D (3:07)

All right. My two minutes on this is that, you know, it does appear that the President got frustrated with Bondi's inability to successfully prosecute his political enemies. And I think, you know, the President nominated her after in the first administration Having Jeff Sessions, with whom he got frustrated for recusing himself from the Russia probe, and then Bill Barr, with whom he got frustrated for not pursuing his claims that the 2020 election was stolen. And, and now Bondi, who he pushed to pursue his political enemies, who did try to do that with the Comey and James indictments and pursuing prosecutions against these six lawmakers on Capitol Hill and runs up against very left wing jury pools and other issues. But in D.C. and Virginia, which is what anybody nominated to this job is going to run up against. And I think it does raise the question whether there is anybody who's going to be able to do this job, you know, to the President's satisfaction. Bondi had other demerits. You know, I wonder how the President perceived her testimonies on Capitol Hill. I think Bill Barr was more capable at offering testimony and engaging in back and forth with lawmakers. Bondi sort of threw that to the wayside and just hurled insults at them. And I don't think it was really successful. I wonder how that was perceived in the White House. But this fundamental issue of trying to pursue prosecutions against the, against the President's political enemies, which they did to him, you know, it's retribution for what they did to him, but then having these jury pools in DC And Virginia, these grand juries in DC And Virginia, that simply won't abide it is a structural issue that faces any Republican president who wants to do lawfare back to the Democrats.

A (5:18)

Okay, but you know what? That's all true. And it's true that there are left wing jury pools. These indictments and these pursuits of these people were garbage. And they, they should be cited as

D (5:31)

garbage of Trump, but they had.

A (5:35)

I'm not saying the indictments of Trump were garbage, although I don't think that Eileen Cannon. I don't think the indictment of Trump at Mar a Lago was garbage. It was something else.

D (5:45)

The documents case was for sure the strongest case.

A (5:47)

But the President of the United States is not supposed to use the Department of Justice as a personal retribution and vengeance department. He's not supposed to. If Biden did it, that was bad. Trump doing it is bad. I just have to say that. Just, just totally agree with that. Yeah. Okay.

D (6:08)

My point is.

A (6:09)

Yeah.

D (6:10)

Will anybody. I'm asking the question, rhetorical question. I'm not sure anybody is going to be able to do the job to his satisfaction, which is, you know, to do unto them what was done to him.

A (6:24)

Because he has this fantasy in his head that Nixon had John Mitchell and John Mitchell did his bidding when Nixon was Attorney General, which is an interesting angle to take since John Mitchell went to jail, he went to jail for doing things for Nixon. So therefore, what he wants is somebody who is so successful at his job that when a Democratic administration comes into play or a different kind of person can find a way to that that person will end up going to jail for Trump. Now, I just want to point out the other thing about Bondi that is important is that the thing that really was mishandled, though very situationally and cynically, was the Epstein files and the Epstein papers, and that was this. The people who are now gone, like Dan Bongino and others, who, like, spent a year yammering and screaming and shrieking about the Epstein files and how they were going to basically prove that the entire Democratic Party was a pedophile ring. And that all seemed really great to them until they got their hands on the Epstein files and discovered that it didn't say that, number one and number two, that Trump's name was all over the Epstein files. Although, as we now know, all that means is that somebody's name is mentioned in the papers, in the 6 million pages of the papers, like, my name is mentioned seven times. Trump, obviously having had nothing to do with Epstein since 2004. Nonetheless, because they.

C (7:56)

That could have been any of the many Podhoretzes. It's very common in America. Smith, Jones and Podharetz.

A (8:03)

Exactly. So, but here's the point, which is they made hay. They thought it was like great podcast fodder. And then what? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. They come out and say, well, you know, we looked at it, there's nothing there. And then basically handed the Democrats a big fat, oh, who's suppressing information now? Who's telling the truth now? Who's trying to suppress the real revelation that Trump was a pedophile out of these papers. And because the Republicans had no antibodies to fight this, since they had been yammering about it for four years during the Biden term, that piece of legislation was passed that Trump had to sign, releasing these papers, which is an outrage and an infamy because totally unredacted, mostly unredacted materials involving people whose private lives have no business being exposed the way they were in these files. Careers have been ruined and destroyed simply by dint of the fact that the world discovered that people had been in correspondence with Epstein or had been had something to do with Epstein and all of that. And that wasn't anybody's business. And Bondi is responsible for the mishandling of this matter, even if it was something that Trump wanted. I'm not saying Trump fired her for good cause. I mean, he did. I'm sure he thought, well, she screwed this up the way she screwed up all the indictments. But this Justice Carbon has been running egregiously badly everywhere except the Civil Rights Division. And that's just the fact of the matter.

D (9:39)

And it looks like Carmead Dhillon, who runs the Civil Rights Division, is about to get a big promotion.

A (9:44)

Right.

D (9:45)

That's been a source of, I think, immense pride for this administration. I totally agree with you about the Epstein files and their release. And one thing that struck me we're getting a little far afield here is that, you know, kind of like in the Me Too era, nobody who has been. Whose name has been dragged through the mud in the Epstein files yet. I don't think I may be wrong, but I don't think has stood up and said, this is madness. This is madness.

A (10:20)

No, they haven't. They.

D (10:24)

None of the, none of the people whose lives are ruined are speaking up for themselves because they've engaged. This is insane.

A (10:31)

Because they engaged Crisis Council and the world, you know, the, the Crisis PR world says, say you're sorry. You know, say you're sorry.

D (10:41)

You're a terrible person and you made,

A (10:43)

you know, you made a mistake. And what's more. And get ahead of it by, by controlling it yourself because everyone is going to fire you anyway. Or something like that. Anyway. I'm just saying.

E (10:53)

Can I just say that? Two quick things. First, to Eliana's question, which I think is the important one, as we think about who's going to have the AG role in the future, the acting AG who was Bondi's deputy, Todd Blanche, if he can't keep that job and do what Trump wants him to do. He was Trump's personal criminal lawyer, defense lawyer. He should be the perfect person for a highly politicized Justice Department. So if he can't last, if Trump gets rid of him or doesn't make him the AG or put him up as aggressive, that'll tell us something. And to the Epstein thing, if you were hanging out with Epstein after he was convicted of soliciting children for prostitution, you should be shamed. I just, I have no problem saying that you are, you are a bad person and you should not be someone who we make any excuses for.

A (11:37)

But we do not have the Justice Department and criminal investigations that collate and collect materials that do not involve any accusation of Criminal wrongdoing released to the public. It is part of the compact of our self governing citizenry that we empower law enforcement agencies to investigate crimes. And when they don't discover crimes, what they discover goes down the memory hole because it is not anybody's business. If you're Larry Summers and you have a relationship with Epstein, that's shameful. Yes. If. If you're Leon Botstein and may have tried to raise money through Epstein. Yes. But it is not. We only know this because something happened that is the opening of a Pandora's box. If Congress is going to feel like it has the right to go and vote on the release of confidentially collected pieces of evidence that aren't even evidence and just say throw them out there for everybody to look at. This is one of those, like because

D (12:53)

of a whip out, buddy. Because you could be Populist frenzy.

A (12:59)

Yeah, so. So I'm not defending anybody who has a relationship with Epstein. I'm saying that the only reason we know about some of these things is an act of Congress signed by the President. That is an infamy. And that is a very frightening, very frightening precedent because it could be the thing that. Where a guy who was Epstein's fixing Epstein's car is in the Epstein files. And then some, you know, and there's an email saying, you know, I need you, you know that your car is going to be delivered back next Tuesday. And somebody says, oh my God, that guy from, you know, Precision Auto tune in is in the Epstein files. I better not go to him to get my oil changed. I mean, it's that level. If you could have this searchable database of 6 million pages of correspondence. But even John, even the, even the

B (13:55)

people who should be shamed, and I agree, they should be. I don't even should be shamed. Even the people that I find disgusting for having, you know, been close with him. Forget the guy that fixes his car. We shouldn't even know about that. It's not criminal. You're allowed to be a disgusting person.

A (14:14)

That should not allow you to be in proximity to disgusting people.

E (14:17)

New Commentary magazine podcast phrase.

C (14:20)

Thank God.

A (14:21)

Yeah. Look, I've spent decades arguing that ideas matter, and I really believe that sleep does too. I suffer from sleep apnea. And dealing with my sleep apnea has been one of the signal issues of my life. If you or someone you love suffers from mild sleep apnea or snoring, there's an FDA approved daytime therapy called Exciteosa available through Goodnightrx. And you need to hear about this no masks, no equipment strapped to your face while you sleep just 20 minutes a day, strengthening the muscles that keep your airway open. And in clinical studies, it cut apnea events nearly in half. Think of it as a workout for your tongue. Go to goodnightrx.com and use code pod at checkout for 25% off. That's goodnightrx.com code pod sleep better so you can argue better. Okay. Anyway, so that's Palm, but I think, I think this is still America, right? But it's not just by the way, that Bondi's replacement is in trouble, because they won't be able to satisfy Trump's hunger for the use of the Justice Department in this way that Roy Cohn must have, like, gotten into his head is the way the Justice Department is supposed to run. It's that Thom Tillis, if he appoints somebody. Now, Thom Tillis, the outgoing senator from North Carolina, has said that he will oppose and block from Senate consideration on the floor. And any nominee who says that the either I believe that the election was not one, was, was law, was not lost by Trump, or that January 6th was, you know, a proper, you know, insurrection and not a, and, you know, or a proper, whatever you might call it, you know, just a demonstration, a peaceful demonstration that he will stop that from happening, and he will have the power to do that until January. So Trump is also in a bind because if his litmus test is, you better say that I won the election and that January 6th was okay, he's not getting that nominee through because Tillis will, who is, I guess, on the Judiciary Committee, will put a hold on it. And so therefore, you know, that's another way in which he's six ways from Sunday kind of put in a very, very complicated position relating to this. Okay, so we've now done Pam Bondi. Do we want it before we get to Iran? Do we want to talk about the Trump Library? Who wants to talk about the Trump Library? I want to talk a little bit at the Trump Library.

C (17:13)

I mean, I don't understand. My understanding is that all his papers are going to be in his basement, in his flooded basement. So I don't understand what books, what are, what are the things that you can read at the library? That's what I want to know.

A (17:28)

Well, I guess you could read the Epstein files, among other things. But so, I mean, at least it

E (17:33)

doesn't look like a Star wars villains lair like the Obama library and, you know, doesn't threaten to confiscate massive amounts of public land to do so. But yes, it's going to be in Miami, right?

A (17:45)

It's in Miami. It looks like the Trump Hotel in Chicago, or like a Miami version of the Trump Hotel in Chicago, which is on the Chicago river just opposite Wacker Drive and with a big Trump sign. So it's gonna be a hotel, apparently, and the word Trump will be blazoned across it the way it is on the Trump Hotel in Vegas and on the Trump Hotel Hotel in Chicago. The two great features of it, of course, are the 40 foot tall golden statue of him making the fight gesture after the bullet grazed his head, which I think is interesting. It's sort of like a version of the reclining Buddha, but standing. Ever seen the reclining Buddha or a picture of it in Bangkok? It's a. You go and you think, oh my God, this has been here for a thousand years. It turned out that they made it in like 1937 and it's like 200 foot long reclining Buddha that's covered in gold leaf and that they have to keep repainting gold because the atmosphere, the humidity keeps peeling. The reclining Buddha, but. So we're going to have a reclining Buddha in the form of, of a president, is obviously the perfect presidential library for him. And it does in fact point out that the most single most prophetic work in American history, and maybe since Nostradamus is the film Back to the Future too, because of course, Biff Tannen, the villain of Back to the Future two, who gets the book that Marty brings back from the, brings with him from the future to the past of the, like the racing almanac, becomes a billionaire and then builds himself an incredibly garish hotel with his name at the top of it. And everyone who sees Back to the Future 2 says, oh, my God, this is some kind of prophecy of Trump. And now Trump is literally building Biff's hotel for real as his deathless tribute to himself.

B (20:07)

Yeah, I mean, I saw on X there were people who are offended by this, by the garishness of it, by the fact that it's a hotel with Air Force One in the lobby as well as Trump indicated. But I have to say, I think it would be stranger if this were actually an August presidential library, staid, you know, institution. I mean, this is like the, this is the honesty part of Trump that actually appeals to people. When he was asked about it, he said, I don't, I don't believe in presidential libraries. I'm not big on that. It's going to be a hotel. This is that's what it should be.

A (20:54)

It's interesting. My kids, something's going on with their sheets. Go to their beds. They're like half off. They roll around at night. Sheets are slipping off the corners. Also, pillows kind of look mushy and crappy and old. This is one of these things. I'm told most people actually keep their bedding way longer than they should. It wears down. You don't realize how much it's affecting your sleep and making your bed look ugly until you finally get make the decision to replace it. And most people think they need a new mattress. But the biggest difference usually comes just from replacing what touches you every night. That's why you should upgrade your bed with bowl and branch. They make everything your bed needs. Signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets and comforters, all designed to be breathable, incredibly soft. Get better over time. Most people start with the signature sheets and a lot of customers buy two sets so they can rotate them. They've also added the waffle blanket and now the whole bed just feels amazing. So upgrade your sleep with bowl and branch. Get 15% off your first order, plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com commentary with code COMMENTARY that's Boland branch. B O L L A N D branch.com commentary code commentary to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. Georgie is my dog. She's four years old. We got her during COVID for the kids. Two of my kids are now off in college. So Georgie is now my dog, my wife's dog. We love the dog. We were never going to get a dog. And now, of course, we can't think about life without her. And we worry about her health. We worry about problems with her. And we pay too much attention to her, to be frank. So now let me give you a quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. So she's part of our family. And vet bills are like any bill for any member of your family. They're necessary. You don't question them, but they can add up quicker than you can imagine, which is why it's worth checking out ASPCA Pet health insurance. Pet insurance can help manage the vet bills so you can focus on what really matters, making sure your pet gets the care she needs when she needs it. Oh, and there's a little bonus. There's a perk for enrolling. When you enroll in an ASPCA pet health insurance plan, you could get a $25Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you when you're doing something great for your pet. The program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care they may need. To Explore coverage, visit aspcapetinsurance.com commentary that's aspcapetinsurance.Com commentary. Eligibility restrictions apply. Visit aspcapetinsurance.COM Amazon terms for more info. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Ltd. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. Look, having been to, I don't know, four presidential libraries, they are not what people think they are. I'm sure there's a lot of papers and you go there and you can use the papers. But the public facing part of presidential libraries, the Reagan Library, the Nixon Library, the JFK Library in Boston. These are of course basically kind of hagiographic displays, right? That's what they are. And the Kennedy Library is pretty bad, actually. It's a bad, cheesy kind of like kids diorama tour that they haven't updated in 40 years. It's pretty crappy. The Nixon Library, which actually takes a critical view of the Nixon administration, or at least a objective view of what happened in the second term with Watergate and others, is a much more impressive telling of the history of the remarkable life of this very singular figure. The Reagan Library, of course, has Air Force One in it, and that's the big, and a version of the Oval Office. And those are the big highlights of that. But they're all, they're not the Library of Congress. So, yeah, it is the perfect representation of Trump. Is it offensive? Yes, it's, it's offensive because, like, this is like our, this is like our great office. You know, I'm sorry, like, I understand that.

C (26:05)

Can I give a shout out, by the way, to one of the presidential libraries? Because I, years ago, Madeleine Albright was wearing a Harry Truman pin, which I liked very much, and I was asking her on Twitter, where did you get that pin? And the Harry Truman Library came into the conversation and said, well, we could tell you she got it from us and we're going to send you one. So the Harry Truman Library was monitoring. Yes. And so I still have that. I still have that.

A (26:38)

So I've been to the Harry Truman Library also, actually. And the funny thing is that the Harry Truman Library, there are two libraries in Missouri because there's the Harry Truman Library and then there is the library that is essentially dedicated to Churchill's Iron Curtain speech. And the Churchill Iron Curtain speech library is better than the Harry Truman Presidential Library. It's a much more interesting, impressive, sort of deep, rich history museum because it sort of tells the story of the Cold War from the origin of the phrase Iron Curtain coming from this speech that he delivered. Anyway, okay, so, I mean, one thing

D (27:20)

on the Trump Library. Trump style is not my style. I'm not big on gold and gold toilets and, you know, in your face, whatever. But it does seem to me like the Trump Presidential Library. Thinking about children of future generations, you know, going to visit. This should be a representation of Trump, and they should get a sense of the man when they go there. And so, in that sense, this seemed to me a very fitting monument. The guy is a real estate guy and a hotelier, and, you know, and so it should be as garish and loud and in your face as humanly possible. And, you know, the school kids, moving forward can get a sense that this guy was not like the other guys. It would be bizarre to have a Trump library that was just like all the other libraries. And if there was not one, you know, he doesn't.

A (28:20)

It will be. It will be the most. Yeah, it will be the most visited tourist attraction in Miami.

D (28:27)

Yeah.

A (28:27)

By the way, when it's done. Yeah, you'll be able to go there,

D (28:32)

and they should have the charts and pictures that people presented to him. I mean, it really should give people a sense of how this guy operated, which is completely, completely unlike all of his predecessors.

B (28:43)

Future kids can go there, play a game of craps.

A (28:48)

They could have the map of the hurricane where he drew the line that he wanted them to have for the path of the hurricane.

E (28:56)

The gift shops will sell Sharpies, for sure. There'll be, like, special sharpies.

A (29:01)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so Trump library. So I don't know if there are many other things that have happened in the last five, but of course, the main story being the war and Trump's various reactions to various things, getting to the point where you never. Every time you think that he can't go further than anybody has ever gone before, he goes farther than anybody has ever gone before. I mean, it's now why we're surprised that he says things and does things that no one has ever even thought to say or do, and that he can sort of do them at whim at a moment's notice in five seconds. You know, I do. I am constantly surprised. It's like Lucy in the football. I don't know what the hell is the matter with me, but that he was able to tweet, basically that, you know, to keep the effing. You, you, you Michigan. A bastards. Keep the effing straight open.

E (30:04)

Or Praise Allah on Easter. Praise Allah on Easter was kind of

A (30:09)

the kicker for that one.

D (30:09)

Open the f' N straight.

A (30:12)

Open the effin straight. Basically telling Rachel Scott of ABC that he's going to blow everything up if they don't do it by Tuesday. He's going to blow everything up. And threatening what would be, I mean, war crimes in targeting civilian infrastructure for no reason other than to inflict pain, which is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. Even if, as we know, that is exactly what Iran is doing on a daily basis against the Gulf states and against Israel, targeting whatever it is that they can target that isn't, you know, that isn't military. But so, of course, just to like,

B (31:00)

split hairs here, if the regime is using any of these facilities in some significant way, it's a murkier picture.

A (31:08)

But that's not what he said. But what he said was he was going to basically blow. I mean, in that sense, anything is a military target because anything has dual use. I'm not talking about the bridge that we did blow up, apparently, across which it is entirely conceivable that new launchers, new missile launchers were being driven in to various places to be placed so that they could continue hitting after resupply. That is a military target. But he's literally saying, I'm going to blow everything up without any, without, without mention of the idea that he's going to blow everything military up or he's going to blow every. He. He is attempting to scare them into opening the Straits. And the problem there is that this is the one area in which they may not be scarable like that. It may be it's in their interest to have us take this turn so that they can maybe make the case to the, to the Iranian people that this war has turned in a way where America and Israel are now actively harming any possibility of restoring any kind of normalcy to Iranian life ever and making that. I don't know that that appeal will work, but that may be something that's in their head. So therefore it wouldn't be something that would be frightening to them if we did that.

C (32:44)

Also, they're following the US Debate, right? Like, it seems like we're debating with ourselves over this stuff. It seems like when Trump is threatening to blow up stuff, he's, he's threatening other Americans who don't like the War. Because he'll say something, I'm gonna do this. And then, you know, there's this group of Americans. No, no, please, Mr. President, please, we'll do anything. Don't do that. It's not the Iranians responding that way. It's, you know, it's usually newspaper columnists in the US But I think the Iranians are just following the conversation and just falling in line the way they do with the talking points, right? I mean, they, they echo talking points. Anti war talking points. Anti war talking points, echo their talking points. Sometimes you can't tell which side and which not. But you know, they make the Lego memes, Lego Video AI memes and stuff that they're sending to Trump that they seem like. And I don't, you know, I don't want to cast aspersions on the dnc, but like they feel like one of those cool, hip DNC committees that they make that they're like, we're gonna win the Internet now. Republicans can't meme. We're gonna show them how to meme. We're gonna be cool to the kids. The Iranians actually seem kind of like that right now. But I really think that they're just following in step. And every time there's this, you know, every time Trump makes these threats and it doesn't have to get to the Iranians to protest because by the time they have a chance, by the time they wake up in the morning and see what Trump has said, you know, half of America has said, oh, this is war crimes. The 10 senators have probably written an open letter, Brian Schatz and Chris Murphy and these guys, you know, and really you can just kind of stand aside if you're Iran and watch America fight itself over these threats in this stuff.

A (34:39)

I want to talk to you today about quints. And it's an interesting day to do that because last night I decided I needed some shirts because I've decided on the podcast, if you watch it on video, that I should wear button down shirts with ties. And I have some kind of cheesy old shirts that are kind of fraying. And what did I do? The first thing I did, did, I went to Quince, I went to the Quint's website. I bought three different shirts, three different models on sale, a couple of them on sale, one not on sale, but the price so low, they're coming in the next day or two. And I'm telling you right now, they're going to be great. They're going to look good, they're going to last a long time. That's what you get with Quints. The kind of material, the kind of quality and the kind of price point that you just dream of. And that's been my experience with Quince ever since I started buying sweaters, jackets and all kinds of properties from Quince. The best part, those prices 50, 60% less than similar brands. How is that possible? Because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Everything is designed to last and make getting dressed easy. So refresh your wardrobe just like I did with quince. Go to quince.com commentary for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Q U I n c e.com commentary for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com commentary. So where we stand then is Trump is literally activating the madman theory of history before our very eyes. He's saying, I've had enough. You're interfering with traffic. I've been bombing you and bombing you and bombing you. I've had enough. Now what I got left is I'm going totally mental. You are. You think, you think you've seen, you think you've seen trouble. You've, you ain't seen nothing yet. I, I am as crazy as a junkyard dog and I'm not scared of anybody and I'm not scared of American public opinion and I'm not scared of the Hague and I'm not scared of Kenneth Roth. I am going to blow everything up unless you come to the table. What does he do Tuesday night when they haven't opened the Straits of Hormuz?

E (37:20)

Well, he's gonna have a press conference. Sorry about the noise in the background. He's gonna have a press conference this afternoon at one o' clock as our amazing astronauts are slingshotting around the moon. So we have to like divide our attention.

A (37:30)

Another thing I didn't even mention.

E (37:31)

Yeah, that was amazing. And everybody should read about and watch what's going on with the Artemis mission. It's kind of incredible and inspiring, not less so is the. Whatever he's going to say today is going to have to answer. It'll either be dialing back or ratcheting up. He doesn't really have a moderating tone, although I will say he, he was more moderate in his remarks to the American people last week. On Wednesday, we had already taped the show and then he did his statement to the nation. I was glad to see him use that medium and talk to the American public about what his plan was. It remained vague, as I expected it would, but at least I found that to be a respectable way to do things. I'm very glad he's having a press conference today. But this, this, the Mad Men theory of history assumes that they won't call his bluff. And I don't think they have anything to lose. We have news today that the second in command at the IRGC was just taken out as well. We're not really sure who we're negotiating with over there in terms of what the public knows about how much this Pakistani effort, back channel effort is working. There's just a huge number of unknowns. So I hope that's what he's pressed on and responds to in some of the questioning. But this is a very dangerous situation in the sense of if they call his bluff, what happens next? If they just don't agree to open the straight, what's it going to do?

A (38:47)

Well, I think this press conference, sorry,

B (38:49)

I just want to say I've stopped trying to connect anything he says about this war to future prospects about this war. He's clearly deliberately playing a game here. You know, everyone wanting to know what he's going to do, what he's going to do, what he's going to do, what's the net. What happens next is impossible because his, the very tactic that he's trying to apply here is to completely surprise the, the enemy. I mean, so at the end, the other side of that coin, it all ends up completely surprising us as well. So I don't even see this as either they call his bluff or they don't. For all we know, by the time we get to Tuesday night, he will have said four other things, the US And Israel will have done three other things, and we'll be in another situation entirely.

A (39:54)

So, okay, so to talk about the speed of events here, okay, this morning, as we're speaking, two hours ago, three hours ago, Israel hit a major Iranian petrochemical plant. Over the weekend, of course, came the rescue again. Everything's moving so fast. The astonishing rescue mission that saved the downed pilot from the F15, that was, that was shot down. One pilot rescued immediately, the other rescued after 36 hours. And then the very interesting stuff that was going on during the rescue mission, in which it is conceivable that we knew where that pilot was because he had lit an emergency beacon, that he had followed his training and gone to a place where he was relatively safe, despite the fact that he was grievously wounded. And that we misdirected the Iranians saying we didn't know where he was and that we were desperately looking over on this side and we're looking over on that side in order to smoke out Iranian special forces and then pick them off while they were trying desperately to find the pilot. That might have been part of a remarkable not only mission, but then a sort of like, you know, innovative war technique that we may have involved ourselves with. And I think the idea of this press conference they had won was to focus attention on the rescue, on the fact that we leave no one behind and that we did this very daring thing. And here was this great American hero who I assume will be named and might be like interviewed by telecommunic, whatever by two heroes.

E (41:36)

Two heroes, both pilots.

A (41:37)

I'm sorry. Right. And so, you know, like that was sort of what we were originally told this press conference was going to be about, but with the Israelis a killing the basically the last remaining major leader of the IRGC who wasn't dead already. And the IRGC again should be understood as a kind of combination of The Green Berets, SEAL Team 6, the Marines and the Palace Guard. And is this kind of all purpose elite army that stands on top of the Iranian army, but not as good

E (42:16)

as our elite army units.

A (42:18)

I just, obviously I'm just saying. But it is this weird structure. They have sort of three militaries in, in, in Iran. They have the irgc, they have the regular Iranian army and they have the Basij, who are the sort of the internal enforcement morality, you know, whatever the regime enforcing police against domestic discontent. But the IRGC is like the gold standard and runs the terrorism and does whatever it's doing and is in theory either now in control of the country, which is part of what we're hearing, or is in control of whatever military actions are still being taken. And if they really are, if their leadership really is sort of like being picked off one by one by one by one by one, I mean maybe they have brilliant lieutenant.

C (43:09)

Correct.

A (43:09)

And I mean it really is, it's

B (43:13)

more than an army now. You know, over the years the IRGC runs all sorts of institutions in Iran. So and the idea is that yes, now as, as the mullahs have been picked off that the IRGC's profile has been raised here. So you know, like I, oh, we

A (43:33)

also struck, we were, we were also told that we struck a leadership meeting on Saturday and killed 50 senior leaders of the Iranian government. The United States did that. Israel killed the IRGC guy today. So all of this is going on. And yet we also have to point out that while all this is going on, the missile war against Israel is actually getting more potent. Haifa was hit, four people died. They're using cluster munitions. They're. They've clearly adapted some of their strategies. They may have been resupplied with new technology that is making their targeting more accurate and stuff like that. So, like just so much is happening.

C (44:19)

Yeah. It also kind of feels like, well, by the way, I love John, I love the idea. I get the picture in my head that further down the line they have to hope that like some IRGC guy is like, you know, Tom Brady in a sixth round draft pick, right. One of those undrafted stars, like, who know, hey, we didn't know we got a Tom Brady and then the other guy got injured. But one of the things that it feels like is happening is also that Trump is discovering the power and glory of the United States military. Right. I mean, I think that the, when you look at the rescue mission, first of all, the combination of Artemis and the rescue mission is like, what a cool weekend in terms of a display of what we are capable of when we want to demonstrate it. I don't want to celebrate the fact, you know, it's not great that somebody got shot down. It's a war, but it is a. These were two separate demonstrations of, you know, American, America's ability to do great things. But in terms of the rescue operation itself, think of the planning, right? Think of the coordination, right? The CIA knows what it has to say. What, as you said, John, the rumors it has to seed into the ground and all that stuff, it has to. All of this stuff, by the way, has to be arranged with the Israelis also, just because they're flying the same skies.

A (45:47)

But they contributed, by the way.

C (45:49)

They contributed to the mission.

B (45:51)

Intelligence and firepower. Yeah, right.

C (45:53)

And so the, the amount, but the amount of a, you know, the different agencies, the different levels of military, you know, the different command centers that are involved and they just pull the trigger. You know, what happens is not like the guy goes down and then they run a six month boot camp in which all these, you know, had these interagency training ops, figure out how to do this and get ready and go. The United States military is ready at any moment to do insanely incredible things, mind blowing things. And Trump, I think, is discovering that. And it reminds me a bit of the strike on Iran's nuclear facilities. When Trump sent the big bombers to drop the big bombs. That's how he viewed it. Big bombers dropping big bombs. But what he saw was that, you know, when he went to the military, they said, we've been practicing for this, you know, for, I don't know, 20 years or whatever. Like, we practice, we prep for things we might never do. That's how advanced militaries work, obviously. And Trump got a look at that, and he seemed like a kid on Christmas morning when the bombers went and there were no hitches. They hit their targets, they came back, and then he was able to say, all right, that's enough, and, you know, tell the Israeli jets to turn around or whatever he felt in control of. It's like being in control of the ocean. It's like commanding something that is so awesome, you can't really imagine commanding it. And that has led to a certain hawkishness, I think, on his part, because he's gotten increased confidence in the US and its capabilities, as this stuff has gone along, as they proved. When we say we're ready to do something, we do something. And so that's been another side effect of this is a sort of Trump falling in love with, you know, the left industrial con.

A (47:58)

What.

B (47:58)

To say nothing of the Venezuela operation.

C (48:01)

Right, That's a great point. Right. In the Venezuela op.

B (48:03)

Yeah.

A (48:04)

Okay, so. And Christine mentioned Artemis, and Seth, you mentioned Artemis. And I think this is a very important point that unfortunately, America is not going to have the response that it might under other circumstances were too big. People aren't paying that much attention. We're not that involved in this war as a. As a populace or even involved in, you know, space exploration as a populace. But for the Israeli people, small country, 9 million people, the technological breakthroughs that were shown in the course of the incredibly difficult 2e year war against Hamas and then against Hezbollah, the kinds of things that Israel proved itself capable of against Hezbollah, the Beepers operation, the bombing of the Hezbollah headquarters in Beirut, and then. And then the elimination of people in Iran and the strike against Iran, and all of that was as a matter of Israeli national pride. And the sense that this horrible crime that had been done to them was A, being avenged, and B, that they were showing the world what they could do and what their country was capable of was incredibly important for the Israeli national mood over the last two years. And in some ways, were we a different country in a different place, with a different sense of our identification with our military and with our technological prowess? Artemis and the rescue mission could play some role in giving Americans a little boost of confidence about who we are, how we do what our military is capable of and what we are capable of technologically. But we are so now committed to, on both sides. And because of social media and all this, to this rank pessimism and sense of defeatism and the idea that our best days are behind us and that we're not good at anything and everything stinks and all of that, that. That even these remarkable achievements are going to not have. They will. They will fill with pride the people who are already ready and willing and able to take that pride on and add it to the reservoir of pride that we already have. I'm not sure it can fill a reservoir of pride that people don't have.

B (50:36)

We also want this point I've harped on before. It's not just us, but it certainly is us Americans. We've lost our capacity for awe. I mean, not entirely, but a good deal. We're over everything. What blows our minds. An amazing AI slop video. People go, wow, this is the future. This is, you know, I don't know.

A (50:59)

They just happen in space. What's that they were making. They were going to make. Sora was supposed that the AI slop video company shut down because people literally were having the opposite reaction to the AI slop that they were supposed to be.

E (51:16)

Abe's point, though, what we're all on, a lot of online commentary about Artemis was focused on on the fact that the toilet wasn't working properly. That's what he means. He means like we should be fired by returning an effort to return to the moon.

C (51:28)

I will say that it wasn't the gold toilet, though.

E (51:30)

Both Artemis and the rescue are also an expression of American values. And you were right, John, to point that out, particularly with the rescue, we don't leave a single person behind if we can. If we can bring them back. And the idea that people in Europe and elsewhere were sort of astonished that we would sacrifice both planes and, you know, all this money and time trying to rescue one person, that's exactly what we do. And that's where I think the juxtaposition with some of the rhetoric that the President was demonstrating on Truth Social over the weekend was jarring. That's kind of not American values. You know, cursing on social media and saying, you're going to blow things up is not usually how we conduct warfare. So that. I think that's where a lot of the celebratory stuff that we should be proud of as Americans gets lost, because there's that constant tension. Just the world we're in right now, the timeline we're in.

A (52:19)

Look Fair enough. I do think, though, that what we are seeing and getting to the question of American pride, there has been this narrative for the last 20, 25 years, the stagnation narrative, economic innovation stagnation narrative. Right. The great stagnation, Paul. Paul Krugman called it. Ross Douthat says, we're the decadent society because we don't create new things and we're just making sequels culturally and that sort of thing. And all of this flies in the face of what is actually in front of our faces, which is that we are going through another industrial revolution. We are in the middle of it. AI is part of. It's frightening. We incepted an entire natural gas industry beginning in 2007 that has made the United States a net exporter of energy. There was no fracking industry in 2007. It is 19 years later. It is a mature industry that built pipelines from Pennsylvania to the Gulf of Mexico while nobody was looking. And even as people were protesting the creation of these pipelines, we weren't going into space. Guess what? Private industry came along, invented private space exploration or private spacecraft, a private spacecraft business, because government could no longer do it, because government had gotten too bureaucratic, too cautious to everything. And we created a private space industry. Right? We are on the verge. We are doing stuff with our computer technology or whatever, you know, whatever term you want to use now, that is almost mythological in its potential. And of course, it's also scaring the bejesus out of us, as it should. But this stuff that happened this weekend is the result of 20 years of technological innovation that our elites have pooh, poohed, have spat on, have said isn't happening, have said creating incredibly unfair social dislocations because of unequal socioeconomic distribution of economic assets and that sort of thing. And we're seeing it in front of our very eyes. This war is happening on a level that no military has ever achieved, ever. In 1991, when we did the Gulf War, which was then considered the most lopsided military victory in history. In two months, we lost 75 planes. We have lost two or maybe three and then some drones. We are using old drones that are getting shot down that cost a lot of money that no one would build. Now, like these drones, oh, my God, we've lost 16 drones. They cost $30 million each. Nobody today would make a $30 million drone. What do you need a $30 million drone for when you're going to have a $250,000 drone that does the same thing? But that's how our military procurement system worked. So we are. We had this most lopsided victory. We are now in a new realm of lopsided. Have we achieved our geostrategic aims yet? No. Are we anywhere close to losing them? No, because they've pulled this one nuclear option on the Strait of Hormuz that will just require national and American will, and as Trump says, the will of the people whose oil is actually being deeply and profoundly affected by the shutting of the Strait. That's where I don't like the anti NATO talk and I don't like all of that. But he's obviously entirely right that the civilized world should go and open the Strait of Hormuz by going through it and daring the Iranians to strike and then see what they want to do to Iran also. So that is a matter of national pride to me and should be to everybody. And obviously it isn't because you do have this world of people who, were it not that Trump were president, would be celebrating what is going on here. And instead they're talking about how Iran is winning. Iran is winning. What is Iran winning? What will Iran win if, you know, if we pull out, Iran will win, that it survived, and then it can say, aha, see, we survived. What has it won? What will it ever have been declared to have won except some kind of psychological victory? There is no winning. Iran hasn't won its military infrastructure, its leadership, the Molocracy, the idea that this is an advanced civilization that should run the world, you really going to feel that way if you're an Iranian standing in the rubble in. In May? Okay, that's my.

D (57:40)

Yeah, it is. It's astonishing that it took them five weeks to shoot down a single plane.

A (57:47)

Yeah.

D (57:47)

And that was tragic. I was petrified that they would actually capture this guy and, you know, start making propaganda videos. But then the fact that we were able to go in and set up an airfield on their territory is really remarkable. And back to Abe's point about what the President says versus what he does. It did occur to me, for all his bluster about targeting the electricity infrastructure, my thoughts really are with how are the President, the Americans and the Israelis thinking about targeting the energy infrastructure of the country, which really is the lifeline of the irgc. And it seems impossible to me that that's not really where his thoughts are. And cutting off the financial flows to this regime, which seems to me to be the final step of this war. Well, okay, so opposed to what he

A (58:57)

actually said, so Israel's Defense Minister Katz Just issued the following statement, or did this morning. The IDF has just powerfully struck the largest petrochemical facility in Iran, located in Asaluya, a central target responsible for about 50% of the country's petrochemical production following last week's strike on the second main facility. So before Trump in is going to blow everything up, the Israelis are doing these very precisely targeted strikes on the ability of Iran to process its own domestic energy petrochemical facilities inside the country, meaning what they produce in order to get stuff that they need to power what they have, not stuff that they're going to export. So the Trump blowing everything up strategy is already starting. But it's not what he said, which was basically, I'm gonna make life impossible for everyday Iranians by ruining everything. Which is sort of what he was saying. This is an important thing.

B (60:15)

Well, he's saying, well, I just gotta say, because I know someone put it to him about that and he said, no, the Iranians are for it because they're already living in hell.

A (60:25)

Right, right. So. And he may be. Yeah.

E (60:29)

Another, another thing to consider. Again, it's amazing. We are only in like what week? Week five, six of this. This is a very early in it, if it is a war. It's very early in it is that China has recently been making some moves that suggest its concerns about its own stockpiles of oil. Gets a lot of that from Iran, as does many other parts of Asia. Those will eventually run out for China. And there's now some, there's been some reporting about China sending technology back towards Iran. Help starting to help Iran in a way that's observable by us. And I would assume they have some long term concerns about energy and we should as well. We are not, we shouldn't be overconfident. I mean the price of gas remains high. It will get higher. Even if the Strait of Hormuz is opened up on Tuesday, there's going to be this delay. Americans are suffering, will suffer some economic impacts from this, as I think we all expected we would. They will likely reverse in time. But Trump's also got to go to Congress and ask for some more money for this conflict. And that's going to be another potential opportunity for him to explain the reasoning of this pursuit and where he sees it going. He's going to ask for a lot of money and a lot of that money will help rebuild long term spending that we have needed for our military to rebuild for decades. So in that sense, this is another one of those things where people who Hate Trump will not acknowledge this, but it's absolutely an opportunity to do what many experts in our military and who observe our military have said we needed, which is to upgrade and really restock. And again, China will be watching how successful he is and we are at doing that as well.

A (62:01)

And also remember what I mentioned about the drones, right. Which is that we are in a position in which we have an older technological Pentagon that spent ungodly amounts of money on incredibly sophisticated weapon systems that may now be obsolete. And that the restocking that we're talking about, which was an idea envisioned back in the late seventies by the neoliberals around the Washington Monthly, though we were in no way, shape or form were ready for the practical application of that, which is you're going to be able to rebuild and restock at a much lower price point than we have been generally making our equipment at.

E (62:50)

And a new generation of private contractors rather than the big, you know, the big ones that we've tended to rely on. There's a lot of more entrepreneurial work being done in the defense space.

A (63:00)

Exactly. Okay, so I don't want to be, I should point out finally that I don't want to sound triumphalist. I'm worried. Like everyone's like, oh, you see, the hawks are all triumphalist and they say everything is great. And then the doves are all this and said the truth is somewhere in the middle. My view has been from the beginning of this war that without regime change, this war will not be a success. That regime change doesn't have to happen when hostilities conclude. But without regime change, we are not going to be in a position where we can say that the war was won. I remain committed to this position and I am worried that of the declaring victory and getting out and not continuing with the stuff that has to happen, not on a battlefield way, but covertly, the Israelis and us on the ground and supporting whatever it is we have to support, either to encourage coups inside Iran, where they basically have to then spend years fighting amongst each other and therefore turning inward and leaving the rest of us alone, or an actual popular revolution, which I think is probably less likely than others do, because I don't really know of an actual popular revolution that I could look at and say really worked, where they sort of marched in and took over and everything was glorious and wonderful. But nonetheless, that is a prospect.

E (64:36)

Well, except for ours 250 years ago.

A (64:39)

Well, that was after an eight year war and we didn't have to march in and take anything. We were living here. We just had to keep them from taking from, you know, from, from killing us.

C (64:50)

The Revolutionary War was in a way, it was like the movie Home Alone. We just booby trapped our house.

A (64:59)

There's an. That's, you know what, that's the congratulations

E (65:02)

Jefferson rolling over in his grave right now.

A (65:05)

Either that or we have an entirely new way of looking at the, in, in the year 250of, of the Revolutionary War. I'm thrilled we have at this, at this innovation rather like the drone innovation and the private space exploration and private military contracting that we have been, we have been praising here. Seth, do you have a recommendation? I believe I do.

C (65:29)

I want to recommend the Kat Rosenfield's new novel, how to Survive in the Woods.

A (65:36)

Good recommendation.

C (65:38)

Kat is probably known to. If the listeners of ours that know her, half of them probably know her from her mystery novels and suspense novels. Half of them probably know her as a culture commentator and columnist for the Free Press. Now for the Free Press. But they've surely known her for longer. But she, her books are what she's a wonderful writer and this latest book of hers is just a real genuine psychological thriller. It's an abusive marriage that becomes a love triangle and a plan to free themselves, each of the three in some manner by killing one or more of the others essentially in a hike in the Hundred Mile Wilderness in Maine, which is a part of the Appalachian Trail that's just kind of famous for, you

A (66:33)

know, gotta stop there because I've read it. It's a wonderful book. It's a wonderful. And you don't want to tell anybody anything else. Also, Kat Rosenfield, excuse me, I'm sorry, does a podcast with Phoebe Maltz Bovee that of course, because I'm getting old. I can't remember the name of. It's called Feminine Chaos and it's on substack and it's really, really good and really, really interesting. But yeah, her essays in the Free Press are incredibly original and interesting and ideologically interesting and this book is just as a corker of a suspense novel. So it's called how to Survive in the woods and great recommendation. We'll be back tomorrow. For Abe, Seth, Eliana and Christine, I'm John Pothortz. Keep the caliber.