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- [00:04]
Matthew Continetti
Hope for the best, expect the worst.
- [00:11]
Chris Stirewalt
Some preach and pain Some die of.
- [00:14]
Matthew Continetti
Thirst the way of knowing which way.
- [00:18]
John Podhoretz
It'S going Hope for the best, Expect.
- [00:21]
Chris Stirewalt
The worst, hope for the best.
- [00:25]
John Podhoretz
Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Wednesday, June 25, 2025. I am Jon Bud Horowitz, the ed editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
- [00:37]
Abe Greenwald
Hi, John.
- [00:38]
John Podhoretz
Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth. Hi, John Washington, Commentary columnist and director of Domestic Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.
- [00:48]
Matthew Continetti
Hi, John.
- [00:49]
John Podhoretz
And joining us today, Matt's colleague at aei, host of the Hill Sunday columnist for the Hill, our friend Chris Stirewalt. Welcome back, Chris.
- [01:03]
Chris Stirewalt
I'm always proud to be the token goyim here on the Commentary podcast.
- [01:08]
John Podhoretz
It is, first of all, it's goy. First of all, singular goy. Very important. So I'm glad to be able to offer you this little piece of Jewish wisdom as the Jews of New York flee from for the island of New Caledonia.
- [01:26]
Seth Mandel
Chris, we accidentally left the oven on.
- [01:30]
John Podhoretz
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So here we are. It's a pretty apocalyptic moment. I don't know what to say about this. I understand it's a primary election in New York City. I don't think anybody should have any real hope of any sort that the November general election in New York City will be won by anyone other than the now candidate for mayor on the Democratic lines or on Mamdani, though you're going to hear people talking about this in the next couple of days in their panic over Mamdani's victory. That Andrew Cuomo, who was humiliated last night in one of the greatest displays of God, is not mocked humiliations will not in fact run on another line for mayor. I don't think if he gets is.
- [02:30]
Matthew Continetti
That news you're breaking?
- [02:30]
John Podhoretz
No, no, I'm not breaking.
- [02:31]
Matthew Continetti
You're making a prediction.
- [02:32]
John Podhoretz
I'm making a prediction though. He walked off stage and we are not seeing him again in politics. Let us hope that's number one. Number two, Eric Adams, the mayor is running as an independent. He is Mamdani's dream come true as an opponent. Mamdani can spend five months snacking on Eric Adams body, talking about how he's a Trump tool. Trump pardoned him. He's an agent for a foreign power. He ran the city into the ground. The affordability crisis got worse under him. Like that is just like he is like a punching bag. Or the Washington Generals playing the Harlem Globetrotters. And Curtis Sliwa, who will be The Republican nominee who did wonderful things for the city as a kind of voice for law and order in the 1980s and became a talk show host, is a lovely person. I like him. He is not a serious contender for this nomination. So I think people need to understand that Zoram Hamdani is probably is 85% of the way there to being mayor. And that is very, very, very, very, very, very bad. Like it is bad in 17 different ways. Chris Starwalt, we need to talk about what this means for the Democratic Party that in. I was going to say it's the most important election of the year. I mean there is a gubernatorial election in New Jersey and there are a couple of other races that are important, but in terms of the highest of high profile races and it suggested, you know, what it suggests about America and that I'm. This is probably it. You wrote about this last week before and we've been texting over the week and we both were very skeptical that Mamdani could pull it off. And he not only pulled it off, by the way, he won by 70,000 votes in a million vote primary. He won by 8 points. And if there weren't this weird ranked choice voting system, he would basically everyone has said he's going to be mayor. Cuomo conceded the victory to him. Brad Lander, who is the number three, he's eventually going to end up formally the nominee. But we didn't think that he was going to get there and the polling didn't say he was going to get there. And this is another incredible miss for polling. Incredible miss for polling. Every single poll except for the last one had Andrew Cuomo winning by anywhere from eight to 12 points.
- [05:14]
Matthew Continetti
In the Emerson poll which came out the other day showing Mondani had a chance, but. But it actually had the race much closer.
- [05:21]
John Podhoretz
No, not only did you have the race closer, it had Cuomo winning on the second rank.
- [05:25]
Matthew Continetti
No, in the first rank in the.
- [05:27]
John Podhoretz
First round he was up, but he was up by three points.
- [05:29]
Matthew Continetti
So just to.
- [05:30]
John Podhoretz
Just won by eight on the first. Right.
- [05:33]
Matthew Continetti
Just, just a level set here, we should tell our audience that we are referring to the New York mayoral primary which here the results are as follows. As of today, with 93% of the vote in Zoran Mamdani, the self described democratic socialist, anti Israel, I think John fairly described him as communistic small C in his economic program. He has won on the first round with 43.5% of the vote. Andrew Cuomo, the former New York governor, the scion of a political dynasty Coming in with a pathetic 36% second place. So about a 7.8 points if you round up victory for Mamdani. And just, just one more point of fact, which I think is interesting.
- [06:22]
John Podhoretz
One more point of fact is that Zorab Mamdani was moved into his apartment. I met, I met him.
- [06:31]
Matthew Continetti
I could have influenced him.
- [06:32]
Chris Stirewalt
Don't think this is you.
- [06:34]
Matthew Continetti
It's like, it's like you. It's like John and Tucker Carlson. No, it's weighing on my conscience. Just like how you gave Tucker his first big job in journalism.
- [06:44]
John Podhoretz
That's right.
- [06:44]
Matthew Continetti
I do want to mention though that the distribution of votes is interesting. I don't want to downplay the extent of Mamdani's political upset. It is, it is major. But we should note that right now Cuomo is leading in the Bronx and Staten Island.
- [07:01]
John Podhoretz
So by to be a Democrat leading in Staten island, which is the only Republican borough.
- [07:07]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, but the Bronx is interesting, isn't it? Because it's where Trump had the rally.
- [07:11]
John Podhoretz
That's right.
- [07:12]
Matthew Continetti
And you know, he actually won on this first round. The vote tally I'm looking at by.
- [07:17]
Seth Mandel
It's where AOC pretends to be from.
- [07:20]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah. 19 points.
- [07:21]
John Podhoretz
She doesn't represent the Bronx. She represents.
- [07:24]
Seth Mandel
No, but she was calling out them Cuomo and the others yesterday.
- [07:30]
Matthew Continetti
My point is this, is that what I think what may have flipped this from a race where everyone is expecting to Cuomo eke it out. There's a lot more to say, which we will say, but to a race where Mamdani has this extraordinary upset is the Asian vote in Queens where you know, you would think that the working class voters there might be more reluctant to embrace a socialist candidate, but not. And I think that ethnic politics here played a big role because as.
- [08:02]
Seth Mandel
Up.
- [08:02]
Matthew Continetti
First with that reminded us today, if he wins in November, Mamdani will be both the first Muslim mayor of New York as well as the first Indian mayor of New York. And I think that plays a large role in his success as well.
- [08:18]
John Podhoretz
Just quickly on the Asian point. One of the many, many ways in which Mamdani is terrible and will be terrible for this city and was elected really by single childless people. I mean that is his base is he has absolutely horrific ideas about education, all of which go to destroying any ability for the New York City schools to educate the gifted and talented. He wants to end gifted and talented programs. He wants to destroy the high performing high schools. He doesn't have the power to do the second. That's actually a state role. It's A complicated issue. I don't want to get into it, but Asians, of course, care about education more than anything else. And. And one of the many 10 billion failings of the horrific Cuomo campaign, which we don't need to spend any time on, is the complete inability of them to go at Mamdani in that community and in the communities of families explaining what kind of a danger he posed to the schooling of their children.
- [09:23]
Matthew Continetti
But the campaign matters. Candidate quality matters. And I think what we saw on display is that you put up a 33 year old guy who knows social media, who knows TikTok and Instagram, and can get smaller dollar donations and focus on cost of living, up against this dinosaur who ruined New York with his COVID policies and was forced out of office by sexual harassment charges and doesn't actually run a campaign. And it gives kind of a pathetic concession speech where he talked about how inspiring Mamdani is. Yeah, now it kind of makes sense to me after the fact. Right, Right.
- [10:07]
John Podhoretz
Well, there was one debate and Mamdani blew Cuomo out of the water. Cuomo was watching Cuomo in the debate. He was rusty. He was halting. He's never been a good debater. He's a bad debater, he's a bad speaker. He's a great Machiavellian behind the scenes goon operator. That is. His great political gift is like Trump, though. Trump does it in public. Scaring the crap out of people, threatening them, bending them to his will with his psychopathic aggression. But when he actually has to come and present himself to the public, he often. He blew his first gubernatorial chance by saying that George Pataki had been holding Rudy Giuliani's coat and that he was a disgrace and stuff like that. He was a very, very infelicitous speaker and public and representative of himself in public. And Mamdani was dazzling, I have to say. I mean, I. There's nothing about him that I admire, but he is smart, he speaks really well, he's fluent, he knows his issues, he knows how to hide certain types of things. And Cuomo was just like a deer in the headlights at that debate. However, I still thought institutionally that Cuomo would pull it out. Not because I thought this city was still a city of middle class families. And I no longer believe that to be the case. Now, what we saw in 2013, with the rise and victory of Bill de Blasio has now come totally to fruition. This is a city of two cultures. There is a culture of the under 40 and the culture of the over 40 and the middle class that used to be the backbone of the city in the boroughs has in fact been hollowed out. They don't live there anymore. They can't afford to. And that is the affordability crisis. Middle class people leave New York City when they have kids. They have to. And so, and so there is no vote for sensible, rational policies because single people are happy to hear their rents are going to be frozen. They don't care about schools. They don't seem to feel particularly unsafe. So Cuomo's issues was safety and like, you know, getting things done and stuff like that. And Mamdani said, I'll, I'll freeze your rents and I'll give you lots of free things. And then we can get to the question of how important his radicalism is. But, Chris, we have, we have neglected you, and you actually know something about politics.
- [12:43]
Chris Stirewalt
Less and less, I would say less and less all the time.
- [12:46]
John Podhoretz
Okay. The older one gets, the less one knows anyway. But. So this is not your city, and this is not, this is not sort of like the core of your, of your knowledge base. But, you know, you can see patterns and like it. Nobody else can. Well, what does this mean in large.
- [13:06]
Chris Stirewalt
If you, if you look at the map, you can see that the old coalition for Democrats in New York, which was union workers, government workers, lots and lots and lots of government workers on the outside, right, pushed to the edge of the city versus the core, right? So it's this very stark map where you see the closer you get to the city's core, with the obvious exception of the Upper west side and the Upper east side, the closer you get to the city's core, the more men. Doc. Ma' am. Donnie succeeds. And then as you pull back and you go out into the outer boroughs, the better Cuomo does. And look, I think that Matt has hit it exactly right, which is there is a version of a old line, old school Democratic candidate who could have beat Mamdani, there's no doubt about it. But one of the byproducts of our time, of the Trump era in politics, is that people say not only are there second acts in American life, they're third and fourth and fifth. And why would I ever go away? Why should I have to go away if this guy didn't have to go away? If Donald Trump can do it, why should I have to do it? And you see it in Adams and you definitely see it in Cuomo. I can't tell you that. So the, the, the old line Democrats rallied behind. She's a city, has a city office. Adrienne.
- [15:00]
John Podhoretz
Adrian Adams.
- [15:01]
Chris Stirewalt
Adams, yes, Adams.
- [15:03]
John Podhoretz
No relation to Eric Adams.
- [15:04]
Chris Stirewalt
So, so the, the, the, the fight was supposed to be between Adrian Adams and Mamdani. Right? You have the vested interests of government workers union members. You have the old, old line Democrats versus the young challenger. She is an imperfect candidate in many ways. Would she have done better if Cuomo, would she have done better than Cuomo? Of Cuomo. Cuomo hadn't gotten in the race. I don't know. I don't know how that all would have played out. But I can certainly say that you, you referenced Virginia and New Jersey, which I say with love. New Yorkers do not recognize those are probably the more indicative contests this year. Right? Those are, those are places that are more like the rest of the country. And in those states, Democrats in those places, Democrats chose correctly. Right. They made in competitive environments. They chose candidates that would, to use a term, that should be permanently banned from the language, should be excised from the language. Meet the moment. Right. So they, they chose people who were moderate, squishy Democrats in both New Jersey and Virginia. And they'll probably both win. But.
- [16:28]
John Podhoretz
Oh, I don't know.
- [16:29]
Chris Stirewalt
Go ahead.
- [16:30]
John Podhoretz
Can I just make it interesting? So, yeah, so the candidate, the race in New Jersey, as you say, is between Mikey Sherrill, a congressman, congresswoman, who is also a fighter pilot, veteran. So she is the moderate that you speak of against Jack Cittarelli, who is a kind of generic Republican who shocked America by coming within three points of winning in the last gubernatorial election against Governor Murphy as a kind of COVID protest vote. The first sign that there was a, like a Covid protest vote. And he had the last poll, it had him down by 16, and he only lost by three. And now he's running again. And Dan McLaughlin of National Review made a very interesting point last night on Twitter, which is that the Mamdani candidacy is very visible to people in New Jersey and in particular in New Jersey, in the swing parts of New Jersey, in the New York metro, in the New York broadcast area. Now, granted, people don't watch broadcast television as much as they used to, but old people do, right? And minorities do.
- [17:41]
Chris Stirewalt
Those are my viewers you're talking about. So just take it easy. Just take it easy. And our reader, okay.
- [17:46]
John Podhoretz
And our readers also. So, but five months of anti Mamdani. If the, if Eric Adams, the independent and sleep of the Republican actually get money together to go negative on Mamdani and the coverage in New York City's political stations and everything is about the Mamdani candidacy that could help Citarelli. If the national mood says this is the future of the Democratic Party, nationalizes the New Jersey election in Cittarelli's favor. Mikey Sheryl wants to say, I don't like Trump and I'm, but I'm, I'm reasonable. And Chiarelli can say, the Democrats are not reasonable. Look who they just, they're a communist who hates Israel. Is gonna, is, is gonna be the mayor of New York City. And the biggest, you know, and so do you know. Wow. And so, you know, if, if it's a two point race again or a three point race again, that could be.
- [18:46]
Chris Stirewalt
Very helpful to certainly will have its effects there. There are no doubt that it will have its effects and for sure. But I'm just saying that when we look at an off, off your election, low turnout races, New Jersey and Virginia, Democrats chose correctly. Right. They made, they made the correct kinds of choices. Moderate female, pro national security, pro normalcy. Right. So they made those choices. New York, which believes with some good reason that it is the center of the world that is the headquarters of the earth, doesn't care about those kinds of considerations. Right. If you're in New York and you're talking to a city that is what, 85% Democratic, you're not saying, what are we going to do to make sure that Curtis Sliwa doesn't slip past us in the fall? You're saying, what is the message I want to send? What, how do I want to express myself? And because Mamdani generated such a surge. Look, his mother is a director, film director. And his spots were very, very good. Right? His spots were very, very good. Jumping in, doing the polar plunge in a suit. He, it was made, it was a made for sharing, made for social media kind of campaign that was done extraordinarily well once he had that momentum. And what was his obvious error? The most obvious error that I can think of for Mamdani was globalizing in a Fada. Right.
- [20:39]
John Podhoretz
So we're going to get to that because I'm not sure it was an error at all, but go ahead.
- [20:43]
Chris Stirewalt
Well, I'm just saying as from the practice of politics, he is, he was given total carte blanche from his base. Say anything, do anything. We believe you. That you're a communist. We believe you. We're not worried that you're going to sell us out later on. You're in, you're 33 years old, you're Muslim, you wear skinny suits. We, we know that you Are one of us. You're a former rapper, we believe in you. So he used that latitude to reposition himself and soften. And basically his message was, I want to try stuff. If the stuff that I want to try doesn't work, we'll go back. I'm not worried about it. It's cool. We can, we can, we can try things. But I'm not, I'm not a hardliner. So he's doing this interview with the Bulwark and he's talking to the kind of anti Trump white folks up upper income, college educated. These voters who delivered this victory in large part delivered this victory for him. And he's talking to him and he gets the question about globalizing Intifada and he can't do it. He won't say the correct thing politically, which is, I'm not running to be the mayor of Tel Aviv, I'm running to be the mayor of New York. You can try to drag me into this stuff, but that's not what New Yorkers are voting on. He could have steered right around the question, but instead dove right into it and was like, well, you know, in a fada, the inner fada is in the eyes of the, of the beholder and who are we to judge? And I thought, are we really doing that? What was it? It was that jihad means struggle. Are we doing, are we doing that? I didn't think we were still doing that.
- [22:33]
John Podhoretz
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- [24:16]
Matthew Continetti
Hi everyone, I'm Matt Evert, CEO and.
- [24:18]
John Podhoretz
Founder of Crash Champions. Welcome to Pod Crash. On Pod Crash, we'll dive deep with.
- [24:24]
Chris Stirewalt
Industry leaders and game changers because we.
- [24:26]
Matthew Continetti
Want to uncover their secrets to success.
- [24:29]
John Podhoretz
We're going to explore everything from building trust, building a rock solid team to.
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Chris Stirewalt
Champion blue collar work. And we also want to talk about.
- [24:36]
John Podhoretz
Creating explosive growth in your business. You'll hear actionable advice, real leadership and.
- [24:43]
Matthew Continetti
Business lessons along with what's worked for.
- [24:45]
John Podhoretz
These incredible people throughout their career.
- [24:47]
Matthew Continetti
We're even going to go in depth.
- [24:48]
Chris Stirewalt
Into what I call a Champions mindset. This is the very philosophy that I use to champion people and take Crash.
- [24:55]
John Podhoretz
Champions from a single shop to over 650 locations today. And now I want to share that information with you.
- [25:02]
Chris Stirewalt
Watch or listen to pod crash on.
- [25:04]
Matthew Continetti
YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:10]
John Podhoretz
Okay, well, we are now it is time. Not only are we doing it, not only are we doing it, but Abe Greenwald, I think you and I believe and we can articulate now I think we should why globalize the Intifada and the fact that he founded the chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine at Bowdoin College.
- [25:31]
Chris Stirewalt
Thanks, Matt.
- [25:32]
John Podhoretz
And is a supporter of the encampments and all that. Why that was a feature and not a bug and why that was key to his victory and not something that made it worse.
- [25:44]
Abe Greenwald
I think the most depressing aspect of this is that it means we should have no illusions about the people with whom we share this city, who they are and what they think. And when we look on pro Hamas protests and genocidal chants and anti Israel rhetoric, we see one thing and they don't see it at all. They miss it all. They don't see the horror that, that. That we have been focused on for the past 20 months.
- [26:32]
John Podhoretz
I think it's worse than that. Go for your phrase. Because it's not just that they don't see it, but for a critical mass of them, that was a bonus. That was a positive. I in a blog post that we now I just put up on our website@complyarma.org called the threat of Zoran Hamdani, I say he is the encampment candidate. I don't think that the fact that he represents not the same New York of the last hundred years where every time New York tips dangerously into Narishkite and craziness, that it's pulled back from the brink by sensible voters who just want to like have public safety and you know, be able to ride on the subways and have their. And feel like the city is on the right track. That. That those people, as I say, exist less and less. And that for a not inconsiderable number of people in that 43% of the vote, his secret sauce was being a jihadist or being a jihadi sympathizer, not something that he needed to work around. And that the reason that he didn't say I forswear my global, globalizing the intifada or something like that is that he knows that perfectly well. He had 4,000 out of state donors. Who do you think those people were? No one had ever heard of him before. They were organized by care. They were organized by, you know, the same people that scared the crap out of the Biden and Harris people in 2003 and 2004 in Michigan. They raised money for him. He raised 8. He raised $8 million in the city alone to get the match. That's also. There were 18,000 donors in New York City. Who do you think those people were? You think they were people who are worried about affordability? If they're worried about affordability, they wouldn't be donating political money. They were people who liked him. Not because he was talking about how to make the city better for poor people. Because that's not who voted for him. It's because he was a representative of the most left wing view that you could have and run in this race.
- [28:56]
Matthew Continetti
I'd like to make just two observations at this point in time. The first is Mamdani is everything the far right said Barack Obama was in 2008. They said Obama was a Muslim and Mamdani is. They said Obama was born.
- [29:17]
John Podhoretz
He was a foreign born. He was foreign born. And Mamdani was a socialist.
- [29:23]
Matthew Continetti
He said he was a socialist. And Mavdadi is. They said he was anti Israel and anti Semitic and Mavdadi is. It's this amazing turn of events where the left wing lurch that Obama inaugurated in the Democratic Party is ending with the caricature that was illustrated of Obama has now become a reality and is now the frontrunner to be the next mayor of not only America's largest city, but a city with a Huge Jewish population and which has a huge Jewish history as well. To have this guy who said, who won't, won't shy away from this slogan, globalized intifada, which means violence and death, by the way, to be the front runner for Maris. Absolutely incredible. The second point I'd like to make is this is like, I don't know, the Ice Bucket Challenge or something for the abundance Democrat people. Because here are the abundance Democrats or two of them. You know, the authors of the book Abundance, Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, they're going around everywhere saying we have to. Democrats need to be the party of abundance and more supply and we need less regulation. And the way to address the cost of, of living crisis is to have more things and have more housing and have more energy. Fewer restrictions on development. And what do Democratic voters do? They go and they say, oh no, we want this guy who, Mamdani, who has the government run grocery stores. It's like a public option for food is how he put in one of a public option for food.
- [31:10]
John Podhoretz
Because we need.
- [31:11]
Matthew Continetti
We can't have food where there's no food. Where's the food in America? In New York City. Where is it? I can't have it. You know, and we're all struggling. We're so thin in the United States of America in New York City. We're so struggling to eat in this country. Right. So we need a government run groceries. Right.
- [31:28]
John Podhoretz
He's saying we need to freeze the rents.
- [31:30]
Matthew Continetti
I will freeze the rents. Which if there's one issue in economic literature that everyone, everyone says shows that rent control is a bad policy because it creates shortages and therefore increases prices among most of the population. Those are his two economic issues, by the way. Oh, and by the way. And by the way, here's, here's this Democratic Party.
- [31:58]
John Podhoretz
Yeah.
- [31:58]
Matthew Continetti
The Mikey Sherrills, you know, and I don't believe that they're actually centrist for a second, but that's the way they portray themselves. The Abigail Spamberger here. They're trying to run away from all the hot button cultural issues. And here's. And here comes mom Donnie and say, yeah, that trans issue that's alienating 80% of the American people. I want to spend $65 million a year on gender transition surgeries for everyone. And I'm going to make New York City a sanctuary for the trans. A sanctuary for the trans. It's mind boggling that the Democrats would do this. And it is such a perfect opportunity for the Trump Republican Party.
- [32:37]
John Podhoretz
Okay, so we can talk about what's Good for the Trump Republican Party. There are two things I think that Barack Obama point is, like, you've got to write. You got to write that like today because it's fantastic and don't let somebody steal it when they listen here. I'm just speaking here as an editor. It's number one. Number two, the abundance Democrats agenda, right? And as you're talking, I'm like, oh, okay, so it's the Sam's club Republicans. So 2005 ran Salaam and Ross Dath that wrote a book called Sam's Club Republicans reformist Agenda. Go family friendly, you know, speak to the working class. All of that that Trump in a weird Trump ended up doing 10 years later, but with policies in reverse of the ones that Ross and Salaam articulated in the, in the book. And that we have here is the abundance Democrats are like, we need America to be a place that builds housing and does lots of good things. And here's to be fair, I guess to do that you're gonna have to like, have fewer regulations and do some other stuff. We don't like that because. But we have to do it. And like there's Mamdani, like, you know what, we're gonna give everybody everything for free and tax rich people. He wants to raise the corporate tax. He wants to raise taxes in New York not only on the upper income people, but Also on core 40%. Now again, there's nothing wrong in New.
- [34:08]
Chris Stirewalt
York City that can't be fixed with a $10 billion tax hike. That's what I say. That's what history shows. Can't be fixed with the $10 billion tax hike.
- [34:18]
Matthew Continetti
More taxes.
- [34:19]
Chris Stirewalt
May I make two points about the two points? No, no.
- [34:23]
Seth Mandel
The reason all that matters so much, the tax, you know, raising taxes and the possible flight of middle class and upper middle class. And all that is because in New York City, for every job on Wall street, four jobs like in the service industry and elsewhere depend on it. You know, the Wall street, in other words, creates jobs within New York City not just through taxes and the ability to fund the arts and sciences and all that. So you don't just get museums from rich people. That's what a lot of progressives seem to think, that you get museums from them. And we'll figure out how to get museums and libraries without rich people. But jobs are created because of the money that they put into the local economy. And so you're going to lose jobs, not just, you're not just going to lose the tax money that comes with chasing someone off of Wall street and, I don't know, up to Connecticut or whatever. You're going to lose the jobs that the working class in the city depend on. You're going to have nobody left in the city if you drive two classes out of it and therefore lose all the jobs for the third class.
- [35:34]
John Podhoretz
But this is the key to the social. The fact that Mamdani is in fact a socialist leaning toward communism. Socialists and communists don't talk about getting good jobs for people. That's not. They want a government to take money away from the. And give it to people. And so everyone is equal. Right. And assign people things and they're perfectly happy for people to be indigent and indolent and sit and play video games in their. You're not allowed. That's moralizing about. About. About the underclass or something like that. To talk about what's important for them is work and having jobs and the dignity of work and all that. That's very offensive. How dare you. The only problem with them is they don't have money. So what you're supposed to do is give them money and then they'll have money.
- [36:22]
Chris Stirewalt
I do want. And so that I do want to talk about New York's coming Snake Plissken esque future, which you're. You're always. John, you're always welcome here. You're always, you're always welcome here.
- [36:35]
John Podhoretz
Thank you.
- [36:36]
Chris Stirewalt
But on the. Matt's two excellent points. The people, the ideas. People in parties fail to understand that the people they're supposed to be convincing of their ideas are the politicians. It's not the voters. Right. So you're supposed to. Matt and I work at a think tank, other think tanks. The job is to say if you win, we have some ideas that might work. That's the idea. Right. The 1% of 1% of the people who pay attention and follow stuff. I cannot recommend enough Yoni Applebaum's great book Stuck, which is next to the abundance movement, talking about that stuff. There's a lot of interesting good ideas that are happening among left, left of center elites right now. But their job is to convince politicians that these are good things to do. These are not ideas that all of a sudden the people in Bedford Stuyvesant are going to go, abundance. I'm here for abundance and I love abundance. On the other point, the Obama point. So negative self definition and mirroring is such a powerful force in politics. Right. So I think that John is right that you must write Matt the piece about. Everybody's just assigning you work Today, no.
- [38:09]
Matthew Continetti
One looking at my schedule today. Okay, I appreciate that. Thank you.
- [38:13]
John Podhoretz
This is an emergency. If you don't, you know.
- [38:17]
Chris Stirewalt
Emergency punditry, pundit emergency. But the people become the, the activist cores of political movements eventually become the things that their critics said that they were by negative self definition. And this mirroring effect, as one side becomes more radical, the other side becomes more radical. Donald Trump is what Democrats used to say. Republicans were right when they were talking about George W. Bush, when they were talking about Mitt Romney, when they were talking about these, these folks, they were like, you can't say that we're sexist. You can't say that we're this way. You can't say that we just da, da, da, da, da. And eventually they got what they asked for. Democrats are so, and this is, I think the essential point and I think, John, this goes to your point about the New Jersey gubernatorial election. How do national Democrats react to this? What's the, what is the response among national Democrats? Because right now there is a fight going on between Alexandria Ocasio Cortez as the standard bearer for what they say the future of the Democratic Party is. And on the other side, question mark, over on the other side is a question mark. Gavin Newsom is sniffing around it. He's trying it. He'd like to do it. But we know who the progressive left, the Democratic socialist left. They have a candidate, they have a platform, they have an idea, they have a young and charismatic person who is doing it. And so if you are on the Bernie Laff progressive left, Elizabeth Warren left you, the message that you correctly take from New York's primary is it can be done, right? This can be done. They've been telling us for years that we have to settle for less. We have to settle for Joe Biden, we have to settle for Hillary Clinton, we have to settle for less. But we can actually have it all. So they're going to be all jazzed and empowered by what they saw in New York on the, the other side of the Democratic Party. I think this, and the last thing on this being Cuomo's voters look a lot more like the Democratic Party nationally than Mamdani's voters, Cuomo's voters. I haven't looked at everything, but I am sure that Cuomo won the black vote. I feel pretty confident that Cuomo won the vote amongst black voters. When we look at 20, 28, are we going to see a story where it falls again to the black voters, particularly women, to try to save the Democratic Party one more Time. Right. Is that the dynamic that we're going to see? And what will Gavin Newsom, what will I, I can't even mention Gretchen Whitmer with a straight face. But what, what will, what will whoever the mainstream, what will Normie Democrats take? What is the lesson that they'll take?
- [41:35]
Matthew Continetti
But can I just. This is why I'm a little bit reluctant to fully embrace John's position that the general election is a done deal from.
- [41:45]
Chris Stirewalt
I agree.
- [41:46]
Matthew Continetti
Simply because, you know, I mean, if you're a black voter, a member of the black working class, and you see that the Democrats have nominated this socialist kid with nutso ideas, aren't you taking a second look at Mayor Adams? I mean, I don't, as we always talk about, I don't live in New York City. I have not lived in New York City since 2003. So I just don't know how big, badly Adams is situated right now. And I understand he's very unpopular. But don't you think, especially if Cuomo drops out and it's just the three person race, that there might be a way for Adams to kind of say, look as bad as I am, I'm.
- [42:29]
Chris Stirewalt
Better than I think. It depends. I think it depends very much on you identified Cuomo, what does he do? Next question is what does Trump do? Donald Trump has been invited in to the New York of the city of his birth. He has been invited in to the New York mayoral election. So the right thing for Adams, of course, is for Donald Trump to not say anything, to stay away, to not touch Adams, to get as far away from Eric Adams as possible. And then the third thing is, what does Adams do? Does Adams, who is, will call him ideologically, he is as ideologically flexible as he is ethically flexible. Does Adam say, okay, well then I'm going to make a coalition of the Upper west side, Upper east side, the outer boroughs. I'm going to do it and I'm going to run as a mainstream Normie, law and order. I'm going to keep the streets clean. I'm going to lock up the criminals. I'm gonna do that.
- [43:35]
Matthew Continetti
So that's how he, that's how he ran in 2021. And of course, the reality was not.
- [43:40]
John Podhoretz
Quite as what he was telling.
- [43:42]
Chris Stirewalt
I think, and I should just, I'll shut up by saying I think that I give mam. Domini Mamdani 75% chance that he'll be 65. 70. I'll go 70% chance that Mamdani wins the general election. But I think there's the door is open for Adams here to, to make, make some kind of a run, but it will depend on all those other variables.
- [44:11]
John Podhoretz
Okay, so I got a. I got to disagree with you on a couple of things here briefly. One is that Mamdani won Bed Stuy in Brooklyn, which is partially now a white, you know, hipster neighborhood, but it's classically an old line Black neighborhood by 43 points.
- [44:35]
Matthew Continetti
Brooklyn was his best.
- [44:37]
John Podhoretz
Crown Heights, which is somewhat Hasidic, but mostly black, by 25 points. Yeah, he won Harlem by 19 points and he won East Harlem, which is Latino and black, by seven points. So I don't know where this black people voted majority for Cuomo is going to be. The neighborhoods don't show that number. And here's the other thing to just to be crushingly morose here. Mandani got 432,000 votes on the first ballot. Adams won in 2021 with 750,000 votes. What that means is that Mamdani is already more than 60% of the way to Adams's vote total just in the first round of.
- [45:30]
Matthew Continetti
In the general election.
- [45:31]
John Podhoretz
In the general election, Adams versus SLIWA. SLIWA got 312,000 votes. Adams got 750,000 votes. That was the entirety of 2021. The Democratic Party primary here alone got almost the same vote total as the general election.
- [45:49]
Matthew Continetti
Close to a million people voted yesterday, which is wild.
- [45:52]
John Podhoretz
So more than a million or earlier. Yes. Right. So I don't know that this. I think the city is not the city that we thought it was, is what I am. I'm saying. And by the way, it's also important to point out that Latinos make up a larger part of the minority population, are the plurality in the minority population in New York. Not, not, not African Americans.
- [46:14]
Matthew Continetti
Absolutely.
- [46:15]
John Podhoretz
So I don't know what that means either. I don't, you know where this goes. Adams is at like, has a popularity rate of 9%. He dropped out of the demo. Here's, here's the problem for Cuomo. Cuomo was running and his idea was he would spend six months beating up on Adams and sort of slide into the mayoralty. And then Adams gets pardoned by Trump. The world goes, you know, which he wanted because he was indicted for this, taking bribes from Turkey. He drops out of the race and suddenly there are nine candidates in the race. Adams is not one of them. And then they all turn and spend six months beating Cuomo up. The idea for Cuomo was he was going to beat Adams up because Adams was the Mayor. And he would say, let me be the mayor, not this guy. And Adams decided to, you know, leave the field and say, I'm not even going to try this. I'll run in the general as an independent. Cuomo did not have a political strategy after that. And then the anti Cuomo vote coalesced around Mamdani, the anti. And like, it's a very. It's a. So Cuomo's theory of the race was blown up by Adams. And I don't know that Adams. There's no evidence that Adams. Like I said, Mamdani could get a million votes based on these numbers. In other words, like, if every Democrat votes for Mamdani, except for the Jews in November, he'll get 800,000 votes right there alone. That's more than Adams got.
- [47:53]
Chris Stirewalt
Go ahead, Matt.
- [47:55]
Matthew Continetti
Just to say, you know, and I agree, look, you're the authority on New York.
- [47:58]
John Podhoretz
I'm not really.
- [47:59]
Matthew Continetti
I'm not litigating this. I'm just kind of, you know, coping as Mamdani's generation says. Some cope right here. Okay. On the Commentary podcast, you know.
- [48:12]
John Podhoretz
There.
- [48:12]
Matthew Continetti
Is a history of an independent candidate winning the New York mayor's office. Now, he. He happened to be a billionaire who spent tons of money to shape the race. But isn't there some ability, you think.
- [48:25]
John Podhoretz
Because he was a Republican nominee, he ran as a.
- [48:29]
Chris Stirewalt
First time. He ran.
- [48:30]
John Podhoretz
Ended up running as a nonpartisan majority mayor.
- [48:33]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, right. Okay.
- [48:35]
Seth Mandel
When he ran, he changed party registration. After he won, I think he won as a Republican.
- [48:41]
Matthew Continetti
He won two more times as a nonpartisan candidate, meaning that he beat the Democrat, whoever. And again, different city. I get it.
- [48:50]
John Podhoretz
Okay.
- [48:50]
Matthew Continetti
But I just feel like. I feel like Eric Adams, for as unpopular as he is, is. I agree. He is. He's a little bit.
- [48:59]
John Podhoretz
He's slippery.
- [49:00]
Matthew Continetti
He has more guile, I think, than Andrew Cuomo. And a certain. To me anyway, a certain bizarre charisma. Like, I find him amusing and that. I never find Cuomo amusing.
- [49:12]
Abe Greenwald
I actually, I actually completely agree.
- [49:14]
Matthew Continetti
I agree with you.
- [49:15]
Chris Stirewalt
But.
- [49:15]
Matthew Continetti
So I just think, like, him against Mamdani would be an interesting race. I'm actually looking forward to that a little.
- [49:20]
John Podhoretz
But I.
- [49:22]
Abe Greenwald
But overall, John, I agree with you. I think another aspect of this, and this is also something that Trump largely introduced to our politics left and right, which is this. Just this overwhelming desire to scramble all the pieces.
- [49:37]
Chris Stirewalt
Amen.
- [49:37]
Abe Greenwald
You know, that's it. Like. Like both Cuomo and Adams are known entities with known histories. And that is not nearly as exciting as this guy, you know, who Takes every picture, you know, eating on the subway and, you know, and saying globalize. The intifada is. Means struggle and whatever else. It's the, it's the idea that you can, you can dive into the unknown.
- [50:07]
Chris Stirewalt
Now.
- [50:09]
Abe Greenwald
Even though to us, I don't think he's particularly small.
- [50:12]
Matthew Continetti
Just small point on that.
- [50:13]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah.
- [50:14]
Matthew Continetti
I do think for. Especially for the audience for our podcast, we have to come to recognize that TikTok may be a weapon of mass anti Semitism. And it already is.
- [50:24]
John Podhoretz
Yeah, right.
- [50:25]
Matthew Continetti
I mean, I do think this just kind of underscores that. And so it is. It is a shame that President Trump continues to prolong TikTok's existence in the United States in contradiction to a overwhelming congressional vote to ban it and a Supreme Court ruling upholding that legislation. And this is a big problem for American Jews and the pro Israel community.
- [50:52]
John Podhoretz
That is a very good point.
- [50:53]
Seth Mandel
And we said, you know, I wrote a piece of this a while ago, which is that what people. I don't think people understand the reach of China's role in this, in the anti Semitic promotion, because that China can. Beijing can decide. It wants people to see something and a billion people see it. The TikTok thing is an audience that most people don't understand the magnitude of or the control that the, that the. The Chinese Communist Party has over this stuff. And the reason reach that it gets to from there and then pings on further type of, you know, when we talk about the propaganda war, China has, you know, China has the mother of all bombs.
- [51:37]
Chris Stirewalt
Hello, this is Dr. Rob Williams, executive director of the USC Shoah Foundation. Survivors of the Holocaust have long been the bravest voices speaking out against anti Semitism and all forms of hate around the world, whether it's European anti Semitism.
- [51:49]
John Podhoretz
Of the 1930s and 1940s, or the.
- [51:51]
Chris Stirewalt
Anti Semitism we see on our streets and campuses today.
- [51:54]
John Podhoretz
We'll explore it on the USC Shoah.
- [51:56]
Chris Stirewalt
Foundation's new podcast, Searching for Never Again. We'll hear stories that are heartbreaking and.
- [52:00]
Matthew Continetti
Stories that are inspiring every Tuesday on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever fine podcasts can be found.
- [52:13]
John Podhoretz
Well, there are two aspects of TikTok and Mamdani and AOC that are really important here. One of which is that, you know, these studies have shown that there are 50 times or 50,000, some insane number more of sort of like anti Israel sites and accounts and things posting relentlessly on TikTok. So that if you are interested in the subject, if you show interest and the algorithm picks that up, they will just feed you pictures of dead babies and say that the Israelis killed them and they're actually from, you know, they're actually from Bosnia 30 years ago and stuff like that. And it also, for the skilled users of TikTok, allows people who are deeply controversial to sand down what seems controversial about them by being cutesy and likable. So that's AOC cooking in her kitchen. That's Mamdani doing the polar plunge or going and eating at a halal stand or doing whatever it is that he does. Those are, that is a way of making yourself palatable and presentable and likable. And it's very studied. And of course, you can edit it to a fairly well since how long is a TikTok? It's like less than a minute usually. So you, you literally can take out any single second in which maybe your expression is a little harsh or whatever and sand it all down like a commercial. It's like these are, these are, these are brand commercials for individual people. And they are presenting themselves in the best possible light with an understanding of what it is that is attractive to the young people who are overwhelmingly users of it. And so AOC success in becoming a massive fundraising boon is all conditioned on her remaining appealing through this connection that she has that has nothing to do with politics.
- [54:13]
Matthew Continetti
And remember, as President Trump has pointed out, she rarely does interviews.
- [54:17]
John Podhoretz
Right.
- [54:18]
Matthew Continetti
And particularly, I don't think she's ever done a hostile interview. I'm not clear. So it is. This is this kind of brand management, form of brand management. And just to what Chris was saying earlier, when you elevate, when you get to the national level, it's much harder to maintain the control of the brand, even though you've established it through these means of technology. And that's why I think that this. Just to return to earlier theme of the conversation, that's why I think this is a DEFCON 5 level event for the Democratic Party. But forget about New York City, which, it's definitely a disaster for the city, but for the Democratic Party, you think about this. There is a feeling that after Trump's election in 2024, the Democrats would go to the left quite significantly. And we saw, we saw AOC teaming up with Bernie Sanders getting the massive crowds, AOC leading the charge now to impeach Trump for the Iran strike, and AOC endorsing Mamdani and crowing about his victory. He'll, if he wins in the general election, as you rightly predict, he probably, he probably will, he will become the face of the Democratic Party. And what does that, what does that mean for a party that is trying to reckon with the meaning of 2024? I think it's, it's extremely dangerous for them. And it sets himself up for a potential McGovern moment in 2028.
- [55:48]
John Podhoretz
Absolutely. But it's not just dangerous for, for them. And that's where we have to get into the ultimately the most, the crushingly morosest moment possibly in the history of this podcast, which is that if the Democratic Party's journey over the last 15 years toward not only anti Zionism, but anti Semitism, which we saw, as we constantly say we saw, really we had this shock moment of realization in 2012 when the floor of the Democratic convention booed down the idea that Jerusalem was Israel's capital, as Barack Obama wanted the Democratic platform to say. That was 13 years ago this summer. And we have a candidate succeeding in New York City, as I say in part because he is a post 10-7-Anti Semite presence in our lives. Democrat parties, one of the two major political parties in the United States. It is moving toward the Labour Party, toward the, you know, toward the Liberal Party in Canada. The, the question now is what is it like for American Jews who are, remember, part of the Democratic coalition? They're not even like Republicans yet, though I think they will be. The way Jews in Britain have become part of the Tories. I've been predicting this forever, but I mean, there are moments and there are moments on October 7 followed by Mamdani is such a moment since 40% of the Jewish population of the United states lives within 40 miles of 30 mile radius of New York City. We are. Abe, last night, you, I mean, you were in a. Maybe this is 19. You know how liberals keep saying this is 1933, you know, because of Trump, you know, Bob Kagan and said this is 19. This is the, you know, they're, they're.
- [57:45]
Matthew Continetti
Storming the right dictator because he is in, he's asserting control of the military.
- [57:51]
John Podhoretz
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Matthew Continetti
The president, the commander in chief is asserting control of the military. That makes him a dictator, according to the Atlantic.
- [57:59]
John Podhoretz
That's the anti Trump idea, right? That's the anti Trump idea. The. How about this. How about this is crystal knocked. It's not quite crystal knock. Fine. There wasn't the Munich conference and there was no sedate land and all that. But this is DEFCON 5 for Jew. I mean, I don't know DEFCON 5 for Jews.
- [58:21]
Matthew Continetti
Go ahead.
- [58:22]
Abe Greenwald
I'm still where I was last night. I'm, you know, I'm still like in shock in a way, because I don't know. You know, there's a serious question here about the future of Jews in America. If one of the two parties goes all in on anti Semitism and anti Zionism and if it happens after 20 months of pro jihadist mobs and firebombings and shootings and, you know, I mean, like, I don't, you know, this is where you look around and start to go, how much more do we need, you know, how much more information intelligence here do we need to say this is the environment, the atmosphere is not conducive to Jewish life.
- [59:23]
John Podhoretz
Right. So let's put it this way.
- [59:25]
Seth Mandel
Now make two points along those lines. Sorry, I make two points. The first is that the question that we had in the past cycles was whether the Democratic Party successful establishment intervention in the primaries against Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush, whether that was a sign of, of the establishment's strength and willingness to fight or whether that was a last gasp, you know, and then after that, there were no more defenses to break through. And it looks like the second, the first time around we had said, well, they, you know, they can do it. They can. And now it looks like the, the progressive left has figured out a way around that. And so suddenly, what was, what were optimistic data points? Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush losing in Democratic primaries. Stop being optimistic data points. The second thing is that about New York specifically. Throughout history, Jews tend to congregate in cities like this as a sort of sanctuary city. Right? And that sanctuary city never holds. Now, I'm not saying we're going to see pogroms tomorrow. What I am saying is that New York City is this. This the Odessa of this century, right? The place where artists and, you know, the liberal intelligentsia flock to, and eventually, and therefore Jews flock to. And then there's nowhere else to go after that. Right? The sanctuary cities. At one point it was Budapest. At one point it was Odessa. You know, we have these sort of cities throughout history where these are the cosmopolitan places. I mean, even you could even bring up Berlin. But I'm going to not. I'm going to try not to dive headfirst into, into the Germany thing, okay?
- [61:25]
Matthew Continetti
But.
- [61:25]
Seth Mandel
But we, but we sort of believe that these cities have a force field around them and Jews congregate them. And then eventually, you know, there was this moment where Zev Jabotinsky could refuse to believe that the pogroms that were happening over the border would come into Odessa, that it was like this sort of special place. And then they got a wake up call. So I think that that's historically, again, I'm not saying tomorrow, the streets beyond fire, but this is the trend that you look at it, the trend in American Jewish life is following the trend of thousands of years of history.
- [62:05]
John Podhoretz
I mean, it's just a matter of.
- [62:07]
Seth Mandel
The speed at which it follows that two things.
- [62:10]
John Podhoretz
So American Jews are protected the way all Americans are by our Constitution, by body of laws, by, you know, by, by, for example, the fighting back that the Trump administration is doing on anti Semitism, which is a response to the outbreak of anti Semitism. But, and Matt's right, this could be a 2028, could be a McGovern moment. What that means that people don't understand is that George McGovern, Richard Nixon won 43% of the vote in 1968 to become president. And in 1972, he won 62% of the vote. And George McGovern got 37 because he was an, he was a viewed as a crazy leftist who wanted America to.
- [62:54]
Matthew Continetti
Lose the war, acid amnesty and abortion.
- [62:58]
John Podhoretz
Right. Okay, so McGovern comes in and of course it is basically deep cut.
- [63:04]
Chris Stirewalt
I love you, man. I love you.
- [63:06]
John Podhoretz
With the exception, with the exception of the post Watergate election of 1976 when Jimmy Carter eked out, squeaked out a victory over Gerald Ford, Democrats were not elected to the presidency for 20 years. Was 1968 one election and then 1992, like that was the, you know, the Democratic, sorry, was they won in 64 and they didn't really win again until 92. So what does that tell you? It could be really bad. But if the Democratic Party goes full bore anti, at some point it's going to win the presidency. At some point it will have the House and the Senate again. And if this is a major issue for them, that is not safe for Jews. No matter how well the Republican Party solidifies itself as the pro Zionist, pro Jewish party. And Jews migrate over to the Republican Party, which I think, as I say, I think is now almost inevitable, though it could take another decade or at least the Jews who count as Jews and don't just say they're Jews when they're not really Jews. Okay, that's my.
- [64:11]
Chris Stirewalt
I do not wish to interfere with this singularity of crushing morosity. I feel privileged to even be present for the moment. But let me just say a couple things. Number one, again, I love New York. New York is great. New York does not look very much like the United States of America as a whole at all. And I have noticed some Jews in other places. I have noticed Jews in Florida on occasion. From time to time. I have noticed Jews in Chicago. I have noticed some Jews, I'm told by Kanye west, even in Hollywood. I. I believe that the United States remains a very welcoming place for its Jewish citizens. I think that. I think that is true. I would also say that I chose as my screen name John Peroi Mitchell.
- [65:14]
John Podhoretz
In our. In our zoom. Yes, is what John Pero Mitchell. You're not seeing it. Our viewers on YouTube are not seeing this, but you have put John Pero.
- [65:23]
Chris Stirewalt
Just picture me instead as a. As a young, handsome guy in a bowler hat. In 1913, John Perroy Mitchell beat Tammany Hall. In 1913, he ran as a Republican and won because the Tammany hall, the excesses of Tammany hall, which had controlled New York politics for two or three generations, were so great that people became willing to try something else. And they elected this reformer, this Teddy Rooseveltarian kind of crusading reformer in New York. He lost because he was way too into the First World War when he had war fever, bad. Lost a Republican primary, ran as an independent and lost. And Tammany hall was back. But whether it's him or Fiorello LaGuardia, the history is made, as the great George Will likes to say is, by determined minorities. Small groups make history, and they make history by pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. And then one day the door opens and I would just say, I am sure that there are many people who voted for Mamdani who are anti Semitic, who do. Or are anti Zionist. I would hazard that at least a plurality of them didn't think about it at all. What they thought about was, I want to do something different. I want to do something different. I increasingly believe that ideology is not the least important part of politics, but it sure as shooting is not the most important part of politics. I think people vote for people. I think people say, I like that person, or this is interesting. And I want to try that. When I watched Republicans try to stop Donald Trump by telling voters, this guy is not conservative. He is not conservative. He is not following the conservative rules. And they said, okay, that's fine. I like that he's gonna blow it up. I like that he's gonna change things. When you have.
- [67:46]
John Podhoretz
But by the way, yeah.
- [67:47]
Chris Stirewalt
When you have levels of dissatisfaction of this kind, these are the atmospheres in which radical, disruptive, transformative candidates succeed. And people in New York are very unhappy.
- [68:00]
John Podhoretz
This is why Matt's right in this sense, which is that the Democratic Party is Moving. And I think it is moving in this direction. Direction. And you know, who's responsible. Chris, you mentioned Jim Clyburn and others came into the 2020 race to make Joe Biden the nominee because Sanders looked like he was going to pull it off. And then they had on their hands a senile candidate that they had to hide for four years. Mamdani is a reformer. He is. This is our generation, their generation's version of a classic political reformer. He came in. He's not a machine candidate. He. He has got this establishment figure, corrupt establishment figure. That is his, you know, that is standing there in his way or is, you know, is. Is the colossus in the race that he can chip at. He wants to change economic policy whole bore in order to make this possible. It's a classic reformist story. The problem is that part of the reformist and that. And that is an assault on the Democratic party's behavior since 2016. That is how AOC beat Joe Crowley to be in. Representative Joe Crowley, who didn't even know he had to run a race in 2018, and she won in a primary with only 25,000 people, participated in 15,000 to 10,000 votes, and has now become, you know, the most famous Democrat in the House in a very short period of time because they weren't paying attention and they weren't looking and they didn't know that there was this dissatisfaction, and they thought that the solution to their problems was Joe Biden. And, you know, if Sanders had been the nominee in 20, which, of course, we were all terrified of, or I certainly was, but if he had been the nominee in 2020 and had been blown out and humiliated by Trump, that would have been a. Yeah, that would have been a referendum here. And maybe the referendum will take place in 2028, but that's eight years later after October 7th. And the fact that liberals on the left have gone more, not less, anti Zionist and anti Semitic since Israel was attacked. Yeah, I mean, that's. And no.
- [70:30]
Matthew Continetti
And anti Semitism has exploded. And all I'll say in response to Chris is ideology might not matter to voters, but it does matter to the people they elect.
- [70:41]
Chris Stirewalt
For sure.
- [70:41]
Abe Greenwald
Exactly.
- [70:42]
Matthew Continetti
And so the motivation doesn't matter as much as the policies that will be in place when Mamdani becomes married.
- [70:51]
Chris Stirewalt
I'm not. I'm not saying New York is going to be.
- [70:53]
Matthew Continetti
Well, those policies. Those policies.
- [70:55]
John Podhoretz
Right.
- [70:56]
Matthew Continetti
Well, not. And maybe, you know, maybe he'll, like many radicals, become more pragmatic in office. Maybe he won't push too much on the crime stuff because he wants to focus on economics. But I'll tell you the one thing he'll do, and that is he will be pro Palestinian and he will make the environment in New York City will be hostile to Israel and hostile to Jews by the very fact that he is in office and by what he says. And then, of course, there will be a huge fight between him and Trump where that issue, that binding issue on the Democratic far left is going to play a major role. So that's. That. That's all I'd say about that. And then finally, because we have to run, if you add up all of the two points that we made over the course of this hour and 10 minutes, I think it's like two to the 10th power. So really, we've made, you know, 200 points about Mahmoud Mamdani over. I'm sorry, not Mahmoud, his son. I know the dad. I know the dad.
- [72:00]
John Podhoretz
The dad. The dad.
- [72:02]
Matthew Continetti
Bucks dad gave me a tip.
- [72:05]
John Podhoretz
Really?
- [72:06]
Matthew Continetti
I think.
- [72:06]
Chris Stirewalt
Did he slide? You better helping.
- [72:09]
John Podhoretz
He better have. I think he might have.
- [72:11]
Matthew Continetti
He was, look, he was a nice guy. This is, this is why his son is now the.
- [72:16]
Seth Mandel
That's how they get you the presumptive mayor.
- [72:19]
Chris Stirewalt
Right.
- [72:20]
John Podhoretz
But I think, look, I think the central point is ideology. And Mamdani is not. Isn't. Is. Is ideological to his very core. But you are right that, that it's more a vibe for the people who vote for him than it is a considered view of his platform. I think the Democratic Party appears corrupted to its core. It's got this gerontocracy running it. You know, it doesn't so much as it used to. Right. Because Hakeem Jeffries is the, is the minority leader of the House and he's. I don't know what he is, 47 or something like that. So he's at least there. Schumer is still the leader in the Senate. You have all of these old guys, you have all of these veterans. The fact that you can't. Chris, we can't even summon the name of somebody who can represent this body of opinion that you say is the core of the Democratic Party. Whereas we could name three or four people who could run as a progressive in 2028 is very concerning because the Democratic Party has discredited itself in the eyes of its own voters. The way. So a Trump figure and aoc, even though she's an elected official, is kind of a Trump figure, is the perfect person in 2028 in that sense.
- [73:35]
Seth Mandel
And if you're dropping the answer is if everybody else drops out now and endorses Joe Biden, the party can still be a bulwark against its far left. But it's gotta be now.
- [73:49]
John Podhoretz
Gotta be now.
- [73:50]
Chris Stirewalt
But it worked.
- [73:50]
Seth Mandel
I mean, can I just say something on the ideology thing? And this is my pessimism on the ideology is this. What is the one thing that Mamdani would not backtrack on? Yeah, he backtracked on everything else. He, you know, he used to say that defunding the police is queer liberation. Does he say that now? No. Does he say I'm going to defund the police? No, he's backed off. Some of these crazy woke trendy things backed off.
- [74:16]
John Podhoretz
But he has not.
- [74:18]
Chris Stirewalt
He.
- [74:18]
Seth Mandel
Yeah, the one thing he won't, he won't moderate. His words on is globalize the intifada. And that's where I have a problem is because that became a big story and that became the one thing that was his hill to die on.
- [74:36]
John Podhoretz
It's bigger than that because he went on Stephen Colbert's show on Monday night and he said that he is in favor of the existence of Israel, by the way.
- [74:47]
Abe Greenwald
Because that's the way the question was asked. That was some sort of setup that.
- [74:53]
John Podhoretz
So he could say, I'm in favor of the existence of Israel, meaning that there is this country that is sitting there between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river. And so it, it will continue to exist. How it exists.
- [75:08]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, but not as a Jewish state.
- [75:09]
John Podhoretz
That's it.
- [75:10]
Chris Stirewalt
Right.
- [75:10]
Matthew Continetti
Against the Jewish. He's a binationalist.
- [75:12]
John Podhoretz
He had the first explicit anti Zionist candidate to win a major race in the, in the Democratic Party. I believe probably since the founding of the state. There were plenty of people in the Republican Party before the Reagan era that had this view or were like old line anti Semites, whatever. He is a, an explicit anti Zionist and he is making the ground, you know, he is making America safe or the American left and American Democrats safe for anti Zionism. Because he is showing that it is not a killer. It is not going to, it is not going to get you hope. We hoped in 2024, as you mentioned, Seth, that the Bowman and Bush losses would be a warning sign to Democrats not to go down this path. And this just blows that.
- [76:07]
Chris Stirewalt
I know that I'm not going to defeat the singularity of crushing morosity. I understand that it cannot. It is a force too great for me to defeat. But I will just remind you again.
- [76:17]
Matthew Continetti
Okay.
- [76:18]
John Podhoretz
Yes.
- [76:18]
Chris Stirewalt
New York is not very much like the rest of the country. The city of New York okay, let's take the Senate.
- [76:24]
John Podhoretz
So, Chris, let me ask you. Let's take the Senate. Democrats who stand up and voice support for Israel, for the strike on Iran. And one guy who had a stroke. One guy who had a stroke stands up for Israel. There are 46 more Democrats who does that. Well, by the way, in the Senate.
- [76:49]
Matthew Continetti
What'S to stop AOC from challenging Schumer now?
- [76:51]
Chris Stirewalt
Right.
- [76:52]
John Podhoretz
Really?
- [76:52]
Chris Stirewalt
That's, that's.
- [76:54]
Matthew Continetti
She could knock off the. What did the minority leader.
- [76:57]
Chris Stirewalt
The only thing at this point, what.
- [76:59]
Seth Mandel
Difference would it make?
- [76:59]
Chris Stirewalt
All the only, the only reason, the only reason for her not to do it is that she's going to run for president. Right.
- [77:07]
Matthew Continetti
Well, right.
- [77:08]
John Podhoretz
That's okay.
- [77:08]
Matthew Continetti
Obama, that's her choice right now. But yeah, yeah, well, it was four years for Obama, it would be two years. But her choice really is now. Those are her options right now. And like. And who else?
- [77:18]
John Podhoretz
Who.
- [77:19]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, we're talking about Gavin Newsom, but Newsom, no one gets.
- [77:22]
John Podhoretz
By the way, remember I mentioned the thing at the beginning of the podcast 25 hours ago about Joe Ciarelli, about Ciarelli in New Jersey being helped by Mamdani. One bright spot for Republicans is Donnie becomes mayor of New York. And these races in outside New York City, Governor's race. The four. Yeah, but the four or five races outside New York City that will have a huge effect on the control of the House of Representatives. They now have a suburban.
- [77:53]
Matthew Continetti
Mike Lawler. Right? Yeah.
- [77:55]
John Podhoretz
I mean, they have a villain. They're like, you want to, you want to elect. Yeah. It's a big deal. And Elise Stefanik or Mike Lawler run for governor. Elise Stefanik, last night she came out tweet that sounded like she was going at Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York. Where are you? Are you going to let this social. Are you going to open a mouth up about this socialist running New York City? You know, and that is a clear sign she is thinking seriously about this. And remember, she only lost to Lee Zeldin. She only beat Lee Zeldin by four and a half points. Just like so Koukl is not a strong.
- [78:32]
Seth Mandel
And Richie Torres may knock her out in a primary.
- [78:35]
Chris Stirewalt
How do you harness the energy of young insurgents without having the young insurgents take over your party? How do you do it? And that's the eternal question of politics. It's they want the voters, the Tea Party movement on the Republican side. We want your voters. We just don't want to vote the way that you want us to vote. But we don't want to denounce you. We don't want to fight you. We just want to suck your energy into the mass and then use that to go into the general election. It doesn't work because the party itself has changed along the way. So maybe you're making me part of the singularity of crushing morosity.
- [79:13]
John Podhoretz
I we need. Listen, if I resistance is futile. If I can make you depressed, Chris, you one of the most cheerful people I've ever met. If I can achieve that, I feel that my job is done here.
- [79:26]
Chris Stirewalt
Mazel tov.
- [79:27]
John Podhoretz
The commentary has served its served its purpose in conveying the desperation and the horror of the present moment. Anyway, Chris Star Walt host of the Hill Sunday Everybody watch Sunday mornings. The only the only Sunday new show you should watch.
- [79:47]
Chris Stirewalt
I like that.
- [79:48]
John Podhoretz
Thank you so much for being with us. And for Abe, Matt and Seth, I'm John Podworth. Keep the camel bur.