Touring Through History

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast – "Touring Through History"

Date: August 20, 2025
Host: John Podhoretz
Panelists: Seth Mandel, Matthew Continetti, Abe Greenwald

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Episode Overview

This special "undated" episode of The Commentary Magazine Podcast explores the panelists' favorite historical sites—places imbued with meaning, memory, and lessons about civilization. The hosts share travel stories, personal reflections, and thoughtful commentary, spanning from Jewish heritage in Spain to American battlefields, Revolutionary landmarks, and ancient cities. The discussion is an engaging mix of historical reverence, humor, and practical travel tips, catering to listeners with an appetite for history, culture, and the unexpected role of the past in the present.

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Segment Breakdown & Key Insights

1. Introduction and Context

• [00:25] John Podhoretz introduces the panel: Abe Greenwald, Seth Mandel, and Matthew Continetti.
• The episode is presented as a "break" from the daily news—offering culture, wisdom, and historical recommendations for listeners planning vacations or curious about world heritage.

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2. Seth Mandel: Hidden Jewish History in Barcelona

• [02:54] Seth Mandel shares his experience uncovering Jewish history in Barcelona:
  • Ancient Mikvah under the Kylem Cafe:
    • The juxtaposition of modern life (drinking coffee) above an ancient ritual bath.
      • “Life sort of goes on, you know, above and around all this history in Barcelona, not just Jewish history, but history in general. It's kind of a remarkable city in that way.” (Seth Mandel, 03:34)
    • Lack of preservation for Jewish heritage led to sites being built over or incorporated unnoticed into the city (e.g., Hebrew-inscribed headstones in building foundations).
    • Walking Barcelona’s Gothic streets feels "like ghosts kind of floating through the city" due to the interwoven layers of the past.
  • The Great Synagogue Discovery:
    • Archaeologists identified a misaligned building facing east, indicating an ancient synagogue.
    • Behind nondescript doors can be found “real treasures,” making Barcelona feel like a “giant historical site.”
  • Jewish Travel Tradition:
    • [08:18] “If they ever invent space travel and we go to Mars and I went to Mars with my mother, we'd get off the craft and my mother would say, is there a Jewish walking tour?” (John Podhoretz)

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3. Matthew Continetti: Civil War Sites – Fort Sumter and Gettysburg

• [09:03] Matthew Continetti highlights two U.S. Civil War sites:
  • Fort Sumter (Charleston, SC):
    • Site where the Civil War began in 1861.
    • Noted for its small, comprehensible size and well-delivered National Park Service tours.
    • “You feel thrust back in time and can imagine the boats, that kind of imagine the artillery. Some of the pieces are still there. So it was a very moving experience.” (Matthew Continetti, 10:27)
  • Gettysburg (PA):
    • Site of the war’s turning point.
    • The “Gettysburg experience” is walking the battlefield, visiting key locations (Pickett’s Charge, Little Round Top).
    • “…if you're walking in Virginia, in particular, where I'm from, if you're in Georgia, if you're in the Carolinas, you are walking on hallowed ground. This is where we fought a Civil war, where hundreds of thousands of Americans died and where the stain of Slavery was finally erased.” (Matthew Continetti, 12:08)
  • Matthew admits: “I'm not really a Civil War buff… but as I was contemplating this question, I realized, actually, maybe I should be.” (12:23)

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4. John Podhoretz: Intimate Encounters with American History

• [14:34] Podhoretz recalls visiting Antietam:
  • Empty, placid space with a visceral connection to the past—especially at "Bloody Lane," a trench where thousands died in hours.
    • “In this trench, in the space of 12 hours, 5,000 people killed each other… horror of what this war was and what it was doing to these brothers, you know, these people. So it was a kind of, you know, transformational moment for me.” (John Podhoretz, 15:10)
• [17:28] He describes stumbling onto Lexington Common—the site where the American Revolution began:
  • The small scale and proximity to ordinary life make the revolutionary spark tangible:
    • “…people are literally coming out of their houses across the street from the green to fight and then maybe getting shot or bayoneted or something, like on the front steps of their own houses. And so that from this tiny little skirmish, the world was altered forever.” (John Podhoretz, 18:42)

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5. Preserving History vs. Economic Progress

• [20:29] Podhoretz and Continetti discuss the controversy over Disney's planned “Americana” theme park near the Manassas battlefield (Civil War site):
  • The tension between economic development and the “sacred” quality of historical battlefields.
  • “There was a lot of the ordinary stuff about how it was going to cause a lot of traffic… but it was also like that there was something sacrilegious about putting this, you know, there would be like Civil War rides or whatever, adjacent to Manassas.” (John Podhoretz, 21:06)

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6. Abe Greenwald: Fraunces Tavern – The Heart of Revolutionary New York

• [23:16] Abe Greenwald recommends Fraunces Tavern (NYC):
  • Built in the late 1600s, site of the Sons of Liberty, Washington’s headquarters, and peace negotiations with the British.
  • Home to federal offices in early America and now a combined museum and tavern (with memorabilia such as Washington’s teeth).
    • “Sort of nothing else like it… now it is both a museum and still a very functioning tavern. So you go and you can see those early offices, you can see a ton of Washington memorabilia.” (Abe Greenwald, 24:29)

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7. John Podhoretz: Ancient Cities – Pompeii and the City of David

• [26:00] Pompeii (Italy):
  • Visited in December; describes the site as “more than you expect.”
    • “It is more stunning and astonishing than you would think. … just jaw dropping, you know, and you're sort of literally walking through a well to do town from 2000 years ago that wasn't looted, raided and destroyed over the centuries by invaders because it was all buried deep under ash.” (26:46–27:28)
• City of David (Ir David, Jerusalem):
  • Reviewed by Seth in the June Commentary.
  • Archaeological evidence of Jewish monarchy from nearly 3,000 years ago—proof of ancient Jewish civilization.
    • “It is just the damnedest thing you've ever… you've ever seen.” (John Podhoretz, 30:38)

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8. Seth Mandel: The City of David – Discovery Against the Odds

• [31:37] Seth tells the story of a serendipitous archaeological find in the City of David:

  • During mundane flood cleanup, limestone was spotted—turning out to be a football-field-sized stepping-stone into an ancient ritual bath.
    • “One of the guys on the architectural team is standing… the archaeologist had seen that there was some limestone underneath where this guy was about to… bulldoze or whatever under the mud. And that turned out to be a football field sized stepway into the ancient mikvah…” (Seth Mandel, 32:20)

• [34:20] Podhoretz elaborates on the ancient road to the Temple, discovered as part of the City of David excavations.

  • “...thus proving that the ancient temple existed and that the city of David existed and that the rituals that are described in the Bible were being practiced by these peoples 3,000 years ago.” (John Podhoretz, 34:40)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Life sort of goes on, you know, above and around all this history in Barcelona… But the overall effect is that there is like this Jewish history kind of, you know, like ghosts kind of floating through the city.” (Seth Mandel, 03:34–04:07)

• “You feel thrust back in time and can imagine the boats, that kind of imagine the artillery. Some of the pieces are still there. So it was a very moving experience.” (Matthew Continetti, 10:27)

• “In this trench, in the space of 12 hours, 5,000 people killed each other… the horror of it and the horror of what this war was and what it was doing to these brothers…” (John Podhoretz, 15:10)

• “From this tiny little skirmish, the world was altered forever in the most radical fashion in the history of the planet.” (John Podhoretz, 18:42)

• “Sort of nothing else like it… now it is both a museum and still a very functioning tavern.” (Abe Greenwald, 24:29)

• “If they ever invent space travel and we go to Mars… my mother would say, is there a Jewish walking tour?” (John Podhoretz, 08:18)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:54] Seth Mandel – Barcelona’s Jewish historical sites and living history
• [09:03] Matthew Continetti – Fort Sumter and Gettysburg battlefields
• [14:34] John Podhoretz – Antietam battlefield and Revolutionary Lexington Common
• [20:29] Disney vs. Manassas: Preservation vs. Progress
• [23:16] Abe Greenwald – Fraunces Tavern in NYC
• [26:00] John Podhoretz – Pompeii and the City of David (Jerusalem)
• [31:37] Seth Mandel – Serendipitous archaeological discovery in Ir David
• [34:20] John Podhoretz – Road to the Temple and proof of biblical history

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Conclusion

The hosts conclude by recapping their picks—a diverse array of sites reflecting Jewish and general history, from urban cafes layered over millennia-old rituals to revered battlefields and ancient cities revealed through archaeology. Each story underscores how history endures in unexpected places and how traveling with curiosity can turn any trip into a transcendent encounter with the past.

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Panel’s Picks, Summarized:

• Barcelona’s Jewish sites (Seth Mandel)
• Fort Sumter & Gettysburg (Matthew Continetti)
• Antietam & Lexington Common (John Podhoretz)
• Fraunces Tavern, NYC (Abe Greenwald)
• Pompeii & City of David (John Podhoretz & Seth Mandel)

For listeners: If you seek history—whether under your feet or across the ocean—look carefully; the world is full of “giant historical sites” waiting for discovery.

Transcript

[John Podhoretz]

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[Matt Ebert]

Some preach and pain Some die at first the way of knowing which way it's going Hope for the best Expect.

[Abe Greenwald]

The worst, Hope for the best.

[John Podhoretz]

Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily podcast, brought to you today by St. John's College. What kind of education does a free society require? At St. John's College, students study the great books of Western civilization, where they learn to think independently, hear others perspectives and understand the foundations of democratic society. It's an education for citizens, thought leaders, and those who will carry forward the best of the American tradition. A St. John's BA is equivalent to a double major in philosophy and the history of math and science and a double minor in literature and classical studies. It's demanding. It's not for everyone. It might be just right for your child. Learn more at sjc. Edu I am John Pothor. It's the editor of Commentary magazine. We are doing one of our undated shows this week. We are on a break and so we are trying to give you some entertainment in the form of cultural and historical and other types of observations, bringing our wisdom to bear on the deepest questions of Western society. And now you're bored to death. So I will now introduce my colleagues here. Executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.

[Seth Mandel]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

And Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.

[Matthew Continetti]

Hi, John.

[John Podhoretz]

So we thought today what we would do is recommend or talk some about our favorite historical sites. Now, this is not just in America, can be anywhere in the world, and it doesn't really need to be limited to one per panelist since that very hard to boil the world down to one favorite historical site. But nonetheless, I thought maybe this was something that could help people thinking of planning a vacation or you're going on vacation somewhere that sounds familiar to what we're talking about. And we have something to suggest to you. We will be doing so. So, Seth Mandel, I thought maybe I would ask you to kick us off here.

[Seth Mandel]

Sure. So I actually will combine Jewish history with just sort of general history and say and talk about what you can find in Barcelona. And especially the one that sticks out the most to me, and I think to a lot of people is the, the ancient mikvah. The ritual bath is underneath a cafe. I think it's called the Kylem Cafe in Barcelona. And when we were there, we had a friend with us, a Catholic whose family is from Barcelona. And he sort of acted as our unofficial tour guide. And he said today we're going to go to the mikvah. We're going to see it. And when we got there, we went in the cafe and we sat down, we had a cup of coffee. And I'm thinking the whole time this is like pre mikvah activities or something, you know, whatever. And at some point I said to him, billy, where's the mikvah? And he said, oh, well, you're kind of sitting in it. And then it's really underneath that, though. But you actually. Life sort of goes on, you know, above and around. All this history in Barcelona, not just Jewish history, but history in general. It's kind of a remarkable city in that way. But the Jewish history in part speak, you know, for. Not for unhappy reasons, right, which is there wasn't a ton of respect to give into Jewish ruins and things left behind.

[John Podhoretz]

It.

[Seth Mandel]

They sort of just got incorporated into the city. I mean, there are, there are more morbid examples of this. Like, you know, Jewish headstones have been incorporated into the building of buildings in some of the cities. You can see, like, you look at a foundation and you see Hebrew letters and stuff like that. But the overall effect is that there is like this Jewish history kind of, you know, like ghosts kind of floating through the city. And because there's so much of this sort of Gothic architecture and just the whole mood of Barcelona, it really allows you to kind of step back in time. You know, what we all love about Israel so much is that you can go there and feel like you're stepping back, you know, into this. Well, Barcelona has this kind of, you know, know, step through a portal, but it is combined with modern life. And so there are places in the Kylem Cafe you can sit, you know, and, and, and, and arch your neck and see through grates into the ancient Mikvah, you know, while you're having a cup of coffee. And, you know, I think a lot of people also, I, I should also mention the, the Great Synagogue, which is another famous Jewish landmark, but recent. I mean, in the last, I don't know, two decades, right, at the, at the most, that was, you know, they, they found in Barcelona, essentially. They went looking for, for Jewish artifacts and they found one of these buildings that had, was facing east when everything else on the street was facing, like northwest or something. And that, you know, the light bulb went off in their head and they said, maybe this is it. And they went in and eventually they did figure out that this was a Synag synagogue and one of the oldest. And it's just. Now it's just kind of a. It's a room, Nobody really, we should.

[John Podhoretz]

Stop and explain that. It is the, it is the sort of the mandate kind of, of Jewish tradition that the holy buildings or synagogue, whatever, wherever you put you are to face east toward Jerusalem. And so therefore this is a, this is a thing where you can locate a Jewish building often or a Jewish building that was used for prayer in places when they are off kilter because nobody would have them facing otherwise. Right.

[Seth Mandel]

And it can be difficult in these old cities because, you know, in these old cities everything is sort of mushed together. It's not like there's, it's not like you walk down a road and there's just standalone houses and this house has its back to the street or something like that. There's something very interesting about the way everything is just so integrated in these old places. And Barcelona is very much of that. So I felt like walking around Barcelona you could discover things like you were walking around this historical archaeological site. And even the Great Synagogue itself is like everything else, just a door, a nondescript door in an alleyway and every walls made of stone, cobblestone street, you know, etc. And you go in and it's, you know, kind of a low ceiling room that's not, you know, it's Great Synagogue evinces a picture that it's, it's not. But the point is that, you know, behind these nondescript doors you can find real, real treasures. So those, those two, those two are the ones. And that really kind of hooked me on Barcelona as, you know, kind of a large historical site on, in, in its own, in its own right. But maybe an unexpected one from a Jewish perspective. If we have Jewish travelers or people heading out there, it's a beautiful city. But, but this, you know, this kind of makes it feel like a giant.

[John Podhoretz]

Historical site for our, for our non Jewish listeners. You should understand that Jews have a habit of going no matter where they go. And they, one of the first things they do is try to find out whether there is a Jewish tour. So as a friend of mine once said, if, if they ever invent, you know, space travel and we go to Mars and I went to Mars with my mother, we'd get off the craft and my mother would say, is there a Jewish walking tour? Where could we book the Jewish walking tour on Mars? So literally almost any, any major city in the world you go to, there's some, there's somebody there who's got a Jewish tour to take you on. Matt, what do you have? Sure.

[Matthew Continetti]

Thanks, John. I have two Places where I felt the closest to history, and they are both tied to the American Civil War. The first is Fort Sumter, which you can visit by taking a ferry from Charleston in South Carolina. And of course, Fort Sumter was where the Confederates shelled in 1861, shortly after Lincoln's inauguration. And the resupply of Fort Sumter led to the beginning of the Civil War. So the opening of the Civil War, it's a beautiful ferry ride, and then you arrive.

[John Podhoretz]

And.

[Matthew Continetti]

The interesting thing about Fort Sumter, unlike a lot of battlefields, is it's very comprehensible. I mean, it's small. You can walk around it very easily. And I had a very good tour guide when I was there. It's a national park, a tour guide. You kind of come off the ferry, you go into the middle of the fort, and then the tour guide gives you a very good summary of the lead up to the Civil War. Done very well. Talking about, in particular, just how crucial Lincoln's election was to the beginning of the Civil War. That was true. The states were seceding. As soon as Lincoln was elected, the south knew that he would not permit the expansion of slavery. And that would mean some type of eruption. And then you were just left alone for about an hour to just wander around, taking the sights. And I have to say, that was. You feel thrust back in time and can imagine the boats, that kind of imagine the artillery. Some of the pieces are still there. So it was a very moving experience. And the second site I mentioned was also related to the US Civil War, and that's Gettysburg, of course, the turning point of the war. And easily an easy trip from Washington D.C. or even New York City. Walk from New York City, but it is just an incredible space. And there are two. You know, there's a visitor center that's pretty good. But the Gettysburg experience is walking the battlefield, going to the different posts, going up and seeing where Pickett's Charge was going up to the Round Top, to the hills where the various redoubts were made, and then just trying to take it all in. And to think that when we're. When we were walking in much of the. You know, of course, Pennsylvania, and Gettysburg was the high point of the Confederacy in a way, but anywhere south of that, if you're walking in Virginia, in particular, where I'm from, if you're in Georgia, if you're in the Carolinas, you are walking on hallowed ground.

[John Podhoretz]

This is where we fought a Civil.

[Matthew Continetti]

War, where hundreds of thousands of Americans died and where the stain of Slavery was finally erased. And so both of those experiences have been very moving for me. And the irony is, I'm not really.

[John Podhoretz]

A Civil War buff.

[Matthew Continetti]

But as I was contemplating this question, I realized, actually, maybe I should be. Because those are the two historic sites that have meant the most to me.

[Abe Greenwald]

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[Matt Ebert]

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[John Podhoretz]

I had a similar experience 40 years ago. Now probably going to the battlefield of Antietam, which is. Which is an hour from.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yeah, I've never been to Antietam. Maybe that should be next in my list.

[John Podhoretz]

Well, so you know, Antietam was a battle that ended essentially in a kind of stalemate. I mean, bloodiest battle. I think it was the bloodiest battle of civil war. I think 22,000 casualties in three days. And I mention this because, you know, you're in this empty, placid space, right? It's, you know, acres and acres of park, right? And the. The most notorious site at Antietam is called Bloody Lane. It's a site. It was essentially a kind of sunken trench. And you can go in it. And in this trench, in the space of 12 hours, 5,000 people killed each other. And so at a moment when it can be very hard to have that understanding of what a war particularly what an eerie feeling, right, that I'm standing there and I did have this moment of what it must have been like when 5,000 people were crowded into this. I don't know what it is. It's not even like this. The width of a. Of a street, really, maybe a little narrower, are basically. They have bayonets and they are just slaughtering each other. And the horror of it and the horror of what this war was and what it was doing to these brothers, you know, these people. So it was a kind of, you know, transformational moment for me. And because of the physical quality of being in the trench and then being able to sort of have some feeling, I don't even think if you made a movie of it, it would look like a zombie. It would look like World War Z or something, because you would have to. You couldn't even capture the. Just the incarnating horror of it. And battlefields at their best, there may be this one or other moment when you suddenly feel transported and you have some sense of what it must have been like if you're on Little Round Top. Like to know that they're coming up at you or like that. So. Battlefield.

[Matthew Continetti]

So highly recommend.

[John Podhoretz]

But Gettysburg is the. Is the. Gettysburg is, of course, greatest.

[Matthew Continetti]

The greatest. But Fort Sumter, if you have the opportunity, if you're in Charleston, take. Definitely get on that ferry. It's just an afternoon. And I think you'll have a similar.

[John Podhoretz]

Experience as I had the experience two years ago. And this is sometimes the most wonderful way of having a moment of, like, historical discovery. Went to a birthday party for somebody in suburban Boston, and we were staying at something called the nice Inn outside Boston called the Lexington Inn. And it turned. We went for a walk in the morning, and it turned out that we were near Lexington Common, which is the. Which was the place where the American revolutionary war began 250 years ago, where the first. Right. Where the first. That's right where the first casualties of the Revolutionary War occurred in a conflict between the British and. And. And. And the Americans. And it was two blocks from this hotel. So my Wife and I go walk to. And you. You can't believe how small it is. I mean, it's like going to a village green in any village in New England. And basically, you know, they sort of pinpoint the places at which 30. 30 people, I think, were killed. 30Americans were killed. And, you know, people are literally coming out of their houses across the street from the green to fight and then maybe getting shot or bayonetted or something, like on the front steps of their own houses. And so that from this tiny little skirmish, the world was altered forever in the most radical fashion in the history of the planet. That also brings home history to you in a very strange way. This sort of intimate little. It's like this. This is how. This is how we came to be. And the answer is, yeah, that's. It's worth knowing that from tiny little seedlings, great oaks can grow.

[Matthew Continetti]

So when I.

[Seth Mandel]

When I was a local newspaper reporter earlier in my career, the first big scoop I ever had was they were trying to renew a train line, a passenger train line from, you know, south through North Jersey, which they used to have. If you go around New Jersey, you see old tracks that just aren't used anymore. And they had. They had settled on a specific route and a place. And my first big scoop was that the British had. The British government had objected to this New Jersey transit plan because the trains, the tracks went right through a Revolutionary War graveyard, which the British considered a British military graveyard. And that was, you know, it was like whatever. You know, that sort of thing was under your feet in New Jersey, all over the place. But that was like the. And so. And by the way, that train line has never. Has never happened, so no trains.

[John Podhoretz]

You know, in the 1980s, there was this huge controversy in the D.C. area, 80s and early 90s, when Disney announced that it was going to build this sort of Americana version of Disneyland or Disney World. Manassas adjacent. I mean, like, five miles from the Manassas battlefield, which is, of course, where the Civil War began. First real battle. The first real battle of the Civil War and the. And I remember, you know, being a sort of a. Someone who believed in economic progress and thought that NIMBYism was terrible and all of this.

[Matthew Continetti]

That.

[John Podhoretz]

That these people were crazy. There was a huge protest at the idea of building this site adjacent to Manassas. And there was a lot of the ordinary stuff about how it was going to cause a lot of traffic and that. But it was also like that there was something sacrilegious about putting this. You know, there would be like Civil War rides or whatever, you know, adjacent to Manassas. And now, from a perspective like 35 years on, I understand it much, much better. Disney eventually sort of like, gave up and said, well, you know, we're not gonna. We have no interest in, you know, building anything controversial. That's the last thing we want to be involved in. I don't know how I feel about this now. I mean, but it did seem a little crazy that you couldn't, like, build, you know, this something would. Would have been an incredible economic benefit for the. For the county and for the area and for the people.

[Matthew Continetti]

Very different Virginia, you know, at the 1990.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah.

[Matthew Continetti]

1990S. Closer to kind of the old Virginia, you know, that hasn't. Northern Virginia in particular hadn't quite transformed itself in the way that it has today.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. But, yeah, there was this weird mix of preservationism, kind of a liberal, mushy, you know, don't build.

[Matthew Continetti]

Interesting. It's a under. It's a not often remembered fight, but I've recently came across a commentary about it and it was. It was fun to relive, probably for the best that Disney opened the park. Of course, now they're just building solar farms near Civil War battlefields. And yes, no one raises any objections except the local residents who don't want to be baked.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah, the.

[Matthew Continetti]

The heat that comes from the solar farms.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. So they could have had. They could have had Mickey. They could have had Cinderella's castle. Yeah.

[Matthew Continetti]

Frontierland, Mickey.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

Abe, my pick has more to do with the Revolutionary War, and it's in New York. And it has to do with some other things, too. And I'm talking about Francis Tavern. Very interesting place. Sort of nothing else like it. F R A U N C E S Tavern. And it's in the Financial district. It was built originally, I think, like in the late late 17th century by a New York mayor, Van Cortland, and then changed hands through family. And it was eventually sold and it was a mansion and was eventually sold to someone who turned it into a tavern in the early 18th century. And this is where the Sons of Liberty would meet in secret. And it became a pivotal place for George Washington during the Revolutionary War. It was his headquarters for a while. It's where he gave his farewell to his. To the soldiers after the war.

[John Podhoretz]

And.

[Abe Greenwald]

It'S also where peace negotiations, some peace negotiations were conducted with the British. And it's where the very early offices, Federal offices of the Department of Finance, Foreign affairs and War, the early Republicans were. Were housed and They've preserved or recreated some of that. So now, now it is a, both a museum and still a very functioning tavern. So you go and you can see those early offices, you can see a ton of Washington memorabilia. There's. And you could see, you could all. They also set up what the, there's the rooms of how the, what the tavern looked like way back when. And there's, there's. They claim to have a, one of George Washington's teeth. It's in a little, it's in a glass case. You can look at it, a lock of his hair. And they also have other installations. Some of them change. Like when I was there, there was one about Washington portrayed in popular culture. There's, there's one about alternate proposals for an early American flag and so on. And like I said, it's also very much a functioning tavern. It has like four different dining rooms and bars and you got to make a reservation because it gets pretty crowded. But it's fun. It's a lot of fun and it's a viable museum as well.

[John Podhoretz]

So my choice, I'm going to pick two ancient sites which are unconnected, except for the astonishing. The fact of their astonishing uncovering two centuries apart. The first, which I visited last December, is Pompeii. If you are in Italy and you can figure out how to spend a day at Pompeii, it is more than you expect. It is more stunning and astonishing than you would think. Everybody knows the story. Pompeii, you know, buried by the explosion of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD and then 250 years ago, it was discovered that the ash had preserved almost like amber, the entirety of this kind of like resort town that was the summer residence of people who had come down from, from Rome mostly, and over the last 200 years and with great care. And they're, they're still doing it. They have uncovered this entire ancient city. Houses, brothels, the entire street pattern city pattern and intact buildings. The only thing that is not intact are the roofs. And they've learned so much about what life was like for this, for these well to do Romans and their slaves and their households. And just seeing it, the wall paintings which have survived, you know, the frescoes on the walls, the nature of everyday life, pottery, kitchens, how these households were set up and all of that is just jaw dropping, you know, and you're sort of literally walking through a well to do town from 2000 years ago that wasn't looted, raided and destroyed over the centuries by invaders because it was all buried deep under ash. And I did not expect. I expected to find it boring. Kind of. It's like, okay, I get the idea now I really want to go. And it had sort of like almost the, the opposite effect. And so if you go to Rome, you take a train to. Take a train to Naples and then you take another train or a bus to Pompeii and it's, it's just jaw dropping. And the other is. And Seth wrote about this in the June Commentary is the city of David, IR. David in East Jerusalem. So the story of Ir. David is very complicated. So you should read Seth's article review of Doron Spielman's book, which is called. What is it called when the Stones speak. Is that right? Ir. David. People thought that Jerusalem was the city of David as described in the Bible, and it was not. As it turns out, City of David was adjacent to what we now think of as the old City of Jerusalem. And the discovery of this again buried site, which has now been going on for 30 years. 20 years. 30 years. Unbelievable care being taken to expose every brick, every, every element, every coin, every. Everything there. All of which has the political effect of proving conclusively and for all time that there was a Jewish presence in the Holy Land. Not only, you know, at the time of the Romans, but in some of These discoveries, they're 600 to 800 years before the Romans, that there was in fact a Jewish monarchy that was based in a palace that was built on this, on this site. You can tour it and just the experience of being somewhere where there was marked evidence of a fully functioning civilization close to 3,000 years ago. I guess the only other things we have like it are the pyramids and I don't know, like the Easter island statues or something like that. But this is a, this is a functioning city that is being re. Sort of reemerged in your line of sight. And it is just the damnedest thing you've ever. You've ever. You've ever seen.

[Seth Mandel]

And it could very easily have not happened. Yes, that's the other thing. It is like, you know, one of the stories that I relate in the piece is that, you know, they were, they were doing some sort of excavation in this, like, I guess it was really probably just a parking lot. And they were doing some excavations because they knew some of the City of David stuff was underneath and they were trying to figure out how deep it went. And they were. And there was flooding because there was a storm and there was a drain got backed up and whatever. So they Couldn't dig. They couldn't do anything. Obviously with the ground saturated by water, you know, you can't take out ancient things in, you know, in a sort of swamp. And so they brought in crews to clear the, not just the water, but the mud, the debris, you know, all that stuff. And one of the guys on the architectural team is standing. They find him standing in front of a tractor essentially. And the tractor got the Israeli driving. The tractor is furious because he's like, I don't want to be here either, man, but, you know, get out of my way. And it looks like, you know, tank man, the scene. But what happened was the art, the, the, the archaeologist had seen that there was some limestone underneath where this guy was about to, you know, bulldoze or whatever under the mud. And that turned out to be a football field sized stepway into the ancient mikvah, the ritual bath that they used to immerse themselves before the temple.

[Oliver Darcy]

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[Oliver Darcy]

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[Oliver Darcy]

My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up.

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[John Podhoretz]

Right, yeah. The point is that this road that, that Seth is talking about, when, when ancient Hebrews had to go make their pilgrimage to the temple, which was on the Temple Mount in where people thought the City of David really was, they needed to purify themselves. And so it turned out that they had discovered that there was this road that is like 3/4 of a mile long, that was the pathway to the place where you went, cleaned yourself off so that you could then come and bring your offering to the grounds of the, of the ancient temple, thus proving that the ancient temple existed and that the city of David existed and that the rituals that are described in the Bible were being practiced by these peoples 3,000 years ago. And so, yeah, so that story, every. All of it connecting together is again, so it's one of the many, many, many reasons, if you have never been to Israel, that you should go to go to Israel, which is aside from, you know, like a country that everybody should support, is one of the great places on earth to see and to experience and to witness. Okay, so we have the battlefields. We have the battlefield of Gettysburg, and we have the. We have Fort Sumter, just ferry ride from Charleston. We have Barcelona, the city of history, where you can have a cup of coffee above an ancient mikveh. We have the city of David, where you can find the road to the ancient mikvah and even more ancient mikvah and Pompeii, which also has bath houses, but not mikvahs. And Francis Tavern. Or I guess, is it pronounced Francis? I don't know.

[Abe Greenwald]

I've never heard it pronounced France Francis, but. But it probably is. It should be pronounced Francis, but I don't know.

[John Podhoretz]

Yeah. Doesn't come up a lot here in New York City. That was a time.

[Seth Mandel]

It must be. It must be pronounced Francis because, you know, down there you have Houston instead of Houston street, and so everything is probably pronounced slightly off.

[John Podhoretz]

Fair enough. Yeah. Okay, so that's our show for today. We will be back tomorrow. For Seth, Abe and Matt, I'm John Podvorts. Keep the candle bur.