Obey Your Master, Ticketmaster!

Summary

Episode Summary: "Obey Your Master, Ticketmaster!"

The Commercial Break | April 10, 2025
Hosts: Bryan Green & Krissy Hoadley

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the chaos, frustration, and economics behind the astronomical rise in ticket prices for concerts, live events, and sports — with the main culprit in their comedic crosshairs: the Ticketmaster/Live Nation empire and the armies of modern ticket scalpers. Bryan and Krissy blend their trademark irreverent, self-aware humor with sharp commentary, referencing both personal experiences and a CBS News investigative report, showing how the ticketing system became so hostile to ordinary fans. Along the way, they examine the role of supply and demand, the evolution of ticket brokering, and how even mid-tier acts are impacted, ultimately asking: Is there any hope for regular fans in the era of $25,000 Taylor Swift tickets?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ticket Price Insanity — How Did We Get Here?

• Personal perspective: Bryan and Krissy recount sticker shock from trying to buy tickets to major concerts (e.g., Taylor Swift) and sporting events, noting that even nosebleed seats are now costly.
  • “Every ticket that we buy is exorbitantly expensive. Because you can't get them when they go on sale at the normal price. And even at the normal price, they're exorbitantly expensive.” (18:03, Bryan)
• Even their own podcast’s live event saw massive markups — a $38 face value turned into $800 broker resale.

2. Ticketmaster & Live Nation — Villains or Scapegoats?

• Monopoly mechanics: They outline the Ticketmaster/Live Nation “vertical integration” — owning ticket sales, venues, and sometimes managing artists/tours — allowing control over nearly every step of ticketing and making it hard for competitors or independents to break in.
  • Bryan: “Ticketmaster owns Live Nation. So when they put together a concert, they say, ‘Don’t worry about it, Mr. Musician … We’ll do the promoting, we’ll sell the tickets, will manage everything…’” (20:08)
• Venue kickbacks: Many of the hated service fees go not to Ticketmaster itself, but back to venues as an incentive for exclusive partnership.
  • “Ticketmaster gives most of those fees back to the venue. It’s how Ticketmaster gets the business of the venue: they bribe them, essentially.” (39:30, Bryan)

3. CBS Report Breakdown — Anatomy of a Ticket (26:23 and onward)

• Breaking down the $70 ticket: Of a $70 ticket, artists may see as little as $10; most is split between venues, management, and various fees (29:50).
• The “solution” to shrinking profits is always to “charge fans a bit more.” (31:14, CBS)

4. Scalpers: Old School to the New MLM

• Bryan shares a personal anecdote about meeting an OG Atlanta ticket broker in the 1990s, who pioneered buying in-person and reselling, even getting tickets directly from bands or sports teams.
• Modern scalping is an industry:
  • Now pro-scalpers use bots, browser plugins, and multiple presale codes (often via shady paid tools) to lock up huge numbers of tickets the instant they go on sale. These methods are sometimes sold via “MLM-style” broker coaching businesses.
  • “People are coaching other people how to be independent ticket brokers — to take those tickets... using bots and multiple computers and IP addresses and masking systems… so you can get the ticket for Taylor Swift my daughter so desperately wants and resell it to me for thousands more.” (22:56, Bryan)
• Some brokers claim it’s a “free market,” but— as the CBS piece and Krissy emphasize — the system is rife with artificial barriers and unfair advantages.

5. Surge Pricing – Supply and Demand on Steroids

• The duo discuss the “cultural moment” aspect — e.g., Taylor Swift in her prime — but fear that live events are moving toward a model where only the wealthy or corporate clients can attend major shows, mirroring the dynamic at Disney parks or big sports events.
  • “Concerts are now becoming that way… only rich people can kind of afford it.” (32:58, Bryan)

6. Fan Experience — The Bleak Future

• Once-ubiquitous options like cheap last-minute tickets or day-of standing room are vanishing.
• Events and even artists at the mid- and lower-levels (e.g., Linkin Park without Chester Bennington, Jennifer Lopez, Black Keys) are downsizing or canceling shows due to unsustainable economics.

7. Broader Market Effects

• Festival closures and tour cancellations are becoming more frequent — unaffordable tickets mean fewer fans, so promoters can’t fill venues, which ripples down the entire entertainment food chain (62:47).
• Loyalty only goes so far: fans “feed the beast” by paying exorbitant amounts, making the next round of tickets even pricier (31:14).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why fans are left out:
  "Tickets are more expensive than ever and seemingly harder to get. I do know there's probably stuff out there that a retail fan has no shot at getting." (27:08, CBS/C)

• On the “fee explosion”:
  "They charge you $3. Fans, $3. Those were the days." (39:14, Bryan)

• On modern resale insanity:
  “Taylor Swift sixth row tickets for 15, 20, $25,000, and there's lots of people willing to pay it, why wouldn't you?” (31:31, Bryan)
  “It’s basic economics. Supply and demand.” (31:34, Krissy)

• On fake “democratization” of tickets:
  "If everybody had these tools available to them, then I would see how you could make that claim. But when you are essentially gating those tools ... then you're not democratizing it.” (57:05, Bryan)

• On Pearl Jam vs. Ticketmaster:
  “They would only sell tickets through their own … fan club or whatever… but they were losing money at a huge clip. When they were the biggest band in rock and roll, they were losing money.” (41:07, Bryan)

• On face value exchanges and morality:
  “I would turn down every check that got sent to me by a StubHub or Vivid Seats or any of these guys because I think what they're doing is — I mean, I think it’s disgusting.” (66:13, Andrew McMahon from Something Corporate)

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Key Timestamps

• [02:22] — The "basic economics" of ticket resale begin; personal anecdotes on ticket costs
• [08:40] — Their own live event's ticket markup shock
• [10:07] — Linkin Park’s fraught attempt to return without Chester Bennington; bigger artists forced to downsize tours
• [17:06] — Why venues and airlines must now sell out for financial viability
• [26:23] — Start of CBS News investigative report summary
• [31:31] — Taylor Swift ticket prices and the "would you resell for a huge profit" dilemma
• [39:30] — Venue fee-sharing exposed; Ticketmaster’s “real” customer is the venue, not the fan
• [41:07] — Pearl Jam’s anti-Ticketmaster battle
• [53:54] — Brokers admit most fans have no shot at buying popular tickets during public on-sale
• [55:21] — Sneak peek at broker-exclusive tech (plugins, pre-sale access)
• [57:05] — Debate over whether “democratizing” ticketing is even possible
• [62:47] — Impact: Festivals close, mid-level artists can't tour, industry shrinkage
• [66:13] — Artist stands up to StubHub/secondary market
• [69:13] — Wrap-up: “No answers, just more questions”

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Tone & Originality

Throughout, Bryan and Krissy maintain their signature banter: self-deprecating (“I did that all in my head. Except I didn’t add a zero.”), gleeful cynicism, personal asides, and running in-jokes (fake infomercial ads, MLM cracks, riffing on their “independence” as a podcast, and frequent digs at the Ticketmaster hierarchy). The CBS news segment is respected but constantly interrupted for humorous commentary and relatable anecdotes.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The pricing madness is the result of a “perfect storm” — monopoly power, convoluted deals, unregulated scalping, tech tools, and fans unwillingly “feeding the beast.”
• Even if you scramble for hours, the deck may be stacked — robot armies and broker MLMS are flooding the space.
• Until the business model changes, expect to keep paying more, seeing less, or joining the arms race yourself.
• No real answers here — just a mess of “supply and demand” and “everybody takes a piece.” But at least you’ll laugh while you cry about not seeing Taylor Swift.

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Further Listening

If this hit a nerve, check out their upcoming "12 Hours of TCB" live marathon (May 31), and follow @thecommercialbreak for more improv, rants, and chaos — although, as Bryan warns, “don’t trust me on anything, okay? I’m not here for answers. I’m just here to ask more questions.” (69:33)

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Coverage of spamageddon 2025. Tens upon tens of people have fallen victim to an email and telephone scammer simply known as spam. Crabapple residents are reminded not to answer any phone calls from spam, do not respond to spam and don't click on links. In a message from from spam. Due to the ongoing emergency in Crabapple, the mayor has called for township wide martial law. The emergency sirens have been going off non stop for 47 hours and in a bit of schadenfreude many Krab appliance are receiving spam text messages from emergency services. The mayor reminds everyone these are not spam messages. And now an emergency broadcast communication from the director of information technology and communication services, Deborah Duddles. I just wanted to update real quick.

[B]

On the scammer situation because there's more.

[C]

Please remember I don't talk to people.

[B]

In email unless it's a business deal and I haven't had any of those for a while.

[C]

I don't talk to people in email. If they're circulating emails where they're telling you that it's me talking, they're fake. Please do not fall for these scams.

[A]

There are now apparently phone calls going.

[C]

Around that are supposed to be me. I don't talk on the phone either. I don't talk to anybody on the phone. I don't do phone calls. I actually hate phone calls. I'm warning you all to stay safe. Do not let them scam you, do.

[A]

Not give them money.

[C]

And I'm here to protect you all and warn you that that's not me. Please be safe.

[A]

Tried and true advice from your IT and communications director Deborah Duddles. Do not use email. Do not use phones. Stay safe Crabapple. We'll be back after this commercial break. On this episode of the commercial break when people are selling Taylor Swift sixth row tickets for 15, 20, $25,000 and there's lots of people willing to pay it, why wouldn't you?

[B]

It's basic economics, supply and demand.

[A]

It really is now. So I want you to imagine yourself in a situation. I think I know the answer, but I want to ask you. You're lucky enough to get in quick and you get $350 seats front row or second row, third row, really close to the stage and then someone falls sick a couple weeks ahead of time and unfortunately you're unable to go travel. The commercial break needs an extra episode like we always do, whatever the situation is, right? And now you've. And now you've got These extraordinarily valuable tickets that you can't use.

[C]

The next episode of the commercial break starts now.

[A]

Oh, yeah. CA Kittens. Welcome back to the commercial break. I'm Brian Green. This is the dear friend and co host of the show, Chris Joy Odley. Best to you, Chris. Best to you out there on the podcast. Universe, how the hell are you? Thanks for joining us. I am watching reels from the recent Florida Gators win of the National NCAA March Madness Tournament, if you will. Chrissy. Who would have thunk it? The one year Brian decides not to do the brackets and pick all the number ones to go all the way to the Final Four is the one that all the number ones go to the Final Four.

[B]

I know. I picked all four of the Final Fours.

[A]

You did.

[B]

But then to actually go to the championship, that. My loss.

[A]

Who'd you pick?

[B]

Well, I had Duke winning it all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And I. But I had Duke playing. No, no.

[A]

Florida.

[B]

No. Auburn.

[A]

Auburn. Okay. I would have. I also would have picked Duke to go all the way to the end if I had done a Final Four bracket or, I mean, a March Madness bracket. But like I told you a couple weeks ago, I don't do. Because all I do is pick the number ones. And it never works out in my favor. There's always some Cinderella team that comes and wrecks it for me. And the one year that would have worked out in my favor. Unbelievable. But anyway, onward and upward. Masters week. I'm watching these reels these week. These kids, I mean, they really have nothing better to do with their time. Jumping on light posts. And one kid falls off the light.

[B]

Post at the Masters.

[A]

No, this is at the. This is down in. Oh, Florida.

[B]

Florida. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Down at the University of Florida. They went wild in Gainesville. Wild. And one kid on the top of a street sign, like on top of a traffic light. In Florida, the traffic lights have big poles because of the hurricanes. They have poles. They don't have wires. They have poles. And they hang out into the middle of the street. He's on top of it, bouncing like an idiot. I don't know what he's proving to anybody. I don't know what you're doing. Why are people so excited about the guy on the traffic light? It's not like he won the national championship, but people are going crazy. Nothing better to do but be drunk. I mean, listen, I was a kid once, too. I get it. He falls off into the street, and as the ambulance is carrying him away, thousands of people watching this, he raises his arm I got a broken clavicle. He raises his arm and the crowd goes wild. He's okay. All right, cool. Are his parents okay after they get that $38,000 hospital bill? I don't know. But, you know, congratulations to Florida. Game well played. I did watch all of the Final Four and the National Championship. That Houston Duke game, that was. Was intense. It was intense. It was insane. For 99% of the game, Duke was clearly just going to walk away with it. And then all of a sudden, the basketball gods had something else in mind with, with Houston. And it. That is the way the ball. That's the way the balls bounce, Chrissy, as they say. But congratulations to the University of Florida. I was looking at a tip of the hat to the sec, who had a couple teams.

[B]

They did.

[A]

There you go. But I was looking at ticket prices the other day. I like to do that when the big tournament games come and all the, you know, razzle dazzle, everyone gets excited. I like to see which teams are willing to pay, which teams, fans are willing to pay the most for the tickets. And I did find some reasonably priced championship Final Four, certainly, like in the, you know, $100 range, or was.

[B]

Did we have the late.

[A]

We had the elite eight. Yeah. And those you could find for 50 bucks. You could be in the nosebleeds for 50 bucks. What? Very reasonably priced. $100 for the final four, $150 for the championship game. Now you're way up there. You're not, you know, you probably won't even be able to see what's going on. But those are with the big ticket broker, StubHub, Vivid Seats, Stuff like that. And reminded me of a CBS this Morning News piece that I had seen, which is probably the most detailed accounting of why concerts, sporting events, and any live entertainment right now is so fucking expensive to get into. I'm going to show it to you here. We'll. We'll watch this. We'll listen to it here in a minute. And sorry, CBS News, but I think this is a really comprehensive piece, and I think many people need to hear it as possible so that we all have a better understanding of exactly why you can't get tickets to your fate to see your favorite band or artist or sporting event and how the mechanics actually work and how Live Nation and Ticketmaster play into this.

[B]

We all want to do the venues themselves.

[A]

It has a lot to do with a lot of things. It's like everything in life, it's complicated, and it does. And while we all like to make ticketmaster and Live a nation to out to be the bad guy. And I think in a lot of ways they certainly are the heel in this situation. It just. It's not just them.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's. It's every. It's every cog in the wheel that is taking their piece and making it more expensive. Not being transparent, employing tactics that are shitty, that don't benefit the consumer. So this may not be the funniest episode of the commercial break ever, but we're so interested in music and live events here, given that we've canceled, at least for ourselves.

[B]

Somebody asked me about that. They're like, did you reschedule your event in Florida? And I laughed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we did. But we don't know what the date is yet. Yeah, we don't know what the date is yet. It's rescheduled. We just don't know what the date is. But what surprised Chrissy and I even about our short dip, our toe dip, our tasty teener into. Into the live.

[B]

Our fingernail.

[A]

Yeah, our fingernail tip. And then pulled it back out. Just the tip. We gave you just the tip. We told you there was going to be a live event. Some of you bought to get to the live event. And we yanked. That was a rug poll. They call that a rug poll in the business. We even in our small experience, we found that the ticket brokering sites were selling tickets for $800, face value, $38, not $58. But they were selling tickets for 800. $800. Now, I am sure no one bought $800 tickets because if they did, they got royally fucked. And I'm really sorry, but that's not exactly. That is the norm right now. It is not the exception. It's the norm. Even the smallest of events, even the most useless entertainment you could ever see is getting super high ticket prices because all of these people are trying to dip their fingers in the pot, so to speak. And this is causing a lot of problems all across the board. Let me give you an example, one that you were sharing with me the other day, and I went and did some more research on it. Linkin park, the venerable All Rock. You know, I don't even know what. What do you. New Rock, I guess would probably be the best new spelled nu rock, 90s 2000s band that had some hits. No Doubt. Chester Benningfield.

[B]

Like no Doubt.

[A]

Just like no Doubt. That's right, just like no Doubt. They were like new ska or something, sky rock or something like that. But Linkin park was one of the first on the scene with this brand of kind of hip hop. Hip hop, rock, heavy metal, you know, synthesized beats, rapping, if you could call it that. And really in your face hard rock, along with some other melodic kind of more. I would call more grungy stuff. They kind of mixed it all together, this mishmash rock, and they hit on something like a cultural zeitgeist. They had a moment where they were really popular. And Chester, the lead singer of the band now, they had not been as popular for a number of years, but I think they were highly regarded with their fans. And Chester died. And I don't. What did he die of? An overdose? Did he die of an overdose?

[B]

I think so. Overhanging it was.

[A]

Oh, suicide. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. He unalived himself, as they like to say on the Internet. He un. Alived himself, I think. I don't want to. I don't want to misspeak about that because I don't want to be disrespectful to. To Chester. Chester Bennington. Death. Let me see here. Death, yes. Unalived by hanging. And the details aren't important. What's important is that he unalived himself in a moment when Linkin park was not at their zenith, they were not at their most powerful. They had seen their moment. Like oftentimes, this happens with every major musical act. They see their height, they fall from grace in the public's eyes. The public gets sick of hearing all about it, hearing the same song over and over again, whatever it is, and then they go away for a while, and then everything old becomes new again. And they see a resurgence in popularity. We're seeing that all over the board, all over the map right now with 80s bands, 90s 80s bands and musical acts. 90s bands and musical acts. Some have stayed. Frankie valley, Frankie Valli, 50s acts. That guy is dead. I'm still not convinced he's alive. I still go, Google Frankie Valli. Tell me. And Google Frankie Valli live and look at any of the concert footage from the last three years and tell me you're not 100% convinced that's not a Boston Dynamics robot with Frankie Valli's actual skin pasted on it. It's amazing. But his mouth doesn't move. He's singing, but his mouth doesn't move. Or they claim he's singing. And it's so hard to tell. And I'm a. I consider myself a master lip sync like detector. Anyway, so right now, the concert business, especially the concert business, is just insane. And we all Know this because we are seeing one of the. We are alive at a time. We are seeing one of the artists who is truly at the zenith of popularity, Taylor Swift. She just went on her world tour and you couldn't get a ticket. And if you could get a ticket, you were paying thousands of dollars even for the nosebleed seats or the standing. Standing room only seats. Thousands of dollars. And if you went to a Taylor Swift concert during that period of time, you will know that every ticket was standing room only. Everybody was standing, screaming and singing the songs you could almost not hear. It almost made it unenjoyable. I went and saw her at her last concert in la, the one that's on Disney plus right now. And I. It was a gift to my wife and it was the most expensive ticket I have ever paid for. And it was insane, but worth it to see her face, to see the enjoyment in her face. But it was just crazy to me that we were paying these kind of ticket prices. And Linkin park is not at the zenith of their. Their power. Chester passes away. Then years later, 6, 7, 8, 10 years later, they decide they're going to put the band back together, but with a new lead singer, as some would say a PR problematic singer. She has some ties to the Church of Scientology and some other cultish type behavior, but some people really like her voice in place of Chesters. And some people don't appreciate it. But they announced a tour where they were playing stadiums. 50, 60, 70,000 seats. And you told me the other day that they were having problems selling those tickets and they were downsizing the venues. Opening acts like Queens of the Stone Age were pulling out, probably because they couldn't be paid the same amount of money with a different sized venue, I would imagine. You know, I don't think they were like, oh, fuck Linkin Park. They were probably thinking to themselves, well, this isn't a good payday for us. And they're downsizing because they cannot sell the tickets at the price they need to sell them to in order to make the money they expected to make or to pay the crew or to fit those kind of arenas. They are even discounting tickets from $59 down to $39. The cheapest of seats, which is a today's day and age, is a pretty reasonable ticket. And there are still lots of seats available to these tickets. We heard this with who else? We've heard this about Katy Perry, we've heard this about who else just had to roll back her shows. Jennifer Lopez had to roll back, cancel her shows. Who are the two guys? The one that plays piano. Not White Stripes, but one plays piano, one plays bass. Do you know what I'm talking about? Black Keys. The Black Keys had to cancel all of their stadium dates and arena dates and go to smaller clubs. This is happening more frequently. The reason is because you and I have less money to spend on tickets right now. Because every ticket that we buy is exorbitantly expensive. Because you can't get them when they go on sale at the normal price. And even at the normal price, they're exorbitantly expensive. Comedy shows, entertainment, live show, all of it. And there's a complicated hodgepodge of reasons why that is. But the artist can no longer afford to go to a place like say Dodgers Stadium, like Lincoln park was scheduled to play and only sell 2/3 of the seats. They need to sell 100% of the seats in order just to make the kind of money they need probably to cover the costs and get a little bit of money themselves. And so rather then take the chance that they won't even six months ahead of time and they can see it coming down the the pike, they decide to go to an 18,000 seat venue rather than a 60,000 seat venue so they have a chance of breaking even and making money themselves. It used to not be like that. There were lots of concerts that I used to go to when I was a teenager and in my 20s where the it wasn't sold out. But now you won't go to a not sold out concert because they can't.

[B]

Planes.

[A]

Same with planes. Because you cannot make money with a not sold out venue. The venue charges as much as possible to the band, the crew does, the equipment's expensive, the merch is expensive to make. And then you've got to deal with TicketMaster, Live Nation, StubHub, Vivid Seats. It is a complicated thing that is going on. And it's not just one bad guy. There's many bad guys and then many people who are just trying to make a living doing this. I'm going to see a lot of concerts this summer. Already got a lot of concerts lined up and I'm thinking about divesting of some of those concert tickets because quite frankly, it's expensive to travel, to go see them. Like, I wanted to get Oasis tickets, I got Oasis tickets in Chicago, but now I'm realizing that everybody along the way is going to charge me an arm and a leg to get there, to stay there, to be there. And the tickets were I bought, I had to buy them Through Ticketmaster. Because Oasis put a couple. Put. Put a stop to StubHub and places like that selling them. Now I've noticed that StubHub does have the tickets and they're selling them.

[B]

Okay. I might know someone who wants to buy those from you.

[A]

Okay, well, let me know. It might be one of the concerts I just have to let go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's so expensive. How did we get here? Why can't we go see a show for 40, 50, $60 even, like we used to? And I'm talking about inflation adjusted numbers. When I went. To give you an example, when I went to a fish when I was 17 years old. 16. 17 years old. I paid $20 for the ticket. That included the fees. 20 bucks. 20 bucks. I would get in, I would sit on the lawn, I'd be able to see the band. It probably wasn't a hundred percent sold out. The experience was good. If I wanted a fish shirt, I'd throw in an extra seven or $10, and that would be it. Now if I want to go see fish, I'm paying $150, if not $200 to sit anywhere in the building. And I'm gonna pay an extra $70 for a fish shirt, $15 for a beer, $30 for a hot dog and some French fries or whatever it is. I mean, honestly, it's just kind of like they're gonna rob you every bit of the way. It's not fish that's doing that. It's because that's where we are in this kind of experience. And it's really, I don't know, upsetting to me as an entertainment lover that we've. We've gotten here. How does Jeff deal with this? Do they sell out Men Pho. Or do they typically have some tickets available at the door?

[B]

They have tickets available.

[A]

Okay. So they don't really deal too much with the pressures of, like, the stubhubs and the Vivid.

[B]

I mean, they're independent, too.

[A]

Yeah, they don't. They don't. They don't use.

[B]

They. Well, I mean, they do have to. I mean, you have to use a ticket broker. So they use. What's the.

[A]

It's access.

[B]

It's somebody that's Ticketmaster adjacent.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because there's, you know, Ticketmaster has all of these different.

[A]

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But. Yeah, but they have a great deal with, like, the venue that they have the show at.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they charge a reasonable price.

[A]

Yeah. I wish it could all be like.

[B]

Because they're independent, I think.

[A]

Yeah. It can't be. They're the promoter too because Ticketmaster owns the ticketing business, Live Nation owns the venue business and Ticketmaster owns Live Nation. Yeah, so when they put together a concert or even a comedy tour, they come and they say, don't Worry about it, Mr. Musician or Mrs. Musician. We're going to give you X amount of dollars per show. You X amount of dollars per show. Sometimes it works like this. If you're a big enough artist, we're going to give you X amount of dollars per show. We'll do the promoting, we'll sell the tickets, will manage everything else down, down the line. But the amount of money that they make is barely a living wage in a lot of cases like these medium sized clubs these people are playing. It's really hard to be a musician, like a regionally successful music musician. It's really hard to be one of those these days. When I was in 33 penis and Chopper Johnson, both my phallic related bands, the music wasn't particularly good. But here's how it went. We would get booked at a club and we would be responsible for selling our own tickets, promoting our own show, and then the venue itself would do their own bit of promotion. Yeah, they'd say, these bands are going to be there this night. They'd advertise in the local rags, maybe they'd put a radio spot on or two, nothing dramatic. But you know, we're also talking about 300 seat, 300 people standing in a room. And then they would say, if you get to anything over a hundred people, we'll split the door with you. Right. And that door was 10 bucks. And if we were lucky, we'll give you 5% of the bar. Right where they really make their money, 5% of the bar. And then it'll be the manager's responsibility to go figure all that stuff out to keep an eye on the door, to click the button to, you know, look at the bar tab at the end of the night or the bar roll or whatever it was. It doesn't work like that anymore. These people are getting paid peanuts by everybody along the line. Spotify, Ticketmaster, Live Nation. Live Nation owns the venue. Ticketmaster is charging a bunch of ticket fees that then they give most back to the venue, which I don't think a lot of people know that. And the venue is in bed with them because that's how they make money. They make money on the fees. It's not just Ticketmaster making money for themselves, it's Ticketmaster making money for the venue. But the venue then also charges the band for all of the services and just using the room or the musician or whoever it is. It's a terrible system that is set up for failure every single step of the way. And that's not even adding into the question about Whether or not StubHub, Vivid Seats and any number thousands of ticket brokers that are out there. And now the evil part about this is, and I say it's evil, I don't argue with anybody making their own money. But the evil part about this is, is that just like everything else in our life, it has become a coaching business. People are coaching other people how to be independent ticket brokers to take those tickets that you so desperately want to the band, to see the band, the music, the comedy, whatever it is. Teaching individuals like you or me how to use bots and multiple computers and IP addresses and masking systems and all this, and selling them that software and subscription services to be your own ticket broker so that you can get the ticket for Taylor Swift that my daughter so desperately wants and resell it to me for thousands of dollars more.

[B]

Yeah, crazy. The resale market's crazy.

[A]

Yes. This has become an mlm, essentially. It's an mlm. And even though there are, there's a real product involved, the independent ticket brokers can charge whatever they want and they do. So some people say free market, baby, free market. But are we getting to the point where you can only afford to go see one concert every two years because you're going to pay $3,000 to see even the shittiest of bands who normally you wouldn't even think twice about paying $50, let alone $2,000, but that's just the way it is now. Free market I agree with, and so does my phone. Free market I agree with, but sometimes I think it has its limitations. And so that's why the commercial break is now selling tickets.

[B]

We become a ticket.

[A]

We become a ticket broker. Welcome to the commercial break Brokers, tcb, dcbb. Get your favorite concert tickets here at the. Gotta make money somehow on this stupid fucking show or my wife's gonna divorce me. So there you go. There it is. All right, I want to listen to this CBS this MORNING piece and talk about it because I think it's an interesting piece, interesting enough to carry us through an episode and we're on vacation right now while you're listening to this. So it's low hanging fruit, quite frankly. I'm being a ticket broker right now. I'm brokering off some bad content for you. All right, we'll be back. You make this rather snappy, won't you?

[C]

I have some very heavy thinking to do before 10 o'.

[A]

Clock.

[C]

Hi, cats and kittens.

[A]

Rachel here.

[C]

Do you ever get the urge to speak endlessly into the void like Brian? Well, I've got just the place for you to do that. 212-4333. TCB. That's 212-38-22. Feel free to call and yell all you want. Tell Brian I need a raise. Compliment Chrissy's innate ability to put up with all his shenanigans or tell us a little story. The juicier the better. By the way, we'd love to hear your voice because Lord knows we're done listening to ourselves. Also, give us a follow on your favorite socials hecommercial break on Insta, TCB, podcast on TikTok. And for those of you who like to watch, but oh, that came out wrong. We put all the episodes out on video. YouTube.com TheCommercialBreak and tcbpodcast.com for all the info on the show, your free sticker or just to see how pretty we look. Okay, I gotta go now. I've got a date with my dog. No, seriously, Axel needs food. Today is pork chop day.

[A]

All right, back talking about the ticketing business when it comes to live entertainment and how it's just gotten out of hand, out of control. I don't have any solutions because I never do have any solutions. But I thought that I would just bring it to the attention. This is a really good piece that is done by CBS News this morning.

[B]

And yeah, just to be clear, we didn't do the journalism.

[A]

No, there's no journalism here at the commercial break. We're just hard working other hard working journalists. So stop by the CBS News this Morning website or YouTube channel or whatever to watch this in its entirety. But we're going to listen to it because I think it's important and I believe that it needs a little bit more attention than I think CBS News this Morning can give it. So I don't know how many of our listeners are tuning into CBS News this morning, but here we go. It was 1083 for two tickets.

[C]

The market is the market, the prices are the prices. Going to a concert has become an accomplishment.

[B]

It's one second you don't have any extra time.

[C]

Tickets are more expensive than ever and seemingly harder to get. I do know there's probably stuff out there that a retail fan has no shot at getting.

[A]

This guy who's talking is basically talking in his garage. Yeah, right. And by the way, this is a.

[B]

Big air duct behind him.

[A]

Yeah. This is a Georgia ticket broker he's talking to. We'll get to that part.

[C]

But we've spent the last year trying to understand how this happened.

[A]

Ticketmaster is kind of the fall guy.

[C]

In this talking to artists.

[A]

Here's an example of a good deal memo.

[C]

Scalpers.

[A]

He made over 34,000 in one month.

[C]

And executives is Ticketmaster monopoly at the company's controlling concert ticketing. Why does Stubhub deserve the biggest share of that woman's purchase? This is the story of how the industry got here and how it might soon change. We can get those Sundays hold off on Saturdays still low. Okay. On a Friday night in la, the emo rock band Something Corporate is playing a reunion show at the Hollywood Palladium. Fans have been paying about $70 for tickets to the tour.

[A]

When I woke up in New York City from my sleep behind the wheel. But where I've never heard of this band. Have you heard of Something's Corporate?

[B]

I have something. But yeah. Not.

[A]

No, not about their. So yeah, I'm not informed about this band exactly.

[C]

Do those $70 go something Corporate frontman Andrew McMahon agreed to share those usually secret details for a show.

[A]

Here's an example of like a deal memo.

[C]

His team just blacked out exactly which show it was. What do we have here?

[A]

Just I noticed the name of the agency on the top of that.

[C]

Start the band set a ticket price of $56.

[A]

There's a gross potential of a couple hundred thousand dollars being made on.

[C]

But out of that 200 grand in ticket sales, half is deducted for venue related show costs.

[A]

37 grand in stagehand. Jesus. $104,000 to rent the Palladium where they probably seat 3,000 people. 4,000 people maybe.

[C]

Leaving the band with $100,000 payday. But most of that goes to the band's own expenses. Commissions and fees and payroll. Their management takes a quarter. Travel and crew costs take another.

[A]

Their management takes a quarter. They got to get a new management team. That's crazy.

[C]

Quarter. Meanwhile, that $56 ticket has had fees added though. Artists don't get that money. So once you take away the venue, show costs and the band's touring expenses, Something Corporate's actual profit from that $70 ticket is about 10 bucks.

[A]

Okay, so let's do the math there. Three, four thousand people sit at the Hollywood Palladium. I'm assuming I'm just making an educated non educated guess making an educated non educated guess. So they're going to make 30 to 40 thousand dollars. Looks like there's seven people in the band. So they're each gonna walk away with six or seven thousand dollars for a night's worth of work. But maybe they're only working a hundred nights a year. 110 nights a year, if you're lucky. I mean, these guys look like they're a little bit older, right? So they're not. And I don't think they're fish. I don't think they're working 250 nights a year. I don't even think fish does that. But. So you're making 70, 80, $90,000 a year on touring. That's not. No, I'm sorry. That's $700,000. Oh, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah. Never mind. That's pretty good money. That's good money. And then we split that five ways.

[C]

Yeah, McMahon isn't complaining. That's still seven for a night's work.

[A]

Oh, wow. My math was right. Look at me. I did that all in my head. Except I. Except I didn't add a zero. We love you, Los Angeles. Thank you for a beautiful night.

[C]

But the point here is each dollar fans pay to enjoy the show is fought over by artists, venues, ticket companies, and scalpers. And time and again, the industry's solution to these fights has been to just charge fans a bit more.

[A]

Yeah, see, I think that's really the issue is that at the end of the day, it comes down to how much is the consumer willing to pay. So the more that we feed the beast, the more that they continue to charge. When people are selling Taylor Swift sixth row tickets for 15, 20, $25,000, and there's lots of people willing to pay it, why wouldn't you?

[B]

Basic economics. Supply and demand.

[A]

It really is. Now, so I want you to imagine yourself in a situation. I think I know the answer for this for me, but I want to ask you. You get a. You pop on Ticketmaster, wait in the line to get the Taylor Swift tickets for the show here in Atlanta, and you're lucky enough to get in quick, and you get $350 seats, front row or second row, third row, really close to the stage, and then someone falls sick a couple weeks ahead of time, and unfortunately, you're unable to go travel. The commercial break needs an extra episode like we always do, whatever the situation is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And now you've. And now you've got these extraordinarily valuable tickets that you can't use and you look on the marketplace, StubHub, and StubHub says you can probably get $25,000 a piece for these tickets. We're going to take a 10% commission, $2,500 a piece, or whatever the commission is. It's probably way more than that, but we're going to do that. But you can sell them on our marketplace or you can go to the Ticketmaster website and sell them for $350 like you bought them for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would be your choice?

[B]

Well, I mean.

[A]

I mean, come on.

[B]

Big difference.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But normally I would say just as long as I can get my money back. Now, if somebody's gonna pay 25,000, $25,000.

[A]

That'S what those tickets were going. Some of them were going for. Not all of them, but some of them the best of seats and the best of shows in the more affluent areas. Miami, Louisiana.

[B]

Chicago, at that point, too. It's a lot of corporate stuff, you know, corporate people that are buying them or people that just have tons of.

[A]

Money to buy people that have tons of money to buy them. And that's the problem is that just like Disney World has become a premium, only rich people can kind of afford it. Experience. Concerts are now becoming that way. A large amount of them are becoming that way. I'll tell you a little story before we move on here. I'll tell you a little story. When I was a bartender and I was giving myself Chianti Classico under the. Under the bar, while day old bread. Day old bread. Not only day old bread, day old bread that had been on someone else's table. I mean, that's insane. But anyway, it's not open anymore. So don't call me about it. I don't want to hear about it. It's not open anymore.

[B]

I wonder why.

[A]

I can only imagine. When I was working there, I ended up meeting a guy at the end of the bar who would come in often. Older gentleman, probably in his late 50s, early 60s. Not the coke dealer. No. But that guy was sitting at the end of the bar, too, because he knew that every dime I made would go right into his pocket. It was like I was working for him. You do the work, you give it to me.

[C]

How's that?

[B]

He was his own broker.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So the guy and I became friendly over the course of a couple of months. And one day I asked him what he did because he always seemed to be. He was, you know, driving around a nice Mercedes surrounded by younger, beautiful women. He was very eccentric. Right. And you could just tell he was. You drank the best wine, champagne, you know, get this girl, whatever she might get them. Only the best for you. That's why I'm at Le Strada eating soft shell crabs and three day old bread. So I learned at the time that he was buying tickets. He was paying people to stand in line or doing it himself. Stand in line.

[B]

That used to be what you did.

[A]

At the box office, buying the tickets and then reselling them on this black market. That was very virgin ground at the time. Very young. But he was making 2, 3, $400 sometimes on a ticket. On the most in demand of concerts. Most tickets he was making 50 or 60 or $100. But he was doing it in volume and he was building an organization. He had four or five people working for him. He had an office down in Buckhead. He was doing it. And he was well connected in the music industry. A lot of times the bands would give him their tickets.

[B]

I've heard of that too.

[A]

Yeah, and we'll get to this in the story. But the bands would give him their tickets. Let's say a. Let's say a guy like Ari Shafir comes into town. Ari Shafir comes into town, and Ari has 20 tickets available per the contract to give away at his disposal. Not the best tickets, but good tickets, right? And he says, yeah, Brian, Chrissy and what other hangers on, Brian wants to ask me to send to the show and maybe a couple of other strange, you know, people that I know in Atlanta. But I got 10 of those tickets left. Not Ari. But a lot of times bands and musicians, when they, especially when the tickets are in demand, they will give those over to someone that they know that will then resell them, maybe not directly to the ticket broker, but kind of directly, but to somebody who knows the ticket broker. And then that's a way that the band would make a little bit of extra cash for the night. Especially the bands that were on a run. The hot band Linkin park not included in that. But you understand what I'm saying. Jen Lopez not selling her tickets to the ticket brokers.

[B]

Wasn't Justin Bieber. Wasn't there a thing about him doing that?

[A]

He was doing it. I think they. I think that the Boss, Bruce Springsteen at one point had. There was mumblings that he was doing it. There was. And I don't know any of this to be true or not, and I like Bruce Springsteen and I don't see why he needed to do that if he did that, but maybe he didn't, who knows? But it's not uncommon. It's not uncommon for your favorite football player, basketball player, baseball player to sell their tickets on the black market either because they have the best seats in the house. And who's going to go to 162 home games for the who? What family member, Maybe your wife or your husband or maybe, maybe your kids, but certainly not filling out 10 seats every single game. Why wouldn't you make a little extra cash? So this guy introduced me to the business and taught me how it worked. And on occasion I would go stand at a box office for him to get these tickets. I didn't think much of it at the time.

[B]

This was before or after Jam Land production?

[A]

This was before Jam Land. But during my 13 year long bud Light and cocaine induced hates. Yes, I didn't think much of it at the time. I really didn't because there were so few people who even knew about ticket brokers that it wasn't like a thing. And he did sell a lot of tickets to corporations, to people, you know, people who could afford and put them on the corporate card, whatever. And at that time, when you saw when there was a $20 ticket and you sold it for 65 bucks, to me, even back then it was like, you know, whatever. It's an in demand ticket. This has been going on for time in memoriam. This is nothing new that these ticket brokers do this. But what they do is they suck up available tickets for fans who are really die hard, who are standing out there in the cold and the wet and the rain. Not anymore. Who are sitting at home in their pajamas, clicking on, clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All right, let's get refreshed.

[B]

Refresh tickets.

[A]

Go for so high.

[C]

Now consider the history of the infamous ticket fee. In the 80s, as artists demanded a bigger cut of the box office, venues scrambled for new revenue. Ticket fees, which cut out the artist were the answer, says New York Times music writer Ben Cesario.

[A]

There was a guy named Fred Rosen who became the CEO of Ticketmaster. And he's the person who really created the modern ticketing business as we know it.

[C]

You know, it was Field of Dreams.

[A]

If you build it, that will come. And they did.

[C]

What Rosen built was a network of ticket outlets and phone centers that made it easy for fans to buy. That was new seats 18 to 20. But for that convenience, there's a convenience charge of 120. They were charged higher and higher fees. Handling charge. I mean, just to touch it.

[A]

They charge you $3. Fans, $3. Those were the days.

[C]

$3 cleaned, but venues signed on because, and this was the key part, Ticketmaster let those venues keep most of the fee. Yeah.

[A]

Ticketmaster is kind of the fall guy in this. It's. It's set up for that purpose. Fred Rosen. That's a very interesting point that I think is important to hear. Ticketmaster gives most of those fees back to the venue. It's how Ticketmaster gets the business of the venue is they bribe them, essentially. They say, we'll do all the hard work as far as the ticketing is concerned.

[B]

Or they just buy the venue.

[A]

Yeah, or they just buy the venue through Live Nation. That's right. Or they manage it or whatever it is. But Ticketmaster becomes the fall guy because they're set up to be the fall guy. And they're okay with that because it's such a lucrative business. He used to say that his client is not the consumer, it's the venue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Deserve to take the heat for that venue.

[C]

In exchange for taking that heat, Ticketmaster won control, the exclusive right to sell all the tickets. In the 90s, Pearl Jamie tried to escape this system, even taking their case to Congress. The issue at hand here is whether.

[A]

Ticketmaster is a monopoly.

[C]

But that failed. And venues and other man A For effort.

[A]

Pearl Jam.

[B]

I know.

[A]

For effort. Yes.

[B]

Of them to try.

[A]

They saw it coming and they knew what was going on, and they all of them valiantly fought that effort. It's so much so that for one whole tour, like one year, two years, I remember that, yeah, they would only sell tickets through their own, like, fan club or whatever it was, but they were losing money at a huge clip. When they were the biggest band in rock and roll, they were losing money. They weren't able to play the venues they wanted to. And it became, you can't set up your own Ticketmaster. And when you're Pearl Jam, how do you do that? It's a billion dollar corporation.

[C]

Artists stuck with Ticketmaster in the UK.

[A]

And in Europe, they have a different ticketing system. And it's usually not these exclusive contracts where the cost of a ticket and the cost of a fee overseas tends to be a lot lower than in the us. But artists like touring in the US because they make more money here, because.

[B]

People are willing to pay it.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Because we're the dum dums who are willing to pay the fee.

[C]

The concert scene is shaped by the combined power of Ticketmaster and Live Nation.

[B]

Or buy it and pay later on your credit card.

[A]

I mean, that's the craziest shit I was seeing the New Orleans, not the Jazz Fest, but there's another major music festival that happens down in New Orleans. Do you know what I'm talking. I can't remember the name of it. It's like the. Under the bunch that go under the Derby Delay. I don't even remember what it was, but there are huge bands that are playing four days. It was like a lineup that I've never seen before, rivaling Jazz Fest. And they have tickets that go up into the $2,500 for super VIP experience and all this other stuff, you know, heated bathrooms and people that wipe your ass and all this other shit. All this premium shit. Put it on layaway.

[B]

Yeah, you can.

[A]

Yeah. Pay. Put $500 down now. Pay US$50 a month, forever and ever, and 15% interest. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, well. And plus, you, too, you get caught up, like, oh, my God, I really want to be there. I really want to see the experience. Yeah. And so the fact that you're able to actually buy tickets, like, say, for a Taylor Swift or, like, Prince's last shows, I remember this, us doing this, just like, the fact that we could even just get them, just put them on the credit card quick, you know, and then, yeah, people get caught up with that.

[C]

They merged in 2010, and now some venues say Ticketmaster isn't helping them out, but specifically supporting Live Nation, which owns their own venues and promotes their own artists.

[A]

We can't compete.

[C]

Stephen Parker, executive director of the National Independent Venue association, says Live Nation uses its power across the industry to strangle competition, basically making it so that artists.

[A]

Have to play every single date at Live Nation venues or Live Nation operated venues or Live Nation partner venues. Yeah, that's. That's the problem is that the artists, if they want to be in the big leagues and make that, you know, make a living doing this, they have to get in bed with Ticketmaster and Live Nation. Pearl Jam learned that lesson the hard way, but that's. It's the way that the system has been. It's by design.

[C]

Last May, the Department of justice made a similar claim.

[A]

It is time to break it up.

[C]

Saying Live Nation and Ticketmaster illegally use their power to push down competition and push up ticket prices. Is Ticketmaster a monopoly? Well, obviously, there's a claim that we are. Dan Wall is the antitrust lawyer who helped get the.

[A]

Ticketmaster is the antitrust lawyer who's making a billion dollars a year defending Ticketmaster.

[C]

Live Nation merger approved in the first place. He calls the DOJ's case a performance.

[A]

Look at that guy's office. Look at that guy's office.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

Unbelievable. To be that guy for one day.

[C]

They've lawsuit. That would have no impact on ticket prices. The Justice Department is trying to break you up. You have senators on both sides of the aisle saying you're a monopoly. There was a poll that said 60% of Americans think the two companies should be broken up. Why are they all wrong about this? We are obviously the leading company in this industry. There's no doubt about that.

[A]

And I think that's an interesting way of putting it.

[C]

Creates a certain.

[B]

Yeah, what do you think this guy's gonna say?

[A]

We are the leading podcast on my street.

[C]

Of jealousy. I think it creates a certain amount of rivalry, certain amount of fear. But we stand by what we do. It is the one ticketing company.

[A]

Well, of course you do. You have to. You're being paid by them to say that. I mean, take a look at it from the consumer point of view or the musician's point of view. But is there a better way? I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. Is the better way buying tickets by mailing Eddie Vedder, please send me two tickets to your concert. Here's a check for $50. I don't know.

[C]

In this country, that is 100% on the side of the artist and the fan. Not run for the benefit of ticket brokers and ticket scalpers and big resale prices and big resale fees.

[B]

But it is complicated, too, because these venues, you know, as a fan, you want to go to a venue that's a good venue. Of course you do nice offers. Things that you would like to purchase there that has good lighting, has good stuff. And so these venues have to. You have to pay for it.

[A]

Exactly. Do you want to go see Brian fall off a stage in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, or do you want to go to, I don't know, wherever it. To the Coca Cola Roxy. Brand spanking new, beautiful, well run. You know, merch is in pretty places. I mean, even the Variety Playhouse. Now, that used to be a dive bar that was really big. Now it's a clean, sparkly, shiny place in the middle of little fucking Five Points. It lost a little bit of its luster because now it's got a lot of bluster, so to speak. I mean, I hate to use the rhyme, but I do it all the time. And it is a complicated question about whether or not this is the right way or the wrong way to do it, because it is the system we have, like it or not, it is the system we have. And whether you like it or not, I bet you like sitting in your pajamas pressing refresh, trying to get those tickets rather than standing out in the rain, going to the box office, calling somebody up and trying to have them walking through, getting tickets. Or better yet again, sending an envelope to your favorite band and hoping that you get tickets in some silly lottery. That doesn't make sense. This is a complicated system. Now, he said, we are on the side of the musician and the consumer, not the big resale companies. Charging high prices. You're also charging high prices. It starts with you. You're charging $50 ticket fees on $70 tickets. That is insanity. How can you charge a $50 ticket fee? I agree what you do is valuable. I agree the service you offer is convenient. $50 convenient. I don't even make $7 an hour working here at the commercial break. And I think we can all agree that the commercial break has built something quite amazing.

[B]

We're independent.

[A]

It rivals Live Nation and Ticketmaster. We are independent. Yes. Thank you. No big corporations here. No big podcast here. All right, let's take a break. We'll get back to it.

[C]

Let me do something Brian has never done.

[A]

Be brief.

[C]

Follow us on Instagram at the commercial break. Text or call us 212-4333, tcb. That's 212-433-3822. Visit our website tcbpodcast.com for all the audio, video and your free sticker. Then watch all the [e-mail] thecommercialbreak and finally share the show. It's the best gift you could give a few aging podcasters See, Brian, that really wasn't that difficult, now was it? You're welcome.

[A]

Okay, let's get back to the CBS Saturday morning report here. Wanna have a good cue.

[C]

The real problem with ticketing Wall says we can get those Sundays hold off on Saturday. Still low. Okay. Is caused by scalpers. I mean, I do know there's probably stuff out there that a retail fan has no shot at getting.

[A]

Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Mr. Independent Ticket Broker.

[C]

Go is a two day music festival at the Merriweather Post Pavilion in Maryland. So just concert tickets. What do you think?

[A]

They're hard to get.

[C]

Last summer, Leve Rene, Rapp and Hozier topped the bill.

[A]

It sold out so fast.

[C]

Like so many on sales these days.

[B]

Is one second you don't have any extra time.

[C]

Buying tickets was a kind of competition.

[A]

I was clicking on the website, and.

[C]

It was all sold out.

[A]

So then I started Googling, like, you know, resale tickets for All Things Go.

[C]

The All Things Go ticket sale that froze out Melissa Santos had happened five months before. Yeah. So All Things on an April morning we spent with Aaron Farah in a Georgia office park as he tried to get those very same tickets.

[A]

It's like, you know, the festival.

[C]

It's in Maryland. Farrah used to be a teacher, but has been buying and selling tickets.

[A]

He used to do good in the world, and now he's screwing you over for the All Things Go festival, which I'd never heard of, but there's lots of festivals I've never heard of since.

[C]

2008, when a poker buddy. He was a pretty big hustler. Suggested scooping up.

[A]

He's a pretty big. So I decided to go the way.

[C]

Big hustler to a Jonas Brothers show.

[A]

I think I made like three or four hundred bucks. And it was that thing came in on my phone. I was. I like how Dwight Schrute. There's a picture of Dwight Schrute behind him.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

It's classic. That's classic. Like, I was hooked.

[C]

His operation remained tiny. He was still teaching, scraping by until desperate for enough cash to score super lucrative tickets. It was Van Morrison in Clearwater, Florida. He reached out to an acquaintance with deeper pockets.

[A]

So I called Kevin. I was like, I need $2,000 to get these. And he didn't even blink.

[C]

He's like, sure.

[A]

And I was like, who? Who was it? He said, van Morrison. I was like, never heard of him.

[B]

What?

[A]

What?

[B]

Who's never heard of Van Morrison?

[A]

Guys, this is the guy who's helping the guy defeat you on the ticket line is the guy who doesn't even know who fucking Van Morrison is. And he's too old not to know who Van Morrison is. I asked. He's like, yes, you have.

[C]

What Kevin McCurley lacked in musical knowledge, he made up for in business ambition. 9,500 in profit. Not just starting their own ticket company.

[A]

Called $9,500 in profit. Sounds great. Who's Michael Jackson Elite? Hey, it's Kevin. With smart scalpers.

[C]

But packaging their ticket techniques and franchising them to new brokers. Usher. We sold 105 tickets like this.

[A]

Oh, my God. The world is being taken over by a bunch of guys in her mom's basement. Broker. Just last month, he made over 34,000 in one month. Made like, oh, get me signed up.

[B]

Well, I know.

[A]

Welcome to Brian's Scalpers Club. Elite 100. The commercial break brought to you by scalpers.

[B]

Yeah, I like tcbb.

[A]

Yeah, tcbb screwing you every step of the way. Profit. Profit.

[C]

Yeah. I've learned a lot of stuff about.

[A]

The ticket business, Sean.

[C]

Vic.

[A]

I've learned a lot of stuff about the ticket business. I've also learned how to wear gray shoes with black shorts and dark blue shirt.

[C]

Gelder, a full time firefighter, started working with Ali.

[A]

Oh, well, God bless you, son.

[C]

Part time three years ago, my biggest.

[A]

Wins probably Taylor Swift.

[C]

You got Taylor? Yes, I did. How many did you get?

[A]

I had four.

[C]

Those seventh row four seats to Swift's Miami show netted Van Gelder $10,000.

[B]

How are they getting? How are they getting? Like the really good seats. They're.

[A]

They're so good. They have all the pre sale codes. They're so good with the box. They're so. They just. This is what they do for a living. You and I do this every couple of months. They do this every.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very upset because they weren't going. So unfortunately I chose money over daughters. My daughters will never forgive me. Therapy. But at least I got a brand new fix box.

[C]

The market is the market. The prices are the prices. But the right to sell at those prices goes only to those who manage to snag tickets every day. Ordinary fans like Melissa Santos are pitted against pros like Elite. You have those Sundays, we'll get those Sundays. Some of what Elite does is useful for any ticket buyer to copy. There you go. There's a code. Do your best to access a pre sale through your credit card or a fan club. Sign up the public on sale, often on Friday is often too late. Do you bother buying on Friday?

[A]

Very rarely.

[C]

I mean won't even waste our time if the on sale starts.

[A]

Wow. Well, they're trying to make a profit so for them it might be a. The time they put in might not be worth it for the results that they get. But for most of us, that's how we get our tickets. Yeah. Friday morning it's at 10.

[C]

Get logged in.

[A]

Well before I like to log in Saturday at about 3:15pm Right.

[B]

Oh yeah, that's on sale.

[A]

Oh, go to stubhub.com let me hop on.

[C]

And don't just click the first Google search result for a show that usually takes you to expensive resale tickets. Even if tickets aren't even on sale.

[B]

I'm sake of buying something on those before.

[A]

Oh, I bought on StubHub.

[B]

No, just like googling the artist and then the first thing that pops up I Was thinking that was the site.

[A]

Well, that's what was going on with TCB tickets too, is the first 12 results were for ticket brokers. And it wasn't until you got almost to the second page did you actually see the venue's website yet.

[C]

Instead, go to the band or venue's official website and from there find the link to the primary on sale. Anna, let's just get those. But yes, brokers are also using techniques not available to the general public. Sunday. Yeah, get those, Anna, please. Once the sale started, get those tickets.

[B]

He's talking to those techniques.

[A]

Oh, watch. He shows you a few.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

But some of these you don't have access to even if you wanted to have access to them.

[C]

Click a web plugin that showed how many seats were still available in each section.

[A]

500 tickets left. Oh, okay. How does the plugin get into the system? Have an open API. What they call an open API or an open call that allows them to constantly monitor how many tickets are being sold and which ones are available. That can only be done if. First up, there's a back door somewhere on the website of Ticketmaster to the venue or to the venue. Or someone is feeding them that information on purpose.

[C]

That's nifty. You can see the. See the count. Yep. Based on that number. Yeah.

[B]

That's nifty.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I'm screwing you.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I'm screwing you. I sure am.

[C]

He decided whether to buy. Let's pass on Saturdays.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Because so many were still remaining. Yeah. Just not worth it. And While Farah and McCurley told us.

[A]

This is the most irritated interview I've ever seen. This guy's so irritated with the fact that CBS is there.

[C]

Also.

[B]

They're literally set up in a garage. There's a vacuum, a water heater there. There's four air ducts. Yeah. There's four mismatched desks.

[A]

Yeah. Doesn't make it sound like a very attractive business to be in.

[C]

Don't use bots to buy tickets. The definition of a bot is a squishy thing. We had noticed one of their YouTube videos. Now all these tools are out there. Touted Stub tools and Primo browser.

[A]

So that is a multi session browser.

[C]

Which help brokers mask their IP address and log into many Ticketmaster accounts, letting them avoid caps on how many tickets they can buy. Really?

[A]

The sky's the limit.

[C]

The number of tickets you can buy. The services cost 250amonth.

[A]

Month.

[C]

And are only available to ticket brokers when you're.

[A]

That's the problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Is that even though they're saying they're democratizing the buy the purchase and sale of tickets, there's. There's still a hurdle to get in that door to really democratize it. If everybody had these tools available to them, then I would see how you could make that claim. But when you are essentially gating those tools that make it very easy for you to get the best tickets and not for me to get the best tickets, then you're not democratizing it. What you're doing is you're essentially, you know, making a hierarchy where you sit on top, collecting the most amount of.

[C]

Money, use something like stub tools that allows you to have so many sessions. Do you think the average fan has a fair shot to get these tickets?

[A]

I think so, because they're. Again, they're just trying to buy two or four tickets. Yeah, but you.

[C]

Well, that's harder to get.

[A]

When I'm gonna let him talk, he makes the point for me. I'm sorry, I'm gonna.

[C]

Someone else just bought 24.

[A]

Not necessarily. If so.

[C]

Well, how's that? If someone buys 24, that's 24 fewer than other people can get. Yeah, but they.

[A]

If they want to buy four tickets.

[C]

They can get their spouse, their kid, their parents, so they can also have.

[A]

The same amount of. Of opportunity as we do. That guy is as dumb as he looks. He really is as dumb as he looks. This is the guy who's funding the independent broker in Georgia, by the way, who started this, like, MLM for ticket brokers, where you can buy a course and become a broker. It doesn't make any. What you said is the dumbest thing in the world. It doesn't hurt the consumer that you're taking 380 tickets out of the pool available to the real fan or to the person that just wants to go to the concert. And you're telling us that we have to get like, a whole, like, battalion of human people of people, which is what we have been doing, by the way. We have been getting as many people as we can to all get on at the same time so that one of us hopefully can hit on it and buy as many tickets as possible.

[C]

Okay, so people should assemble a team. It's possible. Guys, 9:59.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Okay, so you think it's fair? You think the current landscape is fair?

[A]

I'm not saying it's fair, but I'm not saying it's unfair. Okay, what are you saying? You are such a moron or the other. Oh, what a moron.

[C]

Whether it's legal has also been a bit vague. The 2016 Bots act makes it illegal to circumvent a security measure used by the ticket issuer to enforce posted event ticket purchasing limits. But the Federal Trade Commission has enforced the act just once, even as brokers seem to violate it daily.

[A]

So this is an executive order.

[C]

President Trump has now called on the FTC to rigorously enforce the Bots act, giving them six months to make a plan.

[B]

It was that guy next to him, Kid Rock. Oh, God.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Kid Rock was in the Oval Office with Trump. And by the way, why did Trump have to sign everything with a signature? That's one page big, like a whole page.

[B]

Yeah, he does a little Sharpie.

[A]

I know. He only signs with Sharpies to carry out the law.

[C]

Stopping brokers has been the job of ticket companies. We get to help people get to these magical moments, mostly Ticketmaster. Is it your goal to get tickets in the hands of people who intend to go to the show rather than people who just are buying the ticket to resell it? Oh, 100%. Dan Wall is a longtime top lawyer for Ticketmaster. And what kind of grade would you give yourself on how that's going at the moment? Well, we're tough graders. You can get it 99.9% right and you give yourself an F. But do you think you're.

[A]

Well, we grade ourselves awful tough. Yeah, you can get it right five and a half percent of the time and we're still going to give ourselves an F. Dave, are you getting it even that much?

[C]

Anywhere near 99.9% when millions and millions of tickets are being sold by scalpers in a large on sale, we regularly knock down and defeat millions of bots. We're in an arms race with the people who are trying to figure out how to intercept these tickets. We've met people doing this. I'm sure you have. And they buy tickets and then they. They resell them, and then they buy some more tickets and they resell them, but their Ticketmaster account doesn't get closed. Why aren't you able to spot the folks doing this and close those accounts? We spot a lot of them.

[A]

That's a bullshit.

[C]

And. And honestly, we don't spot them all. But you feel like you're doing an okay job of this. This isn't going to be abated until we get to the root cause of this, which is the extraordinary profitability of the resale market. The biggest resale platform.

[A]

Well, you get to the root of that by not making the tickets so expensive in the first place and making them more accessible. Feel me out on this one. If I don't have to pay $180 face value for every ticket that I go see, I will go see more concerts. Making more tickets available because more musicians will be able to make a living on the road. Making more tickets generally out there in the open. The cheaper that it is, the more people that get in on it, the more people that get in on it, the more people can make a living doing it. The more people that make a living doing on it, the more these events take place all around the world. We also on the same. At the same time that we're hearing about tour cancellations and all this stuff, we're also hearing about festival closures all over the place. Festivals that can't do this anymore because they're getting charged an arm and a leg all along the way. They can't find profitability because profitability and people can't buy the tickets so they can't sustain the model period.

[C]

Form is StubHub, which sold 40 million tickets last year for like five years ago. What would that have been? Millions. And now we're in the tens of millions. We spoke to Chris Miller before he stepped down as StubHub's chief business officer.

[A]

When you look at what before this came out, yeah, the secondary market has done. It's sort of democratized access.

[C]

Brokers aren't villains, he says, but part of a free market that sites like StubHub have made more efficient, giving everyone an equal chance to buy or sell at transparent prices. When demand is low, fans can get great deals. All right, this is StubHub. But yes, StubHub builds that market by partnering with brokers like Elite. StubHub charges brokers lower fees to sell on the site than ordinary fans pay when they sell. And what happens to a ticket when a broker scoops it up? Well, remember Melissa Santos at All Things Go when she was shut out of face value tickets? She went to StubHub just a couple hours later.

[A]

It was 1,083 for two tickets and.

[C]

Paid more than $540 each.

[A]

A thousand dollars to see Hoser, I think. Come on, that's crazy.

[C]

Met a woman sitting on the lawn at all things go, paid $540 on stuff.

[B]

But the fact is she paid it.

[A]

She did.

[B]

That is the thing.

[A]

She did pay it. So she likes that music. That's all I gotta say.

[B]

As long as people are willing to pay it, this is gonna be.

[A]

This is gonna be a problem.

[C]

So once all the fees and Expenses and costs of the show come out of the wash. The artists made about a hundred dollars, the promoter in the venue made about 70, the broker made 110 and StubHub made 180. Why does StubHub deserve the biggest share of that woman's purchase? Well, I would first start with saying that all things go should be working directly with StubHub to participate in the market dynamics. There's a way to collaborate here that everyone can participate in.

[A]

Yeah, he's. That's what he's suggesting is that they give a portion of the tickets to StubHub so that they can allow their free market willy nilly. However much you want to pay, you get to pay. You know, essentially supply and demand way of looking at the marketplace dynamics that.

[C]

The promoters get more of. The promoter can take a.

[A]

That's what everyone has been up in arms about with Ticketmaster this last year and a half, two years. Is this surge pricing, demand pricing, just like airline tickets. The more the. The less that are available, the more that you will pay. I don't disagree with supply and demand, but I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it.

[C]

The. The artist can take a participation. We do this in sports all the time.

[A]

What Miller participated a participation. That's a. Yeah, that's a nice way of saying a huge fee is nothing.

[C]

Less than the fork in the road ticketing now stands at. StubHub is offering to share their profits from resold tickets with musicians like Andrew McMahon. If StubHub is also allowed to handle the original on sale, the part Ticketmaster now does exclusively. If artists accept scalping, they can get in on the action. I don't want anything to do with it. I would turn down every check that got sent to me by a StubHub or Vivid Seats or any of these guys because I think what they're doing is. I mean, I think it's disgusting. McMahon wants to take the other side.

[B]

I want to go see this band now.

[A]

Yeah. Something corporate is not so corporate.

[C]

Working the road and end scalping, which might finally be possible since tickets are digital. McMahon now only allows resale on Ticketmaster's face value exchange. Billie Eilish, Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam do that too. We want to make it easy. If you decide you need to get rid of your ticket to get rid of it, but you're gonna sell it back for the same price you bought it for, I think it's misguided. Miller.

[B]

I'm so shocked.

[A]

He said, I don't think I'M making so much money. I really want to get at those Pearl Jam tickets.

[B]

I think it's misguided.

[A]

I think it's misguided. I think you're misguided.

[C]

Was face value exchange, a power grab that can trap fans with high priced tickets they aren't allowed to sell for less.

[A]

We don't believe the artists can control.

[C]

The pricing on the in the aftermarket now. It's their show. It's not the scalper show. Ticketmaster, even though they have their own resale site, told us they support laws to cap resale prices. There's nothing socially beneficial about scalping. It's just a ripoff and it's taking that money from the fans.

[A]

Yeah, okay, I understand what this guy, what he's saying, but that's not how Ticketmaster acts because they are, in fact, surge pricing now themselves and adding exorbitant fees onto what is a pretty simple piece of the puzzle. Find the right ticket, make sure that seat is available, and hand that to the customer willing to pay it. I think that should be a cap at like a 5% fee of the ticket value or something along those lines. And that starts the conversation about the band or the musician or the agent or whoever's putting the deal memo together to look at the actual costs. Give the band a fair cut of the ticket ticket, and then price it out based on how close or how, how far you are from seeing the actual musician and then also how much you're willing to pay the. The fair market value for that particular musical act. StubHub shouldn't. No one should get in bed with StubHub. That's a ridiculous idea. And if we could, we shouldn't get in bed with Ticketmaster or Live Nation either. Although I think that door has already been closed. But there is a better way to look at this. Somehow, some way, some shape, some form. And I'm telling you, if the ticket prices were lower, more people, more musicians would be on the road, more people would go see more shows, solving some of this problem. And there will always be the Taylor Swifts of the world. There'll always be this cultural zeitgeist where everybody has to go and they're willing to look at Cabbage Patch Kids. Those things were selling for $3,000 in 1985. Beanie Babies. $3,000 in 1985. And now they're back at $3,000 and I threw them away. Where's the Dick Tracy nostalgia when you need it?

[B]

The Dick Tracy market.

[A]

Yes. Where's the Dick Tracy market? I Would have made a killing on that. All right, well, there you go. Very interesting look at the ticketing business in general and the reason why we're all paying so much, much money to go see these live shows, sporting events, comedy, and all things in between. You know, I don't have any of the great answers. I just have some ideas. But one of those ideas was to start the commercial break, so don't trust me on anything, okay? I'm not here for answers. I'm just here to ask more questions. I'm here to muddy the waters, not clear them up. What do you want from me? I'm just a guy. Just a guy doing a podcast. But I will tell you what.

[B]

Thanks for keeping us informed.

[A]

The guy who's funding the Georgia ticket brokers and making the MLM out of it, he's a pretty dumb human being. Yeah, yeah, he's pretty dumb. I hope I see him at the Kroger.

[B]

What was that name of that company?

[A]

Elite. Elite.

[C]

Elite.

[A]

So original. That's Elite. Elite. Okay, don't use Elite. Okay, but they're probably wrapped into StubHub anyway. You wouldn't even know it. Yeah, okay. May 31, the 12 hours of TCB. Speaking of lowering ticket prices. Yeah, speaking. Speaking of doing more shows, 12 hours of TCB May 31, all to raise awareness about mental health. Awareness. And your mental health. And my mental health. And so we're all going to be out of mental health by the end of the day and celebrating five. Five years of the commercial break in coordinations with our partners at Odyssey, CTB New York, Covert Creative. And we plash. We're super excited. It's gonna be a great time, I think. Are we super excited? I don't know. Talk to me on the morning of the 31st.

[B]

It's gonna be exciting. It's gonna be fun.

[A]

It'll be fun.

[B]

We're doing it.

[A]

We'll be recording earlier than we ever had. And be happy about it. Yeah, just be happy about it. Okay. Stop texting me. Yes, we're doing it. It's gonna happen. Will we make it through all 12? I don't know. That's another question.

[B]

That's the experiment.

[A]

Yeah, that's the experiment. That's right. TCBpodcast.com your free swag audio and video at the commercial break on Instagram 212-4333, tcb and YouTube.com the commercial break for all the episodes, same day to air here on the audio. Okay, Chrissy, that's all I can do for today, I think. So I'll tell you that I love you. I love you best to you and best you out there in the podcast universe. Until next time, Chrissy and I will say we do say and we must say goodbye, Sam.