The Commentary Magazine Podcast

Episode: "The Saudis Come Calling"

Date: November 19, 2025
Panelists: Jon Podhoretz (Host/Editor), Abe Greenwald (Executive Editor), Seth Mandel (Senior Editor), Eliana Johnson (Washington Free Beacon Editor)

Overview of the Episode

This episode provides an incisive look at shifting U.S. foreign policy concerning Saudi Arabia—particularly in light of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's (MBS) recent White House visit—the evolution of Saudi priorities, and related developments in Venezuela. In the latter part, the panel devotes significant attention (with wit and an acerbic tone) to a salacious media scandal involving political reporters Olivia Nuzzi and Ryan Lizza, drawing broader lessons about elite culture, shame, and the current state of American journalism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Transformation of U.S.–Saudi Relations

(00:41–15:50)

The 1980s vs. 2025:

• Jon Podhoretz recounts his thesis work on U.S.–Saudi ties, recalling a Saudi Arabia once defined by harsh religious orthodoxy and deep-seated anti-Western sentiment:

  "The United States was thumpering around trying to figure out how to handle the fact that this implacably anti-western and hostile country...was the key to the lifeline of the world's industrial production." (01:41)

• Forty years later, Saudi power is consolidated under MBS, with shifting priorities:

  "Times have changed. Saudi Arabia oil is no longer providing Saudi Arabia with the kind of resources...He is pretty much like the absolute monarch of the country." (03:24–03:52)

Policy Realism and Khashoggi's Legacy:

• The panel discusses U.S. willingness to work with MBS—even after the Khashoggi murder—highlighting the contrast between moralism (Biden’s early "pariah state" rhetoric) and realpolitik:

  "We have deals and relationships with regimes that do way worse every single day. We always have. We always will." (04:58)

• Seth Mandel underscores Trump's strength as recognizing "the reality of world politics." (13:33)

The "Pariah State" Policy’s Real-World Reversal:

• The Biden Administration, after concessions to progressives, reversed course and re-engaged with Saudi Arabia due to pragmatic resource and security needs:

  "It was 'turn them into a pariah state,'...And then a year and a half later, they're like, 'Oh, what did we do here?'" (05:37)

2. MBS, Normalization, and the Palestinian Issue

(05:50–15:50)

The “Pathway” to a Palestinian State:

• MBS signaled willingness to normalize relations with Israel if there is a "pathway to a Palestinian state," not demanding an immediate formation:
  • Eliana Johnson:

    "He will accept a, you know, roadmap style euphemism rather than a, you know, a physical map that says, here's the borders of a Palestinian state..." (07:17)

  • The panel agrees the focus is weapons (notably F-35s), not Palestinian sovereignty.

Saudi Priorities: Vision 2030 and Neom:

• Jon Pothorst shares that MBS’s futuristic ambitions reflect a generational shift, prioritizing megaprojects over ideological battles:

  "...50 years ago this was the primary obsession...And 50 years later he wants to build 110-mile-long city called Neom and create kind of a Disney World of a new metropolis." (08:18)

Security Concerns and the Nixon Doctrine:

• Debate over whether providing F-35s will reduce Saudi incentive to normalize with Israel:
  • Jon Pothorst: "He wants the F35s to destroy the Houthis first and foremost ... this is a perfect example of the Nixon doctrine in play..." (12:18)

3. A Realpolitik Assessment: Biden, Trump, and the Optics

(13:25–15:50)

• The group highlights Biden’s shifting stances and the contrast with Trump’s approach:
  • John Podhoretz: "All of [Biden’s] moralizing just crumbled...That is Trump’s strength."
  • Seth Mandel (14:51): "Trump said yesterday: I had no fist bump here. I grabbed that hand. I don’t care where that hand has been..."

4. 9/11, Khashoggi, and ‘Clearing the Decks’

(15:50–18:47)

• MBS publicly acknowledged Saudi responsibility in 9/11 for the first time, a move seen as clearing obstacles for normalization:

  "That is part of clearing the decks...He is trying to deal with the two major problems with a close American...relationship...what’s the deal with 911 and...Khashoggi..." (15:50)

• Discussion of Khashoggi’s true affiliations and the West’s disproportionate focus on his case due to media narratives.

5. Venezuela, Geopolitics, and Oil

(18:47–29:17)

• U.S. administration’s dual-track policy: covert action against the Maduro regime in Venezuela and the potential negotiation for an exit.
  • Jon Pothorst: "Very aggressive, like extraordinarily aggressive measures being taken short of actual war with Venezuela."
• Motivation: maintaining stable oil flows and countering malign Iranian and Russian regional influence.
  • Seth Mandel: "Venezuela plays a small role in this axis...a genuine bad actor against the kinds of things that the Trump administration is trying to do." (21:57)
• Venezuela tied into broader U.S. postures: linking policy in Latin America and the Middle East to “Monroe Doctrine” principles.

6. Trump’s ‘America First’ Unilateralism vs. Isolationism

(29:17–33:39)

• The panel eviscerates the idea that Trump is an isolationist; instead, he is an aggressive, unilateral actor unconstrained by ideology or alliances:

  "Trump is somebody who wants all options available...He is never going to say, I subscribe to an ideology that's going to limit my optionality..." (29:17)

• Venezuela action consistent with Trump’s first term, with increasing willingness to escalate now.
• Notable swipe at MAGA “neo-isolationists” (e.g., Tucker Carlson) for excusing Venezuela’s regime on unrelated social issues.

7. Media Scandal: Olivia Nuzzi, Ryan Lizza, and Journalistic Rot

(36:32–76:46)

The Scandal(s) & Fallout:

• The podcast shifts gears to dissect with relish the unfolding scandal involving political reporters Olivia Nuzzi and Ryan Lizza, her affairs (with politicians Mark Sanford and RFK Jr.), and their dueling expository memoirs/Substacks.
  • Jon Pothorst: "So Olivia Nuzzi came on to the public scene...as an intern for Anthony Weiner’s campaign...and then stabbing the campaign in the back." (44:50)

Larger Cultural Critique:

• Nuzzi and Lizza’s conduct is lampooned as symptomatic of an elite class “rotted to the core”—exemplifying shamelessness and narcissism rampant among today’s tastemakers.
  • Seth Mandel:

    "...there was a time when if you were publicly humiliated, ... you would slink away and never want to be recognized...That’s all changed...The only way out is through. Give them everything now." (68:30)

• Discussion pivots to general decay of shame in elite culture, connecting Clinton-era mores to today’s exhibitionism.

Notable Quips:

• John Podhoretz:

  "Trump made her sleep with Mark Sanford...is some interesting analog to the Twinkie defense." (55:09)

• Jon Pothorst:

  "...she is like a character out of a Balzac novel. And so is he, by the way." (58:09)

• Eliana Johnson:

  "The irony...is that Mark Sanford was running as the non gross alternative to Trump..." (71:54)

8. The Decline of Journalism and Its Elitist Roots

(73:41–76:46)

• Reflection on how journalism’s professionalization and elite socialization has led to a loss of critical detachment:

  "There became a confusion between what it meant to cover things and what it meant to be part of things..." (73:41)

• The historic distinction between working-class, skeptical reporters and today’s Ivy-educated newsmakers is bemoaned.

9. Concluding Thoughts: Disillusion and the ‘Rotten Elite’

• Final remarks stress that the relentless, personal self-exposure of journalists is a reflection of a society in which shame has lost its power, with elite corruption now an expectation, not an aberration:

  • Seth Mandel:

    "Success in America requires a kind of shamelessness that most societies have succeeded in imposing by shame..." (69:49)

  • Jon Pothorst:

    "...the more successful they are, the more likely it is that they are of somewhat low character." (79:57)

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "We have deals and relationships with regimes that do way worse every single day. We always have. We always will."
  – Jon Podhoretz (04:58)

• "He will accept a...roadmap style euphemism rather than...a physical map that says, here’s the borders of a Palestinian state..."
  – Eliana Johnson (07:17)

• "Trump said yesterday: I had no fist bump here. I grabbed that hand. I don’t care where that hand has been..."
  – Seth Mandel (14:51)

• "Trump is somebody who wants all options available to him. He is never going to say, I subscribe to an ideology that's going to limit my optionality..."
  – John Podhoretz (29:17)

• "Success in America requires a kind of shamelessness. ... Shamelessness that most societies have always succeeded in imposing a kind of external control over people's behavior through the weapon of shame."
  – Seth Mandel (69:49)

• "The more successful they are, the more likely it is that they are of somewhat low character."
  – Jon Pothorst (79:57)

Section Timestamps for Reference

• Intro/Foreign Policy on Saudis: 00:41–05:50
• MBS, Israel, and the Palestinian Issue: 05:50–15:50
• Biden vs Trump on Saudi Policy: 13:25–15:50
• 9/11, Khashoggi, Saudi Image Management: 15:50–18:47
• Venezuela and U.S. Oil Policy: 18:47–29:17
• Trump’s “Unilateralism” vs. Isolationism: 29:17–33:39
• Media Scandal (Nuzzi/Lizza) & Journalism Critique: 36:32–76:46
• Reflections on Shame, Elites, and Journalism: 68:30–76:46
• Conclusion: 76:46–end

Tone and Style

Throughout, the panel’s tone is urbane, irreverent, and caustic, especially regarding the media scandal, but deeply analytical and historically informed on foreign policy. References abound to classic literature, recent history, and the foibles of contemporary elites, delivered in the magazine’s characteristic blend of informed opinion and sharp wit.

For anyone who has not listened:
This episode uses the news of the Saudi state visit and a beltway media scandal as springboards for deeper commentary on American realpolitik, shifting Middle Eastern alliances, the decline of journalistic standards, and the unique shamelessness of today’s ruling class. The podcast is dense with both geopolitical insight and biting cultural critique.