a right wing president as pro Israel as Trump, it means you're anti Semitic. That is the stuff of right wing, anti establishment now.
- [36:49]
D
Well, I think that's part of it. But also when you ask, like, what do they want? I mean, the fight is also about foreign policy because these people are at loggerheads with Trump's foreign policy. And while Fuentes will go directly at Trump, what Carlson does is attack Lindsey Graham and other people who support a muscular vision of American engagement with the world. And so Tucker Carlson devoted two hours the other day to interviewing Lindsey Graham's primary challenger. And the subject line of his newsletter was, I want to pull it up. It was something like Lindsey Graham's psychosexual murder spree or, you know, something like that. And that is his way of attacking Trump by attacking those who support Trump's foreign policy. But I think when you ask, like, what's this about? What's their positive vision? It is an isolationist, you know, more isolationist American foreign policy.
- [37:58]
A
Okay, that. I think you're absolutely right about that. But it seems a little anodyne compared to the violence of the rhetoric that they are supporting, by which I mean, okay, you can say it's foolish for us to be involved in Ukraine. It's foolish. Russia's too powerful. What the hell do we care? You know, this is Europe. It's a different continent. We don't care. It's another to say that those ideas that lead you to think that Winston Churchill was the great villain of the Second World War and that Stalin was pretty great, the two are not, you know that. So the question is, what is it that pushes the Tuckerites further and further and further to the extreme? Is it that. Is it that the taste for extremism has no bottom? And so if you're going to, if you're going to go down that road, you want to go as far down that road as possible so you can see whether you get to, you know, whether you get to the right wing odds, you know, or something. I'm not sure. I think you're right. But there is a realist version of that fight, and then there is the psychotic version of that Fight. Now, I'm perfectly willing to associate the two because I think isolationism is an evil, but I don't think that, I don't think that, you know, Elbridge Colby, whom I think is, who is the policy planning director at the Pentagon and somebody whose views on things I mostly abhor. I don't think that, you know, what he wants is to be associated with somebody who says Nazism is great and I love Hitler and I love Stalin. I think he would look at that and say, this is disqualifying for my 15 year agenda to change American foreign policy in this direction. You're ruining it. You're screwing it up. I was not going to say screwing it up, but I held back. I assume, I hope, but I do assume he's not, you know, he's not a psychopath. So he would want people to think it's the mainstream to want, not want American involvement in X and to prepare for war with China, for example.
- [40:04]
D
Sorry. So the Tucker newsletter was Lindsey Graham, American Monster, and the Tucker podcast was It's Time to Decide America first or Lindsey Graham's Psychosexual Death Cult. Just so, yeah, make sure that we're accurate here.
- [40:18]
B
Yes, that's a tough choice.
- [40:20]
A
Very, very. Yes.
- [40:21]
D
But to your point, John, like, there's a more mainstream version of this like, isolationist impulse and then there's the, the Tucker Fuentes and those two, like, they're not totally the same, but there's like a lust for power on, in the, on the Tucker Fuentes side and they are trying to drag like the more mainstream people into that camp and exert power over them. And that is why you hear, I think, Fuentes threatening JD Vance, he went on his podcast and threatened him and said, if you denounce me, I will go out there and campaign against you. So they are trying to co opt these people through threats and exert control, like seize the institutions.
- [41:07]
A
Right. And of course it's not just Nick Fuentes is also at war with the, you know, with the now sort of like sainted martyr of the right, Charlie Kirk, by implicit, by insinuating that something untoward is going on between J.D. vance and Erica Kirk or something. I thought you weren't allowed that. If there was one person in America on the right that you could not talk smack about, it was not only the late Charlie Kirk assassinated for his views by a trans psychopath or trans loving psychopath, but his, his tragic widow. Like, you're going after his widow? Are you kidding me?
- [41:56]
C
Like, but everything is, everything is forgiven as Long as you hate the Jews, that is, that, that is their litmus test, right?
- [42:05]
A
So that's where the numbers game starts coming in and where I freak out. Okay, so because I heard Megyn Kelly say yesterday that Nick Fuentes has 5 million followers on Rumble or on Twitch or whatever. So 5 million people is a lot. Doesn't mean that any of the. Could mean someone like follows you and doesn't watch you or something like that. Doesn't mean that they're all like part of your camp following. But 5 million people out of 330 million people is more than 1% of the country. So if I said to you, okay, well, 2% of the country is like virulently anti Semitic and wants Jews dead, on the one hand you would say, well, what do you expect? Like, it's the world, it's Jew, everyone has hated Jews forever. If the, if it's only 2% in America, it's not so terrible. But then you have Mamdani on the other side and you have people saying there's no question that Mamdani is dangerous to Jews and threatening to Jews. And then he wins this election. Now he only gets, I mean, he gets a million, 1.2 million votes. It's not like he got 50 million votes. But how big are these numbers and what does that mean as a matter of our own self defense as Americans and as Jews in the United States, what does it tell us about what we have to do from here on in? Is this a persuasion game or is it like an all out war where we have to use whatever tools are at our disposal to go at these people rather than just, I'm sorry again, not to, not to, but you know, like invite them over to Shabbat because it's well beyond the possibility that, you know, the, oh, my neighbor is Jewish. Therefore, you know what? Jews aren't so bad. No, it's the Harry Truman mythos story, right? Which is Harry Truman wasn't going to recognize Israel, but then his former haberdashery partner came to the White House and said, harry, please, for my people. And he's like, okay, Eddie, I'll recognize Israel. Now that's of course not the real story of the recognition of the state of Israel by the United States. But it's a comforting fantasy that you see, as long as you know a Jew, you meet a Jew, it is.
- [44:21]
B
Also a recognition of an important part of this success of American Jews, which is raincoats.
- [44:28]
D
Can I just jump in on this quick? I think it's an Important question, like how big is the audience and should we try to argue with them, persuade them? Because this is an argument that's out there. Like the audience is just too big. We can't let them go. And I think it's important to address it. And I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say. Look, Nick Fuentes urged his listeners to vote for Kamala Harris. He said Trump would not be strong enough on the border. And J.D. vance, when he said J.D. vance was a fat, gay, you know, race traitor, married to a jeet. That was before the election. And it was part of a monologue urging people, you know, to support the other party. Donald Trump won seven swing states without these people, okay? He says women want to be raped. Just yesterday, you know, listening to him say women need to be quieter. So I guess we wouldn't get along, Wouldn't get along with a lot. No wonder he doesn't like Jewish women, because we talk too much. But, you know, women just need to be quiet, minorities need to behave, et cetera, et cetera. He's entertaining, okay? Like I actually, he's entertaining to listen to and he's, he. Tucker's right. Like, he's quite talented. But the people who believe these things, women want to be raped. JD's wife is brown, and that's bad. Like, these are not people who are, want to engage in intellectual debate that you can persuade out of these views through like, you know, a panel at the Heritage foundation or at the American Enterprise Institute. They might change their minds, but it's not going to be because, like, you know, we canvassed and door knocked and like somebody convinced them otherwise, like, maybe something will happen to them and they'll change their minds. But, but these are not people who want to debate. These are people who want to hurl personal, you know, ethnic insults and tear people down and seize control of institutions. And Trump did quite well without them. And the next presidential candidate for the Republican party that wins will win without these people. And if anything, adding these people to the party will drive more people out. You cannot get to 47% with the groipers in the party.
- [46:51]
C
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- [48:31]
B
I'm Oliver Darcy. And I'm John Passantino. We have spent years covering the inner workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood and power. Now through our nightly newsletter status. And we're bringing that same reporting and sharp analysis to a new podcast, Power Lines. Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest stories shaping the industry, explaining why they matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud. No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis that isn't afraid to call it like it is. We also pull back the curtain via our exclusive reporting to take you behind the scenes. My understanding having reported this, is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up. Oh my God, that's Power Lines presented by Status. Follow Power Lines and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [49:38]
A
In 1991, Pat Buchanan, columnist, star of Crossfire on CNN, decided to run for President of the United States against the sitting Republican, George H.W. bush. He initially decided to run against him on foreign policy grounds because, as he said, somehow the Jews were forcing Bush into going to war against Saddam Hussein. And it wasn't people named Goldberg who were going to die in this war. It was Leroy Brown and Polanski did this kind of like World War II movie Ethnic List of non Jewish names that were all going to die for the Jews. Now this was a psychotic idea. Israel not only didn't really want America to get to go to War against Iraq. It was worried and it suffered with the result because it was not allowed to defend itself against an attack from Iraq. And then later in that year, Israel became the whipping boy at an international conference about how to deal with the Middle east after the victory of the United States against Iraq. Nonetheless, this was the key issue for this group of people that ended up, many years later, starting the Americans conservative, these kind of libertarian isolationists who decided that Israel was secretly at fault for the fact that America went to war in Iraq. He ran on that. And then as he went to New Hampshire and started politicking, he seized very brilliantly on the fact that what people were telling him was that life was too expensive, they were losing their jobs because of the way globalization was affecting their livelihoods and economies. And then he became a populist on economics he had not been before. That wasn't an issue that was of interest to him before. And he ended up getting 37% in the new Hampshire primary. I'm telling this story because throughout 1992, there was a very big fight inside the Republican, inside the Bush White House, which was ideologically tone deaf and brain dead about whether or not it should oppose Buchananism and go at it like, use it and try to crush it, give Bush a target to attack and say, this is what we are trying to move away from, we're trying to whatever. Or were there too many people? Did they have to be brought into the big tent and be humored? And it was decided mostly to humor them. And Buchanan got a major place at the 1992 convention and gave what was, in my lifetime, the most famous convention speech in American history. The speech where he said, there is a war going on inside for the soul of the United States. It was an amazing speech. I mean, it was a vile speech, but it was an amazing piece of rhetoric. And did he bring them into the tent? No, he depressed Republican turnout and everything that was said by Buchanan. Everybody who was stirred by Buchanan voted for Perot and elected Clinton. I'm bringing this up to say that the effort of Republicans to. To bring extremists into the tent, whose message is fundamentally at odds with where the party stands, has a history of being a disastrous failure.
- [53:15]
B
The reason for that, one of the main reasons for that is because people look at the. Let's go back to the 5 million number. So and so has 5 million subscribers on YouTube. How many of them vote and who have they voted for in the past? How old are they?
- [53:29]
A
Right, right.
- [53:29]
B
Are they old enough to vote? There is a There is a transference problem where people see numbers and say that those are voters. We can't exile 5 million voters if they want to vote for us. But that number of viewers is plumped up by all sorts of things. You know, there's the algorithms, there's bots, there's this and that, plus the people themselves who are real and watching this, not necessarily of age to vote. They're not necessarily voters. Even if they are, you, you have to do a lot of sifting. That is very hard to do. But we're, you know, it's, it's amplifying the Buchanan effect that you're talking about. Because the Buchanan effect at least was if people come out to a political speech by a candidate for president, you could at least say there's a vote to be had here. And what's happening now on the right is even worse because they aren't people who are coming out to hear the Lincoln Douglas debates. There are people watching Nick Fuentes or maybe watching Nick Fuentes. Maybe they're a robot watching Nick Fuentes.
- [54:34]
A
The point that I'm trying to make is that we don't know because you can't go back in time. But if Bush had said, ah, Buchanan is a live target for me, I have an opportunity here to define myself. When people don't really are like, who the hell are you as president, I don't know what you stand for to use him as the target. Not only are the Democrats bad, but there is this force that I am going to prevent from joining up with them to ruin the country. He didn't do it. They didn't have the vision. They had no vision. As Clinton famously said. Right. Said. He mocks it. He said Bush mocks this as the vision thing, you know, because Bush said, oh, yeah, you're always talking to me about the vision thing. We don't know how that would go. But there is this fact about the Mamdani vote in New York and in the Democratic Party that is unresolved. So Mamdani is the proof that people who don't vote can. Might turn out to vote in wild numbers. Right. Huge turnout among people who've never voted before and for, you know, basically people under the age of 30 and all of that. But we don't know is now that you know that they're there and they're voting, what use can you make of them as a negative? This is what Elise Phonik is going to test when she runs for governor. This, which is, I'm going to assume that all those people are going to turn out to vote for Mamdani. I am then going to warn people in New York that those people who elected that guy, they're the ones. You have to stop. It's not just Mamdani. You have to stop. There is this coterie of young radicals who want to take over America. You have to help me stop them. That's also politics. That is part of politics. And, you know, people, it's not the way that ordinary politicians like to play the game. But, you know, what if you, Humphrey, had come out foursquare against the protesters in 68. What if, you know, what if he had said, you're all monsters and I hope you all get thrown in jail. This is not the way to behave, or something like that. We don't know what we don't know. We don't know what a counter history would have, but we know that not doing it made them lose. So it's just an interesting set of what ifs. And where Jews are concerned, I just don't think that we have a choice. And this is a. This goes to a whole complicated series of decisions that people, individual people are going to have to make about this. But when I say we don't have a choice, I mean, they're not. You can't bring them in. And we don't want the right to bring them in, because if the right brings them in, we're out. We're only out for. Because they want us out. We can't associate with them. And there's the Democratic Party, which is already making clear that we can't associate with them either. So we better fight for the one force that we can still maybe have a home in. With the, with the left having gone totally over to the other side, what are we going to do to save ourselves from this horseshoe effect?
- [57:54]
B
And also worth noting that the. The example you brought up with Pat Buchanan was. That exact example was used by William F. Buckley to denounce Buchanan as an actual anti Semite. He wrote an article.
- [58:10]
A
The article, yeah, right.
- [58:13]
B
It was the entire issue of. He wrote an entire issue of National Review on this question, you know, anti Semitic. That was expanded only slightly. I don't know how many more words, but about anti Semitism. And he, you know, he honed in on the fact, you know, that Buchanan said, you know, the people who want this war are AM Rosenthal and Charles Krauthammer and Richard Pearl and Henry Kissinger. And the people who are going to die have names like McAllister, Murphy, Gonzalez.
- [58:41]
A
And Leroy And Leroy Brown, that was.
- [58:44]
B
What, you know, he specifically pointed that as a gatekeeper.
- [58:47]
A
Buckley did.
- [58:48]
B
And said, you can't tell me there's not a clear reason he's speaking the way he's speaking. So the other, the other, you know, the other relevant fact for us today is, is the question of, you know, gatekeepers. We, there isn't a Buckley we can. That's a different discussion about whether we should or have Whatever. Whether you can. But the point is that that factors into it also that that comment by Buchanan triggered.
- [59:11]
A
Yeah.
- [59:12]
B
The conservative movement's gatekeeper at the time.
- [59:15]
A
Right.
- [59:15]
B
And there's nothing to trigger now today.
- [59:17]
D
The lunatics have huge podcasts and the non lunatics have, you know, little magazines.
- [59:25]
A
Well, although they also have the speaker of the House.
- [59:29]
D
Yes, yes.
- [59:30]
A
And they have the majority leader of the Senate. I mean, and they have the most Zionist president in the history of the United States sitting in the White House. So it's not like the battle is lost. You know, the battle is not lost. They want to make sure that the battle is lost. Their anti institutional frenzy is about cutting into the power of those who actually do seem to represent the majority of opinion on the right. They're trying to use their rabid minority as a, you know, and amplify it and make it seem more powerful than it is to Plato's cave out. The people like Kevin Roberts, who isn't Mike Johnson and isn't John Thune, but is totally able to be swayed by the fact that somebody called, you know, Adolph 27328 on, on rumble and, and Twitter will, you know, will say nasty things about him if he cuts Tucker Carlson off. So far we don't really have evidence that the people who actually have to go to the voters and get their votes are buying into this. It's the people who are like playing footsie are, you know, Tucker and Fuentes and unfortunately my old friend Megyn Kelly, who is not covering herself in glory with her refusal to stay out of the fray or to try to explain away the behavior of, of the people who are acting this way. And then there's J.D.
- [61:09]
C
Vance.
- [61:11]
A
And then ultimately there's J.D. vance. Right. So. And the fight for the soul of J.D. vance is part of the. Is really. Yeah, that's it is the game here. Right. I mean he's, remember the thing about vance is he's 41 years old. He's. He won one. He's been in one election and then he got named vice president to Trump. So he, he is the most remarkable young man in America on the one hand. On the other hand, we don't know what his political or his wisdom is here. We don't. And if he is so online that he thinks that Nick Fuentes is the. What Nick Fuentes thinks is more important than what, than what John Thune thinks, maybe, you know, we're going to see President Newsom in 28, just walk, waltz right into the White House. Because this guy in this way is.
- [62:04]
B
It's weird to say this, I know, but I really believe it. He. This is the right to Obama. Obama, when he was in the state legislature in Illinois, very famously prevaricated on things and wouldn't come down clearly on one side or the other of all sorts of things and wanted there to be no real paper trail of a record of what he actually believed politically and policy wise.
- [62:31]
A
Although the Iraq War speech, except on Iraq. Right.
- [62:35]
B
So J.D. vance has this. We don't know how he feels about the radicals. We don't know exactly where he comes down on this or that because he speaks in generalities and he's talented at doing so. But he has the one thing which is he doesn't want war. So this is, you know, he's the closest thing really that, that the right has had to Obama. And the question is whether the right wants to interrogate that and find out what he knows or whether the right sees that there's an advantage in having your own. Obama, who rode to 2 plus 50%.
- [63:08]
A
Victories, he doesn't like war. His president participated in the destruction of his boss, participated in the destruction of the Iranian nuclear program and is right now firing on boats, you know, in the Atlantic and has blown up 17 boats in the Atlantic. Like, this is not somebody, okay, it's not a declared war, but this is not somebody who is averse to using military action at will without congressional authorization and all of that. So, you know, I don't know how far he can go being the anti war person. It's just that he doesn't like Ukraine. That's it. Like, that's not a consistent position. Anyway, as I say, I think one last point and then I want to get success recommendation just to see if you guys agree with me. I think we now need to think even more seriously about the electoral prospects of Gavin Newsom after Tuesday because Gavin Newsom is now the only person who is seriously in the fray for 2028 who will have a very specific thing that he can go to Democrats in early states and everywhere and say, I did something to stop Trump. You all blather about it. I created this ballot initiative. I got five Democratic votes in the House in 2026 fighting the Republican effort to, you know, to totally gimmick up and keep the House by screwing around with redistricting. I single handedly, assuming as I do that Democrats will win the house in 26, I single handedly made that possible. And what I did here, I can do in the country. I can stop the Trump movement in its tracks and I can do things, move things forward for. And everybody else is a talks and I act. And I think that's a pretty powerful message. Yes. No. Am I wrong? I don't know.
- [65:10]
B
I think it depends how you act. Depends what you, what you actually do. But yeah, but I also think it.
- [65:16]
C
Depends on what degree the Mom Donnie phenomenon takes off on left as a kind of challenge to that as the, as the sexier model.
- [65:32]
A
Right, right.
- [65:35]
D
I thought Gavin Newsome was a top tier Democratic candidate before Tuesday. I think that afterwards. And I agree with Abe because I thought AOC would, was going to be a leading candidate in 2028 before Tuesday. And I tend to still kind of think that after just because I think that's where the energy in the party is. And her rallies with Bernie. Stop the oligarchy, kill the oligarchy. Whatever they were, where they took private jets to and fro, you know, all over those were just getting huge crowds. There's a lot of energy behind that. So I think they're both top tier candidates and.
- [66:25]
A
It'S an interesting fight. I'm just saying there's now a real fight because in 2019 it was. Nobody had anything, with the exception of Biden, who had been vice president, nobody had anything to say for themselves. Kamala Harris was like, I gave people a tough time in a hearing once. You know, like Newsom will have a thing that he did in 2025 that has major political impact. So you have, you can have the rhetoric versus the reality and Newsom can say, maybe you can get everything you would get from AOC from me, plus I'm effective, you know, or something like that. I don't know. It's. Anyway, it's a fun fact that there will now be a Democrat with a record to run on. That would be very hard for like AOC to say. Ah, that was nothing. That was nothing. You got us five seats. Can't do it. Like it's. You're not an empty suit. He did something big. The biggest thing he's ever done in his career. You know, so anyway, I just think that's fun. It's a fun fact. And you know, we'll have, you know, if there's a contest on the Republican side, it'll be interesting to see what issues there are that will make a difference to people or if it's just, well, Vance is Trump's vice president, so it'll be Vance. Seth, you have a recommendation?
- [67:47]
C
Yeah.
- [67:48]
B
So I thought that since we now finally have our first look teaser and some photos of the Night Manager Season 2, about 10 years after the first, I thought I would recommend the Night Manager, the miniseries that you can get on Amazon prime and also if, you know, if you're in Britain, BritBox, BBC, all that stuff. This is an adaptation of John Lecarre's novel of the same name. And I happen to think that it is arguably the best adaptation. I know that Tinker Taylor, Soldier, Spies in the Conversation and there are others, but John Lecrae can be very difficult to adapt and it, his the movies have tend to have a harder time than a miniseries. And so they gave this a season of the Night Manager and really let them flesh out the book and the intrigue in it. And it, it was a, you know, a monumental success. It was a great, great middle series miniseries. Tom Hiddleston, Hugh Laurie, Olivia Colman and Tom Hollander are, you know, were kind of the main ones. The plot is, you know, it's not all that important, but it, it did center on Arab Spring related events and then weapons, you know, weapons sales and, you know, war profiteering and you know, all that sort of thing. But it was beautifully shot from, you know, the, the ski slope mountains to, you know, beautiful beaches and shores. It was, it was kind of like a bunch of James Bond movies in one in, in the way that it was like a travelogue of like, where would, where has Bond been? You know, in a way and that and, and letting it breathe over the course of a season really helped that the season two is not going to be based on a book because John Lecrae is no longer writing books, as we know. But he is also this is, you know, there's no sequel, so it will be interesting to see. But I really think that, you know, among the, the interpretations of his work over the years, the night manager in 2016 really nailed it. And it was very well watched and very well received, well enough that they are taking on 10 years later there's still this demand to do a second season which doesn't even have a book to be based on. So I want to recommend people go back. It really is good. It really is worth it. And you are about to get the second season of it, so you might as well.
- [70:34]
A
That's Netflix.
- [70:36]
B
So Amazon Prime, Amazon America. In America, Amazon prime has the night manager.
- [70:41]
A
Okay, so there we have it. I, I am very, I'm very anxious about recommending anything relating to John Le Carre because he was a, he was, he was a, it was an actual anti Semite. But, you know, so was Trollope. And he's my favorite writer. And you know, the 19th century, there were plenty of anti Semitic writers that I can't help but, you know, support. So I guess we can let John Carre, Jean Lecrae have this one. But just know that in Olam Haba, he is, he's, he's answering for his spiritual crimes against our, against our people. Thank you for Watch the free Beacon this afternoon for huge scoop. Scoopdom. I'm not gonna say what, but the huge scoop coming on Eliana's free Beacon site. Thanks, Eliana. Thanks, Seth. Thanks, Abe. And I'm John Pothoric. Keep the candle bur.