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A
Foreign. Champion pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing which way it's going Hope for the best, Expect the worst, Hope for the best. Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Monday, June 8, 2026. I am John Podhoretz, the editor of Commentary Magazine, the magazine that is offering you, if you are a first time subscriber, the unprecedented deal, $19.95 a year for a full year subscription to commentarycommentary.org, 80 years of commentaries archives. It also helps you support the podcast. We've never made an offer before like this and orders have been pouring in all week. So join the throng, become part of the band. Please, please participate. It really helps us and it will be very enlightening and stimulating for you and also reminding people, oh, to do that, I'm sorry, I should say go to commentary.orgoffer that's commentary.org offer and November 8th in New York City, Commentary roast of Ron Dermer. You want to know about that? Go to commentary.org roast commentary.org roast with me today Executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
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B
Hi, John.
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A
Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
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C
Hi, John.
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And Washington Free Beacon editor Eliana Johnson. Hi, Eliana.
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D
Hi, John.
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A
Busy night. Iran fires ballistic missiles at Israel. Ten of them, ten of them are intercepted by Israeli defenses. Donald Trump, we are told, immediately called, I mean, we were told by Barack Ravid of axios and Channel 12 in Israel that Trump called him and said he was ordering Israel not to respond. And Israel responded, thus leading to the question, hitting, by the way, some fairly major sites and raising the possibility that the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps was killed overnight in the Israeli retaliation. But we don't know that that's true. Anyway, raising the question, did Trump say to Bibi, look, I'm going to go out and say in public that you shouldn't do this, but you go ahead and do whatever you want to do. Or did Bibi, realizing that there is literally no way that Israel could create the conditions under which it was not going to respond to a direct attack on its territory, something that it failed to do in 1991 when Saddam Hussein hit Israel with Scud missiles and George H.W. bush insisted, demanded that Israel not respond. And then Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir acceded to America's requests. And that was tactically and strategically a very big mistake because it gave the Palestine Liberation Organization and others some sense of where Israel's soft spots were and where its weak points were. So Israel responded. Trump has now said that Israel and Iran are gonna somehow negotiate, which of course, has never happened. Israel and Iran have never negotiated on anything. He's negotiating. There's a negotiation. I don't know what the hell is going on. Aside from Trump, like, you know, storming out of interviews with Kristen Welker and making it impossible for anybody to go to a Knicks game tonight, because he's decided to go to the Knicks game, thus inconveniencing the entire city of New York.
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C
I'm guessing not just the Knicks game, but probably anybody taking a train into Penn Station all day, right?
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A
Oh, yeah, exactly.
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C
It's the most used commuter artery, as they call it, in the Northeast.
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A
And everybody's already rattled because there was a stabbing spree in Penn Station last night, which reminds you of why it's so why, basically, they're gonna have to empty out not only Madison Square Garden and the area around Madison Square Garden, but Penn Station, atop which Madison Square Garden sits. It is an underground horror show of a train station, and it sits below Madison Square Garden. So basically, I don't know if anyone's even going to be allowed to be in Penn Station, given the possibilities. So Trump's in very weird. Behaving very weirdly. Israel did what it had to do. Iran decides if our ballistic missiles at Israel, because it claims to be mad at Israel's attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon. And I will finish up this ridiculous monologue by saying that Trump's communications this morning speak about Israel's relation to Iran and the need for a ceasefire between Israel and Iran and leaves out Hezbollah and Lebanon. It's very notable that Trump didn't say Israel needs to stop hitting Iran and Israel needs to stop hitting Lebanon. If, as a result of what's happened here, Trump has effectively decided to stop with the pressure on Israel to do what it can to destroy the Iranian proxy in Iran, then that, as our friend John Sanzer just said a couple minutes ago, that will count as a win for Israel. That Israel has knocked, has changed the conversation about its efforts in Lebanon. Okay, Seth Mandel, your quick thoughts on these momentous. Sure.
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C
I would like to do the very Jewish thing of responding to a question with a question, although you weren't technically asking a question, but here is the report on what the Israelis hit. Okay, we have the military said the Israeli air. I'm reading from the Times of Israel said the Israeli Air Force struck three sites at a pet petrochemical complex in the Mashar area in southwest Iran, aiming to destroy infrastructure used by Iran to produce raw materials for the manufacture of Missiles. And then it says that the Farce News Agency, the governmental news agency of Iran essentially confirmed that. Okay, here's another one. Recently. This is from the IDF's own statement. Recently defense systems were deployed in numerous areas across Iran as part of the regime's efforts to restore its detection and defense capabilities, which were degraded during Operation Roaring Lion. The strike led to the destruction of these systems. These are air defense systems. To be clear, for people listening, here's my question. Why was any of this up and running in OR two, why was it, why was it able to be struck by Israeli strikes last night? What exactly are, are we all doing in this war? This, this is.
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A
Or is this a Socratic inquiry?
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C
Because you know, it's a Socratic inquiry.
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A
So answer your own question.
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C
Yeah, I mean this is, this is, I, what I think is that the strikes, the tit for tat, whatever you want to call it, over the past 24 hours have revealed how much sillier the situation really is then even than it looks. Right? It's that this is the Abe. It's worse than that situation. It's not just that Israel was told don't make trouble, we're close to a deal. And we had all these echoes of the 91 Gulf War when Israel was told not to respond to Saddam. But you have clear proof now that Iran is A building back up its air defense systems because there were systems to destroy. B building back up its ballistic missile program because there were at least components of this program that were being used to build ballistic missiles that were struck last night. So we, we've talked about this idea of the ceasefire being not a ceasefire and all the reasons it gives the weaker in any fight, in advantage almost in any war regard, not even this, but just the idea that a ceasefire, if it's just a breather, then the person who needs the breather has a win. But Iran is rebuilding the systems that made it possible to deter attacks on its nuclear infrastructure originally. And that led to years and years of waiting and compromise deals and bad ideas. In other words, we're letting them put a shield back up. And we know that we're letting them put a shield back up because in retaliation for a ballistic missile drop, we took that shield down again. And so to me the question is, what is our, what is the goal here? Because initially we had said that the ballistic missile program is part of what we're targeting. We being the US The Trump administration said the ballistic missile program cannot continue as it is because it's a threat to existential threat to Israel and it's a threat to our allies in Europe. That's something we discovered over the course of the war and the nuclear situation. If we're going to let them rebuild their ballistic missile program, then that's. That goal is taken off the list of goals of the war. If we're going to let them rebuild their air defense systems, then we're going to have a much harder time keeping down their attempts to rebuild their nuclear program. So I'm asking. Those seem to be the two major goals of the operation, and we seem to be letting them just slip away knowingly.
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A
Abe, you tweeted out yesterday afternoon, in disgust, I would say, or disappointment, that Israel's now learning that all of this bad behavior somehow has at its root Israel's refusal to deliver the final blow to Hamas. That is to say that Israel, by abiding by Trump ceasefire plan. Now we're like, this only happened not even a year ago. Israel, the ceasefire plan that had them essentially agreeing to this line where Israel controlled 58% of Gaza, but that they basically were no longer attempting to kind of destroy Hamas, that they were leaving a remnant of Hamas in place, that this established what you might call the doctrine that you should wound and injure and really, really, really hurt your enemy, like we've done with Iran, but that you don't have to deliver the final blow, and that that somehow is in the atmosphere of what Trump has now gotten himself to with Iran.
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B
Yeah, it feels to me like that's where it started going all wrong. I wanted to almost say spiritually, but that's not the right word. But, you know, metaphysically, it's like once Israel sort of gave up, not gave up on, but was coaxed into compromising on the question of it entirely destroying its mortal enemy or enemies. I think is when you began to see, even we, you know, we were still eager to call it a victory. And in way, certain ways, it obviously is a huge, A huge victory. And, you know, but I. Everything over the weekend is just, I find all of this so dispiriting. I mean, the fact that, I mean, I remember last week when we were talking about Iran breaking the ceasefire, someone said, well, they didn't. They didn't fire on Israel. They weren't that brazen. They didn't dare do that, but they were pushing other boundaries. Well, now forget now. It's now we're right back now they are doing that. And we're also leaving out this leaked. We haven't mentioned this leaked Trump administration story about supposedly raising the alert about Israel spying on the US And US Negotiations. So there's this internal administration turf war, but sort of like, you know, fight for the direction of US Mideast policy vis a vis Israel at the moment. And there's a real. It's like you have to check in every five minutes to see where it's at. But there's this real effort. This is real kind of shifting of blame here, trying to throw things on top of Israel. The more Trump flails in whatever he's pursuing now, this supposed peace deal, I guess, but he's just made a total disgraceful hash of everything. I'm sorry. I mean, it's just a disaster.
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A
Very quickly, before we get to Eliana, I just want to say that the story, the New York Times story about Israel spying on the United States, this is a big deal. Not because it's just obviously a hit on Israel, an effort to separate the United States from Israel and all this, but it's genuinely untrue. And we know that it's untrue because Israel itself went through an incredibly dark night of the soul in the early 1990s after several incidents that revealed the extent to which Israel was spying in Washington. Among them the arrest and conviction of Jonathan Pollard, who was Defense intelligence, and then a couple, three or four other things that went on that actually caused a crisis of emotional confidence inside the Israeli intelligence and, and political realms in which they said, what are we doing? Why are we, you know, we can't be doing. This is too. We're endangering our friendships, and this is just, you know, we're being stupid and we're not going to do this anymore. This is really dumb for us to be thinking that we should be using conventional spycraft inside the United States. Dozens of books have been written about this in Israel. Everybody who was involved, you know, has sort of written about their moral crisis over what. Over the injuries they may have done to Israel in being involved in spying efforts against the United States. And so this story is sort of doubly or triply offensive because it is almost certainly not true and that somebody inside the Pentagon has sort of dropped a dirty dime on Israel in an effort to create the conditions under which people like Graham Platner and people like Thomas Massie and people like whoever can, can claim, oh, even the New York Times says that Israel is, like, acting like the United States, that we're enemies. And I think we're enemies and we should treat them like they're enemies. Anyway, I just wanted to stipulate that. Do you feel there's something off with your career? Maybe you're stuck, burned out, ready for a bigger move. Maybe you just want clarity on what's next. Well, that's where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me comes in. Strawberry Me matches you with a real career coach, carefully selected based on your goals, personality and professional background. Not random Internet gurus, coaches. They average 16 years of experience across 900 companies and 37 industries. Most have been leaders, founders or executives themselves. And it's not just one conversation. You meet one on one over video. You build a personalized plan together. Together you stay connected between sessions through messaging. When real life challenges come up, most people hit a meaningful milestone within four to six sessions. Visit Strawberry Me Commentary and start with a coaching trial today. Might get you unstuck. Might build your confidence. Help you take action on something you've been putting off for years. For our listeners, tell them that it was the Commentary magazine podcast that got you to sign up to Strawberry me and get 50% off your first session. You know when you're shopping online, you want to buy something and you're on a website that you already have a login to but you can't remember the password or you want to buy something. You got your credit card out, but you can't remember the three digit number that you got to do at the end of your credit card number and then you got to go find your wallet and it's late and you're tired. Picture this though. Late at night you're scrolling. You see the product and you know what you see there? You see a purple pay button right there next to the product you want to buy. It has all your information saved. It makes checking out as simple as a simple tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like the Commentary Magazine podcast to brands just getting started. So for vendors, you got to think about how Shopify will help accelerate your efficiency. Whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones. Packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. Best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise and everything for managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary shopify.com commentary. Eliana, where are you on everything as of this weekend. Are you in the disaster camp?
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D
Starting with the New York. There is a New York Times report and an NBC News report and the headline is Pentagon sees growing espionage threat from Israel. Well, technically I'm sure it's true that there are particular people in the Pentagon who see a growing espionage threat from Israel now. And they saw it six months ago and they saw it six months before that because there are people in the Pentagon who view Israel as an adversary. And in the sub headline the Times story says Israel is believed to have eavesdrop on American negotiations with Iran. Well, what we've learned is Israel has Iran pretty thoroughly penetrated. I'm sure they do know what's happening in those negotiations because they have fully penetrated the Iranian side of all of this. You know, John, you made a comment that it could be that Trump told Bibi privately, hey, go ahead and retaliate, but publicly I'm going to condemn you. I have to say, based on what's transpired over the past couple of days, I don't actually think there's any like 3D chess or 40 chess or 60 chess going on here. I think that the current state of affairs is a pretty natural outgrowth of the US from April 8th or whatever the date was of the non. Ceasefire. Ceasefire. I think it was April.
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A
April 8th.
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D
I'm sorry, April, yeah. That the Iranians violated from the drop and the US from the drop deliberately looked the other way at the Iranians. Defiance. The first defiance was the refusal to open the Strait of Hormuz, which they were supposed to do when we had a ceasefire. Then it was attacks on our Gulf allies. And this latest defiance was striking Israel, launching missiles at Israel. And the President has said and instructed our military officials to go out and say, well, these things don't rise to the level of breaking the ceasefire because we're negotiating, we're negotiating, we're negotiating. When I hear those things, they, they smell of weakness, of the desire for a deal. And if there's anything the Iranians, you know, want is to string along these negotiations, get them closer and closer to the midterm elections. And I think they have an acute understanding. I don't know how you get beyond the Iranians understanding. And it's a correct understanding that the President does not want to and will not. He even said, maybe I'll resort to force again if they kill an American. That appears to be his red line. So they know that they smell weakness. They are trying to drag this out closer and closer to November so that he won't go back to war in the meantime, I think his political calculation is wrong. I can't imagine anything worse than taking the biggest gamble of your presidency and bringing it to an inconclusive result. So Americans are suffering the consequences of higher oil prices, of bad headlines and so on, and we don't achieve something decisive. This is just dragging on and on and on. So that, that's my view of things.
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C
By the way, that's a good thing to point out, as Eliana does, that going back to something she said early in her comments, that Israel spies on, obviously on lots of countries that the US Is dealing with. And what you have here is increased activity in those places. And it's very likely, again, as Eliana points out, I, I just think it's worth underlying this that the US is playing footsie with Pakistan and other countries, that Israel keeps a close eye on Iran too. All these countries involve Turkey. I mean, we, us going to Erdogan in Turkey and to the, to leadership in Pakistan and, you know, talking about meeting the Ayatollah, the Iranian Ayatollah, if he's alive. All this stuff is unusual to be so public. And it's not Israel that is behaving unusually. I think that's the key thing that, that we should underline from what Elian was saying is that Israel has not actually stepped up its, its apparatus. It's, it's, you know, its architecture of spying or changed its rules of engagement for spying. What's happening is that people like Steve Witkoff are venturing into territory that is rife with espionage because of who they are, where they are, who their friends are and what they're up to. And he is sort of discovering how much the Israelis know about what's going on. And, and that suggests the kind of innocent American abroad, much more than nefarious Israelis installing listening devices in places they didn't before.
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A
Also, the United States benefits from Israel's intelligence penetration of these countries. I mean, basically, since we decided to go to war with Iran and we weren't talked into it by Israel or anything like that, the war's efforts and what we accomplished during the war integral to our ability to target properly, to do the kinds of things that we were doing, to have the kinds of successes that we had on the battlefield were due to Israel's astonishing penetration of Iran down to whatever rooms the leadership was in, that's a net benefit to the United States. If it so happens, as you say, that in the course of the last three months that Israel's Intelligence assets have also been present or their listening devices or something have been present in rooms in which American negotiators have been talking to cutteries or something like that. That again, is a benefit to the United States in this sense, which is that it represents a check, it's another ear or something like that in case Witkoff goes like half cocked and says, you know what, why don't you just take over Kuwait and then everything will be fine, or whatever. Says something rather. But they are not spying on the United States is the point you're making. They're spying on Pakistan, they're spying on Qatar, they're spying on Saudi Arabia, they're spying on Iran, they're spying on Iraq. They are trying to keep an eye on everybody who is a threat to them. The thing that I mentioned earlier was about direct efforts inside the United States to, to develop a spy network that would report on the United States to Israeli intelligence. And that network was broken up. It does not exist anymore. And as I say, we know that because the Israelis who did it have themselves been rueful, apologetic and grief stricken in some ways over what they did and how they made mistakes in that regard. Okay, so Abe has now gone to the. Trump has made a hash of it, and it's a disaster. This is a crossing of the Abe Rubicon. It's much worse than that for Abe here. And I do think that Trump's temper tantrum with Kristen Welker on Meet the Press is interesting because I, of course, generally speaking, I don't think any of us has a problem with Trump yelling at the press or saying, you guys are so biased and you stink and all that. Like, he's right. And they often do. And we have some evidence of that with these astounding interviews that Scott Pelley has given after his firing at cbs, which we could talk about in a minute.
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D
But there was something we have got to get to that we're going to
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A
get to Scott Pelley in six, in 60 seconds. But do you agree with me? There was his demeanor. He was like out of context. He was not. I got the better of you. He was like, I hate you. I can't stand you. Hey, I hate you. And you're talking about the election. And you. And then he said to Kristen Welgr, he said something like, you're stealing the election in California. You're stealing the election from Spencer Pratt or something like that. It's people like you, you know, not people like you. She said, you're stealing the election. He sounded unhinged. And I don't often say that because I don't really think he's usually unhinged. That's something that he uses to his advantage. In this case, I really thought that he was just out of control.
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D
I actually viewed that a little bit differently in the context of the other events that unfolded over the weekend, which is, I think quite a few Republicans in the Senate, in the House and Senate are going to be unhappy with the course of these events. And that adds to a list of issues. Welker was pressing him on the IRS weaponization fund, which is an issue on which he's crosswise with Senate Republicans. Add to that this Iran issue. I think he's going to be crosswise with many Senate Republicans. There is the FISA issue. FISA is expiring or has expired because of his nomination. Not even nomination. His appointment of Bill Pulte as the acting director of odni. That's four major issues where he's crosswise with Republican senators heading into a midterm. And, and supposedly, you know, he's ostensibly, he's doing what he's doing on Iran to help or he thinks he's helping Republicans in the midterms. But meanwhile, you know, he's endorsed Ken Paxton in Texas over John Cornyn. So I viewed the Welker thing, which was on one of these irritants with Senate Republicans. And, and Iran is just further straining his relationship with Senate Republicans and adding to the party's problems ahead of the midterms.
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A
Okay, well, but then again, what did you make of his demeanor? In other words, an irritant? His buttons were pushed.
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D
I didn't.
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A
But rather than seem like he was in.
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D
By his demeanor. Yeah.
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A
I mean, he stormed off the set. I, you know, I'm a pipsqueak and he's the President of the United States. I mean, I've stormed off sets of television shows that I've been on when I got really, really, really, really angry at something, a line of questioning that was being thrown at me. So it's not that I don't understand the feeling that is raised by this, but. But I just don't think that made him. He looked bad. He didn't look good. It's not like you. Yeah, you tell her, Mr. Trump, you know, you give it to her. It had a different quality.
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C
I saw one detail that said that he crushed the lav mic underfoot as he walked out. If so, that's the only detail I think is cool.
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A
That is good.
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C
Rest. I agree. I agree 100% about the behavior and everything else. But if it was like throwing down the lav mic and stepping on it like it was a cigarette, I maybe I'll allow for for just that part of it.
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A
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- [32:20]
E
I started with one shop. No college degree, no big investors. It was just a willingness to work. Over time, that one shop turned into a multi billion dollar business quote called Crash Champions. All the lessons I learned along the way came from the grind. And that's what my show Pod Crash is all about. We have real conversations with people who've built things the hard way. We talk to founders, athletes and blue collar leaders who kept going when things got tough. You'll hear stories of grit, leadership and growth. Plus real world lessons you can take back to your team and your life tomorrow.
- [32:54]
A
When you get moment momentum, you step on the gas.
- [32:57]
C
That's how you get separation from everybody else.
- [32:59]
A
I was at Harvard Law School. I was blah blah blah. I looked up, let me tell you something. There's kids in my neighborhood putting in sheetrock that is smarter than you.
- [33:05]
C
AI is going to disrupt a lot of stuff.
- [33:07]
A
It is never going to disrupt physical blue collar trait skill.
- [33:11]
C
And the guy just looked at me
- [33:12]
A
and he said it's bloody impossible. So I asked him this question. I said it's impossible.
- [33:17]
E
Unless that's Pod Crash with me, Matt ebert. Watch on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:32]
A
Eliana Johnson, you have expressed your desire to discuss Scott Peli. So I want to turn the mic over to you to speak of the career of Scott Pelley in the wake of the meeting at Seattle in which he attacked his new boss and Bari Weiss and said they were murdering CBS and they were monsters and horrible and then got fired the next day or that night.
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D
So Scott Pelley over the weekend sat down to do an hour long interview with the New York Times. And just the fact that the Times would grant him, it was over an hour, I think speaks to something, John, that we all were texting about over the week, which is this wall to wall media offensive, this lust for blood to take down Barry Weiss and to return CBS News to the status quo ante. But then Scott Pelly sits down with Lulu Garcia Navarro of the New York Times. And I listened to this twice. My jaw was on the ground, okay? And I thought, if there is nobody who could make a better case for murdering 60 minutes than Scott Pelley, speaking in his own voice for this hour, he said that his firing was like, he said, quote, it's like your spouse being murdered. He said, some moments of the day I feel fine and there are some moments of the day I just fall apart. You know, this is a man with the financial means. He never needs to work again. He compared the job of journalists to the, to people in the United States military, to firefighters and other people like that. And when he was challenged and said, he said he was totally blindsided by his firing. And Garcia Navarro said, really? You know, you said that your boss had thin qualifications and that his boss, Bari Weiss, had no qualifications for her job and you accused her of murdering the program and of dismantling CBS News. His response was, we used to be able to have conversations like that at CBS News. The difference today is that the people running CBS News will not be questioned.
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C
He.
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D
Yeah, you know, we all remember the time when CBS News was a paragon of viewpoint diversity and that has all just been shut down.
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A
Well, this is an important point because 25 years ago, 25 years ago, one of the first really successful books about media bias in the United States, the title of which was Bias was by CBS correspondent Bernard Goldberg, who detailed 25 years of his experience of being a reporter and a journalist at CBS whose work was constantly going through a process of liberal or leftist censorship and finding it extremely difficult, if not impossible to get his stuff on the air without it being compromised by ideologically driven editors. And that, that, that's 2003, I'm talking about here.
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D
And then 2004, or earlier than that.
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A
I mean, I'm going to look it up. But Anyway, go ahead.
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D
2004 was Dan Rather, the worst humiliation in the history of CBS News airing fake documents to try to take down George W. Bush. Scott Pelig was at CBS News, and I don't remember any outcry like this when the errors were, you know, in the right partisan direction. And then he said, finally, you know, something to touch on quickly, that he had never heard of Bari Weiss before she was tapped to be editor in chief of CBS News, which if there's anything that underscores what a crappy journalist he is and what a media bubble, what, what an ideological bubble this man lives in. I mean, what a case for getting rid of these people, for replacing them with people who are more aware of and who. People they disagree with. The. The final thing that struck me is he said of Tanya Simon, who is Bob Simon's daughter, he was a famous 60 Minutes correspondent, died in a car accident. But his daughter, Tanya Simon, was the executive producer of 60 Minutes who was fired. He said, this was her triumph. She was the first woman ever to be in charge of 60 minutes. Well, you know what? Barry Weiss is the first woman ever, first lesbian woman to be editor in Chief of 60 Minutes. And, you know, I don't see him celebrating her. So the whole thing was just. You really do have to listen to it to fully appreciate it. But he made a wonderful case for getting rid of all of these people.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah, it's sort of like if Jon Stewart were Ted Baxter. That's what he comes across as like. He seems like a dimwit clown, but he has that voice and he does the thing and he's.
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D
He broke down crying several times.
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A
Yeah. So, John, the Voice was extraordinary.
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B
I mean, because it, you know, the way 60 Minutes normally is, you don't hear him and see him speaking for that long at a stretch. But because he was going on and on in this interview, the Voice and the me in became this comic skit, you know, it became Ted Baxter. You're right. And the fascinating thing about when he said he hadn't heard of Barry Weiss before, when he first said that, I said, oh, he's full of it. And then he said, I'm sure that's more of a comment on me than it is on her.
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D
So he's admitting self deprecation.
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B
But no, I think he was admitting he actually never heard of her. I mean, because the reason you would say I never heard of her would be to say she's unimportant and she's. I'm in the big leagues, and she wasn't in the big leagues. So I never heard of her. But he's saying, no, no, it's a comment on me. It's my fault that I haven't heard of her. So to me, it speaks to extraordinary laziness, lack of interest in what's actually happening, which I'm sure is the case with him. He's almost 70. He's worth millions of dollars. He was on a salary of annual salary of something like 7 million a year for years. God knows he didn't have to do much work. I'm sure he got so comfortable not knowing anything outside of what was on that script in front of him that he didn't know who she was.
- [41:28]
A
Look, I mean, to really underscore this point, I mean, it's not just that, like, anyone in America should know who Bari Weiss is. So let's just stipulate that everybody in America shouldn't know who Bari Weiss is. He is a New York journalist living in New York City. Bari Weiss was at the epicenter of a gigantic story long before she founded the Free Press in New York around the George Floyd shooting and this op ed that she was involved in commissioning Tom Cotton to write about the National Guard and Lafayette park that caused.
- [42:06]
C
Maybe he doesn't read the New York
- [42:08]
A
Times, but it's not just the New York Times like it was on the front pages of meaning he doesn't read the newspaper. He doesn't read the. He was the anchorman of the CBS Evening News for seven years. And he doesn't read the newspaper, he doesn't consume news. It was impossible to be a news consumer and not know who. Who Barry was. I mean, that would be like me not knowing who the Prime Minister of Israel is. And I'm not joking. I mean, this was a revelatory.
- [42:45]
D
No, it's literally his job. It was literally his job to know who she is, what happened, what the latest is in your industry. My mom will often ask me, how do you keep up on all this stuff? And I'm like, it's my job. That's a job.
- [43:03]
A
But it's also not the part of your job that's work because it's gossip. You know, your friends are working over there and there's a whole scene and people. I mean, he didn't get five emails an hour saying what the hell is going on at the New York Times like I did. No, maybe he didn't, because he's an idiot. And by the way, this is the other point I want to make, which is he's sitting there crying and weeping and sobbing over 60 minutes. This guy was the anchorman of the CBS Evening News, and he was fired in 2017 unceremoniously and basically said, okay, you're just gonna be at 60 minutes. He's not like a lion of 60 minutes. This is the consolation position that he had after his humiliation at losing the biggest job at the network, the most high profile job in, in all of news, because it was Walter Cronkite's seat and then it was Dan Rather's seat and he was booted. And you know what everybody said? Nothing. Nobody cared. Nobody at CBS said, this is terrible. We need Scott Pelley. Scott Pelley is the voice of our generation. Scott Pelley is our Walter Murrow, Edward Murrow. Like, nobody gave a crap. He was unpersoned in five seconds and they all went la dee da and sort of moved on. And now we're supposed to look at him as a martyr after what he did. I think everybody, every rational person who saw what happened last week, including Lulu Garcia Navarro, who is, she is a good interviewer. So it's important to say that she often coaxes.
- [44:45]
D
It was fantastic.
- [44:47]
A
I mean, her ideological sympathies were certainly with Scott Pelley, but she asked him the question she had to ask him. And the point is, she said, you can't say that to your boss. Like, who says that to your boss and thinks you can get away with it? And he was like, well, I think he did. He thought he could say it.
- [45:05]
D
Used to be able to at 60 minutes. He said, you know, he told a story about Mike Wallace giving Don Hewitt a paper cut, the founder of 60 Minutes, you know, used to be able to do that. I mean, the other thing I think is important for people who.
- [45:19]
C
That's like, that's, that's the CBS version of like getting shivved in prison, by the way.
- [45:24]
D
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is that for the past, like 15 years, 60 Minutes programming has been completely lazy and unoriginal and predictable. And much like its Sunday show, it has only made news when for bias. So it has made headlines. When Leslie Stahl asked a hostage, you know, well, how do you know Hamas wasn't starving too? Or when Sharon Alfonsi, you know, falsely accused Ron DeSantis of being in some conspiracy about COVID vaccines. Or, you know, when they did, at
- [46:08]
A
least they were going to white grocery stores.
- [46:11]
D
Exactly.
- [46:12]
A
Latino and black grocery stores, she said,
- [46:15]
D
you know, or when Cecilia Vega, who was dismissed, did a lazy segment with the anti Israel lunatics who quit the Biden administration over being too supportive of Israel. Who those folks had made the rounds in every other media outlet. There was nothing fresh or original about that segment. These are the times when. Oh, or when what's his face, Bill Whitaker cuts and pastes the Kamala Harris interview to make her sound coherent. These are the times when 60 Minutes has made headlines. Bari Weiss is right that it needs to be better, more original, more relevant to people, and not because it exhibits left wing, predictable anti Israel bias.
- [47:10]
B
My favorite part of the interview, I think, you know what, I'll think of another one in five minutes. But this one just came to me because we're talking about the bias question. When he was talking about how Barry's bias, you know, there's a. He said, and they clipped a billion times. There was a thumb on the scale for the administrator, all that stuff, right? So Garcia Navarro said, well, can you give us an example? So he was talking about the story they did months back on the Minneapolis ice shootings and the protesters, and he went through this whole thing and we were within 18 minutes of, of not getting that on the air. I will never break deadline again. No kidding. You don't have a job. You'll never break deadline again. But anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. So in his description of this is his description of where he saw Barry's bias. And he said after the show, after the package, that the show was put together and recorded and approved,
- [48:11]
D
after the
- [48:12]
B
piece on the Minnesota Ice shooting was approved, Barry wrote this memo. And among the things it says, he says, and I'm paraphrasing, she wanted to make the protesters look more violent. That's some paraphrase. I'd like to see the actual language from which he translates and comes up with that. I mean, we need more violent. We need to make the protesters look more violent. That's what she said.
- [48:43]
A
Eliana mentioned that we were talking privately about this, the larger context in which to place the Scott Pelley story, which is Barry gets this unexpected, gets this job running CBS News. When David Ellison, the new head of CBS, buys the Free Press, her website, for $150 million, integrates it into CBS and gives her the chairmanship or whatever, the editorship of CBS News. The plotline for liberal media people who are horrified by this is this. He's done this because David Ellison and his father are trying to suck up to Trump and suck up to power and get the deal that they want, which is the merger of David Ellison's Paramount with Warner Brothers to go through and not have antitrust problems in the administration. And so Barry was the price of this decision. Barry was the reason the installation was to grease the skids for the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. And this was the deal. And it's a deal. And therefore everything and anything that Barry does, she does, or she says or she's involved in, or any change she tries to make must be viewed in their eyes as. As an effort to strengthen Trump and do Trump's bidding and be Trump's vassal. And therefore any and everything that she does is illegitimate. Right? That is basically. So there are newsletters that we read and you listeners out there fortunately do not read because your brains have much more important things to do but lock on.
- [50:47]
D
Meanwhile, John, can I only. Can I just point out, like, the only editorials basically the Free Press ever runs are anti Trump. And nobody ever points this out like the Free Press is plenty critical of Trump.
- [51:01]
A
Yeah, very importantly. And so when CBS News is a disaster, okay, CBS News, which was the Tiffany Network, it had the greatest news division in the world, blah, blah, blah, blah. CBS doesn't have a streaming service, so it doesn't have new, you know, it doesn't have. Doesn't have any brand extension into streaming or cable. It has its evening newscast, which is the lowest rated of the three evening newscasts. It has a morning show that is the lowest rated of the three morning news shows, and it has a Sunday show that is the lowest rated of the four Sunday shows. And the only thing that still rated On CBS was 60 Minutes. But its ratings, like all ratings in primetime, are in decline, very much in decline. So she changed the anchorman at the CBS Evening News. She fiddled around with the cast of the morning show. I assume at some point she's going to get to the Face the Nation, the Sunday show. And now she has turned her attention to 60 Minutes. They're acting like CBS was in great sh. Was just. Just an absolutely pristine, glorious, wonderful, successful news organization that she is trying to destroy, when in fact it had committed suicide or was in the process of committing slow suicide over the 20 years that I would arguably say began with the story that Eliana cited, which was the fake National Guard story with the memos that supposedly were contemporaneous about George W. Bush's service, that some guy on Eliana's dad's website In a comment 22 years ago said, wait a minute. I think that's in a typeface that doesn't exist anymore.
- [53:16]
D
They were written on word, and word didn't exist then.
- [53:19]
A
It was written in Times New Roman, a typeface that did not exist in 2004. Because it was created for.
- [53:26]
D
In 1978, when Bush.
- [53:28]
A
Right. It was created in 1978. And the memos were supposedly dated in 1972. That story emerged from a comment on Powerline blog. And so. And this and that, I think, was the tipping point at which CBS began its precipitous decline.
- [53:43]
D
And by the way, Dan Rather, who's glorified by all these CBS guys who never said a negative word about him, is out there saying the story's true. He sticks by it.
- [53:53]
A
Yeah. That. The fact. Right.
- [53:55]
C
Well, that was a key part of all this, was that was his unwillingness to just say, I got fooled.
- [54:02]
A
Right.
- [54:02]
C
That was. He got fooled by something, but he was unwilling to say that. And so they tried to carry this. This is what make. Makes him. Made him such a dishonest newsman. This is what made you say, well, if I look back over this guy's career, what else am I going to find? What. How. This is the trust crisis, right. Which is guy taking a story that's not true and, and. And flying it around.
- [54:26]
A
All he had to say was, I got conned and my producer here should take the fall. And then he would have been fine. He didn't say it. And he gave cbs, which had hired an outside firm to investigate the question of how on earth this story, which was intended to change the results of the 2004 election, how this story got done. And he gave them no choice, sort of like Scott Pelley, but to get rid of him because of his own personal conduct. The thing I was trying to point out is these newsletters. There are these newsletters, Lachlan Cartwright's Breaker, Dylan Byers newsletter, Olivier Darcy's newsletter, and Brian Stelter's newsletter. These are media newsletters. Every night go out every night, Literally every night. The lead story for the last four, five, six months has been, what's the latest thing that Barry did that's so terrible? Oh, there's a lot of pressure on Barry. How long will David Ellison allow Barry to survive? Oh, the head of CBS Entertainment is saying, I don't think this is really good for our brand. And it is relentless. And they're doing it because it's getting them the clicks and attention they want from their internal audience. But the Barry narrative presumes that. That CBS wasn't in need of saving, when in fact, any rational person can look at CBS and say the place is going down faster than all broadcast television is going down because it's badly run and maybe because its ideological predilections have closed its eyes and closed its brain to the kind of punchy, interesting, politically incorrect stories that Barry was doing at the Free Press and that Eliana does at the Free Beacon. Because they don't live within the orthodoxy of the news business. That might actually revivify 60 minutes and have it speak truth to power. But the power that needs to be spoken truth to is liberal power.
- [56:34]
D
The anchors. The anchors at 60 Minutes.
- [56:37]
A
Right, exactly.
- [56:37]
D
Power. Okay, right. And by the way, Peli did exactly this. He kept saying in the interview, we were up 9%. You know, Tanya Simon was doing a fabulous job. And then he literally said, counting their online numbers, we reached a third of humanity. We reached a third of humanity. Not accounting for the fact that, you know, with the exception of last year, they've been declining year over year for the past, you know, zillions of years. And also, let's just set all that aside. David Ellison is entitled to acquire the network and put whoever he wants in charge and let her do whatever she wants with it and experiment with this, that and the other cuz she's in charge. Like they're entitled.
- [57:27]
A
And if he doesn't like it, he'll fire her and it'll be over. But it doesn't have to be on their terms. In fact, it's the opposite. They think that they're gonna get their scalp. I think they think blood is in the water. And they will get Barry's scalp. And then the news division will be decimated. It's not like he's gonna then go out and try to find somebody else who will make them all happy. He's gonna say, you guys are more trouble than it's worth. You know, I'm basically canceling the news division. I'm getting rid of the news division because it's doing no good to me. And all I'm doing is getting bad press. And you know what? I'll hire Byron Allen, who I just leased the Stephen Colbert time to. And he'll lease the 60. He'll lease 60 Minutes and the CBS Evening News time for Comics Unleashed. And then I'll sell the time and. And we'll make money and go on like that. Cuz they're not getting the network back. They can go for Barry's jugular all they like, but it's not theirs anymore. And it will never be theirs. And when it was theirs, they ran it into the ground.
- [58:41]
D
And she'll always have the free press.
- [58:43]
A
And she will always have the free press, Seth.
- [58:45]
D
And the money.
- [58:46]
A
And the money. Seth Mandel, you Have a recommendation?
- [58:52]
C
I do. I. I heartily recommend the TV series Legends on Netflix. It is a. It is a. I almost said novelization. A fixed fictionalized take on the early 90s British war on drugs. The near the tail end of the Thatcher premiership. There was, you know, there were heroin overdoses everywhere suddenly. And so being tough on crime and being tough on drugs. The problem is that the British system isn't set up the way the American system is and they don't have the resources for it. And so what they realized though was that for. For it, due to some strange quirk, the British Customs Agency has almost no limits on what it's able to do. It also has no funding really, but the customs has the no rules thing, more so even than MI6 or anything like that. And so they devised this undercover operation to infiltrate the drug gangs. This is the, the, you know, this is the story of that based on that true story which did happen. This is. This is that. It stars Steve Coogan who I think is producing the show also. He's, of course, he's great. Of course, he's wonderful. And of course Haley Squires is great. What I was most impressed by, honestly, was Tom Burke really. Tom Burke plays a character that really does end up being the main character. Really takes center stage, even though this is a team and he is fantastic. Also. The show is genuinely funny and at key moments it doesn't try to be funny, but every once in a while there is a line so funny you'll find yourself laughing out loud. It's also very heartfelt and sympathetic. It's a show with a lot of love for these, the British towns where these people are from. The city, specifically Liverpool is really kind of center stage. London and Liverpool are the two centers of. Of drug gangs in this time. But Liverpool gets a look that London always gets. You don't usually see it into Liverpool and the working class communities there where they grow up, how they grow up. There's a lot of class stuff, but it doesn't spend all six episodes on that obviously. And you get sort of. You get the espionage angle of it with. Sometimes it feels like a spy show. Sometimes it does feel like that. A show on, on the working class of Liverpool and class politics. And sometimes it's got a bit of everything. It really works well. The acting is great. And that is Legend. That is Legends on Netflix.
- [61:41]
A
Okay, so I'm excited because I need a new show to watch, so thank you.
- [61:45]
C
It's very, it's very, very good.
- [61:47]
A
Yeah, very much. Okay, we'll be back tomorrow. For Eliana, Seth and Abe, I'm John. Bob Horowitz. Keep the candle bur. Sam.