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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say, this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary. Go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary Hope for the expect the wor some.
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B
Preach and pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing this way it's going Hope for the best expect the worst.
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A
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast. Today is Thursday, October 23, 2025. I am John Pot Horitz, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
- [02:50]
C
Hi, John.
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A
Social Commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.
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D
Hi, John.
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A
And joining us today, Commentary's contributing editor, columnist and podcaster at the Free Press and everybody's favorite breaking history historian Eli Lake. Hi Eli.
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B
Oh, it's great to be. Great to be back. John, thanks for having me.
- [03:13]
A
So, I don't want to go into. I made fun yesterday of the fact that. That the left was going crazy over the. Over the elimination of the East Wing of the White House and the construction of the ballroom, and they're taking their eyes off the ball of real issues and all of that. But I gotta start with this again today, even though I think it's a ridiculous issue. Because it's a ridiculous issue, and they're now in day three or day four of it. So it turns out doing what Trump wanted to do has meant that largely demolishing the East Wing and replacing it with this ballroom. Right. So. And people were saying, my God, our four, five. Stephen King said people lost their lives defending America, and now Trump is, you know, is destroying the East Wing of the White House.
- [04:09]
B
It's like the War of 1812.
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A
Yeah, it's like the War of 1812.
- [04:13]
B
So.
- [04:17]
A
The East Wing was built in 1942. Other people have surfaced the fact that, you know, in 1949, Harry Truman gutted and rebuilt the White House. Now, I'm guessing, by the way, though, a lot of this is not really being mentioned, that there have been a lot of renovations in and around the White House that we've never heard about for national security reasons, that there's a lot of equipment, a lot of stuff in the White House for dealing with, you know, Black Swan nuclear events and that sort of thing that has occasioned all kinds of work around the complex that actually has gone invisible. Barack Obama had a $300 million renovation project, it turns out, beginning in 2010, this is going to cost $300 million. So I'm only bringing this up because it's amazing how a new story can capture people's imaginations that has genuinely no meaning. Now, I don't like the look of the pictures that I've seen of what it's going to look like when it's done, if the pictures I'm seeing are real and aren't just some weird fake AI thing. But I hate Trump's esthetic. I don't. Didn't like. I don't like what he's done with the Oval Office. I don't like Trump's buildings. I don't like his esthetic. I'm sure it's going to be ugly by my lights and by the lights of a lot of people. But I find the. If you want me to take seriously the idea that Trump is. Is threatening our democracy, the fact that he's making changes in the White House is not the way to convince me.
- [06:08]
D
But. But. So I listened to y' all yesterday and to the, to the discussion, and since I wasn't here, I just. I do. And I'm not playing devil's advocate. This is my honest opinion. The Truman renovation happened because the White House was falling apart. It actually needed a gut renovation, needed updating. So it wasn't. It wasn't just a choice to expand or do any of the things that Trump's doing. I agree with you, John. The scale of what he has done is. Is. I feel it's out of scale, judging by the drawings we've seen. I think in that sense, it'll be. It just won't look as. As good as what was there before. But what was there before was just like cramped office buildings built in the 40s, as you say, it wasn't some important piece. And he has actually been very good about noting he's not touching the original White House structure. It's going to. That's going to be preserved. However, I think that the challenge is twofold. The left loves this because we are now a visual culture, and it is a perfect visual metaphor for what they think he's doing to the country. So that's why you're going to keep seeing it on the front page of all the newspapers. But secondarily, he was not really good about communicating what he was doing. He was a little cagey, oh, we're going to do this. This. I think it would have been less alarming to people if he'd shown it earlier. I mean, he talked about it here and there. It's like that arc he wants to build on Memorial Bridge, on the Arlington side of Memorial Bridge. I think that would be fine. But it's way he just kind of says, as a fait accompli, like, we're doing this and there's no explanation. And it is the people's house. I mean, he's only a temporary visitor, and whoever comes in next can undo it if they want to. But I think those two things, the visual metaphor and a visual culture, and the fact that he sort of always seems to just declare what's going to happen without any sort of attempt to do the explanatory part. And that's his. That's his style. We know this. So I think those two things in combination have led people to be a little hyperbolic in their reaction.
- [07:57]
C
Is it also, do you think, a function of this thing where Americans now pretend to no longer aspire to opulence and that this is so this offends them because meanwhile, they love. You know, they'll fawn over the gowns at the Met gala, whatever, but that's okay for them. But, you know, in general, like this, there's this idea that we're, you know, we're. Equity is sort of incompatible.
- [08:32]
D
Quietly wealthy who don't want to. Don't want to seem to be showy. And he's the old school showy. Guilt gold. Throw everything at it. And they need a ball. I mean, if you've ever been to a White House event that's large, you're in a tent sinking into the mud. Like, it's not a pleasant experience, even if it's a prestigious one.
- [08:47]
A
Yeah. But okay, so. So you call it the People's House, and it is the People's House. That's the amazing thing that we have a country who's, you know, not seat of government, but whatever you want to call it, whose representative building. Right. The synecdoche of the country's government is called the White House. It's not a palace, you know, it's not a chateau. It's not this. It's a White House. It's plain American, you know, low church shaker. You know, it's like unoppulent. Right? That's the whole point of how we think about our institutions of government. They're not supposed to be or it's not supposed to be opulent. That's not who we are.
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D
That's compared to the Capitol, which is much bigger and much grander. That was the contrast.
- [09:35]
A
Right? But the Capitol. Right, the Capitol and the Supreme Court now are based on a different architectural model. Right? The White House is White House's early 19th century and then additions like porticos and things like that that granted it up according to 19th century principles. But it's supposed to be plain, relatively plain. So Trump isn't plain. And I hate his esthetic. I just want to make this clear. Like, okay, I don't like any building that he has ever built, but, you know, that's my taste. And, you know, it's not as ugly as the Obama Library in. You seen the Obama Library? It looks like the building at the end of Mad Max Fury Road that Immortan Joe lives in, that he is storing all the water that he pours down on people's heads. I mean, it's the ugliest building that I have ever seen. Now, I'm not. What abouting. I'm just saying the right had like a hilarious fit last week about the Obama Library. And how ugly it was. The left is having a fit this week about this, but they're trying to connect it to this idea that it's no kings and he's a king and all of that. And I don't even know why I'm feeling the urge to talk about it. But like the pomposity with which people have said things like the taxpayers paid for the east wing and now it's being destroyed. Buildings are renovated. It's like the ship of Theseus, you know, like eventually the White House will not have a single nail from the original White House. Like that's how it goes when you have 200 year old buildings that remain functional and in use. Like every plank, every slat of wood, every is different. And it's okay.
- [11:33]
D
But I'm going to interrupt to say I live in a 138 or 39 year old home in a historic district, which means everything I do want to replace has to get approval. And it's that. And he doesn't have to get approval. And I wonder if some of you should. Frustration get approval.
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A
Don't be citing how you should get approval.
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D
I'm not saying.
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A
I mean I have bad zoning rules are bad. And you know, they're bad because I live in a historic district.
- [11:59]
D
Also that he had to answer to anyone for the choice he's made to make.
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B
Thank you.
- [12:04]
D
Permanent change.
- [12:05]
A
All right. Can I. I live in 120-year-old building and I live in a historic district. And it cost us twice what it should have cost to do legally required renovations to make sure that the terracotta was properly mined from a. From a quarry in Italy that matches the current terracotta. What business is this? I'm sorry, I. So that's part of it. Also is my own libertarian. Good. Let him. He wants to do it. It's, you know, he's. He's out in three years. He wants a ballroom that he can use while he's. He needs to get the construction going. He's not going to go through a Euler process and have a Landmarks Preservation board telling him what to do. He's the president, United states. He got 77 million votes. You know, some schlep from, you know, the architecture department at American University. Isn't. Isn't that. Shouldn't have the power to tell him. I do believe in oversight and, you know, there's a House Oversight committee. I guess it could complain that he's misusing the funds. Except he's not using funds. Public money. He's not using public Money.
- [13:18]
C
Okay.
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B
I think there's an historical analogy kind of picking up on Christine's point. The last real populist president was Andrew Jackson, and his inauguration featured, literally, a riot because he let everybody in the White House. And even though we didn't have photography, video at the time, that was an enormous story that outraged all of the. Basically what would become the Whigs. And this is a similar thing where all you need to see is the wrecking ball on the East Wing. And that confirms the fears of all of these establishment forces of, you know, expressed by the bulwark and leading Democrats, that the populists are wrecking our, you know, Republican and Democratic experiment. And I think it's a similar kind of dynamic, which is. That is extremely provocative. Obviously, the riot was not intentional, and I don't think that Jackson intended to do it. I think maybe Trump's having fun with the trolling, but it's serving the kind of same purpose. It's a story that is meant to outrage and one half of the electorate that has outraged the other half of the electorate who voted for the populist. So, you know, it's kind of part of the cycle. It would. I think it's very similar in another sense from when Biden had, you know, the trans people on the White House lawn, and that was incredibly offensive to half the country. You know, when. Wasn't there a flash, Christine? Is that right? Like, someone.
- [14:48]
D
Yes, one of the. One of the.
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B
My new breasts.
- [14:50]
D
Yes, exactly.
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B
You know, that kind of thing. And that's the sort of thing like, hey, this is the People's House. This is hallowed ground. And look at what they're doing to it. And I think it's a similar kind of dynamic.
- [15:01]
A
It's funny, though. You know, you say it's the People's House, and then you call it hallowed ground. Like that is a. That is a philosophical, moral, and spiritual contradiction in terms.
- [15:09]
B
Correct. But that's how I think America in a nutshell.
- [15:13]
A
I know, but, I mean, we don't have hallowed ground. We don't make idols out of our public buildings and our politicians, and we shouldn't. And so the White House can be renovated, and I may, again be unhappy with what it looks like from the vantage of Pennsylvania Avenue when I go to Washington and like to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue and look at the White House. But that's not what the White House is for. It's not there to be, though we're a visual country, it's not there to be a picture. People know the White House probably best from that angle. From the trailer for Independence Day when the White House is destroyed by the alien spaceship from the top. Like, it's not like people just are sitting there worshiping the White house. It's a 19th century, early 19th century house, again with later edition porticos and things like that. It's not a particularly impressive building on its own. I don't think anybody says it's, you know, it's not even a particularly representative building of the time. If you wanted to represent building of the time, you would go to Boston or, you know, or. Or downtown Philadelphia, where you would see, you know, American architecture developing on its own. I'm only bringing this up aesthetically to say if the situations were reversed and Kamala Harris became president and she wanted a ballroom and she asked Frank, I think. I think he's still alive. She asked Frank Gehry to design the ballroom with curved this and metal and, you know, post modern glass. You know, people.
- [16:55]
D
The mag lose its mind is what would happen.
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A
The Magro loses mind that, you know, Justin Schubert would lose his mind. But they would. People would be like, oh, this is really wonderful. It's really great how, you know, look at this, Frank.
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B
Gary, do you remember the controversy over the Vietnam War Memorial? Right. So it's a similar kind of thing, right?
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A
Vietnam War, that was a. That was a very interesting cultural fight. Because the question about the Vietnam War Memorial was that you were providing a memorial for 58,000Americans who died in Vietnam and that there was no grant. They thought, though I think this turned out not to be the case. They thought there was no grandeur in it and there was no celebration of the martial spirit or the sacrifice. It was just a gash in the ground that went down. So it was like a giant mass grave. And that was the assault on it. When it was constructed and then it went into use, it clearly had an entirely different valence and was deeply moving and a deeply emotional experience.
- [18:07]
B
Right, that's true, but I'm just saying that's an example of how architecture becomes deeply political. Because the original plan for it was this was a pointless war and the only thing worth Remembering is the 58,000 dead.
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A
Right?
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B
There were still Americans at the time. I know because I have a dear cousin who fought in the Vietnam War who resented the idea that it was that everything was for nothing. There were a lot of veterans who felt that way and a lot of Americans who were like, oh, this is some, you know, lefty claptrap. And, you know, look at what they're And I think that there's a kind of similar. So it follows a pattern in that regard.
- [18:44]
D
Well, we should add. We should add that Trump has actually made it a. One of his stated goals to restore traditional classical architecture. And so there's this strange dichotomy where the people criticizing him for destroying the White House ignore that fact. And there are so many ugly, brutalist buildings all over Washington that I would love to see demolished before the. Before any part of the White House.
- [19:05]
A
Well, they should demolish the Obama library before it's built. Like, it's taken them 10 years. And it's, you know.
- [19:12]
D
No, just get the unions to slow their work.
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A
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, okay. But so just to just sort of bring this full circle, you said, like, Trump's been cagey, I expect, for once. I'm guessing that that is not true. What I mean is that when they started doing the work on the structure to build the ballroom, it turned out that it was not architecturally feasible.
- [19:45]
D
No, that makes sense. It's the size. Remember, it started out as being like 600, holding like 5 or 600, and now it's like a thousand. So the s. It's the size and scale part that I think he hasn't.
- [19:56]
A
Been considering, but I think. But I think as often happens with renovations, people start doing the initial work and they're like, you know, the joists, they're just not going to support the. You know, they're not going to. I. I've watched enough home renovation shows to know that when you say, I'm just going to add a room, it turns out that that's a far more elaborate.
- [20:20]
D
Well, right.
- [20:20]
A
So he was telling the American people.
- [20:22]
D
I'm going to add a room so we can have better parties. And now it's almost like adding a wing. So it's the scale of it on such a.
- [20:31]
C
One thing here, I mean, I mean, part of what the resistance hates about Trump is not just his ideology. It's not, if you can call it an ideology, but it's not even just political. It's that he's having such a good time doing what he does that he relishes being in the position that he's in, that he. That he loves to be a big shot. And to them, this is just like an offensive big shot move.
- [21:07]
A
And, you know, it may well be. And if you were a Democrat, nobody would have said boo.
- [21:15]
C
Right.
- [21:17]
A
So is all I'm. Is all I'm saying now, most people wouldn't spend political capital on this or don't want to bother with reconstructing the White House, particularly in a term that's not going to end, which, of course, is what you know is going to end. Right. So you could imagine starting this in, you know, the beginning of a first term if you're Jackie O. With the Jackie Kennedy, excuse me, with the idea that all the things that you're fixing, you're gonna get to experience for eight years, and Trump only has three years. And that's why there's this whole thing about, you see, he's doing this because he's never leaving. He's gonna cancel the 28 election. He's going to run for a third term, and then no one's. Who's gonna stop him. He's. He's a king, he's a dictator, he's the Reichsfuhrer. You know, it all starts.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah, because you're getting at something, I think, really important, because who are the people who are most offended? Because I think if you contrast this, because you mentioned the resistance to 2017 with the women's March and the P hats and everything, there was this assumption that the Democratic leadership spoke for this big movement that called themselves a resistance that included the grassroots left. Now, at this point, the grassroots left is angrier at establishment Democrats than they are at Trump. And you've seen this phenomenon with a kind of horseshoe in the Trump era, which is like, there's a populist right that has common cause, like a Ro Khanna. You know, there's all these figures that you might have assumed in 2017 would be part of this larger Democratic Party coalition. Now, the people most offended, they don't. I mean, are they leading a parade, really? I mean, it's. It's mainly elites. It's not the rest. I don't think that the people, the Graham Planter voters, I'm sorry, the Graham Platner voters, care at all about this. And I think that they probably view it similar kind of way, like, you know, renovations. This is just something that MSNBC is going to get into a lather about and nobody cares. And that's, I think, another thing which sort of exposes them as they're not speaking for half the country. They're speaking for, you know, like a little bit. They're speaking for, you know, a faction, but it's a faction of kind of discredited elites at this point.
- [23:38]
C
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- [25:11]
D
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- [25:13]
A
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- [25:43]
D
They are going to try to make people care, though I noted that in POLITICO's newsletter this morning. Someone's polling, they're trying to get the public. It's like, oh, you might think this is an Inside the Beltway Elite story, but let's look at what the country thinks. And so they did this poll which said half the country finds this horrifying. So I think it's one of these stories, and there have been several of these in the in the second term Trump administration where the elites are angry and they want the rest of the country to care. And sometimes that takes, but rarely does it work as well as they think it will.
- [26:12]
A
Right?
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B
But I'm saying the ICE stuff that gets the base really upset. And in some ways you could see that the leadership kind of they don't know what to think because on the one hand, you know, they're getting the message from most voters that you gotta do something about the border. But on the other hand, this has gone too far and their people are like, no way. But this one just strikes me as just. It's like a fizzle. And that's what makes it kind of ridiculous, because who are they really speaking for? I mean, it's interesting they're polling on it, but I don't think you're gonna get a huge number of folks.
- [26:41]
A
No. So the poll just turns into a. Just a Trump approval poll, that's all. Do you approve of Trump or Trump's building a wing on the East Wing? Do you approve of that or you disapprove of that? They're like 50% disapprove because, like, if you said Trump just. Just took in some oxygen and then he expelled CO2 in his outbreath, do you approve or disapprove of his taking that breath? 50% would say no. Like, so. So it's all. Those polls are always interesting if they feature numbers that are that. That startle you, Right? In other words, like, if 80% of people said, I don't care that Trump is put, the East Wing needs a ballroom, then you would go, whoa, that's sort of interesting. Or. Or vice versa. It's like, okay, that's it. He's going too far. Leave the White House alone, you goon. You know, 70% oppose it. Then. Then it would matter that it is, you know, whatever. He shouldn't do it because I don't like him and I don't like anything he does. Then it. Then it doesn't matter. But I guess these. I mean, it is interesting fights over architecture are meaningful because architecture is something that endures, right? So you build. You know, there are buildings built in the 1960s in Washington that are monstrosities, horrible, that were built, you know, to conform to the fashions and ideas of the elite architecture world of the time. You know, most notably the. The Department of Housing and Urban Development, which is. I wouldn't say it's the ugliest building in. In the world, but that's.
- [28:26]
D
The FBI building is the ugliest.
- [28:27]
A
Okay, so the FBI building is the ugliest building in the world. Like, I wouldn't say museum to the.
- [28:32]
B
Deep state, according to Kaj Patel. Still.
- [28:35]
A
Fair enough. Okay, so there are plenty of, like, hideous, horrible things, and architecture then becomes controversial because it's going to stand there in your line of sight forever, right? So there's this one moment, stunning moment in American cultural history. Back in the 90s when there was this. In the. Now, sadly, of course, no longer there, World Trade Center Plaza, there was this piece of public sculpture called Tilted Arc by Richard Serra, which was a giant long piece of bronze. Like it was like a gash in the middle of the plaza make it. And it was hideous and everybody hated it. And it took and 25 years after it was put in place, it was removed. And there were howls of outrage from the art world and there were, it's almost like a parade of joy among everybody who had to live anywhere near or work anywhere near in proximity to Tilted Arc. So it's not that it doesn't matter. It matters. It's a thing and it is an expression of something. Trump gilding up the Oval Office is an expression of something, but that is impermanent. Like as I said yesterday, President comes in after him, can take it all out and skim coat the walls and it'll look the way it did before he was ever there. So that's nothing, you know, and they did it over a weekend. So it's not, but you know, it's not.
- [30:28]
D
Like these stories, though, help Trump in the sense that they distract from some of the problems he's having within his own coalition, like with his tariff policies and his I'm going to buy Argentinean beef policies, really angering a lot of our beef industry here at home and asking is this really America First? You know, so there, there are a lot of weird coalitional shifts going on right now related to the tariff policy, related to the economy, related to carve outs that the administration keeps promising to various industries to sort of COVID their own. Pardon me ask with regard to the downstream effects of these policies and all of that. I mean, it's covered in the newspapers, but it doesn't galvanize and that's useful for him. Whenever there's a scandal like this, like a made up scandal, it helps him because it just, it takes all eyes of maga, unifies his side and then they stop getting attention for the internal contradictions and the fact that the government still shut down. So there are all these things going on right now that I think he's probably a very, it's a gift to him PR wise.
- [31:28]
A
I want to talk about the Argentine beef thing and a couple of other things. And this is something that Eli and Abe I think are particularly aware of or, you know, or sort of are students of. So MAGA is very suspicious of or it's sort of the Trump coalition populace very suspicious of American soft power and, you know, foreign policy, using American foreign policy to alter both to promote American interests without you, without simply selling arms or being at war or using the tools of American Economic. The levers of American economic power to reward friends, to punish enemies and stuff like that. It all seems like a big conspiracy and it's not fair and that kind of thing. And Trump seemed very much attached to this idea, like, wants to use the levers of power to punish other countries with tariffs, to make them do things that we want. The Argentine beef story is like a very classic American foreign policy move where you do something because you. You have an ally, right? You have an ally in Javier Malay who needs a little help. And you're like, okay, well, what can I do? And he's like, I need an open market for my. To do beef exports. And. And Trump's like, okay, we'll do that. Do that for you. And then there are domestic ramifications because America is the largest, you know, producer, I guess, worldwide producer of beef. And, you know, you don't want to. Beef producers, don't want competition or subsidized competition, all that. But it's interesting because, like, no matter who he's. Who. No matter who the President is, they're always going to default. And even if it's Trump, they're always going to default to the tools of soft power to help them along the way in the world, because you can't withdraw from the world, and you can't. And you need to give Milei help, and you can't just write him a check. You need to fiddle around with your own economy to make it more open to him, to make it possible for him to stage an economic comeback in his own country and say, I've made your life better so that his reforms can go through and be a lesson to other countries in South America about free markets and stuff like that.
- [34:01]
C
I mean, you know, Trump likes to use trade as a. Mostly as a stick, not a carrot. I mean, you know.
- [34:10]
A
Yeah.
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C
So it's interesting. I mean, when he had the Prime Minister of Canada at the White House, he was talking as if all trade competition is bad for all parties. And now here he is, as you say, John, rewarding an ally or attempting to reward an ally with trade. Look, it's fine with me, but it is an inconsistency, I think, in certainly rhetorically, on his part.
- [34:51]
A
Well, that's what I meant when I said, like, he. He thinks of trade as a stick.
- [34:56]
C
Yeah.
- [34:56]
A
Except it's too valuable not to be used as a carrot. Like, even if he's ideologically of the view that you should only use trade as a. As a stick. He's also the President of the United States with things that he needs to get done or things he thinks he needs to get done. And so he's going to violate his own long held principles on these matters if he has to. Because America can't simply face the world with one face. We're too big, too powerful, our interests are too varied and too broad and doing other stuff is too expensive and too, you know, it's like, it's actually, this is the cheapest way to help.
- [35:47]
D
But, but it's not. This isn't just a diplomatic effort on his part to help. Malay beef prices are at an all time high in this country. So flooding the market with less expensive beef would bring consumer, I think the argument is, would bring consumer prices down. But that's where the contradiction that Abe's pointing to is important. Because if he, if he's, if he's for the American farmer, and the American farmers were very much behind Trump in his reelection, he got their vote. If this undermines that, but brings consumer prices down, he's really, it's a juggling act, right? Who, who does he need to satisfy in the, in the run up to these midterm elections more? The farmers or who he's already giving other carve outs to to protect them from some of his tariff policies? Or the American consumer who has continued to see very high grocery prices and particularly things like beef.
- [36:32]
B
Okay, can I, can I offer another theory here that Trump is not ideological and he sees his job as President of the United States in a way is kind of like the mayor of the world, because what he understands is New York politics. And Javier Milei is like a ward captain who's been a good ally and he wants to take care of him. And like, I see evidence of this, like all the time. Even the East Wing thing is a very, that's like what a mayor does. Mayor has to build something. Oh, we gotta do something for the waterfront. And, or like when he was talking, when he made that mistake at first about Hamas, you know, shooting the collaborators in the streets, he's like, well, I understand that because we all have crime problems. Believe me, I know. That's the way he looks at the, he's the mayor of the world and he's making deals with people the way, you know, the New York mayor would have to, like, you know, all right, you're gonna go to Brooklyn, you gotta be polite and, you know, we gotta make this deal. That's how I think he looks at this stuff. And Malay has been a good ally for Trump and it's, it's no, more complicated maybe, than that.
- [37:41]
A
I mean, that's a very good analysis to explain where his own head is with the ice and National Guard stuff.
- [37:51]
B
Right.
- [37:51]
A
Which is, what do you do if there's a neighborhood in trouble? You flood the zone with cops.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [37:57]
A
That's how the Zone, they go there for 30. They go there for a while. They.
- [38:02]
C
They.
- [38:02]
A
They quiet people up, they knock a few heads together. They get bad guys off the street and throw them into Rikers. And then you leave and you have to go to a different neighborhood and. And do it again. And you do it particularly for people who are in this case. What's funny is he's doing it for people who don't vote for him and don't seem to want it. So he's giving to them anyway because the hell with them.
- [38:25]
B
But that.
- [38:25]
A
I think that's a great analogy at a good moment, by the way.
- [38:29]
B
It's like Rudy and the squeegee guys. Remember that? From the 90s? That was the bane of his existence. And he put all these cops on it, and he got rid of the problem. It's like, yeah, you know.
- [38:38]
A
Yeah. And that was unbelievably popular. Everybody hated the squeegee guys. I've never seen anything like it. It was. They weren't even doing anything particularly bad. They were just.
- [38:49]
B
No, they made your windshield dirty.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah, but it was annoying because it was like. It was like a mosquito. It was like having a mosquito infestation. Like, you come to a stoplight and someone comes over to your window and spits on, and then you have to give them a dollar to clean your window. It's like, can't we just get rid of these people? And then he did. Right now, this is a very good moment to switch to the story of last night's mayoral debate here in New York City, or as I would like to call it, the end of all civilization as we know it. So, yes, I watched the whole thing. I assume that you other three did not. So Zoroam dummy is going to be mayor of New York. Barring some black swan event in the next two weeks, nothing that really happened at the debate would lead you to think that there was any kind of momentum shift or anything like that. But. And he did this one yesterday afternoon in a leak, and then at the debate, he did this one very interesting thing, which is that he announced that he was going to keep on Jessica Tisch as the NYPD commissioner. Jessica Tisch has only been the commissioner of the New York Police Department since January Or February. She became popular in the city under Mayor Adams because she came to be known as the rat czar. She was the person who. She was the, essentially the sanitation commissioner and really did come up with stratagems and ways to deal with the fact that the rat population in New York City was going out of control. So then she gets the police department, which has been awash and scandal and has suddenly become very popular. Like she, it looks like she's in charge. She sends cops into subway stations and she does stuff and people like her and everybody. And this is a, this is a complete redo of something that happened. Bill de Blasio announcing that he was going to keep Michael Bloomberg's police commissioner, even though both de Blasio and Mondani, of course, ran as critics, are running as critics of the police department and how terrible it is and how monstrous it is to black people and to minorities and all of that. I don't know how this is going to work. Wins and Jessica Tisch remains the commissioner of the police department because they're ideologically complete opposites. He does not want to prosecute. He does not want to. The, The DA doesn't want to prosecute misdemeanor crimes. And the. And Mandani does not want to arrest people for misdemeanor offenses, which is so dangerous for the future of the city. I can't even begin to tell you because, you know, failure to enforce misdemeanor offenses not only triggers broken windows problems, but means basically that everybody is prey. Like, you know, as long as you don't kill somebody or do something that rises to the level of felony, you get off scot free. And once the criminal element knows that that's the case, they can rejigger their behavior accordingly. It's an interesting announcement, and it shows that he's cageier than people might have thought. But he is not a very swift on his feet politician, it turns out. And this is now the second big debate. And he, he can't improvise. He has the things that he has come up with to talk about, and then he has his dodges and he memorizes his dodges, but he can't answer when someone challenges him on the dodge. So somebody says, you have now, you know, Cuomo says, Andrew Cuomo says, you have never denounced globalize the intifada. And globalize the intifada means killing Jews because intifada is the killing of Jews in Israel. You globalize it means you get to kill Jews elsewhere. And you've never denounced it. And Mamdani's answer was, I have never supported global jihad.
- [43:13]
B
So are we sure about that?
- [43:16]
A
Well, aside from not being entirely sure about that, aside from his rapture, let's just say it's true. The two are not related because global jihad is a jihad against everybody who isn't Muslim. And globalizing the intifada is about killing Jews. So he didn't say, I never said globalize, or I'm opposed to globalizing the intifada, or he thinks intifada is good, is a good. And he has decided that it's too dangerous for him to say for whatever reason.
- [43:46]
C
Well, this is because Kirsten Gillibrand got it wrong about. She said that he, this was months back, had refused to denounce the phrase globalize the jihad or something like that.
- [44:04]
A
Right. So she gave him this. Yes.
- [44:07]
C
Yes.
- [44:07]
A
Right.
- [44:07]
C
And then she apologized.
- [44:09]
A
Yeah.
- [44:10]
B
I'll tell you, there's something I think that's really interesting to watch on this. Normally, his party, the Democratic Socialists of America, must. They must, like a normal party would be so giddy. They finally are getting their most high profile elected politician. This is a. This is a big moment for America's socialists. But what are they doing and what they're. I've already seen it on Twitter. There is a call for the New York DSA to censure Mom Donnie and demand that Tish is sacked. They've already had a discussion, and I know this from our. My colleague and the great reporter Olivia Rheingold. And they've already had a discussion on their internal messaging board whether they should have censored him less than two weeks before the election for saying he would have Zionists in his, in Gracie Manchin in his administration. So. And they, by the way, last year they, they censured aoc, their, their biggest star and their most, you know, important national figure of the dsa because she voted for Iron Dome. So there's going to be enormous pressure from this organization, the Democratic Socialists of America, which doesn't hide the fact that they are a bunch of Leninists, kind of ideologue extremists that can tolerate no compromise. They are not really a political party that is compatible with our system, which demands a kind of compromise in order to govern. They are against that. So I'm very curious. I'm not in any. I think Mamdani's heart is in, you know, Havana and Tehran. So I am under no illusions about where he. What he really wants to do. But he's at least a kind of aware enough politician to know that he can't get everything he wants and that his career will depend on him having success as the mayor of a city. He's got to fix real problems. But his political party, I think you could see a kind of split. I didn't know this. I know this because I'm researching for my podcast on this. Jamaal Bowman, who I think all of us would agree is a socialist and hard left. He let his membership to the DSA lapse because he couldn't take it with these people.
- [46:39]
A
Okay, but. So this is the question about Mamdani, because he is a Democrat and Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo, like, say you're a Democratic socialist, you're a Democratic Socialist, but he is actually the candidate of the Democratic Party. He won the Democratic primary. He is a Democrat now. He wins. He will win as a Democrat. And he has an interesting test, therefore, that the Tisch thing. I don't believe that we should trust that he will pass this test or that. That this test isn't disingenuous. But he could be being done a huge favor by DSA going crazy because then he can lever that to make it look as though he's moving closer to the center. Right when he becomes mayor. Now, ordinarily, that's something people do when they're running for office. They move to the center. The first move to the center that he has made is this Tish pick. That is the only move to the center that he has made since he won.
- [47:41]
B
You don't count. I will have Zionist and anti Zionists in my administration as a move to the center.
- [47:46]
A
Yeah. No, that's what my rabbi said at shul that I. The shul that I left. Zionists and their anti Zionists and my shul and whatever.
- [47:54]
D
Yeah, I was going to say. I'm more cynical when he said that about Tish, who, by the way, I actually wanted to lose her job so she can move to D.C. and solve our rat problem. But she. When he said that, I immediately thought of Joe Biden telling everyone over and over again he would never pardon Hunter. And I just think there's. There's no incentive for him not to reverse course once he wins office because he has to satisfy not just his DSA nuts and who will staff some of whom will staff his administration, but all those young voters who he supposedly energized and galvanized who are going to demand ideological purity. So he's got to give them a few things that could happen.
- [48:31]
A
Look, he's a new kind. He is a 33 year old person who has, who held a nonsense office that he did nothing in for like four years and has no, you know, and, and he's not beholden to anybody. I mean, that's the funny part about this, is that he's actually, if he's beholden to the dsa, they're doing him a favor because they're going to make demands of him that he can't even, he can't meet. Like you say, Jamal Bowman quitting the dsa. Jamal Bowman, likely to be his Commissioner of Education. In case you were ever thinking of moving to New York with children and educating them here in New York in a public school, do not move to New York and do not. If Jamal Bowman is the Commissioner of Education, it's bad enough already. We have a terrible sub. We have a million kids school system in which 70% of kids aren't reading a grade level by the time they're 50. So, you know, it's. The whole thing is a horror show. And it will be, you know, 10 times worse than it is even now. And he will, of course, get rid of selective schools. He will get rid of, he will get rid of gifted and talented schooling and everything will be, you know, a consuming disaster. But he really isn't beholden to anybody. That's what insurgent candidacies are like. He's not beholden to anybody. Which also means that if things go really bad, badly for him. And this is true of Eric Adams as well, the outgoing mayor. He's got no ballast, got no base. You know, his base is like these, you know, 30 year olds who are aggrieved because they don't own $3 million apartments and they think somebody should give them to them. There's a lot of them here in New York who feel this way and would like that. He is also somebody who was asked last night to defend his policy, which is that there should be a $30 per hour minimum wage here in New York City to make things fair and equal. And, you know, why is he being so chintzy? You know, if you're going to say that the minimum wage should be 30, why don't you say it's $75? Like, why, why stop at 30? The economic damage that would be done by a $30 per hour minimum wage would be not that much different if it were 75, since every small business in New York will close with a $30 an hour minimum wage. So they'll just close also if there's a $75 an hour minimum wage and then there'll be no small businesses here whatsoever. While he and his people still think that it's a great idea to block Amazon when it wants to come to New York and employ 40,000 people in Queens, which AOC made impossible. So think about that. They want to do the thing that will kill small businesses, and they don't like big businesses. So they don't like big businesses, and they don't like small businesses, and they don't like billionaires whom Mandani says shouldn't exist. So they want to get all their money from the billionaires by taxing them, who will then leave New York so that their tax rate doesn't quadruple, so he won't get tax revenue from them. So there won't be small businesses, there won't be big businesses, there won't be billionaires. There are just going to be poor people and middle class people who are struggling and landlords who abandon apartments in droves the way they did in the 1960s and 1970s. And. And we're gonna be living in hell.
- [52:10]
B
Okay, so, John, I agree with you. That's the open question. Will he really try to do these things that will do great damage and are gonna be politically really difficult and potentially turn off the rest of the New Yorkers? Because I don't think, you know, the downwardly mobile master's degree holding, you know, gig workers of Brooklyn are a majority of New Yorkers. But there is a way that he can appease the radical base of his and these people. I mean, like, just symbolic stuff. Like, I'm changing the name of, you know, LaGuardia Airport to Leonard Peltier Airport. And, you know, February 16th is going to be Assata Shakur Day. And these are things that are symbolic that will drive us crazy and offend a lot of New Yorkers, but they won't. They might symbolic. You know, and that's the kind of thing that. That's the normal move that you would do, isn't that what, like, Reagan didn't really give serious jobs to, you know, the evangelical right.
- [53:13]
A
He.
- [53:13]
B
But he made sure that they had some positions in the White House. And he would say things that they would say, aha, he's with us. And it wasn't a serious kind of thing. And they hadn't really, I mean, you could argue they didn't really have their policies yet together, but, like, so, you know, you could see him, if he's savvy, but kind of throwing these cultural symbolic bones and counting on us to be furious in the New York Post to say, I can't believe you would honor this person and then moving on and then, you know, making his compromises and not getting as much publicity about it.
- [53:46]
A
Limu game and Doug. Here we have the Limu imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their.
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C
Car insurance and save hundreds of with Liberty Mutual.
- [54:00]
A
Fascinating.
- [54:01]
C
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [54:04]
D
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [54:07]
A
Cut the camera.
- [54:08]
C
They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty.
- [54:13]
B
Liberty Savings Fairy underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts.
- [54:16]
A
I'm Oliver Darcy.
- [54:18]
B
And I'm John Passantino.
- [54:19]
A
We have spent years covering the inner workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood and power.
- [54:25]
D
Now through our nightly newsletter status.
- [54:28]
A
And we're bringing that same reporting and sharp analysis to a new podcast, Power Lines.
- [54:33]
D
Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest.
- [54:35]
A
Stories shaping the industry, explaining why they.
- [54:37]
D
Matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud.
- [54:41]
A
No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis.
- [54:44]
D
That isn't afraid to call it like it is.
- [54:46]
A
We also pull back the curtain via our exclusive reporting to take you behind behind the scenes.
- [54:51]
D
My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he.
- [55:06]
A
Kind of seems a little washed up. Oh, my God. That's Power Lines presented by Status. Follow Power Lines and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [55:23]
C
His radical base is still going to put him to the test.
- [55:28]
B
Sure.
- [55:28]
C
They're going to protest over nonsensical things in aggressive ways and force him to say where he stands on what they're doing, things like that, because they are going to feel so emboldened by having this guy as mayor that they think that they're gonna, you know, they'll be able to, you know, there'll be walkouts every other day over something, you know, and he's, he's, he's. It's gonna be a kind of Frankenstein situation here that.
- [56:01]
A
Look, I think you both hit the nail on the head. He can't raise the minimum wage to $30. The mayor doesn't have plenary power to raise a minimum wage to $30. The question is, what does it say about what he will do with the decisions that he can make on economic matters? So, and this is the ultimate problem or the ultimate hypocrisy of his campaign and the way that the Democratic left talks about these things. He's running on affordability. New York is unaffordable. There isn't enough housing. Right. The only way to build affordable housing that's actually genuinely affordable in New York is deregulation. New York is an extraordinarily regulated real estate market. Building codes are nuts. Have security like fire safety, all kinds of requirements that go above and beyond anything that exists almost anywhere else. It is unaffordable to build an affordable apartment because the amount of things that you have to do to make that apartment gain, what's called a certificate of occupancy, are make it so that it costs too much to rent it for 1500-2000 dollars a month just to defray your costs. If you are a developer, like, you can't you lose money when you start renting? So the only way to do it is either to make. If you want people to build, you deregulate to make it possible for them to build and you loosen the building codes or you deregulate the renovating standards so that people who want to retrofit an office building into a apartment building or do this or do that or do the other thing can do so without incurring outrageous costs. And that is nowhere in the.
- [58:04]
B
He's hinted. He hinted at that in an interview that ran yesterday on Andrew Schultz's Flagrant podcast, which is significant because that's where Trump went in the last two weeks. And that was a very nice interview. And Trump did very well there and probably helped himself very much. And they loved mom Donnie. And at one point, Mamdani in the interview said, I don't think a barber should have to fill out, you know, 26 forms and attend 17 meetings just because he wants to cut hair. So there was a kind of recognition that that was a problem. I'm not saying he's going to do it. I don't know if he really believes it. But it's interesting that he at least. I mean, I saw that side of him in that interview which was otherwise, you know, largely a kind of, you know, like a bro down, but, you know.
- [58:54]
A
Right.
- [58:55]
B
You know, but I think, I think.
- [58:57]
A
Ultimately this debate, what was, what was important about this debate is that New York City's and New York State's politics and this is the. It was once the largest state in the country, now it's the fourth, you know, because, you know, it stinks here to work and to have businesses and stuff like that. So massive population departures, you know, have meant that Texas and Florida have you know, outraced it in terms of population growth and all of that. But, you know, we just. A series of accidents have led us to the political class that we have. We have an accidental governor in Kathy. She won an election, but she only won the election that she won in 2024 because Andrew Cuomo had to quit in 2022 because he was such a monster totalitarian in the way that he imposed Covid regulations and how he dealt with nursing homes. And then people ginned up, and I'm saying this literally, they ginned up a sexual harassment controversy around him, which gave the people who hate him cover to say, we're going to impeach you over sex because they were too chicken to impeach him over being a totalitarian fascist.
- [60:17]
B
I was dropped from the case. I was dropped from that case. He didn't.
- [60:21]
A
It's ridiculous. The. The sexual stuff against him is ridiculous, but that's how he was gotten. And now we have Kathy Hochul, who is a stumble bum and will likely lose the election in 2026 to a republic to Elise Stefanik unless things go so haywire for Republicans next year. Cuomo became governor because of stumbles in 2008-2010 by Elliot Spitzer and David Patterson. Eric Adams ends up mayor of New York City because of the idiotic decision to do ranked choice voting. Mamdani ends up because Adams takes money from the Turks to get flight upgrades and ruins his own chances to win reelection as a Democrat and then takes a pardon from Trump, which really ruins his chances. And then Andrew Cuomo is the only person left standing, and everybody hates Andrew Cuomo. And then this, this, you know, anti Semite socialist Nepo baby ends up winning this election and will end up being mayor. And this is just like 15 years of the politics of a major American state being the result of blunders and accidents and mishaps. You know, it's like duck soup. You know, it's like how, how, how Groucho Marx ends up becoming the president of the country. And in Duck Soup, you know, I mean, it. It's. It's. It's an embarrassment. And, you know, we shouldn't. New York shouldn't remain the capital of the world and the world financial markets because we don't deserve to remain the capital of anything. Just have a lot of people living here, and a lot of them are like, whiny, petulant, but we have a great subway system which will also be, you know, destroyed. So. And I have to. I have to stay here. So I would Be very happy if things got better, but they clearly are only going to get. Get worse. Can I make recommendation? I just watched the fifth episode of Slow Horses, the Apple TV show. We've recommended it many times in the past. This is the fifth season of Slow Horses and I'm recommending it because it's the best season of Slow Horses since the first season. And last season, season four was terrible and I thought and had this ridiculous plot about, you know, a guy, you know, breeding super soldiers at a chateau in France who turned out to be the secret father of one of the stumblebum MI5 spies that we are following. And it was, that was like, oh my God, like kill the show now before anything gets worse. And this season has been really, really good. And if you want to watch it, you can watch Apple TV very and you haven't watched anything before it. Apple TV has a very useful thing on the page for Slow Horses where they will, they will do a full recap. It's a five minute recap of seasons one through four to explain who the characters are, what the situation is and what the stakes are. Because each of these seasons is actually a self contained. It's based on a self contained book by McCarron. Anyway, it's really good. And the best thing about this season is that Gary Oldman who was almost like consigned to a tertiary role in last season's goings on is now totally the center and focus of this series and is like out and about in London. Instead of sitting in his office, he's going around, he's doing investigations, he's. And it's like one of the great all time TV performances. Gary Oldman as Jackson Lamb and so Christine, are you watching?
- [64:16]
D
Oh, of course. So it's one of my, it's probably my favorite show right now. And I agree with you about last season, although the character you dislike was played by Hugo Weaving who's amazing.
- [64:24]
A
Like he was amazing. But it was a ridiculous. But it was.
- [64:29]
D
Yes, I agree, I agree. No, this season is so much better because it's just more lamb, which is what I always say.
- [64:33]
A
More lamb. More lamb.
- [64:34]
B
And.
- [64:35]
A
And a new stumblebum antagonist and an actor named Jamie Bamber who was playing the head of. What would you call it, like sort of the head of the CIA. Like he's the head of intelligence in the, in the government. And Jamie Bamber played Gaius Baltar on, on Battlestar Galactica, which was also one of the great all time TV characters on the, on the 2003 Battlestar Galactica a worm, a weasel, a Machiavellian politician, monster, spy, turncoat. And here he is playing an unbelievably stupid politician. And he's so good. He's so good. He's so good and so funny. And this season is also very funny. One character who seems to be the target of a terrorist plot gets taken out as a result of essentially a psych. There's a sort of psych gag death that I can't. It wouldn't make sense for me to describe, but it's such an interesting and unexpected take on what happens on spy shows that he ends up dead as a result of this happenstance that you go like, you know, this is, this is what TV ought to be if it, if it could be like just this kind of comic invention and cleverness. And also Arab terrorists. So I'm very happy to report that it's full of Arab terrorists because we need to see Arab terrorists represented as Arab terrorists. Terrorists in our.
- [66:13]
B
In our interesting care.
- [66:14]
A
And these organizations have spent 20 years making sure that people don't portray the people who are actually, are worldwide terrorists as terrorists. They're Libyans. So it's not quite what you would think, but nonetheless, Arab terrorists back in popular culture. Eli Lake.
- [66:39]
B
Thank you.
- [66:40]
A
Your latest podcast is about how Britain lost.
- [66:44]
B
Well, yeah, it's. It's how the country that gave us modern free speech became a censor's paradise. And I'm looking at like this phenomenon where you can see it on the Internet, but there are, there are an average of 33 arrests per day in the United Kingdom for social media offenses. And there are all these examples of people who will basically get harsher sentences for what amount to word crimes versus crime crimes. So how did that happen in the country that gave us John Stuart Mill, the Magna Carta, George Orwell, et cetera. That is what the current episode is about. And our next episode will be on Mamdani and the history of the Democratic Socialists of America and Michael Harrington. And I'm in the middle of that right now writing it, and it'll be a good one. I should thank you, John, for a great, illuminating conversation this week on people to interview and ways to think about Harrington, who is, you know, not, not the greatest, how should we say, public intellectual of the 20th century, as some would have you believe.
- [67:51]
A
Fantastic. So that's Eli Lakes breaking history. Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. Yes, wherever you get our podcast rate and subscribe. By the way, I should say, I never say this, please go to Apple and give us a five star review. Don't go to Apple if you're not going to give us a five star review. Don't go to Apple and write a review that says I clear my throat too much. Everybody knows I clear my throat too much. Abe clears his throat too much. Fine. You don't want to. I'm going to say this again. You don't like it that we have to clear our throat sometimes. You don't have to listen. Really. Stop sending me these dumb emails about how I clear my throat. You think I want to clear my throat? You think. You think that's my goal is to clear my throat in front of you people?
- [68:31]
D
I. I sense a merch opportunity here with some sort. I'm just.
- [68:34]
B
I'm gonna.
- [68:35]
A
Oh, my God.
- [68:35]
D
Think about that.
- [68:37]
B
Actually, it's worse than that.
- [68:39]
A
Lozenges, something commentary. But if I sucked a lozenge, now that we're on YouTube, I'd be like, have a lozenge in my mouth. Like, how would that look? Then you'd be like, what's in your mouth? Get that thing out of your mouth while you're podcasting. You can't win is what I'm saying. You can't win. It's free entertainment. Please enjoy it. If it's not free entertainment. If you are a subscriber, I will listen to you. And I've always said this. I will listen. I will be very accepting of your criticism and apologize for clearing my throat. But if you're not a subscriber, subscriber. Beat it. Shut up. I clear my throat. I'm almost 65 years old. You're lucky I'm here at all. Okay, Back tomorrow again, Eli Lake, thank you. And for a team, keep the candle burning.