The Commentary Magazine Podcast — "Late Night With Jimmy Who?"

Date: September 19, 2025
Host: John Podhoretz, with Christine Rosen, Abe Greenwald, Seth Mandel, and Oliver Darcy

Overview:

This episode revolves around the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel from ABC’s late night lineup and uses the incident to explore bigger themes: the decline of broadcast television, the increasing intertwining of government power and media, free speech, cultural fragmentation, and the assertive new posture of conservative cultural politics. Drawing on current events and past examples, the hosts debate the commercial and political logic of late-night TV, the storm of controversy created by Kimmel's politically charged remarks after Charlie Kirk’s assassination, how government pressure influences corporate and creative decisions, and the broader precariousness of free expression in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Diminishing Relevance of Jimmy Kimmel and Broadcast Late Night

• Kimmel’s Ratings: John Podhoretz introduces the “enervating prospect” of discussing Kimmel’s employment status and contextualizes it with dismal numbers: "in the coveted 18 to 49 demographic, 110,000 viewers a night on average." (01:29)
• Commercial and Audience Disconnect: Podhoretz asks, "Why is Jimmy Kimmel still on the air when ABC could go to Joe Rogan and pay Joe Rogan $50 million a year to bring his 190 million downloads a month audience...?" (02:45)
  • Conclusion: Rogan is “too controversial,” advertisers and affiliates are wary of blowback.
• Late-Night as a Legacy Format: Abe Greenwald compares Kimmel to a travel agent in an era of online booking — "a holdout of an older time." (04:58)

2. The Dynamics of TV Comedy and Political Partisanship

• Incentive Structures in Comedy: The panel discusses how the comedy business now “trains” talent to pick a side.
  • Oliver Darcy notes, “You're sort of trained in this business now to pick a side. In a weird way, this is what happened with Dave Chappelle when he ... criticized trans people.” (10:18)
• Kimmel and Colbert Not True Comedians: Podhoretz asserts "Kimmel is not a comedian. Kimmel is a talk show host. These are different jobs." (11:18)
• Narrow-Casting, Not Broadcasting: Christine Rosen observes the creative myopia: “I don't think there is a sort of critical mass...involved in the creation of television who would begin to wrap their heads around a sensibility that could appeal to non liberals.” (09:27)

3. The Kimmel Suspension: Culture, Commerce, and Government Power

• Commercial/FCC Pressures: The hosts detail the layers of pressure on ABC—Kimmel’s ratings, affiliate anger, offensive remarks, and now political threats.
• Government Interference: Abe Greenwald denounces FCC commissioner Brendan Carr's intervention as “completely wrong,” likening such pressure to jawboning: “anyone who calls themselves a conservative who's trying to defend that is not truly a conservative...” (07:31)
• Trump’s Cultural Barrage: The panel agrees that Trump’s willingness to aggressively exert power over private corporations is a watershed, but not unprecedented ("Presidents have the power... They'll use it”; Podhoretz, 20:48).

4. Fragmented Audiences and Loss of Cultural Common Ground

• Atomization of Audiences: John contextualizes Kimmel’s tiny numbers by referencing Johnny Carson’s former 30 million nightly viewers, noting: "Kimmel has a 30th of the audience" Carson did. (18:28)
• No One Knows 'What the Job Is' Anymore: Darcy confesses, "What is the job? What is the role here that Kimmel is supposed to play...?" (16:27)
• Modern Cultural Therapy for Liberals: Rosen frames late night as “therapy for liberals...you're going to end up with...some version of the same problem." (30:40)
• No Formula for Broad Appeal: “There was more common ground culturally... We are so much more fragmented now that I don't know how you...appeal to more than 1, 2 adjacent lanes...” (Rosen, 30:40)

5. Free Speech, Emergency Powers, and Political Hypocrisy

• Slippery Slope of Government Speech Regulation: Darcy highlights Sen. Cynthia Loomis's recent remarks, "I tend to think that the First Amendment should always be sort of the ultimate right...I don't feel that way anymore." (37:16)
• Historical Parallels and Dangers: Greenwald warns, “under the Biden administration...they actually did want to expand the FCC's reach...this is actually why one of the concerns about how, how Trump's FCC is behaving should concern anyone..." (36:04)
• Bipartisan Use of Controversial Power: Podhoretz draws a line between Trump’s actions and Obama’s pressure as president over the auto industry and universities (21:08, 39:22).

6. The Free Speech Martyr Question

• Double Standard in Cultural Disputes: Podhoretz reflects on the morality of defending controversial speech, recalling the Roseanne Barr firing and the mechanism of private company discretion. (59:11)
• Limits and Responsibilities: Podhoretz contends, “Kimmel failed by creating this controversy that he did not have to create. Yes, free speech. But...I know not to do it...I have responsibilities as I speak.” (32:26)

7. The Accelerant of Social Media and Cultural Power Shifts

• Rapid-fire Controversy: Podhoretz: "everything moves now at 50,000 times speed," recounting ABC’s emergency meeting and affiliate pressure after Kimmel chose to double down. (66:04)
• Conservatives as New Culture Warriors: He observes, “Conservatives are asserting a cultural power that they have never asserted before.” (25:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kimmel as Legacy Figure:
  • "He's like the travel agent after the Internet has allowed us to book our tickets directly." — Abe Greenwald (04:58)
• On Commentary/Comedy Partition:
  • "Let's make this clear. Kimmel is not a comedian. Kimmel is a talk show host." — John Podhoretz (11:18)
• On the Decline of Broadcasting:
  • "Late night is not a viable business in broadcasting anymore." — Quoting Sherry Redstone, via John Podhoretz (18:28)
• On FCC and Free Speech:
  • "I'm a conservative, so I think it's wrong. I thought it was wrong when Biden did it too. And anyone who calls themselves a conservative, who's trying to defend that is not truly a conservative..." — Abe Greenwald (07:31)
• On the New Marketplace:
  • “There's a conservative ecosystem apart from the liberal ecosystem...And now it's like, you know what? I don't want this ecosystem. David Ellison is going to buy Paramount..." — John Podhoretz (25:48)
• On Cultural Fragmentation:
  • "I don't know how you get, how you appeal to more than 1, 2 adjacent lanes out there." — Christine Rosen (30:40)
• On Government Power and Cultural Control:
  • “Trump is not a conservative exactly...It is seeing how far it can go and what it can do. This is a very raw power construction.” — John Podhoretz (39:22)
• On Free Speech Double Standards:
  • "I do not think that ABC has a moral or legal obligation to continue to employ Jimmy Kimmel." — John Podhoretz (59:11)
  • "Jimmy Kimmel can go out right now and make a video on Twitter...He can stand on a soapbox in MacArthur Park. Nothing is stopping him." — John Podhoretz (54:56)
  • Josh Gerstein’s retort: "What you are describing is Russia — for now, with a few less poisonings, arrests, and falling from high windows." (55:22)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:48 — Introduction to Kimmel Controversy
• 02:45 — Why not replace Kimmel with Rogan?
• 04:58 — Kimmel as a relic/boutique entertainer
• 09:27 — Why not aim late night at a broader audience?
• 10:18 — Comedy as a political monolith; Chappelle's example
• 14:48 — Kimmel as a disruptive corporate asset
• 18:28 — Decline of late night TV; Sherry Redstone's statement
• 21:08 — Presidential pressure on private corporations (Obama/Trump comparisons)
• 25:48 — New conservative cultural assertiveness
• 30:40 — Impossible task of appealing to a national audience
• 36:04 — Dangers of expanding FCC oversight
• 37:16 — Sen. Loomis and shifting views on the First Amendment
• 39:22 — The “post-conservative” right and the pursuit of cultural power
• 54:56 — Kimmel, free speech, and Russia comparison
• 66:04 — Real-time acceleration of scandal and corporate panic

Conclusion & Tone

• The show remains fast-paced, irreverent, slightly combative, and intellectually nimble—a hallmark of Commentary’s tone.
• The hosts are clear: Kimmel’s predicament is a microcosm of larger American tensions—between commerce and controversy, free speech and political power, shrinking shared culture and ideological echo chambers.
• They express nostalgia, scorn, and a mixture of fatalism and hope about the future of both mass entertainment and civic liberty.

For Further Reference

• Recommended Book: "Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future" by Dan Wang (Abe Greenwald, 70:14)
• Historical Contexts: Roseanne Barr’s firing; Obama’s pressure on car companies and universities; the evolution of the FCC’s reach.

Note: This summary focuses on the content-rich political and cultural discussions, omitting advertisements, self-promotions, or technical notes.