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- [00:00]
John Podhoretz
Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary hope.
- [02:19]
Mark Halpern
For the.
- [02:23]
Christine Rosen
Expect a wor Some preacher.
- [02:25]
Mark Halpern
Pain some die of thirst no way of knowing this way it's going Hope.
- [02:33]
Christine Rosen
For the best expect the worst.
- [02:38]
John Podhoretz
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast. Today is Monday, October 13, 2025. I'm John Pod Horitz, the editor of Commentary. Truly historic day and a day that I will remember forever. Not only because of what happened last night and this morning. It is also my 23rd wedding anniversary and the 19th birthday of my daughter Shiri. So the date October 13th already very much an eternal one in my head. Other people will remember this for being on the eve of Simchat Torah, the very holiday that on which the nightmare of the hostages began two years ago, ending with Silk Hat Torah happening tonight. It's tonight, right? Or the tomorrow. It's tomorrow night. But yeah, basically everybody in the speeches, Trump and Bibi were all talking like it's Simcha Torah. So I'm going to go with that, too. So that will be the, that will be how history records this from Simcha Torah to Simcha Torah. But it has a remarkably personal effect. I'm very emotionally wrought up right now, so I don't know how the podcast is going to go. I will have to rely on my less emotional colleagues perhaps to keep me in balance. Those colleagues, of course, being executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
- [04:16]
Abe Greenwald
Hi, John.
- [04:18]
John Podhoretz
Social commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.
- [04:20]
Christine Rosen
Hi, John.
- [04:21]
John Podhoretz
And senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
- [04:24]
Christine Rosen
Hi, John.
- [04:27]
John Podhoretz
I will say this. I'm not, I'm not. My emotions are not brought up because of the release of the hostages per se. There are some very moving videos even as early as this morning, a couple of hours later, of them being greeted by their families and all that, all of which are, you know, enough to make, you know, any person who is a monster dissolve into, into tears. My emotions were brought up, to be honest, by the speeches that I just heard in the Knesset by Prime Minister Netanyahu and, and, and Donald Trump. And we can get into what is Trump loves to call things historic and say that something has happened that has never happened before. And that's, he'll say that about, you know, you know, the Easter Egg Roll at the White House that he surveys if he has to. But the case that he made that something has happened that has never happened before, and the hour long case that he made about what has happened course of his leadership both in the first term and the second term, in the transformation of the Middle east leading to this moment that we are at now was so overwhelming in its detail, in its self confidence and in the remarkably high good humor and contentment that he was displaying, which are not the usual blissful, blissed out tone that one, one that's not a tone one associates with him, just brought home to me what a miraculous alteration took place in the way the United States viewed this conflict and Israel the Middle east with his second, really his coming to power for the, the second time. And for those of us who view Israel as a providential nation and think that there, there is something going on here that is that surpasses simple human understanding, it's very hard not to look at this moment, listen to the rhetoric that Trump deployed as he stood on the floor of the Knesset and think that something providential happened with his election. Unanticipatable, I think. And that has been crowned with glory, and not just the glory of getting the hostages back, which a lot of us didn't really anticipate would happen, the living hostages, but the nature of the overwhelming series of victories that Israel has scored over the last two years. Some of them in spite of American hostility or discomfort, like the attack on Hezbollah and in Beirut in September 24, some of it with grudging American support, like support for Israel's efforts to belay the Iranian attack on Israel's territory in October of 2024. And then some of it with the actual active, open and proud participation of this administration in fighting against Iran and destroying the Iranian nuclear program and giving Israel the support it needed and supporting Israel as it essentially relaunched the war in the last four weeks to provide the final push, along with the attack on Doha, to get Arab countries and Muslim countries and others to say we are done with this two year catastrophe that we decided we were going to support for a while of Hamas's incursion into Israel in the attempt to delegitimize Israel through the, through claiming, making these horrible false and slanderous and anti Semitic claims about the purpose and nature of the war in Gaza, to this deal and to the fact that the hostages, the 20 living hostages have been, have been returned. I will go talk more in detail about the speeches and the feelings last night. But that's, you know, that's where I am, Seth, who was a more devout Jew than I am and a better Jew than I am. There are questions.
- [09:23]
Christine Rosen
No such thing as better.
- [09:25]
John Podhoretz
Yeah, well, there's worse. I can name many worse Jews than I am, so I don't know if there's worse. There has to be better. But in the spirit of magnanimity, I will not name them here, though you've heard me name them many times before. But there is a controversy about doing what I'm about to do, which is say a prayer. A lot of people say you really shouldn't say it until the night of a holiday or the beginning of a festival or a particular kind of religious moment in which you gather together. It's called the Shehechianu prayer. Baruch hatanayolam, Shehechianu vakiyamanu vahigyanu Lazman Hazeh. Which is what? Which is you say it means. Again, let's. I'm going to turn to you to Help me get.
- [10:22]
Christine Rosen
Essentially brought us to this moment.
- [10:24]
John Podhoretz
Yes. To thank God who has brought us to this moment. So where we can.
- [10:31]
Christine Rosen
Parents did say it. Parents said it as they hugged their children last night. This morning, whatever we consider it, you know, it's the hostages reunited. There were a lot of Shahianu prayer said at that time as well.
- [10:42]
John Podhoretz
Yeah. As I say, there is some controversy about whether or not that's kosher in some ways because you shouldn't say without a 10 person minion or there's various other ideas, but that this is what you say to thank God for bringing us to a specific moment, particularly a holiday. And if there were ever a moment at which to say this is the, this is the morning that when you, at a time when you wouldn't ordinarily do it, this, this would be the morning to do that.
- [11:14]
Christine Rosen
The other, the other fun blessing question was Lahav Harkov of Jewish Insider tweeted that a. A member of one of the religious parties asked the Sephardic Chief Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef, if when he, meaning the member this, this Knesset member from the religious party Shas, when he meets Trump, is he supposed to say the blessing that one says upon meeting a king? And the chief, the chief Sephardic rabbi responded, yes, because Trump has many of the powers of a king. But it should be said without God's name recited because Trump wears regular clothes and his powers do have some earthly limit.
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John Podhoretz
There you go.
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Christine Rosen
If you're wondering how we could turn any of this into a Talmudic, you know, thing, but there you go.
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John Podhoretz
There you go. So general thoughts and impressions of, of the last, really, it's like the last five, six hours.
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Christine Rosen
Can this, this might sound odd, but it is just a general impression I've had. And it sounds odd because part of the reason we have been able to get to this moment is because Trump has taken a very transactional approach to this conflict, but all while remaining very close to Israel. But there was a sense, I mean, watching these hostages reunited with their families, obviously, like if you, it just brought tears to my eyes. There was also, though, a kind of familial sense about the Knesset today when Netanyahu was speaking, when Trump was speaking. And there is something, and you're right, John, to note that he seemed more relaxed and magnanimous and happy, happier than we've seen him in this term. And I think that's because it does feel like family. And he repeatedly talked about his love for Israel, his love for the Jewish people, how close we are that we're there was a constant affirmation of that relationship. And that struck me as hugely important for a number of reasons, obviously, going forward, because the really tough battle now begins. What happens in Gaza now? And you know, he's, he left Israel on his way to Egypt. But there's also this question of how the world sees American power with its ally. And that debate will continue. And having Trump there with his daughter and son in law, who he also called out and praised for Jared's excellent work on this, at the same time that we're now getting these news reports about how for the last few years, a lot of these Arab countries have actually been coming to some behind the scenes agreements with Israel about military power. There's a lot of stuff moving right now. And he was the prime mover. And for that, he deserves to spend the next 24 to 48 hours basking in his accomplishment. Is a huge accomplishment and it's nice to see him happy and enjoying it. And the love that the Israeli people have demonstrated for Donald Trump in the last few hours, I mean, there was a, there was a shot of as Air Force One was coming in on a beach. There was this wonderful, huge, you know, mural thanking him. The front page of all the newspapers thanking him. It's a rare moment in a very hostile world to have everyone come together in this way. And I think it's worth appreciating that. And it's ironic that it's Trump, but it couldn't have happened without Trump.
- [14:36]
John Podhoretz
Yeah.
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Abe Greenwald
Israel is a country of Trump fans and they've been, you know, from their perspective, sort of speaking to him directly. This whole time they've been calling on Trump to do this or something like this, and they feel that he's responded to them and he knows it. He's, he is basking in it. They'll, they'll boo Bibi and cheer Trump over the, over the same accomplishment.
- [15:09]
John Podhoretz
I mean, the two are connected. Obviously. One of the reasons that Trump is so. And to describe Trump as popular in Israel is to Trump is to Israel as Taylor Swift is to the 11 year old Midwestern girl. I mean, that, that is, that is who that is. That is who he is.
- [15:35]
Christine Rosen
They did put up a sign comparing him to Cyrus, which is the first, the first time since Harry Truman that an American president has, has gotten the Cyrus comparison.
- [15:46]
John Podhoretz
We should probably explain that. Cyrus the Great, of course, the Persian king in the sixth century B.C. restored, allowed the Jews to return from exile to the Holy Land and has been a hero in Jewish history ever since sort of the original, as you might say, the original righteous Gentile. And so people are forever, when they want to make analogies, are often looking to hoping that an American leader of some sort will be the Cyrus, will play the role of the Cyrus. And even the ones that have been extraordinarily friendly toward Israel at various points in the course of their presidencies have never, when push comes to shove, achieved Cyrus like stature in the eyes of Jews and of Israelis, because they're always competing factors. At some point in the course of what seems to be wholehearted support, there will be a pullback. Famously in 2006 when Condoleezza Rice, then Secretary of State, basically informed that it was time for the war in Lebanon to end after 32 days because apparently 33 days was too many and 31 days wasn't enough. And, and left Israel in the position where, you know, 18, 19 years later, they had to, they had to blow up individual members of Hezbollah by the thousands with their beepers in order to end a threat that they could have ended had America shown the kind of support for Israel in 2006 that it's shown over the course of the last couple of months. But that's the, that's the Cyrus analogy. But it's very important to note that Trump's popularity comes a little bit at the expense of Netanyahu or is, or is doubled and redoubled because so many in Israel do not want to give Netanyahu credit for anything and, and really, really dislike him. Which is we could mention, even though it's really not an important moment, improvised moment toward the end of his hour long speech when all of a sudden Trump turns to Israel's president and says, why don't you give him a pardon? Give him a pardon. Come on, give him a pardon. Because Bibi isn't a, has been throughout his tenure as Prime Minister has been dealing with a legal. And these, there are four cases now there are really two cases against him which, which, and Trump is right to think that they are wildly similar to some of the trumped up charges against him. Funny moment that he said today was like champagne and cigars. Like, who cares about that? Because one of the major charges is that Bibi, who shows absolutely no signs of any personal financial corruption. I mean he's been, he's been a major figure in Israeli politics for 45 years, let's say 40 years. Various other prime, including the aforementioned Eru Omer, went to jail for taking actual money from American fixers and the like. And BB was Apparently gifted some cigars and some champagne by the film producer and former arms dealer Arne Milchin. And that, that, that, that the fact that he handed him some cigars and some champagne and I think BB doesn't really drink, so the champagne was something else, is deemed an act of, you know, was, was considered a bribe, apparently a ridiculous charge. He's been going to court, courthouses, making court appearances in the last six months, two or three times a week while he is the Prime Minister of a country at war. This is how deranged Israel's political system can be. One of the reasons that we have a system where we have determined that the President should not be tried for things unless they're, unless, unless it's by the Senate through the process of impeachment and, you know, and potential conviction that the President should not be tried for things while he's at home because he's got a more important job to do. And Bibi really had a more important job to do here. And yet he has managed to do it while being distracted by this ludicrous set of charges which are simply part and parcel of the Israeli left's effort to get rid of him because they can't do it at the ballot box or get him out as leader of the, of the, of the leading right wing coalition. So it was a pretty funny moment for Trump at the height of his popularity with the entire Knesset, like in a, in a, 120 members of the Knesset, sort of in this worshipful affect to make an ask. It's the only ask he made in the speech. He didn't say take risks for peace. He didn't say, you know, you know, can we have this? Or I would like that. Or he just said, give him a pardon.
- [21:27]
Christine Rosen
But this is his personal style. I mean, the other thing, the noticeable thing I saw is that, you know, when they, when they embraced and he's like, you know, he's a difficult guy, but he's great. He's a difficult guy, but he's great. I mean, that was, could have, he could have been describing himself. But the personal, the personal contact throughout the process of these negotiations is important. I was reading about how part of the reason Jared Kushner became so vital towards the end is that he actually, he and Steve Woodkoff met with the representatives of Hamas. I mean, which was required by Hamas. Hamas wanted to see the personal reassurance of the President's son in law, a negotiator who would say, look them in the eye and say, yes, he's going to Trump is going to back up this plan and whatnot. And that again, at a time where I think abstractions have flown about who's responsible for what when those personal details at the end. That's something Trump has always been very good at as a dealmaker. And I think going forward he now has this confidence about dealmaking. He was talking a lot about Tomahawk missiles being given to Ukraine, well, in the last 24 hours as well. So there's this sense of momentum. I think he will try to hopefully continue saying, well, I've solved this problem. Let's, let's move on to the next one. And that's all for the good if you care about the future of Western civilization. But to me, it's that those personal details that I think often undermine his domestic policymaking, but in this context have proven invaluable.
- [22:51]
John Podhoretz
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- [25:34]
Abe Greenwald
You know, in contrast to everything we're saying here, there is a, there is a different narrative that is being proffered on a lot of cable news or network news that I was watching this morning. The story is Trump got so mad about the Israeli strike on Qatar that that then pushed him to force Bibi into a deal. That is, there's a, there's an inability among this huge segment of the American liberals who don't like Trump or Bibi to accept that this was the fruits of a very strong partnership.
- [26:30]
Christine Rosen
Yeah, well, that's the daylight thing, right, which has been demonstrated over and over again. If you want Israel to make certain sacrifices for peace, you show that, you know, the United States stands behind them. I mean, it's a very basic thing.
- [26:46]
John Podhoretz
But we'll talk about the daylight thing for a minute because you're making references to the moment, a key moment in American history just after Barack Obama won his command.
- [26:55]
Christine Rosen
Barack Obama was, when Barack Obama was elected, he took, he took office in 2009, and he had a meeting with American Jewish leaders. And he said the policy of no daylight, which is, you know, where the US And Israel obviously, you know, the metaphor, I think is clear. But no crack, no light get through the cracks. No cracks. That he said, the policy of daylight, what has it gotten us? It's gotten us no peace. It didn't solve the conflict. So, you know, essentially, maybe it's time for some daylight. It's time to, you know, separate and try something new. Then the American Jewish leaders were pretty, I mean, I think shocked to a man who were, you know, the ones who were there, that the president would say that to them knowing, you know, and I think this was his intention, that it would be leaked, that it would get out, that Obama said this, you know, and that it would make the point that he wanted to make. But Obama's belief in the fact that daylight hadn't gotten any peace related accomplishments wasn't even correct. Right. I mean, you had the withdrawal from Gaza and parts of the west bank under, of all people, Ariel Sharon with the support of George W. Bush. But you've had right wing governments in Israel make peace forever. The Begin government has struck the biggest peace deal ever. Right. Netanyahu had his own handshake with Arafat over moving, you know, IDF out of Hebron. I mean, right wingers make peace, you know. But the larger point was that it was immediately reversed when Trump came into office and it worked. And so each time. Right. And then Trump came into office. Well, you know, right away focused, right?
- [28:41]
John Podhoretz
Yeah, this is a very.
- [28:42]
Christine Rosen
Right away, he focused immediately on Israel stuff because of what was going on at the UN during the, during the transition, the presidential transition, when the Obama administration allowed that, that anti Israel resolution to go through. And so he became embroiled in the Israel stuff and the question of daylight immediately.
- [29:02]
John Podhoretz
Right. So what's so important about this is that Trump not only said that, you know, he was going to try a policy of, of daylight, but also that Israel deserved, needed some tough love because it wasn't grasping its need to, as diplomats seem to say to Israel and to no other country on earth, that Israel really needs to take risks for peace. Risks for peace. Sure it was a risk, sure it's a risk to make a deal with people who created organizations, the purpose of which was to slaughter Jews, push Jews in wheelchairs into the ocean off a cruise ship, kidnap them and kill them at the Olympics. You know, all that. But you know what? You should take a risk because peace is so good. Take a risk. And the Obama administration detailed really remarkably, page by page and Michael Oren's memoir of his time as the US Ambassador to, from Israel, the Amer, the Israeli ambassador to the United States during the Obama administration. It was like there was a lot of tough and there was no love. The coldness, the chill, the, you know, when Hillary was Secretary of State and yelled at Netanyahu on the phone, when Kerry was Secretary of State and yelled at Netanyahu on the phone, and when they actually took these acts, most, most, most notably the, the jcpoa, the Iran nuclear deal, which they believed Israel should come and thank them for enshrining the fact that Iran was going to be allowed to have nuclear weapons at the close of the deal in 10 years or 12 years or however you were going to Calculate it that Israel is supposed to be thankful for this. And Trump came in and he appointed an Orthodox Jewish ambassador, his former lawyer, David Friedman. He had his son in law, Jared Kushner as a key ally, key aid some with a Zionist upbringing, also an Orthodox Jew. And basically from that moment onward, the idea was we're on Israel's side. We're not an honest broker. We're not looking to be, you know, to sort of like mediate between the parties and see what we can do is say, well, you have this grievance and you have that grievance. It was like Israel's our ally. Israel is a Western democracy in the middle of we Israel. And we have all these commonalities and we not only side with Israel, but we love Israel. That had never happened before. And the accomplishments. There were things that Trump then did, which he mentioned this morning in his speech, moving the embassy to Jerusalem, recognizing Israeli, the annexation of the Golan Heights, which Israel had done in 1981 or early 1982. So it's been more than two generations that Israel has not only claimed sovereignty over the Golan Heights, but like built an entire community of 100, 150,000 who live on the Golan Heights, who make wine on the Golan Heights, who farm the Golan Heights, who have factories on the Golan Heights, doing all that. And then what was the long term consequence? Just in the first term, it was the most innovative form of new diplomacy the world had seen in decades, which was the Abraham Accords, alliances or, you know, peace treaties or whatever you want to call the deals between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and various other countries to normalize relations between the Jewish state that, that these countries had refused to acknowledge would exist in permanence or refuse to acknowledge that it should be deemed a state among the nations and an ordinary state. Huge accomplishment frozen in place by the Biden administration. Not that it didn't want to pursue it, but see, there was this fact that Saudi Arabia had killed one guy. And yes, I'm now going to say it was terrible. What a terrible thing they did and they took him and he was in the embassy and he was living under American, you know, he was living under the sort of American umbrella because he lived in Virginia and he wrote for the Washington Post and he was also a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and a horrible anti Semite and a disgusting columnist who wrote loathsome things about Israel and the Jews. But yes, it's a terrible thing that he got. He got murdered the way he got murdered in the, you know, in. In. In at the Saudi consulate in Turkey and the entirety of American foreign policy and its goal of achieving a new kind of peace in the Middle east was upended in order to suck up to the forces in the Democratic Party on the left who, who decided that they were going to make a huge deal out of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And why did that happen? Looked at from a historical vantage point, because the people who really wanted us to have daylight with the Saudis while the Saudis were rushing toward us, right, rushing toward the west for the first time in, you know, 100 years, trying to build a city, and you're like, d, basically D, Muslim brother. Defundamentalize themselves in the person of this reckless and imprudent but still quite visionary new leader. They wanted to stop it in its tracks. The ultimate guiding purpose was to end the Abraham Accords was to end the idea that Israel should be making separate peaces outside of a peace with the Palestinians, that it shouldn't happen. And then when the Biden administration decided, you know, it would be really good, let's try to reignite these Abraham Accord things, that would be good. Like, was about a year in, in 2022, the Saudis were like, we can't trust you. You know, what kind of friends are you? Like, I don't want to. I don't want to deal with you. Let's. Let's see what happens when you. Let's see what happens in the next couple of years and how things. And how things go. So, and just.
- [36:05]
Christine Rosen
Just to add to that, I was reminded someone sent me a reminder that had. Again, we've said this many times, but it's worth repeating because we are at a historic moment. If Kamala Harris had been president, look at how she was treating Israel as vice president. She wouldn't even meet with Bibi. She was. Every time she was asked about Israel's security, she talked about the Palestinians. It was not. This never would have been possible. And the other thing that I think Trump said in his speech that I think is worth noting is the way he thanked the idf, because, as I said, you know, he's off to Egypt. The really difficult part of what happens now that the hostages are home begins, and that will require still some form of military presence along Israel's border. And his words for the idf, I thought were a vindication of what you were saying last week, John, which is that Israel has to win. And it seems to me that Trump's acknowledgment of the role of the military. There is a good sign that he understands that as well. And that's really important going forward because there are going to be a lot of clashes about the role of the IDF where, how far into Gaza it should stay, where the security zones are and whatnot. And so I was also, I think all of us should be incredibly grateful for the IDF for bringing the hostages home and obviously for so many of the families who lost loved ones who were in service.
- [37:25]
John Podhoretz
That's a. Yeah.
- [37:26]
Christine Rosen
And I thought of Abe last year when, when we did our, you know, our year end show and we did person of the year. Abe, I think the IDF sold soldiers of the men and women of the idf. Were your for that reason.
- [37:40]
John Podhoretz
Listen, the last four, the four weeks that preceded the Trump brokered Witkoff, brokered multination acceptance of the 20 point peace plan had two faces aside from Witkoff and going like one was the Israeli strike on Doha, which if you read the American press, you were talking about like cable television. Abe read the American press this weekend. So one of the many, many reasons why nobody really needs to pay attention to the American media or a lot, most media when it comes to describing this conflict, because this thing that they attempted to do, which was to say that the strike on Doha split Bibi from Trump, like then said, okay, I'm now, I'm going to, now I got, now we got to stop this now, gotta stop it now because ooh, that's bad. Strike in Doha happened at the same time that Israel had recommitted its forces to taking Gaza City, the one place in Gaza that had been left mostly unmolested in part, I think, as we're now going to find out, or the little pieces of information have already been trickling out this morning, that they knew that there were a lot of hostage, a lot of the hostages were there and that they therefore had to move gingerly because they did not want to be implicant, did not want to harm the hostages. And so for two, almost two years, they let Gaza City alone. For the most part. Israel went aggressively into Gaza City and it hit Doha. And four weeks later, the hostages are home, the war is over. Trump has said that Israel won the war. He said today that Israel won this war. And he said, you should be happy with Bibi Netanyahu. You're a very popular guy, which is not really true because you know how to win. You know how to win for the first time in our lifetimes, for the first time that I can think of since George W. Bush, George H.W. bush, in his 1992 State of the Union, said, with the grace of God, we won the Cold War. A Western leader has stood up before the world and said, a Western country has won a war. Have we. Did we say it about Iraq? No. We said, mission accomplished. Did we say it about the war on terror? No. Did we say it about. I mean, did we say it about the. Even the war against isis? No. We've never said we won. We win. This is victory. Trump's speech was a victory speech. Bibi's speech was a victory speech. We have not heard a victory speech from a Western leader in 30, more than 30 years. There's a transformative quality to this. That's why, as I say, I'm so sort of like, I'm overwhelmed. I just want to quote, like, just four or five lines from Trump's speech. Okay? He said of Bibi, he's not easy, but that's what makes him great. Right? I love Israel. I'm with you all the way. Said of what happened to Iran, didn't they take a big hit? Boy, oh, boy. And then he said, when people say to me, oh, sir, the Iranians are going to try to reconstitute their program, their. Their nuclear program, he's like, come on. The last thing they want to do is dig holes again. They're not reconstituting anything. Then he said, you know, looking. Look at the map of the Middle east, and there's this little country. It's like a dot. Look at a map, it's like Israel. It's like. It's this little dot. And think of what you've done. It's incredible. Okay? You're a very popular guy, he said to Bibi, after he asked President Herzog to pardon him. He said, you're a very popular guy. You know why? Because you know how to win Israel. And the reason that the tribute to the IDF is so important is because he said, you have won this war. Trump used this phrase by force of arms. You won this war by force of arms. It was the last push into Gaza City that broke the back of Hamas and the. And its backers.
- [42:24]
Christine Rosen
You know what we also didn't have to witness this time were the. Were the showy, propaganda style Hamas celebration handovers of the hostages. That didn't happen this time either. That's another sign that it was a much clearer win. And I was grateful mainly for the families. They did have video calls with them before they were released. That also didn't happen in the way that horrifying that one chilling.
- [42:47]
John Podhoretz
There was the last chilling moment for the hostages or for us thinking about what it means. This phone call between one of the hostages and his parents. And standing behind him, and you can see it on his mother's screen, is this entirely black robe, you know, with a black hood on. Hamas ghoul. It's like having the devil in the shot while he says, basically saying, you know, imam coming home. And there. There is this last moment when he is still in the shadow of. Of. So it looks like a demon. It looks like there is a demon standing and there was a demon. And they were in. They were in hell. They were in there. They were in a worldly version of hell. They have been released from that hell because they won, not because they negotiated. And if we. Sorry to become a ranter again, but there's this thing over the weekend where people are saying, well, couldn't we have had this deal a year ago? There was this deal. There was a deal in June of 24. There was a negotiation over it. And of course, Hamas kept rejecting the deals. And why was that the case? Because Israel hadn't won the war yet. They still had freedom of movement in various places in Gaza. They had control of the hostages, they had the support of gutter, they had the support of Iran. Things didn't look good for them. I mean, you can't say that everything was going their way. Nothing was going their way. But they kept saying no. And why? Because the sequence was wrong. Everything was flipped on its head. It was. You know what, here's the idea. We'll cease fire first, because that's maybe what would. That's the sugar cube for Hamas. And then we'll talk about maybe getting half the hostages out first. And then in a second phase, after 60 days of a ceasefire, maybe we can start talking about getting a few more out and a few more out. Right. The sequence was wrong. How much?
- [45:03]
Christine Rosen
That's the thing. Just. Just to be clear, like the claim is the way people say it is, this deal in some form has been available since. And that's, you know. Yeah, in some form. A completely different deal. Like the hostages didn't come home on day one. That's a different deal. Like. Well, some form. You know, it's like the details were different and all the timelines and everything were different, but it was a deal. Like, the only thing they too had in common was that they were both deals. This is a very different deal. And also, I don't think people even. I don't think it has settled in how much of an accomplishment it is to strike a deal with Hamas's backers, wherein Hamas handed over every single living hostage at the moment, at the dawn break of the deal. You know, in February, two hostages were released that were taken 10 years ago. They had wandered into two to Mangitu, I think his name was. There was an Ethiopian boy and a Bedouin who had wandered basically into Gaza. They were. And they were held there for a decade. So, you know, Israel went into this. You know, they didn't start the war not having any hostages in Gaza. Like having Hamas holding hostages is the default. It's like the status quo. For a decade, there have been hostages. There were just many more of them. Those hostages were released in February. All the living hostages were released today. So for the first time in that period of time, there's no living hostage in Gaza. And that came through this deal with Trump and Bibi. And I think people need to understand the magnitude. But I just. I want to clarify one thing. One thing, because, John, the reason that you are hearing all of these, well, they could have had this deal before. Why not? Why not? That is an effort to obscure the fact that there has always been a deal on the table since October 8th. Return the hostages. We won't. The war is over. There's no war like you took our people, bring them back, and we're done. And that has always. Israel has conceded, consistently, said, you return the hostages, then we. Then. Then everything stops. And they would never return the hostages, obviously. And I think that people forget that. I think, in part, Seth, because you're exactly right. That's exactly how they've operated for decades. But that. That's where I think the silence of Western media in particular, and a lot of pro. Supposedly pro Palestinian, but actually pro Hamas types in this country, their silence today is pretty deafening. A lot of them were saying, well, they'll return the hostages and Bibi will start bombing the Palestinians again. It's a genocide. They have nothing to say now because Israel held up its terms of the deal. You return the hostages, we're starting over. I'm Oliver Darcy. And I'm John Passantino. We have spent years covering the inner workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood, and power. Now through our nightly newsletter, status. And we're bringing that same reporting and sharp analysis to a new podcast, Power Lines. Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest stories shaping the industry, explaining why they matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud. No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis that isn't afraid to call it like it is.
- [48:25]
Mark Halpern
We also pull back the curtain via.
- [48:27]
Christine Rosen
Our exclusive reporting to take you behind the scenes. My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up.
- [48:46]
Mark Halpern
Oh, my God. That's Power Lines presented by Status.
- [48:51]
Christine Rosen
Follow Power Lines and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [49:00]
Mark Halpern
I'm Mark Halpern and I want to let you know that two Way Tonight, the destination for the best political news and analysis anywhere, is now available as an audio podcast. Each weekday I'll be joined by special guests from the worlds of news, politics and the media, along with members of the two Way community for conversations like no other. It's the best way to stay informed at the end of your day or first thing in the morning every weekday. It's a show like no other because we involve the community. We hear from people from around the country, around the world. They're part of a conversation. There is no other platform like this, and I hope you will find it to be not only different than everything else, but more meaningful as you become part of a special community around the program. So listen and follow two Way tonight with Mark Alperin on Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, or any other major streaming platform.
- [49:48]
John Podhoretz
I want to go back to the force of arms thing because there was this moment two months into the war. I was in Israel when it happened. Or actually a month into the war, a month into Israel's moving aggressively on Gaza when Hamas waved the white flag. They had a ceasefire deal. There was a ceasefire and 80 hostages came out over the course of a week. And there was this whole question of whether or not you would get these hostages out. And then the ceasefire might be extended as they move to a phase two, which would involve the release of more hostages and people who were not part of the consensus that said, just give us back our hostages and we'll end the war. Who said we have to extirpate Hamas completely? We've had 15 years of their depredations against us, rocket firings against us, and all of that. We cannot live with them on our borders, particularly after this. We do need to fight this war and win it. But had Hamas. Hamas again unilaterally chose to end that ceasefire that got 80 hostages out. What was key about that ceasefire? They were pummeled. They were. They had.
- [51:04]
Christine Rosen
They.
- [51:04]
John Podhoretz
There was an assault on them the likes of which they had not experienced before. They had only experienced Israel slapping down missiles and then making these kind of like boutique raids during the, really the three major incursions that Israel made into Gaza in response to, to, you know, thousands of rockets being fired. They were pummeled and they were, they were on their back. They were like in shock, and they basically waved the white flag, took a breath for a week, and then said, nah, that's it. So first indication was kick the crap out of them and they come to the table. Then that happened. They went back to the battlefield and then who started interposing themselves between Israel and the Palestinians and the advancement of the force of arms goal of killing off Hamas as a, also as a means of getting the hostages back. The Biden administration. The Biden administration started saying, you're going too far. There's too many myths. Whoa, you know, Chef Andres doesn't feel safe as he's making his, you know, ratatouille for the from World Happy Kitchen. You're not making them feel safe enough. And where, what, why, why aren't you being nicer to the UN and you, you know, we're gonna withhold some weaponry from you. And BB Having figured out that the last thing he could do was agree to daylight to be a participant in creating the daylight between him and the United States. They were running in the other direction and he was like the, you know, the guy in a, in a, in a caper movie who handcuffs himself to the other guy to make sure he couldn't run away from him. That was what Bibi was doing with the Biden administration, which effect effectively lengthened the war by a year or more by restraining Israel when the thing that we have now learned without question is let Israel loose and the war will be over. I don't think it would have been that quick because you really did have to have the Hezbollah operation and then the taking out of the Iranian nuclear program to mean that whatever other fronts might fight and come into the war were, were incapacitated. The exception of the Houthis, who are too far away to make a measurable difference. But nonetheless, they, they, they made it longer by their discomfort with martial solutions to an actual attack on a country, a sovereign country, by this pseudo sovereign terrorist run brigand nation called Gaza and all of that. I mean, the lesson for future conflict, Trump seems to be learning because as you said, Christine, suddenly he's musing about giving Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine. And this started four, five, six weeks ago. He Started saying, you know what? I don't trust Putin. Yeah. I gave him all these chances. And he's like, yeah, he's not doing the right thing. And he's looking and saying, I just had this huge success.
- [54:43]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah.
- [54:44]
Christine Rosen
Nothing.
- [54:45]
John Podhoretz
An inventive and clever ally that does interesting things that are new. Maybe I've backed the wrong horse here. Maybe that negotiated peace isn't gonna work with Putin. We need to bring him to the table through force of arms. And I really enjoyed participating in the Iran strike. That was the other thing about this speech. He was like, that was so much fun. And there's Raisin Cain there. They said to me, sir, we've done these drills on Iran three times a year. But they were all too chicken to do anything about it. I'm like, you know what? Fly 37 hours. We have all these tankers in the sky. We'll re. You know, we'll refuel all of our guys. They'll go 37 hours. They'll bomb, they'll come back. It was great. It was fantastic. They were home for breakfast, happy. Like a happy experience, doing something righteous, which was taking an evil regime and removing its ability to project its power with the world's worst weaponry, you know, beyond its borders. And now that's a lesson. That's why deterrence works. That's why this is.
- [55:59]
Christine Rosen
And it countered for. For Trump and his. His administration, it countered a very important complaint that had been made by people on the other side of the issue, which was that if you do this, Israel is dragging us into a war. And it was proved to be false. Trump is happy in part because he trusted his gut right on this. The military said, we can do it. We can do the mission. We can succeed, you know, and so he said, go ahead and do it. But it was also a rebuke to the idea that Trump, you know, Trump shouldn't be thinking about this sort of thing. Trump's being manipulated and, you know, he's getting tricked into showing American power and all this other stuff. All of that disintegrated in a moment. And it was no. And it's no longer an argument that holds any sway over Trump. Yes, it's an argument within the Republican Party that's going to go on. But Trump is. This. This argument was settled for Trump. He cannot be pulled in that direction anymore by saying, they're just trying to pull you into a war. Because he knows he ordered the bombers, Right? And then he said during the 12 day war, he decided 12 day war is over. Israel turn those bombers around, right? Turn those planes around. And Israel turned planes around and sent them back. And Trump was like, this idea that I'm being manipulated is ludicrous. I'm literally, I'm literally pulling planes out of the air. I say it and they do it 6,000 miles away. It's amazing. So that was a key thing also for Trump, which was it gave him this sense of control.
- [57:31]
John Podhoretz
This is a very the other thing is because you're talking about a struggle that we know is going on inside the administration and inside the Republican Party and inside the question of the future of the Republican Party, both domestically and in terms of foreign policy. And that's why it was also very pregnant and very meaningful this morning that he spent a minute giving a shout out to Marco Rubio, whom he said will go down in history as the greatest secretary of state of all time. Why is that important? This week, we are closing our November issue, which is, by the way, the 80th marks the 80th anniversary of Commentary's existence. And we have a piece in that issue by Mayor Soloveitchik, who is our monthly Jewish Commentary columnist, the rabbi of Ashereth, Israel here in New York City, the head of the Strauss center at Yeshiva University, sort of the foremost, I don't know what you call him, the foremost Orthodox American intellectual of our time. And he his piece is about a speech that Rubio gave in September, if you remember, marking the opening of the Pilgrim's Path. The this incredible Seth wrote about this very well, incredible excavation that occurred just outside 800 yards from the Western Wall or the Wailing Wall, when they were excavating to the city of the Temple of David or the City of David in East Jerusalem. And they, they stumbled across this tile and realized that they had found this path. That was the path that the pilgrims who came to do sacrifices at the temple would have to walk to get onto the temple grounds. And on the course, on the on their way there, they would have to go through these pools to purify themselves, because the temple was a place of purity. And you could not enter the temple grounds without having gone through a ritualized, a purification. And so this is one of these, you know, landmark findings in the history of archaeology and particularly in the history of the Middle east, and the proof of the eternal existence, the near eternal existence of Jews in the Holy Land. And Rubio was there for the opening, for the sort of official opening of the Pilgrim's Walk. And sully Mayor Soloveitch had described the speech that he gave there as one of the most important in American history, one of the most meaningful speeches in recent memory, the pilgrimage road in which he likened Israel to the United States. And the continuity between Israel as a land founded on an idea or idea is a very limited way to describe a mandate, a sort of mandate from the Almighty. But, but the United States was founded, as Ruby said, on the very powerful principle that the rights of mankind come from their Creator. And he said this, the Secretary of State of the United States, quote, to stand here today on the very road where not 2000 years ago so many from everywhere ventured to fulfill that desire to be closer to the Creator is a humbling and honoring experience. As you go through the layers of history, you realize that all of the civilizations that conquered this city, all the ones who tore it down and built on top, are all gone. The Roman Empire is no more, nor any of the others that sought to conquer and rule this land. But one people remain. They have returned. For God's promise is eternal and it is perfect. And his word is always true. And I'm honored to be part of its fulfillment. Here with you tonight. The Secretary of State of the United States endorsed an essentially religious idea about the continuity of Israel as a God given right. He is not a Jew. Right. He is a Catholic, but he believes that the Testaments are, you know, he believes in the two Testaments and their essential connection and then the truth and the God given nature of what, of what Christians call the Old Testament. And such a thing has never happened before. It's the most Zionist thing that has ever been said by any American politician, any American executive branch official ever. I think we should. So yeah, in a fight inside the administration has been in a fight with the Vice President's office. So yeah, yeah.
- [62:52]
Abe Greenwald
The entirety of this is a win for the pro Israel camp within the administration as opposed to the Israel weary arm's length, you know, the Vances and whomever else. They'll say some positive things about Israel, but very cautious about taking any steps to actually do anything to show legitimate, concrete support for Israel. And this, you see the payoff in having done that here is, is enormous. So they have won. That's another. I mean it's a much smaller win than, than, than Israel and America. But they want it.
- [63:41]
John Podhoretz
You can say it's a smaller win and sully would tell you that it's a bigger win. That is to say that an acknowledgment by the lead diplomat of the United States that there might be a transcendent purpose to Israel's existence That surpasseth understanding. And it's not simply a matter of negotiating treaties and being even handed when dealing with, you know, countries that have a lot of oil and that sort of thing. I mean, the State Department was the locus of anti Israel sentiment in the United States government for going on, what is it, 78 years now? I mean, it is 77 years. It was, it was George Marshall, Truman.
- [64:30]
Christine Rosen
Versus the striped pants boys.
- [64:31]
John Podhoretz
Right, the striped pants boys. George Marshall, the Secretary of State under Truman, was deeply hostile to the idea of recognizing Israel's creation. And we go through, you know, secretary after secretary after secretary after secretary, including, I mean, there are secretaries who learned, who decided after having been betrayed or screwed by the Arabs, most notably George Shultz, who was the Secretary of State under, under, under Reagan, that, you know, Israel, Israel could be trusted and the Arabs could not be, and Jordan could not be, and the PLO was evil in killing Americans. And maybe we should make sure that we didn't try to make some kind of a parallelism between the Jews having their own state and the Palestinians having their own state, when the Palestinian state was going to be a focus of anti American and anti Israel terror. Nonetheless, then that speech would not have been given without Israel fighting. In other words, like that recognition of Israel's transcendence is in part the fact that Israel took a look at the, at where it was on October 7th after, after years of what now appears to be willful blindness or refusal to accept the kind of struggle that it was actually in, however you want to look at it, and said, we, if we are not for ourselves, who will be for us? If not now, you know, if not now, when we have to go and fight for our very existence and establish that we are here to stay. And just as Trump said about Iran getting hit, boy, did Israel ever do that. It did it in Lebanon. It did it in. What happened in Lebanon then had this knockoff effect on ending the evil barbaric regime in Syria. And then they did it. They and the United States did it to Iran and then did it to Hamas. And that is an enunciation of a kind that is world altering, not just for Israel, but what lessons it teaches about how power can be used in a righteous fashion to establish new ways of thinking about the world.
- [66:55]
Christine Rosen
It's also going to shift the game board for the nationalist right and the non nationalist right and the future of the right in general once Trump is gone. Because Trump has made a pretty clear statement about, I mean, he's not stopped talking about America first, but America with its allies first, whether that's striking Iran, whether that's backing Israel and all of these ways. And his vice president speaks about a different sort of America first and is. Has that distance. And you know who's really angry today? People like Steve, Steve Bannon, who. Who were kind of much more influential in the first term, but have disappeared in the second one. So that, that battle, what is America First? Is it the kind of isolationist nationalist Vance led? Right. Or is it the Marco Rubio, Donald Trump a strong presence in the world and on the globe global stage? America First. That battle is intriguing to me because I think there are interesting partizans on both sides of that question. And they're all jockeying for power come 2028. And there were American hostages whose body Trump was like, America first means Americans First. There are Americans being kept in Hamas dungeons and I'm going to go get them. That was Trump's. He said the same thing about Americans kept in Venezuela. He said the same thing about Americans kept in Russia. This, this was a focal point of this administration's, you know, still, you know, fairly young, ish second term. But this was a. This has been a focal point of this term is not just an issue, but Americans bring them home where they're in trouble. Bring them home and get them out of trouble. Because to be an American has to mean something. We're the superpower. And to have that, you know, that citizenship, that connection, it has to mean something. You should walk around with your head held high as an American and, you know, and we'll show that. So to me, the America first in probably has made a lot of sense for that.
- [68:48]
John Podhoretz
Yeah. And travel the earth unmolested.
- [68:51]
Christine Rosen
Yeah.
- [68:52]
John Podhoretz
That's the other central point about this, which is. And, you know, just got this researcher, this American, Israeli researcher, Elizabeth Zerkoff, sprung from Iran. What's the point here? The point is you don't kidnap Americans and take them. You don't do that, do that, and you have no idea what I'm gonna do to you. That's the crazy cowboy aspect of Trump's method to try.
- [69:23]
Christine Rosen
And the North Korean, the American in North Korea in his first term, whose family he brought to the State of the Union. We should also say that he was very proud in that moment to say, whatever you say about my willingness to make deals with North Korea, Russia, blah, blah, blah, whatever, I'm going to bring these guys home.
- [69:42]
John Podhoretz
Deterrence requires a believable and executable threat of violence. There is no deterrence without the idea that you're making a mistake to, to alter the status quo relationship where you are not at armed conflict or you have not taken measures against the United States or whoever is going to be the deterrent. What Israel has done in the last two years has established a kind of deterrence that I didn't ever think was possible in the Middle east against it. I mean, there have been, you know, over the course, my father used to say that the wars, the Israel's wars, had an interesting effect on its neighbors. Right? 22 countries were opposed to Israel's existence in 1948 and all declared war on it. Israel achieves parity. There's an Armistice in 1949 and almost every one of the belligerents in that war that were not on their borders, that was the end of their role as an active military force against Israel, meaning the entire Persian Gulf and various other places. So that, so the number of enemies went down from 22 from that war, from 22 to 8 or something like that. Then in 67, Israel wins this war, knocks Jordan out. Jordan is no longer a belligerent against Israel. In 1973, very difficult war, almost lost. Israel knocks out Syria and, and fundamentally knocks out Egypt, which is. Neither of them become an active belligerent. Who is going to launch war, conventional war, from a territory. 1982 knocked out the PLO as a, as a, as an occupying force in southern Lebanon, which was staging conventional attacks on Israel and terrorist attacks on Israel. Here we have Israel 43 years later, having knocked out Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, Gaza, Hamas, and, and if you're one of those 2,000 prisoners getting out of jail today, right, you're one of the 2,000 Palestinians getting out of jail. Do you really, do you look at the beeper exercise or do you look at the strike inside Tehran, or do you look at the fact that they hit Doha, knowing where all those people were? Do you think you have freedom of movement for the rest of your life? You think they don't know where you are? You think they have it? You think they haven't figured out a way to keep tabs on you? I don't know what those tabs are. I don't know how it works. I do know that in, in the New York City subway system, there is a giant map in the control room which used, I think it's still there, but was in Grand Central Station. Giant map that shows where all the subways are at any given moment. Huge city map. You know, there are 200 different subway line, you know, cars, subway trains in motion at Any given moment shows you where they are at every given point. You think that the people who are out of that prison don't think that there is such a map at King Saul Boulevard. The where the, where the Israeli sort of like intelligence services are.
- [73:35]
Christine Rosen
But also, even if there isn't military, even if there isn't such a map, they certainly believe there is.
- [73:43]
John Podhoretz
Right? In other words, you don't. That's how deterrence works. Deterrence is f fafo. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fafo because I have no assurance that I'm not getting it if I poke my head up. That's what has happened here, not just with countries, but with the terrorist dangers that are posed to Israel, including on the west bank, by the way, just to. We're going along, but I want to make one point. You're going to hear this in the next couple of days. There is a man who is still in Israeli jail. His name is Marwan Barghouti. Hamas asked that he be released as part of the prison release. Israel said no. You are going to hear from American liberals and some very foolish American Jews, some very foolish American Jews that this is bad. They should let Barghouti go because he's the most popular Palestinian according to Poland Barghouti, and that therefore Israel is keeping the interlocutor. That could help lead to a real lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Because according to propaganda lines, Barghouti accepts the two state solution. Barghouti is a terrorist who planned an assault on Israelis on the west bank that either killed 26 or five people, depending on, I mean, he was actually convicted of the murder of five people. Some people say that the attack was part of a longer range attack that killed 20, 26 people. Because his line is, I accept Israel within the 1967 borders, but Jews anywhere else are fair game. I'll mow them down and eat their livers and I don't care. And I don't respect, you know, he wouldn't testify on his own behalf at his trial. And every single Israeli political official out of the outside the neo communist left has said that based on what they know about him and what he actually thinks and believes, he can never be freed. He is too dangerous. And that the dodge of the 67 border acceptance is a dodge because he fully accepts the idea that murdering, murdering Jews. And how many, how many Jews live outside the Green line, outside the 67 borders now? Is it 350,000? I don't even, I can't. I Don't even know how many, how many there are exactly. Because you would also then consider the Golan Heights as part of that and others and the ring anyway.
- [76:40]
Christine Rosen
It's also a movable line. Like, you know, as long as, as long as you say, as long as you say or occupiers are fair game, they'll move that line to wherever they need it. By the way, the great Marwan Barghouti story, of course, is that in 2017, he was leading a hunger strike of Palestinians in Israeli jails and the Israelis had cameras and they were negotiate, you know, they talked to Barghouti because he's a leader of, you know, the Palestinians certainly in prison and whatever, and, and they had been feeding him and the cameras caught him eating a candy bar and another time eating a couple of cookies during the hunger strike. And Israel released this video. So the great, the great Marwan Barghouti story is that he is a fraud to you, to me, to everybody, to every side who thinks he's on their side.
- [77:36]
John Podhoretz
Right.
- [77:36]
Christine Rosen
He's just a big fraud.
- [77:38]
John Podhoretz
I heard.
- [77:40]
Christine Rosen
But they did, you know, some of the 2,000 do. I mean, there's a guy who did, who organized and carried out a suicide bombing in Jerusalem that killed lots of Israelis. I mean, they are releasing terrible, horrible terrorists. And the response, I just want to say the contrast between watching the Israelis receive home their civilians who have been held hostage underground for two more than two years and the I'm sure we can predict celebration of murderers that will occur among the Palestinian people when those prisoners go back home. That's the part that is a civilizational contrast that should always be amplified because that's two different ways of thinking about human life and the future of your territory and the safety and security of your people. They will celebrate those murderers.
- [78:30]
Abe Greenwald
And the argument, the argument that Barghouti is the most popular Palestinian Palestinian says everything about the problem like that, that, that's a very bad argument, right?
- [78:45]
John Podhoretz
It is. But like, let's just say for the sake of argument that yeah, he genuinely was somebody who believed in a two state solution or did accept Israel's existence and did want to negotiate and was a possible future leader after the 247-year-old dialysis kidney patient Mahmoud Abbas, who was somehow getting himself to Sharm El Sheikh in a, in an iron lung or whatever to, to, you know, sit there and do whatever it is that he's going to do to pretend that he's the leader of his people, the head of the Palestinian Authority, say he was the future. And he had done these terrible things. Would you let him out of jail? Sure. Sure you would. Of course you would. Like. That's. That's not. This is like the thing I was saying about, about. About Jamal Khashogga. You can't let a single person govern your foreign policy, and you can't let the monstrous act of a single person 21 years ago not be something you can negotiate over. If he has a genuine change of heart and really is like Sadat and really wants to alter the facts of world history on the ground, none of that is true. That is not true of him. If it were true of him, maybe that would be something that could happen. It's like the 20 point plan of Trump, which is. 20 point plan will be great and fully executable when the Palestinians undergo an emotional and psychic revolution in their own heads and in their own polity that accepts that the purpose of life is not to kill Jews and destroy. Destroy the Jewish state, but to make a life and future and country and land of their own where they can live and prosper. And if that happens, peace can be made in, you know, 96 hours.
- [80:39]
Christine Rosen
Do you know who's killing Palestinians today? Hamas. It's going around Gaza and murdering its own people. And do you know who doesn't want to talk about that at all? Anyone in the Western media. It's very difficult to find those stories covered at all. Those. That's. Who's murdering Palestinians today. Not the idf, not Bibi Netanyahu, Hamas.
- [81:00]
John Podhoretz
And it's important to draw this parallel. So Hamas is going around killing off potential rivals to its, you know, to rise up, to say, you ruined us. You destroyed us. Go away. Go. Go into exile. We're gonna hunt you down. Right? It's like killing them. It's like. It's, you know, Michael Corleone is killing everybody off in order to make sure they don't come. Come after him. Okay. In 1991, when we won and we won the Gulf War, peace was negotiated. Some kind of terms of surrender or whatever were negotiated with Saddam Hussein. And at the time, there was an uprising both in the north and in the south from Kurds and from suffering Iraqis who had been his vassals to front revolt against the Ba' Athist regime. And we don't know what would happen there. But in the course of this negotiation, the very foolish General Norman Schwarzkopf asked by Saddam for convenience in terms of managing obviously, a country in desperate straits, if he could maintain his helicopter fleet so that his people could travel around and, you know, help reconstitute the government. And Schwarzkopf went, sure, okay, you know, look, we, we kicked the tar out of you, you know, I'm not afraid of you. Don't worry, you know, okay, you can have it. And those helicopter ships killed 25, 30,000 Iraqis took them out, ended the revolt, and 12 years later we were back in Iraq at war. So think about that in terms of what Hamas is doing today. If Israel isn't going to intercede in what's going on between Hamas and the other and the Palestinians in Gaza, it is not there to police intra Palestinian relationships. That is there to protect Israel from Gaza. But it'll be interesting to see whether. Yes. Does the world rear in horror and say, you know, Hamas, look what Hamas did, and now it's trying to slaughter its opposition while it has a chance or its potential opposition. Yeah, you're not hearing, you're not hearing well, are they?
- [83:34]
Christine Rosen
And they even more so, they call them Israeli backed. You'll see that too in the, you know, like as if, as if the dog Mush clan in Gaza is a creation of Israel. You know, this is the other thing that they, they assume that people just, and they assume correctly that people don't, you know, this is complicated stuff. This is history, whatever. But yeah, they'll call them Israeli backed because they're not Hamas and therefore Israel would prefer that. Yeah, but you're really just seeing Gaza go back to this sort of clan war, you know, situation which is, you know, vying for control and that's what they know and the families going after each other. And you know, and in the Western press, you see a lot of suggestions that perhaps Israel is involved, as if this, you know, this state of being of the Palestinians in Gaza has anything to do with, with, you know, and the family wars and the clan wars has anything to do with, with Israel. But they'll always find a way to.
- [84:32]
John Podhoretz
Right.
- [84:33]
Christine Rosen
Blame them. I, I just want to add, Can I just say one thing? I know because we're running long, but I, I, I do want to say that something else about last night was that the whole nation of Israel, well, along with Jews all over the world, I mean, I was up, you know, waiting for that 1:00am or 1:30am whenever the first, you know, drop was of hostages, stayed up and waited to see the hostages returned. I don't know, I can't think of a, of an accident analog to this. I can't think of a parallel, an entire country waiting for a few people to come home the whole country was up. They waited in Hostage Square. They waited at the site of the Nova festival where they did prayer services. They waited here, they waited there. Everybody. They did watch parties. The former hostages did watch parties. That people did watch parties, you know, in. In a couple of them were in India and they had the screens turned on where they were in India and here and there. I mean, to see the entire nation and, you know, and really the, you know, the Omni Israel, the people of Israel, that was something incredibly special. And it tells you, I think, something about why the Jews have been the eternal people. Why, you know, as John mentioned before in about Martin talking about Marco Rubio's speech and all of these ancient peoples, you know, only the Jews are left of all these ancient peoples. And, you know, to be part of a society of. To be part of a people that literally, till the last man won't go to sleep, until everyone is home, is something very special. You really don't see it. And I think that, that, that is, you know, I'm proud for my kids to see the videos and stuff of that too, because I want them, you know, I'm always trying to find ways to convey to my kids, you know, they see there's a lot of anti Semitism. Right. And I try to counter with, you know, well, we always survive it. We're the eternal people. Everybody else is gone. We're still here. What does that mean? I want them to be able to see that, you know, they have this, like, these lights will be on for them all over the world for the entirety of their life on earth.
- [87:01]
John Podhoretz
That was beautifully said. And we will not have a show tomorrow as it is. It is as it is. The. The eve of. But we will have one on. On Wednesday because we can't stay silent during this week. But thank you for that, Seth, and thank you to Christine and Ahab. And I'm John Podhoritz.
- [87:29]
Mark Halpern
Keep the candle burning.