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- [00:00]
John Podhoretz
Hey, it's John. I want to talk to you about Shopify. A lot of people talk to me about starting podcasts. This podcast is 10 years old. It's in a different place from a lot of podcasts because we're obviously part of a nonprofit institution and it's not a way that we are seeking to earn our livelihoods. But a lot of people look at this and say this is something I can really do to create a business and run the business and do it in a really comfortable, practical and serious way. Gotta wear a lot of different hats when you start your own business. Can be very intimidating. But one of the things that I know from a lot of people is that if your to do list is growing and growing and growing and that list starts to overrun your life, you need a tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything that can be a game changer for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names to brands. Just getting started. You get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. You can accelerate your content creation because it's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. You get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into Kaching. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com commentary go to shopify.com commentary that's shopify.com commentary hope for the.
- [02:23]
Seth Mandel
Expect a worse Some preacher.
- [02:25]
Matthew Continetti
Pain Some die of thirst no way of knowing this way it's going Hope for the best expect the worst.
- [02:38]
John Podhoretz
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast. Today is Wednesday, August 13, 2025. I am John Pot Horitz, the editor of Commentary Magazine and I want to talk to you before we get going about my late sister Rachel's alma mater, St. John's College. What kind of education does a free society require? At St. John's College, students study the great books of Western civilization where they learn to think independently, hear others perspectives and understand the foundations of democratic society. It's an education for citizens, thought leaders and and those who will carry forward the best of the American tradition. Our BA Is equivalent to a double major in philosophy and the history of math and science, and a double minor in literature and classical studies. It's demanding. It's not for everyone. It might be just right for your child. Learn more at sjc.edu. and joining me today, as ever, executive editor Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.
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Abe Greenwald
Hi, John.
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John Podhoretz
Senior editor Seth Mandel. Hi, Seth.
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Seth Mandel
Hi, John.
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John Podhoretz
And Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.
- [03:52]
Unnamed Speaker
Hi, John.
- [03:53]
John Podhoretz
We have said not much about the coming summit on Friday in Anchorage between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, which has now been downgraded from a summit by the White House's press secretary to a listening exercise, which is interesting because the last time the word listening was used in this kind of context, as I recall, was when Hillary Clinton, in preparation for running for Senate from New York in 1999, went on a listening tour of New York State, which was a way of saying that she was going to go around and see if she could get support without actually ever giving a speech or saying much of anything or doing much of anything. Clearly, Donald Trump will be speaking a lot on Friday in Anchorage, maybe before, certainly after we have been promised a press conference or a press availability of some sort after the meeting. Trump has also said that he will be getting on the phone the minute the meeting is over with Volodymyr Zelensky and with the heads of NATO, both, all of whom are extremely concerned that this summit will be some kind of a Yalta like concession to Moscow and reveal a double cross in which we unilaterally hand over parts of the territory of Ukraine to Putin. The one indication we have that that might or might not happen was a genuinely bonkers statement by our ambassador to NATO, Matthew Whitaker. We mentioned earlier in the week where he said that people are only going to get territory that they won fair and square. I can't quite remember the phrasing, but that they earned. They earned through blood, sweat, toil and tears, which is a repugnant thing to say about an offensive action against a sovereign country for no other reason than its takeover. And Whitaker should not only be fired, remanded back to Washington, but he should be forced to work in a Ukrainian restaurant in Queens for a couple of years for his sins. But he won't be. And we don't know whether he reflects the true view of the administration or whether these efforts to downgrade the importance of the summit that seem to be taking place now are a closer indication of the simple fact that Witkoff said, you know, he really wants to meet with you. And Trump said, sure, let's meet. We'll meet, we'll meet. I want to do it on my grounds. I don't want to do it, you know, we're doing it on American soil at an American military base, which is generally not the way a summit works. Right. You go to neutral territory. A third. A third place. And you also have lots of prep with lots of different officials at lots of different levels.
- [06:59]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, it's not like most summits that we've had in American history in, in the summit. Summitry period came together pretty quickly. Remember, Wyckoff visited Moscow after visiting Israel and the Gaza Strip last week, had one of his three hour long meetings with Vladimir Putin. And then after that meeting, Trump announced that there would be a summit between Trump and Putin to discuss a possible deal. And so this has come across, come around very quickly. We weren't even sure of the exact location in Alaska until the White House sent at a travel advisory Monday evening. Some of us were hoping they might choose one of Alaska's more exotic locations like Nome or Fairbanks, you know, kind of out of the way, but, you.
- [07:58]
John Podhoretz
Know, by the way, is being threatened right now, the capital of Alaska, by a melting glacier, Juneau State, which may literally. Yeah, Juno.
- [08:08]
Unnamed Speaker
It could be Sitka. That would have connotations because I believe precedent.
- [08:13]
Seth Mandel
Don't go ice fishing with Vladimir.
- [08:15]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah. And sick, I think, was a Russian trading post. So it will be, it seems, in the military base in Anchorage. Trump downplayed expectations. On Monday during his news conference announcing the takeover of the D.C. police, he said, look, I'm going to hear him out. Probably know within two minutes whether he's serious or not. And if he's not, I might just say, okay and go. Which, you know, raises the. Raises the question of why he's going in the first place. I think the fear that Trump is somehow going to agree to a Russian demand that Ukraine vacate territory in the Donbass, in the eastern parts of Ukraine that Russia has not occupied is fairly overblown. That seems to be what Putin's demand is, to take over Donetsk Province, which he has not conquered as part of any ceasefire agreement. And this would be a terrible concession for a variety of reasons, including the fact that this area of Ukraine contains what's known as the Fortress Belt. And one reason Putin has not been able to conquer it is because of the hardened defenses there. So if somehow the Americans and the Europeans were to force Ukraine to give it up, then that would ease Putin's potential path direct to Kyiv once he decided to resume the war. I think most of the messaging we're hearing from the White House recognizes that this probably won't amount to much, this meeting on Friday. The real fear, I think, from the Europeans and the Ukrainians is that Putin won't convince Trump to agree to a deal, but he will convince Trump that it's actually Zelensky who's the obstacle to peace. And if that happens, then we'll be right back where we were during January and February at the Oval Office meeting, which helped no one.
- [10:32]
John Podhoretz
The other source of worry among people who support the Ukrainian cause were comments by JD Vance earlier in the week where once again, he said something like, american taxpayers should know that we're done. Not a cent more is going to this fight. Which is not true, as it turns out. From what we hear yesterday or heard yesterday, the administration continues to say that despite whatever happens at the summit, that we will continue to sell arms or do some version of selling arms to the Europeans for transshipment to Ukraine. So this is another reason for skepticism about the pro Putin, pro Russia line.
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Unnamed Speaker
But that's not taxpayer dollars. Well, the deal is. Conforms to what J.D. vance is saying.
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John Podhoretz
Right. What I mean is Vance. What Vance said. What Vance was trying to intimate was the United States is no longer going to intervene in this conflict. Okay, so let's say he said taxpayer dollars.
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Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, I don't think that's what he was saying. I think what he was saying is we're no longer directly arming Ukraine as we've been doing. And one, that might not be true either, because in the defense authorization package that's made its way through the Congress, there is more money for Ukraine. But as far as the administration is concerned, what they think has happened is that Trump made the deal with the NATO countries that they would purchase the weapons and give them to Ukraine. Thus, we would no longer be directly supplying Ukraine, but we'd also be making money on the transactions.
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John Podhoretz
Right. Okay. I mean, we're talking here about sort of music and lyrics. So the Vance's lyrics conform with what you're saying Vance's music was. We're getting out, so don't worry. We're getting out. We're getting out. Don't worry. That was what he was trying to convey on Monday. You look skeptical.
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Unnamed Speaker
I just don't think that's what he's trying to. We're not getting out. We were never in. We've been supplying them. We've been supplying them, and now he wants us.
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John Podhoretz
You know, I mean, this is the interesting argument that we're having here. Vance would like us not to support the. The Zelensky regime. I think that's. He's made that eminently clear, that he would like us to stand down from the American support for Ukraine's sovereignty against this depredation from Russia. And he was. He is, therefore. So that was what he was trying to convey earlier this week. I may have been unjust in saying that he said, there's no taxpayer dollars whatever, because I don't have the transcript in front of me. But my clear sense of what he was doing was the. The restrainers are back in power. We're.
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Unnamed Speaker
We're getting our. I just disagree.
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John Podhoretz
Okay.
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Unnamed Speaker
I think he's just saying this is what the administration policy is, to somehow get a negotiated settlement to the Ukraine, Russia war. Right. And that is what Trump is doing. At the same time, Trump, other than the temporary pause in intelligence support and military aid following the White House blow up, has. Has basically continued American support for Ukraine.
- [14:09]
John Podhoretz
And has said not only that, but switched. His tone shifted dramatically. What was it, six, seven weeks ago, when he basically said, putin's arguing in bad faith. I don't trust him.
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Unnamed Speaker
Right.
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John Podhoretz
He's full of it now. Let's. And he also said, I'll know in three. In one minute when we sit down at the table, whether he's serious about peace, which is an interesting way to talk about a meeting that's going to take place over three hours. You know, it's like, I'll know in the first minute, and then, you know, basically, whatever happens, happens.
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Unnamed Speaker
It might not be three hours.
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John Podhoretz
No, it might not.
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Unnamed Speaker
You know, I mean, it could. With Trump, you never know any of these things. I will say that this morning before we.
- [14:54]
John Podhoretz
Well, the two of them like to talk. We got it. You got to admit that the two of them love to jabber, not to talk to each other. They like to deliver long monologues at other people. And it's not clear how many people are going to be in the room. There's going to be some moment at which everybody leaves the room, and it'll just be the two of them and their interpreters, and nobody will be taking notes. Which also happened, I guess, in Helsinki in 2017 or 2018. I can't remember when that.
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Unnamed Speaker
That was.
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John Podhoretz
2018, 2018, when that meeting was. Okay, so we literally have.
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Seth Mandel
I think there's a. I feel like there's a more Basic question here, which is, so what? Like, so let's say they get together and they decide that they're going to do some sort of land swap or whatever. It's Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainians aren't going to say, well, Trump said we should give this to Putin, right? I mean, Abe, you were there, right, among them, among the soldiers and the civilians, and you sort of gauged the attitude there. Let's say that the summit happens and they decide Ukraine should give certain territory to Russia. What practical effect could that possibly have?
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Abe Greenwald
Well, first of all, I was there over a year ago, and my sense is that the attitude generally has shifted quite a bit. Not in the sense that they don't. They still want to repel Russia from everywhere they can. But I think these sort of all or nothing demand, which I think is righteous and moral and correct on their part, I think is, is softening just due to, you know, attrition. So, but, but from every, every indication I've seen, I don't think Zelensky is interested in, in trading much Ukrainian territory for any promise that comes out of the Kremlin. I mean, that's the thing. You can't, as he said long ago, you cannot trust anything that Putin says. And my fear here is that Putin will say he's ready for some sort of land swap whether he means it or not, and it will set up Ukraine as the stumbling block, as the bad guy. Once again, in the administration's mind, I think that is real fear. I just don't know where Trump is at in terms of what he sees as acceptable in terms of conditions to end this war. You know, I don't know if he's comfortable with some significant percentage of Ukraine being handed over to Russia for the sake of peace.
- [17:54]
John Podhoretz
We don't know. We can't know. And that's part of the interesting aspect of the hurried meeting between the two of them. Two consequences of such a meeting, number one, is that nobody really has time to draw up scenarios or plans or maps or anything like that of any significance, which is what you might expect from a peace negotiation involving the possible conclusion of a war. Like what, what will it look like when the war is over? If you're giving people 10 days with very complicated things going on even as we speak, like little Russian commando units, you know, puncture, you know, punching through into part parts of Ukrainian territory that they had abandoned, which happened over the last week to establish some kind of a beachhead to say, oh, look, we're holding, you know, X area. So that has to be considered in light of all of these kinds of conversations. So in that sense, it can't really be a serious negotiation because there's, there's nothing substantive in the details that either of these guys is going to negotiate. Secondarily, though, what that means is that Trump may mean what he says, which is like, yeah, I'll sit down with them. I want to, I want to. I want to sit down with them, hear what comes out of his mouth when he's face to face with me, as opposed to with Witkoff or, or, you know, or talking, you know, trash in the press or whatever. Let's see what he says. And if I don't like what he says, I'm gonna walk away from the table and maybe I'll throw a billion dollars at you. How do I know? I don't know what. I don't know what he's gonna do for me.
- [19:35]
Unnamed Speaker
And I really think that's what's going on here.
- [19:37]
John Podhoretz
Yeah.
- [19:38]
Unnamed Speaker
And nothing more. I also think Trump hasn't had a great power meeting since taking office in his second term. He's been wanting to meet with Xi Jinping, but something's going on there that Xi Jinping is stalling him or something, you know, as they're negotiating trade and other items such as TikTok. And Trump is, I think, kind of eager to show that he can be with the strongmen, just like last time. He can, you know, he can swagger in there and invite Xi Jinping to Mar a Lago, or he can have Putin and Helsinki and beat up on the media in the deep state with Putin smirking nearby. So here is an opportunity that Putin, it seems, raised in his meeting with Wyckoff. And Trump is like, well, why not? It's also, you know, the location is unusual. We mentioned that typically for these types of summits, it's a neutral place. And that was the case when Trump had his two summits with Kim Jong Un in his first term. They were, they were in third party countries, third nations. In this case, Putin is coming to the United States, which is a sign of deference in foreign affairs. It's not Trump traveling to Moscow. So that's another thing. I think that Trump was like, okay, well, if he's going to come to Alaska, then that's fine, too. I am leery of this because meeting Putin at all is a reward. No US President has met with him in person since the invasion, the direct invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Trump hasn't met with him since the Helsinki disaster in 2018. So we just. One reason we're just so wary of what's going to happen is he's agreed to meet with him and you never know what's going to come out. Another thing we don't know is will Putin be there for a joint press conference with Trump at the end of the meeting? Trump obviously is going to talk to people, but is he going to be there with Putin like he was in Helsinki? I think Putin would love that because it would.
- [22:13]
Seth Mandel
That was widely seen as a disaster.
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Unnamed Speaker
It would give him an opportunity to just propagandize. And Trump, Trump's nature means that he would probably end up saying, well, Putin raises some good points. You know, next to him, that wouldn't help. That would fray the alliance. But we just don't know. We also was also weird. Is that because of the location, the timing of the meeting? So Alaska is like five hours behind the east coast of the United States. So if they get there and they start in, you know, Friday morning, Alaska time, it's already going to be the afternoon here in the nation's political and media capitals. And when they're done, Trump could be holding a conference.
- [23:00]
John Podhoretz
It's the ultimate Friday night news dump.
- [23:01]
Unnamed Speaker
I know, I know. That's, again, that's why we should have very little expectations. My only desire for this meeting is that Trump knows to walk away if Putin is selling him a line of baloney. And I think Trump can do that, and I hope he does do that.
- [23:19]
Abe Greenwald
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- [24:36]
John Podhoretz
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- [26:04]
Seth Mandel
Has come around to that side of Putin much more so than in his first term. So there's a reason to hope because he has said things like that in the past, you know, six months or so that Putin's not serious and he's jerking everybody around and, and, you know, whatever. So there's a reason to hope. But as Matt says, Trump, you know, law empty, MTV unplugged, you know, live in front of a microphone that the stream of consciousness that comes out could have all sorts of someone in the.
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Unnamed Speaker
Press corps says something he doesn't like. By the way, this is why I really want first Lady Melania Trump to accompany the president not necessarily to the meeting, but just have her on Air Force One because she has been a lodestar of good sense over the past six months. She's the one who in the evenings apparently tells President Trump, you know, Putin and you get along so on the phone, but then you hang up and he starts killing Ukrainian children. And Trump has quoted these conversations several times and I think they do have an influence on his thinking so if she's just there on the plane, you know, in the, in the base, she can meet with the troops or something. As long as she's there, I'd be reassured that we won't have a total disaster coming out of this meeting.
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John Podhoretz
Yeah.
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Abe Greenwald
My fear is just that he doesn't have hardened opinions on, on people. You know, they are, they are informed by where they're at in terms of negotiation at any given moment. And he meant it when he turned on Putin because he had seen that Putin was obstinate and that this was pointless. If he's given some reason to his thinking to believe that Putin is now amenable to some sort of deal, Trump could do a 180.
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Unnamed Speaker
And I do fear the oddity is that Zelensky has agreed to the Trump administration proposal of a 30 day ceasefire. He agreed to that in the spring after the Oval Office blowout. So that should be the starting line. And if Putin comes in and says, no, I'm not going to agree to the 30 day ceasefire, what I'll do is I'll give you a ceasefire in the air. Or I even read today a partial cease fire in the air. I don't even know what that means. Well, Trump could say, okay, well, this is what Putin wants. Will Europe and Zelensky agree? And there it's. It's unclear whether they should. You know, I mean, and does that mean that Trump will be angry at Zelensky? Maybe. I also thought it was interesting at the press conference on Monday where Trump said, it's not for me to make the deal, it's for Zelensky and Europe to make the deal with Putin. I'm out of this. We're going to sell them weapons.
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John Podhoretz
They can give it.
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Unnamed Speaker
I'm. What Trump wants to be is the. And I'm more and more convinced of this. Trump wants to be Theodore Roosevelt. He wants to be the man with the bully pulpit, gunboat diplomacy, but the end of the day, the mediator who wins the Nobel priest Prize. And so he's had these string of what he sees as diplomatic accomplishments, most recently last week, having the presidents of Azerbaijan and Armenia in the White House agreeing to this settlement over the territorial fight they've been having for years, which.
- [29:27]
Seth Mandel
Was bad for Russia, by the way. Like, he kicked Russia, Russia out of that.
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Unnamed Speaker
He did it. He did it with Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda. He got Thailand and Cambodia to stop shelling each other. He, India and Pakistan were having border skirmishes earlier this year. He intervened. So he feels the winds at his back, and he wants to have the same role here. The problem is that Ukraine wants the war to end, but Russia wants to end Ukraine, and you can't have a mediation when that's the case.
- [30:01]
Seth Mandel
And he's also asked, like, there's Melania on one side, but the other shoulder, right. If we do the Devil and the angel or whatever, on the shoulder getting advice about Ukraine, the other shoulder sits Viktor Orban. He said this. That's what he said at the press conference. Also, Trump said he asked Orban of Hungary, what if Ukraine could win the war, if Ukraine could still win. And Orban said, no, that's ridiculous. The Russians are war fighters by nature. They, they do this for a living. And so Trump seemed to find that rather convincing. So that's the other thing is that he may accidentally talk to Viktor Orban or something five minutes before he sits down at the table, and that could influence the way he.
- [30:42]
John Podhoretz
Russians are great at losing wars. One thing you'd say about them is they are. Their, their, their record of losing wars is almost unparalleled. World War I, the Russo Japanese War. By the way, we should mention when, when Matt said that he would like to be Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt was the mediator that concluded the Russo Japanese War in, in.
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Unnamed Speaker
Was it 1905?
- [31:13]
John Podhoretz
So, so I doubt that he knows the history of the Roosevelt intervention into the Russo Japanese War, but he may.
- [31:21]
Unnamed Speaker
Have seen a documentary on the History Channel about it.
- [31:23]
John Podhoretz
It's possible, right? Exactly.
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Unnamed Speaker
I mean, this also, by the way, informs his belief in the Russian war machine because he's watched all these documentaries about World War II.
- [31:32]
John Podhoretz
You're right. And, and, and Roosevelt won. Either it was either the first or the second or some Nobel Peace Prize for his role in mediating the end of the Russo Japanese War. I think it is as likely for Trump to win a Nobel Peace Prize if he spent, if he settles 20 wars this year. The dead Palestinian Hamas agent who was posing as a journalist is more likely to win the Nobel Peace Prize posthumously than Trump is for actually having created conditions.
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Unnamed Speaker
You know, I have to tell you, I was skeptical he would ever win the award, but lately I feel as though his chances are rising. And because, and here's why the Europeans have decided that they want to flat. The way to Trump's heart is to flatter him. And the way to get Trump on your side is to flatter him. And the current NATO Secretary General, Mark Ruda, of course, you know, referred to Trump as Daddy during the Naito summit, which Trump loved. And Trump has been Very supportive of NATO. In fact, just today, before we recorded the podcast, he truthed that he, he's going to have a call with the European leaders who are great people and want peace. Right. So he's on there. So if you're the kind of, you know, deracinated bureau Euro weenies who decide the Nobel Prize in Stockholm, maybe you're like, you know, maybe Trump will get off our, our backs if we give him the Nobel Prize for all these different agreements.
- [33:13]
John Podhoretz
He's. That would be, that would be very interesting. But you bring up one last thing we should mention, which is that part of the sea change here in the tone of Trump relating to Russia and Ukraine was his hostility toward Europe and Western Europe at the beginning of the administration. And Europe's stalwart support for Ukraine in its struggle against Russia was leading him to have a kind of reflexive, well, if they want it, I'm against it. And then they had this love fest, you know, in the late spring, NATO agreeing to, NATO countries agreeing to elevate their defense spending to 5%, you know, doing all this. And now Trump likes Europe and therefore his view of Ukraine has softened considerably because it's no longer this weird. Europe is Biden and Biden and Europe and are hated. Merkel. Merkel Sparkle's gone.
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Unnamed Speaker
Schultz is gone. Merits came to the White House, remember, and gave him the birth certificate of one of his grandfathers.
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John Podhoretz
And he had a nice time with Starmer. He says he likes Macron. I mean, this has been a pretty startling change from how aggressively hostile he was toward Europe in the first term and in the first month or two of the administration. And that has had a huge impact on how he, I think, talks and thinks about you now.
- [34:51]
Unnamed Speaker
And, you know, just to pick up on that, because it's a great observation, at the same time, our relations with the Indo Pacific have been de. Elevated. And so if you looked at the first Trump term as one where Trump was a China hawk, we were creating the Indo Pacific quad. Trump's relationship with Shinzo Abe of Japan was extremely strong. He was really building ties with Nadira Modi, the prime Minister of India. And at the same time, he hated the Europeans. Right?
- [35:31]
John Podhoretz
It's reversed.
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Unnamed Speaker
It's remarkable to see how it's reversed. The Japanese do not know what to do. They're in a kind of a political crisis of their own. This new Sanseto Party, the Japanese maga, they're rising. Korea, the Korean president, who of course is the left winger who took over after the right winger president who tried to have a coup was impeached and removed from office. He's supposed to visit the White House later this month. And now both Japan and Korea have made deals with the United States. But you can tell that Trump's just not, he's not as excited about the East Asian allies, Taiwan and India. Yeah, I'll get to India with Taiwan. We were strongly pro Taiwan. And remember when Trump took the call from the Taiwanese president even before he assumed office in 2016. We just got word last week that Trump administration denied the current Taiwanese president a travel visa into the United States. And then India, where you know, Trump and Modi were whole, have been holding hands in the past. But now we are slapping a 50% tariff on India because of their purchases on Russian oil. The agreement I mentioned earlier that Trump mediated between India and Pakistan is thought to favor Pakistan. And Trump has talked up the Pakistani military chief recently as well. So there has been this sharp field reversal in the first six months of the second administration. Europe oddly up in his personal relations which matter the most to him and Asia down.
- [37:26]
John Podhoretz
It's very hard to, it's very hard to read what all of this means. I will commend to people's attention an article in the September Commentary now available on our website by a new contributor, Mike Burke, who is a, who is a British academic living in Japan about Japan's, the importance of Japan's military role in the Pacific and the quiet alliance between Japan in and the United States on military matters. That is, it's pretty eye opening because it is very quiet. And Japan of course has a constitutional amendment that obliges it essentially to be pacifist in the wake of World War II, but of course cannot really hold to that in the long run with the threat from China. And so this piece goes into how, how Japan is seeking to strengthen its ability to project some power and project power on behalf of the anti Chinese west, you know, in the, in the Far east with significant connections and collaborations with the Pentagon. I only bring that up because it's an argument I really haven't seen or laid out anywhere else. And it's well worth, well worth your time. Why don't we shift and I mean there's so much to talk about in relation to Israel, the United States antisemitism, the universities and the cultural war against Israel. I, I barely know where to begin.
- [39:13]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, you think about where to begin. I'd like to just put in a word about the commentary YouTube channel. Oh yes, it says I just update.
- [39:24]
John Podhoretz
Yeah, we're doing it in the middle here. It's good we're doing it in the.
- [39:26]
Unnamed Speaker
Middle because I have an enticement at the end of my remarks. But we're doing it in the middle because I'm just doing a mid show checkup here. We are now at 19,900 subscribers.
- [39:40]
John Podhoretz
My God, people, we could be fewer.
- [39:44]
Unnamed Speaker
Than 100 people away from reaching our goal set earlier this summer of 20,000 by Labor Day. 20,000 people subscribing to our commentary YouTube channel. That's remarkable. We're going to have a reward. And so I once again want to encourage everyone Visit the Commentary YouTube channel. Subscribe. Like our videos. You don't have to watch them, but if you do watch them, indeed, if you have watched Today's episode on YouTube, you will have seen Abe Greenwald struggle with the most dramatic coughing fit that I've, I've watched in sometimes he. You seem to be okay now.
- [40:22]
Abe Greenwald
Yeah, I apologize.
- [40:24]
Unnamed Speaker
Okay, but that's.
- [40:24]
Seth Mandel
Subscribe, subscribe to make sure that Abe is okay. It's like Peter Pan where you clapped.
- [40:31]
John Podhoretz
That's right. That's right.
- [40:35]
Abe Greenwald
It's very dramatic. There's no guarantee that the shot, the angle will be on me as I am.
- [40:41]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, that is true because we have a highly produced YouTube product, but highly produced by AI yes, but I, I.
- [40:50]
John Podhoretz
For one, and by our colleague Stephanie Roberts. But I do want to say it is an amazing thing that when we started talking about this at the beginning of the summer, we had about 7,000 subscribers. And we're up what would appear to be about 13,000 subscribed, which means that we have, you know, I'm not doing math again, but it's a, you know, 2, 300% increase. And that's all due to you guys and thank you. And people do seem to like watching us. I, I continue to puzzle at the, this whole medium, this sort of, the, it's a, it's just another version of a, of a TV chat show. And I understand why you want to watch us rather than, you know, Joy Reid and Simone Sanders or the conversation between Joe Scarborough and, and I think Simone Sanders, when Joe Scarborough said, do you feel, don't, you know, don't you feel like you need cops to keep people safe?
- [41:48]
Unnamed Speaker
You don't feel safe if there are more cops.
- [41:49]
John Podhoretz
You don't feel safe. She said, I'm a black woman.
- [41:53]
Unnamed Speaker
Which, by the way, is so divorced from reality because as we just mentioned on the show yesterday, the people who feel that crime is a very, very serious problem in D.C. more than anyone are black. Women. And I think it just shows you the difference between the black left, which is up and down msnbc, and the actual opinions of black Americans, which are diametrically opposite than what you often hear on the broadcast.
- [42:30]
John Podhoretz
And this is very, and the mayor.
- [42:32]
Seth Mandel
Is a black woman who has taken a very different tone than most of the commentators.
- [42:39]
John Podhoretz
She shifted her tone last night. Somebody read her the riot act and now she said Trump is bringing fascism to D.C. oh, what she said in the morning, yesterday morning was, look, Constitution gives him the right to do this, which it does. And, and so does, so does, so does legislation, the home rule legislation before Congress. And so, you know, I can't stop it. And he's got the right to do it. And then last night she said, oh, woe betide us. You know, it's the Reichstag fire. And you know, all, all, all evil is, is, is coming to our, to our shores. Meanwhile, two people were shot in broad daylight in the middle of relatively nice neighborhoods in D.C. yesterday afternoon. One Logan Circle and somewhere else. So it's like, yeah, congratulations on your, you know, maybe if they gotten there two days earlier, two people would be alive who are now dead. It's a whole other interesting topic about just how far are you.
- [43:41]
Unnamed Speaker
Can I ask you a question on this? Are you surprised at how interested the country is in the D.C. crime takeover story? I'm a little, I'm amazed. I thought that this was just going to be a Trump thing. He announced it and then next, next day we'd be talking about some other outrage. But I think everyone is really keyed into this story.
- [44:04]
John Podhoretz
You and I had this exchange over text over the weekend where I said to you, I don't why is he bothered? So much else is on his plate, like, why is he bothering with this? And then you said what I think is actually right, which is that it was this horrifying attack on the 22 year old administration official.
- [44:25]
Unnamed Speaker
Younger, you know, he's 17 years old.
- [44:27]
John Podhoretz
Was he 17? He's like, yeah, he's this sort of genius kid.
- [44:31]
Unnamed Speaker
He's really young.
- [44:31]
John Podhoretz
Came to be known as big balls.
- [44:34]
Unnamed Speaker
Big balls.
- [44:35]
John Podhoretz
Getting, that's who he is. Horribly mauled and beaten up in Dupont Circle last week. And I think that people, we keep getting these things where it's like, you know, Americans seem to think that crime is really bad, but actually the numbers say otherwise. Right. The parallels to inflation here are really significant, which is to say the Biden people would say inflation or it's not really that bad or historically it's not that bad. And we would say on this part constantly, it doesn't matter what you say. Macroeconomically, the question is what does a person feel when they're on the supermarket checkout line? And if they feel like they're spending 25% more than they spent last year, it doesn't matter if you tell them that, that shipments, you know, that the ports are open or the containerized shipping is back to pre Covid levels. What matters is there, as we say, lived experience. And I think why you hit something very important is Americans clearly don't feel very safe. They don't. And you can't talk people into feeling safe. Now why people, the vast majority of whom don't live like where we live, like I live in a city that is less safe than it used to be. And I told the story yesterday about being on a, being menaced on a subway car with my son in tow. But you know, most people aren't in subway cars in the United States and they're not in cities in the United States and all of that. But I think this is an indicator, this is some kind of a weird referendum on how people are feeling about public safety and public order. And I think even in a small town, a suburb, wherever you are, there's some homeless guy wandering around in your like village green, lying in the gazebo, sleeping in the gazebo at night that the police have decided it's worse to, you know, you either there's a constitutional reason or state constitution says you can or whatever to collect them and bring them in like Otis, the drunk from the Andy Griffith show, and bring them in to sleep it off in the, you know, in a, in a cell in the, you know, safely. But I see that I've just, I spent a lot of time all over the Northeast in the last three years and every, and you see it in small towns in New Hampshire, you know, a strung out guy, drugs on fentanyl, who's sleeping on the ground in a park in Keene, New Hampshire. Like it's not person.
- [47:29]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [47:30]
John Podhoretz
So that could be anywhere.
- [47:31]
Unnamed Speaker
Right.
- [47:32]
John Podhoretz
And, and, and one such person has an outsized impact because if, again, if you're a parent, you're taking your kid to a playground and you have to walk by somebody who's strung out, lying on a bench and you have to explain it or not explain it, you're like, what, why is this happening?
- [47:51]
Unnamed Speaker
So I think that's why the 80% is interested in the story and backs what Trump is doing. But then the reason you have wall to wall coverage is the 20% are also keyed into the story because they think Trump the fascist is asserting his control. So it's an unusual story in that it gives everyone a reason to pay attention. And I think that the majority see this and say, you know what, if Trump can do something about it, that'd be great. I happen to think that he won't be able to do much about it, but why not?
- [48:29]
Abe Greenwald
But in either case, it, it puts a spotlight on the issue of just runaway crime as experienced in the cities. And it's, it's gonna put pressure on people like Mamdani, you know, and other Democrats who run cities who are, who throw up the stats at you and, you know, tell you that there's nothing to fear.
- [48:58]
Matthew Continetti
Hi everyone, I'm Matt Ebert, CEO and founder of Crash Champions. Welcome to Pod Crash. On Pod Crash, we'll dive deep with industry leaders and game changers because we want to uncover their secrets to success. We're going to explore everything from building trust, building a rock solid team, to champion blue collar work. And we also want to talk about creating explosive growth in your business. You'll hear actionable advice, real leadership and business lessons along with what's worked for these incredible people throughout their career. We're even going to go in depth into what I call a Champions mindset. This is the very philosophy that I use to champion people and take Crash Champions from one single shop to, to over 650 locations today. And now I want to share that information with you, Watch or listen to pod crash on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [49:52]
Seth Mandel
I'm Oliver Darcy. And I'm John Passantino.
- [49:55]
Unnamed Speaker
We have spent years covering the inner.
- [49:56]
Seth Mandel
Workings of the news media, tech, politics, Hollywood and power. Now through our nightly newsletter, Status. And we're bringing that same reporting and show sharp analysis to a new podcast, Powerlines. Every Friday, we're breaking down the biggest stories shaping the industry, explaining why they matter and saying the things most people are thinking but too timid to say out loud. No spin, no fluff, just sharp analysis that isn't afraid to call it like it is.
- [50:22]
John Podhoretz
We also pull back the curtain via.
- [50:23]
Seth Mandel
Our exclusive reporting to take you behind the scenes. My understanding having reported this is that the Pentagon protested to CNN and tried to effectively exile the CNN producer. And when the moment calls for it, we've got some hot takes. I just think Brad Pitt, honestly, he kind of seems a little washed up.
- [50:43]
John Podhoretz
Oh my God. That's Power Lines presented by Status. Follow Power Lines and listen on Apple.
- [50:50]
Seth Mandel
Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [50:58]
John Podhoretz
Trump says that crime is out of control, and it isn't really. In macro terms, sure. Conventional social order in the United States is out of control.
- [51:13]
Unnamed Speaker
Right.
- [51:14]
John Podhoretz
And this is a stand in.
- [51:16]
Unnamed Speaker
Yes.
- [51:17]
John Podhoretz
For 10,000 other things, including that feeling you get. Again, if you're a parent, you're taking your kid into a public school, particularly if you have any kind of political consciousness. Drop them off, they go in, the doors close, and you have no idea what is being preached to them for eight hours until they get home. And whether or not your values are being undermined, your religious faith is being undermined, all of that. And that, that weirdly connects to this because it is this sense that people that the public officials in the country who run the education system, run the healthcare system, run our governments and all of that are not acting with our best interests at heart, but their own, or they're serving political masters who we don't even see or really entirely understand. In this respect, I'd like to shout out a really brilliant piece by Armin Rosen in Tablet, published yesterday about New York City, trying to explain the Mamdani phenomenon in New York City. And Armen points out with acres of detail how what we think of as the teeming populace of New York City and where it is and where it's is largely a misunderstanding that people under 40 who live in New York who actually may have relatively good incomes are disproportionately not only creatures of elite educations and bad educations at the upper level, but a lot of them work in and around and adjacent to this world of nonprofit social action. If they're not doing it, their girlfriend is or their boyfriend is or something like that, and they're a member of their polycul is. And there are hundreds of thousands of people working in the nonprofit sector in New York City. Hundreds of thousands of them. A lot of them are under 40 and most of them are left wing, and 90% of them are Mamdani voters. And remember, he only got. He had 500,000 votes in a city of 9 million in the primary. So it's not like he represents an ocean wave of socialist, communist, anti Semitic support. What he represents is who he is, people exactly like him whose livelihoods, lives and focus is on matters that are of no interest and no concern to most people. And he even points out, in relation to what I was talking about about social order and kids and all that, that there are so many people in New York City who are single, without kids, and because you can't afford to live in New York City as a married person with kids. Just ask Seth, who happily had to leave because he couldn't take it anymore at the rent level and the safety level that he was at live here. But that the streetscape has been altered profoundly. The. The proliferation of bike lanes, which there are now hundreds and hundreds of miles, that is transportation for solo individual people. Doesn't help you if you have to, like, put. There aren't stroller lanes. You know, it's not like you're spending all this money and you're making sure that every subway station has an elevator. So someone with a stroller can get up and down into a subway station without having to bump a stroller down 26 or 30 steps.
- [55:08]
Seth Mandel
And people, when you mentioned stroller lane, people have to walk in the street in New York today. You have to because of the sheds, the construction sheds and things like that. It pushes foot traffic into the street. So it's not a joke to say there's no lane for walkers. Sometimes there is no place for people to walk.
- [55:26]
John Podhoretz
Right. So all I'm saying is that, is that, is that this world of the 20%, Matt, that you're talking about is an incredibly powerful 20%. It's a disproportionate 20%. It is the edu. It is the most highly educated people. They are the ones who work in public policy. They are the ones who write research papers and they do this and they do that and they do the other thing, and they have uncommon power to set the news agenda and this war between the life of common sense that says, you know, I'm living in a suburb of Cincinnati and there shouldn't be five homeless guys in the park near my house as against people who are saying what we really need to do is build subsidized housing by the tens of millions. So not only should this guy be allowed to live in your park, you. Your tax dollars should then go to build him a home that he won't use. That he won't use. Exactly right. So it is. It is a very. It's a much bigger thing that Trump, I think, without just with that lizard animal cunning is. Has. Has connected to.
- [56:40]
Unnamed Speaker
Since we were talking, Mamdani, I have to give another example that I encountered this morning of what your father once called the perversity of brilliance. And that is a column by George F. Will in the Washington Post headline, why Mamdani's Socialism on the Hudson would be Useful for America. This is an elaboration of comments that George Will made on real time with the Bill Maher last Friday where he said he wants Mamdani to win because in a kind of very George William clever paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson, every 20 years we need an experiment in socialism to show everyone why it doesn't work.
- [57:26]
John Podhoretz
Whereas Clemenza says there's gotta be a war every five years, 10 years. You gotta get the blood out.
- [57:31]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, right.
- [57:31]
John Podhoretz
Yeah.
- [57:32]
Unnamed Speaker
So I strongly object to this thesis because I think it's very easy for George Will to say, sure, let Mamdani win in New York. Because of course George is a resident of a D.C. suburb. He won't have to live with it. But Mamdani is not just a kind of champagne socialist who's going to try to get the free buses and the rent freeze and tax the wealthier more and probably fail in all three regards. He is an anti Semite. He is a virulent anti Zionist. And his morality will amp up the anti Semitism as he fails on the economic agenda. That's the classic playbook of. If you just look at Arab nationalism, right, the secularist Arab revolutionary leaders after decolonization tried to create these socialist utopias with Arab pan. Arab identities. They all failed. And what was their response? Ah, anti Semitism. We're going to educate our people instead to blame the Jews for all of our failures. And so while it might make a good line on real time, I have to say I'm. I'm virulently opposed to the idea that having someone like Zoran Mamdani be the mayor is good in any respect.
- [59:04]
Abe Greenwald
I also oppose it owing to something that John pointed out episodes back, which is that I'm not convinced that these lessons are ever properly learned anyway. You know, it's not. Let's. I don't think it. I don't think the lesson that takes after you have a disastrous mayoralty or whatever else it is because 10 big factors shift over time and suddenly you're back where you are. There's another reason to be interested in another person talking about something similar, similarly socialistic.
- [59:43]
Seth Mandel
So yeah, I mean, and also the fact that what would hap just him winning is bad on those issues also because there's. We could talk about the incentives, right? Which is if the party sees and the public and the activists and every. All everybody sees that you can run as an anti Semite and be rewarded for it with great power and you know, elevated in your party and all that other stuff, you reward something, you get more of it. I mean it's just Basic human nature. The people looking on are looking to see, can you talk the way Zoran Mamdani talks about Jews and Israel and win New York? And if the answer is suddenly yes, that's a huge change in the, in the public culture, in the civic culture of what New York represents to people. So just the victory, even, you know, setting aside what might happen, the victory itself will increase anti Semitism. Look, just because of that.
- [60:45]
John Podhoretz
Look, this point is so self evidently true that going back as we have a couple of times to 1990, the head of the Klan was nominated by the Republican Party to be the nominee for the governorship of Louisiana. With an understanding that a victory by such a person would not only be bad for the public image of the Republican Party, but would be a Pandora's box opening. The Republican Party and the person of the President of the United States. Then A Republican, George H.W. bush, urged voters in Louisiana, Republican voters in Louisiana to vote Democrat because it was so dangerous. What would happen if David Duke became Governor of Louisiana? The social consequences were unknowable, but none of them would be good. And we're now 35 years later and I see no such effort. I do see that poobahs, most poobahs in the Democratic Party do not want to be associated with Mandami if they can help it. But that's a different thing from Chuck Schumer, the minority leader of the, of the Senate and the Senator from New York, saying, we cannot allow this person to be mayor. You know, you must vote for Eric Adams or what. I don't know what he should say because it's a very difficult set of circumstances. But that is, it's difficult.
- [62:25]
Seth Mandel
But there are three, there are three Democrats running in the race. And that should give Democrats more of a path. Unlike HW they don't have to say, vote for the other party.
- [62:37]
John Podhoretz
And it will, by the way, because when the voting tally comes to bear, Mamdani will likely get, you know, a very small, like he will not get a majority of the vote. He'll end up at 35, 37, 38% of the vote or something like that. It doesn't matter. What you're pointing out is, it's this shift in the public consciousness that you can, you can succeed. And it was understood when there was some idea that there needed to be some kind of parties had a prophylactic role in preventing the worst outcomes so that the future would be more stable. And this of course introduces a, a note of crazy incivility. The other thing I'LL say about this is it's 20 years now since the brilliant diagnoses began by Walter Russell Mead of the failures of the blue state model. Round 2006 was when Walter started writing about the blue state model and his point quoting maybe the least true thing that has ever been said but the conservatives always love to quote which is Herbert Stein, the AI economist saying when something will no longer work, it stops. Which of course is so untrue that few things have ever been less true said. And Walter's point was the blue state model, which is sort of like governmental, top down governmental control in areas of public order, public safety and all of that just simply wasn't working and, and the public and therefore it would fail organically over time and that there would essentially be a kind of sane voter effect that would blow the blue state model out of existence. And that not only hasn't that happened, but the blue states have gotten bluer where the blue state governance has gotten more radical, not less. And, and there have only been very few instances in which voters have punished the blue staters for the model that they have imposed on them. At which point after a generation you can say, well maybe there are enough voters who actually don't.
- [64:58]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, they think the paradox is that voters punish the blue state model by leaving. And yet so when you. So the blue state elite are very good at driving away the middle class of their states, but the paradox is that that actually only strengthens blue blue control because of a Barbell coalition where you have the affluent educated liberals at the top and then the people at the bottom who depend in many cases for redistribution on their livelihoods.
- [65:33]
John Podhoretz
Okay, So I promised that we would talk a little bit Israel, but we're hitting the one hour mark so I just want to bring up one thing and then we'll, we'll go. It's out of politics. It involves the Toronto International Film Festival, the largest film festival in the world. A documentary has been made, the name of which I don't have in front of me, but it is the story of Amortibon the is retired Israeli general who upon hearing of the October 7th attacks.
- [66:12]
Seth Mandel
It's Amir's father.
- [66:13]
John Podhoretz
Amir, that's right. Excuse me, Noam Tibon. Upon hearing that Amir Tibon, who is by the way a very, very left wing correspondent for Haaretz living on the.
- [66:24]
Unnamed Speaker
Road Between Us is the name of.
- [66:26]
John Podhoretz
The road between Us that got in his car with his wife and drove to save his son. And along the way had to stop several times to pick up wounded Israeli Soldiers to kill terrorists who were like raping and killing people. Left his wife to help take some people to the hospital as he was driving. Arrives as his son and family are cowering in their house like holding the door shut. And his three year old granddaughter hearing gunfire outside their house said in Hebrew saba ba which meant grandpa has arrived. It is one of the great stories of our time. The T bone family is very left wing itself, including the hero of the story. Very anti Bibi doesn't like the Israeli government I believe is kind of part of the we need to end the war now faction documentary was made. The Toronto Film Festival has announced it will not air will not show the documentary at the Toronto Film Festival in September. On these grounds the documentarians did not secure the rights to the Hamas GoPro footage of the slaughters and massacres of Jews. And therefore the Toronto Film Festival could be sued for copyright violation if it ran the documentary, which is a lie. Either the document, either the people in Toronto are terrified of demonstrations and as we've seen, Toronto has become a charnel house of Muslim anti Semitic activity, or they do not want to show this documentary themselves because they are anti Semitic pieces of filth one way or the other. And talk about the shift in the Overton window here that documentaries which of course have become the, you call it the sort of like the currency, the coin of left wing propaganda over the last 20 years. Here's one that tells a different story that is in some ways not all that political. It is, it is literally a story of astounding personal heroism on the part of a 61 year old man.
- [69:09]
Unnamed Speaker
In fact, I had the opportunity to hear Amir Thibon last year talk about this story and maybe today's recommendation could be for his book the Gates of A Story of Betrayal, Survival and Hope in Israel's Borderlands which tells this gripping narrative. And he held my absolute attention for a good 70 minutes telling the story and then people talked politics and he lost me quickly. But the book, the book, the book is this story which everyone should read anyway.
- [69:51]
John Podhoretz
If we're now. We have now moved.
- [69:53]
Seth Mandel
Can I add one thing about. From the statement, just from the Toronto International Film Festival statement that caught my attention in the piece this. The statement is that, you know, blah, blah, blah, because general requirements for inclusion in the festival and conditions that were requested when the film was initially invited were not met, including legal clearance of all footage. And then they said this. The purpose of the requested conditions was to protect TIFF Toronto International Film Festival from legal implications and to allow TIFF to manage and mitigate anticipated and known risks around the screening of a film about a highly sensitive subject matter, including potential threat of significant disruption. To me, the inclusion of this language was, was the giveaway that this is, you know, they found, maybe they found, you know, a bureaucratic line to a T that wasn't crossed or an I that wasn't dotted as an excuse, but that's a pretext. The inclusion of the line about the disruption was because they had been speaking with the filmmakers about, the filmmakers making sure that there was enough security and the filmmakers making sure that if, if, you know, TIFF got sued or if something happened there, whatever, they were indemnified. But the, the protests are, were a foregone conclusion. And in the end TIFF got, clearly got cold feet based on the protests and, and, and the level of possible violence that could take place at this screening. And I think you don't include that phrase unless it plays a really important part. Because if this were only copyright, you would just say they don't have the copyright so they can't show the film. Instead they wind around and they make it clear that there is a big part of this that has to do with their fear of what will happen at the festival itself when they show the film.
- [71:54]
John Podhoretz
And this is part and parcel of the, the darkest side of the Overton window shift that we, that people are not properly discussing, which is the intimidation not yet in the United States, but in Canada, in Britain, in France, in Germany, in the Scandinavian countries. The physical intimidation of politicians, public safety officers and others by Muslim mobs that are on anti Semitic, anti Jewish sprees whom it has been decided are too dangerous to engage and turn back culturally. This takes the form of high and mighty statements about the need for safety and maybe problems with copyright. But we all know the truth. People in Toronto at the film festival are worried that people are going to get killed or injured by Muslim mobs whom they will not call out, will not say, you know, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should be enforced to protect freedom of speech. Because Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, doesn't believe in freedom of speech. Government of Canada right now is, you know, trying to prosecute these guys who led the anti vaccine, anti mandate protest. The truck drivers, they're trying to throw them in jail for eight years for the crime of attempting to protest a governmental policy four years ago. So they don't care and nobody cares. And we are not talking enough about how the threat of physical violence is playing a significant role in these people getting what they want. And that once again, as is the was the case on college campuses, Jews are being left to their own devices physically. And we get a story every day out of some major city. Yesterday was a, Yesterday was a 65 year old guy in France. The day before it was somebody in Montreal. Others getting beaten up while they're holding their children by somebody who beats them up, says free Palestine, walks away. There's camera footage somehow, amazingly enough, the camera footage doesn't seem to have facial recognition software good enough for them to figure out who is doing it and arrest that person. And this is, this is another vision of the future that is so terrifying in a Mamdani New York, which is, what if we have a police department that is basically instructed that it is not to intervene, as was the case, by the way, in New York in 1991 after the Crown Heights riots. Don't go in, let it burn out. It's fine. It's only Hasidim who are getting killed. Who cares? Basically, said David Dinkins and then led the way for the mayoralty Rudy Giuliani. One of the few cases in which the red state model or the blue state model found itself so egregiously, you know, out outmanned and outgunned that it could not, it could not survive. But watch this space because, you know, I'm sorry to end on this, like, note of despair because there's, there's, there's nothing to be done about this. By the way, the Toronto Film Festival, of course, did show last year's violently anti Semitic documentary no Other Land, about the evil of the settlers on the west bank that then went on to win the Oscar. So that was no problem for Tiff to show no Other Land. So good, good, good on them. It would be really nice if some producer in Hollywood maybe pulled their film from Tiff and as a, as a protest of this egregious act. But I won't hold my breath till tomorrow. For Abe, Seth and Matt, I'm John Pod Horiz. Keep the camel bur.