Trump's War on Campus Anti-Semitism

Summary

The Commentary Magazine Podcast: "Trump's War on Campus Anti-Semitism"
Release Date: March 10, 2025

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Overview

In this compelling episode of The Commentary Magazine Podcast, host Jon Podhoretz, alongside executive editor Abe Greenwald, Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti, and social commentary columnist Christine Rosen, delve deep into the Trump administration's initiatives to combat anti-Semitism on American college campuses. Released amidst heightened tensions and significant policy shifts, the discussion offers a thorough analysis of recent actions, their implications, and the broader cultural landscape affecting Jewish communities in the United States.

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1. Trump Administration’s Actions Against Campus Anti-Semitism

The episode opens with a critical examination of the Trump administration’s decision to suspend $400 million in direct federal grants to Columbia University. This move extends to a review of an additional $5 billion connected to Columbia through federal funding.

Jon Podhoretz elaborates on the administration's strategy:

"[...] the administration is holding universities responsible for their failures to protect Jewish students under Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act" ([04:50]).

The administration adopts the IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) definition of anti-Semitism, aiming to leverage civil rights laws to shield Jewish students from discrimination. This policy shift has sparked predictably strong opposition, including concerns about due process:

"There was no due process. There's a comment period..." – Jon Podhoretz ([05:10]).

Christine Rosen adds her perspective:

"I'm worried that if the administration hasn't or doesn't cross its T's and dot its I's will end up with a stunt that we've all cheered on, that won't have been effective" ([06:00]).

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2. Financial Implications and Institutional Responses

Abe Greenwald highlights the financial intertwining between federal funding and progressive university systems:

"A quarter of Columbia's operating budget comes from the federal government, showing the way in which the federal government, dominated by progressives, is interconnected with our elite university system dominated by progressives" ([07:00]).

The suspension of funds is portrayed not only as an anti-Semitism measure but also as part of a broader Trump administration effort to challenge progressive institutions. This aligns with actions like Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin's elimination of DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) programs at the University of Virginia, indicating a "counter-revolution" against entrenched progressive policies ([09:30]).

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3. ICE Interventions and Hostage Negotiations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the ICE's arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, a graduate student at Columbia accused of leading pro-Palestinian protests and promoting terrorism. Jon Podhoretz critiques the procedural mishandling during Khalil's arrest:

"He's a green card holder... it's a pathway to citizenship. [...] everything is on the table" ([11:07]).

Matthew Continetti emphasizes the necessity of using legal frameworks to address such threats:

"We want the people who are doing it to be scared [...] and we want, if they are American citizens and do things that violate the law, to fear that the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks" ([15:47]).

The conversation extends to other instances, such as the arrests at George Mason University, highlighting a pattern of increased law enforcement actions against perceived threats on campuses ([32:33]).

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4. Cultural Influence and Mainstreaming of Anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theories

Transitioning from policy to culture, the panel discusses the pervasive influence of anti-Semitic narratives in popular media and podcasts. Matthew Continetti raises concerns about figures like Theo Vaughn and Candace Owens spreading conspiracy theories:

"The mainstreaming of anti Semitic conspiracy theory is something that I think if you're conservative, you should be deeply, deeply concerned about" ([58:35]).

Christine Rosen criticizes influential podcasters such as Joe Rogan for providing platforms to anti-Semitic voices:

"Joe Rogan ... he's made it all kind of fun. [...] Do Jews control everything?" ([62:32]).

The impact on younger generations is particularly troubling, with these narratives fostering ignorance and prejudice among youth who are otherwise politically disengaged but open to alternative ideas ([60:49]).

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5. Administrative and Strategic Challenges

The panelists critique the Trump administration's handling of hostage negotiations and diplomatic strategies. Jon Podhoretz points out inconsistencies and rookie mistakes:

"He called Palestinian prisoners hostages and he called Israeli hostages prisoners. Do you know why? Because he doesn't know what he's talking about" ([50:57]).

Abe Greenwald differentiates between chaotic approaches and more strategic governmental actions:

"[...] what happened last week with doj, into the UC system and its treatment of Jewish students, ice going after the student [...] seems to be a little bit more strategic and a little Bit more planned out" ([28:02]).

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6. Long-Term Implications for Universities and Jewish Communities

The suspension of federal funding is predicted to have lasting repercussions on institutions like Columbia University. Jon Podhoretz draws parallels to the 1968 student revolts and their long-term impact:

"When Columbia was overtaken in 1968 by student radicals... their reputation in the United States fell precipitously" ([35:14]).

Abe Greenwald warns that ongoing anti-Semitic initiatives could lead to significant degradation of university environments, making them inhospitable for Jewish students and damaging their academic reputations:

"The university system as we know it is headed toward combustion" ([38:32]).

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7. Strategies for Combating Anti-Semitism

The discussion concludes with strategies to combat rising anti-Semitism. Jon Podhoretz advocates for unwavering support and success for Israel as a deterrent:

"Nothing succeeds like success. [...] The best way to fight the scourge of anti Semitism? Israel winning the war against Hamas" ([62:40]).

Abe Greenwald underscores the importance of distinguishing between political actions and cultural influences, suggesting that punitive measures against anti-Semitic behavior remain essential:

"The only way to fight it is to punish antisemitism when it rears its ugly head" ([67:41]).

Matthew Continetti emphasizes the role of education and cultural engagement in countering anti-Semitic ideologies among the youth:

"It's a cultural thing that's bubbling along... introducing an entirely new generation to these ideas uncritically" ([61:30]).

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Notable Quotes

• Jon Podhoretz ([04:50]): "The administration is holding universities responsible for their failures to protect Jewish students under Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act."

• Christine Rosen ([06:00]): "I'm worried that if the administration hasn't or doesn't cross its T's and dot its I's will end up with a stunt that we've all cheered on, that won't have been effective."

• Matthew Continetti ([58:35]): "The mainstreaming of anti Semitic conspiracy theory is something that I think if you're conservative, you should be deeply, deeply concerned about."

• Christine Rosen ([62:32]): "Joe Rogan ... he's made it all kind of fun. [...] Do Jews control everything?"

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Conclusion

This episode of The Commentary Magazine Podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of the Trump administration's multifaceted approach to combating anti-Semitism on college campuses. Through incisive analysis and passionate debate, the panelists shed light on the complexities of policy implementation, the financial and cultural ramifications for educational institutions, and the urgent need to address anti-Semitic influences in popular media. For listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of the intersection between politics, education, and cultural dynamics affecting Jewish communities today, this episode serves as an essential resource.

Transcript

[Abe Greenwald]

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[Jon Podhoretz]

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[Abe Greenwald]

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[Jon Podhoretz]

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[Abe Greenwald]

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Some drink champagne Some die of thirst no way of knowing which way it's going Hope for the best Expect the.

[Christine Rosen]

Worst for the best.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily podcast. Today is Monday, March 10, 2025. I am Jon Pothorts, the editor of Commentary magazine. With me, as always, the executive editor, Abe Greenwald. Hi, Abe.

[Christine Rosen]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Washington Commentary columnist Matthew Continetti. Hi, Matt.

[Abe Greenwald]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

And social commentary columnist Christine Rosen. Hi, Christine.

[Matthew Continetti]

Hi, John.

[Jon Podhoretz]

There's so much to talk about. One thing, never a dull day with the Dodgers. There's just this administration keeps moving and the news keeps moving. So we can talk about the defunding of Colombia. We can talk about the arrest of Colombia, Hamas activists. Hold on. It's called Khalil.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yes.

[Jon Podhoretz]

We could talk about the peace negotiations or the hostage negotiations in Egypt. We can talk about. We can talk about the budget. We can talk about the one big beautiful deal or the continuation.

[Matthew Continetti]

Matt's favorite country, Canada.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Canada.

[Abe Greenwald]

Oh, speaking of my favorite places, I discovered that the congresswoman who held up the stupid bunny ears sign over Trump's shoulder at the speech. Michelle Stansberry. Michelle Stansberry represents Albuquerque, New Mexico, which, as longtime listeners of this podcast will know, maybe my least favorite city in America. So the place that I arrived at to deliver a speech, and I just could not wait to leave. And so it was not surprising to me to hear that she's from Albuquerque.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, 20 years ago, I had a very good French meal at a restaurant in Albuquerque that I think opened for three months and then disappeared because you can't find. Find it anywhere. And so I do have. I have fond memories of pulling, flying into Albuquerque, going to this restaurant, and then driving on to Santa Fe. But that's my only. That's my only positive.

[Abe Greenwald]

What I understand is Santa Fe is beautiful. Albuquerque is the place where when you exit your plane, you're immediately greeted by Breaking Bad.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yes, it's your meth in Albuquerque.

[Abe Greenwald]

Any place that's advertising the meth dealer as its most Famous mythic citizen, I think might have an issue nonetheless. Why don't we start with the universities, John, because there's a whole lot of action taking place on that front.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So, interestingly enough, so the Trump administration announced that it was suspending $400 million in direct, what seemed to be direct grants from the federal government to Columbia university and reviewing $5 billion in other monies somehow connected to Columbia through the federal government. So obviously this is the first step on the road of the administration holding universities responsible for their failures to protect Jewish students under Title 6 of the Civil Rights Act. You know, sort of unequal treatment. Discrimination on the basis of. That's the complicated part. Discrimination on the basis of, I guess, religion, national origin, national origin. Although the national origin of most Jews is, of course, the United States, it's complicated Jews because there is no legal definition of what it means to be a Jew in the. The administration has now decided to take on as its definition of anti Semitism the IHRA definition of anti Semitism, which explains what is specific and unusual about antisemitism, why, therefore it can take legal action using our civil rights laws to protect Jews. Predictable outcry, including from people that I admire and respect, like Walter Olson saying there was no due process. There's a comment period. Usually when stuff like this happens, action is announced with a 30 day period of comment or allowing the affected federal recipient of funds 30 days to respond before action is taken. And so I don't really know where that falls out or doesn't fall out. I do know that it's one. Again, once again, you have one of these things where if the Biden or Obama or any administration had decided to take an action against a university for racist behavior and said, we're pulling their, their grants because of. Because clear evidence that black students had been discriminated against, I kind of doubt that anybody would have said, well, I mean, the 30 day comment period was really.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yeah, the bureaucratic response is completely unpersuasive to me at this point. It's not as if there was one incident of anti Semitism last week, and then suddenly they pulled their funding. This has been going on for a very long time. Obviously there have been, you know, threats of other lawsuits. The students have complained. This is clearly an issue. They've had plenty of time to have their little bureaucrat confab to discuss whether or not and how they can protect Jewish students.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Mike, Sorry, I had to turn my camera off for the YouTubers because I got something in my eye.

[Christine Rosen]

Okay, okay, I'm back My only, it's not, I can't say it's an area of agreement with those making those criticisms. But my only concern regarding the bureaucratic aspect is that if the administration, I'm worried that if the administration hasn't or doesn't cross its T's and dot its I's will end up with a stunt that we've all cheered on, that won't have been effective. That's my, that's where I want.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Look, this is, you have just put your finger on the problem of the Trump 2 term is it takes bold action, but it does not prepare, or it appears that it does not prepare properly for making sure that bold action sticks. And that, that is, that's something that is an overhang from the first term. They're better at it this time. But when you want to take big, when you want to take big swings, you do have this large bureaucracy, although they don't really trust a lot of their bureaucracy. But, you know, you want to make sure that you get. Yes. You want to line the ducks in a row. And, for example. So let's move on to the second.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, can I just say something about the money? I mean. Yeah, I think we'll have to see. Colombia reacted in something of a stunned fashion to this news. It has not said that there were any legal problems with the announcement. I was amazed to find that a quarter of Colombia's operating budget comes from the federal government, showing the way in which the federal government, dominated by progressives, is interconnected with our elite university system dominated by progressives. So one way of looking at this move isn't just Trump making good on his promises to combat antisemitism in the country and on campus, but also as part of his more general approach in this administration, which is to attack the institutions dominated by progressivism, whether it's the bureaucracy, whether it's the university, whether it's our foreign policy. And so this is, I think, just of a piece. It shares some of the problems that you mentioned, which is if it's not done to the letter of the law, then a lot of the good that could possibly come out of it might be negated by the courts. But I think this is a bold move. It's great. It also happened on the same day that Governor Glenn Youngkin of Virginia.

[Jon Podhoretz]

And.

[Abe Greenwald]

The Board of Governors of the University of Virginia eliminated DEI at uva. So this is the, this is the counter revolution.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right?

[Abe Greenwald]

This is what happens after the four years of George Floyd and Joe Biden, and we're in the midst of it. And for those of us who opposed what's been happening on campus, this is a good thing.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right. So let's talk about the second major action at Colombia, which is. Which is even. Which is just as important as the first, although it's much on a much smaller scale. Right. It's not $400 million. It was the ice arriving to take into custody one Mahmoud Khalil, who helped lead the protests, the pro Palestinian protests at Columbia beginning in 2023. As a graduate student, he is here on a green card. He is married to an American citizen. They arrived at what is called Columbia housing. Though he has graduated, he is still living in Columbia housing, which is nice for him. Maybe his wife is still a student at Columbia, I don't know, and took him into custody. His lawyer claims that the ICE agents who took him into custody, when he handed, when Khalil handed the agent his phone to talk to his lawyer said that he was being brought in for. This gets complicated because I had this down and now I've already forgotten for overstaying his student visa.

[Matthew Continetti]

But he, but he's a green card holder.

[Jon Podhoretz]

He's not here on a student visa, Right?

[Matthew Continetti]

Yeah.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So that was obviously a blunder on the part of the agent, who must have been rattled to be talking to a lawyer in that way. Then Trisha McLaughlin, the spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, said, no, this was about his actions relating to anti Semitism and that he had violated terms of Trump's executive orders regarding anti Semitism. More importantly, I would say, is the idea that he. People are outraged because he is a green card holder and therefore is being denied some form of due process to green card holders. Except that the green card is, of course, not American citizenship. It is a pathway or a way station to American citizenship. And in all pathways to American citizenship, there is no margin. I mean, if you get arrested for a drunk driving ticket, your status can be revoked. There is you. If you, if you, you know, if you jaywalk, your stat, your status can be revoked. It is not. You have certain, you have due process rights like everybody in. Even certain illegals have due process rights in certain ways. But, but green card status is not a get into America free card and stay in America forever card. That's why it's a. That's why it's a way station to the point at which you are considered a citizen and under all kinds of national security provisions regarding the idea of whether or not somebody should determined or classified as an enemy of the United States in some fashion or Other, this would be one of them. And I remind people that one of the ways in which the federal government has dealt over the course of the last 70 years with Mafiosi is to deport them. Most recently the husband of one of the Real Housewives of New Jersey, Teresa Giudice's husband, who was literally deported back to, back to Palermo or Parma or somewhere either in Italy or Sicily after getting into, after having highlighted getting into trouble because the feds turned their eye on him because his wife had decided to go on this reality show. So this is, this is a, this is a, an arrow in the quiver of American law enforcement.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah. And I mean another, I think bold, good move by the Trump administration to get at the sources of the campus anti Semitism. We note that it is someone who, you know, was not born in the United States. He's here on a student visa now. He has a green card. He's using his time as his graduate student to promote terrorism, to promote Hezbollah. That was part of the literature that he was handing out Hezbollah playing cards for all the leaders. And he should go.

[Matthew Continetti]

Well, and it's an opportunity, if the Trump administration seizes it, to do a really thorough investigation of who was sponsoring him, who, if anyone from overseas was funding him. That's where it doesn't matter. I mean, even if he was an American citizen and he was using terrorist sponsored money and material, he would, he would be facing similar criminal charges. So yeah, no sympathy for him. Can attest that most graduate students don't have enough money to be doing a side hustle promoting terrorism like most of us were holding down like multiple jobs. But I guess he's, you know, got some special fellowship at Columbia. And I would hope that what this would do is be shot across the bow for Students of Justice in Palestine, which has chapters all over campuses in this country that are still stirring up trouble regularly. And for them to have a real thoughtful discussion about whether and how and who supports their movement on campus. Because if they are getting support from terrorism abroad, they should be shut down and they should be removed from every college campus.

[Christine Rosen]

And can I just say I want to announce that I have switched my position on AI. I am now pro AI because the administration said it's going to be, it's going to use AI to find more such students to be able to identify them and deport them as well.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, I'm glad, I'm glad to see that the real world applications of, of these matters, once we get beyond the theoretical, can have a complicating or Layering effect.

[Matthew Continetti]

It's very good at searching massive amounts of data very quickly. Yes.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Now there is. If you listen to the talk of people who are horrified or frightened or whatever by the. By this act, you will see the term chilling effect. This is going to have a chilling effect on speech. Of course. These protests are a form of speech and this will have a chilling effect on them. Yeah, we want this to be a chilling effect. We want this to stop. We Jews in the United States want the anti Semitic activity on college campuses to stop. We want the people who are doing it to be scared. We want them to be frightened if they are foreigners, that they are going to be deported and never allowed back in this country. And we want, if they are American citizens and do things that violate the law, to fear that the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks. That is what has happened over the last 16 months is that we have been sent on the run. And now it appears that somebody has our back. And it is time for those people for whom people have been bending over backwards to respect their rights or what is deemed to be their rights, to have the fear in their bellies that a Jewish kid with a kippah has when he walks across the UCLA campus. Hey, everybody, look who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury doesn't mean I can always afford it. Not with three private school and college tuitions. Then I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. People know this, by the way, because they come up to me on the street if they recognize me from the podcast and say, is that a Quint sweater? And I'm like, yeah, it is. And I'm also wearing a Quint's puffer jacket. I'm wearing a Quince shirt. I'm wearing all kinds of quince materials. Ever since Quince started advertising, I have become a fanatical Quince customer. It offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach, like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from 50 bucks, washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters and 14 karat gold jewelry. The best part, all quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quints.com commentary for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com commentary to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com commentary what does the future hold for business? You know, if you ask nine experts, you're going to get 10 answers. A bull market, a bear market, rates rising, rates falling, inflation's going up, infl going down. You need a crystal ball. But of course there is no crystal ball. And that's why 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle. The number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing your books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards, more time on what's next. If this were the kind of product commentary needed, we would take it in a heartbeat. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and sees your biggest opportunities. And speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com commentary the guide is free to you at netsuite.com commentary netsuite.com commentary But.

[Matthew Continetti]

I don't, we, we don't want to have a chilling effect on college administrators. What we want them to do is to rouse themselves from their slumber and their ignorance of what was obviously going on on their campus. So make statements any longer, like one of the college administrators did, telling Jewish students, well, just don't wear your Jewish stuff if you want to walk around out in public, you know, because you're kind of drawing attention to yourself. Those sorts of things had been mainstreamed for the last, for, for more than a year. So we do, I actually want them to become more activists in protecting Jewish students and Jewish students, right? To walk around a campus wearing a kippah at the same time that I think, look, these are not, people are not going to get arrest, arrested if they were running around tearing down hostage posters, that's their right to be horrible human beings. That is not illegal in this country. But if they are actively promoting violence.

[Jon Podhoretz]

If they are shutting down, I'm not.

[Matthew Continetti]

Sure that's well, vandalism, right? Well, but if, I mean, look, we're not going to go around rounding up people who did that? I think they're terrible and I would love to see them face them, but.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I'm not sure it's not illegal.

[Matthew Continetti]

Right. But I mean, look, you're allowed, you're allowed to stand on a college campus, organize under the rules of your campus to, to oppose Israel's policies in Gaza. You can do that. That's not going to change. But this is actually something separate. And I. The free speech argument strikes me as trying to. A distinction between kids facing violent threats and being told to hide in their dorms versus, you know, the, the right to still have some sort of protest that follows the rules of your campus. So I don't. That's where the free speech people really annoy me because we all understand I'm very pro free speech. There's a very big distinction between threatening violence against someone and, and gathering outside places where Jewish students meet or try to go to the library and threatening them with violent language and having a protest.

[Abe Greenwald]

And if the university administrators understood that distinction, we wouldn't be in this position because they would have clamped down on the harassment and the conduct immediately and the trespassing and the vandalism and the bullying all at once. But they don't get it. I don't. I mean, they're not going to change their tune. That's why you need this external force to apply pressure.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

In order to solve the problem.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So first, the pressure was being applied, right, in the period after October 7th by donors. Right. Bill Ackman, Cliff Asmus, Cliff Asness, the guy who owns the Philadelphia 76ers, whose name I can't, Josh somebody, various people who said, I'm not giving. That's it. No more money. No more money for you. Robert Kraft, others. So that was the private. That was the voting with your feet or voting with your dollars to say your behavior is unspeakable. And let's see how you do without us. Now we have the question of whether or not the force of law can be brought to bear. Here we published this remarkable article by Danielle Pletka last summer enumerating the ways in which the federal government and state governments and others can use existing law to combat this war on Jews in the United States and particularly on campuses. And it's not just that administrators aren't going to do anything. They recruited these students, the ones that are students. And of course, one of the things.

[Matthew Continetti]

There's a lot of money, yes.

[Jon Podhoretz]

But one of the things that has. We. We discovered last week or that. Or that Columbia Barnard announced last week is that the majority of people who were protesting at Barnard were not, in fact Barnard students. So that's a. That's a big thing where someone's opening the gates, letting people in to be a kind of rent a mob.

[Abe Greenwald]

And that's what happened at the Tentifada too, right?

[Jon Podhoretz]

Exactly. Okay, so. But my point is that the leaders of these encampments and everything, they are admitted students admitted by the admissions office. And my guess is not that I'm allowed to see their essays, that their activism on behalf of peace and Palestine might well have been a feature of some of their personal statements.

[Matthew Continetti]

This undergrad at Columbia University who got into Columbia, riding the wave of Black Lives Matter activism as a high school student, got to Colombia, became a raging anti Semitic, threatening violence against Jewish students. And he was, you know, he was suspended. They sat there and nuanced his punishment when what he should have been, they should have just kicked him out.

[Abe Greenwald]

At Columbia, in particular, with Rashid Khalidi, Joseph Mossad, that department has one purpose, and that is to delegitimize, demonize, and apply double standards to the. To the state of Israel.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right?

[Abe Greenwald]

That's the definition of anti Semitism.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So we, of course, have two forms of admissions department. Right? You have undergraduate admissions. So undergraduate admissions is done centralized by a centralized office. And, you know, from what we understand, students who write essays, personal statements that say things like, I'm involved in activism. I believe in activism. That is viewed favorably by a lot of the admissions officers wherever they are, as opposed to students who say, what I really want to do is learn ancient Greek. Like golf. You're boring. Right. Or golf. Right. Okay, so that's one admissions office. And then you have individual departments and their graduate students, right, who are admitted under. Under different auspices. Those. Those aren't. That's not. Those are. They are admitted by committees of those departments sponsored by faculty office. And who. And who do they want? Who does Joseph Mossad want? Who does Rashid Khalidi, Little Joseph Massad, and who. Who do? The intersectionality professors in the studies departments, the gender studies, the ethnic studies. Who do they want?

[Abe Greenwald]

The next Ibram Kendi.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah, exactly. So they are bringing on to campus. They are importing cancer into their campus by choice and receiving federal money, quarter of the budget. I mean, it is beyond belief. And of course, this then dovetails with a lot of the crying and screaming and rending of garments relating to the suspension of the grant money at cabinet departments, particularly hhs, and the money being given out by the National Institutes of Health and Mental Health and all of that where, you know, everything was sort of frozen in place until, until these programs could be subjected to some scrutiny. And of course, there are now daily stories in the New York Times and elsewhere about how people are literally dying. Because 47 days ago, because 40 days ago somebody said, okay, we're just suspending some of this money. Like most of that money wasn't already in the pipeline or already wasn't in the bank accounts of everybody who has it. Don't believe what you're reading. These are propagandistic.

[Abe Greenwald]

I mean, it's the same people who are telling us that Gaza was suffering from a famine. And then we see the photos at the death rallies and Gazans look pretty healthy to me.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah. So my point is that there is a full, there's a multi front war. And the idea is the Trump administration is crazy and reckless and mean and horrible and authoritarian. And it's taking money away from. It's literally taking cancer drugs out of the mouths of baby leukemia patients and like that. And don't believe what you're reading. You cannot believe these are, this is a war, this is a propaganda war that is being waged against this effort. I am sure that it's being done problematically. And that's where the dotting the I's and the crossing the T's comes in.

[Christine Rosen]

Because, yeah, if anything, it's, it's that they're not taking, they won't end up taking money away from any of the targets or enough targets.

[Jon Podhoretz]

It's not that they're. Or they'll be denied the right to do the courts, which will find, which will find that they have misled.

[Abe Greenwald]

I will draw a distinction though, between Musk and Doge and kind of the consciously blunderbuss technique that Musk has said he uses. Right. Musk wants to stop everything and pare down to the bone any new acquisition so that he has, so that he knows what is necessary to operate the business. So when Doge comes in and they start canceling all these contracts, they start sending out the five things that you did last week emails, they start firing the probationary employees. All of that is part of Elon Musk's approach to acquiring a new entity. The entity in this case happens to be the United States government. And so there's a lot of, you know, hysteria and, and, you know, I mean, worthy criticism of what he's doing. It is the government. What's happening in Colombia and what Leo Torello is doing at DOJ seems to be a little bit more strategic and a little Bit more planned out than Doge, which, again, the whole purpose of Doge is to kind of rattle the box to see what, what you actually need inside of it.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Whereas this.

[Abe Greenwald]

Going after the Columbia, launching the investigation, what happened last week with doj, into the UC system and its treatment of Jewish students, ice going after the student, the graduate student who was behind a lot of this stuff on Columbia. That I think is a slightly different category and may actually be a little bit more immune from some of the lawsuits we've seen on the Doge side.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I believe that's right. I just think that the. The initial execution where the ICE agent who did the arrest did not actually understand.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, he shouldn't have talked to the lawyer. I mean.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

That seems like just a mistake.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, why is the ICE agent talking to the guy's lawyer on a cell phone? That doesn't make any sense to me.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I know, because he was, he was rattled, right. And was, of course, executing an order that they had never executed before in settings that is not exactly the settings that an ICE agent would ordinarily find himself in, like the lobby of a student, a building of student housing in Morningside Heights. I don't think that's usually where they conduct their, their raids or where they take people into custody. So he was probably a little intimidated or a little nervous or didn't know what kind of situation he was in and was trying, trying to be civil, right. Or trying to sort of do things in a manner that would not create a disturbance. And so he said what came into his head to say, which was not. Which was not correct. And here the administration is singing from the same hymnal, which I think is important. You mentioned Leo Terrell. Marco Rubio made a statement that said, we are going to use the powers of foreign policy, powers of the executive branch, which are extensive and which relate to national security, to say that there are threats inside the United States from foreign nationals who are material supporters of terrorism and that terrorism, remember Hezbollah and Hamas, both have killed Americans by the scores. Right now Hamas is holding an American hostage and get to this part of the blunderbuss behavior of the administration in a second. And so there's no question that doing things that would advance the aims Hamas or Hezbollah is an act that come. That is contradictory not only to the safety of, to the furtherance of American national interests, but to the safety of Americans currently who are in extreme circumstances.

[Matthew Continetti]

And we know, let's not forget George Mason University had some arrests of three students, clearly a terrorist cell on campus. I Mean, this is no joke. Like they were planning a violent attack against Jewish students and against targets in Washington. So, yeah, it's a serious thing.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah. First of all, this is not, you know, COINTELPRO. This is not the 1960s and they're, you know, hippies protesting on campus and J. Edgar Hoover wants files on them. It's not with, let's not go bad on Cohen.

[Abe Greenwald]

Cointelpro, that's a pretty cool story, but.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Okay, no, no, but what, what I'm bringing this up only to say that what happened was that for 16 months or 14 months or whatever the length October, October 7 through November 5, or as long as the Biden administration survived the terrorist students were getting the benefit of the doubt in terms of the law being on their side both on campus, in terms of campus law, the rules of these private institutions and the federal government and a lot of blue state cities. Right. Blue cities, which were saying, well, we're not allowed to do anything. This is speech.

[Abe Greenwald]

And you know, I think you can look at what happened at Barnard last week as a test, the same way that rogue states test new presidents. I mean, just forget about Ukraine, Russia for, for a second. Think about what China is doing in Taiwan and circumnavigating Australia last week with PLA naval ships. Right? That's clearly. They're testing the anti Semitic movement on campus. The pro Hamas movement on campus was testing with Barnard. Would Trump do what he has said that he was going to do to fight these students and to fight this larger network that is funding them and organizing them. And I think what we saw in recent weeks is the Trump administration is serious about this. And so I hope the people behind this movement get it, that it's not going to be easy street. And on Colombia in particular, you know, think about what Colombia has been through since October 7th and since the Hamasniks showed up on campus, the Tantifada, Manouch, Shafiq, they lost the president. There are more disruptions. They have these faculty members who are anti Semitic radicals. Now they're facing, they face the donor pressure. Now they're facing the pressure from the federal government. And I will say if this doesn't work, the Carthaginian option may be the only one remaining. And I say that as a Columbia graduate, I just. This, this place may be beyond saving.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Delenda est? I just, you know, Carthago delenda est? Okay, so by the way, we've talked about this before, months and months and months and months ago, but Columbia of course behaved abominably or badly or weakly. When it was overtaken in 1968 by student radicals who occupied the president's office for a year and, you know, basically disrupted. Had disrupted the campus for a year and did nothing. And out of that partially came the weathermen who blew up a house in Greenwich Village while they were making bombs to set off at military recruitment centers. Columbia's reputation in the United States fell precipitously. Right. It was one of the top three universities in the country. And by the time I was applying to College in 1978, it had a 25% admission rate like, or. Or very high. It was not hard to get into Columbia.

[Abe Greenwald]

It was also New York City was not in the best condition.

[Jon Podhoretz]

That was one aspect. But the other aspect was it had an odor about it among ordinary Americans whose kids were being sent to college. And the odor was, this place is troubled. Bad things happen there. I'm not even sure I even remember what they were, but I don't want my kid there. City's not safe and the campus is weird and they let these people overrun the administration, and that's not a place I want my kid to go. And it took another 15 years for Columbia to restore its reputation. It really. I mean, I don't have it in front of me. But if you looked at what was the Precursor to the U.S. news & World Report rankings, you know, sort of these books that you would get when you were.

[Abe Greenwald]

Two things, John. I mean, it was Giuliani, right. And then it was David Denby's book.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Great books, Great Admissions, a great book.

[Abe Greenwald]

Where he spent a year going through the core curriculum he had taken, which came out like two years into the Giuliani term.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

And I think those two things may have rehabilitated Colombia, at least in the Continenti household.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Fair enough. But I'm just saying that these things have long term consequences. Colombia is doing extraordinary damage to itself, not just because it's gonna have this financial crisis, which of course is really bad, but what's happened over the last year means that there are people who they might want to have as students, who they are, who are not going to apply there anymore and are not going to want to go there, and professors that they want to recruit who are not going to want to teach there and not going to want to live there and not going to want to have to deal with that world.

[Christine Rosen]

So I'll also add to that you do yourself harm as an institution, as a country, as a whatever, when you make yourself an inhospitable place to Jews because it is a simple statistical fact that Jews are overrepresented in successful realms of all sorts at the highest echelons of all sorts of realms in the US and free countries. And if you don't.

[Abe Greenwald]

Let's not turn into the Joe Rogan podcast here, Abe.

[Jon Podhoretz]

No, no, I'm kidding.

[Christine Rosen]

No, no, no, I'm saying it openly.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Go ahead.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah.

[Christine Rosen]

No, no, no. It's just a statistical fact. So if you don't want to recruit those future impressive graduates, then good for you. See how that goes.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, I think your first point there was an essential Ruth Weiss point that she's made many, many times, which is when antisemitism appears, where it appears is headed for decline rapidly. And the fact that it's on these campuses shows that the university system as we know it is headed toward combustion.

[Matthew Continetti]

And there's. And the, the revocation of funding from the federal government might have the possibility of doing one other thing. We saw the very big donors, you know, immediately post October 7th, pull their money and say, until you get your campus in order, I'm not, I'm not investing in you as an institution, but you have a whole lot of parents paying tuition to some of these schools. They get some breaks from the school through federal grants and whatnot. And those students who are not activists, my son hangs out with some of them at Barnard, actually, they were talking about this over the weekend. You know, they just want to go to class. They want to do their thing. They want to, they want to have a college experience. Their parents are paying a pretty penny for them to have that experience. If they're blocked from going to the library often enough, if their campus becomes a place of turmoil, even if you're a non Jewish student. But your, your parents are paying all this money and tuition, you should rouse yourself from your slumber and demand of the institution, hey, get your house in order. My kid can't go to his class. My, My daughter was at the library and couldn't study because of all these activists. That's. There's a whole silent, you know, group of parents and students who are just kind of keeping their heads down for now. But that is not a sustainable posture at some of these institutions.

[Jon Podhoretz]

By the way, one reason you should be watching us on YouTube is that I did turn off my camera once because I had something in my eye and I just had to fix my collar. So you are, you're getting, you're getting fantastic visual content showing. Well, I'm just showing the sky blue background that we had a Thai blue Background. But I do want to point out that if you look behind me on the YouTube, what you will see is, I just want you to know, you will see album covers. I'm very proud of these because I get them at these secondhand stores. I just got. Got one in Brattleboro, Vermont. I got Engelbert Humperdink. I got the comedian Pat Cooper. I've got Elvis's soundtrack to the movie, a roustabout Al Jolson. And then my newest find, Eddie Fisher's Greatest Hits, purchased this weekend in Brattleboro, Vermont, for $2. Eddie Fisher, of course, being the man who most famously tragically dumped America's sweetheart, Debbie Reynolds, for Elizabeth Taylor, and then was cuckolded by Richard Burton.

[Matthew Continetti]

I call that karma.

[Jon Podhoretz]

But karma doesn't even begin. Anyway, there's all kinds of interesting visual things to Carrie Fisher's dad, Carrie Fisher's dad, to enjoy here on the YouTube channel, including, as I say, things like where I have to button my collar button because I. One was buttoned and one was not. Anyway, that's just a promotion to watch us on the Commentary magazine Channel on. On YouTube in K in. As opposed to just, just, just listening. Matt has a little calendar. Abe has this crazy painting you can't really see. Christine has the starkest. It's as though she is in an Ingmar Bergman movie.

[Abe Greenwald]

I think it's angelic.

[Matthew Continetti]

Thank you. Thank you. That's the look I'm going for the.

[Abe Greenwald]

Clouds and the heavens.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Okay, so let's talk about where the administration seems to be behaving like amateur hour or worse. So we've already had the spectacle of Trump's friend Steve Witkoff becoming his favorite hostage hostage negotiator going around and insulting people and talking stupid. And now there's another guy who has been appointed a hostage negotiator at the State Department, named Adam Bowler, a former healthcare executive who was also a did a summer program with Jared Kushner during college, which apparently is his in to the administration. And he is now our hostage negotiator at the State Department in some fashion or other. And he spent the weekend embarrassing the United States, shaming himself, shaming his people, as he is a fellow Jewish, talking about how he believes Hamas has reason to be responsible and sober, and how Hamas, you know, there's very interesting ideas being floated at these negotiations, and America is not Israel's agent. And he believes that there's really a deal can be struck in the next couple of weeks. Then he called the Israeli hostages prisoners, thus paralleling Them with the Palestinian prisoners that Hamas is negotiating for and in general, humiliating, embarrassing himself and giving Hamas some sense that there was air in their lungs because there was a moron in the United States who was essentially taking their side, going on Jake Tapper show. So much so that last night he had to go on on Twitter and say, yes, I think Hamas is very bad. Because of course, because he's a negotiator. You see negotiators. You know, we've seen this over the course of years. Like when, you know, when.

[Abe Greenwald]

Let's back up for a second. Yes, because I think what we've seen from prior to the inauguration is that the American strategy is different than the Israeli strategy. When we first got the report that Witkoff, who is one of the most powerful people in the administration, went and interrupted Netanyahu on Shabbat in order to get him to agree to the ceasefire plan, you got the sense that Wyckoff didn't really care about the niceties of the U. S. Israel relationship. He was on a mission. The mission was to get the hostages out, in particular the American ones. And then we see this news last week that a separate line of direct US Hamas talks had started with this guy Bowler leading them with the Hamas interlocutor. Again, a sign, I think, that the US and the Israel objectives diverge slightly. The main objective, it seems to me from the US Is to free a Don Alexander, who is the remaining living American citizen among the hostages. And I believe that is why they're pursuing this in many ways. Reckless negotiation direct with Hamas in order to get Adan out as part of the next release. And that is, I. I don't know where the administration goes after that.

[Jon Podhoretz]

By the way. So I have. Look, Israel and the United States can have diverging interests here. And if there is a negotiating posture that the United States wishes to take to isolate on and get released Don Alexander, it is within its rights and we are within our rights as a sovereign nation with interests that differ from Israel's in doing so. If we are negotiating a raid on Alexander using Israel's holding of Palestinian prisoners as part of the bargaining chip, then that is not our own game. Right. That's part of the. We're negotiating with Israel's chips. We're playing Israel's chips.

[Abe Greenwald]

The one. Right. I mean, the one place where there's a gray area. And while I do, like I said, I believe the American objective is really focused on Alexander, we also hear from the administration this idea that there would be one release of the remaining living hostages. And in exchange for that, then you would have some concessions from Israel, probably these Palestinian murderers and terrorists who should never step outside of the jail cell. So there, it seems sometimes like this is the confusing part, at least to me. It. Sometimes it seems like us and Israel are aiming for the same objective, which is to get all the living hostages out. Of course, that's what Trump has said. That was part of the Shalom Hamas post. And then other times, when I see these moves like we saw from Bowler over the past 72 hours, they think, well, what they really want is just Alexander.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Where this diverges is that Trump is way more hawkish in language and terminology and all that than Bibi is. Not just than Witkoff and Buller are, but where Bibi is. Bibi is in a. Is in a Scylla and Charybdis trap, which is he has got to go and finish this war. And the hostage families who have immense power inside Israel do not want. Are willing to see the war ended inconclusively if they can get the family, if they can get their. Their people back. And they're protesting him, they're thanking Trump and they're protesting Bibi and Bibi to get as many hostages out as he possibly can before he has to restart the war. The problem is that as this time stretches out, Israel's threats start sounding hollow and. And he starts seeming weak. And America starts giving Hamas hope that it can weasel out of its fate. And the language that Bowler used on the talk shows was a catastrophe. He called Palestinian prisoners hostages and he called Israeli hostages prisoners. Do you know why? Because he doesn't know what he. Because he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's a guy in health care. He got this job because he went to college. He had a college summer with Jared. He was part of various commissions. He did some stuff in the first Trump term. For some reason, he got this job. He's never been before the press. As far as I can tell, no one's ever heard of him. Like, I've talked to like five or six different people, senior people who are in senior positions, foreign policy positions in the Trump administration, dealing with things like hostage negotiations during the first Trump administration, who have never heard of him. I mean, I'm not going to say who they are, but trust me when I tell you that it's like, what? Who is this guy? And he goes on TV and gives Hamas two weeks of renewed life and the ability to torture prisoners by saying, I think we could have a deal in A couple of weeks, Hamas is going to see reason. I mean, they have reason to think that maybe there's a way out. And apparently one of the ways out that he offered was a five year gap, a five year demilitarization. They leave and they agree not to do anything for five years. What the hell are you talking about?

[Abe Greenwald]

I think J.D. vance wants that.

[Jon Podhoretz]

No, but I mean, what the hell on earth. What the hell are you talking about? You're negotiating with Hitler. Oh, you know what Hitler, you said, we'll let you leave the bunker and then you can come back like, like Napoleon. You can come back from exile in five years and take over Gaza again. How about that? This is the world of the. I'm a negotiator. So everything is on the table.

[Abe Greenwald]

You know what, interesting. I know I don't want to read too closely into the tea leaves here, but it's interesting that they have Adam Bowler doing the direct Hamas line, not Wyckoff. Maybe Wyckoff is like, I don't want that. I want to deal with that trap. Yeah, I got to do the more general talks with the Qataris and Bibi.

[Jon Podhoretz]

But look at. So Trump over the weekend said Gutter is going to have to answer for supporting terrorism. Well, you're absolutely right.

[Abe Greenwald]

Trump, Trump is in one place on this. And the problem is that Netanyahu, I don't want to say it's the problem, but you're absolutely right that where Trump is is very different than where Netanyahu feels he needs to be. And meanwhile, you have Wyckoff and Boller trying to get the release of these captive of the hostages, which has a significant political base inside Israel. It's a four way game here.

[Jon Podhoretz]

But the game is, and this, again, this is something that should concern people of goodwill who are hopeful that the Trump administration can be this transformational administration that will set America on a new kind of governmental course, which is you have to be good at the game. You can't just announce that you have a new strategy and you're going to knock hell and you're going to do this and you're going to do that. Like, it's not that the devil is in the details necessarily. It's that when you aren't singing from the same hymnal or don't have a strategy in place or you're having private negotiations, the details of which are leaking out in public, everybody needs to be on the same page. I'm sure that what Bowler is saying is what Rubio doesn't want or Waltz or J.D. vance. Right. I mean, yes, J.D. vance does not want a revivified Hamas returning to Gaza during his first term in office. After Trump retires or whatever, he's off on his own, like throwing things out at the table, throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. But you can't do that with evil. I'm sorry. Like, this is not like, I want to put you in a car today. What do I have to do to put you in the car?

[Christine Rosen]

With that in mind, there's another concerning element, I think that's been added to the mix, which is that Trump has said that he wrote a letter to Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei proposing negotiations about a nuclear deal there, which Khamenei.

[Abe Greenwald]

Denied over the weekend. He said, we're not doing any negotiations.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Christine Rosen]

And this is concerning because of the way Trump signals how he wants to approach strong men and problematic regimes. I fear his eagerness to get some sort of win, something he can call a win during his, during his presidency, you know, like the five year Hamas plan or something. He may look to do that over and over. And regarding Iran, this is another potential area of divergence between long term US And Israeli approaches.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Well, it's also our pro. I mean, the thing is that the policy hasn't changed. Trump says Iran cannot be allowed to get a nuclear weapon and we will not allow that to happen. So if he sends him a letter that says, let's negotiate, and Khamenei responds by saying, I'm not negotiating, that has a, that could. You could look at that as having a clarifying effect. Yeah, I gave it a shot, you know. Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

Trump was talking about it in the Oval Office on Friday. He said, yeah, there's two ways this can happen, through a negotiation. Or as he put it, the other way. If Khamenei is the same as he's been for five years and says, I'm through with the Americans, I don't want to negotiate anymore. Enough. Well, it's one thing with the Biden administration. They're like, okay, you're sure about that? Trump may take a different approach and say, okay, you had your chance.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I mean, look, Khamenei could have followed the Kim Jong un pattern and written Trump some really, really beautiful letters. Letters. They're so beautiful, you wouldn't believe it. The beauty of the letters, so heartwarming. The correspondence that he had.

[Abe Greenwald]

Well, and by the way, that's similar to what Putin does. Putin is always telling Trump how smart he is and common sense that they use that. Apparently Putin used that Exact phrase in one of the phone conversations. So.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right.

[Abe Greenwald]

He knows that this is how you can appeal to Trump and get him to work with you. And Khamenei is definitely not that.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right. Because Khamenei believes.

[Abe Greenwald]

Revolutionary ideologue who wants to impose Islamism.

[Jon Podhoretz]

On the world and death to America.

[Abe Greenwald]

Exactly.

[Jon Podhoretz]

That's not just an empty slogan. Not for him, shall we say. Do we have anything we want to say for like 30 seconds?

[Matthew Continetti]

I do. I have one thing, I think just to circle back to our earlier discussion of antisemitism on campus. We also need to talk about some of the anti Semitism in popular culture right now with people like Theo Vaughn and Candace Owen and others going on these podcasts and just ranting and conspiracy theorizing and every. And the response being, I think, rather muted to what they're doing because their messaging is reaching a very young and kind of politically disengaged, but very open to seemingly alternative ideas and alternative histories. And that really concerns me because that's a broad swath of the youth of this country, not all of whom will end up going to college, but many of whom are coming of age, listening to the kind of thing for which there is very little pushback in the media diet that they consume. So that's actually an area where, you know, Theo Vaughn in particular is interesting because he's had rabbis on to discuss anti Semitism, but then he has.

[Abe Greenwald]

He had Candace Owens on his show.

[Matthew Continetti]

He had Candace Owens on his show.

[Abe Greenwald]

He's not going around saying these things.

[Matthew Continetti]

Has obviously been a problem for a much, much longer stretch of time. But. But the mainstreaming of anti Semitic conspiracy theory is something that I think if you're conservative, you should be deeply, deeply concerned about. And a lot of it's.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Mainstreaming is the right term. It's popularizing or it is getting this message out because it's not mainstream. Right.

[Matthew Continetti]

It's becoming mainstream. That's my concern.

[Jon Podhoretz]

There is no mainstream. Like, that's part of the story here is that there is now this. There are these tributaries or river or, you know, different streams of information. Right. And there is no main. So, Tucker, Candace, you know, the. Whoever it is that wants the. Tate wanted Andrew Tate to be released back, to be freed in the United States. A lot of those people are. They are speaking into a void because there's no one else in that stream, like even the people who are in that stream who are very much, deeply ideologically opposed to that sort of expression. Right. Like Ben Shapiro himself, an Orthodox Jew and passionate scientist and Spokesman against anti Semitism, left Breitbart for this very reason and started his own business for that reason. He's already now in a different tributary. So they're in their own market, and I don't know how you enter that market.

[Abe Greenwald]

I do agree with Christine on this, which is that we just went through this election cycle where one of the main lessons was the power of these podcasters, in particular, Joe Rogan. And so it was disturbing to have Rogan host an anti Semite the other week. And apparently now he's planning to host another anti Semite, the World War II revisionist who became famous for his appearance on Tucker. So to the degree that these are influential platforms for this type of ideology, it is disturbing. I'm still trying to get like a level check on it, though. What does it say about the real world of politics and policy? There's always, it seems to me, a certain amount of antisemitism, anti Semitic belief or prejudice going on in most people's heads who aren't Jews. Is this simply a reflection of that or is it something much more sinister?

[Matthew Continetti]

So that I think we have to think of this. And the reason I think it's important to bring it up separate from politics is that it's a cultural thing that's bubbling along. And you're right, Mat, it's always bubbled along, but what it's doing now is introducing an entirely new generation to these ideas uncritically, in fact, enthusiastically, under this rubric of, well, we're just asking questions, we're just looking at things that they haven't told you. And it. And it. And I just know this from talking to lots of young people who are otherwise not primed to be anti Semitic in any way going. They'll just say things like, where did you hear that? Is that true? Why do you believe that? And it's fascinating to trace the cultural stream there. And that's where, yeah, I don't know how to fight back, but I just.

[Christine Rosen]

Joe Rogan is bad and he's been bad because he has long hosted anyone with some degree of cultural popularity, no matter how fringy their theory, no matter how conspiratorial. And it's all with the attitude of, well, nothing is off limits. And I want to hear all sides. And all of these conspiracy theories and all these fringe theories lead toward hating the Jews eventually. Not even that eventually. And each one takes on a life of its own. Post Rogan on Twitter, on X and wherever else, and on other podcasts. And it's all. And the thing that Rogan has done here is he's made it all kind of fun. It's like, was there? Did we really land on the moon? That's exciting. Are there. Are there aliens? Are there ghosts? Do Jews control everything? I'm just.

[Jon Podhoretz]

I just.

[Christine Rosen]

I heard about this. I heard about that. I just want to know. It's a. And it's dumb as well, but okay.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So it's very hard to know how to combat it. Of course, one should, you know, like an ADL document is not going to do it. You know, this or that. That's not going to do it. You know what would be the best thing on earth for the to fight the scourge of anti Semitism? Israel winning the war against Hamas. Israel crushing Iran's nuclear program. Like, nothing succeeds like success. Jews looked like they were on the ropes.

[Abe Greenwald]

They were punishing anti Semitic behavior.

[Jon Podhoretz]

That's right. But Jews look like we were on the ropes after October 7th and the. The disease came out of the woodwork. And so the only way to fight back against it is success. What was the best moment for America, for world Jewry in the last 16 months? It was the successful series of operations from the assassination in Tehran to the pagers to the strike against Iran. That was where it was like, whoa, look at that. Like, I want some of that. A little bit, you know, even. Gotta hand it to them, right? Candace Owens is a grifter. If she saw that there was more money in being like, moving to the. Converting to Judaism and moving to the west bank and, you know, like, having her podcast there, that's where she would go. She has had a Pavlov's response here. Something weird has happened where she is getting more attention, more subscribers, whatever, because of her grabbing onto this extreme. There's a very interesting piece by Maxwell Taney on Semaphore this morning about what are called the cutie servatives. That is these young women who are now part of the podcasting ecosystem. Podcasting ecosystem, we were told during 2024 was all male. Right. It's always all for Mal and Rogan being the capo to 2D copy, but now you have Brett Cooper. They're a bunch of women and they have big audiences and they are not going. And Candace Owens again, also is sort of part of that, but often a slightly different side. Israel's not of interest to. This is not their place. They are rfk maha paranoid about the healthcare system and COVID vaccine and vaccines and what's going in our food and all of that, and by the way, that too ends up. The vectors between that and where you get to antisemitism are also weirdly congruent in ways that I don't understand. The question is, can they be, can they be recruited? Can they be pulled off what I think is a walk down this road where they influence young women as opposed to young men in this regard? I don't know the answer to that.

[Matthew Continetti]

Well, we have, well, and we had this Under Secretary, this, this, this appointee in the Trump administration, this young woman who had posted tons of anti Semitic.

[Abe Greenwald]

Stuff and is now deputies spokesperson.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yes.

[Abe Greenwald]

Yeah, Pentagon.

[Matthew Continetti]

So actually they've already infiltrated that market and, and just to push back a little, obviously.

[Jon Podhoretz]

So she's a Nepo baby. She is the daughter.

[Matthew Continetti]

I know, but Steve Cortez idea that Israel's success will end this. I disagree. I obviously I want Israel to succeed in, in all ways, but their success is also used as an argument for further anti Semitism because then they're controlling everything, then they're too powerful, that there's really no winning. So I think, think separating the political stuff going on right now from culturally, why this is so appealing to so many people, particularly younger people who, that's what shocks me is how much of the, the sort of, I would say 18 to 30 year old cohort which never really gave much thought to anti Semitism, now suddenly is talking about the Jews in ways that are very disturbing.

[Abe Greenwald]

They don't know anything and they don't trust anyone.

[Matthew Continetti]

Yeah.

[Abe Greenwald]

And that's not my fault. The liberals did this and now we're paying the price because you have an entire generation that are, that's ignorant and, and it doesn't believe authority and the authorities that they don't trust are all liberals. And so these people come along and say, oh yeah, you know, Hitler was.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right in World War II.

[Abe Greenwald]

Oh, that's interesting because they've never heard anyone say, no, Churchill was the hero of World War II. That's how you fight it. Culturally, that's a cultural thing. I still think we have to separate what's happening in the culture from the world of politics and policy. And there, the only way to fight it is to punish antisemitism when it rears its ugly head.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Right. I think that's important. But Christine, just to push back, if Israel succeeds and it's bad and Israel fails and it's bad, I think we should try the Israel succeeds.

[Matthew Continetti]

Oh, totally agree.

[Jon Podhoretz]

It goes without saying rather than the latter because. Yeah, because we've already seen that Israel appearing to be a failure, appearing to be a victim, you know, or appearing to have like, you know, had. Had gotten on its back foot was. Was a moment of opportunity for this world to explode out.

[Abe Greenwald]

And that's. And Israel exists in order to protect Jews.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So. Well, that's fun. I'm glad we got. I'm glad.

[Matthew Continetti]

Sorry, it's just been bugging me.

[Abe Greenwald]

I'm glad we talked about it.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Fair enough. Okay. I just want to tell you guys one thing. I'm very proud. I haven't told you guys this, but so remember last week on Commentary Recommends, I recommended this mockumentary, Citizen Wiener, about this guy who runs for city council in New York City in 2021, which is sort of this letter perfect parody of a political documentary about an outsider making a run to a politician. And I heard from its director, because it's on Tubi, that there was a huge surge of interest in and viewership in Citizen Weiner as a result of our mentioning it. This is a very.

[Matthew Continetti]

Commentary gets results, but it's a pure.

[Jon Podhoretz]

Experiment in this because, of course, we were the only person in the. We were the only place in America that mentioned Citizen Wiener last week. So it was a pretty one on one test of this matter. So thank you, everybody for. I hope you liked it and I hope you like our recommendations. We don't want you to be. We don't want you to watch and see these and read these things and go, what the hell are they talking about? That was terrible like that. So I hope you liked it. Anyway, we'll be back tomorrow for a Christine and Matt. I'm John Pap oritz. Keep the.