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- [00:01]
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- [01:31]
Abe Greenwald
Hope for the best.
- [01:36]
Matthew Continetti
Expect the worst. Some preacher pain, some diapers. No way of knowing which way it's going.
- [01:46]
Christine Rosen
Hope for the best.
- [01:48]
Matthew Continetti
Expect the worst.
- [01:52]
Abe Greenwald
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine daily Podcast. Today is Monday, May 5th. I'm commentaries executive Editor Editor Abe Greenwald. John Pothorz is unavailable to be with us today, but rest assured he will be back very shortly. He's. He's abroad, securing a deal for Canada, Greenland and God knows what else.
- [02:19]
Christine Rosen
The Panama Canal.
- [02:21]
Abe Greenwald
And the Panama Canal. Why not? Yeah. Joining me today, as you've heard, is senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute Institute and social commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi Christine.
- [02:35]
Christine Rosen
Hi Abe.
- [02:37]
Abe Greenwald
And Director of Domestic Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute and Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti. Hi Matt.
- [02:46]
Matthew Continetti
Hi Abe.
- [02:48]
Abe Greenwald
So bunch to discuss over the weekend. I think first thing we should get into is Donald Trump's wide ranging interview appearance on Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. I think what my immediate impression was one that I got before I even watched the show because there were endless clips. There was a sound bite that I think the show wanted very desperately and got and promoted. When asked about did he feel that he had to uphold the Constitution in terms of judge rulings on deportations, there was a somewhat decontextualized clip of him saying, I don't know, but that there's a lot more to get into from there. What'd you guys think about the interview?
- [03:53]
Matthew Continetti
Well, it was very long. It was 45 minutes on the show, and then there was an extra 18 minutes that they recorded. I'm not sure whether it was before the official interview or after in Mar a Lago. And it, because of its length, it covered a tremendous amount of ground. So you picked up on the quote that the left is highlighting from the discussion of deportations and Maryland man Kilmara Brago Garcia. That's an interesting part of the interview when you watch it in its totality, because Trump started getting very annoyed at having to answer these questions. And so he just kept kind of going back and reflexively saying, well, it's my lawyers. My lawyers are up to it. My lawyers are up to it. And then he would also say, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Talk to the lawyers. What I found interesting amidst this clip that, you know, is generating a lot of news among the resistance is that after he said to Kristen Walker, I don't know about this guy, basically is what he's saying, I don't know. He says, but we'll always obey the Supreme Court. And that is I think, maybe at least the sixth time, I think half a dozen times since his inauguration that Trump has said probably more that he will obey the Supreme Court. Now, there's an argument right now going on about Marilyn man, whether the administration is obeying the Supreme Court's order or judgment that the administration needs to facilitate the return of Garcia. But I kind of took it as here is Trump once again saying he's going to follow the Supreme Court. So take that with however much skepticism you would like. But he's said it once again on the record.
- [05:55]
Christine Rosen
I was struck by the constant, as Matt says, pushing it off to his lawyers. It reminded me again why one would never want to be Donald Trump's lawyer, because if anything, any mistakes are made, those people are going right under the bus. I was also, I thought it was notable that they were pressing him on the couple of times. He clearly was joking about a third term. And there are some hats being sold. You know, Donald Trump 2028, he completely put the kibosh on that. But in a very interesting way, he said, no, obviously, I've always thought I'd be a germer. But he mentioned both JD Vance and Marco Rubio as potential successors, which I think is just classic Trump. He, you know, he's already got the wrestling match sort of playing out in his mind, clearly, for his, the succession jockeying that will be going on. And they're also two very distinctive versions of, of the gop. So I found that fascinating. I was really struck. And I think there's a real push this week. We saw it in Scott Bessense, Wall Street Journal op ed this morning about the economy. The comments about how many pencils and dol American people's children should have. This is something I think a lot of people on the conservative side of the aisle have been saying, this is not the way you want to talk about what you're trying to do. Scott Benson's op ed, which I encourage everyone to read, I don't necessarily agree with the very rosy portrait he's painting about what they're trying to do because there are a lot of moving parts that all have to fall perfectly into place for it to happen. But that's what the message should be. It's like we have these places plans about tariffs, we have plans about deregulation, we have plans about tax cuts. And if we get all this done, the economy will shift and change. Trump telling people that five pencils and three dolls are enough is not the message that someone who used to give his child. And we have the pictures, everyone on social media has seen them of little Baron Trump and his, you know, mini Mercedes toy car with his named license plate and his large Fao Schwartz stuffed animals. Not the message you want to be sending even to your most devoted followers who are struggling economically.
- [07:54]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, it's a weird tact he's taking when he's faced with this question about whether or not prices are going to go up because of tariffs. And he keeps sort of raising the theoretical number of dolls that people were buying before he's. Instead of 56 dolls, you can, you can have two or three or, or four instead of 87 dolls. You know, I thought that was interesting. I mean, I think, you know, in one sense, I mean, you can, you can ding him for before he took that line saying, we're going to feel some pain. At least you could have said, well, he's actually kind of leveling with the public in some way about what he sees as a temporary speed bump on his tariff plan, that there will be a rise of prices. But this is a Very strange, I think, sort of route around it. And I would say, uncharacteristically, it doesn't work well for him that this particular line. And then she brought up baby strollers because he was saying, well, fuel prices are going down and that's, you know, gasoline is the big thing and that's going down. Why, why are you talking to me about the price of baby strollers? Which also kind of sounds a dissonant note from an administration that says they want to see a baby boom.
- [09:31]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, right. Yeah. No, the quote was, gasoline is a thousand times more important than a stroller somewhere. And, you know, in a certain sense, he's right. I mean, gasoline is a huge driver of inflation and you want energy costs low. And the feeling is, as Christine says in the Besson op ed, if you drive energy low, you not only get better growth, but it might compensate for some of the increases in price of some of these consumer goods that we have been importing from China. Just two things. To go back briefly to the 2028 question, I thought this was a very interesting response from Trump. He may have looked at some polling data or been told about some polling data that shows that the third term prospect is not popular among the public at large. There's certainly a segment of the population that would love it. But he also said that, you know, he said it may be impossible to do again. He kind of, his knowledge of the Constitution was kind of left outside the door before this interview. He was like, I don't know, but it seems like very hard to do. And then later in the conversation, it was clear that actually they've been talking a lot about it, you know, about the. He even said, oh, there's the vice presidential thing.
- [10:48]
Abe Greenwald
Right.
- [10:48]
Matthew Continetti
Which is the kind of the gambit that's been floated that he would run as the vice president and then whoever is elected the president would resign, making Trump president. Kind of a replay of what Putin and Medvedev did back in 08. So he's clearly thought about, but he says no, he says that it's not his plan. Okay, now I know a lot of Trump fans are going to read a lot into that comment. It's not his plan. Right. So there'll still be hope alive for the Trump 2028 crowd. But he said it's not his plan. He always just wanted to serve two terms. And then he says the successors. And I think, Christine, you're absolutely right. The first name he mentioned was not JD Vances. The first name he said was Marco. And we already know that Rubio is an ascent with this within this administration because he now has at least four jobs. That's at the last count. He is the Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, director of USAID, and the US National Archivist, all at once. Trump really likes him. So he mentions Marco and then he goes to JD and talks about JD Vance's talents as well. And again, Christine, you're absolutely right to say there are two different forms of maga. You know, it's interesting because both of them kind of caught the national conservatism bandwagon pretty early, and they both started pivoting in Trump's first term toward this new brand of conservatism, national conservatism, speaking at the National Conservative conferences, adopting a more industrial policy based economic policy, much more skeptical of traditional conservative free market economic policy. However, they have had differences on foreign policy. And while Rubio is very good at kind of changing his spots in order to make himself acceptable to whatever the dominant flavor of the Republican Party is at any given moment, there clearly are some differences between Rubio and Vance on foreign policy questions. So not only would that be, I think, a difference in any potential primary between the two of them, but it's also the case that they represent different kind of, as you said, flavors of maga, or definitely different geographic bases of MAGA and the gop.
- [13:13]
Abe Greenwald
Right.
- [13:13]
Matthew Continetti
When Marco Rubio, son of Cuban immigrants, the Florida based senator, where does Susie Wiles come from? The White House chief of staff. She comes from Florida. She is the queen, not only the ice Maiden, but she's the queen of Florida Republican politics, which is to say she's queen of Florida politics. And so he would be not only kind of looking at that working class message, but doing it from a more aspirational immigrant based background, which, by the way, was very important in the 2024 result. Then you have J.D. vance, right. The hillbilly elegy, Ohio, the Rust Belt, the states, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan. You know, Donald Trump is the only Republican to win those three states twice since Ronald Reagan. And they're going to be essential in any 2028 contest. They won't be as essential after the 2030 census, it looks like, but they'll be very essential there. So I thought that was one of the more fascinating segments. Just on the tariffs briefly, too. You know, Trump, it's an interesting dilemma for, for a lot of us who kind of, you know, learned standard economic theory, have a general sense of, you know, how people believe the economy works, going back to Adam Smith. And then, of course, A more free market approach. The idea that, you know, competition and increases in supplies is the way to lower prices. And low prices are good, right? Low prices are good because they make the ends of life more available to everyday people. Well, that's not how our President sees it. He does not have that view. He views trade deficits as losses. And so when he's discussing these China tariffs in particular the more the most important ones because, you know, we're essentially, as he said, we've gone cold turkey with China. There's no trade happening right now with China. He thinks that's a win because he says we're not giving them any more money. But of course what that leaves out is what we were getting in return for the money. And I know there's a whole group of people who think that we were getting junk, that we were getting just junk we don't need. But, but you know, there's a lot of junk and one person's junk is another person's HDTV in their bedroom. Right? Now the HDTVs mainly come from Korea, but the point still stands. So how you deal with the President, who has a completely different economic worldview, which is not a positive sum game worldview, is going to be the question for the next two and a half years, three and a half years, because he really is into this. And just this morning I woke up to a Trump truth saying that, well, you know, we're going to put a 100% tariff on foreign produced movies. Now, you know, if I'm the subtitle guy, if I'm the guy who's been making my living, you know, maybe I've been replaced by AI already, but if I'm the person doing the lettering on the subtitles or the translation, I'm going to be out of work. You know, their whole, like, what happens to New Line Cinema, if it's even still in business, right? They used to have all the foreign movies come in, 100% tariff. It's going to make it pretty hard to have any foreign movie business. Now I know there are plenty of people who say, what a snob for even me even thinking of this, but he thinks tariffs are the economic, you know, superweapon. And convincing him otherwise is a task that I think is close to impossible.
- [17:04]
Christine Rosen
Well, this is actually someplace where the future of MAGA is, is going to hang in the balance, not just on economic indicators. One of the other things he sort of glitched a bit on in that interview, I think was being unprepared for pointing out Very specifically where he thought the economy was still floundering because of Biden era policies and where he would see it going in a very positive direction. It was, well, the good stuff is me and the bad stuff was him. I mean, that's how his mind works. But you would think that he said explicitly. He said it very explicitly. I was like bad messaging.
- [17:39]
Matthew Continetti
Very simple.
- [17:40]
Christine Rosen
Yes, very simple. But also kind of like people go, huh? But the Rubio Vance thing strikes me as being fascinating on the economic policy as well, and on just the general sense of something we talk about a lot on the podcast, which is people, the, the normie voters, average desire to just see things work and without any partisan leaning one way or the other, just like fix things, make let's make the world work in a way that's sensible. And in that score, Rubio's Florida version of GOP Republicanism right now is a much more powerful message. Even though I think JD Vance rhetorically can dance circles around someone like Marco Rubio in a debate, he's much more rhetoric than fixing things. Now, he's done some stuff in his own community, I think, which is admirable with regard to opioid addiction and some nonprofit work he's done there, which is great. But in terms of solutions that are on the ground, Rubio comes from a state that is truly the model right now for conservative responses to policy issues. A lot of talk of abundance, a lot of, you know, hurricane comes through, we're going to rebuild that road within a week. I mean, just DeSantis has been the avatar for this. But Rubio as well in the Senate has had, had this ability to talk in this way. I think there will be a hunger for that after the chaos of four years of Trump, regardless of where the economy is. Again, calm, reasonable, less about rhetoric, less about culture war. Rubio is not as strong a culture warrior as Vance. So I don't. We'll see where people's tempers are with that. But Trump's got to get better about talking about what he means with regard to short term suffering for long term gain. Because right now those ships that are not coming from China, the ports are starting to look a little sparse. We're not going to feel that for a few more months. But there will be shortages, there will be price increases and there are from the Chamber of Commerce, we hear this week has come to Trump and begged for some exceptions on some of these tariffs for smaller businesses, businesses that have one or two items that they are absolutely required to get from a place like China and they will go bankrupt without it. The ability to have some relief there. So we'll see how those workarounds work. But I'm not I was not buying what he was selling in that interview, even though I thought besides way of laying it out was pretty interesting. But every single point's got to work. And then we shouldn't even talk about what they're doing in Congress right now.
- [19:59]
John Podhoretz
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- [23:11]
Christine Rosen
A couple of.
- [23:11]
Abe Greenwald
Things, I think on the Rubio Vance point, what leapt out to me about in terms of why he sort of led with Marco, by the way, just the friendly Marco. Right. And then went to J.D. vance, more formal. But why Marco was first, I think I'm looking at it psychologically with Trump. And Rubio has simply been a good foot soldier for Trump policy this whole time, whereas Vance has sort of gotten out ahead of things, been his own man to some degree. Not which is not to say he's veered from or conflicted with Trump policy, but he's already trying to sort of cut his own path. And I feel, as I've always felt, that Trump, when he's in proximity to someone like that, wants to keep him in a lane, wants to keep him, doesn't want to give him too much room to do his own thing. So I thought that was why he was sort of not pushing Rubio but, well, clearly keeping him. Yeah, yeah. Making him a real contender there. Yeah.
- [24:29]
Matthew Continetti
Because, you know, you have to just briefly on this before you get to your second point, but you have to have suspense. And so, you know, this is two things. One, it's Trump as always being a commentator as well as an agent. Right. So he's not just the president. He is like the world's most famous and popular pundit because he's constantly commenting on his own office. And so here he is like sizing up what who he thinks are the two contenders for the 2028 nomination. And he even went on to say, you know, he goes, well, you know, vice president, you know, having a vice president after four good years, that puts you in a pretty strong position. Meaning that yeah, Vance does have the inside track, there's no question about it. But on the other hand, even Trump goes, maybe he'll be challenged, maybe he'll be primary. He wants to keep it very open. Why? One, it gives him maximum leverage. Because of course, the 2028 nominee will depend on Donald Trump's endorsement. And two, he likes the contest. This is a man who for 16 some years was on television leading a reality television show contest. The 2028 GOP nomination sans Trump, if, if that's what happens, will be a contest for Trump's endorsement. One other advantage that Vance has, I think that we should point out, I mean, other than incumbency, other than VP, other than he's leading all the 20 early 2028 polls, is he has the backing of Trump's key MAGA personalities. You know, people like Don Jr. People like Tucker Carlson, people like Charlie Kirk. Right. They are definitely more on the J.D. vance side of these economic and foreign policy questions, or certainly the foreign policy question than they are on Rubio. Rubio still carries some suspicion in maga, but not, but not among Trump. So sorry to interrupt, Dave.
- [26:33]
Abe Greenwald
Oh, no, no, not at all. And you know, and in fairness, it still is extraordinarily early.
- [26:41]
Matthew Continetti
Right, yeah.
- [26:41]
Abe Greenwald
To talk about, I mean, so, so were he to go all the way with one or the other or anyone else, you know, as, as a successor at this, at this moment would be Reagan.
- [26:53]
Matthew Continetti
Reagan waited quite a while to endorse George H.W. bush in 1988. And so I expect that Trump will drag this out for as long as possible in order to see just who is the strongest horse in the years ahead. Yeah.
- [27:10]
Abe Greenwald
And you know, even though the question was is there a MAGA movement without you? And even though he said yes, I think, of course, yeah, I'm sure it's not something he's dying to contemplate altogether on his messaging about the tariffs. It's a very strange thing he's doing because he's sort of speaking against abundance, you know, for Americans, which coming from a guy who has been sort of emblematic of American abundance, it's really discordant. And you know, up till this point, Trump certainly has this unbelievable connection with working class people that I think has always been quite sincere and legitimate. I don't know how this reads when you have this guy, this gazillionaire, saying you don't need all the junk you're getting, your kids don't need all those toys.
- [28:21]
Christine Rosen
See, for me, it's the kids thing, because it's one thing his connection to the working class voter, which I think you're correct, highlight was very much about him saying, it's good to be aspirational. Look at my gilded, you know, toilet. Look at my crazy high rises at all my Properties. And I look at my name on everything. You too could own Trump Stakes one day with your own name on a, on a steak company or whatever it is that would, that's aspirational because that's in, that speaks to abundance. Right now we've got some rather savvy characters on the left trying to co opt abundance for the left again. And his message, weirdly to me, sounds a lot like the extreme environmentalists who are like, you actually do not need two cars and an extra, you know, a third bedroom in your house. You should be living smaller. Smaller carbon footprint. Now, that's not the motivation for him saying it. He's just trying to sort of prepare people for, for maybe having slightly empty store shelves. But austerity is not his game. When he starts talking about people's children. The whole point of maga, make America great again. Let's, let's allow people to work, live off of one income and have a mom at home. And, you know, all this sort of weird nostalgia that they often traffic in, that is the opposite of what he's saying when he's like five pencils and two dolls and you better be happy about it. This is not a good message. It's just not. And when he starts talking about what people should want for their children, he sounds to me like someone from the left, not the right.
- [29:43]
Matthew Continetti
Well, that happens a lot in maga. Right. But, you know, I don't want President Trump to see my, my pen mug here on my desk, which is filled with my favorite Bic pens, because there'd be far too many. And I'm hoarding them now, much like many businesses getting in those imports before Liberation Day.
- [29:59]
John Podhoretz
Right.
- [29:59]
Matthew Continetti
Affecting our GDP report. I think the question is, what will the results of this economic policy be? And the, the idea for Trump, of course, is he's not looking necessarily at the stock market as a metric. I mean, at least not when it's going down. He's much more interested in job growth. Right. And that's where, that's where working class people are interested. They want jobs. And he's looking at direct investment, foreign, direct investment in the United States, companies saying that they're going to build things here, open factories here. Those seemed, those seem to me to be more important in his imagination than the stock market this time around and the GDP number. So if you continue to have job growth, if you continue to have these companies from overseas saying we're going to, in order to avoid the tariffs, we're going to build here, he'll tout that as success. As a success. In addition, the lower inflation rate, even if some items go up. But that might not happen. And as Christine said, we're kind of in this point where we're anticipating a lack of these container ships coming into US Ports. Very similar, as Neil Ferguson has pointed out many times to what happened during the COVID 19 pandemic in 2020. Now, our economy survived that and the question will probably be able to survive this, but that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a lot of pain.
- [31:28]
Christine Rosen
Well, and this was self inflicted. That's the difference. Like people suffered through COVID 19. Look, I hoarded toilet paper in my neighborhood with everybody else. We all sort of had this co op of paper products because our shelves were bare. But that didn't feel like anyone's choice. It was a, we are dealing with this together. This was cell phone. Like if this happens and people start to get angry, it's him.
- [31:48]
Matthew Continetti
If they get angry at him. Right. And so then the question is, what does he do? And I think what's happened in the White House? And of course, as I say this, everything will change. But going into Liberation Day. And in the week after, it was clear that Trump had been buoyed by the advice of kind of the protectionist die hard Peter Navarro and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. And so it was like, no, this is what we're going to do. Even as the stock market was declining, as bond, bond yields were rising, meaning bond prices were falling, as gold was going up and the US Dollar was going down. And we were on the verge of having a financial event that would have required Federal Reserve intervention. We don't want that.
- [32:44]
Abe Greenwald
Right?
- [32:45]
Matthew Continetti
Then suddenly he stopped. Suddenly he paused. The reciprocal tariffs on every country but China. Then we had this news that there were certain exemptions from Chinese imports, mainly related to tech and the iPhone. We've had other kind of promises made to the auto companies now to the small businesses. As you were saying, Christine, with the Chamber of Commerce saying, hey, can you give us some relief? And so what the. And we've had this constant message from the White House saying we're working on the deals. You know, is it 60 deals? Is it 70 deals? Is it the 200 deals? In Trump's mind that he mentioned in an interview last week, it looks like we're definitely close to a deal with India and maybe South Korea as well. And then there's also Japan. And so what's happened? Well, the markets have rallied, right? And Trump was able actually to brag about Some of the market runs, and we're almost to the point where the markets have recovered from Liberation Day. He needs to keep that going. And so we're going to have this period where he's kind of going to be playing this game where he's saying, well, here's a deal here, right? You know, look at this. And that gets people's confidence up, or, oh, China's ready to come to the table. See? And that gets people's confidence up, and we have to watch. How long can he keep this up? Until the markets decide, oh, maybe these tariffs aren't going away. Maybe he is serious, and if that happens, we might find ourselves in a position like we were in early April.
- [34:24]
Abe Greenwald
I want to move on to another part of the interview that I thought was interesting, actually. Part where I sort of wanted to jump in and answer on his behalf.
- [34:33]
Matthew Continetti
But.
- [34:35]
Abe Greenwald
When Kristen Welker started asking him about authoritarianism and do you believe she said that dissent is an important part of democracy? Right. And he said, yes. Well, he said. He said, it's a part of it. It's a part of democracy. It's true. Right? Yeah. And what I wanted to jump in on his behalf and say was, where were you the past four years with that question when you had an administration that was squelching dissenting opinions on social media platforms and wherever else about COVID origins and that, compiling information on disinformation and misinformation vectors? How about having asked the previous president if he thinks that dissent is an important part of democracy? And, you know, so generally speaking, I mean, a sort of big takeaway here is like, wow, we are not in the land of Joe and Kamala anymore. This is where the president gets like, you know, they pull out the quotes, they face him down. The press is out for blood now all over again.
- [36:08]
Christine Rosen
Well, he also missed an opportunity there. I was frustrated with that response as well, because he could have pivoted and talked about something where, again, he's got the public's support, which is ideological conformity on college campuses, ideological conformity in the media. I mean, actually, he. He tends to go a little off the reservation whenever he starts talking about the media. But he could have said, look, you haven't. He should have said what you did say, Abe. He should have said, for four years, you guys didn't do your job. Now you're awake again and doing your job. And here I am subjecting myself to your constant barrage of questions. Although there is. That's another tension in MAGA world right now. There's the younger MAGA types are often sort of appalled that he'll even go on these mainstream outlets as if, why would you waste your time? You know, they're unfair. Why would you do this? They forget. This is where I think Trump is deeply, deeply still a boomer. He kind of still wants to swim in that pool and have some approval from the people who are lifeguarding that pool. So that I think is an interesting tension as well. But he could have said on in any number of cultural arenas, the ideological conformity around Covid Post, George Floyd, around race, about identity politics in general, about LGBTQ issues. All of these things have led to, I think, a strong sense among again the normie voter that the country went too far in one direction and he was seen as an extreme but necessary corrective to that. He's very bad at articulating that. I'm not sure. Maybe it's his self endorsement.
- [37:34]
Abe Greenwald
You're so right. I mean he could have said MAGA is at the vanguard of dissent. That's what this is all about. It's about breaking away from, from the sort of official story that we have been locked into this whole time.
- [37:51]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, it's a very particular form of dissent that the media likes and it's mainly anti American and anti Semitic dissent. That's the one. Well, yeah, I feel the way about the foreign students spouting Hamas opinions and engaging in Hamas activism like the President does about pencils. You know, it's like three is enough. We have three students engaged in this anti Semitic behavior that from other countries. Fine, that's enough. You don't need. You don't need five. Mahmoud Khalils. You don't need five. Okay, that might be a good bridge to talk about the foreign policy aspects of the interview. Again, I think the one I zeroed in on was the discussion of Iran. And it speaks to again that kind of division we all recognize within the administration between the folks like J.D. vance who want a nuclear agreement with Iran, that even if it means that they can continue enriching uranium, and then the other camp in the administration represented by Marco Rubio, who went on Sean Hannity last week and said any agreement with Iran should have no enrichment, there should not be any enrichment. And what did President Trump said? Well, he went even further than Rubio. He said they should not have any nuclear program. He was very strong on this, as he has been since 2015 when he entered politics and Republican presidential race. He said, I don't see any reason why the Iranians need a nuclear program. They're sitting on all of this energy, oil and gas, and with, you know, the civilian nuclear program, as he even said it goes, usually turns into a military program. So he acknowledged, again, these interviews are so interesting because if you listen very carefully to Trump, which most people do not, you get a sense of who he's talking to and what the debates are around him. So he even said, you know, there's some people who say civilian, who say no enrichment. And you know, that's a discussion that we're having. And then he then reverts back, but I don't want any, I don't think they should have any. And so this, for the group of people within MAGA and within the administration who are aligned with the Koch network, who are aligned with the kind of neo isolationists within maga, this was not good for them because you have now the President on record saying, no, there should be no Iranian nuclear program. At the same time we had Trump mentioning how he has reinstated maximum pressure, how last week he introduced secondary sanctions. He did that via Truth. I haven't seen any executive order on it yet. But he, he bragged about it. He said, look, this is what I'm doing, secondary sanctions on people who buy Iranian oil and gas, which is aimed also China because they're, they're Iran's main customer. And, and then he, he's saying, you know, this type of economic leverage is meant to free force the Iranians to a deal. While the planned round of discussions for this past weekend were canceled or were Americans saying they were never scheduled, the Iranians saying they were delayed. So we're in this moment where Trump is definitely siding with the group that wants to have a tough deal with Iran. And if there is no deal with Iran, as Trump told Time magazine last week, then America will be at the forefront of ending the Iranian nuclear program, not leading from behind and not, as he said, we're not going to let Israel drag us into anything because we're with them and we're in fact leading the campaign against the Iranian nuclear program.
- [41:40]
Christine Rosen
Well, in two other data points on Iran which did not come up in his interview, correct me if I'm wrong, the UK over the weekend disrupted an Iranian terrorist cell that was planning an attack in the uk a terrorist attack. And then obviously the, the Houthis, the Iran backed Houthis got a missile through that hit right near Ben Gurion Airport. So in Israel. So these two things are a reminder that this isn't just a problem of us negotiating with, with Iran, but of Iran's terrorist network. And I do wish I'd heard a little bit more from Trump on that, because this is actually, for those of us who have already seen Iran for what it is, the concern is whether or not the American people understand the terrorist network and the threat it poses, not just to our allies like Israel UK but on the home front.
- [42:28]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah. Maybe we should use that opportunity to switch to the story about the Houthi missile that landed near the main terminal at Ben Gurion. The Houthis have been firing missiles at Israel ever since this concerted US Effort to ramp up military actions against them. And there's a lot of. I mean, I'm not sure what to make about the fact that this one got through. The Israelis are saying there's this sort of technical glitch. Right?
- [43:09]
Christine Rosen
Right. They get about 95% of them are knocked out before they come into the airspace. Right?
- [43:14]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Matthew Continetti
Because it went through two systems. It went through the Iron Dome and then it went through US Thaad system. And they, of course, had warnings because it's quite a distance from Yemen to Israel. And so there were multiple injured, but there were no fatalities as a result. And the fact that it was aimed at Ben Gurion Airport, of course, is a dagger aimed at international travel to Israel, to the Israeli economy, to civilians. Right. I mean, there, these are civilian aircraft that are landing and taking off. A very dangerous moment. You know, we'll recommend the emergency episode that Dan Senor recorded on his Call Me Back podcast about this. This is a lesson, I think, as Nadav I all pointed out, of how the Houthi problem has metastasized over the past decade. You know, this was these. This militia had been in a civil war in Yemen. And then the Obama administration and some Republicans had pressured the end of that war based on humanitarian concerns. Right. Basically allowing the Houthis the space to consolidate power within their part of Yemen and also getting the Saudis to limit their involvement in the anti Houthi campaign. Then when Biden comes in, he lifted the fto, the foreign terrorist organization designation, on the Houthis as part of his general reset of American policy in the Middle east aimed at securing, oh, an Iran nuclear deal. And then after October 7th, of course, the Houthis began a new campaign of firing at international shipping in the Red Sea and also firing drones and missiles at Israel. This has been a long standing problem that has been allowed to fester, just like other Iranian proxies in the region. And while the United States has been engaged in this offensive campaign against the Houthis we're no longer just simply trying to knock out the the actual launchers that would fire against us, but we're engaged in a much broader campaign against the Houthis that seems to have some effects, but it's very difficult to root them out because the desert is so vast, because some of these launchers are mobile. And then that gets to the, you know, the heart of the issue, which is that the way to weaken the Houthis is to weaken their patron, Iran. And as long as Iran is still able to support them, and if Iran has an opportunity of sanctions relief in order to make more money to fund to the Houthis, this issue is not going to go away. So we await the Israeli response, which the Israelis have said they would coordinate with the United States. I heard coming in today to record the podcast that the United States actually hit some Houthi targets again last night, the evening of May 4th. But this is a long running challenge that is not going to disappear until the Iranian regime disappears.
- [46:47]
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- [51:03]
Abe Greenwald
I'm getting concerned about the US Military effort against the Houthis here because it's got to be something more, a lot more than sending a signal. Right? I mean, this is, this is not a group that's going to back down because of a warning. And the fact that they got this missile through concerns me. And we also lost a jet fighter. The US did, off a carrier that had to turn. Yeah. So I'm like, I hope we know what we're doing over there. I hope we're being effective. I mean, it was heartening that the administration that the the hawks won out on the question itself about going after the Houthis here. But there may need to be some sort of change in approach. That is my concern about what's going on.
- [52:07]
Matthew Continetti
Well, air power has limits, and I think what's necessary is to rent an army, which, as Stephen Cochin likes to say, is the way that America has been very successful in these types of Eurasian conflicts, as we rent an army. And I think that's why maybe President Trump is among the reasons he's going to the region next week is to say, oh, maybe there are certain ways in which we can increase the pressure on the Houthis through land ground forces. Not our own. Not our own. But among the enemies of the Houthis, which are several in the region, I.
- [52:45]
Abe Greenwald
Mean, I have to think that the immediate or the subsequent Israeli response is going to be big because, I mean, God forbid, had that missile actually hit the terminal of Ben Gurion, this would have been an unspeakable.
- [53:09]
Christine Rosen
But Israel right now is also calling up reservists again to prepare to go back into Gaza. So they all they have, you know, and to end Hamas, as Netanyahu stated very clearly, get the rest of the hostages out if possible. So that's another, you know, again, to have to fracture their attention without. This is actually where American commitment is important. And again, I know I often harp on messaging and I get angry emails from people saying, you just shouldn't tell Trump how to speak. But it does matter here that he connect the dots for the American people, because there is a real isolationist impulse right now abroad in the land, and there's always been a little bit of isolationism among Americans. But seeing this as a global terrorist network and understanding that it's not just that they are funding people who are sending rockets over to Israel or funding terrorist cells in London, but that they're funding terrorist cells on the homeland as well. And we know this to be true. We have actually, you know, during the previous administration, there were some people coming across the border, and occasionally you'd see a story about them being, you know, caught. That means many more got through. Not to fear monger, not to sound paranoid, but to say, look, we have enemies and our enemies are always trying to attack us both within and without. So here's our strategy for defeating them. George W. Bush was very good at that post 9 11. And it was necessary for the American people to be told that again and again. We haven't heard that message for a very long time. We've been extremely fortunate to have very Few terrorist attacks on the homeland. But this is where the Iran piece of the puzzle should fit for Americans who may not want to fight foreign wars. I get that. But who must understand war will be brought to us if we don't eliminate the people who are trying to sponsor it abroad.
- [54:51]
Matthew Continetti
They want to kill Trump.
- [54:52]
Abe Greenwald
Yes.
- [54:52]
Matthew Continetti
I think it's pretty. I mean, how can you be MAGA and think that these are people that we could make a deal with? They want. We know they're trying to kill Trump.
- [55:04]
Abe Greenwald
I think we should move on to.
- [55:07]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, Fetterman.
- [55:09]
Abe Greenwald
Fetterman, big hit piece in the New Yorker.
- [55:12]
Matthew Continetti
New York.
- [55:14]
Abe Greenwald
Oh, it was New York.
- [55:15]
Christine Rosen
And lots of follow up in the other media like the time.
- [55:21]
Abe Greenwald
My takeaway is you don't want, you don't want to get in a car with John Fetterman. His dry, his driving has become very aggressive and erratic. But of course it turns out that he was always an aggressive driver who has incurred many speeding tickets and had accidents and whatnot.
- [55:41]
Matthew Continetti
My takeaway is you don't want to hire this guy, Adam Gentleson, that's for sure. Who was the former Harry Reid aide who then joined Fetterman and then basically spilled Fetterman's medical history to the New York magazine. I mean, this is an. I mean, I don't know, there's this thing called hipaa. You know, I was going to say.
- [56:02]
Christine Rosen
He might have violated federal privacy law.
- [56:04]
Matthew Continetti
But the doctors were on the record, too. It's like, you know, I'm just going to make a list of these names of the doctors because I'm not sure I, I would trust them if I go the. Oh, another, another thing about Continenti's condition. You know, I'm not sure I'd want that in the pages of New York magazine. What's going on here? I mean, you know what I was thinking when I was reading this long piece that you can read in a New York magazine? A lot of the things that folks like Gentleson were saying and the doctors quoted were saying was similar to the stuff we were saying on the commentary podcast in the spring and summer of 2023, when Federman did go to Walter Reed for months at a time, and when it was clear just by observing him, that there was something very off with his behavior. Now, amazingly, at that time, there were no such exposes of Federman printed in places like New York magazine. What changed? Well, this, this thing called October 7th, when Hamas killed 1200 Israelis and wounded and raped and many more and then spirited away hundreds of hostages into Gaza. What happened well, Fetterman, who had been pro Israel, really took on a new identity as Israel's foremost advocate in the Democratic Party. And he then was kind of almost. He became emboldened because of his new support for Israel to question the Democratic Party on a variety of issues, mainly immigration, crime. He then going to Mar a Lago after the 2024 election to meet with President Elect, then President Elect Trump. And now we have this hit piece. And so the sides have totally changed. And here I am. You know, I love John Fetterman. I think he's amazing. Don't agree with him on social issues, for example, but, you know, for me, his. His stance on Israel is very important. And the more typical Democrats who thought that he was the next iteration of the Bernie Sanders phenomenon back in 2022, they're the ones who are saying he shouldn't be a senator because of his health condition.
- [58:25]
Abe Greenwald
And I mean, the absurdity is that after he first suffered his stroke, he was so much more obviously out of it than he is now. And that was when you were not permitted to mention it. That's when he was just fine.
- [58:48]
Matthew Continetti
During the Senate race.
- [58:49]
Abe Greenwald
Yes.
- [58:50]
Matthew Continetti
During that debate with Oz.
- [58:51]
Christine Rosen
Yeah, it just has all the hallmarks of a classic ideological purge because none of this would be distinctive and no hit piece necessary if there were still pro Israel Democrats who were willing to stand up and say so in the Democratic Party. There aren't. There are so few that the one who does is going to have a target on his back from the ideological left who wants to see they are trying to slowly eliminate Democratic politicians who are pro Israel. It's why Josh Shapiro, as governor, is. Is very hesitant about saying too many things that might sound too pro Israel or, or, you know, acknowledge anti Semitism because, oh, that's going to anger his base. Look, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was in a town hall recently in her district, and she was heckled. She was called a genocide. You know, this is how extreme that wing, that very loud, very angry wing of the Democratic Party has become. I was also. I also found it strange that it seems his wife cooperated with this piece in a way that was extremely disturbing to me.
- [59:45]
Matthew Continetti
This.
- [59:45]
Christine Rosen
I mean, if your husband has suffered a series of medical and mental health setbacks over the last few years, you would think your role would be to protect him from, you know, angry reporters and ex staffers. But she. She really did seem to be.
- [59:58]
Matthew Continetti
Frankly, she is not a supporter of Israel. No, it became clear in the piece.
- [60:02]
Christine Rosen
That was really shocking. That was the shocking part for me is that, I mean, look, the political spouse is a troublesome role for lots of, particularly for women. But that was, I think, rather alarming to read.
- [60:15]
Matthew Continetti
And, you know, the bottom line though, which you finally get to at the very end of this many thousands word piece, is, you know, John Fetterman's popularity has gone up. He is more popular than ever as he has embraced his support for Israel, as he has questioned the Democratic Party's social and green agenda, the most unpopular parts. He is popular and this is driving the left crazy to the extent that they are spilling all of these personal information about health and blood tests. And I mean, you learn so much Jack down Fetterman in the course of this piece. All to destroy reputation. You know, it is a classic example of what Rush Limbaugh used to call the drive by media.
- [61:06]
Abe Greenwald
And it's full of ridiculous, unfounded speculation too. Right. It's like, well, you know, his doctors said, gave some warning signs about if he's slipping back into depression or, or something, you know, and, and I see this warning sign and that warning sign, who are you? You know, and also, you know, the idea that his condition has somehow made him pathologically pro Israel is, it's an offensive concept in and of itself. Yeah, yeah, right.
- [61:49]
Matthew Continetti
But that's great.
- [61:50]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah. But it's also not true. I mean, Fetterman has, has a record of being pro Israel pre stroke, pre October, October 7th, certainly. Yeah, yeah.
- [62:02]
Matthew Continetti
You're unfortunately, sir, we diagnose you with pro Israel sentiment.
- [62:07]
Abe Greenwald
Right.
- [62:07]
Matthew Continetti
So this, remember that this was an NPR for the next three days.
- [62:13]
Christine Rosen
This was the classic trope, though, for years, if you were conservative, there would be these social scientists who every few years would come out with a study about how mental illness or authoritarian tendencies are much more likely if you vote Republican. I mean, this is a, this is a common academic trope. I would add one other thing about the media's role here, which was fascinating to me. And I've seen it, certainly we've seen it with stories about immigration, but even on sort of more minor cultural stories, I've been struck, having talked to lots of, you know, anti Trump friends who are very angry about the, a lot of what Trump is doing. Someone said to me, well, Trump has banned all LGBTQ people from Kenneth, the Kennedy center for Pride Month. And I was like, I don't think that's true. I said, I think a lot of pride groups protesting Trump installing himself have, have withdrawn from performing or having events there. I was like, which is different than him expelling them. But there is now this real tension with the resistance. Is it a resistance? How does it resist the, the shock and awe number of things coming out of the Trump White House in the first hundred days has left them reeling. And the media is having a real struggle with identifying real challenges. And I do think some of the due process Supreme Court and lower court cases are a real challenge if you're a conservative who believes in the rule of law with some of what Trump is doing. We've discussed that on the podcast. But some of the other stuff is just an overreaction that then the media reports as Trump policy. And this bothers me because especially with immigration. But even on this cultural stuff, he's not banning LGBTQ act from the Kennedy Center. They're withdrawing voluntarily. And then they're pointing to him and saying, we had to do this because we feel threatened. That's not playing in the same way it used to with the public, in my opinion. I think a lot of people look at that and go, you're having a tantrum. You're allowed to protest, but let's look at what he's actually doing. That's what matters. And I think in these cultural arenas, we have to sort of stay on top of that. You have to read four or five news stories from a wide range of ideologies outlets before you actually get the facts straight. And we should all do that because I've seen story after story, the initial report turns out to be wildly wrong.
- [64:18]
Abe Greenwald
You know, just to jump back to the Kristen Welker interview before we wrap up, and I know, Matt, you have a recommendation, but something that was also really telling about the interview was, okay, where is the establishment media choosing to attack him? Right? What, what are they going after here? I like when they raise the, the question of a military parade. You, you, you would like to have.
- [64:50]
Matthew Continetti
A, on your, on your birthday?
- [64:52]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:52]
Matthew Continetti
For your birthday.
- [64:53]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [64:54]
Christine Rosen
Essentially saying record is a stupid idea and he shouldn't do it. I'm just saying, not just because I live here and it's going to disrupt traffic, but also, like, don't do that anyway. I just, I don't like that.
- [65:04]
Abe Greenwald
Well, I, I, I pro parade.
- [65:06]
Matthew Continetti
Well, he wanted to parade forever. He had like a mini thing in 2019 or 2020. I forget when it was just at the mall. But I'm pro parade and they put it on Flag Day. As he said, it does happen to be his birthday. Okay. But yeah, this is where they went.
- [65:23]
Abe Greenwald
I'm generally, I have to say, anti Parade, but I'm pro military parade. Bring out the missiles, bring out the tanks.
- [65:34]
Matthew Continetti
Well, there's this. What, this. Before I get to my recommendation, you know, he is in his, you know, he's waxing strong. This is, this is Trump, you know, so he's in his renaming mode. And we already have, we have the Gulf of America, but now we have Victory Days. And they also, he also brought this up with Kristen Welker, is that, you know, we don't, we don't really mark the victory over the Axis in World War II in the United States like other countries do. And so he, he became aware of this or was reminded of it last week, and he said, you know, we're going to start doing it. And so we're going to have Victory Day for World War II, which he puts on, I think, May 8, which is VE Day, victory in Europe Day, which is interesting in its own right, because, you know, for the United States, that didn't end the war until August. Right. I mean, and that's actually where most American casualties came from, was the Pacific Theater. But he wants, I think, because he's, you know, thinking about what the French and what Russia does on that day. He wants an equivalent. But he said no parade that day. It's just going to be victory. And then we're going to Victory Day for World War I, which will be, I think, our veterans.
- [66:54]
Christine Rosen
Yeah, he wants to take over Veterans Day with that. Another error should not do that.
- [66:59]
Matthew Continetti
So I think that would be. But then he went back, he said, no, these. And then she goes, are they going to be national holidays? He said, no, no, no, we, there were not going to be national holidays because, you know, pretty soon we wouldn't have any days to work left because we're filling up with all these. So it's this kind of, okay, we're doing this. It's, you know, he, he likes it. This is going to happen. You know, I think the renaming thing is the one thing that maybe people do start scratching their heads. It's like the Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of America. Okay. I will notice, I will note, though, when he mentioned the Gulf of America during his University of Alabama commencement address, which I also watched over the weekend, the crowd did like that, even though it's not very popular, according to these polls, the crowd did like Gulf of America. So maybe they'll have the same response to Victory, our victory days.
- [67:50]
Abe Greenwald
I just have to say, not to attack him for this, but his penchant for speaking things into existence, renaming things, sort of speaks to A kind of God complex.
- [68:06]
Matthew Continetti
Well, Chris Caldwell wrote a great piece about how it's actually very woke. Right.
- [68:11]
Abe Greenwald
That's for sure.
- [68:11]
Matthew Continetti
Woke was all about renaming stuff. And Trump is back because of the public rejection of Wokeism. And so this Chris was pointing out.
- [68:21]
Christine Rosen
He said his hands off Veterans Day. That's all I'm saying.
- [68:24]
Matthew Continetti
You know, you don't, you know, these new things, the new. It makes it for a very confusing moment. But yeah. Abe, I will make a quick recommendation. Over the weekend I watched rewatched one of my favorite films, the 1992 movie Sneakers starring Robert Redford and Ben Kingsley and Sidney Poitier and David Straight there and Dan aykroyd and Mary McDonnell. Just an all star cast in a beautiful 4k print which was the occasion for my rewatch. Sneakers is about Robert Redford plays a kind of 60s radical who escapes capture and imprisonment in 1969 and then founds a business of kind of also, you know, people with sketchy backgrounds who basically break into businesses in order to expose their weaknesses to the businesses. Right. So they do it for pay and everything. They get caught up in this basically hunt for this black box which a cryptographer has created that would basically erase all codes, or rather unlock all codes, decode everything. It's a really interesting piece. It came out in 1992. You know, so at the end of the Cold War, there's references to the New World Order. There's, there's a very good character actor who plays a Soviet or former Soviet cultural attache who's caught up and it's about, you know, U.S. relationship with Russia. It does feature a cameo by the great James Earl Jones. The thing about this movie is it's quick, just a great story. It's beautifully shot, which you can appreciate in the 4K print. It's set in San Francisco, which is just really one of the best places to set a movie, I have to say. And then the other thing to say.
- [70:23]
Abe Greenwald
If not to live.
- [70:24]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, if not to live. No, no, but, but just as a location, it's great. And maybe this is advice to the entertainment community who listens to the podcast because of course with the new tariff, you're going to want to make the movies in the United States. Make, make some more movies in San Francisco. The final thing to say about it is it would never be made today because it's this, it's, you know, it's just this 90, maybe 100 minutes long adult film. You know, adult in the sense that it's mentally, intellectually for adults, not like It's a porno. But it's. It's an. But it's made for an adult audience that is a mature, sensible audience who's interested in good story and acting. And it is completely original, which means it would have. It has no place in today's Hollywood. So that's another reason to watch Sneakers, which I may have recommended before. It is one of my favorite.
- [71:18]
Abe Greenwald
I don't think you did.
- [71:19]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah, well.
- [71:20]
Abe Greenwald
But I. I agree. It's funny. I remember seeing Sneakers in the theater. And I agree with you, it would never be made today. And I recently had this conversation with John because I feel like we are sort of. The thing about Sneakers is it's got a novel premise, you know?
- [71:37]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah.
- [71:37]
Abe Greenwald
And I feel like we are locked in the kind of premise jail. Now, in terms of movies, Right. It's either ip.
- [71:45]
Matthew Continetti
Yeah.
- [71:45]
Abe Greenwald
It's either like a couple or friends are going away somewhere that turns into a nightmare and there are 50,000 versions of that movie. Or there's the guy or the woman who has ninja like abilities, but. But has been keeping them in hiding for a few decades until something happens. And then there's. There's a revenge movie, and then we have a hundred of those movies, but. And there's like no room for these, you know, sort of just novel ideas. Sneakers and wickets. All right, well, that wraps it up. So for Matt, Christine, and the absent John, I'm Abe Greenwald. Keep the candle bur.