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- [00:00]
Matthew Continetti
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Jon Podhoretz
Expect the worst. Some drinks champagne. Some die at first.
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Matthew Continetti
No way of knowing which way it's going.
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Jon Podhoretz
Hope for the best.
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Matthew Continetti
Expect the worst. Hope for the best.
- [00:23]
Jon Podhoretz
Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Thursday, June 11, 2026. I am Jon Pothortz, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
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Abe Greenwald
Hi, Jon.
- [00:36]
Jon Podhoretz
Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
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Seth Mandel
Hi, John.
- [00:40]
Jon Podhoretz
And with us today, Wall Street Journal free Expression columnist and AEI poobah Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.
- [00:48]
Matthew Continetti
Hi, John.
- [00:50]
Jon Podhoretz
Matt, you believe you have a theory of everything to begin the podcast with, so I'm going to throw it to you.
- [00:59]
Matthew Continetti
I do, and I think maybe it will help kind of set the format for today's episode. But it occurred to me this morning as I was making my way through the press clippings that the four eyes have returned. If you recall, during the 2024 campaign, I made mention, I'm sure you all recall this, but I made mention of a William Safire column from 1980 where the great columnist and speechwriter William Safire said that what was haunting the Carter presidency were the four eyes. And those four eyes are Iran, Israel, inflation and ineptitude. And of course, all four is dogged the Biden, Harris administration and campaign as well and contributed to Donald Trump's remarkable comeback, his nix like comeback from the depths of January 6th to restoration in the White House. So again, what are those four eyes? Well, of course with in Iran, it was the Iranian hostage crisis that preoccupied and seriously hurt the Carter administration. And with Biden, it was Biden's ineffectuality in dealing with the flare ups between Israel and Iran. Iran's direct attacks on Iran, Israel responding cosmetically in the spring of 2024 and then responding more directly in the fall of 2024. There's of course, Israel during Biden's administration after October 7th. That was the huge preoccupation of the Biden administration. Biden failed to get all the hostages out. There was inflation, the record inflation, 9%, historic high in 2022. That of course increased the cost of living overall by about a quarter for Americans and contributed to Biden's unpopularity and Harris's loss. And then there is the broader question of ineptitude. You know, the fact that I think what after all the trillions spent in the economic recovery package, we had exactly one electric vehicle charging station built. You know, of course Secretary Buttigieg was on paternity leave, so maybe he wasn't following details every day. But I also think Ineptitude applies to Biden in the sense of the coverup about Biden's condition and his mental distress, which of course, is also in the headlines today. So you move it to June of 2026, and the four I's are still there. We've had the phony ceasefire in Iran, which is now breaking down. We have, of course, Israel becoming a central issue in American politics and anti Israel and antisemitism becoming a growing strain in the Democratic Party. We have inflation, which we can talk about. The report out yesterday tied to the Iran war and energy prices is not good for the Trump administration. And then there's this question of ineptitude, and you have this kind of bubble up in certain ways. There's Trump's messaging we can talk about. But then we also have this potential national security crisis arriving this weekend with the lapse of the FISA authorities to conduct warrantless surveillance against America's enemies. And it seems as though Trump is reaching an impasse here with Congress over fisa, because he is really sticking with his plan to have the housing director and Northwestern University journalism graduate, not that there's anything wrong with journalists. Bill Pulte served as acting director after Tulsi Gabbard leaves office next week. And we can get into the details there, but that's my framing mechanism. William Safire, once again, relevant. And, of course, the four I's are all related. They're interrelated, they're connected in ways we can explore.
- [05:27]
Jon Podhoretz
So history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. And the ineptitude part, of course, connects backward through the other three eyes. Inflation rising is not really an example of ineptitude, because if it has a direct consequence of a direct policy choice in Iran, then that's not ineptitude, but it will be experienced by the American people as political ineptitude, by our leaders in failing to keep costs or the
- [06:06]
Matthew Continetti
simple way that Trump is talking about inflation is, in my view, political ineptitude. Saying yesterday in the Oval Office, I love the inflation. Only later to walk it back slightly.
- [06:20]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, well, he said he loved that it wasn't higher.
- [06:23]
Matthew Continetti
It was right. I love the inflation. But of course, that, that second part, and then the subsequent interview with, I believe, the New York Post, where he said, no, I understand people are hurting. That will not be in the Democratic campaign ads this fall. It will just be the first part. I love the inflation that you will see on your televisions during the World Series over and over and over again. Right.
- [06:45]
Jon Podhoretz
The question of ineptitude and Israel goes to the something we're not going to know until November, which is to say, what if the American people don't really like all of this incredible hostility toward Israel and the almost open embrace of antisemitism by the Democratic Party and are asked to judge the Democratic Party in November, having Democratic Party and many candidates in it having, like, rushed headlong into an embrace of these positions. I hope that that will be the case and that this will have be seen as one of the more inept ideological decisions of our time. But we won't know that until November. And then, of course, Iran, just on Israel.
- [07:40]
Matthew Continetti
And just on Israel for a moment. And we don't need to get into the details, because that's not really where all the breaking news is today. But of course, part of the problem is that we've gone over the past four months or three months from Operation Epic Fury, where the US Israel relationship was stronger than ever. Trump, of course, had reached the deal that had freed the hostages in 2025. He'd bombed Iran twice. We were fully integrated with the IAF and the idf. Trump has referred himself to himself as a war president and, of course, said that Prime Minister Netanyahu is a war minister. Now we're in a place, or at least we were in a place at the beginning of the week. We'll see where we are at the beginning of next week. But now we're in a place where Trump had internalized the Iranian view that what happens in the northern sector between Hezbollah and Israel is connected to negotiations between Iran and the United States. Trump had really pressured Netanyahu not to proceed with Israeli offensives against Hezbollah in Beirut and to confine the fighting to kind of just that period area around the Latani River. We also have. So Israel's gone from what, great partner to almost a kind of, kind of, you know, a weight or, you know, or. I don't want to say it's an antagonistic relationship, but it's not as good. And that was also expressed when Trump mused, as he tends to do lately, that Netanyahu might not stand for reelection. That, of course, won't be the case. He is. Netanyahu is going to run for another term as prime minister. And we also have the J.D. vance interviews lately that have just been. I'm not a fan of those interviews. No. Including, you know, including his comments that, you know, we, you know, America, Israel has its interests and America has our interests. And America's interest is in denying Iran a nuclear weapon. Well, yeah, I think that's Israel's Interest, too. I think that, I think that's been like the mission of Bibi Netanyahu's life.
- [10:09]
Seth Mandel
I've heard him mention it once.
- [10:10]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, a few times. Don't you?
- [10:12]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah.
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Matthew Continetti
And then there was another interview with CBS from Vance just the other day where again, he's trying to create some type of daylight. I don't understand why. Well, I do kind of understand why, but I don't think it's necessary for him to do so. So that's just on how Israel is becoming one of these four eyes for Trump.
- [10:32]
Abe Greenwald
Can I want to venture to swap out one of the I's or maybe augment the list with an addition. But I think what we're seeing, to the extent that we. I don't. That the problems are ineptitude. I think incoherence is a better and a uniquely Trumpian word here. And there's a through line through all of it as we're trying to figure out where do we stand with Iran, where do we now stand with Israel? How long is this war supposed to go on? How long is the fake ceasefire supposed to go on? We are really adrift in a way that I can't recall really ever being before, in the sense that I don't know what to make of day to day events.
- [11:36]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay, so if you look today and
- [11:38]
Abe Greenwald
you look at four weeks ago, it's the same. We're stuck in the same miasma.
- [11:44]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay, but we're not necessarily. Because some major shift happened yesterday. Unless it didn't. I mean, it did happen. We fired 49 Tomahawk missiles at Iran in response to the belligerency that restarted with the attack on the Apache helicopter and now has gone to Trump saying, they waited too long, they're tapping us along. They're playing us for suckers. He said yesterday, they're playing us for suckers. That is a very important Rubicon for him to have crossed. If he actually internalizes the idea that this negotiation effectively has been a lifeline to the Iranian regime and to the IRGC and to its war aims and to its hopes for surviving this conflict and looking to the world as though it fought the United States, at least to some kind of a draw, that is not an impression that he wants to make. And he went kinetic. And then this morning he is now saying, and again, there's no reason to believe that this is real because he said it before in much more graphic terms, but he said, soon we will take Carg Island. Kharg island is the export facility, location of the export facility for Iranian oil. And that is a very serious Rubicon to cross, because you can't take Carg island without putting boots on the ground. You cannot hold territory against the country whose territory it is unless you put people there who plant the flag and create a defensive perimeter and say, this is ours now. It's not something.
- [13:46]
Seth Mandel
And you have to be. And you. And you have to know to expect to have to hold it with force for a long time. Right? I mean, you have to. There's a.
- [13:54]
Jon Podhoretz
There, There.
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Seth Mandel
Any, Any. Any taken territory in Iran will lead almost immediately to an insurgency. And then Trump will have the questions that he's been trying to avoid having in his foreign policy interventions. He's been hawkish, he's been interventionist, but he has. He clearly has wanted, for obvious reasons, to avoid getting bogged down in an insurgency. And those words will be flung at him.
- [14:21]
Matthew Continetti
I think the threat. I think that threat of insurgency in Carg island might not be the primary. I mean, it is an island. You could clear it. I think the real threat to our troops who were occupying Kharg island would come from the air and come from.
- [14:39]
Seth Mandel
Right. Well, if you're from drone, if you clear the island, then it's just one big target for drones and missiles and all that stuff.
- [14:45]
Jon Podhoretz
Although, again, do the Iranians. I mean, this is why seizing Carg island is actually strategically very sound, and I think it's interesting to destroy their own oil export facilities to get back at us.
- [15:04]
Matthew Continetti
Well, the targets of the last two nights of raids or strikes have been on IRGC positions in the Strait, which I think is important to note, because what seems to be the case is if Trump recognizes that the phony ceasefire is no longer working to his advantage, which, of course, it hasn't been working to his advantage since he imposed it on April 8th. But if he's finally coming to that realization, as I hope he is, what we're beginning to see is the almost kind of surfacing of or resurfacing of Project Freedom, which, if you recall, first a ceasefire was imposed, then the negotiations collapsed, then the blockade began, and then they announced Project Freedom to open up the strait, to guide the ships out of the strait. And almost as soon as Project Freedom was announced, it was canceled because the Iranians responded by firing missiles at Saudi Arabia and other Gulf powers. What we learned from Trump, who he is, Mr. Taki these days, man, he picking up at that phone in the Situation Room, you call him, he'll tell you everything about what's going on in the war. But we learned from Trump just yesterday is that in fact, Project Freedom never really ended. It went underground. And they have escorted, I believe, around 200 ships through the Strait of Hormuz without incident. I mean, obviously there's been these firings throughout the ceasefire, but 200 is a pretty good number now. It's nowhere near the normal traffic, but I also think it might explain why oil prices have not skyrocketed. Brent crude is under $100 as we speak on June 11th in the morning after Trump has said that there's going to be another night of strikes and eventually we're going to seize Cargill. But in any case, we have this sense that we're finally beginning to pursue the same strategy we should have pursued from the outset, and which we were pursuing until Trump stopped the war in the beginning of April.
- [17:33]
Jon Podhoretz
You know, when I go out and people who are listeners to the podcast see me on the street, they're always asking me, is that quince is what you're wearing? Quints. And the answer is yes, it's usually quince. And why I keep coming back to quince is because they focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Think breathable linen and soft organic cotton, particularly for summer. Well made basics, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still effortless. Quince European linen pants and shirts, perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation, starting at just $34. Their tees are soft and easy to wear and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for cooler summer nights. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quint.com commentary for free shipping on your order. And 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U y n c e.com commentary for free shipping and and 365 day returns. Quince.com commentary. So I've said since that, since the day that he imposed the ceasefire that we're seeing a unique psychological battle going on. And it's weird to think about this in the way that I am thinking about it, which is like he scared himself, right? He said, I'm going to destroy your civilization. And at some point he thought to himself, I went too far. This is too far, because I don't know where to go unless I destroy their civilization. Of course I'm not going to destroy their civilization. So we better call a halt or slow things down. This is all in his head. That's the weird part. Iran has done absolutely nothing. It violates the ceasefire. It's firing missiles at Fire missiles at Israel. Fire missile at the Gulf. We're not a threat from Iran. We can still act with impunity by choice. He has said, okay, let's make a deal. They're not making a deal. Now he's got three or four of his intimates whom he has tasked with making a deal, who keep coming back to him and saying, we're close to a deal, or I think we have a deal, or there may be terms for a deal. The negotiating partner appears to be Arachi, the Prime Minister, who may be prime minister of nothing, because it may be that the IRGC has taken over the country. This is essentially like, I don't know how you would describe it. It's like the Marines taking over the country. It's essentially a kind of military coup. And they don't have to listen to no prime minister. And he's there to tap them along and to play us for suckers. And Witkoff and Jared and Tom Barrack and whoever else, sure look like suckers to me. I mean, at what point do you spend two months sitting around a table getting bullshitted by the Iranians? Like, how long are you gonna put up with it? Like, don't you have a spine? Get out of the room, tell them you're done, and you're gonna tell the President that you're a bad actor and that he should whomp the tar out of you.
- [21:08]
Matthew Continetti
And we've done this twice before, right? I mean, there were negotiations before Operation Midnight Hammer, and then there was a round of negotiations before Operation Epic Fury. Now we're in the kind of the third round of negotiations. So it does raise the question, well, why did Trump do the ceasefire? We had this conversation on the podcast last week. I think he was scared about the economy and the potential political fallout, the continuing political fallout. I think he was worried that we were short of some of our high end munitions and in particular our air defense. And that air defense, of course, needs to protect the Gulf allies. And the Gulf allies were saying that, look, we're taking the brunt of Iranian retaliation. The missile fires at Israel, of course, were terrible and kept Israel in a state of perpetual alert and people living in their basements and in their shelters. But the real barrages were the short range missiles and drones fired at the Gulf allies. And I think they were the ones saying, trump, you can't, we need a break. But now it's clear that the ceasefire wasn't a ceasefire and that of course, the Iranians have no intention of signing a deal. And I think the Apache was a wake up call for Trump. And I believe that he, instead of listening to the dealmakers, he listened to Secretary Hegseth and Chairman Kaine. I hope he spoke to Admiral Cooper, the head of centcom, and they're saying, you have to respond. We can't wait for an American to die. Like you said, we have to actually show the Iranians we mean business. And just at one more point this morning, I learned that Arakchi is also a published author, and his book is called the Power of Principles and Rules of Political and Diplomatic Negotiation. I'm sure it sounds better in the original Farsi, but you have the power of negotiation up against the art of the deal. And so far, the power of negotiation had the leverage. So what Trump needs to continue to do, what he started doing 48 hours ago, is reassert the leverage by reminding the Iranians that we are the military power and we can, as you say, act with impunity.
- [23:42]
Jon Podhoretz
I want to add to your analysis of the wake up call of the Apache, a positive form of the wake up call that has a kind of weirdly not mystical effect, but has a kind of interesting visionary effect, which is the rescue of the Apache pilots by an unmanned waterborne drone that I'm not sure we even knew existed until it went and saved those guys.
- [24:18]
Matthew Continetti
It had never been used in this type of operation.
- [24:21]
Jon Podhoretz
Right.
- [24:21]
Matthew Continetti
We knew that they were around, but they'd never been used like this before, which is just incredible.
- [24:26]
Jon Podhoretz
Right? So this is like a reminder not only to Trump, but should be a reminder to everybody that we're a next generation military power fighting a last generation military power. And yes, if we have used up a lot of the stores of our next generation materiel, that is problematic and something we need to be judicious about as we go forward and not be simply completely without restraint in what we fire. But it's good to know or good to remember that just like the discombobulator popped out of nowhere to disable whoever was protecting Maduro in Venezuela and allowed us to just like pull him out of his office, put him on a boat, put him on a helicopter, and he's now in Brooklyn here in the Metropolitan Correctional center awaiting trial. That was a weapon we didn't know about. Israel used a weapon that we didn't know about in 2024 against the Iranians. We used a weapon that nobody knew about in 2025 against the Iranians. And now we've made use of this almost magical robot out of nowhere on the water to pull these guys and save them from a helicopter that was just shot down over in the sea. It's amazing enough that a helicopter crash involves survival of anybody, let alone that the pilots are saved unmolested. And it should be giving us confidence, and not just us, but like, all Americans or all people who are really paying attention that this is our war to lose. And there's some weird way in which Trump lost that thread or that understanding, like, this is our war to lose. The Iranians have. No.
- [26:33]
Seth Mandel
He also undercuts that confidence with the way that he's been talking publicly about this, Right? Like, it's not just. It's not just make a threat and then back off or don't follow through or something like that. It's also the way. Look, let's look at the way he talked about Carg island yesterday, right, which was, you know, I would like to take Carg Island. That's my. My preferred strategy for all this. I said, let's just take Carg Island. But Americans don't seem to have the stomach for it. And I, you know, they want our troops home. And look, I want our troops home, too. And it's this. This is an internal monologue that has been made external. This is the way you think inside your head. But he is arguing with himself as if he's already lost the argument to take Carg island on the same day and the same night where he is threatening or trying to threaten to take Carg Island. So I think that he needs to also believe in the American people more than he does, which is that we like a victory and we like success. And I think that he should know that if he leads the country in the right direction and takes the right action, even if that action is bold and risky, Americans will, you know, will appreciate it, will have his back.
- [27:47]
Abe Greenwald
See, I'm sorry to be a big bummer here. I mean, we're all kind of bummed. But I don't believe that Trump has crossed any kind of Rubicon, because,
- [27:59]
Seth Mandel
for
- [27:59]
Abe Greenwald
one thing, it's very clear that what he's trying to do is apply pressure on his current interlocutors to get to a deal. And I don't think that's wise. All the telegraphing of American action over these past few days could serve no other purpose. I mean, if you really want to defeat the. The enemy militarily, you don't announce tonight we will be bomb. Tonight. You're gonna get a lot of bombs coming your way. You're gonna get a lot of missiles coming your way. You're gonna get a lot of drones coming. The switch that he has to make in his mind is he has to pulverize whatever remnants of the current leadership he's dealing with and reset the clock.
- [28:53]
Matthew Continetti
I agree with you, Abe, but I would just say that there is a difference in approach to those negotiations you mentioned, which is that up until Tuesday night, Trump. Trump was alternating between diplomacy and force, which is a mistake. And if you read Kissinger's memoirs, this is like on the third page he says that is the mistake American presidents always make and that the rest of the world, true realpolitik, is that you combine force and diplomacy. And so what's happened as a result of the Apache incident is that he has now switched from, I just want to have a negotiation. I'm not going to do, you know, let Iran fire off its missiles. Israel, Iran, you stop fighting. We're not going to respond. Maybe we'll have a little love tap. As he said, you know, now he has switched to I am going to pummel you every night until you sign the deal. And while I agree with you that he needs to take one more additional step to recognize there is no deal, this nonetheless, I think is a positive step because it is getting us off the mat and telling Iran, you can't knock us around anymore.
- [30:20]
Jon Podhoretz
So the worst part, the worst possibility, which combines what both you and Abe just said, is that he wants to bomb them into submission to make the deal. But what if the deal is. Is the deal that they got to Sunday, which is to say they've spent two months moving, I assume inexorably toward the Iranian position, as happens in the art of negotiation by Prime Minister Arachi, the power of negotiation, which is they're saying no. So if you wanna make progress, you have to say, well, what about this? What about that? What about the other thing? And once we start going kinetic again, the deal should reset to zero. Meaning the deal is unconditional surrender. You give us the dust and the regime should collapse. Whatever you want to say. Everything that we have negotiated thus far no longer is no longer on the table.
- [31:25]
Matthew Continetti
Open up the strait and stop your fantasies of having this toll system. We can take care of the dust to me. I mean, I know this isn't a side. The dust to me is a side issue. We can take care of the. Israel and America are not going to let anyone get near that dust. And we now have proven that we can bomb whatever sites we know at will. Right? The issue is the strait. That's the issue. They need to open it up, no tolls.
- [31:49]
Jon Podhoretz
Right. But I'm saying, just in general, my fear is that the working document has become a fetish inside the administration, to the negotiators and even to Trump, who keeps saying, it's such a great deal. We have such a great deal that they're going to do this, get the Iranians to say uncle, and that what they're gonna hand them is the piece of paper. That's a lousy deal. That is the lousy deal that they would have happily taken before the Apache helicopter, apparently, that they would have taken before the Apache helicopter was shot down and that the.
- [32:28]
Matthew Continetti
Before Israel, before Israel and Iran had the exchange. Right. Because that's what the Iranian propaganda machine was saying, is that, well, we were about to sign the deal until Israel struck Beirut. But one priority we all should have is we need to prevent Pakistan from making any requests in the next few weeks.
- [32:44]
Jon Podhoretz
It is very important. Yes, it's very important.
- [32:46]
Matthew Continetti
Because if the field marshal makes a request, President Trump seems to always submit.
- [32:56]
Eric Gertler
From the State House to the courthouse, in the emergency room and in the classroom, Americans are losing trust in their leaders. In a 2025 U.S. news and World Report survey, 85% of Americans said government leaders care more about their own power than the people they serve. 73% are disappointed in health care leaders, 72% in business, and 68 in education. But there are still leaders worth believing in. I'm Eric Gertler, CEO and executive chairman of U.S. news World Report. This is the Best Leaders podcast sponsored by the Noble Reach Foundation. On this show, we'll go deeper into the stories, challenges and lessons of extraordinary leaders across public service, business, healthcare and education. You can find the Best Leaders podcast for from U.S. news and World Report on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:56]
Matt Ebert
I started with one shop. No college degree, no big investors. It was just a willingness to work. Over time, that one shop turned into a multi billion dollar business called Crash Champions. All the lessons I learned along the way came from the grind. And that's what my show Pod Crash is all about. We have real conversations with people who've built things the hard way. We talk to founders, athletes and blue collar leaders who kept going when things got tough. You'll hear stories of grit, leadership and growth. Plus real world lessons you can take back to your team and your life tomorrow.
- [34:30]
Jon Podhoretz
When you get momentum, you step on the gas. That's how you get separation from everybody else. I was at Harvard Law School. I was, blah, blah, blah. I looked up, let Me tell you something, there's kids in my neighborhood putting in sheetrock that is smarter than you. AI is going to disrupt a lot of stuff. It is never going to disrupt physical blue collar trade skill.
- [34:48]
Matthew Continetti
And the guy just looked at me and he said it's bloody impossible.
- [34:51]
Jon Podhoretz
So I asked him this question.
- [34:52]
Eric Gertler
I said it's impossible.
- [34:54]
Matt Ebert
Unless that's podcrash with me, Matt Ebert watch on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcast.
- [35:09]
Jon Podhoretz
So we'll see. I mean this is the other problem is of course Trump's word is worth nothing. He said somebody counted. He said 57 times that we've won this war.
- [35:23]
Matthew Continetti
So I mean, and I think he said 38 times that the deal is imminent.
- [35:28]
Jon Podhoretz
Right? So what he says means nothing. So therefore, fine. What matters is how we act. And we will be able to determine how the war is going by how we act and not how he wants to communicate his message. He is committed to this Harold Hill music man. You can play these instruments just at will and I'm willing that we've won the war and there's nothing else to hit and all of that. Remember how there were no more targets and then now they fired off 30 or 40 ballistic missiles. Apparently there are targets cuz they still have ballistic missiles. So it all depends on what we do. And the reason that I mentioned the dust is that he talks about the dust. That is to say if his terms before February 8th were you're giving me the dust, there's no reason for him on June 11th not to say we're back to you giving me the dust. You've been tapping me along and playing me for a sucker. Well, the deal, we're resetting. We're back to 000. We're in the Catbird seat. You give us what we want or we're gonna take Carg Island. And you know what? We're gonna bomb your civilian infrastructure. Cause you know what? You don't even have civilian infrastructure because you're a military dictatorship and every single, single piece of your territory is dual use. If you use a bridge and there's a tank that rolls over that bridge, that's a military bridge and we're gonna blow it up and we can see everything you're doing from the air. And so that's where he could go
- [37:15]
Matthew Continetti
to just on that point. There is this aspect of Trumpian diplomacy where he thinks that if he's quote unquote nice to bad people, they will somehow reciprocate. So we're in this moment where we're arguing Over. Well, is he going to hit the civilian infrastructure? What is civilian. It's dual. Like you say, the bridge network. Okay. No, I mean, when Clinton bombed Bosnia in the 90s, there was no debate over whether we were going to hit bridges or certain types of power plants. Same with Iraq, both wars. I don't know how many bridges there are in Libya. When Barack Obama bombed Libya for eight months in 2011. But I didn't make. But he is the one who's made this a whole. And I think he did it thinking and having been told that, look, you don't want to strike anywhere that will get the Iranian public up in arms against America. Right. But at the same time, you are taking targets off the list that would harm the regime, that would remove its capacity to resupply. Right. If those mobile missile launchers don't have a road to go on, it's gonna be harder for them to get to the missile city. And it's the same thing. During the ceasefire, Iran would shoot off rockets. They hit the Kuwaiti airport all the time. We weren't doing anything. Because I think in Trump's mind, it was like, well, if we don't do anything, maybe they'll understand that we want a deal and so they won't do anything in return. I think that's the wrong approach. And of course, Trump, because he alternates so rapidly, he knows it's the wrong approach, too. Where we're getting to.
- [39:21]
Seth Mandel
One thing I would say about the what to bomb is the any legitimate military target should be on the list, because any finite resource is going to be mostly in the hands of the regime. There isn't really a way to make war on the regime, which without also hurting the public in some way, in that sense. Right. In other words, there, the regime is going to have what it needs to survive. But even if that means taking it from. Hoarding it from the public. And so we have this discussion on sanctions, too, which is that you can hurt the public on sanctions. And. And that's true, but you can't take out a regime without taking out that regime. Right. And so at some point, you have to decide whether the. If the goal is regime change, to go for it and do it as quickly as possible, so there can be a recovery period, which they're preparing for, or don't do it. But the public, you know, the regime uses the public as a human shield. You know, it's not just a Hamas thing.
- [40:32]
Jon Podhoretz
To be fair to the Iranian leadership, we're the ones who unilaterally decided that their public was a human shield, by which I mean that what was said was we want to keep Iran as intact as possible for the uprising and for the regime that follows, while we refuse to declare that one of the aims of the war effort is regime
- [41:00]
Seth Mandel
change, because I agree 100%.
- [41:03]
Jon Podhoretz
That's so noxious. And that gets to Abe's point about incoherence and not incompetence, because we haven't told the Iranian people that what we want to do at the end of the day is get rid of this regime, which we cannot work with because we cannot trust it not to continue to try to develop nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles and be.
- [41:28]
Abe Greenwald
Trump has praised Mujtaba Khamenei.
- [41:33]
Jon Podhoretz
That was one of his gimmicks. Yeah, but that was. Yeah, that was one of.
- [41:38]
Matthew Continetti
Like to meet him.
- [41:39]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, yeah, that was one of his gimmicks last week, again, he says it
- [41:42]
Matthew Continetti
about everybody, you know, Right. He's going to meet everybody. You'll meet Kim Jong Un.
- [41:46]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, he's very. Well. He's very well thought of more than his father.
- [41:51]
Matthew Continetti
That's my point. If he thinks that if he compliments these people that they're going to give. And he did the same thing with Putin. Right. It's all about Putin. But he never gets anything in return.
- [42:01]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, well, and he did it with Kim Jong Un, too.
- [42:06]
Matthew Continetti
Every dictator, he thinks, oh, yeah. And I think it's because he know with Trump, if you compliment Trump, you do get something in return.
- [42:12]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, right, exactly.
- [42:14]
Matthew Continetti
He's projecting himself onto these other strong men.
- [42:17]
Jon Podhoretz
But this is the weird point, which is weirdly enough, if we're not seeking regime change, but we are seeking the defeat of the regime, that's to say what we want is to win this war. But whatever the hell happens in Iran after we win this war and get our goals right, which is now opening the straits and some form of control, either international control, or we get whatever of the fissile materials that they possess and an end to their ballistic missile program. Whatever the hell happens after that is not our business. If that's actually how he feels, then he should blow up all the bridges and the power plants and everything else. Like, there's no reason not to. He's already basically expressed. He's fundamentally or implicitly expressed the idea that our purpose is serving our interests. Our interests are to win this war and to win it as fast and as decisively as possible. And if that means hitting, you know, that means blacking out Iran, then we should black out Iran. If what we want is to have an intact, relatively intact Iran that can move into the future grateful to the United States that it has been delivered from this 47 year hell of being under the thumb of this theocratic millenarian regime that shoots women in the streets and will kill 30,000 people at a moment's notice if it has to. Then he should do that or he should tell them that he's, you know, we're the cavalry and we're riding in to save the day and it's part of our goal. But he can't do. But he shouldn't be doing that without getting credit for it. And he shouldn't be, or he shouldn't be doing it at all if his purpose is to be a real politic. I don't wanna be sentimental. I'm not like these idiots who go in here and, you know, try to help, you know, try to impose democracy on, you know, on these people. So don't. So crush them, you know, I would prefer that you do it the other way. You know, I would prefer that we announce we're doing regime change. Our aim here is to pummel them into such submission that they not only say uncle, but that they walk out. Basically, Frog marched in handcuffs, but he doesn't wanna do that. So he needs to follow the strategy that follows logically from the position that he is taking, which is they gotta lose and they gotta lose bad. And they've been like tapping us along and playing us for suckers. Well, when you play me for a sucker, you're not gonna have a bridge anymore to escape from the next missile that we're gonna fire. And that when the Israelis find out where you are. Now, we've had two months where we didn't do it, but I'm sure the Israelis know where everybody is, just like they always did and will drop bombs on your head and kill you. So, like, just say it or don't say it. And I think that's where the Rubicon could have been crossed. I don't know, it's very hard to tell. But the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Now let's move on to domestically. So we do have this very bizarre phenomenon here which is the extension of the FISA system, which allows us to use warrantless wiretaps to follow our. To track our enemies through signal and all of that. And the Senate, even Senate Republicans are holding, potentially holding this hostage because it goes out of business on Saturday.
- [46:15]
Matthew Continetti
Senate Democrats are Senate Democrats. Yes. It will expire midnight Saturday.
- [46:21]
Jon Podhoretz
Right.
- [46:21]
Matthew Continetti
Okay. And there was just to set the table a little bit. There had been a bipartisan compromise that was actually expected to sail through, you know, the section 702 of FISA and the warrantless surveillance. This was inaugurated after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States in a way to address real gaps in our intelligence gathering. One gap was the wall of separation between the CIA and FBI that was removed after 9 11. But another was the idea that you needed to have judicial warrants to wiretap nationals who were in communication, foreign nationals who were in communication with U.S. citizens. And the fact is that if we had had Section 702 authority prior to 9 11, we probably would have picked up Zacharias Moussaoui, the 20th hijackers communications, because, you know, he was at that flight school, I believe, in Minnesota. And there was just one way perhaps that we could have averted the worst terrorist attack on American soil, the worst killing of American civilians since Pearl Harbor. So this was an important authority. It has been in place since the 911 attacks. It was revealed to the public in 2006, and that's when it became a big political issue. Thank you, New York Times. And ever since then, whenever it's up for reauthorization, there's fights. For a long time, the fights were coming from Democrats and the civil Libertarian wing of the Democratic party. But after 2016 and the Russia collusion thing, scandal, and the revelation that the FISA had been inappropriately used to survey Trump team members, the right has raised hackles over it. All this is to say that it's always been in place, despite all these fights, because of its essential nature to American intelligence gathering. Axios this morning offhandedly says that 50% or more of the Presidential Daily Brief derives from FISA intelligence gathering. Now, we don't, you know, who knows where they got that number? But that's a sizable thing. And it is the case that we have had no 911 like attacks in this on the United States since 9 11. Right. And I think having this tool is one reason for that. So where are we now? Well, this compromised.
- [49:16]
Jon Podhoretz
I want to interrupt because you're making an extraordinarily important point, which is that we don't know what 702 has saved us from by definition. In other words, if we intercept, interdict, and end plots before they begin or do whatever it is that we need to do to do that, when they don't involve, you know, high publicity indictments and things like that, like the ones that we got on the Lackawanna Six, there are people that no one remembered. That was like 20 years ago, a cell in New York State that was, you know, training to stage a major terrorist attack. But that we know about that because they indicted them and that's a public matter. But I mean, there could literally have been hundreds of plots that were uncovered.
- [50:09]
Matthew Continetti
And of course, there's a foreign policy component, too, because if we're picking up these communications, then we can know who the baddies are in, say, the Horn of Africa or in Afghanistan or elsewhere. So just where are we now? This compromise, it seems, I mean, it's all hypothetical at this point, but the conventional wisdom in Washington was that the compromise would have gone through in a bipartisan way and 702 authority, the FISA surveillance program would continue uninterrupted. When Trump last week announced that Bill Pulte, the former, well, the current head of the Federal Housing Authority, overseer of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and a real architect of the president's lawfare program against figures like Letitia James and James Comey and Lisa Cook of the Federal Reserve was going to be appointed acting Director of National Intelligence to replace outgoing Tulsi Gabbard. Democrats in the Senate and now in the House said, no way. We do not want this man who has no national security experience and who is clearly a Trump yes man and who was threatened by one of my favorite Trump cabinet members, Scott Besant, on the streets of Georgetown for a beaten.
- [51:38]
Jon Podhoretz
He's gonna give him a beat down.
- [51:40]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah. And by the way, Besant admitted to beat him down in Congress last week.
- [51:47]
Seth Mandel
Maybe Besson conducted negotiations with the.
- [51:50]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, Besant's a hawk, that's for sure. In any case, we don't want this Pulte to be. It's not in charge of our national intelligence. And there's a whole side argument we can get into about what the DNI actually does or whether this is just Trump's way. And Trump has said he kind of wants to close the office. And so that's what Pulte is in there for. Nonetheless, we don't want him there. That's what the Democrats are saying. And because we don't want them there, we're going to hold up fisa. And now we're in this moment, this waiting period where the House is going to vote on FISA today for whatever reason. They're voting on it under suspension of the rules, which requires a two thirds majority. And it's not clear that it's going to reach a two thirds majority. And the Senate might have to vote on it. And it's unclear whether Democrats at the end of the day will come across and vote for. There's also the possibility that Leader Thune, the Senate leader, Republican from South Dakota, could ask for unanimous consent to reauthorize. That would kind of dare a Democrat to say, no, I want to shut this down because of somebody no One outside of D.C. has ever heard of. Regardless, we're at this moment at where the odds are that authority will lapse, at least for a couple days. Trump has asked for a short term extension. Not clear that he's going to get one of those. And it all has to do with, I think, Trump's doubling down on a personnel decision he shouldn't have made in the first place.
- [53:27]
Jon Podhoretz
Right. But I think we need to say that I think there are at least four Republican senators who are opposing Polk's presidency. It's not just Democrats, you know, Cassidy, Cornyn, Murkowski and Collins. I believe, obviously Cassidy and Cornyn now hostile to Trump because he actively worked to have them defeated in their primaries. But these guys are patriots, and if they thought that Pulte was fine, they wouldn't be picking this fight. He clearly isn't fine. It's not clear that he even has a security clearance. He doesn't have a security clearance. So if he get. If he's appointed to sits in that office, he can't actually look at what's on his desk legally because he doesn't have a security clearance. That's insane. It was a ridiculous choice. My guess is it was some kind of weird internal maga. If you're going to lose Tulsi, you got to get somebody that will be satisfying or acceptable to a certain.
- [54:31]
Matthew Continetti
No, John, my understanding is based on public sources. It's actually the opposite, that Pulte presented himself to Trump as a hawk and said, look, I'm backing your policies. Unlike Tulsi Gabbard right now, he also appeals to kind of the Bannon pugilist part of MAGA because of the lawfare. Right. But interestingly enough, the foreign policy side, it seems that he told Trump, look, I'm not gonna be the person who's absent because I disagree with you. I'm gonna do whatever you want. Not just on foreign policy, but also if, hey, can we use this office to pursue our personal agenda as well? Right.
- [55:15]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay. If we move then from that to. By the way, the idea that you can keep an important federal agency shuttered without political consequence, I think has been proved this year. With the shutdown of The Department of Homeland Security over ICE funding. Department of Homeland Security, pretty important department in the U.S. government. And Democrats saw absolutely do not seem to have suffered from, I think a 47 day shutdown. So certainly there's no reason for them to think that there will be any political consequence to doing this. I mean, you know, try to explain to people what the Director of National Intelligence does anyway.
- [55:59]
Matthew Continetti
Negative polarization is a heck of a drug. It really is. The risk is that we're entering a very dangerous moment just in terms of terrorist threats. We have the World cup, you know, that's a soccer tournament, I gather, that starts tonight in Mexico. And the first game in the United States is tomorrow. And then of course we have America's 250th. Even before that on Sunday we have the UFC match, UFC250 on the South Lawn. The claw, I saw it this morning on my commute to work. It's quite impressive. I don't know if it really matches with the Eiffel Tower like the President says, but nor do I want it there permanently. Like he also said or threatened or joked.
- [56:47]
Jon Podhoretz
It looks like something out of the War of the Worlds. It looks out of.
- [56:49]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, it's kind of like the Air Force land. I love the Air Force Memorial in Arlington, Virginia, which is also kind of claw like, but more inspiring. But yeah, it does look like one of those things from the War of the Worlds surfacing. That's Sunday. That's gonna be a major event. And then of course, America's 250th birthday on July 4th. You have a lot of big public events. You do not want FISA dark ahead of that. You don't wait.
- [57:19]
Seth Mandel
This goes back to the point you made earlier, which is that Americans tend not to know about the attacks that have been stopped or prevented or operations that have been disrupted.
- [57:32]
Jon Podhoretz
A very important moment here in New York City. And I'm not, of course, the important moment was the single greatest sports event of my lifetime, the Knicks spurs game last night.
- [57:43]
Matthew Continetti
But.
- [57:43]
Jon Podhoretz
And there's the Knicks hat that if you're watching on YouTube, that Seth just pointed to. But the last two days, when Trump came to. Trump came to game three at Madison's Hore Garden this week. And then they had the second game. And it was crazy what happened in Midtown Manhattan, Like Midtown Manhattan was shut down. I had to walk somewhere to get from an event to somewhere else. And I had to pass through barricades and show IDs and stuff like that. Like it was, it was for literally 15 square blocks were shut down, cops everywhere. Last night, game four, they decided to keep up all of the barricades that had been put in place for Game 3. And people were outraged. They're furious. Like, why is this happening and why are they doing this? And James Duno mas yelled at Mamdani and said, why are you doing this? And I know why they did it, and probably so does he. And so they have risk. There is a risk assessment about terrorism. That's the only reason that they would keep those barricades up. They have some reason to believe that this is a target and that there may be people who are interested in targeting there. There were 50,000 people on the streets of New York for the first game, watching outside Madison Square Garden. Like that is a perfect site for a domestic bombing or something like that. And so.
- [59:21]
Seth Mandel
And last night, the watch parties that sort of went on despite it all, there was a certain amount of chaos. And I'm not criticizing the watch parties. I'm just saying that policing that city at that time with all those different things going on is difficult. And they are basing it on real things. They're not. They're not guessing.
- [59:41]
Jon Podhoretz
Right. So I'm just saying, like, we are actually experiencing some of what might be going on in America over the next month or so. And certainly with the World cup, right? Because the world. These World cup events, some of them are taking place in, you know, like how they're gonna get 100,000 people in and out of stadiums with this kind of risk. We're gonna see a level of security we don't really. Maybe the super bowl has it. I don't know. I've never been around a live Super Bowl. The only thing I've ever been around that's like, that is a political convention. And New York was also shut down in 2004 for that political convention. But they know something. I'm pretty sure they know something. And that or they're not just better be safe.
- [60:37]
Seth Mandel
Well, and not to interrupt again, but in addition, we should just tell people, in addition, when we talk about comparing something to the super bowl, the World cup is starting in Mexico City and will also be playing in Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Houston, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Miami, and the greater New York area.
- [60:56]
Matthew Continetti
Right.
- [60:56]
Seth Mandel
The Meadowlands area, Philadelphia, Seattle, and the San Francisco Bay area. So when we talk about an event of that size, we're talking about 20 events of that size, maybe more. And throughout North America. So that there has to be coordination between the governments and security.
- [61:13]
Jon Podhoretz
And I hate to put it this way, because it's going to sound, I hope, I mean, it really shouldn't sound racist, but this is an event that will be of uncommon interest to people who are not native born Americans. I mean, I was in Pasadena in 1993 when the world cup finals took place. And when the game was over at the Rose bowl and Brazil won, there were 100,000 Brazilians on the streets of Pasadena. And they weren't Americans, they were Brazilians.
- [61:49]
Matthew Continetti
Well, you can kind of see the media efforts to make Americans excited that we are hosting the World Cup. You know, the New York Times published a guide. I mean, the New York Times is giddy. This is like, this is Nick's comeback. What are you talking about? The World cup is coming.
- [62:04]
Jon Podhoretz
Exactly.
- [62:05]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah. So we'll see. I mean, I think from my perspective, the key date is July 4th. Obviously. Terrorists, Islamists, they have a thing for anniversaries. They have long historical memories.
- [62:19]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah.
- [62:19]
Matthew Continetti
And so, by the way, and remember,
- [62:21]
Jon Podhoretz
you know, there was a bizarre, it wasn't even a terrorist event, but there was a parade in Highland Park, Illinois, outside of Chicago where a guy, you know, shot 15 people at a July 4th parade.
- [62:34]
Matthew Continetti
I think. Wasn't there one in Wisconsin? I think even there might have.
- [62:37]
Jon Podhoretz
Not there might have been.
- [62:38]
Abe Greenwald
But like, you know, that was the automobile. Was that.
- [62:43]
Jon Podhoretz
That was Kenosha, the automobile one. Yeah. So, so, but I mean, that wasn't a terrorist event. That was literally like a, like a crazy teenager shooting people from a roof. But you know, that, that's a mo gonna get a group of people together walking slowly down a boulevard with Shriners on little motorcycles and everything like that. Like, who the hell knows what could happen and get Trump thousands of targets, thousands.
- [63:11]
Matthew Continetti
They need, at the very least, they need a short term extension to keep the surveillance in place ahead of these critical dates.
- [63:18]
Jon Podhoretz
Right, okay, two last things. And then, Matt, you have a recommendation? One, we mentioned the inflation number. The inflation number is 4.2%. One thing that should be said is that we underestimate the value of our economy right now because though the inflation rate is at 4.2%, it isn't biting the way it bit in 2022 because the wage growth in the same period as 3.4%, meaning Americans are net losing, are net losers because of inflation. But if the wage growth were 2% or a percent and a half, this could be like catastrophic. And it is not anywhere near catastrophic yet. Trump doesn't deserve credit for that, in my opinion. Really. But the durability and the size and the complexity and the remarkable engine of the American economy is doing its job.
- [64:30]
Matthew Continetti
And also pro growth policies. I mean, fair enough. Key here is energy development. I mean, we are pumping more oil and natural gas out of the United States than ever before. It's one reason why gas prices, again, somewhat bizarrely, I check them every day. They're down. They're down from the high now. They're still up since the war, but they've been falling since the high of $4.50 a gallon nationally in mid May. So that's one pro growth policy, energy. The other, of course, is the tax and regulatory policies, including the embrace of the AI investment boom, which is powering the economy and I think contributing somewhat to the higher productivity we've been experiencing, too. That generates the wage gains, but that runs up against the anti growth aspects of the Trump policy, primarily the tariffs, which if we didn't have the tariffs on our allies, I'm all for tariffs on China. If we didn't have them on our allies, growth would be higher and I think wage growth would be higher as well. And then, now, look, I'm a supporter of the war against Iran, but it's key. The reason why inflation is up so dramatically is because of the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. Energy is overwhelmingly the main driver of this inflation. The core inflation rate was within expectations. It would have been slightly below wage gains. And core inflation is when you remove housing and energy. And one interesting aspect of the report is that strangely, there hasn't been much spillover from the energy inflation onto other sectors of the economy, at least yet. But it's one more reason, again, for Trump to win the war and open the Strait of Hormuz so we can get the oil prices down. Of course, one way we're experiencing this increases travel because jet fuel is astronomical right now. And then just finally you said it. Well, John, there's the inflation number, but that's politically not really the number that matters. The number that matters is net wage growth. And right now we're in a bad space politically because wages were growing ahead of inflation, which was still not at the Fed's target. But nonetheless, wages were growing ahead of inflation throughout 2025. But that growth and gain has been erased.
- [67:02]
Jon Podhoretz
Right.
- [67:03]
Matthew Continetti
And we're still not back where we were prior to the Biden inflation. And it's that reason, I think, that Americans assessments of the economy and Trump's performance on the economy and Trump's job approval and probably their assessment of the war is so in the dumps. Right.
- [67:23]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay. So, Matt, you have a recommendation okay, sorry.
- [67:29]
Matthew Continetti
Okay. I'm going to make this recommendation tepidly. It's more about the context of the recommendation than the recommendation. So I'm very interested in your reactions, my colleagues. I want to say I enjoyed the new documentary Earth, Wind and Fire to be celestial versus that's the weight of the World. It's on hbo, Max. It's directed by. I knew you were going to say that. It's directed by Questlove. Now, I say that I liked this documentary despite the fact that the first voice you hear is from my least favorite person on the planet. Yes, that's right. Barack Hussein Obama is throughout the documentary. Nonetheless, I enjoyed it not only because I like Earth, Wind and Fire's music, but I had never really known the story of the group. And that is communicated in great drama and narrative interest. And then the real reason I wanted to bring it up was this documentary is a reminder to me, someone who did not live through them, of just how bizarre the 1970s were in the United States of America. I mean, truly bizarre. The New Age spirituality, the cultish aspects of American life in the 1970s, of course, the costumes, but also kind of the. You just the griminess of America in the 1970s. It all comes through, and it's just fascinating. I mean, I wanted to just briefly write what was up, what was going on. I said to my wife last night, was there something in the water in the 1970s that produced these exotic. Just these exotic cultural expressions? You know, Maurice White, the founder of Earth, Wind and Fire, he sees Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And so then he gets into UFOs and astral projection. And of course, some of that's coming back today. So for all these reasons, I enjoyed the documentary and I'm willing to recommend it. If you don't like Earth, Wind and Fire, it's probably not worth watching. But I like. Who doesn't like September or some of the other songs? So that's my recommendation.
- [69:50]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, it was. I love it for a number reason, but one, because, yeah, of course I love Earth, Wind and Fire, and they're also. They're kind of overlooked. I mean, they were massive hits, of course. But, like, when, you know, people talk about like the 70s and R& B or funk, and they talk about like Parliament or whatever, and they don't. Earth, Wind and Fire doesn't get its due, you know, in the same way, I think, because they work in some sense because of their eventual commercial breakthrough. And I also. I loved it because, you know, we're in this phase where There are a lot of documentaries about icons and iconic acts, and this is another one of them. But unlike so many of them, it's not just, look how wonderful this guy. Because it's largely about Maurice White, the visionary one, Right.
- [70:45]
Matthew Continetti
It's his life story. And.
- [70:46]
Jon Podhoretz
Yeah, yeah.
- [70:47]
Abe Greenwald
And it's. It's. It's, you know, and the band.
- [70:51]
Matthew Continetti
The band went several iterations of Earth, Wind and Fire.
- [70:56]
Abe Greenwald
Problems?
- [70:57]
Jon Podhoretz
I got a question, because I haven't watched it yet. I adore Earth, Wind and Fire, but I always had this question, and I want to know if it's answered in the documentary. It used to be said Jackie Mason used to have this routine about how gentiles go into a restaurant and it's crowded and they wait for the table and they sit down, they eat their food, and then they leave, and they don't say anything about it. And the Jew walks into the restaurant, looks around and says, this place is a gold mine. This place is a gold mine. So this is the reverse question. Earth, Wind and Fire had 11 or 12 members at its address. Right? Okay. How did they make money?
- [71:40]
Matthew Continetti
How did they not just be part of the documentary?
- [71:43]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay, good.
- [71:44]
Matthew Continetti
Now I'm really gonna watch it again. And this is my thing, is I'm, you know, Maurice White, again, artistic visionary in many ways, but there is this kind of this cultish dimension to him. And he would bring these people around, including his own family members. Right. But then he would also push them away. And there's interesting stuff about how he was born to a single mom in Memphis. The mom leaves him at a very early age to clean houses in Chicago. And so you get some of the black experience. I mean, a lot of it. Because, of course, he becomes very interested in Afrocentrism and then Afro futurism. And he has a fascinating thing I never really realized. The music develops in different ways. So I think when we say we love Earth, Wind and Fire, it's really kind of their funk period, at least for me, that's the music I love. But it kind of started as like this kind of New age jazz collective, you know, and then it became the funk group. And then they get into. I never knew this. The period. You saw this, ava, the early 80s, where he tries to go into the new wave synth direction. And then his solo career, which does not go well. And finally they get back, you see different. You know, you see parts of musical history expressed through the story of Maurice White and his supergroup.
- [73:20]
Jon Podhoretz
I just think now, knowing what I know as a person of my age and Having watched the world of pop music, you know, throughout my lifetime, the real thing was to be a duo like that. I'm sorry, that's the way you made money. Be a duo band. Don't have any more than two. You know, it's pretty easy not to break up if you're especially so much funny that when you break up, you're just going to make money forever and you don't have to split it with 27 other people.
- [73:54]
Matthew Continetti
Especially because the production values of the Earth, Wind and Fire concerts during their height were so enormous. And I had not realized until seeing the documentary that much of this is. Spinal Tap is a parody of Earth, Wind and Fire concerts. Some of the Stonehenge routine where the. The bit where Harry Shearer gets stuck in that capsule. That's the Earth, Wind and Fire innovation. Those capsules. Oh, man.
- [74:24]
Jon Podhoretz
All right. Well, I'm excited to watch it. So there we go. Because some of the music ones lately I've found a little nauseating in their idolatrous.
- [74:34]
Matthew Continetti
This is very well done. And I'll say Questlove, he's a very good documentarian. Cause he also did the documentary that came out for the 50th anniversary of Saturday Night Live's music.
- [74:46]
Jon Podhoretz
Yes.
- [74:46]
Matthew Continetti
And that was. That's also a very good one.
- [74:48]
Jon Podhoretz
That's on Peacock and Summer of Soul, which he won.
- [74:51]
Matthew Continetti
And he did Summer of Soul.
- [74:52]
Jon Podhoretz
Okay. Matt Connetti, thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next week. For Abe and Seth, I'm Jon Podhoritz. Keep the candle.