Mamdani's Evil

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast

Episode: Mamdani’s Evil
Date: November 21, 2025
Panel: Jon Podhoretz (host), John Podhoretz, Abe Greenwald, Christine Rosen, Eliana Johnson, Eli Lake

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the response of Zoran Mamdani, New York City's mayor-elect, to a recent anti-Israel, anti-Semitic protest at Park East Synagogue and explores the implications of his position for Jewish life in New York and American political culture. The panel expresses deep concern about Mamdani's conflation of Jewish immigration to Israel with violations of international law, which they see as a clear expression of anti-Semitism reminiscent of historical and modern persecutions. The discussion then expands to the broader dangers of radical political ideology and the necessity of fighting back—politically and communally—against rising antisemitism and chaos politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: The Park East Synagogue Protest

[01:26 – 03:14]

• Protesters, masked and “a foot from the door,” screamed intimidating, anti-Jewish chants at a synagogue meeting organized by Nefesh B’Nefesh (a group aiding Jewish immigration to Israel).
• The mayor-elect’s office issued a statement discouraging the protesters’ language but claiming the synagogue’s event "violated international law."

“He believes every New Yorker should be free to enter a house of worship without intimidation and that these sacred spaces should not be used to promote activities in violation of international law.” —Abe Greenwald quoting Mamdani's spokeswoman [03:24]

2. Denunciation of Mamdani’s Statement

[03:49 – 09:32]

• The panel sees Mamdani’s tepid criticism of the protest as “the mildest possible,” while equating Jewish immigration to Israel with illegality as “monstrous” and deeply antisemitic.

“This is anti-Semitism, pure and simple... There is no people on earth who are denied the right to move wherever it is they wish to move... The mayor of New York City's spokesman is describing the act of Jewish immigration to Israel as a violation of international law. He is a disgusting monster. This is monstrous behavior. This is Nazi behavior.” —Jon Podhoretz [06:53 – 09:32]

• Christine Rosen broadens the historical context: “It's not just Nazis. It goes back centuries... prescribed areas where Jews could live.” [09:32]

3. The Anti-Semitic Logic & Its Continuities

[10:19–12:24]

• The panel traces the notion of restricting Jewish movement (“ghetto,” “dhimmi status,” “Judenrein”) from medieval Europe and Islamic empires to today’s progressive anti-Zionist ideology.
• Rosen and J. Podhoretz emphasize that such logic is both ancient and tragically revived in current events.

4. Mamdani’s Record and DSA Ties

[12:24 – 16:28]

• Abe Greenwald recounts Mamdani’s unwavering anti-Israel activism from college (Students for Justice in Palestine) to DSA speeches and post-Oct 7th events.

“This is the through line of Mamdani's political career... He will not compromise on Israel and the Jews.” —Abe Greenwald [13:27]

• DSA’s celebration of the Oct 7 attacks led to resignations, but “guess who doesn’t leave? Zoran Mamdani.” —Christine Rosen [15:16]

5. Failure of Leadership, Legal Avenues, and Encouragement to Fight Back

[16:28 – 21:08]

• Jon Podhoretz laments the mayor-elect’s refusal to plainly condemn anti-Semitic intimidation and instead referencing “international law,” calling it “an insane thing to say.” He corrects himself noting federal law (FACE Act) is usable against interference at houses of worship.

“It was very important... not that he said that he discourages the language. It’s that he said the meeting inside the synagogue... violated international law.” —Jon Podhoretz [16:28]

• Eliana Johnson: “Litigation, prosecution is actually a tool that should be used a great deal more enthusiastically right now against these organized groups... uncovering their financing, some of which is probably foreign.” [20:02]

6. What Should New York Jews Do? Leave or Fight?

[23:03 – 27:03]

• Podhoretz argues forcefully that Jews must not flee New York: “No Jew should move out of New York... Every time he makes a move, we've got to open a mouth and scream and fight and yell... If Jews leave, they will make it easier for him to succeed.” [23:03]
• The notion of staying, making noise, and defending the community is presented as a moral necessity.

7. The Future of NYC Politics & DSA Radicalism

[27:03 – 31:07]

• Eliana Johnson likens Mamdani's two-faced approach to “the political equivalent of a mullet. All business up front, in the back he's partying with people who want to drive the Jews out of New York.” [27:32]
• Christine Rosen: DSA is “this close to domestic terrorism” and will hold Mamdani to maximal radical standards. Even his “wins” with the left inflame their appetite for purity.

8. Fringe Politics and Democratic Socialists of America

[31:07 – 34:27]

• J. Podhoretz puts DSA numbers in perspective (80,000 nationally) compared to Hadassah’s 300,000, framing Mamdani’s anti-Israel hard-left politics as still “fringe.”

“Mamdani's views remain fringe views. If the Democratic Party wants to go down this road... it is gonna run hard into what Trump is likely to do today.” —Jon Podhoretz [33:19]

9. Protest Culture, Chaos, and Mainstream Reaction

[34:27 – 36:44]

• Abe Greenwald: “There's an aspect of just chaos culture, and Trump campaigned against that. Momdani is the protesting campus lunatic... For the average New Yorker, it's do you like marauding bands of protesters in the streets?” [34:27]

10. Self-Defense and Community Resilience

[36:44 – 42:51]

• Christine Rosen advocates, half-seriously, for Jewish self-defense groups akin to the Guardian Angels and other communal organizations, to “meet intimidation with united resolve.” [36:44, 37:39]
• Podhoretz and others note that synagogues already have substantial security and self-defense groups, but a greater spirit of resolve and presence is needed.

11. Philanthropy and Jewish Giving

[42:01 – 42:44]

• Discussion of the role for increased Jewish giving in supporting community security—not just professional guards but member involvement.

12. Broader National & Right-Wing Culture Wars

[45:22 – 54:17]

• The conversation pivots to right-wing racism, Nick Fuentes, identity politics, public discourse, and Tucker Carlson’s reactionary influence.

“If you create identity politics, you are creating white identity politics.” —Jon Podhoretz [50:54]

13. Neglected Topics & Recommendations

[63:13 – End]

• Christine Rosen recommends “Midnight Time: A Novel and Ghost Stories” by Bora Chung.
• Eli Lake plugs his latest “Breaking History” podcast episodes.
• Jon Podhoretz commends Barton Swaim’s “Tucker Carlson’s Bible Study” in the Wall Street Journal.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mamdani's Response:

  “This is the through line of Mamdani's political career... he will not compromise on Israel and the Jews.” —Abe Greenwald [13:27]

• On the Hallmark of Anti-Semitic Logic:

  “The prescription of Jewish freedom of movement on the planet Earth 80 years after the Holocaust... This is monstrous behavior. This is Nazi behavior.” —Jon Podhoretz [09:32]

• On Jewish Community’s Response:

  “No Jew should move out of New York... Every time he makes a move, we've got to open a mouth and scream and fight and yell. And this is the defense [for staying].” —Jon Podhoretz [23:03]

• On DSA Radicalism:

  “They're this close to domestic terrorism. They're this close. They have the hammer and sickle in their social media. They love the intifada.” —Christine Rosen [28:03]

• On Protest Chaos:

  “…For the average New Yorker, it's do you like marauding bands of protesters in the streets… gross, dirty, masked, waving signs, loud, annoying, and obnoxious… People don't like that and we don't like our kids to see it.” —Abe Greenwald [35:00]

• On the Fight for NYC:

  “We shouldn't leave. We can't cede this. And the thing to do is to fight back. And the one way of fighting back is not to move to Florida... say, oh yeah, you think we're neurasthenic little munchkins? Don't think so fast.” —Jon Podhoretz [42:51]

• On Fringe Political Influence:

  “Mamdani's views remain fringe views. If the Democratic Party wants to go down this road... it is gonna run hard into what Trump is likely to do today.” —Jon Podhoretz [33:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:26 – 03:14]: Details of the Park East Synagogue protest and Mamdani’s spokesperson’s statement
• [06:53 – 09:32]: Jon Podhoretz’s denunciation of the anti-Semitic logic in Mamdani’s response
• [13:25 – 16:28]: Mamdani’s radical history and unmoved stance post–October 7th
• [20:02 – 21:08]: On the use of federal law (FACE Act) to prosecute anti-Semitic protestors
• [23:03 – 27:03]: Should Jews leave New York? Why standing and fighting is necessary
• [27:32]: "Political equivalent of a mullet" and Mamdani's two-faced strategy
• [34:27]: Protest culture, chaos, and its rejection by ordinary citizens
• [36:44]: Proposals for Jewish self-defense and community organization
• [42:01]: Philanthropy and supporting communal security
• [50:54]: Dangers of identity politics creating its own oppositional identity
• [63:13]: Book and podcast recommendations

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Tone & Style

The panelists speak passionately, with a mix of exasperation, dark humor, and resolve. The language is urgent, sometimes polemical, with rhetorical flourishes and historical analogies. Familiarity with Jewish history and political debates is assumed, but arguments are presented forcefully and with clarifying examples.

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Conclusion

This episode is a stark warning that rising antisemitism, when countenanced by political leaders, must be met with clarity, activism, and communal solidarity. The panel rejects resignation or flight in favor of determined resistance—both in civic life and political debate. They highlight the necessity of legal, philanthropic, and grassroots responses to both protect Jewish life and defend liberal norms from fringe radicalism. Ultimately, the message is one of engagement, courage, and the defense of communal and civic values.

Transcript

[John Podhoretz]

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[Jon Podhoretz]

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[Christine Rosen]

Hope for the best, expect the worst Some preacher pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing which way it's going Hope for the best Expect the.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Worst Hope for the best. Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Friday, November 21, 2025. I'm Jon Podhortz, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[John Podhoretz]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Washington Free Beacon editor, Eliana Johnson. Hi, Eliana.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Social Commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.

[Eliana Johnson]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

And joining us today, Commentary contributing editor, host of the Breaking History podcast, Eli Lake. Hi, Eli.

[Christine Rosen]

Great to be back, John. Thank you for having me.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, I'm sorry to have you on today because not because we have to have you on today, but because we have to. There's various pretty grim things we have to talk about. Yesterday, Zoran Mamdani, Today the mayor elect visiting Trump at the White House, made a statement or had his spokesman make a statement about the event we discussed yesterday on Wednesday night, where the Park East Synagogue on 67th street in Manhattan was the site of an anti Israel, anti Semitic masked protest in which the protesters were standing a foot from the door of the synagogue, screaming, we need, we want you to be afraid. Let's make them scared. A bunch of other things. In response to the fact that there was a meeting going on inside the synagogue to provide congregants with information provided by a group called Nefesh B'. Nefesh. Nefesh Be' Nefesh is a, is a, is a part of the Jewish Agency. It is a program designed to help people understand what it would mean if they wished to make aliyah and move to Israel. And that that was the, that was the reason the protest was taking place was to protest Nefesh Ben Nefesh's appearance inside this synagogue. And in response yesterday, Zoran Mamdani's spokesman said, yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

The Mamdani spokeswoman said the mayor elect has discouraged the language used at last night's protest and will continue to do so. He believes every New Yorker should be free to enter a house of worship without intimidation and that these sacred Spaces should not be used to promote activities in violation of international law. So, you know, bad people on both sides.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Okay, but we need to go into. We need to, like, forget the. He's discouraged the language thing, because I don't know where he discouraged the language. I mean, he discouraged saying globalize the intifada. One phrase that was used, but that he is discouraged. Or he said, I would not use that phrase.

[Christine Rosen]

I would not use the phrase the south will rise again. I personally offended by the stars and bars flag. And I do think that we should understand. It's not the way I would say it, but at the same time, these race mixers need to understand that we live in a white country. That's what he's saying, right?

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, it is. To Eli's point, it is the mildest possible criticism of the people saying, let's scare them. As you know, he discourages that. On the other hand, a violation of international law is taking place.

[Christine Rosen]

I wouldn't say it that way.

[Abe Greenwald]

Eliana Synagogue.

[Christine Rosen]

I wouldn't say we have to scare the Jews. I would just say, you know, from the river to the sea. I wouldn't go that far.

[Eliana Johnson]

It also matters that he did not speak these words himself. He did it through a spokesperson. He could have immediately taken to social media and made a statement. He could have done a number of things directly that would have showed he actually meant to discourage it by actively having those words come in his mouth saying, I don't.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I don't even care whether. I don't even care whether he's discouraging it or not. I want us go to the second part of the statement about the fact that the event taking place inside the synagogue violated international.

[Abe Greenwald]

And that part is clear as day.

[Jon Podhoretz]

This is anti Semitism, pure and simple. Let me explain why, if I have to Nefesh be' nefesh provides information and guidance to American Jews and probably Jews in other countries. I don't know how they function in other countries on technically how they would move to Israel if they wish to move to Israel, how they do it, how you file paperwork when you get to Israel to attain your citizenship. There's a job bank or a pond to learn Hebrew. Yeah, it is a. Here, let's take you by the hand. If you want to do this, there is a process by which you can do it that we will expose to you. I'm unaware of any international law, even the worst international law on the planet earth that says that it is a violation of international law for a Jew to move to Israel.

[Eliana Johnson]

Can I add. Or for anyone, can I add to that? Sorry to interrupt, but even if there was something in international law that said that what he said was also un American, because the United States does not subscribe to these, like the International Criminal Court, all of these different organizations that claim to practice.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Even if it did, even if it did, their argument is that since Nefesh be Nefesh, I don't even want to call it an argument because it is literally not.

[Christine Rosen]

It's a slit. There's slander.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Nefesh says, here's how you move to Israel. And you might, if you were somebody moving to Israel, you might say, live in a neighborhood of East Jerusalem called Gilo, which some people believe is a. Because it is across the Green Line, the armistice line of 1949 should be Palestinian, considered Palestinian land. And that therefore, if you move there, you are in violation of the idea that eventually this part of the Holy Land will be given over to Palestinians and no Jew should live there. However, that is not Nefesh be Nefesh's writ or mission. It's simply how do you move to Israel? And secondly, why it is anti Semitic is where does it say in international law? Where does it stay in the Democratic Socialists of America? Where does it say anywhere that Jews are not allowed to live wherever they want to on the planet Earth? Are Jews the only people on earth who are given prescribed places that they are allowed to live. Otherwise, if they move there, they are in violation of international law. Even if you accept the IDEA that Resolution 242, that that that sort of ended the conflict in 1967, says that Israel's proper border should be the 1967 border. It does not say that a Jew is not allowed to live on the West Bank. No one on earth has ever said that this plot of land, this corner, this acre, this square foot, has to be Juden Rhine. Judenrein is a Nazi concept. It is the idea that it is okay to ban Jewish presence. And you can do that either by banning it outright or. Or by murdering them. It doesn't matter which. There is no people on earth who are denied the right to move wherever it is that they wish to move. Local law can, obviously you can have restrictive immigration policies in different countries and those countries could exclude Jews. But that is not what we are talking about here. The mayor of New York City's spokesman is describing the act of Jewish immigration to Israel as a violation of international law. He is a disgusting monster. This is monstrous behavior. This is Nazi behavior. I don't know how Else to describe it. The prescription of Jewish freedom of movement on the planet Earth 80 years after the Holocaust.

[Christine Rosen]

Well, okay, I would say it's not just Nazis. It goes back centuries.

[John Podhoretz]

The.

[Christine Rosen]

This is the. Under various times under the Holy Roman Empire, there were prescribed areas where Jews could live. Yeah.

[Jon Podhoretz]

They were called ghettos.

[Christine Rosen]

That's where the word ghetto comes under. The, by the way, more appropriate maybe for amdani under the Islamic Empire was known as dhimmi status. And there were certain areas where you couldn't live. So this goes back centuries. And part of what begins to happen, you could say after Napoleon's conquest of Europe, is that Jews are no longer second class citizens where they were told they can only live in certain places. You're absolutely right. And obviously it reaches this kind of awful apogee under the Nazis. But I mean, it's, it's outrageous.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Okay, so you make a good point. That was sort of like going, but. But, yeah. So ghettos. The term ghetto refers to the neighborhood in Venice where Jews were obliged to go back after working. And then there were gates and they were locked in for the night. And there were ghettos there. There were ghettos all over Europe. But I'm talking about postmodern. Right. You mentioned the Napoleonic Code. Post, not postmodern, but, you know, post medieval, beginning with the Enlightenment and all of that. Again, where we live now in 2025, there is not a people on earth that is told by anybody. I'm sorry, but you are not, you must, you are not allowed to set foot on X piece of land.

[John Podhoretz]

Mamdani believes that the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is a crime. That's his problem. This is why he never ever said, yes, I believe it can exist as a Jewish state. Stephen Colbert, you know, tried to smooth that over for him successfully, apparently. So that's what I took this to mean.

[Christine Rosen]

Right.

[Jon Podhoretz]

But just to follow along with that, he says he believes that Israel has the right to exist as a state.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So as a state, a Jew from America could move to Zoran Mamdani's Israel. If you, if you follow the logic here, if Israel is allowed to exist as a state, but should change its character from being a Jewish state to, to being a multinational state. Jews would still be allowed to live in Hebron if they wanted to.

[John Podhoretz]

But making aliyah is part of it being a Jewish state. I don't want. It's all Nazi logic.

[Jon Podhoretz]

It doesn't matter. Like you can, you can. I mean, it is. I mean, you're right. I'm not Denying that. I'm saying, logically speaking, yeah, a Jew can make aliyah to a multinational state called Israel that isn't specifically a Jewish state.

[John Podhoretz]

I just want to say you guys.

[Abe Greenwald]

Are splitting hairs though. I mean, we all understand. Understood exactly what she meant and what he meant. And it goes back to Mamdani's college days where he was the president of the chapter of the, you know, the founder and president of the Students for Justice in Palestine chapter. And he refused to partner with the most left wing Jewish student groups because they supported the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Even though, and I'm not even sure they supported it as a Jewish state, they just supported the existence of Israel. But this was, you know, Jewish Voice for Peace and J Street back when Mamandani was a college student. This was revealed, by the way, in the New York Times article. That was the only good reporting the New York Times did on the Mamdani race during the race. And so this is the central political belief of Zohran Mamdani.

[John Podhoretz]

The animating political belief.

[Abe Greenwald]

The animating belief. And it is the through line of Mamdani's political career. So while he will compromise and allow Jessica Tisch to be police chief, he will not compromise on Israel and the Jews. And then you recall in the glow up that a Stead Herndon did of him, he knocked the progressive belief or the progressive allowance of pro Israel Democrats in the coalition and referred to them as progressive except Palestine.

[Christine Rosen]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

And said that is not okay with him.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I just say.

[John Podhoretz]

John, yesterday you said the question is, what we don't know yet is how Mamdani is going to react to such events as what happened in Park East. Now we know, I mean, we could have predicted, but the answer is in this is how it's going to be.

[Christine Rosen]

And just to add on to what Eliana was saying, it's not just when he's a college student that he forms the Students for Justice from Palestine. Right before October 7, 2023, he gives a speech of the DSA which he says explicitly, the reason I joined DSA is because when I became politically active in the 2000 teens, back when he was a SoundCloud rapper defending the Holy Land 5, the only organization that supported the boycott, divestment and sanction of Israel was the DSA. And what's more is that after October 7, after the New York chapter of DSA and all the chapters of DSA celebrated the carnage and the murder and kidnapping and rape spree of Jews as this blessed act of resistance and they all started celebrating and having protest about how wonderful it was. Lots of DSA members left, if you remember, including Sarah Silverman, some of the original members of dsa, Maurice Isserman, who is the biographer of Michael Harrington, the founder of dsa. They leave their vicious. Not vicious, I would say. There were very poignant and accurate letters of resignation saying we can no longer be part of an organization that conflates resistance to empire with aligning with theocratic fascists who are murderous. Guess who doesn't leave? Zoran Mamdani. And guess what he shows up at like, you know, 10 days after he shows up at one of these DSA Israel rallies, Ceasefire now and all the rest. So he can make these little distinctions on the head of a pin about how he wouldn't use this language or that language. But we already know who he is. This is the defining issue for him. He thought October 7th was resistance and he has never explained otherwise.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So that's what's important about what you're saying here. Is Abu Said like this, you know, we didn't know and now we know. This was a layup. Yeah, right. People screaming at Jews outside a synagogue saying, you know, we want you to be scared. There's an event going on inside the synagogue, they're attempting to disrupt. You're the incoming mayor of New York. You say hate has no place in our city. I believe in the right to protest, but this is not the time or the place. And I will enforce the law. That's all you have to say. It was very important. The thing that's important about this statement is not that he said that he discourages the language. It's that he said that the meeting inside the synagogue, which is none of his effing business, violated international law. Which is, by the way, an insane thing to say. Cuz that would mean, as far as I'm concerned, I think that Democratic Socialists of America violate international law because they, because they provide material support to terrorism. But that doesn't mean that I would have the right to stand in front and like try to impede access. Now, I made a mistake yesterday and I wanna thank our listener, Ari Fishkin, for supporting Christine and Abe and, and, and providing the information that shows that I made a mistake when I said, what are you supposed to do? It's a sidewalk. It's in New York City. Local laws mean that, you know, as long as you don't actually physically impede someone going in, what are they supposed to do? What are the New York City cops supposed to do? Well, there, that may or may not be the case. There is, in fact, federal law. There is existing federal law. And what's more, it's being applied in a case where there was a protest in New Jersey against a Nefesh b' Nefesh meeting at a synagogue. So let me read from the Associated Press. Federal officials have sued pro Palestinian demonstrators involved in a heated protest outside a New Jersey synagogue last year, citing a law created to protect abortion clinics from obstruction and threats. Harmeet Dhillon, who heads the U.S. justice Department Civil Rights Division, said the lawsuit filed against two pro Palestinian groups appears to be the first time the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances act has been used against protesters outside a house of worship. This was a Nov. 13, 2024 demonstration outside Congregation Or Torah in West Orange, 20 miles west of Manhattan. It was a real estate fair that promoted the sale of homes in Israel and in settlements in the occupied west bank, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so in fact, in federal law, there is a provision in the literal piece of legislation that was designed to make sure that you could not impede people's access to abortion clinics that extends that, making it illegal to impede access to houses of worship. So I assume that we will hear today that Harmeet Dhillon, in some fashion or other, or somebody at the Justice Department in the next week, is going to announce that there will be action taken similar to this by the Justice Department, as it is an open and shut version of exactly the same thing. So I apologize to Abe and Christine for my despairing reading that there was nothing that you could possibly do about this.

[Eliana Johnson]

You know, litigation, prosecution is actually a tool that should be used a great deal more enthusiastically right now against these organized groups because as we've seen in cases over the past several years, in particular Students for Justice in Palestine being chapters of that at various campus organizations, the minute investigators actually start looking into the financing and makeup of these groups, many of which people suspect, probably correctly, are getting foreign government money sent to them that they are in violation of all kinds of laws. And so the minute there's a case, they settle. And they settle because the process of discovery would reveal a whole lot of stuff that they don't want made public. And I think in these cases, whoever is funding and supporting these sorts of protests because they are organized, those sorts of investigations, those sorts of prosecutions, both at the local, state and federal level. And Hartmeet Dhillon is doing God's work in a lot of prosecutions in this case. That is important because exposing the underlying infrastructure is one of the ways in which people can fight back against even the Zoran Mamdanis of the world.

[Jon Podhoretz]

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[Christine Rosen]

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[Jon Podhoretz]

So I think it's good that today's the day that Trump is meeting Mamdani because he was reminded, and we have all been reminded of what the stakes are here and the stakes are for. Let's just say Abe and me, we live in New York City. The three of you do not. And you know, people are having these conversations about whether to stay in New York City under Mamdani. If you are Jewish, will your kids be safe? What is it going to be like going to synagogue? Like, I go to synagogue three times a month and you know, synagogue's right there on the street and who knows what'll happen. And Abe was talking about, you know, whether or not Jews need to arm themselves in self defense. And it's a little easier than it used to be here in New York. So maybe should do that. Looking at this brings up my ornery side and says to me, no Jew should move out of New York. Because it is a little like your DSA, your story here, which is you say, okay, DSA says it celebrates or welcomes the October 7th attacks. And then Maurice Isserman and various other people resign and protest. And you're like, great, they resign and protest. It really is terrible. Maybe they shouldn't resign in protest. Stay and fight, Go to the convention, introduce resolutions at the DSA that say, we do not support anti Semitic actions against Jews as part of an idea about resistance. What about doing that? Why are you ceding. Are we going to cede the conservative movement to Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes? No. Can we cede New York City to Zoran Mamdani, who only won 50% of the vote? Remember, and this is an important detail, because it sounds like it's a horrifying thing that he got 50% of the vote. But his predecessors, Bill de Blasio and Eric Adams, each got more than 70% of the vote. He did not get a huge mandate. Andrew Cuomo, the least popular politician on the planet Earth, got 41% of the vote on election day. Bom Donnie won a commanding victory, without question. But the city is not his city. The city is not in his pocket. The city is not his. You know, he is not going to stand on a pile of. You know, he's not going to stand and sing. You know, if I can make it here, I'll make it anywhere. He has to prove himself. He only got half the votes. Next time he runs. If he runs next time. And the opposition toward him consolidates, he's got a hill to climb. And if Jews leave, they will make it easier for him to succeed. Because every time he makes a move, we've got to open a mouth and scream and fight and yell. And this is the defense of Jessica Tisch, staying on as police commissioner in this sense, which is okay. He said he wants her as police commissioner. Well, she has two ways to go about this, one of which is to do her job as police commissioner as she sees fit to, and then let's see where the chips fall. Is he gonna tell her to pull back, to stand down, not to. Not to. Not to prosecute this, not to do that, not to arrest people in front of a. You know, who are. Who are disturbing the peace in front of a synagogue, at which point she is then in a position either to disobey his order or resign at that point by saying, I cannot countenance the evil that the mayor is doing.

[Eliana Johnson]

He. But he. So this is actually, I think his victory party after, on the night of the election is indicative of what he's going to try to do and I think fail at doing. And that's, I mean, he's, he's, you know, he tries to look serious and say the right to have a spokesperson say this kind of word salad thing after, after a protest. But, you know, he's the, he's like the political equivalent of a mullet. He's all business up front, but in the back he's partying with people who absolutely want to drive the Jews out of New York City. And so I think. Sorry.

[Christine Rosen]

And I just saw what a great image.

[Jon Podhoretz]

That was fantastic.

[Eliana Johnson]

But he, but I do think he is trying. And AOC did a version of this and her constituents are not super happy with her about it, but he's really embracing this idea that he can keep those people very close and very satisfied and give them all those signals that they want to have while also doing a few things to placate the moderate voter who is concerned about the radicalism.

[Christine Rosen]

It will not work, by the way.

[Eliana Johnson]

Right.

[Christine Rosen]

I mean, we should mention that AOC was nearly kicked out of the DSA because she voted for like Iron Dome or she didn't vote against. It was like one of these, like incredible, like, if any, if you don't toe the exact line. Because the leadership of the dsa, both nationally and particularly in New York, it's been taken over by, by like, you know, a combination of the Weather Underground and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. They're basically like domestic. They're like this close to domestic terrorism. They're this close. They have the hammer and sickle in their social media. They love the intifada. And so they're gonna be looking and to hold him accountable. They love to use that language. And so whatever he does, even this was a, this is a, by the way, this is a win for the anti Semitic left. The statement from worse, it's a huge win for them. And there she is. What's her name? Nurdine Kiswani, the, you know, within our lifetime woman. She is saying, how dare you capitulate. They're going to just. That's what the DSA is going to do. And we'll see who he is because there's a potential. I mean, listen, I don't think. I think he's a true believer. I think he's a bad actor. But it's possible that the socialists are so meshuggahna. That they could push him in this position where, like, they're gonna start trying to expel him from the party because they just love their purity. That's. I think that's a real possibility. My colleague Olivia Rheingold thinks that.

[John Podhoretz]

But so.

[Christine Rosen]

But I know it's. So what? He's still bad. I understand. Yeah, but it's a little bit of a psyop because they're gonna make it. He's gonna use that then to say, see, I mean, like, to John's point.

[John Podhoretz]

I just wanna get to John's point about how this was a layup and this is the direction he chose instead of going with the bland, vague. Could have even. Could have even chose to enrage us by saying anti Semitism and Islamophobia have no place in the city. You know, even that, wasn't this what he chose to do instead of is summon a hate storm? This is his first statement about this such thing. And he's saying this is how it's gonna go. All my all you shock troops out there, have you ever heard a New York City mayor respond to an anti Semitic incident by claiming what's going on inside the synagogue is in violation of international law? No, I did. I'm your guy. Bring it on. I've got your back. That's what this is. And I just want to bring up one more point. I love that everyone always had been saying during the election, why are they asking him about Israel? Why are they asking him about a foreign country? He's the mayor of. He's running to be the mayor of New York City. Why don't they ask him about New York City? His first response to an episode in New York City is to bring up Israel and international law.

[Jon Podhoretz]

You know, I just looked this up. So let's talk about the Democratic Socialists of America for a minute. And if you haven't listened to Eli's fantastic podcast on the dsa, you should go to the Breaking History feed and listen to it and be enlightened about the history of this very odd organization. But here's the thing. He's a Democrat, so he didn't want to leave. They're all celebrating and all of that. And it is very dangerous how the views of this fringe group have now essentially moved the Overton window of the Democratic Party have become part and parcel of what we think of as the vanguard. We'll see what the 2028 Democratic platform is like, how similar it is to certain elements of the Democratic Socialists of America agenda. But here's the thing. According to the Democratic Socialists of America, there are somewhere between nationwide, in a country of 330 million people, 59,000 to 80,000 members of the DSA. Now, that number will certainly go up because of Mamdani's victory. 80,000 people nationwide. Hadassah, which is a. Which is the Jewish fraternal women's organization. And as a shadow of its former self, it used to be a very important American communal organization and as much worldwide Jewish organization, much, much less so. Because of course, we don't really divide into the women's groups and the men's groups and all of that. Hadassah still has 300,000 paying members. Right? Democratic Social of America can draw from everybody in the United States. ADASA draws from 5.8 million Jews in the United States, of whom 300,000 are members. Democratic Socialists, out of 330 million people, 80,000. Mamdani's views remain fringe views. These are fringe, fringe, fringy views. If the Democratic Party wants to go down this road and assume that this is the wave of the future, which I think it is going to, it is gonna run hard into what Trump is likely to do today. Again, I'm talking about this like you may be listening to this after they have the meeting. And maybe I'll be disproved, which is gonna bring him in and say, I'm really upset you're a communist. I don't like having a communist as mayor of New York City. That's everything that I oppose and I hate. You want to seize the means of production. You want to take away private property rights. You want to have. You want to have state run grocery stores. You know what? That's not America. And you're a little twerp. And why don't you shine my shoes or whatever it is that he'll do.

[Christine Rosen]

Get your shine box.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah, okay, so you take all that. Who's got America's, who's who will. Who reflects the American view more of what America should be like the hated Trump or the glowing young vanguard leader Mamdani?

[Abe Greenwald]

Just to make one point on that. It's not just when you say these are fringe views. It's not just the antisemitism stuff. There's an aspect of just chaos culture, and Trump campaigned against that. Mom, Donnie is the protesting campus lunatic, you know, the founder of Students for Justice in Palestine. That was the group that was leading all these insane post October 7th campus protests that Trump campaigned against. The DSA, like these are protest people causing chaos all over urban Centers in the country. And like the question is I think less for Jews of course, it's like do you tolerate, do you like anti Semitism or not? Like that's an easy question but for the average New Yorker it's do you like marauding bands of protesters in the streets waving signs and on your, on your sidewalks and disrupting your life, you know, with people's faces covered and you know, these marauding bands of people in the streets. And I think the 2024 election answered that question pretty definitively. People don't like these sorts of chaotic disruptions. And by the way, you know John, when you said Abe and I live in New York and we have to deal with this. Well, Christine and Eli and I live in D.C. where the federal troops have been deployed and we have lot less crime and things are a lot more orderly and people generally like that. And so I think that's, that's the other facet of this because I, you know, I am pessimistic and I do think the, the antisemitism message just has a much more limited audience. I think people don't care that much unfortunately about that. But people do care about chaos, protest, disruptions to their lives when they're trying, you know, people are trying to walk up and down New York City streets to go to dinner with their families and these people are gross and dirty and masked and waving signs and loud and annoying and obnoxious and you know, we don't like that and we don't like our kids to see it.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Fair enough.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I throw an idea out? And I'm not sure I think I support this along the lines of what Abe said yesterday. Can the Jewish community take a page from like a kind of combination of Curtis Lewis and the Guardian Angels and then Betar. I don't wanna throw in the JDL at this point cause they were bad and did a lot of other stuff but like form self defense groups for synagogues. Why can't there be like a young men who know that these protests are coming.

[John Podhoretz]

They are.

[Christine Rosen]

Like show up and say like you know what? Make way. If the cops aren't gonna do it, make way, get outta here. And they just. And you know, we're not pushovers and I'm not saying there should be. I don't want any physical violence of course, but these people are there to. They say we want to make them afraid. Okay, well I want to make you afraid.

[Eliana Johnson]

Well it's meeting intimidation with united resolve and that's actually having people escorted.

[Christine Rosen]

Exactly. I want to make you afraid.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Eli. Eli, first of all. So now, once burned, you know, twice shy. I don't think you will see in New York City that there will not be a sort of civilian phalanx outside synagogues when they have meetings inside synagogues from now on. I mean, just to give you an example, my synagogue had an event. We had our commentary roast in October. The Israeli comedian Yochai Spander appeared at the, at the event, and then two days later he appeared at the synagogue that I am a congregant at. 400 people showed up, was, you know, wasn't advertised really. It was something shul did. I think if this were, if, if Yoh Ponder was to show up at our, at our synagogue next week, we'd be having a meeting about what to do to defend the shul against protesters against him now. So. And most synagogues in New York have a, you know, sort of block association. They have congregants who are standing for. They have security. Jewish communities raised a lot of money to secure synagogues have guards, stuff like that. You know, in this case, the cops were there, but they were, they were there deployed to protect, prevent clashes between the Jews who were in front and the, and the protesters who were there. In Borough park in Brooklyn, in the places where Jews have been visible, Jews have been attacked over the last five years repeatedly for having kipot or, you know, having beards or having hats or having tzitzit or whatever. There are self defense organizations, Right. You mentioned the Jewish Defense League. Jewish Defense League, which started in Brooklyn in The, in the mid-60s, was started literally as a community sort of civil defense organization. Because crime, right. In 1964, when crime started getting really bad, old people were getting mugged and so people started patrolling the streets. But then JDL became a more rapid.

[Christine Rosen]

I don't want to try to kidnap Soviet ambassadors or something. I want to do that.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah, no, no, no, but I'm saying, but I'm saying it started out as that and like all, like, like many things that then it, it took the coloration of its increasingly radical.

[Eliana Johnson]

But I think what, what Eli's saying, though, there's a version. I mean, I'm thinking of like every time, Remember every time Jesse Jackson went somewhere, the Nation of Islam, people would escort him. Like there was a kind of, it was just like a guard, like a praetorian guard almost, that would just walk with whoever was doing. I mean, there, there is. And again, that's just. They don't, they're not. You don't have to carry a Weapon. You don't even have to say anything. You just form a human corridor and you stand there and you get people in and out. And it is a statement, again, it's a statement of we will not be intimidated and we will not allow you to bar access to our houses of worship. And you can stand there and scream. These guys are going to stand there and just, you know, impasse.

[Christine Rosen]

By the way, by the way, it's open. Another benefit of it. And I'm just saying if we're worried about kind of listless men in Gen Z getting sucked into a nihilistic Internet, you know, kind of black hole, this is a very great, this is a really good way to give a sense of purpose, an important job to, you know, a young college grad that maybe isn't having success on the job market and doesn't have everything together. This is a great way to kind of bring people into community as opposed to just sort of, you know, letting them, you know, dement themselves as so many young men do. And I think they're Jewish. I mean, I'm working on, I'm trying to find the Jewish Grover, by the way. And apparently they exist. So I'm trying to. This is my white whale at this point, journalistically. But my point is, is that like, you know, there's. It's a problem that affects lots of young men in particular. This is a great way to kind of bring them into the community, give them a sense of purpose. You know, maybe they meet a girl. There's a lot of benefit from it.

[John Podhoretz]

One more point about this. You know, we've discussed a lot, especially in the pages of Commentary, Jewish giving, Jewish philanthropy.

[Christine Rosen]

Yeah.

[John Podhoretz]

This is, this is, this is an area to invest.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, it's even a lot of money, to be fair. An enormous amount of money has gone into securing.

[Christine Rosen]

No, no, that's different. No, no, this is different. A lot of money has gone into paying ex police officers to. And I know our JCC has a wonderful security system, but that's like paying professionals.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Christine Rosen]

Because the assumption is that the Jews who attend these institutes, go to these institutions, are not going to, you know, sign up and volunteer to do security.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah. This is like they're frail Ashkenaz, who are like, you know, walking in and not going to. This is. Defend yourself.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Christine Rosen]

Different kind of.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Anyway. Yeah, well, there's more of it than you realize. And then we'll see what, we'll, we'll see what happens going forward. Because if the Jewish community understands. This is where. Jessica, it gets interesting with Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch, my former intern. She was my intern, I just want to point out, was my intern at the New York Post 25 years ago. And she was great. So I'm not surprised. She's a good police commissioner. But Jesse Tisch, if the New York Jewish community, with Zoram Hamdani sworn in as mayor on New Year's Day, gets the sense that there is, you know, the mayor is essentially implicitly a supporter of people who come to make their lives a living hell when they do communal Jewish activities. They will respond accordingly. And what I'm saying for the first time when I said, you know, 20 minutes ago was we shouldn't leave. We shouldn't leave because we can't see this. We can't see this. And the thing to do is to fight back. And the one way of fighting back is not to move to, you know, not to move to Florida. But one other way to fight back is to stand there on the streets if this is going on and say, oh, yeah, okay, you know, let see, see what you can do. Go ahead. You think we're, you think we're, you think we're neurasthenic little, you know, munchkins. Don't, don't, don't think so fast. And, and that, that's a, that's an important, that will be an important sign. There's a lot of giving up. There's a lot of. I was even last night thinking, and I put out a tweet last night where I said the news yesterday, between this Mamdani statement and the mysterious appearance of the vaccines cause autism statement on the, on the HHS website, and I hate to say it, but Trump's craven, this 28 point peace plan for Ukraine, which is a, which is a nauseating and craven act on the part of the US Government and a couple of other things. It's like, I'm just, it's so depressing. The news is very, very depressing. And of course, the.

[Christine Rosen]

No, that's not official yet. The 28 point plan is not an official thing yet. That was like leaked, right?

[Jon Podhoretz]

It was leaked. But, but it's, but it, yeah, it's official.

[Christine Rosen]

Okay.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Resigning, I mean, the American Kellogg is.

[Christine Rosen]

Resigning is a bad sign anyway.

[Jon Podhoretz]

It's, it's apparently, it's apparently a working document. But I'm just saying, like, I was like, oh my God, like, you know, this is so depressing. Like, what a, what a day. Like, why did just the middle of the week just. And there's three, you know, four little really fun nuggets of news that, that, that you know, sort of represent the coming of, you know, sort of like the, the, the, the dark enlightenment and, and, and yeah, and Tucker Carlson having on the son of. Of. Of Nikki Haley to say that people whose heritage American, the son of an Indian immigrant to the United States saying that immigrants should not. What did he. Eliana, you listen. What did he say specifically? He said they should not be granted citizenship.

[Abe Greenwald]

I'm not sure.

[Christine Rosen]

No, he said no citizenship.

[Abe Greenwald]

He said he doesn't support dual citizenship. That should be done away with and nobody should be allowed to be a citizen of this country who serves in a foreign military. So, so if you serve in the idf, you can't be a citizen of this country.

[Jon Podhoretz]

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[John Podhoretz]

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[Jon Podhoretz]

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[Eliana Johnson]

Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Stories shaping the industry, explaining why they.

[Eliana Johnson]

Matter and saying the things most people.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Are thinking but too timid to say out loud. No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis that isn't afraid to call it like it is.

[Christine Rosen]

We also pull back the curtain via.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Our exclusive reporting to take you behind the scenes. My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer.

[Eliana Johnson]

And when the moment calls for, for.

[Jon Podhoretz]

It, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up. Oh, my God. That's Power lines presented by Status. Follow power lines and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or your favorite podcast app.

[Abe Greenwald]

But the thing I have to say, the thing I took exception to most is, was the conceit of the episode was to try to explain the appeal of Nick Fuentes and I think to try to sort of blame others. And particularly it was to blame, of course, other conservatives because, you know, we just need to focus on the left, just like they're doing, you know, so this was another attack, the right episode. And it was to say that the rest of us on the right weren't upset enough about anti white racism when it was happening in 2020. And that's why we have Nick Fuentes.

[Christine Rosen]

Okay, yes.

[Abe Greenwald]

And so to blame the right, and in particular, the subtext is that Jews are only concerned about antisemitism and they weren't concerned about anti white racism. And that is why we have Nick Fuentes and young people like, you know, the wonderful Nayland Haley is a dastardly, disgusting attack and a lie.

[John Podhoretz]

I mean, how many articles have I written, have we written about the insane anti whiteness of the woke revolution?

[Eliana Johnson]

Noah Rothman talked very early on about how the victim mentality on the right was going to lead in a direct line just to exactly those sorts of statements. And he was absolutely right. He wrote a whole book about not.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Just the victim mentality to expand on Abe's and even Tucker's line that the victim mentality would lead to this kind of idea that Jews weren't being, you know, pro white enough or something like that that we said or people said. There are various ways that the idea of privileging the victimhood of minorities over the everyday, over the. Over the difficulties and troubles of everyday Americans as they try to deal with inflation and Covid and whatever, that this was a Pandora's box that was being opened, that if you create identity politics, this is something that people who've been opposed to identity politics for the last two generations have been saying. If you create identity politics, you are creating white identity politics.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I just. Yeah, yeah, two points. Point number one, if you're. Look, if you're gonna. And I agree with all that, that like, it's a nonsense charge. But hey, Tucker, if you want to look at like a real culprit, according to your logic, let me tell you about this guy named J.D. vance. He wrote a book called Hillbilly Elegy which blamed all the poor whites, said that you have yourselves to blame for your problems. That's the. You got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and be like me and go to Silicon Valley and Yale Law School. So that's number one. So if you're looking to blame somebody, I would start with J.D. vance, who actually does fit your meshuggahna stereotype. And number two, can we just notice. Nayland Haley, Nick Fuentes, Ali Alexander, we are dealing with a rainbow coalition of white supremacists. What is going on? This is amazing to me. Look in the mirror, Naylon. Are you sure you want to have the heritage Americans?

[Jon Podhoretz]

Now, listen, in the early 90s, in the early 90s, my father told the story. He was sitting at a party with a bunch of friends, and immigration came up, and everybody was vocally, vocally anti immigration but him. And he looked around the room and he said to them, how come I'm the only one here speaking in an American accent? Because it was John o' Sullivan and Peter Brimolo and that Cuban guy whose name, Jorge Borges. And there were like five of them around a table, and he was the only person who was born in the United States and spoke with an American accent. So this is a thing. This is like a real thing on the right where now they could say, like, as Trump would say, well, I know because I'm from an immigrant background, how evil immigrants. Like, I know how terrible the elites are. I come from the elites. But that's not what's. But that's not what's. What's. What's going on here.

[Christine Rosen]

It's crazy that you have on Nayland Haley, who. Listen, I don't want to. He's a young kid, and he's that young.

[Jon Podhoretz]

He's not that young. He's 24 years old. He can go drop down a sewer as far as I'm concerned.

[Christine Rosen]

All I'm saying is when I was 24, I believed a bunch of crazy things that I don't believe today. And I want to give. I want to have a little bit of grace here. But my point is that it's like, kind of crazy that he's now a sock puppet for what is this antiquated racialist idea which I think still think turns off most Americans. I think, Eliana, your point is totally right. Like, you know, maybe the anti Semitism message doesn't carry, but I don't think. I think this stuff just freaks a lot of normie Americans out. And like, anyway, and he's supposed. I don't know what's going on.

[Eliana Johnson]

Well, if you look at racer one thing to add to that, you're absolutely right, because if you look at. We tend to think of intermarriage rates about being black versus white, and those have steadily climbed for, you know, a very long time. But intermarriage rates of Hispanic and white America, I mean, we really are a polyglot company country. People do get together from various races, and there are so many Americans with members of their extended family who are not white. And who they love. And you're exactly right that hearing someone say those sorts of things is absolutely off putting.

[Abe Greenwald]

And the thing that struck me listening to this, to this podcast yesterday was, you know, the attempt to say, like, where were all these elites? It's not. He wasn't. They weren't just blaming the right, but it was, you know, elite conservatives as well as the left. And that the Jews only care about the Jews is that, you know, the Jews are treated as whites. And when you treat everyone equally and the whites succeed, the Jews succeed, too.

[John Podhoretz]

I was just about to jump in there and say that, say this. Not, not white. During the woke revolution, the term hyper white came. Came up. Jews were hyper white.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I want to make one point, and I have no idea what this means. I'm gonna say it, and you can take it however you want it. There is Nayland Haley essentially adopting some form of, I don't know, Pan American Supreme. I don't know what you would call it. His older sister is married to a black man. His mother an Indian immigrant. And she's not an immigrant. Her parents were immigrants. She born here, mother married to a white man. He is from a multicultural family. And if he wants to start restricting the understanding of what it means to be an American, I hope he has a really shitty time at Thanksgiving because who. Nikki Haley. Bless your heart. Nikki Haley is a person who, like, stood foursquare in her bid for the presidency and in her efforts at the UN and to speak for a view, an expansive view of what it means to be an American, patriotic, forward, looking forward thinking, and utterly, you know, supportive of the state of Israel when she was at the un. So, yeah, you know, I'm sure she'll say, bless your heart.

[Eliana Johnson]

Comes from south member. As governor of South Carolina. She also, first of all, received a lot of racist attacks when running and when she served. But she also dealt with a very difficult moment in the history of the south where these questions about, should we have Confederate statues in our town square? Should we fly the state flag that has the stars and bars to get back to what point Eli made earlier? And she handled that with extreme sophistication and thoughtfulness and in a way that I think showed true leadership. When she was pretty young in her political career, she oversaw the removal of.

[Abe Greenwald]

The Confederate flag, I believe from the.

[Eliana Johnson]

Yes.

[Abe Greenwald]

From the state capitol. And I think it was in the wake of that racist shooting at a church.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah. Dylan Roof shooting in Charles gave beautiful.

[Abe Greenwald]

Remarks when she did so.

[Christine Rosen]

But yeah, and this also gets to something else, which is that this Nayland Haley on Tucker is coming literally like only a few days after J.D. vance decided to so bravely attack this low follower count journalist for basically like asking a question, saying, how dare you attack Tucker's son, Buckley Carlson on my staff. And then this whole meme came around like, you're not going to force me to ritualize denounce my friends and my family and everything else like that. Tucker just had on an ingrateful son who was attacking his own mother. And now, you know, the disconnect is incredible to me. So like, you know, this whole like, value, oh, I'm not gonna attack my family and everything like that. And then he has on Nayland Haley to trash Nikki Haley. It's incredible to me.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, so one quick point, and this is actually more about Tucker than about the Haleys. And I was struck in the very beginning of this episode. And by the way, the first 45 minutes or something are just a monologue from Carlson. In the first three minutes of the episode, he says, we need to examine why people are listening to Nick Fuentes and not the Heritage. Somebody from the Heritage Foundation. And so after throwing the Heritage Foundation, I know, into turmoil for a month and causing a lot of damage there because they stood by their friend Tucker Carlson, he throws shade at them in the first three minutes of the episode. I. It was striking.

[Christine Rosen]

Well, this gets, I guess like a deeper thing here and just really quick on Tucker, which is this. The defense of Tucker rests largely on I'm not going to attack my friend. That's what Megyn Kelly says. That's what J.D. vance has said privately, apparently to people like Rod Dreher. That's what Kevin Roberts said. My friend Tucker Carlson. I'm not, you're not going to get me to attack him. And so I'm proving my friendship. What kind of a friend is Tucker? Tucker is the one causing this political Soros for J.D. vance. Tucker is the one that, as you just pointed out, throws shade at the beginning of his Fuentes, another Fuentes related episode at Heritage Foundation. Tucker is the terrible friend who has on the mother who's gonna denounce the son who's gonna denounce his mother. And so it's kind of an interesting thing that this like, thing about like friendship and loyalty only travels in one direction. But Tucker is allowed to be in a complete a hole. It's amazing to me.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, you know, the many aspects of the judgment of Kevin Roberts of the Heritage foundation being called into question, you have now brought a signature thing that his donors and the people who have yet to oust him should be paying attention to, which is that he is a person of literally no emotional intelligence who has no idea that his friend Tucker Carlson is a monster who is perfectly happy to trash him as he trashes everybody. Because of course, Tucker is a betrayer. He's a betrayer of this country. He is a betrayer of the traditions of this country. He is a betrayer of, of the people who helped, you know, get him places. I'm sorry that he got fired by Rupert Murdoch. That doesn't mean that all of America now has to become his catamite. And you know, good. Congratulations to, congratulations to Kevin Roberts for his, you know, friendship. You know, the frog is not the friend of the scorpion and Tucker is the scorpion here. And you know, that was totally self evident, has been totally self evident forever. And well, I just, I would like.

[Eliana Johnson]

To be the fly on the wall at Tucker Carlson's friendsgiving meal where all of these friends gather and, you know, share their support.

[Abe Greenwald]

He's caused immeasurable grief. And I mean, one other thing that struck me in just observing this whole thing is, you know, as Abe mentioned or Aber Eli, one of you said the line is, I don't want to criticize my friend, which I think is, you know, fine. But, but many of these folks are not simply not criticizing. I mean, silence would be, silence from Kevin Roberts would have been fine. But what they're, what they end up doing is no, you're actually making a decision to go out and praise. And that is what, you know, many people want to debate and find objectionable because they actually find what he's doing objectionable. And so, okay, like you want to praise. We're going to say we don't think it's praiseworthy.

[John Podhoretz]

First of all, I think this whole, everyone thinks it's his badge of honor to say, I won't throw my friend under the bus. I think it's an indictment. If you have a friend who is advancing the cause of bigotry and hatred and anti Semitism in service of a plan to tear the country apart, what are you doing being friends with that person? There's something wrong with you. That's first of all. Second, as Eliana says, they are not just saying, I won't denounce him, they are amplifying their friends case. Last, what they are also trying to do is establish themselves as the gatekeepers, as the new gatekeepers. We've been saying for years, all the gatekeepers on the right are gone. There are no Gatekeepers. I'm going to be right about this. Today nature abhors a vacuum. We should have known this was not going to last. They are trying to be the new gatekeepers.

[Christine Rosen]

Such a great deal.

[John Podhoretz]

And who are they keeping out? Anyone who criticizes hatred and anti Semitism. They are not allowed. That is what they are saying is beyond the pale of discussion.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well put. Christine, you have a recommendation?

[Eliana Johnson]

I do. I'm back to weird translated fiction, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody on the podcast will cringe, but I found an interesting book by a South Korean writer named Bora Chung and she wrote a book that came out a few years ago that got a bit of attention called Cursed Bunny, which I didn't like. So I approached this new one with some trepidation. It's called Midnight Time. A novel and ghost stories. And it's actually, it's great. It's weird and great. So the idea is that she's following different threads of different people who work at an institute that keeps lock up haunted objects. But it's really about several stories of haunted people and you know, who among us isn't haunted. And ghost stories in particular are all about unfinished business. And so in each of these little vignettes, these little short stories, you get a portrait of someone who is being haunted by something and has some unfinished business in his or her life. But it's done in very creative and cheeky way. She's a great writer. The translation is very good. It's a short read. I read it on an airplane flight. But her stories are quirky, interesting. There's one and they're very modern. I mean there's one that kind of follows a would be influencer who gets involved in this institute. So I just recommend it as a sort of palette cleanser if you like quirky ghost story type things. This is a collection of great ones. It's called Midnight Timetable by Bora B O R A Chung.

[Christine Rosen]

Can I make a plug? The current episode of Breaking History is Never Mind the Bullocks. Here's Socrates tracing the origins on the 50th anniversary of punk rock to in my view, the first punk, which is Socrates, the most hated man in Athens. And the next Breaking History will feature John Podarts and Christine Rosen as we dive into the naughty 90s and what? Clinton's getting away with a sex scandal. Getting away with a Sex Scandal tells us about this Jeffrey Epstein moment that we are in.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So when will that come out?

[Christine Rosen]

Wednesday. Right. As you're going to your Thanksgiving holiday, as you travel. This will be a nice tight 50 to 60 minute podcast you can listen to on the train, plane or automobile.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Great. I also want to step in here to I rarely do this, but I want to commend a column, a newspaper column, the best one that pretty much I think I've read this year and I didn't want the week to end without mentioning it. It's Barton Swaim's piece in the Wall Street Journal today called Tucker Carlson's Bible Study. This is an extraordinary piece of analysis, rhetoric, denunciation. Barton is a wonderful writer, but he really has taken it, stepped it up to a new level by attempting to discern the theological implications of what Tucker Carlson says when he talks about Christian Zionism, the Bible, what the Bible says, and the fact that, as he points out, quote, he related to Megyn Kelly that he recently read the Bible cover to cover for the first time. Having read an ancient 700,000 word book only once might prompt an ordinary person, particularly one who takes that book as divine in origin, to express his views tentatively. Not Mr. Carlson. And so on it goes. This is a really remarkable piece, Tucker Carlson's Bible Study in the Wall Street Journal. You can read it right now. Anyway, I hope everybody has a wonderful weekend despite the incredibly depressing content that we have provided you today. Ignore us. Go watch football, start spatchcocking, whatever you spatchcock for your holiday. And we'll be back on Monday. So, Eli Lake, thank you for joining us as ever. And for Christine, Eliana and Abe, I'm John Podporic. Keep the candle burning.