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- [00:01]
A
So I'm shopping online and I want to buy something and I get to the checkout point and my wallet's nowhere near me. And I'm getting old, so I can't remember my credit card number. And I certainly can't remember those other two numbers you have to enter along with your credit card number. What am I going to do? It's so frustrating. And then I see it. I see that purple pay button that has all of my information saved and it makes checking out as simple as a simple tap of your screen. I'm talking about Shopify. Shopify is the e commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. So whatever you're doing, whatever you need when you're buying stuff, this is what you get from Shopify. A simple one stop shop to get your payment done. And for the people who use it as a business product provides analytics, all the kinds of things you need to know to do e commerce well. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay buttons. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com commentary. Go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary. Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Tuesday, April 7, 2026. I am John Pod Horowitz, the editor of Commentary magazine. I should note please that if you would be find this of interest, go to YouTube, look up commentary magazine podcast and you can watch us on YouTube like and subscribe to the podcast on YouTube and it helps expose us in this world of the algorithm. Help people see it, help people watch us, help people wonder why it is that I am now wearing a tie which if you're watching, you know that I'm doing. I've now started wearing ties instead of sweaters. And you will be able to see our guest today, Eli Lake, wearing a People's Front of Judea T shirt which he is now showing to the YouTube audience. And now I will now introduce the panel. We have a lot to get through here. We have of course, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
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B
Hi, John.
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A
Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
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C
Hi, John.
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A
That's because I'm talking about YouTube. Your collar very wrinkled. I expect a better collar in future YouTube episodes. Like you need to do a little ironing or something. Looking very, very well put together. Our social Commentary columnist, Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.
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D
Hi, John. And as our listeners know, I'm ambivalent about the whole video thing. So if we're going to be look shaming and looks maxing. We should give our substitute subscribers something for it.
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E
So.
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A
Well, you're ambivalent about the entire 20th and 21st century, so this is true.
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D
This is a good point.
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A
And of course, Washington Free Beacon editor and also impeccably attired, Eliana Johnson. Hi, Eliana.
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F
Hi, John. Yes, Christina and I have talked about the inequities of being on video because you know, the women we gotta like put ourselves together for this.
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D
Harshly.
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A
Apparently, apparently Seth Mandel does not feel the need to put himself together for this.
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C
Welcome. Welcome to the patriarchy.
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A
Fair enough.
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E
Naomi Wolf was right.
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A
There you go. Man has six children. If he's not a patriarch, I don't know who is.
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F
You know what, John, though? It occurred to me since you aren't since you switched to a tie, I should wear my quince sweater.
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A
There you go.
- [04:18]
F
And then I'll bring it because I'm a huge fan.
- [04:21]
A
Well, now that, now that I've said that I'm wearing ties, maybe a tie company will start advertising with us and send me some new ties. Though I have of course more ties than I know. It's now that no one ever wears ties. I of course have a lifetime of piled up ties from workplaces that are sitting in my closet of various widths, lengths, colors, tastes. I probably don't need any more of them, but you know, I'm always willing anyway.
- [04:49]
D
Guess that decade tie contest, like the really wide 70s.
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A
The really wide. Yeah, the 60s.
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E
Right.
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A
The kind of Oliver Hardy tie versus the, you know, Chris Isaac narrow tie. Okay, we are basically just temporizing here because we of course don't know what's gonna happen today. It does appear that major strikes across Iran from Kharga island to train tracks to bridges have been taking place overnight and that more may be coming. And we have this very, I'm sorry to laugh cause I know it's not a laughing matter, but we have this very crazy tweet by Trump like liter. As I said yesterday, you never know when he's gonna go crazier. And he outdid himself even in the last 24 hours with a tweet, basically saying that Iranian civilization, which is in fact one of the oldest civilizations on earth, will die tonight, is going to die tonight and that's gonna be it. I suppose I should read the tweet itself or maybe somebody else can.
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F
I can. He said, yes, a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. He added that he hoped, quote, maybe something revolutionary wonderful can happen. To avoid American attacks, We will find out tonight one of the most important moments in the long and complex history of the world.
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A
Look, I've spent decades arguing that ideas matter, and I. I really believe that sleep does too. I suffer from sleep apnea, and dealing with my sleep apnea has been one of the signal issues of my life. If you or someone you love suffers from mild sleep apnea or snoring, there's an FDA approved daytime therapy called Exciteosa available through Goodnightrx. And you need to hear about this. No masks, no equipment strapped to your face while you sleep. Just 20 minutes a day, strengthening the muscles that keep your airway open. And in clinical studies, it cut apnea events nearly in half. Think of it as a workout for your tongue. Go to goodnightrx.com and use code pod at checkout for 25% off. That's goodnightrx.com code pod sleep better so you can argue better. Okay, now here's what's interesting to me, because last night I had on for my sins, I had on CNN's Abby Phillip tonight, which for me is like basically having root canal without anesthetic. But I did have it on and then she had to cut away. It's fine, actually. It's not that bad. Lydia Moynihan was on. And Ken, you know, Scott. It was Ken Jennings. Scott Jennings was on, so it wasn't so terrible. But. But it is an egregious show. Anyway. And then they had to cut into Trump talking to the Artemis to.
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F
Hope you're listening. Bari Weiss.
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A
And the. He was so jaunty. He was so cheerful. He was so upbeat and happy and happy to be talking to that. So happy that he said all kinds of nice things about Canada. Trump said nice things about Canada because one of the astronauts is Canadian. He talked about how proud Canada was of him and how he talked to both Mark Carney and Wayne Gretzky and they were both so proud of the Canadian astronaut. The Canadian astronaut said, thank you, Mr. President, America's really the leader in space travel. And he was so cheerful and upbeat that reading this tweet, performatively, it does sound to me like nothing so much. And here's a sort of weird cultural reference to make as the scene in Iron Man 3 where Ben Kingsley is playing the global terrorist, the Mandarin, and makes this unbelievably scary threat to the whole world and everything like that. But it turns out that he's this unemployed actor. Ben Kingsley's character is not the Mandarin. There is no Mandarin. He's an unemployed actor who has been hired by some conspiracy to try to scare everybody. And that's what this tweet reads like to me. It's having the desired effect because I look on Twitter and basically I see people like going out of their minds, out of their minds with rage and worry and fear. And the 25th Amendment needs to be invoked today and how can this happen and Congress needs to intervene and all of that. And he was just so, so, so happy last night that I can't imagine that he sat down writing this without kind of like a giggly smile on his face. Cuz it is a bluff. But Christine, I wanna turn to you first because I'm sure that you deeply disapprove of this tweet. Let me just say.
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D
Well, I think it's just, I don't like to see at a time of serious brinksmanship in a global crisis, I don't like seeing our president act like a troll. Even if it is a bluff, I don't like it. And lots of people think it's great and I understand that they think Trump is a genius for presenting himself in this way. But underneath that tweet is a lot of anxiety among a lot of people in this country about what might happen. I mean, he set this deadline for 8pm tonight. He's been increasing his rhetoric. These attacks are now going on, as you noted, while we're recording this. And I think, like a lot of people, I hope there's a plan here. I hope it's being executed. I know it's being executed. Well, by our military, who I have a lot of confidence in. And I don't think it's all that fun to see the leader of the free world right now acting like a troll. So no, it's not approval or disapproval, it's just. Yeah, I'd rather see a little more gravitas at a moment where he' swe have a serious military campaign going on. And I actually don't like him threatening to destroy a really rich and diverse and extraordinary civilization like that of the Persians. So I don't. Again, I guess he's talking about the regime, but I'm sure Eli has a different take. But I'm.
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A
No, no, no, I want to go to Abe. I want to go to Abe first because Abe, I would say, is the Trump has no gravitas and I'm here for it. Personally.
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D
I know Abe and I always talk about this.
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A
He's always telling me to point it out. Can you put this in some context before, Before Eli's wise words.
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B
I'm usually here for it. I have to say, I didn't like this even I can take some offense here. Offense isn't the right word. I think it's silly. Obviously, he's not intending to destroy Persian civilization.
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A
In fact, I don't know, it's the kind of laugh.
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B
No, I know, but it's actually the kind of thing that impotent leaders say in other parts of the world. It's the kind of larger than reality threats that they make when they have no power. I'm not implying that Trump made this because the US Is currently impotent. Militarily, we're not. I don't know what on earth is actually going to happen. I have some suspicions, but I didn't like it. It's too ugly, period.
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E
Eli, I think what we have to understand is Trump is playing five dimensional Hungry Hungry Hippos.
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A
Wait, Eli, did I introduce you? I don't think I actually introduced you first.
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F
You did,
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C
but he didn't say hi, John.
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A
Okay. But he didn't say, hi, John. Eli Lake.
- [12:56]
C
I may have a wrinkled collar, but Eli never said hi.
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E
Okay, well, that's my fault.
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A
Your wrinkly color is your own fault. I have to, Eli, like contributing editor, commentary, host of the Breaking History podcast, columnist at the Free Press. Hi, Eli.
- [13:13]
E
Hi, John. Okay. And also I have to do this because my editor, Manet, formerly of the Wall Street Journal, wanted. I told him I was going on and he said, please tell John Podariz I love him.
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A
Oh, thank you, Mane.
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E
Okay.
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A
Thank you very much. And he probably likes the tie, too, if he watches on YouTube, like, and subscribe.
- [13:32]
E
Okay, okay. All right. But here's the problem. Here's the bottom line. The people who attempted to destroy Iranian civilization is the Islamic Republic of Iran in Khomeini. In fact, he deliberately said, in the revolution, I am ending 2,500 years of kings. There was an effort to basically turn Iran into something it had never really been. There had always been a strong Shia tradition, at least, you know, for several centuries. And there. And Iran predates Islam. But there was always. It was. It was a very Persian thing. And that's why the regime, for example, has in the past tried to ban the celebration of pre Islamic holidays in Iran. It's one of the reasons as to why it has, you know, so debased the 1905 Constitution in such a way that parliament is meaningless because they've created this concept of the Guardian Council that nothing can violate or contradict Islamic law. All of that internal to Iran, the people that he wants to see this revolution, and he was promising at one point to liberate. That's their narrative. Their narrative is that when the regime falls, we are restoring Iranian civilization. So this is why it's important when really powerful. You know, our presidents, their words are important and they have enormous meaning when we're in the middle of a war like this. So I think it was counterproductive. I also think it's recoverable because I think, you know, at the end of the day, the amount of cruelty that has been done to most Iranians and misery that has been imposed on them by the regime will significantly outweigh the intemperate and stupid tweets of our president. But nonetheless, it was a dumb move. He should have done that. And in general, the kind of strategy, the idea that he's going to hit the power plants, and particularly I want to distinguish between power plants and bridges for this power plants, that is going to cause enormous harm to regular Iranians, and it's going to be survivable by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps and the regime elites. It's a stupid idea to think that that is a source of leverage, and he should not do it, and I really hope he doesn't. Now, getting rid of bridges certainly has tactical military reasons for that. I could justify that for any number of ways. So they can't resupply and hit Iran's many neighbors as they just did with Israel, that's fine. There's a military purpose there and they can rebuild. Also, there's an argument that hitting railroads and bridges and so forth makes it much more difficult for the regime itself to bring in these mercenaries from Iraq and Afghanistan that they have been bringing in to anticipate suppressing the next time there are demonstrations. So that also, I understand there's a logic to that, but framing this as we're going to just really kill a lot of people and make sure hospitals don't work and everybody's in darkness, that's playing into the regime's hand. The only battlefield right now that Iran's leaders have a chance to win on is the battle of Western public opinion, the narrative battle, every other, even, you know, nothing else. They have nothing. The one area where they might have a chance is persuading the American voters, American elites, European, Western elites, the global opinion in such a way that in a war that is righteous and just that we are the bad guys. And how do you become the bad guys by saying you're going to destroy an ancient civilization and threatening to bomb power plants. So whatever he's got in his head that this is some sort of, you know, brilliant strategic move or tactical move, it's not, and he should cut it out.
- [17:35]
A
It's interesting. My kids, something's going on with their sheets. Go to their beds. They're like half off. They roll around at night. Sheets are slipping off the corners. Also, pillows kind of look mushy and crappy and old. This is one of these things. I'm told most people actually keep their bedding way longer than they should. It wears down. You don't realize how much it's affecting your sleep and making your bed look ugly until you finally make the decision to replace it. And most people think they need a new mattress. But the biggest difference usually comes just from replacing what touches you every night. That's why you should upgrade your bed with bowl and branch. They make everything your bed needs signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, and comforters, all designed to be breathable. Incredibly soft. Get better over time. Most people start with the signature sheets, and a lot of customers buy two sets so they can rotate them. They've also added the waffle blanket. And now the whole bed just feels amazing. So upgrade your sleep with bowl and Branch. Get 15% off your first order, plus free shipping at bowlandbranch.com commentary with code COMMENTARY. That's Boland Branch. B O L L A N-D branch.com commentary code COMMENTARY to unlock 15% off exclusions apply. It's interesting. My kids, something's going on with their sheets. Go to their beds. They're like half off. They roll around at night. Sheets are slipping off the corners. Also, pillows kind of look mushy and crappy and old. This is one of these things. I'm told most people actually keep their bedding way longer than they should. It wears down. You don't realize how much it's affecting your sleep and making your bed look ugly until you finally make the decision to replace it. And most people think they need a new mattress. But the biggest difference usually comes just from replacing what touches you every night. That's why you should upgrade. Upgrade your bed with bowl and branch. They make everything your bed needs. Signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, and comforters, all designed to be breathable. Incredibly soft. Get better over time. Most people start with the signature sheets, and a lot of customers buy two sets so they can rotate them. They've also added the waffle blanket. And now the whole bed just feels amazing. So upgrade your sleep with bowl and Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bolandbranch.com commentary with code COMMENTARY that's Boland Branch B O L L A N D branch.com commentary code commentary to unlock 15% off exclusions apply.
- [20:27]
B
I said I had a suspicion and here's my suspicion and it's not based on anything but my sitting here thinking about things. Trump says he's going to bomb every power plant in Iran. What I suspect is that the US and Israel have very good intelligence on those power plants and other infrastructure that are dual use under which the regiment has built facilities just like Hamas does. And if there is, if there, if he makes good on this ultimatum, Trump, he will not bomb power plants willy nilly across Iran. It will be more surgical than that. They will take out targets that are, in my view, legitimate if they are mostly regime related, powering the regime, sources of regime funding and the rest of it. That's my suspicion. We'll see.
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C
The problem with that is that he's threatening the end of civilization and bombing all the power plants. So we already know what the coverage will be. There will be no, you know, it would be almost impossible for them to get in the coverage. The fact that something was a dual use site because he's already said like I'm not going after dual use sites, I'm just bombing them back to the Stone Ages, you know, and that sort of thing. So I don't know, maybe he's just given up on the media reporting and said they wouldn't say it anyway or whatever, but he sort of handicapped himself, I think, in that sense.
- [22:19]
D
Well, I will also say he gets a huge, I just say gets a huge pass on his emotional incontinence as a leader. Something that I think having been a huge fan of Margaret Thatcher, a woman would not be getting away with. His emotionalism in these social media posts to me is quite, has increased quite a bit since, since the conflict broke out.
- [22:40]
A
I mean, I want Eliana to talk about, I just want to say I don't think he gets a pass. Like the guy has very low approval ratings. I mean, he is, he is not, he is not winning over people with his behavior and his conduct. What will happen now is whether this war comes to a conclusion that puts the world in a better place than it was before the war and before he became president. And history will judge. But he has already, I think, written off the idea that there is anything that he can do to get a pass. He, he doesn't get a pass. He shouldn't get a Pass. No one on this panel, I think, probably likes this tweet. So if he's not gonna get support from us, I don't know who he's gonna get support from. But that's, I think, an important note to make. I mean, he has embraced his 40% in a way that will make it very hard for him to rise above 40% from here on in. Eliana. I'm sorry.
- [23:46]
F
Well, I think that's absolutely right. The only way out for him at this point, out and up is through, and so he has to proceed. But I think it's clear. And just before we got on this podcast, we saw that the military was. The American military was targeting Carg island, that there's no direct link between his words and, or straight line between his words and then what actually happened. So, like Abe, I'm skeptical that the plan is actually, oh, we're gonna carpet bomb the whole country. I think first it's a distraction technique for the enemy and that something else is likely afoot and we don't know what it is. Not to say I, you know, I tend to try to understand what the President is doing with these tweets. And in that endeavor, I see him quite successfully. You know, we're all sitting here talking about it continuously trying to keep himself at the center of events. You know that. And that is what he is doing with these tweets that put him in the center of the news cycle over and over and over again. That is not to say it's a good thing, but that is what it. What they do.
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C
We should note also that he's.
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F
Same with these deadlines.
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C
On the deadlines. I was just going to say we should note that he's given Hamas a deadline this week also that this is the week of deadlines and he feels that they're reinforcing each other.
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F
Oh, and one other thing, you know, as to your point, Seth, that it won't be covered this way in the press and this, that and the other. I, I don't really think there's anything the President could do that would generate positive press coverage. And so I think he's. He's written that off and he has to with these tweets. He's talking over and past them and he's long, I think, written off the way this stuff is gonna be covered in the media and he's got to change facts on the ground.
- [26:19]
E
Okay, just a couple things. I wanna dissent from what Jon said because Trump has an opportunity for democratic transitions in Venezuela, Cuba and Iran. If that happens at the end of his second presidency. And we have new governments that are aligned with America, that have some kind of democratic legitimacy. And you have images of Iranians knocking down statues of Qasem Soleimani and marching to the Majlis. And you have images of Cubans voting and Venezuelans eventually voting in an election. I do think that that will reset our politics. That is such a generational achievement and an advancement of, weirdly, not just American power, but American ideals.
- [27:12]
A
Oh, I don't disagree. I don't disagree.
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E
I'm not saying it's going to happen, by the way. I'm saying there is a real possibility that that could happen.
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A
Look, life is long, Eli. Life is long in this sense. Ronald Reagan was at 41%, according to Gallup, was at 41% at the low point of his presidency during the Iran Contra scandal. And when he left office, he was at 65% approval. If Trump over, you know, by the end of his presidency, if he achieves what you are talking about will, it's not just that history will look on him kindly. I think it is likely that the American people will look on him more kindly. Having said that, I think it's gonna be very difficult for him to win over Democrats ever, and who are not gonna feel kindly disposed toward him. And there'll still be emoluments, questions and corruption, questions and craziness and all of that.
- [28:05]
E
I'm just saying he's not gonna win over Tim Snyder and the resistance. But what I would say is this, is that for our purposes, it will be a delicious irony that a man who comes to power by getting the Republican Party effectively to turn on the Iraq war will have implemented the most neoconservative foreign policy objectives we've ever seen. The instrument of full neo conservatism will be the man who effectively destroyed it, or we thought had destroyed it, in the 2016 Republican primaries. So life is funny that way. No.
- [28:47]
F
How about the guy who is constantly accused of being an authoritarian, maybe more responsible for spreading Democratic ideals.
- [28:56]
D
Speaking of, I have one question.
- [28:59]
C
Sounds like the president has been mugged by reality, wouldn't you say?
- [29:02]
E
I cannot, Eli.
- [29:04]
D
But, Eli, this scenario, this scenario you've laid out, which I think all of us would agree is ideal, I've never heard. I've never heard President Trump say that that is his goal. I've heard him talking about wanting oil and wanting resources and saying, well, we got the bad guy out, but now he's dealing with the bad guys.
- [29:22]
E
I mean, wait, hold on, hold on.
- [29:23]
D
I've heard Rubio talk about this with regard to King.
- [29:26]
E
No, hold on, Christine. I want to. Trump says a lot of things, often contradictory. He has urged the Iranian people to take the control of the institutions. He has said, your moment is now to finally get the once in a lifetime chance to take back your government. He has talked about at least early Venezuela, a transition in Venezuela, that it's not going to be Delsey Rodriguez forever. And you're right, we haven't heard anything about, you know, the future of Cuban elections or anything like that. And it may not happen because you're right. He also says the other stuff, but I'm saying that the possibility, the window is there like it's never been since I have been covering this stuff in like, I've been doing this for now a quarter of a century. And I have never seen this kind of opportunity that we have right now in three really important things. I mean, this is like, just to go back. Like, neoconservatives have been talking about freedom for Iran and Cuba for what, 50 years for Iran, longer than that for Cuba and Venezuela. I mean, you think about Elliot Abrams and the works that he's done on this. And it has been a major part of, of a kind of neoconservative project in a lot of ways. And here we have the person who might finally achieve that and implement it is someone that the neoconserve that split the neoconservatives. I mean, like we have Bill Kristol now at the Bulwark and, you know, tune into Bob Kagan if you want to know, kind of where that side of the movement.
- [30:54]
A
So not to get too in the weeds on neoconservatism, but neoconservatism was not about pursuing a freedom agenda that is actually in its original. What I mean by that is where Trump is following a tendency in this regard is the idea that America needs to show toughness, resolve, a willingness to use military force after Vietnam seemed to end, the idea that America would ever again use military force and resist and refuse to accommodate totalitarian regimes, and Iran constitutes a totalitarian regime, and that those regimes are to be fought and blocked and stopped and their efforts at expansion curtailed. And then there was this unexpected, like, bonanza from this policy, or at least some mild implementation of this policy when the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc collapsed In the late 90s, at which point, freedom as opposed to the beginnings. You mentioned Elliott Abrams, who's my brother in law in the 1980s at the state Department, trying to convince regimes both in the Philippines, in one sense, and then across Central and South America to start implementing democratic building or implementing democratic procedures and strengthening themselves against generals coups and communist overthrow and fighting against that. The Freedom Agenda, arguably was a bridge too far. And it was not a neoconservative agenda. That was Michael Gerson and George W. Bush. I'm not rejecting it. I'm just saying.
- [33:01]
E
Can I just push that slightly? Ever so slightly. Okay, you go first, Eliana. Then I wanna.
- [33:07]
F
I was just gonna say. Christine is right. And same with you, John, in that Trump is not doing these things because he cares about the spread of freedom. You know, he pursued the Venezuela operation because the Maduro regime was creating a migrant crisis, which was an issue that he ran on that was directly affecting the United States and our national security. And Iran, he's been insistent for decades that they not obtain a nuclear weapon. And I think he viewed both of those as serious national security issues. The spread of freedom and democracy may be incidental results of those things, but for Trump, I think it's not a core.
- [33:59]
A
You're right. You're right that it's incidental to him, but it's not incidental to history in this sense, which is.
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F
I totally agree.
- [34:07]
A
Right, so why.
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E
I totally agree.
- [34:09]
A
So he goes after Venezuela because it's creating migrant crisis. Why is it creating a migrant crisis? Because it's allied with Iran, it's a communist country, and it is sowing irredentism on our continent. And the people who said seven or eight years ago that it was important to get the regime out because it had lost free elections, that it was stomping on in the person that dovetails with the rail sort of hard power idea about how this guy has got to go because he is directly harming us inside our borders. And so the same could be said of Cuba and the same could be said of Iran, if you want to talk about energy instability and other things like that. So while he's not pursuing a freedom agenda, the Freedom Agenda pursues him because the. The application of American power in changing
- [35:02]
C
Freedom Agenda is interested in you.
- [35:06]
A
I totally agree.
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F
And we saw Trump dip his toe into these waters or see where these things converge in January, when he saw the regime in Iran gunned down tens of thousands of people, and he told the protesters, help is on the way. And then he kind of got. He got caught in the gears of that and was trying. You know, he spent a couple of months trying to figure out exactly what he wanted to do. And now here we are.
- [35:39]
E
Hold on. Can I just get back to an earlier thing on neoconservatism, and maybe it's a pecanic point. The Jean Kirkpatrick Dictatorship and Double Standards, which ran in commentary in what, 79, 1979.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, the article Dictatorships and Double Standards.
- [35:54]
E
Your point about standing up to totalitarian terrorism, that is the kind of first generation neocon where it was during the Cold War and it was like, let's get tough. I can't believe, like Jimmy Carter, you know, can't distinguish between our allies in South America and like, you know, communist dictatorships. But after the fall of the Soviet Union, I would say that neoconservativism 2.0 evolved into something like a freedom agenda in that, you know, and there was, in fact, in Commentary, Bob Kagan wrote like the rejoinder 17, 16 years later to Kirkpatrick saying, no, we should pursue this stuff. And if you count, you know, I don't know, Bush's second inaugural, you say that's not really neocon, but it's at least in the popular imagination, understood, you know, in that respect, I would say that it evolves in the absence of.
- [36:45]
A
It wasn't neocon. It was Christian utopianism. It was like the opposite of neoconservatism.
- [36:50]
E
All right, and by the way, by
- [36:52]
A
the way, hold on.
- [36:54]
E
Neocons were fine with that. I was. Sharanski's not a Christian. Well, okay. You, you. Okay. Congratulations.
- [37:02]
A
No, I'm sorry, I wasn't.
- [37:03]
E
The Okron OG Award.
- [37:05]
A
When I heard, when I heard the second inaugural, I was like, oh, man, they're going too far. Like, this is. This is rhetorically irresponsible. I said it at the time, I believed it. And I want to point out one more thing, and then we can get off neoconservatism forever here, which is that neoconserv my father. That's not gonna happen, by the way. Founders of neoconservatism gave a, you know, basically said that it no longer existed. In the late 90s, there was no such thing as neoconservatism. It had folded into conservatism more generally speaking, which I believe to be the case. I just think what's interesting about this discussion is Trump is a neocon in the sense that he's a first generation neocon, as you would describe it. He's not a. The point, I think was we should stand up against the Soviet Union for two reasons, one of which is it's evil, and we should stand up against evil. But that's not. It was threatening in its irredentism and its revolutionary nature. It's why it's important. What you said about Iran at the beginning of the podcast, that Trump says he's going to destroy Iranian civilization. The Iranian revolution was a revolution in the purest sense. They said that 1979 was year zero. That's like the French Revolution. Right. The idea was history is beginning today. Everything past was wrong. What we're doing from here on is new. It's new. Even if V. S Naipaul and others said it was an effort to restore an imagined past, and therefore they're the revolution and what comes after it is a restoration. Sort of. And that's where you're. You're right. And where this is important. And yes. Was it irresponsible or Trump say he's going to destroy the civilization? Obviously, it's a demented thing to say. It's a deranged thing to say. It's even, you know, but.
- [39:05]
F
And it contradicts. His help is on the way. You know, he says things that are at odds with each other at different times.
- [39:13]
A
Yeah. Anyway.
- [39:14]
E
All right, let me just leave it at this. If we get even one third of the Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, I want Trump honored at the annual dinner.
- [39:25]
A
Okay.
- [39:27]
E
Okay.
- [39:27]
C
You think Trump would be roasted? Trump will agree to be roasted.
- [39:33]
E
I want to give Trump.
- [39:34]
A
He's been roasted.
- [39:35]
E
That's what I want. I want to give Trump the Norman Bedard Irving Kristol Award for neoconservative statecraft.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah, I'm sure he'll love taking it. Now, I want to point out something very, very important here, which is something that Trump has now reported, which has now been reported because it goes to this question of who supports Trump, who doesn't, where Trump is on these matters. Trump has finally gone for Tucker Carlson's jugular. In an interview with Caitlin Dornbus of the New York Post, Trump has said the following this morning. Tucker's a low IQ person that has absolutely no idea what's going on. He calls me all the time. I don't respond to his calls. I don't deal with him. I like dealing with smart people, not fools. This came after Tucker's amazing weekend in which he said no one should insult Islam, whereas he's 20 years ago said something like, I hate Islam. Islam is disgusting. Screw Islam himself. He said that Trump was basically satanic, desecrating Easter and was like an evil force. So Trump has had enough of tucker. Good luck, J.D. vance. Congratulations, J.D. vance. You got yourself in to the Trump administration through Tucker. Let's See you extricate yourself from Tucker to have continued authority inside the Trump administration after this is all I can say. Okay, I just needed to bring that up. Georgie is my dog. She's four years old. Got her during COVID for the kids. Two of my kids are now off in color college. So Georgie is now my dog, my wife's dog. We love the dog. We were never going to get a dog. And now, of course, we can't think about life without her and we worry about her health, we worry about problems with her and we pay too much attention to her, to be frank. So now let me give you a quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. So she's part of our family. And vet bills are like any bill for any member of your family. They're necessary, you don't question them. But they can add up quicker than you can imagine, which is why it's worth checking out. ASPCA Pet Health Insurance. Pet insurance can help manage the vet bills so you can focus on what really matters, making sure your pet gets the care she needs when she needs it. Oh, and there's a little bonus. There's a perk for enrolling. When you enroll in an ASPCA pet health insurance plan, you could get a $25Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you when you're doing something great for your pet. The program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care they may need. To Explore coverage, visit ASPCA pet insurance.com commentary that's ASPCA pet insurance.com commentary Eligibility restrictions apply. Visit aspcapetinsurance.com Amazon terms for more info. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Ltd. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. I want to talk to you today about quince and it's an interesting day to do that because last night I decided I needed some shirts because I've decided on the podcast, if you watch it on video, that I should wear button down shirts with ties. And I have some kind of cheesy old shirts that are kind of fraying. And what did I do? The first thing I did, I went to quints. I went to the quint's website. I bought three different shirts, three different models on sale, a couple of them on sale, one not on sale, but the price so low they're coming in the next day or two and I'm telling you right now, they're going to be great. They're going to look great, good. They're going to last a long time. That's what you get with Quints. The kind of material, the kind of quality and the kind of price point that you just dream of. And that's been my experience with Quint ever since I started buying sweaters, jackets and all kinds of properties from Quint. The best part, those prices 50, 60% less than similar brands. How is that possible? Because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Everything is designed to last and make getting dressed easy. So refresh your wardrobe just like I did with quince. Go to quince.com commentary for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Quincy for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com commentary. Artemis, can I just say, we really haven't this country has not taken full measure of the fact that we're back in space after half a century. I know. I mean real space. I don't mean like, you know, space station. Space station.
- [45:23]
D
The farthest we've ever human, humans have ever traveled into space so far.
- [45:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's awesome. This country remains awesome. And I'm sick of this, you know, world in which everything is terrible and we're all, everything is so terrible. We are doing awesome things. And as if you've been reading Jim, Meg's formerly of Commentary now at the Wall Street Journal's Free Expression, Free Expression Vertical. But Jim wrote for years about how NASA was changing and how the appointment of Jared Isaacman, the new head of NASA, was going to be revolutionary. And here's Jared Isaacman, who has in fact gotten Artemis into space and is now planning a potential Mars mission, which is, you know, which is a decade ahead in the future or something, but nonetheless is worthy of celebration. There's one Trump appointment that I don't think you're gonna see a firing of. Pretty soon though we are now hearing all kinds of the firing stuff is all bubbling all over the place. We got firing rumors everywhere.
- [46:28]
D
Can I just add, the Artemis crew also, in the midst of their extraordinary mission, had time to make a hilarious parody of cheesy 80s sitcoms introductions where they went around the crew and introduced themselves that personally again as a Gen Xer just warmed my heart. So it's the ease and sense of humor While they're literally risking their lives for science, that also is kind of great.
- [46:50]
C
Not a lot to do in space. It's like baseball that fix the toilet. It's like how baseball players kind of get crazy on the bench and in the bullpen and stuff like that.
- [46:59]
A
You know, there's plenty to do.
- [47:03]
C
Not if you're in the bullpen waiting all game and.
- [47:05]
A
Yeah, but. No, but I think there's points. There's like checks and, you know, they got a check on the thing, then it's. You know, I think there's plenty to do. And they did fix the toilet. And by the way, that's part of the annoying part is we got word that there was a problem with the toilet and they fixed the toilet. So, like, that just shows they're competent. Like, not only could I not fly into space, okay, I wouldn't know how to fly. I wouldn't know how to fix the toilet, let alone fly.
- [47:40]
D
That's actually YouTube's value to civilization. I watched videos and fixed my toilet using YouTube.
- [47:46]
A
So, you know me. I did too, actually, but I didn't go very well. Okay, Eliana, tell us something.
- [47:56]
F
I'm really shocked to hear that, John, that you tried to fix your toilet and it didn't go well.
- [48:00]
A
And what's more. Hold on, I got to write things down. The toilet was, in fact, broken in a way that I could not fix it. Just to be fair.
- [48:11]
D
It's a hard workman who blames his tools, John.
- [48:16]
A
Gee, thanks.
- [48:16]
D
Okay, well, you're ripping Seth about his collar, so I had to get one in there.
- [48:21]
A
That's fair enough.
- [48:22]
C
Okay, look, thank you for. Thank you, Christine, for having my back, you know?
- [48:26]
A
You know, according to Jackie Mason, the story about a Jewish household and how Jews have something much better than a screwdriver. They don't have a screwdriver. They have so much. It's called a butter knife. So you always know if a screw has been screwed or unscrewed because there's a little cream cheese stuck in the screw.
- [48:49]
C
Anyway, not to continue the derailment, but I sometimes wonder how people who don't wear yarmulkes and have yarmulke clips, how they open things, how they get through their day. I used to do this in college, and my college roommates called me majoover after MacGyver because I always had like, these things in my head I'd take down, and you can open anything with it. And now they make. By the way, now they make tool keepa clips that has a saw and
- [49:22]
A
this is extremely insulting because Eli and I both married in Jewish ceremonies, I believe, and we can't wear yarmulke clips. As will be detailed. If you're watching on YouTube, where you should like and subscribe, subscribe. My wife was like, you need to get a yarmulke with a clip. And I'm like, honey, I don't have any hair. I can't clip the. The clip to my hair. So I don't want one because it'll be there, and I can't clip. And Eli is even worse than I am.
- [49:56]
E
My daughter says I have pretend hair.
- [49:59]
A
Well, you have a little hair. I have a little hair.
- [50:00]
E
I do have more hair.
- [50:01]
A
20 years ago when I got married. 20, 22, 23 years ago when I got married. But not enough to have a. To have a yarmul clip. And people don't even know what you're talking about with the.
- [50:12]
E
You got to get the bigger one.
- [50:16]
A
There it is. You see? Yamala sticks to the hair. He's got a little. It's like a bobby pin or. What do you call that? It's a hair. It's a. It's a. My daughter's.
- [50:25]
C
A hair clip of some. I'm sure it has. I'm sure it has a name. Like, I don't know.
- [50:29]
B
It's a very satisfying applying snap to it, by the way.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah. Makes a nice snap. And Abe has hair so he can use it.
- [50:34]
B
I do.
- [50:35]
C
When I make a point and then I walk out of the room, I just do this.
- [50:37]
A
It just means, by the way, that Hila and I have more testosterone than you guys. I just want to point out that's why we've lost our hair is because of an excess of testosterone. I'm not saying that you have a testosterone problem or anything. I'm just. If you're gonna. If you're gonna brandish. If you're gonna brandish your keepa clip.
- [50:58]
D
I'm a little concerned about the looks maxing direction this podcast has taken today. I'm just putting that out there. We need to. We need to.
- [51:05]
A
Okay, let's. Let's.
- [51:06]
C
The women should feel better because you can see the guys do. Think about it.
- [51:10]
F
See that we are about looks and fashion, and this is my strong suit.
- [51:19]
A
That is your strong suit.
- [51:21]
F
I would be great at this.
- [51:23]
E
Okay.
- [51:23]
A
I wish.
- [51:24]
F
Mogging. What's that? The new term.
- [51:28]
A
See, no one knows. You're the only one who knows the new term.
- [51:33]
F
Yeah. Moggin.
- [51:34]
E
What is it?
- [51:35]
F
It means to appear significantly more attractive. Stylish or dominant than someone else.
- [51:42]
A
I just got through smaxing. Now I gotta learn mogging.
- [51:45]
F
Mogging.
- [51:47]
A
Like, you know, I'm getting old. I can't remember all this stuff. I can barely remember.
- [51:52]
D
It was like moving back in the day. John, that'll kind of.
- [51:55]
E
Okay, fair enough.
- [51:56]
F
To outclass mogging all the other podcasts
- [52:02]
A
who came up with Mogging the manosphere.
- [52:05]
F
So that's all you need to know.
- [52:07]
A
Okay, there you go. Fair enough.
- [52:08]
F
Okay, well, it came up when clavicular. No. Oh no. I realized I made a mistake when I said it said that Gavin Newsom.
- [52:22]
D
Keep going, keep going.
- [52:25]
F
Mogs. J.D. vance. Because Newsom is so handsome.
- [52:31]
A
Okay, I. That he is handsome.
- [52:36]
F
Are you taking on the proper use of mogging?
- [52:41]
A
I am willing to say that he is. He is handsome. And if the. Fortunately that does not seem to be a standard now for, you know, who gets elected president. Although I gotta say, you look at Trump like 40, 50 years ago, you see some of those images. He was like a, he was a good looking guy in his 20s. There's no question. I don't know what he looks like now.
- [53:02]
F
I'd go up to 50s.
- [53:03]
A
Okay, all right, well, all right.
- [53:07]
E
When they're starting with the element, I
- [53:10]
C
just used it as a descriptive term. Like after dinner, I'll say this, honey, this meatloaf is clavicular.
- [53:18]
A
This is like doing a podcast on election day when you have literally nothing to say about the everything's coming and it's like we're waiting for 8 o', clock, you know, and so we got nothing. So we're just like going off, you know, in all crazy.
- [53:32]
C
The second we sign off, Carg island is going to be blown into the air.
- [53:36]
A
Exactly. So if that happens, just know that we were here being silly while, you know,
- [53:45]
D
Iran burn.
- [53:50]
A
I do want to say that I don't entirely understand where the never Trumpers and the really, really serious resistance anti Trump people, where they're gonna go after this because they what rhetoric? Just as Trump is able to kind of like say, now I'm gonna destroy an entire civilization.
- [54:21]
E
What.
- [54:22]
A
What can they say in response to him that will reflect their true feelings? That will. What vocabulary is left in their quiver for them to fire at him and to keep their outrage machine going for another almost three years. I mean it's like three years until he's out of office.
- [54:49]
E
Can anyone think it's pretty obvious the low hanging fruit is the corruption. The low hanging fruit is the self dealing of, you know, prominent Trump family members and people who are like, making policy. And, you know, whether it's the cyber thing, which I don't entirely understand, I mean, that's cyber, the crypto currency, you know, the various kinds of investments, the children of, like, Steve Witkoff and the Trump. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff like that that's, in normal times, would be cause for scandal and congressional oversight. And if Democrats take the House, which it looks like they probably will, and maybe the Senate will see, that would be the one avenue where kind of like, you guys complained about Hunter Biden, you know, the Trump administration is like, hold my beer.
- [55:43]
A
That's serious. That's policy. And that's actually a serious question and something that might have to be taken up seriously. And I'm not. I'm saying I'm looking at people responding to the Trump civilization tweet, right? And it is as though they are just sputtering incoherently because they can't. He has gone someplace that even they couldn't imagine. And, you know, people who have no right to be expressing themselves morally, like apologists for Putin, like Glenn Greenwald, saying this is one of the sickest, most demented, most morally reprehensible, and most disgusting things any American president has ever said. But it's vital to remember that among his most influential war advisors are the fanatical Israel first loyalist Laura Loomer, and Mark Levin now getting a lecture from a credibly accused pedophile communist traitor to the United States like Glenn Greenwald. Congratulations is not exactly something that we need to look at and say that's where people are going. But, I mean, where is Bill gonna go? Where's Bill Kristol gonna go? Where is Anne Applebaum gonna go? Where is Tom Nichols gonna go? Where are they gonna go? It's April 21st.
- [57:01]
E
Come on. You know, listen. You know the answer to that. They look at that tweet and they say, we told you 10 years ago, we told you, we warned you, and here we are living through the nightmare. And they are looking at everybody, and they're saying, this one joined the resistance then. And they're like, you know, that's what they're saying. They're saying, he's proving our point. This is all happening right in front of our eyes. And by the way, if he really does bomb all the power plants, they might have a point, because that would be not just strategic, enormous blunder. It'd be an act of enormous, incredible cruelty, and one that will not advance our war aims. So I'm not saying they were Wrong about Russia. Again, I'm not saying everything, but what I'm saying is that that's how they're looking at it. In a weird way, this is confirmation for Trump's most dedicated opposition that they were right all along.
- [58:00]
A
Trump it is.
- [58:01]
E
Go ahead.
- [58:02]
B
He's never going to stop giving them material. Trump creates. He builds weapons for the resistance. He needs to. He likes to. We imagine that there's no place for him to go crazier than saying tonight a great civilization will be destroyed. He'll find something. That's his imagination.
- [58:27]
A
Now, hold on, Abe, Abe.
- [58:29]
E
What's the one place he's never gone? Never said the N word.
- [58:33]
D
There you go.
- [58:35]
A
Okay. One thing I do want to. I mean, there are a couple of things to point out here. One is that while he is saying we're going to destroy the civilization tonight, a senior US Official is told, just told Fox we are absolutely in touch with Iran. The talks have been positive. If we get lucky, we will have something by the end of the day. By the way, then Anthony Scaramucci is saying he is calling for a nuclear strike.
- [59:05]
D
Had to clean up after the tweet. That's the typical cleanup on aisle four after every time Trump tweets. They've done that. They did that in the first term, too. They always have to do that.
- [59:14]
E
Negotiations with Ayatollah Snuffleupagus is going quite well. My imaginary mullah has agreed to most of our terms.
- [59:22]
A
Okay, I'm now going to ask the question I asked Eli on
- [59:28]
E
and I
- [59:28]
A
asked our friend Jonathan Schanzer, who's going to be on tomorrow, which is this question for you. We are hearing that basically the regime, the command, control and functions of the state of Iran are now entirely in the hands of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. The irgc, meaning the mullahs are sidelined. Obviously, we don't know the condition of Muqtada Khamenei, the supposed, you know, ayatollah, or the other mullahs. We heard the other day that another 50 leaders were eliminated in a strike on Saturday or something like that. If the IRGC is now functionally in charge of Iran, is that regime change? Because the regime is no longer being run by eight 90 year old Shiite mullahs. Can Trump say, I've made a deal with so and so we're calling off the elimination of their civilization. And this is the new regime. I made a deal with, you know, General, you know, Peshmashki of the, you know, and he will now be the leader of Iran or something like that.
- [60:53]
B
Little known Polish general in Iran.
- [60:59]
A
Well, Peshmanian, I don't know, whatever. Anyway, Eli, you said.
- [61:02]
E
No, no, no, no, no, no. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps had pretty much taken over the country under Khamenei and that was how Khamenei wanted it. And so it's not that. I mean, if he gets a corrupt general who doesn't want to die and will accede to the pressures of the US then we would have, I mean, what, what Neil Ferguson, my colleague at the Free Press calls regime alteration. But again, I, if, if the deal allows the regime to kill another 30,000 or however many protesters once they come out, I think we will have missed a strategic opportunity.
- [61:48]
D
Those killings have continued. I mean, they have, they're executing prisoners almost every day in Iran still. And I would say if that it's also not regime change because it would be, especially if we put in an American controlled puppet as the leader of Iran. You have recreated the very conditions that led to the revolution in the 70s that brought the Ayatollahs to power, which is the perception that the people who would be in not a great state anyway after this conflict, which hopefully will end sooner rather than later given the economy and the damage to the country, a population controlled by an IRGC type stooge is that, that's not leadership. That's. And where America is kind of calling the shots is, is not ideal for the Iranian people long term.
- [62:35]
B
I mean, I do think there is something to the idea here that if the war ends, if the US involvement in the war ends with Iran a huge step closer to regime change. That's not a bad thing.
- [62:57]
E
No, I mean that's, that would be good, right? Yeah, right.
- [63:00]
C
But that's also, well, that's, I mean, that's also, I think that's part of it, which is, might be ongoing regime change, like the war may end. But I can guarantee you that Iranian leaders are still going to be found by, you know, Israeli strikes for the foreseeable future. I mean, Israel doesn't, the target assassinations haven't stopped. They didn't stop with Hamas, they didn't stop with Hezbollah. They didn't, you know, there are ceasefires in those places, but when there's somebody, a terrorist who needs to be taken out, they're taken out. I think that's the great fear of Iran, is that they understand that, you know, Trump can say it's a ceasefire, we've opened the strait. But that Trump saying that is no guarantee that, you know, the Ongoing picking off of Iranian leaders will end.
- [63:57]
A
Eli.
- [63:58]
C
Work in progress.
- [63:59]
A
Eli, I believe you wanted to make a recommendation before we. Before we go.
- [64:05]
E
Yes, I've been listening to Foreigner 4. Kidding. I did that as a troll. Anyway, my real recommendation is, because it is Pesach, I recommend picking up the second memoir of the great Menachem Begin, a man who I consider the greatest Jew of the 20th century, if not one of the greatest people of the 20th century, because there is a wonderful story in White Nights, which is his memoir of his time in the gulag in the Soviet Union, in which he observes the satyr with a fellow prisoner by rationing cups of coffee that he makes the four glasses of wine and does it in secret at great peril. And what it, to me shows is this concept that Begin and Jabotinsky, really, that I think we need more of, particularly in America, among American Jews, of hadar, which is. It's not excessive pride. It is a kind of pride from within the light, and it's to try to make the world holy, but it's also a kind of defiance in the face of people who would demean you and not treat you as a person. Person. And Begin, his entire life embodied that. No more so than in one of his weakest positions, emaciated as a political prisoner under Stalin's Soviet Union. And he still went out of his way to observe the Seder, to observe Shabbat, to retain his Jewishness, even in a Gulag. So, to me, I just feel like that is a kind of parable. Not just for the Seder, It's a parable for American Jews in 2026 that we find ourselves made uncomfortable at dinner parties and on college campuses. I always sort of say, let's look to the example of Begin. Our people have lived through much worse. So there it is. My recommendations, White Knights. I'm an Achenbing. Also read the Revolt, his other great memoir about, you know, leading the Irgun against the British in Mandate Palestine, is another fantastic book. But I love White Knights. It's great.
- [66:14]
A
Wonderful recommendations.
- [66:18]
E
And Foreigner4.
- [66:20]
A
And Foreigner4.
- [66:23]
E
And Van Halen. Better, at least.
- [66:26]
A
At least.
- [66:27]
C
Did Bagan played the keyboards on Foreigner four, right?
- [66:30]
E
Yeah, no, he's. He's got a solo on Dirty White.
- [66:32]
C
I feel like he's in the liner notes, at least.
- [66:36]
E
You're not gonna.
- [66:37]
A
You're not gonna provoke some kind of a confrontation over the. Over the return of. Yay. That Abe is particularly.
- [66:44]
E
No, we already did Abe. And I did that on Twitter. Okay. I compared Abe's. Abe's anti Kanye at this point is like. It's like someone who's just like, you know, these. The Beatles couldn't shine Glenn Miller's tennis shoes anyway.
- [66:59]
A
Yeah, well, if the Beatles were, you know, psychotic, schizophrenic pieces of. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, well, he.
- [67:10]
E
He was going through a mental illness breakdown. He's apologized, actually, and he change. Changed his horrible song, and now it just. It doesn't say Hitler. Anyway, later.
- [67:19]
B
Again, John, you wait a day. Provoke the thing that you didn't want.
- [67:24]
A
This is one wack today. Yes.
- [67:28]
B
This is the craziest podcast we've ever done. Entirely apart from Kanye's disgusting politics and worldview, his music is terrible. He is a musical illiterate. Thank you.
- [67:41]
F
Okay, can I also just say one thing about Kanye?
- [67:45]
A
Yes.
- [67:46]
F
The guy issued an apology. You know, he tried to apologize, and he's like, oh, you know, I had a mental break. But, like, he. He did it in a way that he didn't guarantee it might not happen again. Like, he basically.
- [68:02]
A
It wasn't his first apology. He did it was He.
- [68:07]
B
He issued an apology in 23 as well.
- [68:10]
C
Look, every year in Kapoor, it's not our first apology either. Right. How many times?
- [68:15]
F
It could happen at any time.
- [68:17]
C
I just want to say, in the interest of pundit accountability, I once wrote an article titled, stop telling Kanye to take his Meds. And I think that maybe in hindsight, that was not great advice.
- [68:34]
A
Look, Eli feels about Kanye the way many classical music lovers felt about Wagner. It's just that simple. You must separate out the art from the art.
- [68:49]
E
By the way, the way many lovers of poetry feel about T.S. eliot. I mean, you know, T.S.
- [68:55]
A
eliot's not as bad as Kanye. I'm sorry, Ezra Pound maybe as bad as Kanye.
- [69:01]
D
I was going to say Ezra Pound did that one. Yeah.
- [69:03]
E
Okay. Anyway, T.S. eliot was hating the Jews. Okay.
- [69:06]
A
All right, look, the one thing you
- [69:08]
D
do have to say about Kanye, he was kind of patient zero of the Kardashians. Like, he. Like there was that whole. That's what started him down this destructive path, is being anywhere in the orbit of the Kardashian family. And it's happened to many men.
- [69:21]
E
Even those come to the family with
- [69:24]
D
their own mental health problems.
- [69:26]
C
Once again, it goes back to O.J.
- [69:28]
A
everything goes back to O.J. fair
- [69:32]
E
enough. Anyway.
- [69:34]
A
Okay, well, I didn't even know we were going to get to O.J. now we gotta go. Okay, bye. Thanks, Eli. For Seth Eliana Christina Nabeb, John Podhorts Keep the candle burning.