That Feeling of Helplessness

Summary

The Commune – Episode 9: "That Feeling of Helplessness"

Podcast by Stuff Audio | Air Date: June 5, 2022
A 12-part investigative podcast about Centrepoint, New Zealand's most infamous free-love commune—a story not of "whodunnit", but "whydunnit".

---

Overview

In this powerful and confronting episode (#9) titled “That Feeling of Helplessness,” Stuff Audio unpacks the chaotic fallout as police finally descend on the Centrepoint commune after years of mounting allegations. Through firsthand accounts and court records, the episode details the major 1991 police raids, the unmasking of sexual abuse and drug crimes, and the psychological dynamics that left many residents—especially children—feeling utterly powerless. It’s a harrowing look at how the commune’s open, utopian ideals mutated into secrecy, exploitation, and trauma. The tone is investigative and empathetic, weaving together survivor voices, police testimony, and the broader community’s reckoning.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Raids: The Commune Comes Crashing Down

• Early 1990s raids: For many, the first jarring awakening was police helicopters, dogs, and officers flooding Centrepoint in the early morning hours. (01:12–03:00)
  • Notable quote: “2:30, 3:00 in the morning with the choppers flying around, banging on the door…” – Adam [01:18]
  • “Police in the room.” – Barry [01:23]
• Atmosphere of shock: Residents describe bewilderment and adrenaline as they're corralled together (kitchen/dining room), suddenly treated as suspects. (04:55–06:33)
  • Renee's reflection: “And instantly I’m naked and defiant as fuck. Instantly I'm like, fuck off. I’m not getting dressed in front of a guy...” [05:04]
• Major May 1991 raid: The biggest raid (130 officers) was now about much more than drugs—it was about wide-ranging child sexual abuse. (06:33–07:00)

2. The Sexual Abuse Unveiled

• Decades of secrecy implode: With Bert Potter jailed in 1989 for drugs, former loyalties crumbled—more victims came forward, leading to trials. (07:00–10:13)
• Graphic, corroborated testimony: Girls aged 3–15 gave evidence of systematic abuse, psychological manipulation, and complicity by adults (Potter, his wife Margaret, other commune members). (15:36–22:50)
  • Courtroom horror: “She gave evidence that one time she had sex with Potter in front of a group therapy session. Breaking down in tears, she told the court she did it to prove to everyone that she was open, because that was what was expected of her.” – Adam [15:50]
  • “It was like being in an alcoholic family and being embarrassed about what was going on at home. You do not tell other people.” – Survivor testimony [19:18]
• Culture of normalization: “Potter would say that parents should initiate sexual practices with their children from birth by tickling their genitals and, quote, blowing them off from birth.” – Adam [21:36]
  • Angie: “Sometimes you would walk past the baby changing room and you’d hear the blowing off sound and you’d think, what the fuck…" [22:50]

3. Drugs at Centrepoint: Far Beyond “Chemical Enlightenment”

• Drug syndicate revealed: Centrepoint wasn’t just about LSD and mushrooms for “spirituality” – it was a major drug operation, including a laboratory producing LSD and possibly MDMA (Ecstasy). (10:52–13:26)
  • Detective Ray: “They had a paper machine… They would make sheets of LSD… then impregnate that with the liquid, dry it and then sell it.” [11:32]
• Money laundering: A complex system of fake bank accounts managed by select insiders. (12:00–13:15)
  • Ray: “There were several hundred thousands of dollars going through those accounts… It would be withdrawn almost the next day. So they had a team of people going around emptying the ATM machines, getting the cash.” [13:00]
  • Notable moment: When Ray reveals he has photographic proof to a suspect: “He just went white and Ryan looked at me and he said, ‘Well, that’s him fucked.’” [14:08]

4. The Descent into Abuse and the Struggle to Escape

• Growing realization and helplessness: Residents, especially women like Barry, experienced years of “gut feelings” and attempts to change the culture from within before finally reaching their breaking point. (31:55–34:20)
  • Barry: “It was pouring with rain. I just howled. Nobody could hear me. And it was just like, this is it. I’ve got to get out of here… Don’t know how I’m going to do it, I’ve got to get out of here.” [32:09]
  • When Barry calls out abuse at a community meeting, she’s threatened by Bert’s “henchmen.” [33:01–33:26]
• Leaving a cult is like escaping prison: Barry and others describe confusion and dislocation—a matter of mere survival in the outside world. [34:03]

5. Justice—And Injustice—Through the Courts

• Many trials, varying outcomes:
  • Bert Potter: Convicted for drug and sex offences; received cumulative sentences exceeding 10 years. (37:53–39:13)
    • Judge's words: “I ask myself whether you simply have very little self-insight… or whether you are just an evil and hypocritical man.” – sentencing [44:20]
  • Others: Multiple members convicted; some received jail time, others fines or community service depending on plea and connections. Injustice and variable accountability are a running theme. [36:09–36:44]
• Was Centrepoint destroyed? Despite half the community leaving, some residents remained in denial, and the commune lingered on. [39:37–40:22]

6. Psychological Manipulation: “You Do Not See Things Very Clearly”

• Manipulation and rationalization: Former members reflect on how abuse persisted because Centrepoint’s ideology redefined sexual boundaries itself as a kind of “therapy,” convincing victims and bystanders there was nothing wrong. (24:51–28:22)
  • Angie: “I survived there by becoming the best concubine… Just like a goddess, you know? But there were still moments when it just wasn’t right.” [24:31–24:43]
  • Adam: “In retrospect, how much of what happened to you sexually at Centrepoint do you now consider to have been abusive?” [28:14]
  • Angie, moved: “Probably what happened with Bert in that therapy room… I hadn’t really thought about that, but probably that.” [28:22]
• Peter Calder, journalist and ex-resident: “I unconditionally and unreservedly revile the sexual abuse that went on… even when it wasn’t technically illegal, because of the deep power imbalance…” [29:26–30:16]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the pressure to conform:
  • “There’s so much pressure for sex, I became a sexual robot. I don’t feel I had the choice any of the times because of the pressure, not because I was locked in a room…but because I felt pressed.” – Complainant D [18:52]
• How control collapsed after the first arrest:
  • “All of a sudden we were getting a lot more people coming forward.” – Detective Ray [03:41]
• Bert Potter on guilt and manipulation:
  • “Much easier to do something really naughty and then feel guilty about it… you feel less guilty the second time. After a few times, you know it becomes old hat and it’s no big deal at all.” – Bert Potter [39:10–39:13]
• On institutional self-preservation and isolation:
  • “It was like being in an alcoholic family… you do not tell other people.” – Unnamed mother/survivor [19:18]

---

Major Segment Timestamps

• Police Raid Experiences: 01:12–06:33
• Sex Abuse Trials: Evidence & Testimony: 15:36–22:50
• Drug Syndicate Unmasked: 10:52–14:46
• Personal Stories (Angie, Renee): 23:12–28:22
• Barry’s Escape: 31:55–34:20
• Reflections on Justice, Guilt, and Denial: 37:53–39:37

---

Reflections, Consequences, and Legacy

• Centrepoint’s “utopia” was thoroughly exposed as a site of systematic abuse and crime, enabled by secrecy, manipulation, and a warped group culture.
• Even as legal consequences fell, many survivors and former members struggled for years with the psychological legacy of what they’d endured—and what they’d been made by the community to accept as normal.
• The episode closes with chilling commentary on the durability of cultic influences and the need for courage to confront systemic denial.

---

[Content warning: Strong language, drug use, and graphic descriptions of sexual abuse throughout.]

Transcript

[A]

Stuff podcasts.

[B]

Previously on the Commune.

[C]

As a kid, it was just like, what the fuck? Like they're all doing it. So it would just be like, buzz, buzz.

[A]

She told her mum about a friend of hers who. Who was being sexually abused at Centrepoint. But the weird thing is, when we looked into this, the story sputters out.

[D]

You sort of look back and go, why didn't I leave at that point? There's all these points where you just look back and go,

[E]

um.

[A]

This episode contains drug use and strong language. Also, more than any other episode, there's some quite graphic description of sexual abuse that could be upsetting.

[B]

The noise woke us up.

[A]

2:30, 3:00 clock in the morning with the choppers flying around, banging on the door.

[D]

Police in the room.

[C]

This is a police raid. Get up and get dressed.

[A]

And there's 100 police standing there, right by the shower.

[D]

Police and dogs all around.

[B]

I remember it was pretty bewildering.

[D]

How did a nice Presbyterian girl like me end up like this?

[F]

And as you look back into your own unconscious mind, you will see that little baby there. Seeing yourself as that very, very small infant and perhaps experience experiencing some of the helplessness at that age and knowing that feeling of helplessness.

[A]

If you lived at Centre Point in the early 1990s, you. You experienced a police raid. There were so many of them. As you heard Barry saying, it's really

[D]

shocking being waking up in the morning with police and dogs all around. How did a nice Presbyterian girl like me end up like this?

[A]

Good question, Barry. In fact, how did any of the people at Centrepoint end up like this? A group of middle class, often professional people who'd decided to establish a peaceful, loving filled utopia. And now they're getting raided by police. I mean, if you've listened to the previous few episodes, of course there was a sense of inevitability about what was going to happen. But for so long, Centrepoint had seemed so untouchable. After that first arrest of Burt Potter In 1989, police investigations ramped up. As Ray the cop said, it was like with Bert in prison.

[G]

All of a sudden we were getting a lot more people coming forward.

[A]

So the control he had over everyone was no longer evident. Sure, there were still plenty of Burt loyalists, but there were also people now prepared to tell the police what had gone on at the commune, which led to multiple police visits to Centrepoint, not all of which were as polite as the time they arrested Bert and found all those drugs in his kitchen cupboards. We asked Renee about her memories of

[C]

the raids So I was definitely sexually active because I was sleeping with a guy who had a room in the annex facing the big willow tree. So if I was definitely sexually active, I would have been 12, maybe 13. And he got up to go pick magic mushrooms, because the guys used to go up to Woodhill Forest and pick magic mushrooms. And we'd stew them up and we'd put them in honey, or we'd make a milky Milo and we'd trip out on these mushrooms.

[A]

Side note, when you've interviewed a few former Centrepoint kids, you almost stop noticing the incidental facts about underage sex or drug harvesting that just pop out in the middle of a story about something totally different. Anyway, back to Renee's story. The guy she'd been sleeping with in the teenage annex had got up early

[C]

in the morning to get the mushrooms, and I went back to sleep. And then I remember the sliding door, because they were all sliding doors to those rooms being thrown open, and a police officer in the very dusky dawn light turning on the bright light and saying, this is a police raid. Get up and get dressed. And he was a guy. And instantly I'm naked and defiant as fuck. And so instantly I'm like, fuck off. I'm not getting dressed in front of a guy. Where's your woman police officer? Well, she's not available or around the other side or whatever. So I was like, well, I'll wait or I'll get dressed behind the sheet.

[G]

He was like.

[C]

So I remember, you know, turning my back the sheet over me and getting my clothes on and being hustled up to the kdr, the kitchen, dining room, where everybody was. And so, you know, there's not often that you have the whole community in one place. So it was really, really full of people. And everybody was milling around and there were police doing interviews. And I remember standing in a group of people just at the entrance of the lounge kind of going, what the fuck? Oh, my God. The guys went off mushroom picking this morning. They're going to get caught as they come back in and they'll be done for drugs and, oh, my God. But then the boys all came in looking all disheveled and, you know, fucked off. And we were like, oh, my God, what happened to you? And they're like, well, we didn't even get there. They were waiting at the bottom of the driveway. So all the cops were at the bottom of the driveway at, like, 3:34am when our guys went out in the car. So they'd been sitting down there waiting to come Back in, because, of course, it was a raid and they were getting all organised before they all swooped down on the community and woke us up from our slumber.

[A]

You can imagine the adrenaline, the shock of the whole community being corralled in the kdr, the kitchen, dining room, like that. But what was more shocking for the people of Centrepoint was that the biggest raid, May 22, 1991, when 130 cops turned up to surround the place. It wasn't just about drugs. It was about sex abuse. I'm Adam Dudding and this is the commune. Episode 9. That feeling of helplessness after years and years of avoiding any comeuppance for the child sex abuse which had been going on at the Commune for a long, long time. Judgment Day was here. Women who'd been abused as young girls had talked to the police. In the end, six of them agreed to give evidence against their abusers. And in the big raid of May 1991, a bunch of people were swept up. Bert Potter, of course, was prime among them, eventually convicted of sexually assaulting five of the girls. His wife Margaret, was also convicted. Dave, the finance guy, he was sent to jail too. Other Originals convicted of sex crimes included Ulrich, the chemical engineer from Switzerland, and Keith, the GP and former missionary. Two other men, a guy called Richard, another called Henry and another woman, all who'd been there from the early days. They went to jail too. Burt Potter's son, John Potter, him as well. He was eventually jailed for six crimes against two underage girls. Also Barry's ex husband, John, father of her youngest child. He pleaded guilty to historic offences against two young girls. There were others, and not all of them still lived at Centrepoint. The police had reached all the way back to those early days of the Commune, bringing charges for crimes that dated back as far as 1978. Dean Thomas, that detective who'd first started investigating Centrepoint, he was even called as a witness to tell Potter's trial about those initial inquiries. Remember the ones that came to a screeching halt after Potter and one of Dean's superiors shared a cup of tea and bickies. And the thing we learned about during our reporting, the case of the young girl who learned that her friend was being abused and told her mum about it. And then the police as well. The case that went nowhere. Yep. That abused friend was one of the six who eventually gave evidence in the Centrepoint sex abuse trials.

[F]

Allow yourself to let the clock go for a while so that you take the time to just be there.

[A]

The year is 2020. The outbreak centres on the city of a deadly pandemic is raging. And in Aotearoa, New Zealand cabinet meet this afternoon. Our governments slams the border shut. I'm Adam Dudding.

[B]

I'm Eugene Bingham. And in our new series, Quarantine Nation, we are looking back at New Zealand's experience of a global catastrophe.

[D]

You're holding in your hand this sample

[C]

and it's like, this could just change New Zealand.

[B]

I can recall pacing around the room thinking, we've just got to move quickly.

[A]

Living through Covid was deeply weird.

[F]

Big surge in New Zealand. So, you know, it's terrible.

[B]

So in Quarantine Nation we take a minute to figure out just what happened.

[A]

What were they thinking? What was the world thinking? Made with the support of NZ On Air out now. So sexual abuse was the big focus of that major raid in May of 1991. But the police weren't done with looking at the drug crimes either. Sure, Potter was already in jail for drug possession, but Ray, the detective, had suspected the drugs at Centrepoint were more than just a bunch of people using some chemical assistance to achieve spiritual enlightenment. From what he'd been hearing, it went way further than that. Centrepoint, he'd been told, was running a major drug network. But he needed evidence. And so, unbeknownst to Centrepoint, police had been tailing and monitoring community members. At one point, Ray and a small team snuck into the commune in the early hours of the morning to search for what they'd been told was a drug lab.

[G]

We obviously had that place under surveillance for quite some time, and so we were able to pick our time when we went in and it was under the COVID of darkness, we were able to do quite a detailed search because we were doing scientific testing of surfaces and getting samples, and we had a scientist with us who knew exactly what they should be looking for.

[A]

And as Centrepoint slept, bingo.

[G]

And I remember that we found some drugs and the makings of a rudimentary laboratory. There were precursor chemicals and there was a precursor to mdma.

[A]

Mdma, also known as Ecstasy.

[G]

And there was also strong indications that they were either importing bulk liquid LSD or they were manufacturing it there as well. They were manufacturing the paper because they had a paper machine. So they'd make sheets of LSD, I think 100 to a sheet. They were printed with a certain design and then they would impregnate that with the liquid, dry it and then sell it.

[A]

Who was running all this? Well, remember, handily enough, Centrepoint had a chemical engineer as a member, Ulrich, the Swiss guy. Who originally came to New Zealand to work at a commercial paper mill. And the finance side of the business, that was left to someone else.

[G]

So they compartmentalised their operation. They had people who were packaging it and sending it away, and then you had someone looking after the money because the money was what they wanted.

[A]

But tracking down the money men of Centrepoint's drug operation was tricky. It's not like they opened up a bank account called CP Drugloot. Eventually, Ray got a tip with the fake name that had been used to open a series of bank accounts. It was a common name, so it took Ray ages to get around all the banks and trawl through all their paperwork. But then one day, he's sitting in his office and he looks at one particular account and the photo identification used to open the account is for a man from Centrepoint, a guy called Ian.

[G]

And he's a very distinctive looking man. That was like, eureka. Gotcha.

[A]

Ray hunts down more fake accounts opened by this guy Ian.

[G]

There were several hundred thousands of dollars going through those accounts and money would be deposited, smaller amounts. It was the early days of the ATM machines and it would be withdrawn almost the next day. So they had a team of people going around emptying the ATM machines, getting the cash.

[A]

What Ray had found confirmed his suspicions. Potter and his cronies weren't just giving drugs to fellow Centrepoint members. They had a wide and sophisticated distribution network set up.

[G]

If you wanted to buy drugs from them, you were given a phone number and you put a phone order in. They would then supply you with a bank account number never met, face to face. And once that money lobbed into the account, they would then get an address from you, or they already had the address and they would just courier or mail the drugs to you. So there was never any direct handover between supplier and user. You know, smart.

[A]

But now Ray and his team were onto them. He invited Ian, that's the guy with the fake bank accounts, to come in for an interview. Ian brought his lawyer, a guy called Kevin Ryan. Ray put some allegations to Ian without letting on that he had a copy of the licence, which had been used as id, to open the fake accounts.

[G]

You know, just deny, deny, deny, deny, deny. And then I said to him, well, what have you got to say about this? And I put the license on the table with his photograph on it. Well, he just went white and Ryan looked at me and he said, I think we should pause the interview. Right. Can I have word with you outside? He walked out into the corridor, closed the door and he said, well, that's him fucked.

[A]

Eventually, Ian and Ulrich and Potter were given jail terms for running the drug network. But plenty of people at Centrepoint reckon that what got to court was just the tip of the iceberg. There are still rumours about secret bank accounts in Thailand and Switzerland.

[D]

Well, there were so many secrets.

[A]

This is Barry again.

[D]

It makes sense. Certain people did go to Thailand, certain people did go traveling to Switzerland and Europe.

[A]

And that wasn't all that happened. That was a bit sus.

[D]

One of the teenagers found a cheque book hidden in the library behind some books with the name of the LSD making man.

[A]

She means Ulrich, but. But she doesn't want to say his name out loud.

[D]

And also, the lady running the laundry found about $5,000 in the pocket of the same guy and just said nothing, but took it up and put it on his bed or under his pillow or something.

[A]

So after the raid, some of Centrepoint's secrets about the drug network are finally, finally out in the open. And it's the same with the sex crimes. After all these years of rumours and insinuation, the wider world starts to find out in detail what really went on at Centrepoint, including incidents right back in the earliest days of the commune. Let's start with the evidence in court. Those five girls who gave evidence against Potter and his wife Margaret. They were aged between 3 and 15 when the sexual contact began. Several of the victims told the court how Margaret would be present as Potter abused them and even got involved, sometimes fondling their breasts, kissing them or masturbating herself. Complainant A was 12 when the abuse by Potter began. She gave evidence that one time she had sex with Potter in front of a group therapy session. Breaking down in tears, she told the court she did it to prove to everyone that she was open, because that was what was expected of her. Complainant A's mother also gave evidence, telling the court she was heartbroken when she discovered what Potter was doing to her daughter. But she also told the court about an occasion when she'd gone to see the Potters in their car case because she was upset. She ended up in bed with Bert Potter and while they were having sex, a young child, the girl asked Potter to tickle her. Margaret pleaded with Potter to send the child away, but he insisted the girl stay. Complainant A's mother said although she did not actively take part in what was happening, she stayed on the bed while Potter abused the girl. She told the court that at the time, the incident didn't have an enormous impact on her because it was in keeping with what Potter was teaching them. The girl had asked for the sexual contact. She was not forced. If there was anyone who had a problem with it. Complainant A's mother said, according to Centrepoint's teachings, it was her. The girl in that particular incident on the bed was Complainant B. She was three when Potter first began interfering with her and having her touch his genitals. When she was aged about eight, she got home from school with her end of year report. She wanted to show her mother who was in Pot Potter's room. She walked in and they were having sex. The girl was told to wait until they finished. Then her mother left and Potter asked her to stay so he could blow her off. The famous Centrepoint raspberry that we heard Potter bragging about in episode two. Potter then got her to perform oral sex on him. Another mother who gave evidence said she once walked into Potter's room and found Complainant B sitting naked on Potter's stomach. Her own daughter, aged 2 and a half, was also on the bed. Under cross examination, she said she did nothing about the incident at the time. Asked why not, she said, when you get swept up in it like I did, you do not see things very clearly. It was like being in an alcoholic family and being embarrassed about what was going on at home. You do not tell other people. Complainant C was 11 when Potter used his finger to try to break her hymen, saying it was for her own good. She had never heard the word before. Complainant D moved into the community on her own when she was 15 and said there was so much pressure for sex, she became a sexual robot. I don't feel I had the choice any of the times because of the pressure, not because I was locked in a room with chains and could not escape, but because I felt pressed, pressured. Once, Margaret promised Complainant D to Potter as a present for his birthday. When she resisted, Margaret yelled at her in front of others and Complainant D relented. Complainant E said that within two weeks of arriving at Centrepoint with her mother and her mother's partner, her mother's partner tried to have sex with her. She was 14. Another time, the man tried. Potter saw what was happening and told the man to leave. A few days later, Potter told the girl to go to a group room with him. There, he told her she wasn't ready for sex, but made her lie down and performed oral sex on her. Complainant E told the court she was disgusted, but knew that it was supposed to be a privilege. So these Five girls gave evidence against Potter and several of them also gave evidence against others. One of the girls was indecently assaulted by both Potter and his son John Potter. A sixth girl, complainant F, testified that she had suffered abuse in the form of digital penetration and oral sex for six years from the age of five, but not from Potter. All of these cases related to offending from the early days of Centrepoint. Historic crimes, you could say. But at a later trial, two other women stepped forward to give evidence about being sexually assaulted. Much later, in the late 1980s. During that period when Centrepoint was deep into its drug experimentation phase, the women told police about being sexually abused when they were aged about 13 and 16. The offender was about 40. One of the two women from that later trial wrote a book about her experiences using the pseudonym Ala James. It's called Surviving Centrepoint and it's a tough read as she outlines the grim experience of being a sexual target in a place like Centrepoint. She said there were other men who abused her, but nothing else got to court because she was too high on the drugs she'd been given to be able to pinpoint the specifics necessary to press charges. The accounts of sexual abuse are all awful enough, but Ella also paints a wider picture of neglect that's sometimes even more shocking. In her adulthood, Ella suffers from bad teeth and she realises that back at Centrepoint, she was never taken to a dentist. She was, however, taken to the sexual health clinic plenty of times. God forbid that the men abusing her be put in danger of catching something. Like in Ella's case, a lot of what happened at Centrepoint didn't go to court. Sometimes women couldn't face the prospect of giving evidence. It's a bruising, brutal experience. But we've seen plenty of documents and accounts about abuse and pressure to have sex. There's a statement we've seen from one woman about what she saw and what she was taught at Centrepoint. She talks about one girl, aged about 13, who had three different sexually transmitted diseases at the same time and could hardly walk with the pain. In the statement, the woman also says Potter encouraged incest and that she knew of a parent having sex with their own child. She says Potter would say that parents should initiate sexual practices with their children from birth by tickling their genitals and, quote, blowing them off from birth. Hard to believe, Perhaps. But here's something we heard during our interview with Angie.

[E]

Sometimes you would walk past the baby changing room and you hear the blowing off sound and you'd think, what the fuck but there was a lot of things like that where you'd think, what the fuck? And you never questioned them because there were so many what the fucks, you know,

[A]

Between Angie and her sister Renee, we heard some pretty raw stuff about what it was like for some teenage girls at Centrepoint. Renee explained to us what happened after she'd lost her virginity. Remember, she was about 12 or 13 at the time.

[C]

I was in a really cuspy kind of age where I was still a young girl. So the advances that I got from men, I would just turn down because it was like sleeping with my father. So going off with adults wasn't a thing that I aspired to do at all. And the ones that asked me were the younger ones. We had some guys in their sort of twenties who came and forged relationships with our teenage girls. And some of them were a bit creepy as well. And I did go off with one of them. And, yeah, it was. It was weird. It was just weird. It just felt like I was a child and he was an adult and I couldn't. Yeah, there was no release or anything. It just was a bit creepy.

[A]

Angie was six years older than Renee. She was 15 when she arrived. And she says she. She tried flipping Centrepoint's sex culture to her own advantage as a coping mechanism.

[E]

I survived there by becoming the best concubine, like, becoming the most desired, the most, you know, like. Just like a goddess, you know?

[A]

But there were still moments when it just wasn't right. There was one particular time she felt

[E]

out of her depth when I had gone off with someone. And it was always by choice. It was always by choice for me. I was 16. I could do what I wanted, you know, I was already in control of my sexual life when I was a little bit younger than that. Sometimes men at Centrepoint, when they came, they'd have a practice of yelling really loudly, like, bellowing, almost like a moose. And so you'd be lying there and they'd come, and if they're on top of you and yell so loudly that I would go deaf in one of my ears. And I would go into. Of course, just go into shock because it was just so, so loud, like. And then years later, someone said to me, oh, that's because they're letting everyone in the community know that they're orgasming. And I was just like, oh, my God, like, what? At the expense of someone's ear drummer who. They're yelling and they've just had an intimate experience. I couldn't compute the whole thing. It just seemed Too weird.

[A]

Angie also told us about sexual experiences with Potter. She certainly did not find him attractive.

[E]

Sometimes he would come past and pat you on the bottom or whatever. And I just thought, I just felt disgusting. Like, fuck off. Why would I want to go anywhere near you? I'm not attracted to you.

[A]

But then a Centrepoint counsellor told her she needed to do some work to overcome her sexual blocks. And the way to do it was to arrange therapy with Potter for him to blow her off.

[E]

It's like, oh, okay, well, if someone's suggesting this is good for my sexual blocks. And, you know, I'd known things that happened to me in the past, so it seemed like therapy.

[A]

So she was told to basically make a booking to go up to Potter's Gills Road Home. Thing was, there was something else that you could make bookings for up at the Gills Road Home. Something a lot more wholesome, I guess. There was a new set of twins born in the community. They were premature. And the science says that it's really good for prem babies to spend time lying skin to skin on their parents chest or on anyone's chest, really. So there was a booking system set up just for that.

[E]

And you would book in a book to go and hold the babies. They wanted them on skin contact all the time. So, like, me and my sister would go up and we'd have the little twins on our chest. And it was just such a beautiful time.

[A]

So Angie kind of kills two birds with one stone. She times the two bookings at the Gills Road house for the same day. She goes up with her sister so they can each hold a twin against their bare skin. Then straight afterwards, it's time for that blowing off session with pottery.

[E]

So she went into the next room, like just behind the lounge and be blown off quite noisily with whoever was holding the babies in the next room. And then he would blow you off for the therapy and you'd be screaming, crying, whatever else. And then when you're just completely, like, completely exhausted and having had this whole emotional process, then he would fuck you. And it was just like weird because it was therapy, but then he was taking his pleasure. And I think because I'd had this whole process, I just let him do his bit. But it always felt gross because it wasn't about. It just wasn't about sex. I didn't want to have sex with him. Yeah.

[A]

In retrospect, how much of what happened to you sexually at Centrepoint do you now consider to have been abusive?

[E]

Probably what happened with Bert in that therapy Room. Yeah, when I think about that, Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that, but probably that.

[A]

When the revelations about the sex abuse came out in those early 1990 trials, of course it was shocking. How could it not be? But also, it kind of wasn't. Adam, I was not surprised. This is when Hoadley, the former Takapuna mayor, I was not shocked. I was relieved. I think we just thought, well, there you are, we told you so. Derek Firth, the lawyer neighbour who had led the opposition to Centrepoint's expansion, no one believed us and, you know, people wrongly rejected our evidence. For people who had been more intimately connected to Centrepoint, what came out was more confronting. The drugs, the sex. They had to figure out where they stood. Here's retired journalist and one time Centrepoint resident visitor Peter Calder.

[H]

Over the years, whenever I spoken to people about Centrepoint and said anything positive, people have sometimes accused me of condoning what went on there. I don't really have much of a problem with the drug taking, but I unconditionally and unreservedly revile the sexual abuse that went on. And the sexual contact, even when it wasn't technically illegal, that went on with young, with very young women or older girls because of the deep power imbalance that was involved in those relationships. I think they were profoundly unfair and abusive. I have to admit that I didn't really see it that way at the time because I saw what was occurring as occurring in a specific context. But I do now and have for a long time

[A]

stay with us.

[F]

We have to accept that those principles are not captured very carefully. It's like doing some way, the basic principles of the entire combined.

[A]

When the sex abuse arrests hit Centre Point, that storm that threatens to blow the place apart, Barry is still hanging in there, still living at Centrepoint, despite all her reservations, despite now having empirical evidence not only from that Larry Constantine book, but from the police, that the gut feeling she'd first had when she saw that girl on the lawn incident all those years ago was spot on. What had happened to the children was wrong. There's no getting away from the fact that Barry is a complicated character. She figured out that the culture of Centrepoint was toxic, but she spent so long trying to change it from the inside and couldn't. So what did she think when the police arrived, all 130 of them, to round up a bunch of people she'd been living with for a decade, people she considered her Centrepoint family? Did that finally tip her over the edge? The beginning of the end of Barry's Centrepoint days. Well, at least her time living there is one rainy night not long after the big raid. She's helping with a seven day therapy workshop. Yes, remarkably, people are still going to Centrepoint for therapy. Anyway, it's Barry's job to help settle these guests for the night. She's just shown the last group into the therapy room.

[D]

And I tripped coming down the steps in the rain and I sprained my ankle really badly. The pain was horrendous and it was just. I just kind of gave up. My foot was just. I'd heard it crack. The therapy center was all soundproofed, nobody could hear a thing. The community was over the bridge far away. It was pouring with rain. I just howled. Nobody could hear me. And it was just like, this is it. I've got to get out of here. Don't know how I'm going to do it. I've got to get out of here.

[A]

Eventually, someone finds her and she gets help. But she's made her mind up and she begins to figure out how she can escape because that's what it feels like to her. In the meantime, she's outspoken. There's one community meeting and I was

[D]

sitting down on a cushion and she's

[A]

saying that things need to change.

[D]

There has to be a total agreement that this absolutely has to stop. And if anybody, if there's any incident of sexual abuse of minors, that person has to be required to leave the community. And suddenly there were five big guys up on their feet and all of them had a history of violence. And Bert always had a group of. I call them the henchmen.

[A]

So these guys are intimidating Barry and

[D]

she realises it's no longer safe for me. I've got the knowledge I can't live with this anymore. I really have got to leave.

[A]

She makes her escape plans with a man she's formed a relationship with.

[D]

He was very practical and stashed things like washing powder away. I think we just helped each other get out. We did stay together for a while, but I think more we just helped each other get out through that difficulty

[A]

because frankly, it's difficult leaving a cult, a place she'd been in since 1978.

[D]

First of all, leaving was. It was just surviving, you know, the world had changed so much. I can remember just walking up and down past a money machine in Browns Bay and sort of people are getting money out of this. How is that happening?

[A]

As bewildering as it was, though, Barry was free at last.

[F]

Shall people do the most? Shall people do the most?

[A]

After the major raid. Barry wasn't the only person to leave. Far from it. In short order, about 100 people were gone, including Len, the guy who literally wrote the book about the place. For those who stayed at Centrepoint, the court cases dragged on like a messy and complicated soap opera. As well as the sex and drugs trials, there were cases about perjury, that big conspiracy to cover up for Potter during his first drugs trial. Barbara, the woman who had tried to lie without lying, she was one of the people eventually charged.

[D]

Yeah, for a while I felt dreadful about perjury charges because I saw people being taken away from their children and all of that, but I pleaded guilty and I didn't have to lie about that. I said, yep, I pictured myself.

[A]

To be perfectly honest, it's hard to keep track of precisely how many people from Centrepoint went before the courts. Some of them were no longer members, some of them got permanent name suppression. One of the women who was charged with sex crimes later wrote in the Centrepoint magazine about the whole process. First there was the anxious wait for the outcome of her case.

[I]

Am I going to be a convicted criminal, guilty of ruining young people's lives, or am I going to be given name suppression and a community service for my part? In the culture that Centrepoint evolved all those years ago when we believed sex was fine for anyone who wanted it anytime, anywhere.

[A]

And then the result, convicted and sentenced to nine months in prison. And. And she contrasts that with what's happened to someone else who was found guilty of sex crimes. Unlike her, this person got name suppression and instead of a jail sentence, they just had to pay a fine. In that same article, she I can

[I]

crumble into a well of self pity and rage at a justice system that allows those with the right connections to be given fines and name suppression, while others serve long sentences with full publicity. Or I can get on with the challenge.

[A]

The longest sentence, of course, landed on Herbert Thomas Potter. He had initially got three and a half years prison for his first drug sentence. Then he got seven and a half years for the sex offences against the five girls. Then another 26 months for the drug conspiracy with Ulrich and Ian, and then four months for perjury. At the sentencing for the sex crimes, the judge told Potter, I ask myself whether you simply have very little self insight, despite all your claims to skills as a counsellor of others, or whether you are just an evil and hypocritical man. What was he about, this kid who went to Sunday school, grew a successful business, reinvented himself as a self proclaimed spiritual Leader and then went on to become a convicted drug supplier and child sex offender. Was he a con man? Well, yeah. A sexual predator? Absolutely. A psychopath? Well, I'm not a psychiatrist, but here's some of what we know about Potter. In his own words. He's a guy who frequently boasted about playing games with people.

[F]

I often stir people up around here when I do this. I often see somebody doing something, something quite stupid, and I just drop a little remark at them which tends to hit them right on the button.

[A]

Who turned the idea of letting out your feelings, murderous thoughts from time to

[F]

time you probably never told them. Now if you actually went to that person, you told them about the thoughts

[A]

you had into a weapon.

[F]

So you're really doing them a good turn by telling them that. Of course, you could get your own back on them a lot too, because you just have to sort of hover anywhere around them within 20 yards and they probably break down to a new after the first three or four weeks. So it's just a little gimmick I'm giving. You know, you can really work on that one.

[A]

A guy who had no doubt that he was right and the law was wrong.

[F]

I don't know how far we can go with open sexuality. You don't go very far, of course, before you start coming into conflict with the law on it.

[A]

And questioned whether there was anything wrong at all about sexual contact between adults and children.

[F]

But how much of that is due to the actual actions and how much is due to the societal attitude toward it? I don't know.

[A]

A man who certainly wasn't going to let the notion of guilt stop him from enjoying himself.

[F]

Let your guilt take care of itself tomorrow and it'll be there. It'll be waiting for you. But at least give yourself something to be guilty about.

[A]

Besides, guilt always faded away if you did something often enough.

[F]

Much easier to build. Do something really naughty and then feel guilty about it. At least you know what you're being guilty about. You know how to do it again another time you feel less guilty the second time. After a few times, you know it becomes old hat and it's no big deal at all.

[G]

Try that and see.

[F]

With that, I'll stop burbling.

[A]

By 1994, with Potter and quite a few of his cronies locked up, Centrepoint has taken a hurricane sized hit. As the Centrepoint magazine put it. We have survived major police raids, seen many of our loved ones convicted of criminal offences and imprisoned, spent a king's ransom on lawyers and seen our membership reduced by half to the 140 current residents. The place is toast, right? Wrong. Centrepoint is bent, but it isn't broken yet. And some of the people still living there seem determined to ignore the lessons of the past, the lessons you might have thought they'd have learned when their guru went to prison for drug and sex crimes.

[B]

When I was about 14, 15, my Christmas present was a tab of LSD.

[A]

They always sort of hung around and watched. You old yucky woman.

[D]

This shouldn't be happening. This can't be happening. Someone should close this down.

[A]

That was episode nine of the Commune, a Stuff production. It was researched, written and produced by Eugene Bingham and me, Adam Dudding. Mixing by Andrew MacDowell at Digicag Music by Audio Network for more information about the show, head to Stuff. Co NZ thecommune.

[F]

Sam.

[A]

The year is 2020. The outbreak centres on the city of a deadly pandemic is raging and in Aotearoa, New Zealand cabinet meet this afternoon, our government slams the border shut. I'm Adam Dudding.

[B]

I'm Eugene Bingham. And in our new series Quarantine Nation, we are looking back at New Zealand's experience of a global catastrophe.

[D]

You're holding in your hand this sample and it's like, this could just change New Zealand.

[B]

I can recall pacing around the room thinking, we've just got to move quickly.

[A]

Living through Covid. Covid was deeply weird.

[F]

Big surge in New Zealand. So, you know, it's.

[A]

It's terrible.

[B]

So in Quarantine Nation, we take a minute to figure out just what happened?

[A]

What were they thinking? What was the world thinking? Made with the support of NZ On Air out now.