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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary.
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B
Hope for the Expect the words Some pre.
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C
Champagne, some die of thirst no way of knowing this way it's going Hope.
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B
For the best, expect the worst welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Thursday, November 6th. I'm Abe Greenwald, the executive editor of Commentary. John Pothard, our usual host, cannot be with us because he is en route to Commentary hq. He is traveling, so I'm going to be holding down the fort for today. Joining me is social commentary columnist and senior fellow at aei, Christine Rosen. Hi Christine.
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D
Hi Abe.
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B
And columnist at the Free Press and host of the Breaking History podcast and contributing editor to commentary. Eli Lake. Hi, Eli.
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C
It's great to be here. Abe, for the Gen X edition of the Commentary Roundtable.
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D
Enthusiastic?
- [03:30]
C
Exactly. We're only going to talk about. Pump up the volume, Slackers. Dazed and Confused. Of course, Our favorites, the Counting Crows, Nirvana.
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D
I have to tell you, I was walking down the street yesterday and I saw a little girl being picked up from preschool and she was crying.
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A
And.
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D
And I looked a little closer because poor little thing, she was wearing a like, baby Nirvana T shirt. And I thought, does she know about Cobain? Like, why is she crying? And I really like that.
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C
Right.
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B
Better than a Shay shirt.
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D
Yes, I agree, I agree. I actually approve of the toddler Gen X wear.
- [04:08]
B
So it is a shame that our colleague Eliana Johnson cannot be here today because she had an extraordinary scoop yesterday at the Washington Free Beacon, which was a. She got the leaked footage of an emergency all hands on deck meeting at the Heritage foundation, in which Heritage President Kevin Roberts said, I messed up, I'm sorry, full stop, and then sat for about an hour of abuse like the. Like a. Like the dunk clown at a. At a carnival. Although there were also some notes of support and then some very disturbing comments toward the end having to do with Israel and Shabbat dinner. But we'll get into all the details. But I think I just want to say off the bat that obviously and everyone should go to the Free Beacon and read Eliana's write up and watch this video. There are so many extraordinary moments. So we're a week out from when Roberts came out and defended Tucker Carlson, embraced Tucker Carlson institutionally after Carlson had on the white supremacist, Stalinist grab bag nut job Nick Fuentes for a fluffy interview.
- [05:38]
C
And.
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B
And clearly that was a massive disaster. In fact, just before we get into talking about the meeting, Roberts has issued yet another cleanup video, this time apologizing for the words venomous coalition. Was it coalition? Venomous. Whatever it was, this one is venomous coalition of critics trying to divide the right. Yeah.
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D
Right.
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C
So this one is interesting though, Gabe, because in this one he says that he'll stand against anti Semitism even when. What does he uses this phrase to challenge our friend Tucker Carlson. So that's the first indication that it's not a denunciation of Carlson. It's more of like a kind of like, all right, you know what? Like, I am not just going to blindly defend this guy all the time. So that, that I thought was interesting because all of the other cleanup attempts were just like, fuentes is bad. But nothing about Tucker and finally, now there's an interesting backstory here, which has started to come out on Twitter and I have not been able to confirm it, but the. But some people have been tweeting that there is a. Again, not confirmed. So let's just. These are kind of in the allegations that there is a non disparagement agreement between Heritage and the Tucker Carlson Network because of, I guess, the ad buys or something. I don't know. There was some non disparagement agreement that was legal. And that's why, I mean, I don't know if that sounds kind of crazy to me. Like if Heritage is buying ads on the Tucker Carlson Network, they'd have to sign an agreement to never disparage Tucker Carlson Network. That doesn't make much sense to me. On the other hand, people who know what they're talking about, who are like kind of Heritage insiders or people like that, have said that this is the case and it was tweeted by someone who was tweeted by an account that knows what they're talking about. So I just put that out there. That, that, that may be the reason why Eliana was able to get that full video is not because, you know, a disgruntled or an upset Heritage staffer leaked it to her, but maybe that was a kind of official leak in order to sort of have Kevin do that without violating whatever this agreement. That's the speculation. I'm just putting it out.
- [08:01]
D
I was unconvinced by the second attempt at a video apology. Non apology. Of course. I also have an intrinsic mistrust of anyone who says I did something wrong, full stop. That just seems an unnecessary and overly dramatic signaling mechanism that maybe it's not a genuine apology, but I was actually heartened in some ways to see and hear the pushback from staffers within Heritage, particularly Amy Swearer, who's a fellow there who was unrelentingly rigorous and took a scalpel to some of the claims that. And some weasel words and weaselly behavior that Kevin Roberts has demonstrated over the last week. So she is someone who, if she needs to leave Heritage, everybody should try to hire her. She's clearly brave, honest, and she. There was no ad hominem. It was just, this is the result of what you're doing. This is how it is perceived. Not as some sort of irrational emotional outburst, but simply the consequences of your actions as a leader. And it was one of the most thoroughly rigorous prosecutions of a bad idea that I've ever seen.
- [09:07]
B
I want to read it in full. I think it deserves that. It's like Barry's. Like Bari Weiss's resignation letter to the New York Times, this was an oration that should go down in The Annals of 21st Century Political discourse as a turning point or a placeholder. So here is what Amy Swearer had to say to Kevin Roberts. As you yourself have said, now is the time for courage. Dr. Roberts, over the last week, you have shown a stunning lack of both courage and judgment. Tucker Carlson invited a Holocaust denying neo Nazi onto his show and then spent roughly two hours doing little more than flirting with him. And when our friends and allies on the right, staunch conservatives, rightly and reasonably criticized Tucker for throwing softball questions at a Hitler apologist, we had options. At that point. We could have, and in my opinion, should have joined them. We also could have just said nothing at all. Instead, we managed to scrape together an initial response that at best was equal parts incoherent, unhelpful and naive. At worst, it was more akin to a master class in cowardice that ran cover for the most unhinged dregs of the far right. The next four days for me were even worse because you appeared to dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge any real semblance of accountability. Nothing about that seemed to indicate you really wanted the buck to stop with you. It seemed at first as though you wanted the buck to stop with your chief of staff. And only after it became clear that Ryan, that's Ryan Newhouse falling on his sword would be insufficient, did we finally see you manage the courage to utter the words I made a mistake. And quite frankly, even if you had managed to say that four hours after that video, it would have been a weak response. But, sir, you took four days to say that. We watched. You seem perfectly willing to attack all our friends and allies on the right, but say nothing about the. About the guy who said he dislikes nothing more than Christian Zionists, a term he seems to use to mean basically anyone who supports Israel and includes many people in this room. Those are not the actions of a man who, quote, knows what time it is. Frankly, I'm not even sure they're the actions of a man who knows how to tell time.
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C
Hero.
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D
Well, she. And the other thing I think is important that she pointed out there is that the issue is really Israel and the Jews. This is the subtext of all of this. And we saw later, when some other staffers seemingly are terrified of being invited to a Shabbat dinner, that there's a real. Yeah, a lot of it's Roman Catholic, Orthodox, There's a young movement of very orthodox observant Catholics and Orthodox Christians, many of whom are, I guess are employed at Heritage, who seem to be quite clear about where they draw lines in the religious sphere. And this is interesting to me because Heritage is a secular institution on the right. There are plenty of Catholic institutions, Christian institutions. We have all these, you know, big tent out there. But I think one of the subtle criticisms that's been made in disclosures from current staff and former staff about Heritage under Kevin Roberts is how Catholic it's become and that there is this new battle line being drawn in a kind of quasi religious way that didn't exist before in a think tank like Heritage. So that I think was one of the things she was touching on. The idea that you can't have differing views about the state of Israel and American support of Israel as an ally. That's not what this is about for some of these young staffers at Heritage who are not just anti Zionist, I think, but share in some of the beliefs of the Tucker Carlson's of the world.
- [13:02]
B
Yeah. So one young woman got up and seemed and didn't seem to said that she not only approved of Robert's initial statement, but sort of didn't see the reason why for any apology, she called Christian Zionism a heresy again with presumably many Christian Zionists, her colleagues standing right there in that room.
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C
Where's coming from then?
- [13:32]
B
Then just to explain the, the Shabbat thing then apparently the Heritage's anti Semitic, anti Semitism task force task force made a sort of goodwill gesture inviting any, any staffers who wanted to attend a Shabbat dinner. Someone named Evan Myers, who works there, an advisor to Robert's office got up and said, he said it was the, he thought of the invitation as a demand and a litmus test that if you didn't attend this Shabbat dinner you would be sort of crossed off the good side list. And he said for many Christians, Friday is a special day of prayer and abstinence to commemorate the death of Christ. I assume that no staff will be required to attend the Shabbat dinners, but my concern is that these dinners will serve as a sort of litmus test. He said, he said to attend would violate his Christian faith. There's a lot going on at this place.
- [14:39]
D
Well, and it's funny because they're first of all, as Victoria Coates then stood up and completely seriously clarified what that was. It was a suggestion among a list of suggestions that the task force made in the wake of Robert's first video to say if you want to keep this task force together. And indeed it is crumbling as we record this. Several people have resigned publicly. One of the major organizations that was affiliated with it has, is. Has left. So it basically was saying, look, we want to, we want to give you the benefit of the doubt. We want to acknowledge that your acknowledgment of your mistake. Here are some suggestions we would make about going forward if you really want to rebuild trust. And one of a long list of things was, look, if your staffers are not aware of sort of Jewish culture in general as this embrace of an anti Semitic, you know, platform, that platformer like Carlson and the hideous views of, of Fuentes would suggest, you know, we could encourage people to come to Shabbat dinner. First of all, I mean, I was, look, I was raised fundamentalist Protestant in the Southern Baptist tradition, so very different from Orthodox Christianity or Roman Catholicism. But the idea that someone would stand up and say, this is against my faith. You're trying to coerce me. There's a real defensiveness about his own faith that struck me. I don't think it's. This was a leaked video. He did not assume that this would become public. He's getting a lot of negative attention online, for which I don't think he deserves. But it is an expression of a group of young Catholics and their very rigorous ascetic faith and his unwillingness to embrace pluralism. And again, the sectarian way of seeing all this. It's like you're either with us or against us if we invite you to a Shabbat dinner, which he clearly misunderstood as being some sort of religious ritual. It's literally, it's literally like Catholics praying and crossing themselves before eating. You do a prayer and then everybody sits down and eats. It's, it's, it's not a religious, not a seder. It's distinct from that.
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B
So I've had, I've had priest friends over for Shabbat dinner.
- [16:39]
D
Exactly. You're supposed to welcome non Jews to Shabbat dinner. It's part of. It's, it's, it's a wonderful thing. And. But it was only ever a suggestion. It was very clearly a suggestion. So the fact that he went straight to a kind of nefarious. Well, you might say it's, you know, I think it'll be coercive. Again, there seems to be a lot of hostility and suspicion of the Jewish faith among people who work at Heritage.
- [17:00]
B
And also what this tells me is, you know, there's a lot of talk at Heritage and in other similar precincts about how. Well, the thing is, the reason. There's a tactical reason not to write Tucker off, because he has this huge audience that we need to steer toward better ideas, tear them away, peel them off from the Nick Fuentes train and get them on board with all sorts. All sorts of good, conservative thought. But after watching this meeting, it's clear that, as they say, the call is coming from within the House. You have clearly Fuentes listeners there. I'm not saying they're a majority, but as everywhere else, they spoke up. And so that's a huge problem. It's, you know, in general, it was a portrait of an institution that there's no faith in the leadership. People are leaking, people are angry at the leakers. The buck stops, but it doesn't stop. There's eight different versions of cleanup, and there was a lot of discussion of, how are we going to go forward? They're losing partnerships. What is the plan to rebuild trust, to rebuild their reputation. And someone stood up and said, well, that can't be a secret. We need to know what that plan is. Otherwise, I have no faith that there is a plan or that the plan will work. To which Roberts or one of the others who was sitting on stage alongside him said, well, I think it was Roberts. We have to keep that secret because of the leaks. So you will know in time. It was just a fascinating thing. And, you know, that he had to thank everyone. You know, that he had to thank Amy Swearer for saying that she wasn't sure he knew how to tell. Time was, I think, great. So I don't know. Where do you think. Where does this go next? I mean, what. He. I think he put out a tweet afterward in response to one of the. One of the Heritage staffers who stood up and said he should stay. Yeah, Michael. And he said. And he said, I've, you know, I've thought on your words, and I'm staying or something.
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D
I'm all in.
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B
Yeah, I'm all in, is what he said. Yeah. Yeah.
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C
Well, okay.
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B
So, you know, so, yeah, this is.
- [19:42]
C
I'm obviously, in some ways, I'm. I'm grateful that Kevin Roberts has backed away from his initial stance, because it's. It's better to have people. It's better that this is like a teaching moment where it's like, okay, if you're gonna go out, you're gonna defend this kind of garbage, then there's gonna be a real pushback. And it was enough to kind of get him off that square and he's, he's backing up and all, that's fine. But, you know, I don't know, like, if I was, if I was Kevin Roberts, his coach, I would be like, dude, you've just screwed up royally. Like, if you're going to choose, like, you know, if you're going to choose Team Hitler, so to speak, if you're going to go Team Fuentes, there's no, there's no halfway in, you know this. To quote the great Mobb Deep, another great Gen X reference, no such thing as halfway crooks. You can't, you know, you can't play footsie with this. And maybe that's the lesson, which is that, like, because you're, because of the way he's handled it, I'd say the people on our side of the right are like, I don't trust this Kevin Roberts guy. Where are his instincts? What was, what led him to do this? I don't believe this story about the chief of staff and he didn't vet it. What are you talking about? Like, how is, how did your instincts lead you to that a week ago? But then if you watch, you know that little goblin Fuentes, what does he, he's, he calls him, you know, a cuck and he's like, you, you back down to the Jews. And so you're not going to like win any points on the other side of this. And maybe that's the sort of takeaway, which is that if you think the future of the Republican Party and the conservative movement is white Christian nationalism, you gotta go all the way. There isn't gonna be a room for you to sort of say, oh, but we still have Project Esther. And that actually, I think is a useful distinction because contra, you know, some of the very online right, like, I don't think the future of American conservative. I don't think that the zoomer conservatives coming into the movement or the Republican Party are all like, you know, secret neo Nazis. I think probably a lot of them, you know, might have like kind of questions that would orient them towards a more realist, restrainer foreign policy that I think is real. But this is not what Tucker and Fuentes are kind of doing. Or Candace, they're all, they're like reviving. It's not just anti Semitism, they're reviving like a weird racialism. It's like they, they. This is right wing identity politics. And the incredible irony, which is hilarious, if we weren't in the middle of the moment right now, if we just like read about this in a novel is that like the leader of the white racists is a quarter Mexican with a Latin surname. And we've been seeing a lot of this, you know, like the head of the proud boys was a Latino.
- [23:01]
A
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- [25:52]
B
The Welfare Scholar at Hector at Hector Heritage. Robert Rector got up there and made sort of point points that he's, he's been at Heritage for like you know, almost half a century and was talking about how this moment is a revival of the pre Buckley John Bircher encroachment and how Buckley said there are boundaries on the right. One of them. One of them is absolutely no anti Semites and the other is no maniacs. And we are now opening the doors to anti Semites and maniacs. And I think you're right, Eli. And someone else got up at the meeting and said, look, we have to cut ties with Tucker as long as we're connected to Tucker. And when you say that he's your friend personally, but not a friend of the institution, people don't see it that way. People see it as the Heritage's connection. And the fact that Roberts, in every video and every attempt to apologize finds it so necessary to keep this my friend Tucker Carlson phrase in there tells me there's going to be more and more trouble down the line. This is not going away.
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D
So, so this, this is the point because. And to continue our Gen X music references, Kevin needs to swallow a jagged little pill right now. Stay on as a leader. Sorry, we're just going. We are going all in today. Our listeners should prepare themselves.
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C
It's like rain on your wedding day anyway.
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D
I know it's just like a fly in your chardonnay. So here's the problem. I so I've done lots of. There are some excellent scholars at Heritage, people I have known for decades who's work I admire. I'm on. I have been in the past on coalitions and working groups with those people. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not. If Kevin Roberts is the head of Heritage, I cannot be involved in those groups because it signals any sort of approval of this and the fact that, sorry, my dog is barking like a maniac.
- [28:09]
B
That's right.
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C
The challenge is he can't be part of the coalition.
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D
Well, and going forward he it's that it's the Tucker piece and Tucker knows this. And I just want to say that so does, so does Fuentes. As Fuentes said on his show earlier this week as this was all erupting, he says happily, we are thoroughly in the griper war, the civil war for the gop. So he knows exactly what he's doing. Tucker knows exactly what he's doing. People who are embracing Tucker as their friend, but also standing on stage with them at large events, also gaining a huge podcasting audience from those same people. They all know what they're doing. And it doesn't matter if they're just chasing a new audience, they chasing money or chasing fame. It's wrong to do that on the backs of Jews, on the backs of people who believe that we should not tolerate anti Semitism. And during the Buckley era, he did force those folks out, although it was not as clear cut as I think we like to remember.
- [29:05]
C
100% that's true.
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D
He flirted, was very clear with the lie.
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C
Robert Welch. He flirted with him for like the last. For a few years, until finally, I think at the behest of Goldwater, basically was like. And also Buckley, too. I mean, let's give Buckley credit, you know, but, you know, but Buckley, you know, like, just to draw a contrast. I love Buckley. I. In fact, there's a new bonus breaking History coming out today, which is all about how Buckley is like a lesson we should relearn about what to do with a problem, like Nick Fuentes. But, you know, unlike Irving Kristol, he defended McCarthy pretty much, you know, way past, you know, the time when, you know, by the time McCarthy was actually a maniac and totally crazy. But Buckley also, you know, he was somebody who was both a journalist and an activist. He was building a movement. And in that he understood early as a young man that you can't build a movement if you are going to have utter lunatics inside the tent that are discrediting to most Americans. And I still think that America is that kind of place that you can't have a national party that even has a faction that believes this. And it's not just about the Jews. It's like, look at what Tucker has done since leaving Fox. It's demonology. It's UFOs, it's who killed JFK. It's like all the conspiracy theories, that's his bread and butter kind of who he is. And he's not the Tucker that we all knew in the 90s and the aughts and the, you know, 20 teens.
- [30:49]
D
You know, it's funny, everybody likes to compare him to Father Coughlin, but he's actually more like Gerald LK Smith, who was the founder of the America first party, but was also, like, really into UFOs and mystical stuff and like, like, really went wacky while also maintaining a pretty Rigorous antisemitism, racism, and, you know, America first ism. And I think that's where so, so Buckley's efforts were at a time where the mainstreaming of these sorts of ideas took a generation to happen. And I think the reason it's important for us to crack down quickly now is that that's not how this happens now. The radicalization process, the mainstreaming process can happen in a week or two. It can happen with enough people stumbling across a dumb podcast by Fuentes and going, oh, he's so funny and entertaining, and I'll just, I'll just consume more of this. So that's where I think, that's why I think a lot of people on the conservative side of the aisle have been so outraged by, by the footsie playing as, as we've been describing that Kevin Roberts is doing. You can't really be half in or half out on this battle. You have to, you have to choose a side.
- [31:53]
B
So I think what we see here reminded me when I was watching the video a couple years ago, there were all these stories certainly happened at the New York Times and there were some other liberal nonprofits, the Atlantic, Washington Post, this revolt of the radical kids on staff and this generational culture, ideological war within these institutions. And we know that on the left, the executive class generally caved to the radicals, and we have Donald Trump back in office. So for some. Well, it seems that something different is happening on the right here. There's a real, there's a real. As I said, and you know, we've brought up on the podcast before, the right's immune system is kicking in. But Kevin Roberts is, is still not, is still sort of not part of that.
- [33:14]
D
Well, so I, because we have Eli here, and I can't resist, I do want to get his take on, on Mamdani, because once again, I get to deploy another favorite band of the Gen X era, and that is will the Shoplifters of the World Unite? But, but I will say, because I think that I bring up Mamdani in this context.
- [33:34]
B
I know that reference.
- [33:37]
D
Get thee to a Smith's album immediately.
- [33:39]
C
Unite and take over.
- [33:43]
D
I'm a bad Gen Xer, so. But, but, but there is there. And our friend Barton Swaim has an excellent column in the Wall Street Journal today, kind of mentioning talking about the heritage controversy. And I think the reason it's, it's useful to bring up Mamdani and what's happening with what's going on on the left is that this is more than just an internal issue. For Republicans, although it's a very serious one for anyone on the right side of the aisle. And it is a, it is a cultural problem in this country. And Mamdani represents another form of mainstreaming. And I'm curious, Eli, if you have any thoughts about how a couple of people have noted already how quickly he kind of changed from his amiable personality when he was running for office to the guy who's like, I am now in charge. And just the tone, the tone, I am the captain.
- [34:27]
C
Oh, I mean, I have so many thoughts. I mean, first thing to look for, I would say is he is, I'm almost positive what he's going to do is he's going to launder as a Jew organizations like Jewish Voices for Peace, if not now. I mean, I think even J Street is too, you know, pro Israel for him. But he's going to try to claim that Jewish Voices for Peace are representative of New York's Jewish community. And he's going to use, he's going to do this little magic show and he's going to make pretend that, oh, well, Jewish Voices for Peace, which by the way, were linked arm in arm with Students for Justice from Palestine and the Kuad at Columbia shutting down Grand Central station. They're 100% part of the radical pro Hamas faction. And he's going to say, these Jews support me and he's going to launder them, he's going to elevate them and he's going to, he's going to act as if they're kind of kosherizing him. I think that's the first thing. He went to an anti Zionist synagogue and said, oh, I have visited a synagogue. And that's, we're going to see more of that. And, you know, New York's Jewish community is going to have to resist this kind of information op and mind game. But I do think it is. I think I did my, my latest podcast on this, which we call the Beautiful Losers, because this does represent the greatest accomplishment for American socialism in its 124 kind of year history as a political party. And what I think you need to understand about Mamdani is that after October 7, 2023, a lot of the original Democratic Socialists of America members quit in disgust because the response from DSA to this horrific killing and rape and kidnapping spree was applause and cheering. They were absolutely. DSA was right there right after October 7th, in solidarity with the mass murderers and lots of people, including like the biographer of the founder of dsa, Maurice Isserman, the founder of Being Michael Harrington quit, wrote open letters saying, I can't be part of DSA anymore. They have conflated reactionary, theocratic violence with like, you know, resistance to colonial. I mean, like, it was the whole thing. I said, you are. No, you don't get to call yourself democratic socialist. It's a long standing problem, by the way, for the left, which is that there's always been a kind of what, you know, might call decent democratic left, democratic socialist tradition. People like Debs, Norman, Thomas, Harrington. But there's also this other tradition in America of like the Weathermen and the American Communist Party that don't believe in democracy, that want violent revolution, that are fine with kind of Bolshevik tactics to take over. Mamdani stays in DSA and participates in DSA anti Israel rallies. He wasn't at the ones like right after, but he was there like within like two weeks. He was part of it with a bullhorn. There's video of him, you should watch it, saying the reason he was drawn to DSA is because they supported the boycott, divestment and sanction of Israel. That's who he is. The DSA is a party that has been taken over by illiberal radicals. And that's why Mamdani joined the party, because he's an illiberal radical. But he's an incredibly talented, charismatic politician. So he was able to try to bend and you know, he was trying to win an election. So of course some of the things he tried to soften it, but he could never bring himself around to just saying, you know, condemning globalized, the intifada. And there's a reason for that, because it's not who he is.
- [38:23]
D
I will add to that there are two other little facts about, first of all, that we know. We know from the last year or so from various surveys that there's a real generation gap on both sides of the aisle, unfortunately, about whether political violence is ever justified. And it's the young who are far more likely to say, I mean, kind of an astonishingly high numbers say it's fine, sometimes political violence is justified. So there's that overlay. There's also another interesting thing that emerged from the election in New York, which is how many people voted for Mandani who have lived in the city for fewer than, like less than five years. I think it is. And Abe wrote a fantastic newsletter yesterday, kind of talking about his time in New York City and had the, the changes over time and, and I wonder if, if there. There are several things going on with the sort of coalition you describe Eli, that he's built where there's a radicalism and the radicals stayed when the thoughtful people left. Even the socialist organization, there's a. There's a propensity to glorify and accept political violence as necessary. And then there's the fact that they really aren't real New Yorkers yet. I mean, I lived in the city for, I don't know, almost a year, and I would. And I know people who've lived there for 10 years and are still like, I'm not really a New Yorker yet. I mean, it is that kind of place. Just that coalition, though, is bigger and it also includes a lot of people who are more educated. They're the ones who voted for Mamdani as well.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, I know. You know, Mamdani likes to say that he was elected by the bodega worker and this blue collar worker and someone's old auntie, as he says. And he. Cuomo took. Cuomo won all those factions. Mamdani took the college educated, clearly.
- [40:17]
C
So, yeah, downwardly mobile.
- [40:20]
B
Yeah.
- [40:21]
C
Barista socialists. Right. So his was like two hyphenated studies degrees from, you know, liberal arts college. Who.
- [40:30]
D
And this makes me sad. I'm a liberal arts person. I love the humanity. So, like, I'm like, what has happened to these students?
- [40:38]
B
Well, exactly what was supposed to happen? According to their professors, they were, they were fully indoctrinated radicalization. But yeah, his, his tone switch, I mean, kind of started before he was actually elected. I think once, once it became clear, it was, you know, he was, he was pretty feisty in those debates. And I think once it became clear, once, once he sort of felt himself as the shoo in. He started sort of feeling his oats. And you know, his, you know, his call on Donald Trump to turn up the volume as he himself, Madani spoke. I think we've seen the radical side, we've seen the anti Semitic side. We're gonna see this like, egomaniacal side. We are seeing it come out and that's quite a combo. We're in for a doozy of a ride.
- [41:42]
C
Well, you know, people often have commented, I think this is totally true that. I mean, I don't wanna speculate, but when Trump endorsed Cuomo at the end, that may have been really an endorsement of Mamdani because it's good for Trump to have the mom, Donnie, as a national figure, mayor of New York, because that contrast benefits Trump. And, you know, you are Will. I think that a lot of voters, and I'm being honest here, me Included, you're willing to forgive more of the norm violations from Trump. When you see a radical leftist in charge of New York and you're like, okay, well, if the choice is between DSA and maga, I'm choosing maga. But I think the reverse is also true, which is that if the choice is between, I mean, there are a lot of people who are like, I'll take DSA over maga because the extremes benefit each other in that respect.
- [42:32]
D
Well, and there is a real, there's a real danger for the, for the right to turn him into a celebrity foil. Because actually, a lot of the voters they're gonna need in the midterms and in the next presidential election are just moderate people who, again, they're worried about economic issues. They don't really care about socialism. And I mean, but. And so I think, I don't think that, that the MAGA folks are going to be able to resist the catnip of.
- [42:56]
C
No, they're not going to resist it at all. You should see this AI video that's circulating now on X, which is a version of the great Frank Sinatra song New York, New York. But it's like, that's why I'm going to leave New York. And it's just, it's like, it's, some of, it's tasteless kind of hilarious too, but like, it's just, it's like, you know, Elizabeth Warren dressed like Pocahontas, you know, tongue kissing Mamdani. And then it's like, you know, a bunch of, you know, the cops are being dog walked. It's like the whole thing like the city's in flames and like that that's coming and Trump's not going to be able to resist it. And there's going to be. And you're going to see, like, it's going to be like, you know, it's going to be New York versus, you know, D.C. trump versus Mamdani. And that is going to be a major thing. And we're gonna. And as our politics descends further and further into professional wrestling.
- [43:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, look, we've watched as the left and the liberals have overplayed their hand in attacking Trump over all these years. So, you know, once again, the same temptations are there for both sides. I'm certain that they will be indulged in on the right. I have to say, when I saw Trump talking to Bret Baier last night about the election and Bret Baier asked Donald Trump about Mamdani, Trump said what he always says. We skipped over socialism. We went right to communism and he called him a communist. But Bret Baier said, are you going to reach out to him? And Trump sort of thought for a second, very calm. It wasn't sort of explosive. Trump was, he said, well, I think he can reach out to me. Which I thought first of all is true. He is the president and actually seemed a lot less aggressive than I would have thought. So, you know, again, he's unpredictable. He's not always where his base is. Exactly. You know, and this, this also relates to the earlier discussion about heritage. How is the right going to fight this anti Semitism on the left while they're having, you know, with their own crazed neo Nazis trying to make a bid for the movement on the right? That, that, that, that's not going to go well.
- [45:36]
D
Well, infighting on the right only helps political adversaries on the left because it, and it does kind of allow also folks on the left to downplay the seriousness of their own antisemitism problem. It's like, well, at least we don't have the presidents of the center for American Progress that endorsing gripers, you know, I mean, and they're right, they don't. It's a lot more subtle there. But to your point about how Trump is not always with his base, I mean, not to get bogged down in Supreme Court decisions, but yesterday's case about the tariffs that was argued in front of the court struck me as being yet another example, particularly because it deals with economic, downstream economic effects. The Trump administration was just sued by a consortium of small businesses who used to represent the interests of small businessmen in this country. It wasn't the Democratic Party, it was the Republican Party and Sauer the SG arguing the case on behalf of the Trump administration got a lot of skepticism from all of the justices, regardless of their sort of philosophy and about the economic impact and certainly about the declaration of emergencies. And yeah, a lot of the analysis was like Joe Biden overreaching and trying to transfer all of student loan debt to down downstream to non college educated people. So this is another example where he's not a conservative and he's not a free marketer. And that case is going to be really interesting, not just for the use of presidential power, but for how in the midterms the Democrats are going to be able to say he's the reason you're paying higher prices for everything. He's the reason your Christmas presents and your Hanukkah presents and all of your groceries cost a lot more this season. And they'll be right.
- [47:16]
A
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- [50:13]
B
Yeah, and I mean look among the messages, the chief message that Mamdani was trying to get out there, in addition to his hatred of Israel and socialism and the rest of it. Affordability. Affordability, yeah.
- [50:33]
D
And where's Scott Bessant with his. Wasn't he supposed to give us some, you know, housing programs? Some, some great way to bring down the cost of housing. I mean they, they have neglected economic issues in this administration to at their peril. And I think that hopefully this recent election will remind them that that's actually what they're going to have to focus on to win next year.
- [50:53]
C
Yeah, I mean he has been on a generational foreign policy run.
- [50:56]
D
Yeah, absolutely.
- [50:58]
C
Credit to Trump. His instincts are 100% correct. Not just in the Middle East. Like, I just feel like that is a, that's something that I focus on a lot and he's been really good on that. But you're right, the economy has been neglected. The prices keep going up. I think that was what mainly probably explains this election because you don't have socialists winning everywhere and moderates losing everywhere. For the Democrats, you have like, you know, for every Mom, Donnie, there is a spam burger. So that's. And that, you know, I know that John made this point yesterday on the podcast, but like that's probably good that at least the moderates in the Democratic Party because I want the Democrats to not be a lunatic socialist party. They have a, an argument, they have a path themselves and you know, like New Yorkers are going to find out like, all right, do you like this kind of thing? I mean, I suppose, by the way, because Mamdani is so young and you know, when I was 34, I mean there were things I believed at 34 that I don't believe now today, you know, nearly 20 years later. So there's a possibility that he's going to be the mayor. His ego is going to drive him to want to be a successful mayor and that, you know, there will be a break with the Democrat, the dsa. That's a possibility.
- [52:25]
D
I don't necessarily saying he's going to fight the power. Eli. I'm sorry, I can't. Yeah.
- [52:33]
C
It takes a nation of Mamdani's to hold us back though. No, but like there is a possibility that the current leadership of the Democratic Socialist of America and particularly their New York chapter is so bananas at this point that they will not be able to take the win. They won't be able to take like yes on 70% of their agenda. And they'll just freak out because you know, he hasn't defunded the police yet or not enough so that. And then, you know, you could see him, you know, you know, kind of become unshackled from this party. That I do think is a bit of wishcasting. Because as I said before, I do think Mamdani himself is a radical. So.
- [53:15]
B
Well, even I think, even if we see anything like that, it would be purely tactical on his part anyway. It's not. I don't think we're. I don't think we're. I don't expect a change of heart from him on these issues.
- [53:25]
C
No, but what I'm saying is that like if, you know the old expression, what was it like Republicans get in line and Democrats, whatever, But like the DSA, they're gonna flip out even if he does 96% of what they want. That's just who they are. Okay, they're angry little tantrum throwing radicals.
- [53:49]
B
But that's the dsa. There's a larger sort of circle beyond them who aren't necessarily DSA but who are generally on board with anything that smacks of radical anti institutionalism. And they will cheer him no matter what and they will accept every one of his attempts to push something radical, whether or not it's. It satisfies the dsa. And you know, the thing is he can become a left wing superstar while doing a. While being a terrible mayor. You know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not. One is. One is not connected to the other. And that's hard.
- [54:37]
C
It's harder to do it as the mayor than it is as a member of Congress.
- [54:41]
D
Right, right.
- [54:42]
C
If you're not a successful member of Congress, then you just don't get any legislation passed. And you're not like a powerful committee chairman or something like that. If you're not a successful mayor, the city stinks and people are mad about.
- [54:52]
D
It and well, and people and capital, more importantly, leave the city saying we're not going to take it. Come on guys, you're not keeping up here. We're not going to take it.
- [55:02]
C
I do have a sort of a side note about the Mom Donnie campaign. I don't know if you noticed, but Wallace Shawn and Mandy Patankin, two of my favorite actors and were in one of my favorite movies, the Princess Bride, are apparently anti Zionist socialists who loved Mamdani. And I'm just like, is that whole disappointing?
- [55:25]
B
Oh yeah. But that was known About Wallace, Sean. That was known about a long time. I'm sure. I was probably known about Manny Patinkin, too, for a long time.
- [55:32]
D
Can we ask, I have a question about the government shutdown, which we've sort of talked about here and there in snippets on the podcast over the last few weeks, but never done a deep dive. I, I have a theory that they're not just the election results, but the fact that the transportation secretary just announced that they're going to start shutting down airspace because TSA agents at airports are just walking off the job. They're not getting paid, so why wouldn't they? But the idea that we'll shut down airspace at a lot of major hubs will have a ripple effect immediately. Those of us who have to fly regularly for work or, you know, we know this is, I think that's going to be enough for them to come to some sort of deal. But Trump so far has not really. Again, he's not getting in the scrum there and having the kind of leadership role that previous presidents during shutdowns have, have engaged in. So I'm just. Do you think that'll be the final straw and that this will get.
- [56:24]
B
I think that in combination with the fact that we're now after the election, which, which was something that the Democrats were waiting on, I think will make things move. I don't know how and where exactly. And I agree, you know, that, that, that, that Trump is sort of adopting an odd posture here. But Mike Johnson's not, I mean, you know, so, so, yeah, I think Thune's.
- [56:49]
D
Doing a great job, too. Yeah.
- [56:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But I think this, this, it was, it was almost, I mean, it wasn't for a lot of people, but, but to a great deal, the shutdown was like background noise until the flight stopped. Now, now, now it becomes this, this, this real impact.
- [57:07]
C
Yeah. I mean, we could live without the tsa. It's the air traffic controllers.
- [57:13]
D
It's the truck. Yeah.
- [57:14]
B
Yeah.
- [57:14]
D
I did have, I don't know if I'm completely.
- [57:17]
B
Well, go ahead then. I want to add one.
- [57:20]
D
I'm completely springing this on Eli. I have no idea if he followed this story, but I, I saw it and then I set it aside and meant to ask you, so I'll ask you now. Tom Cotton. Absolutely. Grilling Elbridge Colby recently about what's going on, policymaking in a hearing.
- [57:36]
C
I got a, I got to.
- [57:38]
D
Okay. Because this story, it just kind of popped up, but then it sort of sunk again. But for me, it was this an example of some really healthy pushback from conservatives who care about national security and care about foreign policy and are really concerned about the fact that the White House and the State Department and the Pentagon are not always on the same page about what that looks like. Like. And I don't know, I just, I mean, I keep my eye on what Colby's doing because I worry that his judgment might not be as conservative as some of us would like with foreign policy. So I just throw that out there as another story that I didn't see a lot of follow up on. But that struck me as. And I like Tom Cotton, obviously, and.
- [58:14]
B
I love how he checked that out, too.
- [58:16]
D
So I just.
- [58:18]
C
We love Tom Cotton.
- [58:19]
B
What I wanted to, what I wanted to say, and this is a bit of silliness before we go, because the, The. The flight.
- [58:25]
D
Better. We've been a Gen X cultural reference in that case.
- [58:27]
B
Abe, I'm bad with this because we were talking about the flight cancellations. I don't really understand the Nancy May story.
- [58:40]
D
I think, you know, this makes me sad. I think this is a story of Nancy.
- [58:45]
B
Just say that she was. What airport was she at?
- [58:49]
D
Was she in Charlotte or.
- [58:50]
B
Yeah, I think so. That's right. Yeah.
- [58:51]
D
I think it was the Charlotte airport. She had a kind of meltdown.
- [58:54]
B
Yeah. Supposedly at the airport. Yeah. And. And. And was.
- [58:58]
D
Now she's suing.
- [59:00]
B
Report was written up and now she's suing, claiming that. That it was all made up and she was defamed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:08]
D
She, she's, you know, she, she was considering a run for governor and she's an interesting character in a lot of ways. But, yeah, I feel like this is someone who might be having some sort of personal crisis, and when she pops up into. Into the news, it not indicative of someone who's focused on their job as a legislator, unfortunately.
- [59:30]
B
So, yeah, I think that's fair in some ways. I thought it was kind of like, like the perfect story because we've had all these stories about people acting crazy during air travel, and then we have all these stories about lawmakers acting crazy, and then we have this. They've. They've come together. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:49]
C
Well, we should see what Winter recommends.
- [59:50]
D
Of some Gen X Smells Like Teen Spirit.
- [59:53]
B
By all means.
- [59:55]
C
Counting Crows Record or. Oh, man, I don't know, like the Ready to Die, Notorious BIG I mean, there's so many. Listen, go back to the 90s.
- [60:06]
B
I don't endorse these recommendations.
- [60:08]
C
Oh, that's right. You hate rap music. You hate rap. Music. Okay, hold on. I've got a good one.
- [60:12]
D
Okay, here's a good question. What is the best classic Gen X movie? Can we at least come to some general agreement?
- [60:18]
C
Okay.
- [60:19]
D
I mean, I love like the Breakfast Club genre. That whole sort of disaffected.
- [60:24]
C
I'm gonna say it's Pump up the volume with Christian Slater because. Let me explain why. Because that movie, I think, invented podcasting. What was his pirate radio show if not first podcast?
- [60:39]
D
I had such a Christian Slater crush too.
- [60:41]
C
Yes, it was a good movie. I thought it was. I really liked it. Or Heather's is another good movie.
- [60:48]
B
That's a good one, actually.
- [60:49]
D
We can all agree on Heather's.
- [60:51]
C
Yeah, we can definitely all agree on Heather's.
- [60:52]
B
There was. There was some other. Yeah, in 1979, there was another movie about a. A pirate radio station on the air live with Captain Midnight where a teenager has a mobile broadcast transmitter in his van. So I will credit that with. With inventing podcasting, but I like that.
- [61:16]
D
That means you all have to fight for the label of becoming Captain Midnight. This is your.
- [61:22]
B
But I like pump volume.
- [61:24]
C
Watch Heathers. Our younger listeners. Watch Heather's. It is dark Trigger warning.
- [61:31]
D
There's cigarette smoking.
- [61:32]
C
There's cigarette smoking. Great Winona Ryder.
- [61:35]
D
She's performance.
- [61:37]
C
She's fantastic in it. And I still think it captures a lot about. I don't know if that's still. I'm not. You know, I'm not a teenager anymore. But like, I thought that it really did better than even the Breakfast Club captures are the dynamics of high school.
- [61:51]
D
It was darker than the Breakfast Club, so I think.
- [61:54]
B
Oh, way darker. Way darker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the Breakfast Club, though, I think is among the better of those movies. I think I've said this before and I have to say it again if we're talking about that era. If you rewatch St. Elmo's Fire today, it is the worst major movie ever made.
- [62:17]
C
The aspiring writer, the journalist.
- [62:20]
B
Who has the best part yet?
- [62:22]
C
I don't big break in the Washington Post is an essay in like the Outlook section called what is the meaning of Life? Like, literally, like, that's what it was.
- [62:32]
B
I know. It's incredible. It's incredible. I could talk about them. We have a dis.
- [62:36]
D
Recommendation.
- [62:36]
B
Which recommendation? Yeah, although. Or recommend it because I. I get a kick out of watching bad things if they're bad in interesting ways. And I think that's bad in an interesting way. Anyway, we're getting. We're getting punchy, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna call it. So for Christine, Eli, and the absent John, this is Abe. Keep the candle burning.