The Commentary Magazine Podcast

Episode: The Epstein Rabbit Hole
Date: February 12, 2026
Host: John Podhoretz
Panel: Abe Greenwald, Christine Rosen, Seth Mandel, Eliana Johnson, Samira Munshi

Episode Overview

This episode grapples with the release of the “Epstein files” – 6 million pages of Department of Justice material related to Jeffrey Epstein – their damaging societal precedent, and the wider fallout for individuals, law enforcement, U.S. politics, and American elites. The hosts also discuss the culture of elite moral complicity, the collapse of Congressional oversight, antisemitism rising in right-wing circles, and the evolving self-destructive politics of the Republican Party.

The tone is a blend of incredulity, outrage, dark humor, and somber warnings about the growing breakdown of American civic and political culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files and Dangerous Precedents

[06:42 – 13:45]

• Background: Congress passed a law mandating the public release of all DOJ materials concerning Jeffrey Epstein. The resulting document dump included millions of pages – not just evidence, but raw tips, rumors, and unsubstantiated claims.
• John Podhoretz’s Warning:
  • The release is “a horrible precedent” that undermines confidentiality long considered central to law enforcement process.
  • “If it’s a precedent, it means that no one is safe.” — John Podhoretz [08:39]
  • Innocent people are being named, smeared, or losing jobs for the mere presence of their names in uncorroborated material—even if their only “crime” is an email or tenuous association with Epstein.
  • “It is an outrage and a scandal that this is the decision of our political system.” — John Podhoretz [12:41]
• Eliana Johnson’s Perspective:
  • The root problem began with political actors (namely in the Trump administration) publicly suggesting the contents included damning “client lists” and evidence of child trafficking that didn’t really exist, and hyping up the files as vessels for transparency and justice.
  • “This is not transparency. […] It is resulting in grave injustices and a mad witch hunt comparable to the excesses of MeToo—and I think worse.” — Eliana Johnson [14:18]
  • Most of those harmed seem guilty of nothing more than poor judgment or proximity to power.

2. Weaponization, Partisan Spin, and Witch Hunting

[13:45 – 17:15]

• Bipartisan Cynicism:
  • Republicans pushed for the release to attack Democrats like Bill Clinton; Democrats joined hoping for damaging information about Trump.
  • Now, both sides wield “the Epstein class” narrative to shame political opponents, with Democrats starting to use it as a campaign cudgel—even though most of those named are Democrats.
  • Eliana Johnson: “People just perceive that these are the people in power who were doing this. There’s some kind of nefarious corruption going on around Epstein, and Democrats are going to campaign on this against Republicans and call Republicans the Epstein class. And I think it will actually be effective.” [16:07]

3. Moral Complicity vs. Legal Culpability: The Elite Trap

[21:58 – 26:46]

• Why Did So Many Associate with Epstein?
  • Privilege and moral rot at the top: “The world before our eyes is a world in which this guy [...] that led him to have to be registered as a sex offender, that in the world in which he traveled, that was not disqualifying.” — John Podhoretz [22:18]
  • Drawing parallels with Weinstein and industry-wide complicity: Power, charm, money, social status, and beautiful women provided irresistible temptations.
  • “It’s a judgment call for people to continue to hang out with someone like Epstein… That is a moral judgment. It’s about character and personal judgment.” — Samira Munshi [24:29]
  • Society’s inability to draw lines around morality vs. legality is a major contemporary ailment.

4. The Enduring Mysteries and Our Obsession

[26:46 – 32:45]

• No Satisfying Resolution:
  • Despite huge speculation, no prominent figures except Epstein and Maxwell were charged; neither massive conspiracy nor clear financial crimes could be proven.
  • The circumstances of Epstein’s wealth and death remain opaque, allowing conspiracy theory to flourish.
  • Key Point: Public and media hunger for secrets, scandal, and the inside story is driving destructive behavior (both institutionally and individually).

5. Elite Corruption, Public Cynicism, and Trumpian Populism

[32:45 – 38:43]

• Why Did People Gravitate to Epstein?
  • Eliana Johnson posits practical (tax schemes, actual services) and social motivations. Epstein was “probably fun to be around”; status and pleasure were powerful lures.
  • Christine Rosen extends this to a culture-wide moral failing: “This is a danger. It’s a bad compulsion… You begin to overlook all kinds of indiscretions of the others who are up at the top with you.” [37:18]
• Trump’s Appeal Reframed:
  • Trump successfully channeled public cynicism in 2016 by stating that he knew the “Epstein class” from the inside and could clean up the system.
  • “I’m the only one who can clean up the Augean stables because I’m the only one who was living in the Augean stables… It’s going to remain a powerful message as long as the Epstein matter remains in the public eye.” — John Podhoretz [31:30]

6. Collapse of Oversight & The Congressional Clown Show

[44:12 – 51:13]

• Shambolic Oversight Hearing:
  • The panel describes the recent House hearing with Attorney General Pam Bondi as a “clown show” and “embarrassing.” The hearing deteriorated into shouting matches and grandstanding, with little substance or effective oversight.
  • “None of them actually had to ask the questions that should be addressed to Pam Bondi, and she never had to answer them. [...] It was a clown show. It’s embarrassing. I personally was embarrassed watching all of them, every last one of them.” — Samira Munshi [48:48]
• Systemic Breakdown:
  • Eliana Johnson: “There’s no active, like, sense on her part that Congress can and should conduct oversight of the executive branch. This was a giant middle finger.” [50:37]
  • John Podhoretz: “If historians of the future want to mark a moment at which our republic began… showed signs of its crumbling, that hearing would have been one of those moments.” [49:59]

7. Antisemitism, the Right, and Social Media Influencers

[70:36 – 80:51]

• Carrie Prejean Bowler & the New Right:
  • Prejean Bowler’s public anti-Zionist stance on the Religious Liberty Commission, using classic antisemitic rhetoric, is called out as reminiscent of “Father Coughlin and mainstream Catholic antisemitism … in the 1930s.”
  • “She issued a statement… this is rhetoric that I frankly have not heard in the course of my almost 65 years on this earth. This is a predecessor form of rhetoric.” — John Podhoretz [71:06]
  • Panelists debate whether such performative acts are merely trolling for influencer notoriety or actually signal deeper societal rot.
  • Christine Rosen: “I’d like to think this particular brand of performative outrageous Jew hatred is hitting a kind of absurd stride… where it’s sort of revealing itself as imbecilic. … [But] I think every moment, every such moment is a big moment.” [73:41]
• Social Media Acceleration:
  • Podcasting and social media create rapid, global feedback loops for radicalization and prominent hucksterism.
  • Abe Greenwald: “There is a movement of sorts of these people, and there is a kind of guru at the top, which is Tucker Carlson…” [83:07]
  • All agree: despite the “imbecility,” this new wave of right-wing antisemitism is dangerous and growing, crossing boundaries between left and right, united by “hatred of Jews.”

8. Republican Self-Destruction and Legislative Drift

[56:49 – 67:19]

• Electoral Slide:
  • The GOP is losing local and state legislative races. Trump’s polarizing style and his demand for total loyalty is devastating candidates in swing areas.
  • Republican attempts at popular legislation (like voter ID reform) get bogged down by added, Trumpian measures that make them unworkable and unpopular.
  • “You snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” — Samira Munshi [64:59]
• Entrenched Dysfunction:
  • Republicans fear crossing Trump, even when strategy and polling say otherwise. The hosts fear for the party’s long-term prospects and American legislative health.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Precedent and Catastrophe:
  • “If it’s a precedent, it means that no one is safe… It is an outrage and a scandal.” — John Podhoretz [08:39, 12:41]
• On Moral Complicity:
  • “It’s a judgment call for people to continue to hang out with someone like Epstein… That is a moral judgment. It’s about character and personal judgment.” — Samira Munshi [24:29]
• On Public Cynicism:
  • “What is the disease within this American elite that made up billionaires, major industrialists, … all of these people who seem to have no problem being anywhere near him?” — John Podhoretz [30:08]
• On Congressional Oversight:
  • “If historians of the future want to mark a moment at which our republic began…crumbling, that hearing would have been one of those moments.” — John Podhoretz [49:59]
  • “This was a giant middle finger. The response to every question is an insult to the lawmakers. And that's the way this is going to go from now on.” — Eliana Johnson [50:37]
• On Antisemitic Rhetoric:
  • “This is rhetoric that I frankly have not heard in the course of my almost 65 years… This is a predecessor form of rhetoric dating back to the 1930s and Father Coughlin…” — John Podhoretz [71:06]
  • “She wants to be an influencer, a podcast anti-zio something … and this is exactly the career path to making it—make a stink in a big way, get a lot of social media.” — Samira Munshi [76:10]
• On Republican Political Downturn:
  • “Everything is going badly for Republicans when people are asked to judge how they feel about Republican versus Democrat somewhere…another moment on the, on this road that Republicans seem to be walking down into like a Buzzsaw or a wood chipper.” — John Podhoretz [63:08]
• On the Social Media Age:
  • “Podcasting is global. Everything is… There’s no such thing as failing in a small market first or succeeding in a small market first so you can get a much larger following much faster.” — Christine Rosen [80:56]
• On Conspiracism as Norm:
  • “He mainstreamed in a way that no one else ever had before, the conspiracist view of how the world works… Everything is corrupt.” — John Podhoretz [45:51]

Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 06:42 – 13:45: The release of the Epstein files and their disastrous precedent.
• 13:45 – 17:15: Weaponization of the files, partisan dynamics, and the “Epstein class” in political rhetoric.
• 21:58 – 26:46: The culture of elite complicity; moral judgment vs. legal guilt.
• 26:46 – 32:45: Our obsession with unresolved mysteries and the lack of criminal consequences.
• 44:12 – 51:13: The Bondi hearing; breakdown of congressional oversight and norms.
• 70:36 – 80:51: Rise of right-wing antisemitism, Prejean Bowler, social media, and performative hate.

Summary Takeaway

The release of the Epstein files is seen by the panel as a grave institutional mistake that threatens innocent people, undermines legal standards, and reinforces populist, conspiratorial narratives. The episode connects the Epstein scandal to broader themes: the moral failings of America’s elite, the breakdown of political norms and oversight, and the growing mainstreaming of antisemitism on the right. The hosts highlight the psychological and political damage wrought by both transparency for its own sake and insatiable public curiosity. The show closes without glib answers, instead sounding warnings about American society’s current trajectory.