The Commune (Stuff Audio)

Episode 8: Lying Without Lying (June 5, 2022)

Overview of the Episode

This episode delves into the culture of deception and complicity at Centrepoint during and after the arrest of its leader, Bert Potter. Rather than a "whodunnit," this episode asks why people—many of them educated and principled—were willing to bend the truth, commit perjury, and perpetuate silence around severe criminality and abuse, all in service of a charismatic leader and a fragile community ideal. The story weaves together first-hand recollections, police perspectives, documentary material, and deep personal reflections on denial, complicity, healing, and the slow collapse of Centrepoint.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Psychology of Group Deception (00:14–05:00)

• Rosemary MacLeod’s reflection on educated people enabling wrongdoing:
  "Once you eliminate all the strings that tie us together … once you substitute for that blind obedience to a leader, the danger is obvious." (00:58, Rosemary MacLeod)
• MacLeod tells a chilling 1960s anecdote of university students colluding to protect one of their own, highlighting how privilege and group thinking enable cover-ups.

  "My boyfriend and I went down to make a statement, a false statement, about what we saw … the middle class people all got together and they made up a story. It was fucking unbelievable." (03:13, Rosemary MacLeod)

2. Police Surveillance and the Drug Bust (05:22–08:54)

• Ray, the detective, recounts returning to the Centrepoint investigation after gathering conclusive drug evidence:

  "We can either go through and target the whole community or … be more surgical about it. So Potter and his inner circle … were the ones we looked at." (06:17, Ray)

• On September 8, 1989, police quietly execute a search warrant, finding multiple drugs very openly in Bert’s home (LSD, ketamine, MDMA, cannabis, hash).

  "It was just sitting in the kitchen cupboards and amongst the crockery and plates. It was very open, very brazen..." (07:10, Ray)

3. The Community’s Rationalizations & The Perjury Plot (08:54–11:39)

• Bert's arrest sparks rallying from the commune, with some viewing it as persecution of a spiritual leader.
• Barry, a community member, describes pressure to lie in court:

  "Bert came to me and said, would I go on the stand… I said, I'll go on the stand and say what we were trying to do for psychological growth, but I'm not going to lie." (09:12, Barry)

• Others organize to commit perjury in Bert’s defense:

  "They mapped out this perjury case." (09:50, Barry)

• Barbara, another member, admits to lying in court:

  "I really hoped I could lie without lying… I wanted to be able to lie without lying." (10:11, Barbara) "I was directly asked if I had seen Bert give drugs to teenagers… and I said no… I knew they were given drugs." (10:48, Barbara)

4. The Trial and Bert’s Conviction (11:09–12:56)

• Despite 25 defense witnesses, Bert’s own admissions, and claims drugs were "planted," the jury convicts Potter. The judge’s summing up:

  "It was not a question of making money, it was a question of control." (12:56, Judge's conclusion summarized by Adam Dudding)

5. Bert’s Imprisonment and Persistent Influence (13:37–18:54)

• Even from prison, Bert maintains spiritual and emotional dominance via letters published in Centrepoint's magazine, framing his incarceration as a misunderstanding by a materialistic society.
• The commune rents a house in Ohura, near the prison, so members can visit Bert weekly.
• Barry inadvertently acts as a drug mule during one visit, realizing only later that the "light bulb" she brought was a cover for smuggling drugs into prison.

  "I guess he'd been told the light bulb and just kicked it under the fence behind him and got it, Joe." (17:55, Barry) "This wasn't the only odd thing about that visit. Barry noticed Bert was acting weird…" (18:12, Adam Dudding)

6. After Bert—Community Dynamics and Failing Denial (19:40–21:25)

• Despite Bert's imprisonment, drug activity at Centrepoint escalates.

  "Far from [ending], became pretty obvious that the drug offending was being ramped up… a few other heads always popped up…" (19:40–19:53, Ray)

• Bert had financial motives for drug distribution; legal costs were mounting.
• Bert’s conviction breaks the spell for many:

  "It was only after we convicted him that… we were getting a lot more people coming forward, particularly young people…" (20:35, Ray)

7. Barry’s Documents & Evidence of Complicity (21:38–29:41)

• Barry gives the producers extensive documentation ("Barry's hoard"), including her own letters to Bert and to families of victims.
• Letters reveal her conflicted, sometimes damaging attempts to “fix” things within the community, often by minimizing or rationalizing abuse.

  "[Barry, to the mother]: ...there was never any intention to damage anyone." (24:36, letter read by actor)

• Barry organized group meetings (hui) for victims' families and community members, hoping to foster healing but also to deter criminal proceedings.
• She admits her own naivete:

  "If we can explain this, he'll see it, he'll get it, and he'll go, okay, that social experiment failed. We need to change on the new evidence." (27:21, Barry)

8. Realizations, Regret, and the Disintegration of Centrepoint (29:41–31:41)

• Barry reflects with discomfort on her "double agent" role, trying to protect individuals, the community, and Bert all at once.
• She realizes she was "blinded," trying to solve problems internally rather than allowing legal justice.

  "When I was quite secretive, it was quite secretive. Sort of double agent. Yes. Yes, but it was." (28:07, Barry)

• The tectonic plates of Centrepoint begin to shift—the leader is imprisoned, key figures leave, and previously suppressed stories of abuse surface.
• Barry sums up her failed mission:

  "That had been part of my mission that weekend, to sort of get him to understand some of these things. But just seeing none of what I was saying computed. And he was just into his things." (31:09, Barry)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "People from all backgrounds can do shitty things, but there are some people who just manage to get away with bad stuff. Sometimes it's about using your privilege and sometimes it's just that people think they're above the law."
  — Adam Dudding (04:05)

• "I really hoped I could lie without lying."
  — Barbara (10:11)

• "We've got to have another community. Need a big block of land... It's got to be about love."
  — Bert, as recalled by Barry, highlighting his erratic plans (18:40)

• "Drugs are just what we really, really need. When I come home for the weekend… I want a big extravaganza of drugs."
  — Bert, via Barry (18:56)

• "It was only after we convicted him that… we were getting a lot more people coming forward, particularly young people…"
  — Ray (20:35)

• "I mean, is that still somehow believing that… He was a human being, an intelligent human being who would get it. I mean, how naive. But that's where I was."
  — Barry (27:21)

• "She still loved Centrepoint, but Centrepoint was on the brink."
  — Adam Dudding (29:44)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:14–05:00 — Rosemary MacLeod on complicity, privilege, and early warning signs
• 05:22–08:54 — Ray investigates, collects evidence, and busts Bert
• 09:12–10:48 — Barry and Barbara describe the perjury plan
• 11:09–12:56 — The trial: evidence, lies, and the judge’s conclusion
• 13:37–18:54 — Bert’s imprisonment, ongoing control, prison visits, and drug smuggling
• 19:40–21:25 — Drugs escalate at Centrepoint; community realizes Bert’s vulnerability
• 21:38–29:41 — Barry’s documents: letters, meetings, naive attempts at healing / damage control
• 29:41–31:41 — Barry’s reflections, “double agent” role, and the final unraveling

Tone and Language

The episode features a mix of investigative narrative, personal confessions, and frank, sometimes raw, recollections. The hosts and participants speak with candor and at times, with visible pain, confusion, or shame, especially when reckoning with how good intentions coexisted with huge harms.

In Summary

“Lying Without Lying” lays bare how well-intentioned people within Centrepoint colluded to protect their leader—even perjuring themselves to keep his reputation intact—only for the truth of control, abuse, and groupthink to finally begin unraveling. Through firsthand testimonies and poignant self-examinations, the episode asks not just what happened, but why people excused, enabled, and even actively concealed the crimes of one of New Zealand’s most infamous communes.