The Terrorists Are Here

Summary

The Terrorists Are Here

The Commentary Magazine Podcast
Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host/Author: Commentary Magazine

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Terrorists Are Here," hosted by John Podhoretz, the panelists explore the recent surge in antisemitic violence and its broader implications for American society. Joining Podhoretz are Executive Editor Abe Greenwald, Washington columnist Matthew Kahn, and former National Review editor Noah Rothman. The discussion delves into the tragic murder of Sarah Milgram, the motivations behind such acts, and the systemic issues fueling this rise in domestic terrorism.

Incident Overview

[00:48 - 05:24]
John Podhoretz opens the discussion by recounting the harrowing story of Sarah Milgram, a 17-year-old Jewish student from Prairie Village, Kansas. In 2017, Sarah discovered Nazi graffiti at her high school, an experience that profoundly affected her trajectory. She pursued higher education at American University, earning dual master’s degrees in International Studies and Natural Resources and Sustainable Development from the United Nations University of Peace. Sarah's dedication to peace-building between Israelis and Palestinians was tragically cut short when she was murdered outside the Capital Jewish Museum by Elias Rodriguez, a member of the Party of Socialism and Liberation.

Podhoretz highlights Sarah's idealism, quoting her commitment to fostering understanding:
"My passion lies at the intersection of peace building, religious engagement and environmental work." [00:48]

He draws parallels between Sarah's murder and the October 7 attacks on kibbutzim, emphasizing that terrorists often emerge from within communities they once sought to aid.

Antisemitism and Rising Domestic Terrorism

[05:24 - 18:54]
Abe Greenwald underscores the significance of the attack in Washington, D.C., noting it occurred near the FBI field office and the new Capital Jewish Museum. He critiques the museum's progressive agenda, suggesting it exemplifies a broader trend of American Jews aligning with leftist, liberal ideologies that may inadvertently fuel anti-Jewish sentiments.

Matthew Kahn and Noah Rothman contribute by discussing the normalization of violent rhetoric within progressive circles. Rothman points out that events emphasizing humanitarian aid to Gaza might inadvertently signal the wrong "guys" to extremists:
"It was for humanitarian aid to Gaza... the implication there is that you got the wrong guys." [06:03]

Greenwald adds that antisemitism is not confined to external threats but is increasingly present within American institutions and campuses, exacerbated by the aftermath of Hamas attacks and the subsequent rise in anti-Jewish campaigns.

Political Responses and Commentary

[18:54 - 41:46]
The panelists critique the current political landscape, particularly the responses from Democratic lawmakers and the broader left. John Podhoretz discusses the insufficient condemnation and inadequate policy responses to antisemitic violence, contrasting it with stronger stances he attributes to the Trump administration. Greenwald references a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Professor Juka Savolanen, which draws parallels between contemporary leftist radicalism and historical terrorist movements like the Weather Underground and Bader-Meinhof.

Noah Rothman emphasizes the link between liberal ideologies and the propensity for violent extremism:
"They are consumed by what I've called the Omni cause... increasing tendency to turn to violence." [29:15]

The discussion highlights instances of anti-Jewish violence, including the assassination attempts on political figures and the systemic failure to address hate crimes adequately. Greenwald points out the legislative and societal shortcomings in combating antisemitism, advocating for more robust enforcement of hate crime statutes and institutional reforms.

Systemic Issues and Future Implications

[41:46 - 73:57]
Abe Greenwald and Noah Rothman delve into the systemic crises that enable antisemitism and domestic terrorism. Greenwald cites the Supreme Court's decision on the Maine state legislator's free speech rights as indicative of broader societal failures to protect minority voices effectively. The panel criticizes the normalization of extremist symbols and rhetoric, emphasizing the need for proactive measures to dismantle antisemitic networks.

Podhoretz reflects on the personal impact of these events, expressing concern for the safety of Jewish communities and institutions. He shares his apprehensions about potential future attacks on synagogues and Jewish educational centers, stressing the necessity for increased security and community resilience.

Rothman discusses the psychological underpinnings of radicalization, particularly among educated individuals who may feel disenfranchised within the current political system. He argues for addressing the root causes of extremist ideologies to prevent further violence.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a somber reflection on the current state of American society, highlighting the urgent need to address rising antisemitism and domestic terrorism. The panelists call for unified efforts to combat hate, enforce stricter hate crime laws, and foster a cultural shift towards intolerance of extremist ideologies. They emphasize that without decisive action, the trend of violent extremism, particularly targeting Jewish communities, is likely to continue escalating.

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Notable Quotes:

• John Podhoretz [00:48]:
  "My passion lies at the intersection of peace building, religious engagement and environmental work."

• Noah Rothman [29:15]:
  "They are consumed by what I've called the Omni cause... increasing tendency to turn to violence."

• Abe Greenwald [29:15]:
  "This has to be of extremely pressing concern, and not just for Jews, but for anyone who understands that it never ends with Jews and that the larger goal is simply anti-civilizational and it has to be combated."

• Abe Greenwald [41:46]:
  "You have to combat it because it never ends with Jews and the larger goal is simply anti-civilizational."

Final Thoughts

"The Terrorists Are Here" serves as a critical examination of the intersections between antisemitism, domestic terrorism, and the current political climate in the United States. Through in-depth analysis and personal narratives, the episode underscores the pressing need for societal and institutional reforms to safeguard vulnerable communities and uphold democratic values.

Transcript

[Abe Greenwald]

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[Matthew Kahn]

Some preach and pain Some die of.

[Abe Greenwald]

Thirst the way of knowing which way.

[Noah Rothman]

It'S going Hope for the best Expect.

[John Podhoretz]

The worst, hope for the best welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily Podcast. Today is Thursday, May 22, 2025. I'm John Pothoris, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, Executive Editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

Washington, Commentary columnist Matthew Kahn. Nettie hi Matt.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

And joining us this morning, our old colleague, National Reviews, Noah Rothman. Welcome back, Noah.

[Noah Rothman]

Hi John.

[John Podhoretz]

Let me tell you a story about a 17 year old girl in Prairie Village, Kansas, attending the Shawnee Mission East High School, coming to school one day in 2017 to find Nazi graffiti sprayed all over the campus. And according to a local news channel I dug up last night, she saw the graffiti of swastikas and vulgar words and she said to the reporter, it's so ignorant that you would bring up a symbol like that that would bring so much pain to people. It's not okay. You know, I worry about going to my synagogue and now I have to worry about safety at my school and that shouldn't be a thing. Move forward a few years in her timeline of her life and the same 17 year old ends up going to American University to get a Master's degree in International Studies and gets an additional master's degree in Natural Resources and Sustainable Development from the United Nations University of Peace. Didn't know that such a thing existed. On her LinkedIn page after her MAS, she wrote, My passion lies at the intersection of peace building, religious engagement and environmental work. While working with Tech to Peace in Tel Aviv, Israel, I conducted comprehensive research on peacebuilding theory emphasizing grassroots initiatives in the Israeli Palestinian region. My my diverse experiences, including facilitating insightful discussions on geopolitics in Israel and Palestine as a Jewish educator, and researching an array of environmental topics in India and Central America, reflect my commitment to fostering understanding between different peoples. This was Sarah Milgram, and last night she was shot to death outside the Capital Jewish Museum. She was working at the Israeli Embassy with her boyfriend and apparently soon to be fiance, Jerome Liszitski, and they were both shot multiple times by one Elias Gonzalez, himself a Midwesterner from Chicago who apparently was a figure in what is called the Party of Socialism and Liberation. I bring this up only to say that Sarah Milgram was a deeply idealistic person who believed that peace was possible between Israel and Palestine and the Palestinians and wished to facilitate this in some manner. And this is how she conducted her life. She felt she felt this way probably in part because of the swastikas being painted at her high school, and that this was something that, you know, there needed to be an answer to make sure that such horrors did not happen again. She dedicated her life to it. She went to work at the Israeli Embassy to do work that she could help with, fell in love with Yaron Lifcitzki, who is himself an interesting story, and was murdered nonetheless, despite her deep commitment to peace. What does this remind us of? Or what does it remind me of? It reminds me of so many of the people in the three kibbutzim that were hit on October 7, peace activists, leftists, seeking so much, seeking reconciliation and common understanding with the Palestinians in Gaza, that they employed them. And that in the case of at least one of those who was employed at. At Kvaraza, I believe, or Bari, one of the two drew plans, was there, worked with them, was a friend to them, and then he drew plans to provide a map for Hamas to know how to get in and what to do and where the safety points were and how to get the storehouse of guns and seize it so that they could go through and kill as many people as possible. So this is where we are with a terrorist attack on American soil last night at 10:45, about half a mile from the nation's capital and across the street from the FBI field office in Washington, D.C. this is where we are now.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, I mean, in the nation's capital in a Jewish site, cultural site, the Jewish Museum of Washington, an event, a diplomatic night, sponsored by the American Jewish Committee. It's not at the embassy. This is not a Jews.

[Matthew Kahn]

Not in a synagogue.

[Abe Greenwald]

Right, but it's Jews. It's not. It's. It's. It's not just Israel. It's not Israeli policy. It's Jews targeting Jews.

[Noah Rothman]

I'm just comforted a little bit by the degree to which participants in this event are emphasizing what it was for.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Noah Rothman]

It was for humanitarian aid to Gaza. There's a statement that was produced by ISRA Aid where they say, now we and all the attendees gathered in the interest of finding practical solutions to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and showing that working together is the only way forward for all the people in the region. I understand why they're doing it, but the implication there is that you got the wrong guys.

[John Podhoretz]

Right?

[Noah Rothman]

They did.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. Well, the capital, Jewish. Another point I wanted to add, which I forgot, and thank you, Noah, for that, is I did not know, oddly enough, about the existence of the Capitol Jewish Museum, which is new which was I think opened two years ago and brought the oldest the building of the oldest synagogue in Washington, Addis Israel, the original building, and moved it on wheels on a truck from 6th street to 3rd street and then built this modern pavilion around it. So it's a very elaborate, very expensive facility. And what does the website push? What does the website of the Capitol Jewish Museum push? Upcoming Exhibition LGBT Jews in the Federal City Educator Resources Jewish American Heritage Month featuring a picture on the website of the Freedom Seder, which was published in the 1960s, a sort of far left Haggadah guide to the Seder and Passover written by one Arthur Waskow, one of the most prominent far left figures in Washington over the last 50 years. And the Freedom center ends not with Jews saying next year in Jerusalem, but next year in the free world. Doing the work of the nation is Features, which is a blog post features a photograph of a black woman and a Jewish woman communing happily together. And so what does this tell us? This tells us that this is yet another example of the idea among many American Jews that to be Jewish in America is to be a member not only of the not only to be liberal but also to be kind of left. And that seems to be sort of Sarah Milgram's story, though of course obviously openly Zionist, working at the Israeli embassy with an Israeli boyfriend that she was he, the ambassador Yechiel Leiter, said last night had a ring in his pocket and was getting ready to propose to her in Jerusalem next week. One of the reasons that he would not propose to her this week is that it is the counting of the Omer that is the period between Passover and Shavuot, which the holiday that comes and is celebrated as the time that Moses gives the Torah to the people Israel. And this is considered a sort of a period of mourning. And you're not supposed to have happy occasions through the counting of the Omer or there are certain types of things you're not supposed to do if you are very religious, which apparently he was not. That's what I also something else to get to. But my point is that as Noah would say, it doesn't matter what a Jew is. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if a Jew is left wing or right wing. It doesn't matter if a Jew is trying to get food into Gaza or you know, or wants to kill every last Palestinian. The people who target who are who are engaged in acts of violent resistance against the existence of Jewry and Israel will shoot you no matter who you are shoot you in the back of the head. Come from Chicago to shoot you in the back, the head. And Jews in America better get, you know, better get right with this fact, because every now and then you hear people saying things like, well, you know, that it's white supremacists in America that are a threat. And indeed, it's true that the two synagogue attacks in Poway, California and in Pittsburgh in 2018, 2019 were conducted by white supremacists. But there was also an attack on a synagogue in Texas in 2022 by an Islamic extremist.

[Noah Rothman]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

And there's been an ongoing anti Jewish campaign in America's universities and cities since October 8, 2023, within 24 hours of the Hamas pogrom in Israel on October 7. I think one point I'd like to make is I was reminded as you and Noah were talking about Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu's statement on the death of the scholar Michael, the dean and I had just read the statement, and Netanyahu was close with Michael and he. In his comment memorial that he posted on X, Netanyahu wrote this about Ludin, quote, he understood a basic truth that many seek to ignore. You must understand the cultures and values of the people driving current affairs to correctly assess the threats and opportunities they present. Close quote. And I think it's. That quote is relevant to what we're discussing because to this moment, even in the aftermath of this heinous act, too few people actually understand the cultures and values of the Palestinian movement, the Hamas movement, what Hamas wants, what it means to accuse Israel of these crimes against humanity. It's not a state, it's the extinction of Israel. It's the death of Jews. That's what Hamas and its supporters want. Until you recognize that, you're going to be morally and intellectually disarmed and shocked and paralyzed by what happened last night in Washington. And the second point I'd like to make is more general, which is this is now within the year, we have two of these instances of what was known in the 19th century as propaganda of the deed we had last year. The Luigi Mangione killing of the United Healthcare worker shot again in the back while the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, excuse me, was leaving to attend a convention. And what we saw there was in fact the lionization of Manjoni from, from the far left and even a more mainstream apologetics about his murderous deed. And now we have this, and this is an extremely troubling trend, as if the trends weren't already troubling but the fact is that the radical left, the portions of this pro Palestinian movement in the United States are adopting murder and terror as tactics and that has to be stopped.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, I would just add one thing, just one, just detail the story that connects this idea that of course this wasn't some random schizophrenic who thought, you know, Jews were, you know, listening to him through the radio or something. He pulled out a keffiyeh and yelled, free, Free Palestine. So I just want to make it, you know, emphasize that the line between the anti Israel animus that we've been seeing since October 7th, the line between that and the killing is direct and straight.

[Noah Rothman]

Yeah. And to that point, just how clear and plain that these killers make their associations. I would add the firebombing of Governor Josh Shapiro's home, which establishes a direct connection between the extent to which the Democratic establishment attempted to placate this violent movement in search of a, of a justification for the violence that they're already inclined toward and the extent to which that they feel motivated to lash out at figures like Josh Shapiro. There was a whisper campaign against him and his vice presidential ambitions. We all were privy to it. We all know, you know, the dark elements of it. And if that just kind of barely registers with us, it absolutely, it's a, you know, a really impossible to ignore signal to people who are inclined to this kind of anti Semitic violence. You had me, John, you had me write a piece in the December 2023 issue. The violence, the anti Jewish violence is happening. Which, you know, it seems quaint now to look back on it because a lot of it was limited to campuses, but there were plenty of leading indicators. A knife wielding assailant who ran into a Studio City, California home because he saw mezuzah on the door. A Minneapolis man who was assaulted with caustic substances because he accidentally drove into a demonstration, an anti Israel demonstration. And on and on and on. You know, the record is, is there for people who want to see it, but so many didn't.

[John Podhoretz]

Let's talk about the mood out of which of the last week from which Elias Gonzales emerged from the sewer of his.

[Abe Greenwald]

John, I know you're naming him and often we don't name terrorists, but you're naming him incorrectly. His last name is Rodriguez.

[John Podhoretz]

Rodriguez. I'm so sorry, I keep.

[Abe Greenwald]

I don't even like correcting you on this matter.

[John Podhoretz]

No, no, I'm having a bad week on naming.

[Abe Greenwald]

I don't want us to get into any trouble.

[John Podhoretz]

Elias Rodriguez emerges at a point in time and what is this point in time? It comes at a point when Israel has decided that it must move militarily to end the war in Gaza. There's a great deal of controversy in Israel about prioritizing that over the return of the hostages. Bibi Netanyahu made a speech in which he said, this is the only way that we can get the hostages to return to pummel Hamas so severely that they finally say, we're giving up and we're going to give you back the hostages in exchange for our lives if we can go into exile. That is the strategy that is happening. And what is the world's response to this? After 18 months? The world's response is Britain, France and Canada announced they are going to do take concrete measures against their deeply beloved ally, Israel. We have the secretary of State who made a very strong and forthright statement as everyone in the Trump administration was fantastic last night. But it remains the fact that Marco Rubio went to Capitol Hill and said the Israelis went too far, are going too far. I haven't let enough aid in. And, and things were bad and it wasn't good. And campus commencements over the last week, I was told yesterday, totally, you know, unrelated, somebody who went to both the Barnard and Columbia commencements, Barnard was Tuesday and Columbia was yesterday. Right. They're across the street from each other. They're sister schools, Barnard and Columbia. So the president of Barnard, 99% or something like that of the students graduating, refused to shake the hand of the president of the, of, of Barnard as they were getting their diplomas as a matter of deliberate choice because she had suppressed this demonstration on the campus three, four weeks ago and had a couple of people arrested, had brought in the cops and had a couple people arrested because they were starting to reoccupied a building. And at the Columbia demonstration, you had people hissing, yelling, booing. The interim president, Claire Shipman, is not somebody I think particularly highly of people burning Columbia graduates coming back to campus to burn their diplomas and to generally make this event, which is supposed to be a commemorative event for four years of getting through college and graduating into a nightmarish puddle of chaos. And what happens the night after the scene at Columbia in Morningside Heights, a mile and a half from where I'm sitting, you know, he Elias goes and shoots two people in the head.

[Abe Greenwald]

And the thing about the Columbia commencement is Shipman, true to form, in her incompetence and lack of depth, defended Mahmoud Khalil in her speech.

[John Podhoretz]

She was sorry that fellow graduate Mahmoud Khalil was not with could it be.

[Abe Greenwald]

There because of his free speech? Yeah, denouncing is real.

[Matthew Kahn]

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[John Podhoretz]

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[John Podhoretz]

I want to remind people that Mahmoud Khalil, who is still in jail in Louisville, Kentucky, I believe he is in jail in Louisville, Kentucky by choice because he is refusing. He could be out of jail or he's in. He's in Georgia somewhere, I'm sorry. To be out of jail and on a plane out of the United States any second. He wishes, but is choosing to remain in jail as a martyr to the cause of his what will be his eventual deportation, as he has no grounds to contest his deportation because the law gives the power to the Secretary of State, the aforementioned Marco Rubio, to deport anyone whom he believes is inimical to the interests of the United States. And as Rubio told the Senate this week and the House both that power is not anything that a judge can Interfere with. There's no exceptions in the law. It's pretty absolute. You do not have a right to be in the United States on a student visa. It is a privilege, and the privilege can be withdrawn from you if it is determined that your behavior is bad. Our friend Annie McCarthy, by the way, sent me this just before we got to air 18 US code 2331. And he says, basically, this event can be characterized as an act of international terrorism and can pull off and can therefore trigger very significant penalties to anybody related to this event. The term international terrorism, it says, means activities that involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state. Appear to be intended 1. To intimidate or coerce a civilian population, 2, to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or three, to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, kidnapping, and c occur primarily outside the jurisdiction of the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accompanied, accomplish the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum. The term person means any individual or entity capable of holding a legal or beneficial interest in property. The term act of war means any act occurring in the course of a declared war, an armed conflict, or an armed conflict between military forces. The term domestic terrorism means acts that are dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws in this state. In other words, this is a terrorist act. The law says it's a terrorist act. And anybody with whom Elias was, or Elias, or however we pronounce his name was associated. If we discover associations and anyone who is deemed to have encouraged his actions, the statute is triggered. So it's not just that you have to be materially involved. If from this moment forward you say, hey, that was a cool thing that he did at that museum, you should be in the crosshairs of Pam Bondi's Department of Justice and an interim prosecutor, Jeanine Pirro, both of whom were on that stage last night with Muriel Bowser, the mayor of D.C. and Yechiel Leiter, the Israeli ambassador to the Deputy director FBI.

[Abe Greenwald]

Dan Bongino is on the case, giving very strong posts on Twitter as well. You know, I'm going to continue returning to this theme, but it just so happened that today's Wall Street Journal has an op ed by a professor of sociology named Juka or Juka Savolanen entitled the Alienated Knowledge Class could turn violent. And what the professor in the op ed is saying is going back to the emergence of the Weather Underground and the Bader Meinhof gang and all of the terrorist groups of the 1970s and drawing a parallel with what is happening on the left today. You have this large number of people, sometimes referred to as midwits, people who think they're educated, but they're really not. Instead, they're just steeped in this anti American, anti Semitic, anti Western civilizational ideology. They're consumed by what I've called the, the Omni cause. Right. Whether it is radical environmentalism, radical race theory, radical anti Zionism and anti Semitism, and they are increasingly turning to violence. And so I mentioned Mangione, but let's not forget the attacks on Tesla dealerships, the firebombing of everything associated with Elon.

[John Podhoretz]

Musk and individual Tesla cars.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah. Vandalism, vandalizing individual Tesla electric vehicles.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

The trans violence we're seeing with the radical trans activists going after institutions and individuals they believe to be, you know, hostile to Tesla, to them. We, we had a moment and, you know, I was hoping that the 2024 election would be this kind of re. Hyphen norming of America, but it's the radicalism, the revolutionism that Abe has written about, it is still there. And the other parallel, not just the 1960s and 70s, is also the late 19th century Russia where the intelligence, as Gary Morse, Saul Morrison has written so eloquently, turned into nihilist terrorists. And we're beginning the groundwork for, for the Russian Revolution, the Bolshevik, eventually the Bolshevik Revolution. So this has to be of extremely pressing concern, and not just for Jews, who as always, are the first targets, but for anyone who understands that it never ends with Jews and that the larger goal is simply is anti civilizational and it has to be, it has to be combated.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, Dostoevsky's point, right, the great portrayer of this trend in 19th century terrorism, right, is that it is nihilists. It is, it is anti life. It is about the destruction of life. And there's this other event, right, this bombing in Palm Springs.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, the fertility clinic just last weekend.

[John Podhoretz]

By the antinatalist who wants human, wants humanity to end because humans are destructive. So you start with the Jews, you get to the general population, and then you just get to the world.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, and what was one of what, what was God's commandment? Choose life. Choose life.

[John Podhoretz]

That's right. So I do think that Noah and Abe were both extraordinarily prescient Noah started writing about the leftist taste for blood in 2016, both on the website and in the pages of the magazine. Right. Sort of a kind of rumble in San Jose, California, as I remember in my first book.

[Noah Rothman]

My first book, which was published in 2017. No, I started writing in 2017, published in early 2019. On social justice.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. So that. Yes, that social justice warriors are in fact warriors. It's not necessarily a term of art or that kind of thing like, let's fight. We're going to fight, meaning, you know, we're going to yell and write op eds and then go home and have pasta like it is. For. For a. Not. For a small but not tiny percentage of people who define themselves in this way. October 7th represented the moment in which the switch was turned on and in which if they were in a paddock or in a barn, the barn door was open and they could flood out, you know. And where did that come from? Yeah, it comes from the over. The over creation or, you know, that. That this brilliant op ed that you mentioned talks about essentially kind of overproduction of elites who find it very difficult to work and get fulfilled employment in the world after graduation because there are too many of them chasing too few jobs. And that then only adds to the notion that the country is evil.

[Noah Rothman]

And radicalization is a temptation for among those who live the life of the mind, Right. That is just ever present. And if you take their own raison d' etre and their rationale to its logical conclusion, the trap is one of two things happen to you because you've resolved that the fundaments of this system are immoral and unjust and in dire need of radical reform. Right. And just the instruments of politics will not facilitate that objective. So one of two things happens to you, right? You get really depressed and you drop out of the system. You say, you know, wash my hands of it because it's just not responsive to your, you know, moral imperatives. The other is to radicalize and to resolve to attack the foundations of this wholly unjust and immoral system that is unresponsive to what you regard to be, you know, the most important things that you can imagine that to which you have to work your. For your entire life or you're an immoral person. That's the sort of temptation that most people can avoid, but not everybody can, particularly those who are. Who have this kind of social circles where you, you know, you're cloistered in them and you work yourself up into a froth over these. Over these things. And are constantly encountering the incentives to engage in rhetorical one upmanship. Everybody has to be a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more energized, a little bit more enthusiastic, a little bit less compromising. And it's self reinforcing cycle that produces this. These kind of violent elements with so much frequency that it's impossible to ignore. Should be impossible to ignore unless you yourself are resolved to ignore it.

[Matthew Kahn]

Right, Abe?

[John Podhoretz]

I think.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can you say. I think also it can't be overstated how much 2020 and the events of that year sort of trained a generation for this. That's when mass violence in the name of a cause became not only permitted, but celebrated. And that's when you saw officials responding to this violence, bending to it, coming around to the side of the revolutionaries. That's when everyone masked up to go out and do their worst in public. That's never gone away. That's remained an element in all this. And that is also when the atmosphere in America became strange enough to begin to break every norm. And that is still. We are still not. We haven't sort of snapped back into shape since.

[Abe Greenwald]

I mean we're trying and I think that was what 2024 was about. But you're absolutely right. We haven't snapped back into shape. And there is another anecdote on a separate issue that I heard the other day that is illustrates this, which is the new director of the National Institutes of Health, J. Bhattacharya was holding a town hall meeting with his employees. And in the course of this town hall meeting he was talking about how NIH should not fund any gain of function research. And he said that there is the potential that NIH funding through Peter Draczak.

[John Podhoretz]

And Dazak right now I get to correct.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, I know. That's good. I knew I was on a ledge there. I was hoping you close.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

The Eco Health EcoHealth alliance that Jim Miggs has written about so brilliantly for us may have actually contributed to the research at the Wuhan lab from which Covid originated at that point, according to reports, and you can hear it on the audio, many NIH staffers walked out, stood up, turned their backs to Bhattacharya and left. And the reporters, the radio reporter telling the story noted they were all wearing masks. Masks, yeah. So that syndrome, the masks are actually a good sign. You can tell who has succumbed to the syndrome that is slowly eating away our civilizational immune system. Right. And cannot perceive basic moral reality. Common sense that they would be wearing that mask Indoors in May 2022, May 22, 2025. And then have the gall to. To not just say, oh, well, you know, there he goes again, that guy.

[John Podhoretz]

Who says, I'm doing this for myself. Like, I have to admit, I'm a little nervous that I know, but it's a political statement.

[Abe Greenwald]

Statement. Right.

[John Podhoretz]

It's.

[Abe Greenwald]

To wear that mask now is a political statement. Or it's a sign, like Noah just said, that you are so drowned in this culture of the left that you can't even perceive the alternatives. But then to get up and walk away. And what another example. Yesterday, the Supreme Court ruled on its shadow docket that a main legislator, Maine state legislator, had to have her free speech rights restored. This is an elected state legislator from a district in Maine whose free speech rights had been stripped from her. She could not vote, she could not speak on the state House floor of the main lower chamber.

[John Podhoretz]

Why?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Because.

[Abe Greenwald]

Because she had the temerity to write a Facebook post suggesting that biological men should not participate in women's sports. And for that, the Democrats in the main state house deprived her of a basic constitutional right, which, by the way, free speech is important. It's even more important in a legislature. That's why you have to. That the whole point of a legislature is to debate and to talk. Right. They're saying she could not do talk until she apologized to the quote, unquote trans community. So it's not. It's this. It's this radical vision, this deadly vision. And then if you wait, the second you challenge the vision, you're censored.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. And what happened in the vote at the Supreme Court, which.

[Abe Greenwald]

7 to 2.

[John Podhoretz]

7 to 2. Why not 9 to 0? Because Ketanji Brown, Jackson and Sonia Sotomayor are like, well, you know, why are we even told? Why are we.

[Abe Greenwald]

You know, it's interesting, Sotomayor did not even write a dissent.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

Which it's always. I'm always happy when she decides not to write. But Justice Jackson, interestingly enough, voted no on solely on procedural grounds. In fact says yes. It's likely that the plaintiff is going to win the case. But even there, it should be 9, 0. I mean, it's insane.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. I mean, Kagan voted.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, Kagan, Right. Yeah.

[John Podhoretz]

So anyway. But I mean, it's interesting. The reason I bring it up is only to say that, fine. So Somayer wouldn't say why, and Jackson hid behind procedural matters, and they voted against it because they're part of that consensus.

[Abe Greenwald]

No, you're right.

[John Podhoretz]

Clearly they will vote. However, whatever is represents the dominant liberal view on matters they will reflect. It's their job to reflect that view. Even if it goes to something as absolutely open and shut as the notion that the Maine State House is not allowed to silence somebody who is an elected representative of the people of Maine. You can censure somebody, sure. You can even expel somebody. There's a. There are procedures, I'm sure in the Maine state constitution that grant the power of expulsion for heinous acts. They're probably, they're probably laid out specifically in the law. So I'm sure saying something about trans doesn't trigger it. Maybe being convicted of a crime or something does trigger the possibility of expulsion. But there is a modality under which legislatures can remove people or criticize them.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, essentially.

[John Podhoretz]

I mean, but we not disallow them from voting. That is disenfranchisement of the people.

[Abe Greenwald]

Of the people. And who, and on top of it all, the people who do this, the main speaker and the people who stomp out in protest of J. Bhattacharya, they all think that they are defending democracy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[John Podhoretz]

Walter Russell Mead's point in another excellent, excellent op ed the other day in the Wall Street Journal, which is that everybody is now acting or not everybody, a certain brand of respect opinion both here and in Europe and elsewhere is acting as though democracy is fragile. And the fact is democracy, particularly in the United States is the hardiest system on earth as long as there are checks and balances. We have now what is likely outside of Switzerland, the longest lived government on the face of the earth governed by. By the same Constitution that was written and passed and amended 134 years ago. Right. Or 136 years ago. Like that is how the United States government governed under the same Constitution without any. With emendations but no fundamental alterations. We are. Democracy is strong when represent Republican Democrat. Democratic government is strong, not weak. It can withstand. It does not need silencing, it does not need disinformation. Departments hunting down examples of people who say things about COVID that might get people killed. In your opinion, who are in fact saying the things that won't get people.

[Abe Greenwald]

Killed in the obvious thing.

[Noah Rothman]

But just.

[Abe Greenwald]

I know I'm correcting, I know I'm correcting you today. I don't want to. Yeah, but it's like 230 years.

[John Podhoretz]

The Constitution was 91.

[Abe Greenwald]

1789 was when the Constitution ratified. You said 130.

[John Podhoretz]

I just thought, oh my God, the.

[Abe Greenwald]

Emails have been flooding in all week.

[John Podhoretz]

You know, because we're all.

[Noah Rothman]

It's assumed that we're all enumerate. We're in this business.

[John Podhoretz]

But I was. But I was up all night. Just to be fair. I was. I was reading up on this.

[Abe Greenwald]

No and you. Your piece was brilliant and excellent and.

[John Podhoretz]

I have a. I have a. Thank you. I have a post up at Commentary that I put up at about midnight last night. But I was up on my dog was also having a total lunatic fit because it was. There was a rainstorm and was keeping us up all night anyway. So can I just. I apologize.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'd say something about that point about the Walter Russell meat point about your dog.

[John Podhoretz]

How was your dog.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, no, no, no. My.

[John Podhoretz]

My dog is fine. Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Fine.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Rain doesn't get her trucks hissing hissing bus brakes.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Same daylights out of her.

[John Podhoretz]

I feel the same way.

[Matthew Kahn]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

About Walter Russell Mead's point about the strength of democracy that is strong. I think what is fragile is the culture of classical liberalism is the. Is keeping the people within a democratic republic. Liberty minded, liberal minded liberal in the classical sense. The temptation to stray and break that all down within the bounds of an ongoing democracy. That's the danger and that's what we're watching. It's not a threat to democracy. It's a threat to liberal thought and ideals.

[John Podhoretz]

Well look, one of the excuses for the radicalization of the Russian intelligentsia in the last quarter of the 19th century was of course that they were not living in a democracy. They were living in a relatively enlightened system dominated by a tsar. Right. Alexander II was a relatively enlightened. He liberated the serfs. He allowed for certain. He allowed for certain elements of free speech and stuff like that. And when he was assassinated in 1881, his son Alexander III then slammed the door on all liberalism as a security measure for his own and his family's safety that ultimately ended up. They met assassin's bullets in 19 well that was actually his son Nicholas, but following the policies of his father. Anyway, I think what the other thing to be said here if we're going into other things that connect with this is so I am obviously I am not a fan. In fact, I'm repulsed by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. I think his vaccine ideas are horrific and terrible. But. And here's the big but. But the decision yesterday or the day before yesterday to say that it will be the recommendation of the Department of Health not to vaccinate young children for Covid or not to you it's not even really a vaccine.

[Noah Rothman]

Not to recommend.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Noah Rothman]

What it's just not to recommend.

[John Podhoretz]

Not to recommend. Thank you very much. Not to recommend that kids be vaccinated for Covid. And Catherine Wu at the, at the Atlantic wrote a piece about how, oh my God, it's happening. You know, it's not just measles. Now they're coming after Covid. Children should not be vaccinated for Covid. When it was determined that children over the age of five had to be vaccinated for Covid. At the time that that was happening in the midst of the COVID pandemic, when a million people were on the way to being dying, the total number of people between the ages of 0 and 18 who had died from COVID was less than 1000 out of a million.

[Noah Rothman]

You know who's most likely to reject that empirically defensible observation? The misinformation? Reporters. I saw tons of reporters, actually, journalists who are who were talking about how relieved they were to get their infant children, young children vaccinated at the height of the pandemic, assuming they had never encountered this information about it. How the low lethality when it comes to childhood infections of COVID 19. But maybe they just didn't process it. Maybe it just washed right over them like the, like the androids in, in that book where, you know, they're looking at their own schematics and they don't know what they're looking at. They're not programmed to see it. Like they just can't process it.

[John Podhoretz]

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[Matthew Kahn]

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[John Podhoretz]

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[Matthew Kahn]

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[Rob Williams]

Rob Williams, executive director of the USC Shoah Foundation. Survivors of the Holocaust have long been the bravest voices speaking out against antisemitism and all forms of hate around the world, whether it's European antisemitism of the 1930s and 1940s or the anti Semitism we see on our streets and campuses today. We'll explore it on the USC Shoah Foundation's new podcast, Searching for Never Again Will hear stories that are heartbreaking and stories that are inspiring every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever fine podcasts can be found.

[John Podhoretz]

So the one piece of data that came out about the COVID vaccine, that was a warning sign, and that I think both Pfizer and Astragenica both said, was that there were signs in the data that for young men between the ages of 15 and 30, in very few in select cases, but enough that it was statistically observable in the longitudinal studies of the MRNA vaccine, that there could be heart issues related to the vaccine. And again, you're talking about a cohort in which almost nobody died. The older you got, the more likely you were to get sick and die. And obviously that. And if you had associated morbidities like obesity or diabetes or things like that, that's where you could start saying, well, you know, it may be better be safe than sorry. Even if there's a small risk, it's probably better to take the COVID vaccine than not. But it wasn't just taking the COVID vaccine. Cause we all know that the COVID vaccine is not impregnable. Like that's why you were supposed to. You kept getting boosters. It was this question of whether or not we're going to spend our entire lives getting the next version and the next version and the next version. And that a not inconsiderable number of people were getting sick from the boosters. Now, were they being protected from COVID Maybe. But Covid then was weak. Covid is now weak. People get it. I have friends who get it. You know, they come back, they have it, they have it for four they're not even sick. But they test positive for it. They get a sore throat, they test positive for it, then it goes away in four or five days. So this is part of the cognitive madness that can grip people. And it's worse the more educated you are, which is, I think, the point that the op ed by the Wayne State University professor whose name I'm not even going to try, given my, my problem with names. This brilliant op ed in the Wall Street Journal makes the point that you can be gripped by irrationality as a result of the courting of your pretentiousness or the idea that you are a person who knows the difference and has a sophisticated understanding of things. Not like these yahoos who are like, if I don't need to get a shot, I'm not gonna get a shot. Like, you know, that's a, that's something I do. That's an undescribing, so that we can.

[Noah Rothman]

Bring this all back to the, the murders last night. Because what you're describing is the, the mentality that conspiracy theorists subscribe to, that they are sufficiently enlightened that they can peel back the curtain and see the hideous hidden workings of the world that the average person simply cannot. And conspiratorial thought invariably leads to. Anti Semitism tends to, I should say, but tends very often insofar as that conspiracy is the essential conspiracy theory, that there is this cabal, a secretive, empowered, omniscient, yet ill defined cabal that has stolen from you that which is your due or that is meting out horrors and engineering disasters for their benefit and at your detriment. This is the essential conspiracy theory.

[Abe Greenwald]

The bottom line for me is the supporters of Hamas killed an Israeli mother on a highway last week. Mother of four, carrying another, carrying another child. And then they kill two young people, one of whom is an Israeli Christian.

[John Podhoretz]

Right? That's right. So that's the, the Yaron was.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, is a Christian, but he's, he's Israeli and he was attending a Jewish event at a Jewish cultural center. And the dehumanization of Jews as part of this politics organized to eliminate the state of Israel, rid the Middle east of Jews and, and take the intifada global is, is, is despicable wherever it's, wherever it happens. And so, you know, if there's a public policy response here, it's obviously to enforce the rule of law and get to the bottom of this particular case. But it's more broadly what Danielle Pletka advised Commentary readers last year, which is to smash the anti Semitism network. And I have to say that is what the Trump administration is trying to do. You might not like the way they're doing it, but that is what they're trying to do. I wish they also extended that attempt to smash the anti Semitism network to Qatar, which, which is behind a lot of It. But let's take, let's take our gains where we can and focus on the institutions here in the United States and in the universities and with these students who are behind the tentifada and the harassment of Jews on America's campuses.

[John Podhoretz]

Can I talk a little about this as well? Because this is one of these moments we are standing at hinge moment because we don't know what the knock on effects of this will be like. You connected it to Luigi Mangione, which I think is a very acceptable thing to do. If someone shoots somebody in the back on a street and is lionized and people are like writing songs and for political reasons. Right, for political reasons in ideology. And your Elias sitting there in Chicago and going, boy, that's cool. I feel the same way. His website, the website of his party for socialism and liberation is about smashing capitalism. What is Luigi Mangione's purpose is to smash capitalism in the form of taking out individual. An individual healthcare executive as a symbol. And what do they have in common by the way? Mangione and Elias, they are. They have no records. As far as we know they did. They've never, they've never been involved in illegal activity before. You can find, you can find Elias's LinkedIn page. He works for the American Osteopathic Information association, graduate of the University of Illinois in Chicago. And, and he is a member of this very radical, very extreme split, you know, whatever fringe group that. Nonetheless, it only takes one, right? That's the thing about terrorism. It only takes one or 19 working in a group to kill 3,000 people. Right. In 2001. Yeah.

[Noah Rothman]

Not to be a complete partisan hack here, but what did so many progressive lawmakers do in the wake of the killing of the United Healthcare CEO? You know, they did the. Yeah, bad, but. Right. Elizabeth Warren, Alexandria, Casio Cortez, Chris Murphy, on and on and on, trying to glom on to what they saw as this online movement. At any time they see any zeal online for their cause, they just rushed to embrace it totally heedlessly. What did these same people do over the course of the 2024 election campaign when confronted with this nihilistic pro Palestinian, pro Hamas demonstrators? They have a point, right? Yeah, sure. But Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, what's the distinction between the. They have a point for. For the violent pro Hamas demonstrators and Luigi Mangione and his bloodletting act of human sacrifice? You can understand where they're coming from. Why wouldn't that incentivize more murders?

[John Podhoretz]

But I think that's the point is now we've had two in three months and the blood is in the water. And the question is, what happens now? Because this is how it starts. This is how waves of terrorism start. And we have been sitting here saying for years, it's not 1968, it's not 1968, it'S not 1968, it's not the SDS, it's not 1968. Maybe it's 1968.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Especially if you throw in the assassination attempts on Trump.

[Abe Greenwald]

Right, right.

[John Podhoretz]

Assassination attempts on Trump and the attempt to burn Josh Shapiro and his family alive in a fire. Right. I mean, those are two assassination attempts. You can't say that setting Shapiro's mansion on fire was not an assassination attempt. It happened at 2 o' clock in the morning while they were sleeping. You know, they, they could have been. Who knows what pattern the fire might have taken that could have killed them. It's no joke. So, yeah, Trump is Trump. Two assassination attempts on Trump in the space of six weeks, eight weeks. I can't even remember now when the, when the golf course one was after Butler. Yeah. So assassination attempts, individual acts of terrorism. And the point here is now that there is, the FBI is going to have to look in to see whether Elias was part of some network, he's part of a party. Does he have a manifesto? He's alive. So, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a very big deal that he's alive and said, I did it on tape. So, you know, he could, of course, go into a courtroom and plead not guilty and refuse to speak, but he's already said he did it and he's proud of it. And he said, free, free Palestine. So maybe he'll open up and tell everybody what happened. Who knows? I think that hinge moments are very important because we. What ifs? So what if Kamala Harris had won in November? Would the statements of the Harris administration in response to an event like this have been as forthright and unapologetic and strong and harsh as the Trump administration's? The statement by Rubio, the statement by the President himself, the statement by Cash Patel, the statement by Pam Bondi. And what do they all say that even Alexandria Ocasio, they said, this is an act of anti Semitism, Jew hate. We are going to, we are going to hunt down and combat the evil of anti Semitism on our shores before things get worse. And that's why we're doing what we're doing on college campuses. That's not only why they're pursuing, you know, Mahmoud Khalil and various other people. It's why they are suing Harvard, why they are withholding funds from Columbia and Harvard, but hundreds of millions of dollars. Why. Why they are going to use title six again against universities for unequal treatment of Jewish students. And none of that, in my view. I mean, obviously Harris administration would condemn the event and like the FBI director would say, we stand at the ready to do whatever. But they would say, hate has no place here.

[Abe Greenwald]

Here's an illustration of that.

[John Podhoretz]

And it is us. That's the point. It is us.

[Abe Greenwald]

Here's the Leo Terrell who now works at the DOJ as part of the anti Semitism task force. And he posted on X two hours ago, quote, this goes far beyond the murder of two individuals. It reflects a systemic crisis of anti Semitism seen in the shooter's hatred, the failure to enforce hate crime statutes, the institutions that help shape him and the media narratives that normalize or excuse anti Semitism. This is not an isolated act. It is a result of a society that has allowed anti Semitism to fester unchecked. This must stop now. I can't think of a better, better statement.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

I think that. I think he just sums it up right there. And I can tell you the Harris administration would not have released that. That statement. It would have been. Obviously, they would have released a statement that was, you know, deploring the act, deploring anti Semitism, but would have not gone to the. The structure. The structure of it. The systemic. That word, systemic cross crisis, which I think is absolutely the case and has policy choices that need to be made to fight it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it would have been anti Semitism and Islamophobia.

[Abe Greenwald]

That's right.

[Noah Rothman]

Well, to be fair, Kamala Harris has issued a statement this morning and it does say, you know, condemns a shocking act of anti Semitic violence. I stand with the Jewish community condemning this sickening violence. Anti Semitism and violence have no place in their country. It does, however, end with, we must all come together and fight hatred.

[John Podhoretz]

Hatred, hatred. Right, right. So that's the whole point about antisemitism, is that it is a different. It is not hatred. It is the world's oldest hatred. It is a very specific form of hatred that has a different ideology from other hatreds which are not genocidal. Right. Other forms of hatreds are, again, anti life. They are. They are monstrous, they are dehumanizing, they are vicious. They. They take people and look. Look at them as tokens. Right. That's terrible. Jews are among the very few people on this planet who are targeted for being Jews. And even if they're mistakenly targeted for being Jews in a weird way, like Jerome Liszitski, who is not Jewish, he's an Israeli, and he. He is working at the Israeli Embassy, but he's not a Jew. I don't quite know how this works in his case. He was born in Nuremberg, Germany. We know from Ambassador Ron Prosor, who was his teacher at Reichman in Israel, formerly IDC Herzeliya, and knew him in part because he was. He is the current, I believe, current ambassador to Germany for Israel. But that just adds another wrinkle. Like if you even consort with Jews or hang out with Jews or a part of the world of Jews, you are, as a Jew to people, or.

[Abe Greenwald]

The distinction doesn't even matter. The shooter didn't know. He just wanted to kill Jews assembled at a Jewish event.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. And what happened, by the way, after he shot them? He shot them, threw the gun into a bush, and then went in the.

[Abe Greenwald]

Building to declare his allegiance.

[John Podhoretz]

No. 15 minutes. Went into the building. He sat down on a bench, looking extraordinarily nervous and sort of out of sorts and freaked out. And three or four people sat down next to him and said, are you okay? Do you need some water? Is that. Are you all right? Is everything all right? And then he jumped up after 15 minutes, said, I did it. Pulled the keffiyeh out of his shirt, said, free, free Palestine. And then the security guards came in and grabbed him. He was inside the building. Had he had the gun with him, he could have kept shooting. For some reason, he threw it away. We don't know. You know, he did something that had been in his brain that he finally, you know, executed. And then he didn't know what to do with the excess energy that he had and went inside to be comforted by the people he wanted to murder. Who comforted him? You know, it is. It's sort of. It beggars belief. But I think the point that you're making about Leo Terrell and, you know, and Kamala Harris's statement and all that this is very important because there is going to be pushback. It's going to be in 48 hours that this is going to trigger Islamophobia. People are going to. Even though it does not appear that he is a Muslim himself, but this will trigger Islamophobia, and we need to stand resolutely again.

[Abe Greenwald]

There will be context. There was context on my NPR hate podcast this morning where they said this shooting took place while Israel was under immense pressure and allowed in the 93 trucks. And amazingly, as Seth was saying on the show yesterday, none of the trucks actually got to the civilians who want the food or need the food. All the food goes to the terrorists who are still there, you know, embedded and in hiding. But nonetheless, that's that. That's immediately that. Well, we have to set this. Set this act in the broader background of Israel's war against Hamas. And you know, we have. People are. People are beginning to recognize or that Israel is just going on too. Too far.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's also similar to the Magione shooting.

[Abe Greenwald]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, it was like same. This is what. But it's terrible. But we need to talk about what's going on.

[Abe Greenwald]

America's health care system.

[John Podhoretz]

Have a conversation.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Noah Rothman]

We were talking earlier about masking.

[Matthew Kahn]

Right.

[Noah Rothman]

And the extent to which masking went from being a. An act of self preservation into a symbol of menace. And it was regarded as that free protection of free expression notwithstanding, there are certain places and times and manners in which you cannot have a mask because it is associated with petty criminality. For example, what point do we get to that with the keffiyeh? The keffiyeh is a symbol of terrorism. It is adorned by people who want to shield their identity from investigators because they are behaving in ways that are either proscribed or illegal. At what point do we begin to talk about this thing as though it is, again, symbols of free expression notwithstanding a declaration of intent to engage in criminality and violence?

[John Podhoretz]

It look well put.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, there used to be a slew of state laws against covering your face in public because that clan.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yes. They're targeting the Klan. We now see the new 21st century manifestation of the clan.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

In. In the kefi of masking thugs who harass, terrorize, and now murder. Yeah. Jews and their allies.

[John Podhoretz]

So watch as those who. Everybody is issuing a statement saying how heartbroken they are. Aoc, Chris Van Hollen, all sorts of anti Israel, unspeakable, anti Semitic legislators nonetheless expressing their shock and arrogance. This has no place and all of that. Let's see how they respond when action starts to be taken, because you know what I mean? Let's see. We know how they're gonna respond. And that is another reason why hinge moment that this represents. It's one of those moments in which I can say thank God that Trump was elected, despite everything that I'm deeply worried and concerned about, because they're gonna go at this. And the idea of you know what, this is really not that great for us. Cuz it's gonna inflame. You know, let's talk seriously behind closed doors. Like this is gonna inflame people that we need on our side in a low turnout midterm election that we're gonna need to pull out. And we need the party united because also Hitler is in the White House and controlling his black shirts. And so we have to stay, stay united and we can't be attacking other people, people on the left.

[Abe Greenwald]

Harris did not appear in public with Netanyahu when he visited.

[Matthew Kahn]

Right?

[Abe Greenwald]

She skipped the speech. She met with him in private.

[John Podhoretz]

2024, right, last year.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, she skipped his speech to Congress. She met with him in private and then she came out of that meeting and read a ridiculous statement to the press.

[John Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

And then of course she just, then she didn't take any questions and she went back to her next event. And so just imagine if she were president right now. We would be with the UK and with France and Spain trying to stop this. Canada, right. We would be with them. We would, whatever would be going on with Iran policy would not even hold out the possibility that America would either tacitly or expressly back and an Israeli operation to take out the nuclear infrastructure if the deal fails. And the attempt to root out antisemitism in America's institutions of higher learning and to apply the civil rights law, which is what Leo Terrell is saying, the law that's on the books, apply it to include Jews. That would not be happening.

[John Podhoretz]

Right. I want to just finish again with, with a little personal thing here which is my son goes every day to a Jewish institution to go to school. We go every weekend to a synagogue on the Sabbath for morning services. These are institutions in an open city in New York with a very bad DA who doesn't want to prosecute anybody and all of that. And what is going to happen over the next couple of days that my school is going to have to be hardened. Our shul is going to have to be hardened. I have to think about certain types of things. Like I'm supposed to speak at an all night event in a couple of.

[Matthew Kahn]

Weeks.

[John Podhoretz]

On the holiday of Shavuot where it is a tradition that Jews study all night. It's called the Tikkun. And this is a very open event in New York City. And I'm not sure that we should go. I'm not sure that this event should take place. I don't know. I mean on the one hand you don't want to hide. And you need to be resolute and tough and you can't let them stop you. Keep shopping after 9 11. But. But I mean, this is not a keep shopping after 9 11. It's literally a thing where prudence dictates that you don't just stand and provide a target for somebody who can run up to your. To wherever you are and basically provide a bullseye for a bullet. Like it's a. This is what the reality is. Right after what happened last night. I'm thinking about my son.

[Abe Greenwald]

I'm thinking.

[John Podhoretz]

I'm thinking about my synagogue. I'm thinking about a community center that will celebrate this holiday where we celebrate the giving of the Torah at Sinai to Moses.

[Noah Rothman]

I think the 911 analogy is perfect because you were confronted at that time with those very fears. And the consideration was, well, we're surrounded by soft targets. We have to either harden every soft target target, make those targets of opportunity, shopping malls, grocery stores, churches, synagogues, all of them impregnable fortresses, and militarize American life, or you go at the source and you stop terrorism from the font from which it springs. And that's what we're confronted with. Now, as you said in a reply to Jake Sherman, there are steps you can take in order to go on the offense. And now's the time for offense.

[John Podhoretz]

Noah Rothman, thanks so much for joining us on this extraordinarily sad day for Matt and Abe. I'm John Podwort's Keep the Candle bur.