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- [00:04]
Abe Greenwald
Hope for the best, expect the worst.
- [00:11]
Matt Continetti
Some preacher pain, some diapers, no way of knowing which way it's going. Hope for the best, expect the worst, hope for the best. Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Tuesday, December 3rd. John Pod Horiz, the editor of Commentary, is still under the weather. We are still here. Hunter Biden is still pardoned. Joe Biden is still in Angola. And the we I speak of are, of course, Washington Commentary columnist and director of domestic policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, Matt Continetti. Hi, Matt.
- [00:58]
Abe Greenwald
Hi, Abe.
- [00:59]
Matt Continetti
And media commentary columnist and senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.
- [01:08]
Christine Rosen
Hi, Abe.
- [01:09]
Matt Continetti
And Commentary senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
- [01:13]
Seth Mandel
Hi, Abe.
- [01:14]
Matt Continetti
So we were just talking before the show started and there's definitely a day two to the Hunter pardon story here. The reaction, the pylon, the hand wringing, the distancing among Democrats, the lamenting on the part of major media about what this opens the door to in terms of Donald Trump being able to pardon whomever he likes whenever he likes, on whatever grounds, for whatever. Right. What do you guys think?
- [01:53]
Abe Greenwald
Well, you know, that the media doesn't like the decision because they liking it to something that Trump would do whenever Biden does something bad in the media's eyes, they said, well, this is something that Trump would do. Or as the New York Times puts it in the headline today, Biden in his pardon statement sounds like his rival, which is the worst thing you could ever be by the New York Times Standard, I would say one notable fact is that we haven't heard from Biden since he issued the pardon. He has been in Angola, as you say. He's supposed to return to the country this evening at some point. He hasn't said a word about his not surprising, but still kind of shocking action that he took on Sunday. Leaving the answers to White House press secretary Karine Jean Pierre. And I have to say I'm not in the business of reading the daily White House transcript of the press conference, but I did take the time to read yesterday's and it was pretty amusing. The first thing was that Jean Pierre came on stage with her, her Comfort press secretary, Admiral Kirby and immediately said, well, Admiral Kirby is here to talk about the trip to Angola. So we're not going to answer any questions about what you want to talk about until after he's through talking about Angola. So then they the first half of the press conference is sped on Angola, which I'm sure is top of mind for the entire country about what's happening there and why Biden was visiting and then you got to the pardon. And the exchanges are pretty hilarious because she couldn't answer a single question. She kept saying, these are his words. This is what he said, which I think is Jean Pierre speak for throwing the president under the bus, having been put in this position where she is on record multiple times saying that, no, no, there's no way he's ever going to pardon Hunter. And now forced to be the only person in the administration answering questions directly about this move. She spent all of her time repeating what he said in the statement and simply saying, these are his words, this is what he said. The overall effect of the press conference, though, was to simply keep the story going. And we're now in its second day and I don't think Democrats have settled on a line they're going to take to defend this action, probably because there isn't one. Yeah.
- [04:35]
Matt Continetti
And.
- [04:35]
Christine Rosen
Oh, go ahead.
- [04:36]
Matt Continetti
Oh, go ahead, Christine.
- [04:37]
Christine Rosen
I was just going to say that the press response to add on to the administration flail, and I love that, that seeing her as saying, basically use your words, Joe Biden. He did. And wow, now she has to explain them. I've been struck by how much the both the omission sins of omission and revisionist history of the mainstream media over the past four years, actually I would say 12 years with Joe Biden has finally caught up to them and that the reason they don't have a response to this pardon is that to do so would be require them to go back and look at all the stories that they buried, they never reported out that they massaged to make Joe Biden look like a really affable family man who cares only about his kids and who wants to be is a new progressive president who didn't pass the 1990, was it 94 tough on crime bill, which was his only major piece of legislation his entire career, and who didn't put away tons of largely poor, largely African American men for crimes that were far less severe than the ones his own son committed and then turns around and, you know, gives a blanket pardon to his own son for his sins and who hadn't for years and years told us he would never do that. The point that really sticks in my craw about a lot of the rhetoric coming out of the Biden administration about this pardon is that it fails to recognize that the whole purpose, the whole messaging of his early campaign, when he was running for reelection against Trump the first time and then before he dropped out the second time, was to say, I stand for the rule of law, and he doesn't. And the proof that I stand for the rule of law is that I'm allowing my own Justice Department to prosecute my own son. And as we now know, and as some outlets like NBC News are now reporting, he had long been keeping the option of a pardon on the table and decided for political purposes to tell the world, I would never do that. It suited his reelection and his sense of himself, and that's just bad. And if the press had done their job about the Hunter Biden laptop, if the press had done their job about Joe Biden's character and record, if the press had done their job, they wouldn't be in this very painful contortionist moment where they're all bending over backwards, sort of trying to scold him, but not too much and really trying to wrap their heads around the mess that they are part of creating.
- [06:53]
Matt Continetti
Well, I thought.
- [06:55]
Seth Mandel
I thought they had. Sorry, they had. They had one really interesting exchange with Korean Jean Pierre where somebody asked her, would this have happened if Biden were still in the game, basically? And she said, no. And then he sort of asked again. She said no. And he said, you're telling me this wouldn't have happened if Biden were, you know, about to enter a second term or whatever? And she said, oh, I can't speak to hypotheticals. And that, to me was like, I think that's to your point, Christine, which was like, you know, Biden was like, fine, if you're going to, you know, you're going to push me out the window, I've got this pardon in my pocket sort of thing. You know, the party itself is kind of at each other's throats over this a bit. Although every. The majority of Democratic opinion is lined up against Biden on this. This is a sign of, you know, well, if you're going to do whatever you feel is necessary to do to me to take care of yourself, I'm going to do whatever I feel is necessary, you know, to take care of myself. And so the fallout from switching Biden out, which, again, was the right thing to do, he would not have won. We all, I think, agree. But switching Biden out for someone who then lost, this is still part of the sort of tailspin I think the Democrats are in.
- [08:22]
Matt Continetti
Yeah, the statement I can't respond to hypotheticals is pretty much what Kamala Harris would say to any question about what she would do as president. But there was also an interesting exchange with Karine Jean Pierre where someone was pushing her on. Well, so does Biden think that the Justice Department is how deep does the rot go? Was the question. And she had to she was charged with having to say, no, no, no, he believes in the justice system. He believes in the Justice Department, but then why do this? And there was just no way to square the circle.
- [09:04]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah. Let me just read one exchange that I liked. Here's Jean Pierre. So look, as you know, when it comes to the criminal justice system and really making sure we get to a place where it's equal and fair, this is a president who has taken this very seriously. And you know that by executive actions that he took very early on in his administration, and he understands what certain communities go through. He has been very clear about that. He has talked about that as it relates to pardoning or any clemency. The president, as you know, at the end of the year makes announcements. He's thinking through that process very thoroughly. There's a process in place, obviously. And so once I'm not going to get ahead of the president on this, but you could expect more announcements, more pardons and clemency at the end of the end of this term. Okay. Question but Kareem Ms. Jean Pierre. Yeah. Question why was it the case that both you and the president said, well after the plea deal fell apart that there wouldn't be a pardon and now there is a pardon. Ms. Jean Pierre, again, I'd refer you to his statement. He thought about this this weekend. This is a decision that he made this weekend. He agonized over it. Question Were there any new details that Ms. Jean Pierre, I mean, what I can tell you is that the president said himself he made this decision this weekend. And again, encourage I encourage you to read the statement and really just the first paragraph. And what he's watched his son go through an unfair process, being singled out. And then finally she said it a few more sentences and reads. And so he wrestled it with this he wrestled with it this weekend and he made a decision this weekend on how to move forward with this. And so I'll leave it there. You could it's like the answers are kind of you're pulling teeth to get to get her to say that these talking points that she clearly is uncomfortable with.
- [10:51]
Seth Mandel
And what do you want from me? Right. That's what comes out next.
- [10:54]
Abe Greenwald
She's been doing it for four years.
- [10:56]
Christine Rosen
Because NBC News reported from someone inside the White House that he's had this on the table since June. Like he's been considering the pardon for months.
- [11:03]
Abe Greenwald
She denied now she's denying that right now. They're denying this. And the overall logic of the pardon, according to Jean Pierre, doesn't actually say anything good about anyone because what it boils down to is her defense is that, well, President Biden realized that the Republicans in Congress, we're never going to let this go. And so he decided to preemptively pardon his son for all crimes he may have, may have, did or may have committed during a decade long period. Well, that just raises the question, why wouldn't the Republicans let it go? And the reason they wouldn't let it go is unlike what the media has been telling us for years, there's something there, something, something wrong was happening there. Millions and millions of dollars are flowing to this family. No one still can account for all of it. And so it would be, it would be understandable if people would continue to investigate the Biden family business. And that is why he issues his pardon. And that's probably why he's going to end up pardoning his brother down the road as well.
- [12:14]
Christine Rosen
Well, both he and Hunter were basically acting as unregistered foreign agents. And we know from during Trump's first term, many people working for Trump were prosecuted by the just acting as unregistered foreign agents taking in money from foreign countries. And the money laundering, to me, is why he issued the blanket pardon. If, if Biden, if Hunter and Jim. Jim, right. Hunter and Jim Biden were both raking in money from, you know, setting up meetings and trading on first Vice President, then President Biden's influence. There's a paper trail, there's a money trail, and that's what House Republicans have been sort of doggedly trying to uncover. And that's what would really, I think, for the American people. And it's why, by the way, we're hearing a lot of, oh, I'm worried it would trigger, he's been sober. If he has to get sentenced and go to prison, it'll re. Trigger his addictions. This would be so bad for the whole family. I'm like, yeah, you know what? Addicts get sent to prison all the time and it's really bad for them, too. Why is Hunter special? But I do think that's why we're seeing the family man, former addict, you know, sort of soft sell on this pardon. In fact, it's a corrupt, dirty business.
- [13:17]
Abe Greenwald
It's the same old story with this guy. Don't criticize me because of my tales of woe. Right? Whether, I mean, you know, and look, Biden has suffered terrible tragedy in his life, but that's what it always comes back to whenever he is under criticism is, don't talk to me about this or that because look at how I've suffered. Whether it's Beau. Now it's. Now it's Hunter. Don't question what I'm doing with Hunter because you could cause him to relapse. You could cause them to relapse. Well, here's my suggestion. As Tom Cotton has been pointing out, when you are pardoned by the president, you have to testify. You cannot use your Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. And so I think Hunter should be called to testify. And yes, as I just said, there are plenty of questions to be asked about the Biden family business. But I have one more question, and that is, where did that cocaine come from in the White House? Mr. Hunter Biden, you were under oath. You have to pardon your pardoned from possession because it's covered under the pardon.
- [14:25]
Matt Continetti
Right.
- [14:26]
Abe Greenwald
So answer that question.
- [14:28]
Seth Mandel
That's right. He can't. Somebody mentioned that the other day. Right. He can't plead the Fifth. No, if he's called to testify, he can't plead the Fifth anymore because of how blanket the pardon is. One thing you know about how bad this was for Democrats is the late night. They got the late night headlines, you know, like, Jimmy Kimmel concedes. Biden promised not to pardon Hunter. But quote, there's a very good chance he doesn't remember. So, you know, Jimmy Kimmel's making fun of her, fun of him. Jon Stewart, rule of law is all that separates us from the entire cast, from the entire cast of Madagascar. I don't know the context of why Jon Stewart is talking about a cartoon movie about zoo escapees. But you know, again, this is, this is, this is assigned Jon Stewart, Jimmy Kimmel, the late night guys, they gave the late night treatment to Biden over this. And that's how you can tell that there really isn't. Look, if there was any defense possible, any defense, Jimmy Kimmel would have it in front of him.
- [15:26]
Matt Continetti
I think sort of Dana Carvey opened that door a few weeks ago. Right on making it okay to make fun of Biden. But I think the general sense among liberals, certainly Democrats, is what did we get into with this guy here? You know, it's like, and as Matt says, the constant with Joe Biden is, hey, butt out of my business. You don't know what I've been through. You don't know how hard things have been on me. That is matched with his other contention, which is firm, resolute. No, no, don't Don't. I won't. Are you going to pardon? You know, have you thought about it? No. Take my word as a Biden.
- [16:17]
Abe Greenwald
Don't.
- [16:18]
Matt Continetti
And here we have. Here we have violating his word as a Biden. What's that?
- [16:23]
Abe Greenwald
What my message to Iran is. Don't.
- [16:25]
Matt Continetti
Right.
- [16:25]
Abe Greenwald
No.
- [16:26]
Christine Rosen
The through line of his entire.
- [16:27]
Matt Continetti
No one listens.
- [16:29]
Christine Rosen
He's a liar. He is a liar through and through and always has been. I'm sorry, like.
- [16:35]
Abe Greenwald
So I have one more item from the press briefing that I wanted to address because as I mentioned on the podcast yesterday, sure, everyone's upset at the Hunter Biden pardon, but what has really outraged me was Biden walking out of that bookstore in Nantucket carrying Rashid Khalidi, the terrorist sympathizer's book. And they are asked about this. In fact, Admiral Kirby was asked about it. And I have to say, I generally like Admiral Kirby, but I did not like his answer here. So here's the question. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the president was seen exiting a book shop with the copy of a book by a Columbia historian. That's a very generous label for him, Rashid Khalidi, who has referred to the Palestinian conflict essentially as being an ethnic cleansing operation. Why did the president choose to read that book at this point in his presidency? Mr. Kirby, look, when you say something like that, it reminds me of what Mark Train said. Mark Twain said that the man who refuses to read good books has no advantage over a man who cannot or won't read those books. I'm sorry, please. I think that begs the question that this is a good book. I mean, it's a piece of trash. It's politicized scholarship, and he's walking out. It's defamatory against Israel and the Jewish people. And the President of the United States is walking outside of a make a store, making sure that he is photographed in it. And yet Kirby's here giving us this stupid Mark Twain coat. Kirby continues. I can't speak to why the president made that particular purchase. Wasn't with him. Okay, all right. He continues, haven't had a chance to ask him. But he reads. Haven't had a chance to ask him. Which is interesting in itself. Yeah, but he reads broadly. Sure. And he's fascinated by history and the lessons of history and where that can take us going forward. So it doesn't surprise me that he would go into a bookstore and get a book of history, particularly about the Middle east, to try to imbibe and to try to keep learning. You know, that book is not learning. It's a brain suck. And actually this is a good moment to talk about. The word of the year, according to the Oxford English Dictionary is brain rot. And let me tell you, Mr. President, you read that book by Khalidi, which I'm sure you haven't even opened because you haven't been awake for that long and you've had this grueling trip to Angola, but if you open it up, you're going to suffer from brain rot. And I'm telling you, in your condition, you don't need any more.
- [19:07]
Matt Continetti
You know, yesterday we spoke about how maybe like, you know, one of his woke grandkids shoved it in his hand.
- [19:14]
Abe Greenwald
For the notch of his arm.
- [19:16]
Matt Continetti
Yeah, yeah. Take this. Yeah. So someone else draped him with the kefir.
- [19:20]
Abe Greenwald
He's an anti Semitic mule, that's what he is, a mule for. Anti Semitism.
- [19:25]
Matt Continetti
Right.
- [19:25]
Seth Mandel
They took the carried off, they took the COVID off their own copy of that book and put that cover on whatever Joe Biden was actually reading. I think it's like, I think it's like an Archie comic book and somebody put Rashid Khalidi's book book jacket over it.
- [19:40]
Matt Continetti
But, but, but it is a real question why he would have that at this time. And do you think, I mean, it would be so stupid to think, do you think that there's some sense on his part or his team's part that his being photographed with that broadcasts some sort of message to the administration's interlocutors over ceasefire and hostages and this is some sort of, you know, wink.
- [20:13]
Abe Greenwald
It makes no sense. I mean, unless. I mean, unless he has no idea who Khalidi is, which is, by the way, a possibility. Or he's. He dimly recalls Khalidi's name from some conversation with his old boss, Barack Obama, where Obama was saying, hey, you know, who's really smart on the Middle East? And so, you know, as he daggers through the bookshop, he sees that the name is. Oh, I remember this name. And that's why he takes it. I mean, explain it.
- [20:41]
Matt Continetti
If he doesn't know who Khalidi is, he's really more far gone than we have even considered because there was such a. During Obama's first run for president, there was such a to do over this speech that Obama gave at some sort of fetting of Khalidi and it was videotaped and.
- [21:06]
Abe Greenwald
Right. They're friends. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:08]
Matt Continetti
And, and the speech was locked in a vault, I think, in the LA Times for. For all eternity, because its contents are apparently horrific in terms of Obama's attitude toward his.
- [21:22]
Seth Mandel
And it's still locked in that vault.
- [21:23]
Matt Continetti
Yeah.
- [21:24]
Seth Mandel
Well, so years after he left the president, you know, years after it could cost the Democrats anything.
- [21:28]
Abe Greenwald
It makes it even stranger because, you know, unlike what Kirby says, is this president really associated with reading all that much? I mean, I can't really, you know, he likes his court historians, the John Meachams and the Michael Beschlosses and the Doris Kearns Goodwins who come in and tell him, oh, you're the second coming of fdr. And maybe he read some of their books, you know, 30 years ago when they were published, the notable ones. But until this moment, I've never really associated him with a particular book. It's unlike George W. Bush, of course. Right. Who made got into a famous contest or famous for me contest with Karl Rove, his chief advisor, about who could read more books.
- [22:14]
Matt Continetti
Right.
- [22:14]
Abe Greenwald
And of course, Obama, an intellectual monk, wants to be a reader and is always still, as Seth pointed out, giving us his yearly book lists. But Biden, again, it's kind of like Trump and, you know, no one really expects him.
- [22:30]
Matt Continetti
But Biden's like the Corvette and ice cream guy.
- [22:33]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, he's a simple man.
- [22:36]
Christine Rosen
It's a perfect encapsulation of Biden's presidency, though, that he did this performative book clutch at the end on a vacation weekend when he knew he'd be photographed. And then the icing on the cake was that Khalidi then asked for response was like, well, too little too late. Like, he should have read it earlier. Like, totally ungrateful for the spike in sales that this probably.
- [22:54]
Seth Mandel
I love, I love the Kremlinology itself. Like, he's like, he's like, he's like, this is a hostage video of the president. Like, he's the president. If he's got something to say, he can just walk up to a microphone and say, Kareem Jean Pierre would really like him to. In fact, she would be really gratified if he would walk up to a microphone and say something instead of making her. But instead we're like, what is he trying to tell us? What is this old confused man holding a book? Is he, is this, is there some sort of elder abuse going on? Is it a cry for help? Like, that's where we're at with what, two months left, a month and a half left in this particular presidency.
- [23:36]
Abe Greenwald
What I think we can say is that if it was a message to someone, it was probably a message to Benjamin Netanyahu, who we know Biden has just grown extremely uncomfortable with, doesn't like Bibi I think the feeling is mutual. And yet at the same time, he, he comes out with this book after they've signed this peace agreement, the ceasefire agreement in the north, where you would think that he shows some gratitude toward Netanyahu for cooperating in this process and agreeing to the United States terms. But of course, that's not the type of President Biden is.
- [24:12]
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- [26:32]
Abe Greenwald
He comes out with the book. And I think it's a studied contrast. And so we can move on to our next story, because the other night at Mar A Lago, it was not Rashid Khalidi who was dining with President Trump. It was Sarah Netanyahu and one of the Netanyahu children, Yair Netanyahu, who lives in South Florida. And perhaps coincidentally, Perhaps not within 24 hours of that dinner. And then, of course, the news that an American hostage, Omar Neutra, had. Was he, was he also American?
- [27:14]
Seth Mandel
Yes, Long Island.
- [27:16]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, he was. Long island. Right. He was killed during October 7 and his body has been held by Hamas. And then the video, as we mentioned yesterday on the broadcast from Idan Alexander, another living hostage, Trump released his statement on the hostages. And let me just.
- [27:39]
Matt Continetti
I actually, I have it right.
- [27:40]
Abe Greenwald
There you go. Read it.
- [27:42]
Matt Continetti
This was his, his truth released yesterday, 1:50pm Everybody is talking about the hostages who are being held so violently, inhumanely, and against the will of the entire world in the Middle East. But it's all talk and no action. Please let this truth capital serve to represent that if the hostages are not released prior to January 20, 2025, the date that I proudly assume office as president of the United States, there will be all caps, all hell to pay in the Middle East. And for those in charge who perpetrated these atrocities against humanity, those responsible will be hit harder than anybody has been hit in the long and storied history of the United States of America. Release the hostages now. All caps. It's incredible.
- [28:36]
Abe Greenwald
What more can you say? Yeah, that is not a statement from Biden.
- [28:41]
Seth Mandel
And I think he knows that he has some credibility on this also, because he was president, he had one term already, and in his first term, he did sanction the International Criminal Court. During his term, we're talking about that again. The ICC releases arrest warrants for Bibi Netanyahu and the former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. And people like Lindsey Graham and others are talking about sanctioning the icc. Trump did that in his first term. So a threat to do that sort of thing with Trump coming into office actually is a real threat. You know, Trump pulled out of the Iran deal in his first term. He said he would, and he went ahead and did it. He said he would move the embassy, and he actually went ahead and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem. You know, he. He wary of foreign entanglements as he is. He still took shots directly at Iran, most notably taking out Qasem Soleimani. And so I think that there is something, you know, when he says like he'll, he'll do it. When he says he'll do something, obviously he's not always going to do it, but it is a, it is not considered an empty threat because especially when it comes to the Middle East. He actually did a lot of things in those four years that people, I mean, I think, myself included, doubted he would actually follow through on. I've never expected anybody to actually follow through on moving the embassy. I lost some bets about that. Thank you, Mr. President. But you know, also things that you just like bluster. But, you know, we just. Yeah, we'll move the embassy. Go ahead.
- [30:17]
Matt Continetti
Even, even beyond the bluster here, the clarity of the statement. Notice there's no pressuring Israel to do anything about this here. He's not, he's not pretending that this is somehow Israel's fault to get to a deal. He's placing the blame squarely where it belongs. It's very simple language. He's going to have to do something to back this up if he doesn't get the outcome he's talking about here. I don't know what that something is.
- [30:54]
Abe Greenwald
Reminded me of the Fire and Fury tweet directed at Kim Jong un back in 2017. And then of course, later, Trump's statement that his nuclear button is bigger than Kim Jong Un's. So it's kind of classic Trump, kind of coming out very strong, promising awful consequences if the hostages aren't released. I think the timing of the tweet is important too, because there does seem to be some slim potential for renewed talks between Israel, Qatar and Hamas in Egypt. And we'll see if that shows any promise. But I think Seth is right. He's coming into this with credibility, especially when it comes to the, to the Middle East. I mean, you know, Trump, Trump is wary of foreign entanglements, but as you say, when forced, he took out Qasem Soleimani. He was president when we got Baghdadi, the leader of isis. He, he has, I think, a sense of Jacksonian foreign policy, as Walter Russell Mead would say, where, you know, it's, there's no better friend, no worse enemy. And for people who take hostages, Americans who keep them under ground for over a year, subject them to all types of horrors. I think Trump has very little pity. And I should say it's also somewhat reassuring to get that tweet or truth yesterday because it came after the news that he was appointing his daughter's father in law, Mossad Boulos, to be the special envoy for the Middle East. And so Sabulos ties, heavy ties to Lebanon. Kind of the point man for the outreach to the Arab American vote. Some of us in the pro Israel community might have been a little bit worried that Trump might not be as pro Israel going into his second term. But I think it's clearly the case that he remains staunchly pro Israel and determined to get the hostages home. And remember that he said something similar to during his convention speech. It was in the second hour of the convention speech, so people might have nodded off. You know, it's pretty late at night.
- [33:32]
Seth Mandel
On second of five.
- [33:34]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah. So but nonetheless, he did. And it was a very strong moment. Kind of a stirring moment in that, in that back half, the latter 45 minutes, you know, everything is. I want to bring up another Mar a Lago related topic because everything's happening in Mar a Lago. I think as we talked about on the podcast yesterday, it's basically like Trump is president. Now. He announced yesterday as well that he's going to be visiting France this weekend to attend the reopening of the Cathedral of Notre Dame, which the restoration looks pretty incredible. If people haven't seen the photos, I urge them to check it out. So he's going on a foreign trip a month ahead of his second inauguration. And as we've also been talking about, he had Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada to Mar a Lago during Thanksgiving weekend where they discussed Trump's threat to impose heavy tariffs if Canada didn't crack down on illegal immigration through its border into the United States and drug trafficking. And we got new reporting from that conversation from the Fox News team, including Bret Baer, just overnight. And apparently during the back and forth, Donald Trump said another thing that is music to my ears. In addition to promising vengeance if the hostages are not released, Trump suggested to Prime Minister Trudeau, you know, we could just make Canada the 51st state, which as someone who still waves the lost cause of the War of 1812, the moment when the United States could have extended the empire of liberty to our northern neighbors. That was just really ringing to my ears. It was beautiful. Then apparently Trudeau didn't know what to say, which was great. Someone then at the table joked, you know, Mr. President, Canada's a state is probably going to be pretty liberal. Ha ha, ha. And here's Trump's genius. Instead of saying, oh, yeah, you know, you're right, he said, well, we can make it two states. We can have Western Canada be the conservative state and then French Canada can be the liberal state. So I just want to say that this is a moment of creative thinking, you know, a moment of possibility that I'm very cheerful for. And if at the back end of Trump's second term, the United States has expanded to include Canada and Greenland, I'm sorry that that's one of the most successful presidencies in the history of this country.
- [36:11]
Matt Continetti
Well, he also, there was the zinger part of it. I mean, the whole thing was a zinger. But he said to Trudeau, you know, if you, if Canada can't handle the tariff, then, you know, then we could just make it the 51st state and you can be governor.
- [36:25]
Christine Rosen
Yeah, Justin can be governor. Well, this actually does point. This makes me, it's a reminder that this transition period has been very odd for the country in the sense that obviously having, you know, not since Grover Cleveland, having a president have a second term with a break, but the absolute disappearance of not only our president, but the vice president who'd been the leader of her party. She's just AWOL as well. And he is filling a void and filling a need by kind of appearing at things like the Notre Dame Cathedral unveiling and stuff. And nobody's complaining about it. And if you hear. And the press has become strangely muted, it's almost like they're still stunned. So you'll occasionally see one of these predictable pieces about everyone at the Justice Department's very fearful about Cash Patel or Bondi or some of his choices. But it has an almost surreal quality to it. It's almost resigned acceptance, because when they look for an alternative voice to tell them that's not the media, who in the Democratic Party is actually responding in real time to most of these things? Who isn't a pundit, a leader? Who in the Democratic Party is leading the charge against what the new Trump administration is doing?
- [37:37]
Abe Greenwald
I think that's a great point. Have you seen, like, the list of people running for chairman of the Democratic National Committee? I mean, it's has beens and Randos. I mean, you know, state senators from Wisconsin and they're talking about the how well they did organizing Wisconsin when Wisconsin went for Trump. There's a state senator, I think, from New York no one's ever heard of. Martin O'Malley is still around. The ghost of Christmas past. Yeah. Rahm Emanuel might throw his hat into the ring with no one. Who are they? Who's in charge here? And you raise an excellent point about, of course, Biden is out of it. But the vice president also has not been seen. Her schedule again today says that she'll be in meetings. She'll be in meetings all day. Mr. Jack. Captain Jack. I think those are good air meetings, you know, because the one time she's come out since the election was the, was the horrible video. So of course she's not going to say anything.
- [38:38]
Seth Mandel
Yeah, it was like Groundhog Day. She saw her shadow and right back in.
- [38:40]
Abe Greenwald
I mean, she has to prepare six.
- [38:43]
Seth Mandel
More weeks of no president.
- [38:44]
Abe Greenwald
I wonder whether, you know, she, she always prepares so much that to the point where, you know, she would take days off the campaign trail to prepare for a podcast interview. I wonder if she's spending a lot of time trying to think about how she's going to behave when she has to certify the election and she'll be the first sitting vice president to have to certify the election of her opponent since Richard Nixon in 1961. And I wonder how maybe she's so programmed that they have to go through that choreography or they have to, or she's just having a lot of late nights and late wake up calls.
- [39:27]
Matt Continetti
You know, also, the fact that neither Kamala Harris nor Joe Biden is up to much these days makes things like, makes the pot, makes the pardon just fill up that vacuum. Right. There's no other policy going on. There's no other, you know, there's nothing else to report on about them except this.
- [39:54]
Abe Greenwald
Everything kind of came to a halt.
- [39:55]
Matt Continetti
Yeah.
- [39:56]
Abe Greenwald
Which is interesting. Right?
- [39:58]
Seth Mandel
Which is. There is, I think that there's a sense of relief in a lot of quarters that Trump has stepped into it in the way that, that he has too. Right. Because you only have one president at a time. But we kind of had no president at a time, you know, for this, this transition was, you know, nobody had the. Biden was seen as somebody who had checked out. And so then it was really up to the whole point of switching out the ticket and putting Harris at the top of the ticket was to put someone in control who can, who the public believes is all there and present and, you know, champing at the bit to do this big job. And she's not there anymore either. So, you know, I think that there's some sense of like, well, there would really be a vacuum. And in his first term, the first time that Trump went, it went through the transition to becoming president in 2016, they were like, you know, that's a Logan act violation. You know, he'd call like an ambassador and they'd say, like, well, we're gonna get a special prosecutor on this for him. Talking to a for. And now they're like, all right, Go talk, you know, have. Have a conference with Justin Trudeau and go, you know, visit the Notre Dame Cathedral.
- [41:14]
Abe Greenwald
I think that's the key, Seth, is what we're living through is something we haven't really lived through in a while, and that is in a presidential honeymoon period. Yeah, right. I mean, because we did not have that. We really haven't had it since 2008, if you think about it, in 2012, Obama was reelected. It was very quick. We moved right into the second term Obama in 2016, as you say, Trump's election was immediately challenged. Its legitimacy was immediately put in question by the Hillary campaign and the Democrats. And the Russia collusion narrative began to take shape very, very early on. Comey, too, with that briefing that he then memorialized even before Trump became president. Was that Trump Tower? Right. So, and then 2020, in 2021, we were still in Covid. We had just gone through Trump's challenging of the election. Biden again, it was kind of a mystery to many people because of the basement campaign. And there was a brief period where he was popular, but then that was completely gone by the time of the Afghan retreat in August of 2021. So we really haven't had this type of moment in American politics for quite some time where someone wins an election. No one is questioning the legitimacy of the election. And it's odd, as Christine points out, because since he was already president, he's moved to fill his cabinet so rapidly, and he's already making these demands on foreign leaders, and people are coming to him. People try to have conversations. He's already in this mode. I will just say this. The honeymoon will end. And I have to. I have to always question, you always have to say, you know, okay, people seem quiet right now. The media, the Democrats seem kind of confused and lost right now. But let me tell you, they will be back. They'll probably be back sometime next year, and we'll be right in the thick of it again. But this is a moment, I think, for the country to kind of just relax, be pleasant.
- [43:23]
Matt Continetti
What has surprised me so much about this period is how quiet the end of democracy talk went immediately upon his winning. Right. Like this would. Wouldn't this if his election had meant the end of democracy, wouldn't this now be the now we are, now we are in the crisis?
- [43:45]
Abe Greenwald
Well, once Joe. Once Joe met with him in the Oval Office, the crackling fire. And then Joe, the other Joe and Mika went to see him at Mar a Lago.
- [43:53]
Christine Rosen
The game was up there. There's a feeble Attempt to revive a strain of that argument in the response to the pardon by shifting it to, yeah, it's bad. He did it not because he lied to the public repeatedly and his son is clearly a felon who should serve time, but because it will open the door to a dangerous assault on democracy by, by Donald Trump. Who will he pardon? He could pardon anyone now. I mean, he could pardon anyone before and did. And the reason I call it feeble is that I don't think anyone's buying it anymore. I mean, this was, this was the only argument that one could make to try to cover for what Joe Biden's obvious self interest and repeated lying to the public produced.
- [44:36]
Matt Continetti
Yeah.
- [44:37]
Seth Mandel
By the way, Trump needs any help in that department. It's not like Trump sees Biden do something, he's like, oh, well, yeah, if Joe can do, you know, like opportunity for one of it, you know, one of his pardons from his first term is his ambassador to France for this term. So like he, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't have any hesitation I think in that department either. Just, just the whole point is just like to the public, they all kind of look the same. It's like, you know, Joe, Joe, Joe doesn't need anybody to tell him he can do it, he's going to do it. Trump doesn't need anybody to tell him he can do it, he's just going to do it.
- [45:10]
Abe Greenwald
One of Trump's pardons in the second term may well be Trump. We still have that to look for.
- [45:18]
Matt Continetti
But, you know, but generally I just, it occurs to me that as Matt says, the honeymoon is going to end. When it ends, I suspect the line of attack will be less the end of democracy. Trump is Hitler than it will be. He's making this mistake, he's making that mistake. This is stupid, this is reckless. This was done sloppily and so on because the death of democracy was such a loser as a, as an election.
- [45:50]
Christine Rosen
What you are hearing is normal. That would be reassuring.
- [45:54]
Abe Greenwald
You are hearing, though, from the resistance constitutional crisis we're heading. It's going to be four years of a constitutional crisis. The constitutional crisis has already started because of Trump's appointments. And, you know, this again raises the question, well, what is a constitutional crisis? The president using his appointment power does not strike me as a constitutional crisis. But I do think that there will be a chorus of Trump opponents throughout the term once it begins, saying, we're in the middle of a constitutional crisis. And of course, we have to keep in mind that this House majority for the Republicans is historically narrow. We're looking at a potential one seat majority for the first hundred days of the Trump presidency. And if the Republicans were to lose the house in 2026, well, then the words constitutional crisis will carry on a lot more meaning because you have folks like Jamie Raskin, you know, Maryland's finest, preparing to overthrow Jerry Nadler to be ranking on House Judiciary. And if the gavel switches hands in two years, which could be a possibility, they're going to impeach Trump again. So, you know, again this moment. Yeah, Three Pete. Right. And why not a fourth time, too? Because he'll have two years left. Right. So just steel yourself. This is the time to kind of the holidays, relax, watch some football, great snow, catch up on the streaming stuff. But it's going to get, it's going to get pretty heavy pretty soon.
- [47:35]
Matt Continetti
So quick, switch up briefly, talk a little bit about foreign policy here. Well, not even foreign policy. Foreign affairs, really. Ukrainian policy. So Volodymyr Zelensky is now floating this proposal whereby if Ukraine gets some sort of quick acceptance into NATO, he would be willing to freeze the state of affairs of the war. In other words, who occupies and controls what territories and then push for all for a better deal diplomatically later on. Very surprised to hear this. When I was in Ukraine in July, it was like sacrilege to whisper the idea that anything other than total victory was worth it. And things are changing.
- [48:56]
Abe Greenwald
Things are changing. People seem to be positioning themselves for what they believe will be the end game of the war once Trump takes office. So Zelensky's play, as you say, Abe, is to float this possibility of NATO membership for parts of Ukraine that are under the gut government's control and then a freezing of the lines and event, you know, some diplomatic process which probably will never go anywhere to regain the territories that Russia now occupies. Now, this is a proposal that I don't think is going to go very far because the appetite among NATO to extend membership to Ukraine is still low in it's never really been high. And now that the war is going on, I think the chances are, are dim that this will happen. But it's not the only plan that's going on. You know, Biden and the current administration is attempting to send as much material as they can before they leave office. They just announced another big weapons package today or yesterday. And Biden also came across the transom changed some regulation that might allow the Secretary of State to send even more money. I mean, about 65 million. So Biden too, is preparing for this endgame by giving Ukraine as much material as he can. And then there's Russia. And I just wanted to read this extract that I came across. This is in the ft. The FT spoke to a man named Konstantin Malafayev, who they describe as, quote, a Russian tycoon subject to Western sanctions. And Malafiyev told the FT what will happen when Trump's special envoy for Ukraine, General Keith Kellogg, makes the proposal for a potential peace deal. Quote, kellogg comes to Moscow with his plan. We take it and then tell him to screw himself because we don't like any of it. That would be the whole negotiation. The world is on the brink of nuclear war. Malofyev warned. If, you know, if, at the end of the day this happens, quote, there will be a radiation zone, nobody will ever go into our lifetime, and the war will be over. And he further adds that Trump could end the conflict only if he reverses the Biden administration decision to allow the US supplied long range weapons by Ukraine and forces Zelensky to step down. When you hear that the chances that any peace deal is going to be successful are very, very slim. And what that suggests is that despite saying that he could end the war in 24 hours, Trump may end up actually boosting Ukrainian defenses in the short term if he feels as though Russia is the one who has slaps him down when he attempts to make a deal.
- [52:13]
Matt Continetti
Yeah. And who dictates to him? Right, yeah.
- [52:16]
Abe Greenwald
Right. Yeah.
- [52:17]
Seth Mandel
Nobody puts baby in the corner.
- [52:19]
Abe Greenwald
Right. Well, speaking of. Just gonna say, speaking of baby in the corner, but you're not a baby. Seth Mandel. You have many, you have many babies, but they're growing up every day. But nonetheless. You have a recommendation for us today?
- [52:35]
Seth Mandel
I have a recommendation from Babyland. I do. My recommendation is there's a show on FX called say Nothing. It's an adaptation of Patrick Rad Keefe's book of the same name from 2020, I believe, and it's about the Irish Troubles. And it's an excellent, excellent. It's been very well reviewed. So I don't think it's a surprise for anybody to hear at this point, but it's really, truly excellent. And what it does is it looks at the troubles through the lens of, especially the Belfast Brigade of the ira. And so you get the main characters, Jerry Adams, people like that. But the star and the protagonist of the series is Dolores Price, who was a, an IRA terrorist, one of the first female IRA terrorists who wasn't in, like the women's section, you know, in the ira. It was very gender divided and gender segregated. And she was the brains behind the bombing of several locations in London at once during some of the bloodier times. The show picks up in 1972, I think, which really was probably among the bloodiest years precisely because of that. And then goes to prison. And so it's through her eyes. And her sister, Marion Price. Dolores and Marian Price, they're the daughters of an IRA guy and sort of carrying on tradition is the way they would put it. And Jerry Adams. And crucially, this is what made the book, I think, such a sensation at the time it began with Patrick Radon. Keefe wrote a piece for the New Yorker about Gene McConville. Gene McConville was the most controversial, even among the IRA and its supporters of the disappeared, which were people that the IRA picked up in the middle, knocked in the middle of the night like the Soviets, put in a car, drove out wherever and shot and buried and never told anybody what happened to them. They were the disappeared. They were all. They were all murdered. The disappeared. They were not like in witness protection program. And they were usually informants. And Gene McConville was a suspected informant, although in part this is so controversial among even IRA supporters, because she does not appear to have been an informant. But she live. She. She was a widowed mother of 10. So at some point the IRA, you know, kicked in her door in front of 10 children, a widow in front of her 10 children, and pulled her out and nobody ever saw her again. And the stories from inside the IRA are that people inside the IRA hesitated to shoot. We don't know exactly what's real, but part of the series.
- [55:42]
Abe Greenwald
She's the main character.
- [55:45]
Seth Mandel
Yeah.
- [55:45]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, I see.
- [55:46]
Seth Mandel
Yeah. So Gene. Gene McConville and the. Is the. Is the woman who was not part of the ira, who was just a widow who was taken by the ira, and the terrorist, who. And Dolores Price, as the show shows, ends up being the person who tends to drive the disappeared out. So this is the connection.
- [56:08]
Abe Greenwald
Here.
- [56:08]
Seth Mandel
We have two female leads, really, about the troubles, which was highly unusual in both cases. But Gene McConville was. But the show is boosted by the Belfast Project, which was an oral history project at Boston College, I think Boston College or Boston University, which had former members of the Iraq answering questions and, you know, a sort of Jerry Ford write it when I'm dead terms. And so it has a lot to go on, but the show is very good. And the one other thing that I would say, first of all, just to. In very good TV series, there's often One episode that really stands out even among a show with no weak episodes. And the episode that really stands out in this was the hunger strike. Dolores and her sister, Marion Price, when they are imprisoned for the London bombing, they go on a hunger strike to demand to be transferred to a women's prison back in Ireland. And it is.
- [57:18]
Matt Continetti
Don't tell too much.
- [57:20]
Seth Mandel
No, but this is this kind of central.
- [57:22]
Matt Continetti
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:23]
Seth Mandel
This is. This is kind of a central thing, is this. Is this. This hunger strike. The IRA were famous for their hunger strikes. They went on one, too. And this is. That episode was really tremendous. And it's the only episode that was directed by Alice Seabright. And so props to her. And then lastly, the show does take a very dim view of Jerry Adams because of his willingness to pretend that he, you know, to say, I was never a member of the ira, whatever, and sort of the feeling from inside the IRA that he had, you know, turned, abandoned them all in his pursuit of power. So it's not a. It's not a happy ending with the Good Friday Agreement. It's just, you know, it's sort of the human drama within the IRA of it all. And they managed to do it without making anybody in the IRA seem like a hero. Say nothing on FX and Hulu. And you're the.
- [58:19]
Matt Continetti
You're not. You're not the first person to recommend the show to me. And I'm sure if I ever watch a scripted TV show again, it'll be this one.
- [58:28]
Abe Greenwald
The Irish just had an election where, of course, Sinn Fein was involved. And then I'm hoping for the next show about Ireland to be about how they reevaluate their policy toward Israel. Yeah, looking forward to that. And then just finally on Patrick Radon Keefe. He's an amazing writer and, in fact, the author of, I think, one of the greatest New Yorker articles of all time. It's an article called the Snakehead, and it is about a legal Chinese criminal mastermind who's a woman living in New York City. And he turned it into a book. The book is not as. Because it's more sprawling. It's not as powerful as the original article. But if anyone wants to Google Patrick Rad and Keefe the Snakehead, you're in for a great read right before you start watching.
- [59:21]
Matt Continetti
Excellent. So it's kind of a double recommends here.
- [59:23]
Abe Greenwald
We have to have double recommends, as I say, since I'm John here, at least.
- [59:28]
Matt Continetti
Yes.
- [59:28]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah.
- [59:28]
Seth Mandel
It's Patrick Rad Keefe day.
- [59:30]
Matt Continetti
Right. All right. Well, for Christine, Matt, Seth, and the absent John Pon Horiz, who we hope gets better soon. Sure he will. We'll be back with us. I'm Abe Greenwalt. Keep the candle burning.