Look Who's Talking Nicely About MAGA

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast

Episode: Look Who's Talking Nicely About MAGA
Date: November 14, 2025
Panel: John Podhoretz (Host), Abe Greenwald, Seth Mandel, Christine Rosen

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on recent mainstream media stories that suggest a rift between Donald Trump and his MAGA base—specifically with regard to his alleged drift from "America First" priorities. The hosts critically dissect these claims, examine the real dynamics within the MAGA movement, compare Trump’s support to past presidents’ party loyalty, and discuss the broader political narrative around Trump’s second term, economic challenges, and administration competence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Media Narratives: Is There a MAGA-Schism?

• Mainstream Media Reporting: The New York Times and The Washington Post both headline with stories suggesting that Trump’s policies (like engagement with foreign crises and talk of skilled immigrant labor) are alienating his core base. The Atlantic runs a parallel narrative about Trump’s supposed indifference to economic pain ([00:48]).
• Skepticism from Hosts: John Podhoretz questions whether these stories reflect genuine discontent in the MAGA base or are simply wishful thinking by the liberal media. He points out the irony that the liberal media might typically celebrate Trump's embrace of high-skilled immigration, but instead spin it as a MAGA betrayal:

  “You would think they would say, well, even Trump knows that [immigration for highly-skilled workers] is a good idea. ... But that's not where they're going. They're going with, 'oh, poor MAGA'...” — John Podhoretz ([03:15])

• No Real Divide?: The panel argues that for MAGA, Trump IS the movement. Points of policy difference don't manifest as genuine schisms:

  “There is no gap. Trump is MAGA. MAGA is the act of supporting Trump personally.” — John Podhoretz ([04:55])

• Restive, Not Rebellious: Christine Rosen notes that less cultish Republicans are “restive, not angry” about policies like tariffs or prices, but they still support Trump ([05:51]).

2. Historical Perspective: MAGA vs. Past Party Cracks

• No “Bush 2005” Moment: The show revisits George W. Bush’s plummeting Republican support after Iraq/Katrina, arguing that Trump’s base is different—it's personal loyalty, not policy-based.

  “Trump has never asked for anything of his followers other than fealty to him personally.” — John Podhoretz ([08:49])

3. Are the Cited MAGA Critics Credible?

• Mainstream Journalistic Sources: Seth Mandel critiques the Times and Post for relying on perennial outlandish figures (Bannon, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tom Massie) for their "MAGA discontent" narratives, suggesting these are unrepresentative outliers seeking publicity ([10:17–13:12]).

  “Is that the main critique? Are those the words of somebody who sounds like they're really worried about…the price of corn? Or is that somebody involved in a dirt-throwing primary?” — Seth Mandel ([11:08])

4. Enduring MAGA-Trump Bond

• Bafflement from the Left & Media: Christine Rosen observes that the persistent personal loyalty Trump commands, even after personal or political failures, remains inscrutable to the media left:

  “Even when he makes terrible mistakes … they still keep coming back for more. ... Even after more than a decade of reporting on Trump, they're still mildly baffled.” — Christine Rosen ([13:12])

5. Economic Risks and Political Prospects

• What Actually Threatens Trump: The real threats aren’t “schism” but macroeconomic issues—prices, possible bursting of AI/stock bubbles, or an economic downturn ([16:08–20:14], [29:12–31:43]).
• Second Term Blues: The podcast explains that “second term presidents” often look out-of-touch, and Trump is now suffering from the same syndrome—heightened by security concerns after the assassination attempt:

  “All second term presidents look out of touch like that. … He's also somebody who … has the ghost of having almost been shot…” — John Podhoretz ([28:01])

6. Trump’s Style and “Competence” Issues

• Relying on Gimmicks: Christine Rosen warns that off-the-cuff ideas (like a “50-year mortgage”) plus questionable appointees signal policy incoherence and administrative incompetence:

  “When he does try to wade into the macroeconomic issues, he falls pretty hard flat on his face. The 50-year mortgage idea... sounds incompetent.” — Christine Rosen ([19:07])

• Uniquely Dysfunctional?: Christine lists “an unusual number of incompetent people in his administration,” distinguishing this from usual second-term troubles ([30:03]).

7. Historical Comparisons and the Economy’s Role

• Clinton as Model: They invoke Bill Clinton’s scandal-survival, credited to positive economic conditions ([31:39–36:46]).

  “Clinton had a booming economy. ... And he survived something no one else would have survived because his party stuck with him in part because they had a story to tell.” — John Podhoretz ([32:50])

• For Trump, Job Approval Will Depend on Economy: If the economy holds, Trump’s “out-of-touch” persona won’t cost him; if not, vulnerability increases ([37:11–38:50]).

8. Future Political Fights & Impeachment

• Impeachment Anticipated: Panelists speculate that a Democratic House in 2026 will likely impeach Trump again, but with little ultimate effect ([39:47–41:05]).

  “He'll be the only president impeached a third time.” — Christine Rosen ([41:05])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On MAGA Loyalty:

  “MAGA is to support Trump and to support Trump, you don't necessarily have to support Trump.” — Seth Mandel ([07:09])

• On Mainstream Media’s Perpetual Bafflement:

  “They have not yet found that guy for themselves on the left.” — Christine Rosen ([13:12])

• On Trump's populist appeal:

  “He is our vengeance. He is our retribution. He is the payback for the political class having screwed the pooch…” — John Podhoretz ([22:57])

• On Second Term Vulnerability:

  “That's every president who is in that situation … is going to lose their ability to change the narrative because they look like a lame duck.” — Seth Mandel ([29:12])

• On Historical Parallels:

  “Clinton had this thing where his personal approval rating was in the toilet, but his work approval rating was in the 60s, and he survived it.” — John Podhoretz ([33:01])

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Important Timestamps

• [00:48] — Introduction of the media “Trump vs. MAGA” stories
• [02:13] — Christine Rosen reads from The Atlantic’s “Marie Antoinette like indifference” quote
• [05:51] — Christine on restive mainstream Republicans and policy worries
• [08:09] — John’s comparison to Bush’s declining second-term GOP support
• [10:17–12:03] — Seth’s breakdown of New York Times sources for MAGA discontent
• [13:12] — Christine on lasting left-wing media bafflement over Trump’s appeal
• [19:07] — Christine critiques Trump’s economic “gimmicks” (e.g., 50-year mortgage idea)
• [28:01] — Discussion of Trump’s now-rare rallies and “out-of-touchness”
• [30:03] — Christine on second-term incompetence, specifically new appointments
• [31:39–36:46] — Clinton second-term comparison: why the economy protected him
• [41:05] — Christine on a probable third impeachment
• [46:08] — Map “trap streets” anecdote during book recommendation section

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Book Recommendation

Christine Rosen recommends The Library of Lost Maps by James Cheshire, a journey through the magic, history, and manipulation of cartography. Features a fun fact: old mapmakers added “trap streets” to catch copyright violators ([47:27]).

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Summary Verdict

The episode debunks the media’s suggestion of an emerging schism between Trump and the MAGA base, instead describing an unwavering bond based more on personal loyalty than policy. They assert that Trump’s true vulnerability lies in broader economic circumstances, not in intra-party dissent or media-fueled feuds. Historical comparisons—especially to other beleaguered second-term presidents—underscore that economic performance, not character critiques or party drama, will ultimately define Trump’s fortunes.

Transcript

[A]

Hope for the best, expect the worst Some preach and pain Some die of thirst the way of knowing which way.

[B]

It'S going Hope for the best, expect.

[A]

The worst, hope for the best. Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Friday, November 14, 2025. I am John Podhor, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[C]

Hi, John.

[A]

Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.

[B]

Hi, John.

[A]

And social commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.

[D]

Hi, John.

[A]

I noted and Christine noted a third that the two leading newspapers of the liberal media, the New York Times and the Washington Post, have eerily similar stories leading their homepages today. The New York Times story is America First. Some Trump supporters worry that's no longer the case. President Trump has been dining with billionaires and taken an interest in crises abroad, leading to fears that he is drifting from his more populist stances. And the Washington Post's headline is Trump Faces Heat from MAGA Base on America First Agenda. Epstein. Its leaders erupted over his assertion that the US Needs foreign workers because it does not have enough talented people. That rift among other issues has raised some GOP concern about enthusiasm ahead of the 2026 midterms. So what is of interest to me when you have something like this happening where two leading journalistic institutions come up with a non news story and they come up with it on the same day? Christine, you saw a third at the Atlantic, which isn't a newspaper, but yours is. Just to add in the piece of.

[D]

Data, it's Mark Leibovich. And here's the little interesting quote says voters keep identifying the high cost of living as their chief concern. Meanwhile has displayed a Marie Antoinette like indifference to the economic struggles many Americans are mentioning. He's devoted time to overseeing the construction of a new patio and ballroom in the White House, hosting a Great Gatsby themed party at Mar a Lago, and reportedly trying to have the future home stadium of the Washington commanders named after him.

[A]

Well, you know, that is, he was probably listening to you on the Trump refusal to engage with the affordability crisis. But I think when this happens, you have to ask, what is it that is going on in the liberal mindset that leads to these stories that are, well, you know, over here on the planet Pluto, where the people who vote in horrible ways live, they're really getting angry at each other. Ooh, this could be fun. And good for us that they're all getting angry at each other. So is this an accurate depiction of a crisis on the right, or is it rather that the fact that Trump is saying certain types of things that you might actually expect the liberal media to grant him strange new respect on like we need highly skilled foreign workers. That's good for America. I never said otherwise. Those are H1B visas, not people coming across the border illegally, but sort of high skilled people that we can essentially bring in from other countries to add to our own storehouse of knowledge and to produce high end innovations and scientific change and all of that. You would think they would say, well, even Trump knows that that's a good idea. Or even Trump knows that maybe the tariffs, even Trump is learning that maybe the tariffs aren't the greatest economic issue. But that's not where they're going. They're going with, oh, poor maga. They're getting really angry at Trump. And I don't think that's true. I mean I'm not like on a conference call with MAGA where they are getting all upset about everything seems to.

[D]

Be included on that call. It's a great call every morning.

[A]

Yeah, they don't, I'm not on that call. Yeah, I wasn't invited to the Gatsby party either. So I am really on the outs here. I still think that the idea that there is any substantive difference whatsoever between MAGA as a thing and Trump as its representation is non existent. There is no gap. Trump is maga. MAGA is the act of supporting Trump personally. We've spent now almost a decade trying to come up with a defensible or definable philosophy that undergirds Trump's actions. And we have been defeated in doing so because there is no such thing, definable strategy, policy or set of ideas that can be added up into a judicial, judicial, into a political philosophy. And my guess is if you ask Republicans right now, 90% of them would say they support Trump or 95% of.

[D]

Them would say part of the story that rings true though is that the Republicans who aren't super maga, you know, they're not, they don't, they don't buy in necessarily to the cult of personality. Trump can do no wrong. But they're generally willing and, and we're willing to give him another chance. And they trust a lot of the policy changes he's made. They voted him in to make those policies, particularly the border and the anti woke stuff. But there they are. I would call them restive, not angry. They are worried about prices. And one thing that didn't get reported in a lot of these stories is that obviously Trump is taking that on board. He met with a bunch of CEOs the other night and kind ask them for ideas. I mean, he's doing what presidents should do when the economy isn't going the way they want to and they're searching for a message that will reassure their voters. So he's kind of being very traditional president in that sense. But I, you do hear from people who are in, consider themselves members of the Republican coalition that they are very concerned about the policies that he's enacted, the tariffs, most importantly. And so him rolling back the stuff on coffee and prices on those sorts of things, that's for those people.

[A]

But that is not what these stories are intended. These stories are intending to suggest that there is a division between Trump and maga, not mainstream Republicans who never like tariffs and stuff like that.

[C]

But see, I mean, look, look, I agree with you that the definition essentially of MAGA is that you support what Trump does. I agree with you. At the same time, I think there has always been some daylight between Trump and his most ardent supporters. It happens not to matter to them, I think. But he was proud of the COVID vaccine long after they were done with it. He turned essentially on them, on Ukraine. He's not, he's not unwilling to go against his base, but it's not as if they're then jettisoning the, moving the movement. So I agree that MAGA is to support Trump and to support Trump, you don't necessarily have to support Trump.

[A]

That's a very, I think, Seth, I think that's a very good way to put it, that if you're assuming somehow that what is going to happen to Trump, that there are signs and portents that what's going to happen to Trump in his second term is, say, what happened to George W. Bush, who was wildly popular with Republicans in his second term, when Iraq went south and when Hurricane Katrina destroyed a third of New Orleans and had such a devastating effect on the area around the Gulf of Mexico. And then he also proposed a sort of an immigration bill that was offensive to the hard. All those things together meant that the Republican Party or the right split started really fraying around now in the year 2005, ahead of a calamitous midterm. And Bush's reputation and standing on the right continued to decline to the point that when he left office, he had an approval rating below 30%. And that wasn't because Democrats hated him, because Democrats always hated him. It was that Republicans turned on him. And I just don't know that that is going to happen in this case. Trump has Never asked for anything of his followers other than fealty to him personally. So I guess they can pick and choose. They don't like tariffs. They don't, you know, they don't like that he hasn't cut Ukraine off. Some of them don't like the policy toward Israel. Some of them don't like, think, you know, wanted a full investigation into Epstein. Some of them want this, but in the end, all he wants is them not to oppose him and for them to like him. And they seem to be perfectly willing to do that if the.

[B]

I think so. But I also think that there's, you know, these, these, like the stories are, you know, not to, you know, not to make like a Trumpian fake news type of defensive response on behalf of the president. But like, all right, so what's in New York Times story is Tom Massie, who Trump is, is helping to support a primary against Steve Bannon, who was kicked out of the White House a thousand years ago, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is Marjorie Taylor Greene. So I'm not even sure that the story says what it says. It says, I think that there is like, there is rumbling on the maga, Right, about foreign entanglements. There is, but none of it's in the New York Times story. Like, the Times doesn't have its finger on the pulse. It's asking elected officials who have been in public fights with Trump. Now, maybe Tom Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene are being totally sincere in their specific complaints about affordability, but Tom Massie is quoted in the piece as saying that Trump is too busy protecting pedophiles. So is that, is, is that what MAGA thinks? I don't think so. Is that the main critique? Is that what are those the words of somebody who sounds like they're really worried about, you know, the price of corn? Or is that somebody who's involved right now in a kind of, you know, a dirt throwing primary contest against somebody who's trying to get him, you know, out of the Senate. Out of the House.

[A]

Sorry, out of the House. Right. I think that's a very good point. I mean, yeah, if what you surface are, you know, a failed. Has been Trumpian. Has been who in Bannon who, you know, claims to sort of be defining the outer reaches of Trumpian support and saying Trump's really, you know, blowing it or something like that with his audience. And then of course, we know like Nick Fuentes in the world of the ultra extreme podcast, right. Has already turned on Trump. I mean, it turned on Trump a year ago and thinks that he's a wuss and a wimp and he's somehow an Israeli agent or some version of that. But does that, is that, does that define a breach in the movement or is it just useful? They are being useful idiots for the New York Times left, they are. The thing they're saying they get attention.

[D]

For, it's the second thing, because, well, they're heat seeking. Attention missiles. I mean, attention seeking, seeking missiles. And so imagine Marjorie Taylor Greene's delight when the New York Times is consulting her on the fate of conservatives, on the fate of the right. I mean, this is. But that's why they do seek out those extremist views. And I think it speaks to what you were saying earlier, John, which is there isn't ever going to be daylight between Trump and maga. But the left, and particularly the media left have never really understood or been willing to accept why he's so appealing to such a broad range of voters. And even when he makes terrible mistakes, even even though his character is obviously morally compromised at many levels, they still keep coming back for more. And that, I think it's that conundrum that these stories continue to reflect. Even after more than a decade of reporting on Trump, they're still mildly baffled, like why, what is it about this guy? Because they have not yet found that guy for themselves on the left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There'S, there's a, I pointed this out a while ago, but I just looked it up to, to check the date in June. Trump's the super PAC that is helping the super PAC that is pro Trump and working against Tom Massey. Okay. In the primary, released an ad. The ad is like pretty, you know, it's, it's pretty intense. But there was one point and I had stopped it on a, and made a screen grab of it because it was like, it was a lot. But it says at one point there's a picture of the words on the screen are Massie voted no House, roll call vote, whatever. I don't have the audio of the thing, but I could tell you I think it's about probably some sort of trans issue because there's a picture of Massey looking wild eyed and next to him is imposed a picture of a fairly high profile drag queen. So Massey, drag queen, Massie voted no. Is the, is the picture in this? This is what the ad, you know, minute long ad is like. So Massey's a guy who's having his mug thrown up there with drag queen, drag queen story hour. Because the Trump people, you know, they take the gloves off. So I think that there's a lot going on here that is just, you know, internal fighting. But people in office, you know, Matt Massey has ways to respond to that because he's in office and he has to, because his career is on the line. Marjorie Taylor Greene is trying to build a new place for herself somehow in this political setting, and she has to fight her way, you know, forward in order to do that and dig in. And I feel like I'm watching a fight between office holders and that certainly not. There's nothing in the Times story to, you know, to, to, to make me think otherwise.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, what happened this week is that the Democrats is that the enough Democrats gave in to the Republican, the consistent Republican position on funding the government, that the government reopened under no understanding of political alliances or how power is expressed in Washington or anything like that. Did Trump lose the showdown fight, despite efforts to say, well, he may have won the battle, but he's lost, you will see, he's lost the war because the, you know, he poked. The sleeping giant has awoken on the, you know, on the left. And, ooh, they're mad and they want Chuck Schumer's head and they want his head and they want everybody in 2026 to be some variant of Zoran Mamdani. Ooh, big trouble. But in fact, the political victory that was scored this week was scored by the, the Trump and the two Republican leaders in the House and the Senate who said there's no reason to shut the government down and you're not going to get anything out of it if you do so Democrats. And they didn't. And the government reopened today or yesterday or whatever. And so if the political story of the week is Trump is losing it with the MAGA base, that's a weird angle on this week. I mean, you can say there are signs and portents that are bad for Republicans going into 2026, troubles with the economy, Trump, the Epstein story will be dogging him in some fashion, even if it doesn't develop much further, thus giving Democrats something to talk about on MSNBC or Ms. Now or Ms. Then or Ms. Tomorrow, whatever the hell it is, giving them something juicy that they can keep mining to keep up salacious interest in Trump's personal foibles and bad personal behavior. But politically, he's not losing anything. He backed Israel. Israel won the war. He did not want the government to be shut down. He gave nothing and the Republicans gave nothing and the government has reopened. The macro problems for Trump are macro problems. That's the economy which is something that he'll get credit for if things go well and he'll get blamed for if things go poorly. And there's almost nothing he can do about that. And the giant issue of whether or not the economy is being floated by this, whether AI is the future or is a bubble or is a combination of being the future but is also a bubble. And, and, and, and that 2026 is going to see the economy take a severe downturn because of that.

[D]

But there is, there is some. When he does try to wade into the macroeconomic issues, he falls pretty hard flat on his face. The 50 year mortgage idea which people in his own administration are like what I mean he's often, he'll just talk off the cuff about things that are on voters minds and then he sounds incompetent. So some of the idea. And then there is the tariff. Look, he has, he has led to a rise in prices for many, many goods because of the tariffs consumers pay the price of the tariff and his, his bet going in and what he promised voters when he had, you know, the super April tariffs that tanked the stock market for a few days was bear with us on the pain because long term it's going to bring back all these manufacturing jobs, this, that and the other. So far there is nothing he can point to that that plausibly reassures voters that that's the case. And so instead we have gimmicks and it's very much again the wheeler dealer gimmick guy comes up defensive. But you know, tossing off 50 year mortgage ideas here and coffee tariff reductions there and it's not enough. It's enough for a news cycle. It's not enough to actually reassure voters for an entire year before they go back to the polls.

[A]

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[C]

And he's delivered on all those issues. I mean, you know, he's, he's been crazy. Cracking down on bds, on trans, on the border deportations, like these, these, the other problems that, that Christine is talking about. And as you said, John, these are, these are macro problems. They're not MAGA problems.

[A]

Yeah, right. So I'm just saying, I think it, I think it becomes weird to say, because Marjorie Taylor Greene and Steve Bannon are exercised by the Jeffrey Epstein story, which, as I said earlier in the week, we're kind of all exercised by. Even if you think that it's a weird old news thing and there's probably nothing in these papers, every time it comes up, you go, what. What on earth happened there? What is the story? And it's 20 years of this now. And what. And I'm not satisfied with what I'm hearing and all that, but, like, assuming that, you know, three, as Seth would say, three disaffected members of the kind of Trump hagiography of 2016, and people who thought that he was some kind of, you know, super political superhero with magical powers, are now disappointed that he isn't, you know, marching with them down to Comet Pizza to see what's in the basement of Comet Pizza, because he's, because he wants to build a ballroom and, and, and, and help his children make billions of dollars in crypto, that's not how you, that's not what's going to take him down. That's not what. Lauren, you know, the, the, the sort of, the crazies in Congress and some podcast right wingers are not going to break Trump's connection to this 50 to the 50 million people that are his base. That's not, that's not how it works.

[D]

But what, but what could start to erode their confidence in his ability is the fact that, I mean, the crypto thing, with his sons making a fortune off of it, the glitzy ballroom, the Gilded Age party, there is something to Be said, I think it's too soon to make the critique that this shows he's out of touch. But his common touch, he doesn't get to be. He's not out there doing rallies as much. You know, he's, he's an executive now. He's in the White House. He's doing off all the foreign policy trips. So he's hemmed in and not able to be out there among the people at wwf, you shows and stuff in the way that he likes. He imports some of that to the White House and that's I think why they redid the Rose Garden in that way. But he is going to need to make sure that he's cautious about that if the macroeconomic issues regarding the economy continue to cause average Americans to suffer more pain because that is where he will start to look out of touch in the same way that Joe Biden did when we were all looking at inflationary prices spiking and he was like, nothing to see here. It's fine.

[A]

All second term presidents look out of touch like that. There is no, if you call this a second term, all second term presidents. And remember, he's also somebody who is, has the ghost of having almost been shot and killed at an open air rally, you know, like a year and three months ago. And if you think that doesn't factor into the way he conducts himself and lives his life. He did rallies throughout his first term. Every time he felt like he needed like basically to recharge his, you know, car battery, he would go to some place in the.

[D]

Can't do that now.

[A]

Yeah. And have 50,000 people out there. And I don't think they. He wants to do that.

[D]

Well and he got booed at the last football game like so he, and he's also a second term.

[A]

He went to a football game. If you'd gone to, if you'd gone to the, you know, Crimson Tide game or, you know, or something like that, you know, he probably wouldn't have, wouldn't have been booed.

[D]

But like, he obviously misses that and he's good at it. And so I think that must factor into some of the, it's going to factor into how people feel if the economy doesn't. Doesn't tick up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, you know, but.

[B]

And again, but these are general things, right? Like in other words, this is, as we said before, this is not really about, you know, the kitchen table issues are not really about MAGA. They care about them because, you know, 300 million people care about them. And that's a normal thing to care about. But I feel like every time you try to, we try to zoom in on what could be the problem between Trump and his base, we end up with second term president with a sputtering economy, which is like, you know, that's, that's every, every president who is in that situation is going to be dealing with complaints and, and is going to lose their ability to change the narrative because they look like a lame duck and people are fighting over there, you know, the succession and all that stuff. So I just don't know. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

But he also has an unusual number of incompetent people in his administration and he's just appointed another one, this Ingrazia person to, I guess, General Services Administration another job because the first job he wanted in the Office of Special Counsel was taken away when they discovered his anti Semitic technique messages. So, and we can go cabinet official by cabinet official and point to the people who actually have not been doing their jobs very well. So there's a competence level that is in addition to the normal second term presidential woes and a defensiveness about the incompetence that I think does make this, this second term Trump administration distinct from previous presidents.

[A]

Well, the case to be made for what both, Seth, what you and Christine are saying is second terms are bad. And they're particularly bad when the economy does not ballast them. Right. So that's Obama, things weren't great. 2013, 2014. Bush, things really weren't great in 2005, 2006. And then we started into the financial meltdown in 2007, leading to the most catastrophic final year. The one case that you can say, you see, if the economy is strong, you can get away with anything is Clinton, Clinton's second term. Imagine a world in which Clinton had Hurricane Katrina or some version of that or an inflationary spiral or something.

[B]

And then with the Iraq war, Katrina and the Iraq War were.

[A]

Yeah, but if you're Clinton and you get Monica Lewinsky at the beginning of 1998, the midterm season, and things aren't good otherwise, you do not survive. But Clinton had a booming economy. He had, you know, the government had gone into surplus with the payments on the deficit for the first time, like in 30 years, if, you know, there wasn't even that much government debt the last time there had been this kind of surplus, people were feeling good. And he survived something no one else would have survived because his party stuck with him in part because they had a story to tell. And the story was, let Me work, leave me alone. I'm doing a good job for you. These Republican maniacs are trying to distract me. And you can see when I'm paying attention, things go well, and so don't let them win.

[D]

He also had the entire feminist establishment and his wife drag Monica Lewinsky through the mud and defame her so that they could support him. So I just think that's important.

[A]

There are 10,000 things that somebody else wouldn't have gotten away with. Clinton wouldn't have blocking tackles from his wife or not. Clinton would not have survived his second term without a booming economy. It's just that, that. That simple. The Democratic Party had nowhere better to turn. At the time you thought, okay, well, so if he goes like, there's Al Gore, it's not like Al Gore isn't going to be the kind of president that, that Democrats want and won't pursue mostly the same policies that Clinton would have pursued. But Clinton had this thing where his personal approval rating was in the toilet, but his work approval rating was in the 60s, and he survived it. So Trump, the thing about Trump is, for him, he remains relevant or he remains powerful and potent. If he has that, America is running well, and all this other stuff is a distraction by lunatics who are so obsessed with their own stuff like honor and presidential honesty and stuff like that, that really doesn't matter at all. And preserving abortions, as Nina Burley said, she also would have gotten on her knees for Bill Clinton, a New York glossy magazine journalist, if she had had to, because she needed to save abortions from the evil Christian right. So Trump's out of touchiness won't matter if the economy is at 2.5 to 3%, or it'll matter, but it won't take them down. But a world in which Nvidia blows up the stock or AI really does go through a long, dark night of the soul in its valuations and all of that. And the thing that has been ballasting the larger American economy goes into receivership. All bets are off there. And then Democrats, of course, will benefit. They'll come in, in 2026 into the house and maybe into the Senate, and they will impeach Trump on one thing or another. And then we'll go through 2027 with an impeachment, and the battle lines will be drawn, and it'll be the same kind of thing as it was before. But we can all listen to the.

[D]

Number one country music song in the nation right now, which is generated by AI So it'll all be fine. It'll be fine.

[A]

That is, it's horrifying.

[B]

Well, I think, you know, to, to support the point, like the, the, the, the economy. As important as the economy being Clinton. You know, John, as you were saying, I just checked the numbers that Clinton left office with the highest final presidential approval rating in recorded history. Like, it wasn't. He beat Eisenhower by seven points. He beat Reagan by, he and Reagan were the only ones in the 60s, but Clinton was the highest ever. So that's the difference the economy makes in a second term. That's literally. He was not, you know, his, his bid to, you know, make peace in the Middle east did not succeed. Right, right before he left office, he had, you know, the, the Camp David thing collapse. He had the Monica Lewinsky stuff. He, the thing that he had, the one thing was the economy. And it made him the most popular out of all time with, just remember.

[A]

And in 2020, in 2020, there was the Internet boom bubble blew up, like in March of 2020. That was when the sort of E economy, Wall street said, wait a minute, pets.com really isn't worth a billion dollar valuation.

[D]

2000.

[A]

Not 2020, I meant 2000. I'm sorry. Right. But Clinton ended up with a high approval rating because nobody really blamed him for that, number one. Number two, they didn't muck about with approval ratings. Right. So Clinton's approval rating was for him as a working president. So they always split his personal approval from his job approval, and that had not happened before. So when Reagan left office, he was admired both for his leadership and for his personal qualities. And Clinton was not admired by the American people for his personal qualities, but they created this secondary, this kind of job approval category, which was, as I said, was a novelty and helped them navigate the world in which they could say, you see, the Republicans just aren't succeeding with this, you know, with this attack on Clinton.

[C]

But regarding Trump, it's not just John that he's in trouble. If this is an AI bubble that bursts, there is the issue of prices, and we know this is sticking because Trump has done something here that he doesn't usually do, which is he's following the Democrats on this. After the recent elections, he picked up that affordability message right away. Now, I don't know what he's going to do with it other than gimmicks, as Christine says, but if that's all he's got on this, that could be a big problem.

[A]

Look, the thing about the tariffs is that, you know, in unguarded moments, the administrator, somebody in the administration will start praising the administration for their success with the tariffs because they've raised hundreds of billions of new dollars going into government coffers and thereby, you know, shrinking the deficit. And then they drop it because, of course, what they're saying is that, that he's raised taxes, hundreds of billions of dollars. Every dollar that is collected in that way is a dollar that has been collected from an American taxpayer.

[D]

And he might have to pay it back. He might have to pay those tariffs back if he lose some of them, if he loses in front of the Supreme Court, the case that was just argued, again, the chaos, none of this stuff is sticking because he's testing the boundaries of executive power in doing it in the first place. So he might get smacked down just like Biden did with the student loan stuff.

[A]

Right. And, but, you know, that's something to look forward to, is a wonderful, fruitless 2027 with, you know, an impeachment that will go nowhere, that will, that will pass the House and will not get a two thirds vote in the Senate. And that, that'll be fun because, you know, that was, we just had such a great time during the first impeachment in 2019. Really just a very special time for America, though. It's interesting because there will be a lot of different things to choose from on the menu of the, of a Democratic Party in charge of the House. And some of them are not dismissible. I mean, the question of whether or not the Trump family is profiting personally from emoluments in the form of sovereign wealth funds of other countries personally investing in things that the Trump family is asking for. That's not, you know, that's not. Was the phone call good or bad with Zelensky?

[D]

Well, this will be the third time's a charm approach for the Democrats. If they bring, you know, it's, this will be the third. He'll be the only president impeached a third time. So.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's right. Well, he's the only president who was impeached the second time, by the way. So. So, you know, he's like Aaron Judge now. You know, Aaron Judge just won his third, his third most Valuable Player award and Trump will, you know, Trump will really be setting new records for a presidential Trump.

[B]

Trump would call it a three peat, but Phil Jackson would sue him having.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Copyrighted the word three. Pete, was it Phil Jackson or was it Pat Riley?

[B]

Wait, as Phil Jackson, I think Matt Riley.

[A]

I think it was.

[C]

I think so.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, tried to. Yeah.

[D]

Sounds like the name of a Beanie Baby.

[A]

It's not Three Pete's. No, three Pete or Three Peter or Pat Riley. Pat Riley looked a little like a Beanie Baby, actually, when you mentioned it.

[B]

I'm Oliver Darcy. And I'm John Passantino. We have spent years covering the inner workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood and power. Now through our nightly newsletter status. And we're bringing that same reporting and sharp analysis to a new podcast, Power Lines. Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest stories shaping the industry, explaining why they matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud. No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis.

[D]

That isn't afraid to call it like it is.

[B]

We also pull back the curtain via our exclusive reporting to take you behind the scenes. My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot dogs. Politics. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up. Oh, my God.

[A]

That's Power Lines presented by Status.

[B]

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[A]

So we're, we're, we're, we're shorter today than usual, but why not? We don't need to just, you know, blather on if we don't have anything much to talk about. So. Christine, you have a recommendation?

[D]

I do. I'm actually, I'm going to have for my, for my fans, for the five people who like my weird Fiction recommendations. I will have some weird fiction for you next week after I've taken a bunch of trips and have had more time to sit in airports and read. But I did. I'm, I've been dipping in and out of a recent book that I've really been enjoying and I think some of our listeners might as well. It's called the Library of Lost Maps by James Cheshire. And it is this fascinating story of a cartographer, that's James, who goes finds the map room, University College London and just is mesmerized and transported and takes us with him on this journey through all these different kinds of maps, maps that map the, the seabed floors, maps during wartime that try, you know, the terrifying maps that the Nazis used to identify ethnic groups that they would be targeting, sort of magical maps trying to imag imagine what was off the edge of the world. I mean he covers all of it. One thing I really loved about it, I guess this is a this is a twofer recommendation is that he begins the book with a quote by the wonderful Beryl Markham, who was a British aviator. She wrote a terrific memoir that came out in the 40s that, that our readers or listeners might also enjoy called west with the Night. But he begins with her description of how valuable, important, and in a way magical a map that map making is and how much trust humans place in each other when they draw maps. Because she obviously flying into these uncharted areas all the time and she had to believe that that thing, that piece of paper was honest, it was true, and it had good intention to get her from one point to the other. And she has a wonderful. He starts the book with her wonderful long discussion of maps. And he also, you know, he talks about how our relationship with maps has changed over time and our sense that they're just kind of this easy tool that's now embedded in our phone and can tell us where to go. And he really tries to restore a sense of awe and wonder about what a map really is and just what an incredible task it is to map some of these places on Earth. So it's called the Library of Lost Maps by James Cheshire. It's also a beautifully made book with lots of reproductions of some of these incredible maps. So I highly recommend.

[B]

I mean, I think every human loves old maps, right? There is something about old maps that you, if you're in a, you know, a store or, you know, you see one of these like antique type map things, it's, it's great. I mean, it looks like it makes you think of like the pirate maps, you know, that you had as a kid, stuff like that. My kids love maps and they don't have maps as part of their life, kids today, but they love maps. They love printing out and making their own maps. They love, and they love the look of, you know, if you, you can print out what looks like an old pirate map, you know, just not like a parchment. It'll look like parchment, you know, whatever. They love that stuff.

[D]

They would love.

[B]

It's almost like ingrained.

[D]

They would love this book.

[A]

Look, you know, the history of the 20th century is written in two images in some ways, which is the image of Europe in 1913 and then the image of Europe in 1922 after the, after the division of the, the planet into all kinds of new formulas and countries and stuff after the Versailles conference at the end of World War I. And you can see the next 80 years of chaos on the planet Earth from the unbelievable hubris that was created by these world powers getting together and saying, now we'll just shove the Serbs and the Croats and the. You know, into one country. And then we'll, you know, we'll. We'll assign this. You know, we'll put the. We'll put the whole chapter into this.

[D]

Yeah, he has a whole chapter that's called Manipulative Maps, which is, I think, probably one of the most powerful in the whole book. And it gets into that for. For that era, but also all around the world in different eras, how that map making led to geopolitical conflict for decades in various regions.

[C]

Can I add an interesting.

[B]

It's like a. It's like a wedding seating map.

[C]

I have an interesting. I have an interesting fact about old map makers. They would add what's called trap streets to their maps. These are small, fictional streets that don't actually exist in the territory in order to catch competitors infringing on their copyrights if they included. Is that great?

[A]

That is so great.

[B]

But weren't people getting lost by following a few.

[A]

Well.

[D]

That'S the metaphor for so many things. That's so great.

[A]

Yeah, that's like my single favorite book. Book detail. One of my great. The great sort of anecdotes of, you know, famous people in relation to each other is that William F. Buckley, Jr. Wrote a book and sent it to Norman Mailer. And the one thing that he did in this book is that in the index next to Norman Mailer's name, he wrote the word hi because he knew that the first thing that Mailer would do is turn to the index and see if he was mentioned in the book. So that's sort of like the traps. I know what you're doing. As we say to our.

[D]

That's an ego trap street right there.

[A]

Oh, there you go. Ego trap street. That's perfect. Okay, so the name of the book again by James Cheshire, is the Library of Lost Maps. Okay, fantastic recommendation, everybody. Have a wonderful weekend. We'll be back on Monday. For Abe, Seth, and Christine, I'm John Pothorotz. Keep the camel burning. It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help.

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