Zombie Commune

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Commune – Episode 11, "Zombie Commune"

Podcast: The Commune
Host: Stuff Audio (Adam Dudding, Eugene Bingham)
Date: June 5, 2022
Description: This episode delves into the final efforts to bring down Centrepoint, a notorious free-love commune in New Zealand, focusing on the strategic, legal, and emotional battles that marked its dissolution. The narrative follows Barry and her allies' journey to close the commune after criminal convictions failed to completely solve the problem, drawing parallels to the famous Al Capone tax prosecution. The episode is an exploration of why these events unfolded, not just what happened.

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode ("Zombie Commune") examines how, after the criminal convictions at Centrepoint (including founder Bert Potter for sexual abuse), the fight did not end. Survivors and former members—especially Barry—had to find new ways to dismantle Centrepoint and prevent further abuse. The episode details legal, financial, and moral strategies, infighting among ex-members, and the lingering cultural trauma, focusing on how justice was ultimately achieved by "following the money."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Al Capone" Strategy: Attacking the Trust (00:34–07:52)

• Intro: Previous attempts at justice (prison sentences for abusers) did not kill Centrepoint; the institution "kept coming back."
• Barry's Mission: Realizing ongoing danger and abuse, Barry decides to take down Centrepoint by targeting its finances:
  • “When you want to take down the bad guys, sometimes it’s best to ignore the big stuff, the bad stuff, and really sweat the small stuff.” (Adam, 02:59)
• Historical Analogy: The hosts liken the approach to how Al Capone was imprisoned not for his most obvious crimes, but for tax evasion.

2. Trauma, Survival, and Forgiveness (03:34–06:40)

• Personal Toll: Barry discusses lasting trauma from her time at the commune, her children's suffering, and the necessity of self-forgiveness as a survival mechanism (05:08).
  • "You can't undo the harm that was done to your children and the family. Yeah, that's really hard to live with." (Barry, 04:52)
  • "That had to be my survival strategy." (Barry, 05:49)

3. The Legal Labyrinth: Breaking Down the Trust (06:40–13:19)

• Barry's Legal Fight: Attempts to get back assets proved impossible under trust law; charitable trust contributions are generally irreversible.
• Persistence: Barry’s persistence leads her to Crown Law, which eventually considers action if she provides six affidavits of criminal activity (11:47).
  • "If you can get six affidavits about criminal activity, we might look into it." (Crown Law, as relayed by Barry, 11:47)
• Forming an Alliance: With lawyer Bruce Gray’s help, the strategy shifts to reforming the trust, not destroying it outright (12:34).

4. Internal Divisions: Factions and Infighting (13:19–15:48)

• Four Main Factions:
  1. Ex-adult members (led by Barry).
  2. Ex-children/young survivors (skeptical but aligning strategically).
  3. Reformers aiming for a "new" community without Potter.
  4. Old Believers ("Potter loyalists").
• Legal Battle: All factions, with their own lawyers, vie over assets and vision, resulting in a prolonged standoff.

5. Pushing for Inquiry and the Mole (15:56–22:29)

• Solicitor General's Inquiry: Barry's persistent political and legal lobbying results in QC Ailsa Duffy leading an inquiry (16:37).
  • "The tenacity it took to embark on this mission..." (Adam, 17:06)
• The Mole: Barry receives crucial internal information from her ex-husband, John Sweden, who becomes an insider informant, handing her documents and secretly taped meetings.
  • "I was very protective of him for years. But now, you know..." (Barry, 18:22)

6. The Morally Complicated Figure of John Sweden (22:29–27:40)

• Background: John, both an abuser and later a penitent figure, is complex—helping Barry take down Centrepoint after his own conviction.
• Court Acknowledgement: Judge recognizes John's "considerable courage and leadership in taking this stand" by pleading guilty and accepting wrongdoing (24:31).
• Satire as Survival: John’s dark humor and satirical carols reflect both the absurdity and horror of Centrepoint.
  • "Recipient for his dedication to fundamentalism and believing his own bullshit. Sign 30th of October, 1996. Signature: God." (John's satire, 25:29)

7. Escalating Tension and Community Collapse (28:26–33:41)

• Violence & Chaos: As tensions mount, there are altercations—symbolized by a "bowl of muesli" incident and police weapons seizures.
• Cultural Rifts: 1990s Centrepoint becomes a highly divided, sad environment, especially for children.
• Public Perception: Media interviews (notably with Dave, the finance guy) reveal ongoing denial and blame-shifting among some members (30:01–31:43).

8. The Legal and Financial Endgame (33:41–39:50)

• Inquiry’s Findings: Ailsa Duffy’s report eviscerates Centrepoint’s religious and therapeutic claims, exposes financial abuses, and undermines remaining legal defenses.
  • "The utopian ideal never eventuated.” (Ailsa Duffy report, 35:27)
• Asset Division: After court-ordered negotiation led by Justice Cartwright, the former members (including those convicted) are paid to leave:
  • "I will put in $20 for five buckets and you can..." (Barry, shouting in frustration, 38:18)
• Emotional Fallout: Restructuring is achieved, but those who fought for justice bear resentment for necessary compromises.

9. Aftermath: New Trust and Lingering Trauma (39:50–41:56)

• Closure: On March 29, 2000, Centrepoint ceases to exist. Assets are managed by a new trust (the NZ Community Growth Trust) for former members’ welfare.
• Complicated Healing: Ex-members, especially children, receive some reparations, but many still feel unsatisfied or retraumatized by the process.

10. Silence, Denial, and the Difficulty of Accountability (41:56–54:01)

• Reluctance to Speak: Attempts to interview various former leaders and members mostly fail; there is persistent resistance, denial, and focus on protecting families.
  • "There has not been any publicity about Centrepoint that has done my family [any good], and that's all." (Anonymous ex-member, 44:15)
• Reflection on Silence: The hosts express frustration at the silence, suggesting it perpetuates harm and hinders healing.
• Final Calls: Even after years, many refuse to engage, while others (like Felicity, Centrepoint GP) downplay involvement or insist on the futility of apologies (49:54, 50:19).
• Episode Close: Despite the collapse, no true "happy ending"—but some steps toward accountability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On strategic tenacity:
  • "You follow the money."
    – Adam Dudding/Barry, 07:54
• On trauma and survival:
  • "You can't undo the harm that was done to your children and the family. Yeah, that's really hard to live with."
    – Barry, 04:52
• On reforming vs. destroying the trust:
  • "He says, look, Barry, if you go for closing the trust, everything will go back to the Crown. What we have to do is close the community, but just reform the trust."
    – Barry, 12:40
• On old wounds:
  • "There are others coming to trial who are denying their part in such matters. The pressure on you not to break ranks must have been quite strong."
    – Judge, 24:31
• On resentment over financial settlements:
  • "How dare you agree to give them any money at all?"
    – Others (via Barry's recollection), 39:13
• On silence and denial:
  • "There has not been any publicity about Centrepoint that has done my family [any good], and that's all."
    – Anonymous former member, 44:15
• Satirical humor as coping:
  • "Recipient for his dedication to fundamentalism and believing his own bullshit."
    – John Sweden’s certificate, 25:29

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Al Capone strategy explained: 00:34–03:04
• Barry's trauma and survival: 03:34–06:40
• Legal avenues and trust battle: 06:40–13:12
• Four factions explained: 13:19–15:48
• Solicitor General's Inquiry: 16:37–17:11
• Introduction of Barry’s mole (John): 18:08–19:56
• John’s background & complexity: 22:04–24:46
• Centrepoint’s collapse: 33:41–39:50
• Setting up the new trust: 39:50–41:56
• Attempts and failures to interview ex-members: 41:56–54:01

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Summary

This episode provides a rich, detailed overview of the arduous, often painful process of dismantling Centrepoint, long after the crimes were supposed to be over. It explores not just the legal tactics but the trauma, persistence, and inner divisions that shaped this effort, presenting the story as one of hard-won accountability rather than classical closure. The original voices, especially Barry’s, imbue the narrative with honesty, anger, trauma, and a grim sense of humor. The episode is a must-listen for those interested in the complex aftermath of cults, restorative justice, and the long, slow work of community reckoning.

Transcript

[Eugene Bingham]

Stuff podcasts. Previously on the Commune.

[Adam Dudding]

Here was an entity called Centrepoint who were run by a trust. The surrender of all their worldly goods

[Dave (finance guy)]

was a very, very minor thing that they did. And then you had someone looking after the money because the money was what they wanted.

[Adam Dudding]

This episode contains strong language and references to sexual abuse and suicidal thoughts. There's a piece of the Centrepoint story that we're going to look at in this episode, and basically it comes down to this. When Barry realised that sending Bert Potter and his cronies to prison for sexual abuse hadn't dealt to the problem of Centrepoint, they kept on coming back. She came up with a new strategy. And anyway, every time I start telling anyone about this strategy, they go, oh, you mean like Al Capone? And yeah, it is a bit like Al Capone. You know that story, right? Alphonse Scarlet Scarface Capone was a Chicago gangster during America's Prohibition era. That's in the 1920s and 1930s. And he was as gangster as they come. Illegal bars and distilleries, gambling houses, nightclubs, illegal racehorse tracks. He bribed police, bribed judges, he bribed officials, and he literally killed off his competition. Most notoriously was the Valentine's day massacre of 1929, when he ordered the killing of seven rivals. But despite all this violence and mayhem that everyone knew about, Capone was somehow untouchable. No one could ever get him on murder or racketeering charges. He was a genius at keeping his distance from the crimes he had ordered. His fingerprints were never anywhere near the scene. Then one day, a particularly smart investigator with the US treasury figured out a way to get him go after Capone for tax fraud. Capone's income wasn't legal, but it was still income. And you gotta pay tax on income, even if you're a gangster. So the Treasury's special agent followed the money, and sure enough, he got his man. I mean, it took two juries, because Capone paid off the first one, of course. But eventually, Capone landed in jail because of his accounts. That was the lesson to be learned from the story of Al Scarface Capone. When you want to take down the bad guys, sometimes it's best to ignore the big stuff, the bad stuff, and really sweat the small stuff.

[Henry]

While you may not consciously be able to recall everything that happens to you, it's all stored in the unconscious mind. And as you let go a little deeper go, you can begin to contact that reality of yourself, begin to experience that there is something very deep inside, something very important.

[Adam Dudding]

I'm adam dudding. And this is the commune. Episode 11, zombie commune. Over the past year, as we've caught up with Barry, perfect hysterical is exactly what we need. Sometimes it feels like she's a woman on a mission.

[Barry]

I haven't been hysterical the last few

[Adam Dudding]

days, but sometimes it's evident that life is tough.

[Barry]

I've been down and the dumps and.

[Adam Dudding]

And no wonder. She's been through hell. In some ways, she's still going through it. Well, we'll tell you some jokes to, you know, cheer you up. That'll fix it, won't it? That's how it works. Don't know if telling jokes is considered a leading psychotherapeutic technique. I mean, you'd know more than me. She has ways of coping.

[Barry]

I do watch stand up comedy sometimes.

[Adam Dudding]

Yeah, it does help, but. But when you've lived in a cult, escaped from it, and then fought to bring it down, it's inevitable that you still have demons.

[Barry]

That is the dark times, that's the sadness, that's the. You can't get those years back.

[Adam Dudding]

And for Barry and other parents from the commune, it's not just about Centrepoint, the entity, it's personal.

[Barry]

You can't undo the harm that was done to your children and the family. Yeah, that's really hard to live with.

[Adam Dudding]

Is it important perhaps to find forgiveness for that part of yourself as well, though?

[Barry]

It is. I mean, that's the only way to survive. You know, a long time ago, fairly newly out, when I was kind of the enormity of it and the effect on my children was just overwhelming and suicidal thoughts were quite rampant. I did get quite a bit of counselling and, you know, of course that was the therapeutic approach. You're doing the best that you knew and forgive yourself. And I think I said that in the Darklands program.

[Adam Dudding]

Beyond the Darklands was a TV documentary series that featured Burt Potter in 2010.

[Barry]

One of my daughters heard that and it's like that didn't go down well, but that had to be my survival strategy to start with.

[Adam Dudding]

It feels like there's no real alternative.

[Barry]

I mean, you gotta, you gotta start at that point and then for me there's the forgiveness, but it's still empty words. I mean, it's real inside, it has to be, but also redemption. And so then, okay, what can I do to put that right? And so that was a real driver. You can't put it right, but I mean, do the best that you can. So that was, yeah, closing Centrepoint and the trust and all of that.

[Adam Dudding]

Yeah, Closing down Centrepoint and the Trust and all of that. So once Barry had left, remember, she'd embarked on that mission to get the word out about Centrepoint and make sure everything was done to keep Potter in prison and protect the community's children. She wrote to anyone who'd listened. Local MPs, government officials.

[Barry]

I started to get politically involved.

[Adam Dudding]

The parole board saying, hey, these people

[Barry]

shouldn't be coming back.

[Adam Dudding]

And yet those convicted of child sex offences kept being released back to Centrepoint.

[Barry]

And this is a bit weird.

[Adam Dudding]

But then she heard that voice, an

[Barry]

auditory voice, go, you close it down.

[Adam Dudding]

Barry knew the only way to stop any more abuse at Centrepoint was to shut it down. And from that point on, it was up to her to do it.

[Henry]

Instead of trying to look up for reasons why you should do something, why not? And then go and do the things you'd like to do.

[Adam Dudding]

So how to take on this mission impossible? You go after Centrepoint the way the US treasury went after Al Capone.

[Barry]

Follow the money.

[Adam Dudding]

You follow the money. Yes. People constantly referred to Centpoint as a sex commune, but it was more than that. It was also a huge chunk of prime suburban real estate that had been bought with the collective millions of its members over the years, and it was still worth a bomb. Barry says that for Potter, money was always at the heart of things.

[Barry]

He would say, you know, I've got nothing, I own nothing. But he was absolutely in control of the money and the millions and wanting a chain of community that he was in charge of and buying the farm and expansion, expansion, expansion.

[Adam Dudding]

Remember, way back at the beginning, Centrepoint established itself as a trust, which is basically a legal entity that owns all the assets of an organisation. A group of trustees are supposed to control it. And for Centrepoint, Barry was one of the early trustees. Many of the other pioneers had been too. Keith, the former GP and missionary, had even been chairman at one point. Curiously, though, Potter was never a trustee in the trust deed. He was instead named as Centrepoint's spiritual leader. But there's no getting around the fact that he controlled everything that went on.

[Barry]

Yes, yes.

[Adam Dudding]

And over the years, as people joined Centrepoint, remember, they had to hand over all their assets. Barry herself put in $6,000. That's about $60,000 in today's money. It was from the breakup of her first marriage.

[Barry]

It must have been a cheque in those days.

[Adam Dudding]

So everyone chipped in. Those were the rules. Well, nearly everyone. Did Bert put anything in?

[Barry]

No. No, he didn't.

[Adam Dudding]

It later turned out Potter had given about $6,000 to his ex wife. Around the time everyone was meant to be handing over all their worldly wealth.

[Barry]

Other people, if they did that, they did that secretly because that wasn't permitted.

[Adam Dudding]

And later it turned out he had even more.

[Barry]

Stashed away $4,000 in a bank account in America.

[Adam Dudding]

Anyway, Barry thinks, hmm, the trust has got all this money and assets which came from people who've left Centrepoint, people who are vulnerable, people who are taken advantage of. Surely they could get it back, suck the money out of the place and it would die. So if you were going to kill this beast, the heart was the trust.

[Barry]

That's how it was in my mind.

[Adam Dudding]

So she and a friend visit a professor at the Auckland University Law School to see what he thinks.

[Barry]

And then the opinion came back and it was very clear, no, you put money into a charitable trust, you can't get it back. You can't go, I put my $10 into the red Cross, now I want it back. You just can't. And so he just said there wasn't a legal leg to stand on for getting our money back.

[Adam Dudding]

Besides, no one had any receipts, so

[Barry]

that sort of went flat.

[Adam Dudding]

But Barry is nothing if not tenacious. She goes to see a senior politician. He's a bit sceptical and tells her he thinks there's nothing you could do. But as she leaves, he says, look,

[Barry]

if you're really serious about this, contact the Crown Law Office.

[Adam Dudding]

Crown Law, that's the agency which represents the government from a legal perspective. So Barry gets in touch with them and they say, look, it's our job to protect trusts.

[Barry]

We've never closed a trust down in New Zealand, so you're wasting your time.

[Adam Dudding]

But Barry has as much time as she has tenacity. I mean, she's already given Centrepoint so much of her life, why not persevere? So she keeps on at Crown Law and eventually they say, well, if you

[Barry]

can get six affidavits about criminal activity, we might look into it.

[Adam Dudding]

Of course, Barry was up for that.

[Barry]

So I got those six affidavits from significant people.

[Adam Dudding]

Crown Law reads them and goes, okay,

[Barry]

we'll look into this, but you need to get yourself a lawyer.

[Adam Dudding]

Barry is at last making progress, but it's tough going. And then she gets some luck through the ex Centrepoint community and friends of friends. They find a lawyer who's just come back to New Zealand and he's interested because it's such an unusual case. Barry knows straight away that this guy Bruce Gray, is perfect.

[Barry]

If I believed in God, I'd say sent from God.

[Adam Dudding]

Bruce Gray agrees that attacking the trust is not straightforward, but he has an idea.

[Barry]

He says, look, Barry, if you go for closing the trust, everything will go back to the Crown. What we have to do is close the community, but just reform the trust so that assets can be held and somehow we'll put them in good caring.

[Adam Dudding]

So things are at a crossroads. With those six affidavits in hand, the government is now considering an inquiry into the Centrepoint Trust. And meanwhile, Barry and her team of ex Centrepoint supporters, with the help of Bruce Gray. Bruce Gray, sent by God.

[Barry]

Yes, yes.

[Adam Dudding]

Have figured out you don't kill the trust, you change the trust.

[Barry]

Yes, yes, continue.

[Adam Dudding]

Well, actually, before we continue, we need to explain a few things. Of course, not everyone agreed with Barry. Not everyone wanted to tear centrepoint down. In fact, there were four different factions in play around this time.

[Barry]

There was Barry's group, all been former adults at Centrepoint.

[Adam Dudding]

In that group, there were about 50 people.

[Barry]

Then some of the children got wind of it and started challenging our group.

[Adam Dudding]

These were former children of Centrepoint, including some of those girls who'd taken cases to court. And understandably, the girls had no trust of the adults. Adults, after all, had put them in the position they were in in the first place.

[Barry]

I don't exactly know what they were imagining we were trying to do, but

[Adam Dudding]

nonetheless, Barry told Bruce Gray, we're not

[Barry]

going to be in opposition to the children. We are just not. They're forming and getting a lawyer. We've got to coordinate and be working together.

[Adam Dudding]

So that's what happened. About 40 ex children signed up to this fight, working alongside but separate to the ex adults in a kind of rebel alliance team. Let's bring this place down. But then there were two other major factions. First up, a group of people who were fighting to keep Centrepoint going in spirit, but with big reforms. And this particular group was Barbara, one of the originals.

[Barry]

I'd felt like the community was gone.

[Adam Dudding]

She and others formed the group that

[Barry]

wanted to build a new community without our charismatic leader.

[Adam Dudding]

So we're up to three groups now and then finally the other group who

[Felicity]

were totally dedicated to Bert.

[Adam Dudding]

This fourth group, which included Potter himself, were called the Old Believers. And they wanted to stick with Potter as the Centrepoint leader. In their minds, things could carry on just as they had. Thanks very much. And anyone who didn't like it could bugger off. So got that. Four groups, one made up of ex adults, another made up of ex children. These two in a sort of alliance to Bring it down. A third group who want to keep it going, but without Potter's leadership, and a fourth who want Potter to remain the guru.

[Barry]

So there were those four groups, all had lawyers and then the Crown Law had their lawyer.

[Adam Dudding]

And for a while, it's a giant standoff in parallel to this four party bun fight that was going on. Remember, Crown Law was considering an inquiry into Centrepoint. A lot of the same issues, but a totally separate process. And Barry was pushing hard for that too. Writing letters, organising others to gather evidence, lobbying politicians. Push, push, push.

[Barry]

You've got to do something about this. Stop resisting. And finally, they set up the inquiry, the Solicitor General's inquiry, and that was Ailsa Duffy at the head of it and to financial men.

[Adam Dudding]

So Barry has got one of the things she wanted. Elsa Duffy, a Queen's Counsel, that's a lawyer, recognised as being at the top of their game, was appointed to take a deep dive and see what was happening and what had happened under the umbrella of the Centrepoint Trust. At a few points during this podcast, we've really questioned what Barry was up to. But also, you do have to admire her. The tenacity it took to embark on this mission, to shoulder responsibility for putting some things right. Here's Ray the cop.

[Dave (finance guy)]

Look, I think she was a woman of great integrity and courage. She was torn because of her earlier involvement, but I think she did the right thing and she knew she was doing the right thing and that wasn't easy.

[Adam Dudding]

Robert, the pioneer who left early on and went to the police, he could see that even though Barry had stayed on for a very long time, she wasn't like many of the others. She saw, like me, that she couldn't change it.

[Dave (finance guy)]

She was very loyal, Barry, to everybody,

[Adam Dudding]

she was, she picking lovely, so lovely Barry. Courageous Barry, Loyal Barry. How's she gonna pull this off? She's got this all lined up, but it all still seems so hard. Luckily for her, she has a lot of people on her side. But she also has a secret weapon. Do you think anyone ever figured out that there was a secret pipeline of information?

[Barry]

Um,

[Adam Dudding]

that's right. Barry was well and truly gone from Centrepoint. But in her battle to bring the place down, she had an insider feeding her information.

[Barry]

After the break, it was the mole. And I was very protective of him for years. But now, you know,

[Henry]

To see through the garbage they sort of COVID themselves with, to be able to see through the images they carted around around.

[Adam Dudding]

The year is 2020. The outbreak centres on the city. A deadly pandemic is raging. And in Aotearoa, New Zealand cabinet meet this afternoon. Our government slams the border shut. I'm Adam Dudding.

[Eugene Bingham]

I'm Eugene Bingham. And in our new series Quarantine Nation, we are looking back at New Zealand's experience of a global catastrophe.

[Barry]

You're holding in your hand this sample and it's like this could just change New Zealand.

[Eugene Bingham]

I can recall pacing around the room thinking, we've just got to move quickly.

[Adam Dudding]

Living through Covid was deeply weird. Big surge in New Zealand. So, you know, it's terrible.

[Eugene Bingham]

So in Quarantine Nation we take a minute to figure out just what happened.

[Adam Dudding]

What were they thinking? What was the world thinking? Made with the support of NZ On Air out now. The one thing you can say about the story of John Sweden is it's complicated. Okay, I've just killed the suspense right away. Barry's mole, the insider feeding her information was John, her ex husband, the father of her youngest daughter. So while Barry is fighting to bring Centrepoint down, John's on the inside. And he's smuggling ammunition out to Barry to use against the commune he's still living in. So what sort of things?

[Barry]

Things like the preschool roster.

[Adam Dudding]

Doesn't sound like much, but this roster showed that people with convictions for child sex abuse who'd been released back to Centrepoint were now working at the community's preschool. And there was other stuff too.

[Barry]

Letters from prison, affidavits from people. You'd check the computers, 4 o' clock in the morning. It was quite a powerful file.

[Adam Dudding]

It wasn't just text documents. John also secretly taped some of Centrepoint's internal meetings. And he smuggled those tapes to Barry too, money wise.

[Dave (finance guy)]

I am a pragmatist. And I hate giving lawyers money.

[Adam Dudding]

The voice you're hearing is Dave, the finance guy. He was very firmly in the Old Believers camp.

[Dave (finance guy)]

I do feel that the trustee represents what I want. And it's no different to when I first came in. I didn't come for six months because the thing I saw in the trustee was Bert Potter has final say in matters of the paint, which was patently anything.

[Adam Dudding]

All right. The tapes don't contain any particular particularly stunning revelations, but they do show how deeply divided the community was. And for Barry and her team, division inside, represented hope outside.

[Dave (finance guy)]

I still want that. And I would like you to give me the respect of Big Armour.

[Adam Dudding]

Yeah. Okay. This music, we should explain. It's on the tape. It must have been on the cassette before John recorded over it with the meeting. We think that it's probably A little composition of John's. Guess he had a synthesiser in there. Like we said, he's complicated. So as well as being someone who dabbled in creating electronic music and in spying, John was best known for his pottery.

[Barry]

There used to be a big competition for ceramic artists and, you know, he'd been a winner.

[Adam Dudding]

You can still find his work for sale in pottery auctions. John Sweden was born in Hamburg, Germany, during World War II. Born, in fact, during a bombing raid when he was six months old, his father was captured by the Russian army and spent seven years in prison. So right from the start, life wasn't easy for young John. We know this because he wrote about it in the Centrepoint magazine and also in his religious statement to the Takapuna Council all those years ago. John moved to New Zealand when he was nine years old. He married, had two kids and had swanky jobs in advertising, including as managing director of his own agency. Then his life kind of unravelled for a while. He. He walked away from his career and his marriage fell apart. Eventually he found the craft of pottery. He met Barry, helped establish Centerpoint, was one of the number of men at the community who had a vasectomy reversal and became a father again. John wrote about the power of Bert Potter and what an influence this guru figure had been on his life. That influence, though, would eventually lead him to prison. John was one of the men charged with with child sex offences from the early days of Centrepoint. In his case, indecent assault to two girls, one aged about 12, the other 14. At first, the response from most of those accused was denial. But when John landed In court in 1992, he reacted differently. Here's Barry.

[Barry]

By the time the. What could we call it? The convictions or the charges came through, John had fully accepted his actions were harmful and not okay. And he was the first to break ranks and plead guilty. And at his first meeting with the prison psychologist, he just admitted immediately was wrong. He was hugely wrong and he was sorry for the harm done. And as he told me later, the psychologist nearly fell off a chair because it was so unusual to get that.

[Adam Dudding]

But don't just take Barry's word for it. Here's what the judge had to say when he sentenced John to 11 and a half months in prison.

[Judge]

I accept you had no intention of causing harm to either child. You went astray under the powerful influence of a misguided social experiment.

[Adam Dudding]

The judge went on to say that

[Judge]

John had shown considerable courage and leadership in taking this stand. There are others coming to trial who are denying their part in such matters. The pressure on you not to break ranks must have been quite strong.

[Adam Dudding]

So, yeah, with John, it's complicated. John Sweden died while we were making this podcast. He was 78, remember? Barry and John split up around 1987. Yet she can't entirely turn her back on that shared past.

[Barry]

One of the things I loved about John, he could be so funny. Oh, dear.

[Adam Dudding]

And in amongst the hoard of documents Barry had given us, we found evidence of that ourselves. Take the certificate he printed up and put on the Centrepoint notice board. For the Global International Environment and Humanitarian Award of notable achievement and Excellence for the advancement of universal peace and economic Prosperity.

[Barry]

Burt Potter, recipient for his dedication to fundamentalism and believing his own bullshit. Sign 30th of October, 1996. Signature. God.

[Adam Dudding]

But really, perhaps the greatest piece of satire John produced Christmas Carols was short

[Barry]

tonight in the lounge to be sung with gusto, conviction and feeling. On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me One sugar pill and a lesson Lesson in honesty on the second day of Christmas my true love gave to me One sugar pill, ten tabs of acid and a lesson in honesty in case you haven't

[Adam Dudding]

figured it out, this is the traditional carol, the Twelve Days of Christmas with special Centrepoint lyrics by John.

[Barry]

On the fourth day of Christmas my true love gave to me one sugar pill, ten tints of acid one loan from AMAC, one paper shredder, bank accounts,

[Judge]

eight prison sentences, six unsigned letters, $90,000, several trips to Thailand, three trips to

[Adam Dudding]

Holland, one Attorney General, years of suspicion, character assassination, ten wealthy lawyers, and a lesson in honesty. When Barry looks back at what. What John did, the good and the bad, she's left thinking, you know, at least he tried. He made some big mistakes, huge mistakes, and there's no getting away from the damage they caused. But then he fronted up to the court, pleaded guilty, went to prison, returned to Centrepoint, and then became Barry's mole.

[Barry]

To my mind, it does help me forgive him a lot. I know it's kind of a classic word, redemption, but it became quite an important word for me, that taking. You know, in the legal world, it's restorative justice, but, you know, it's a profound human concept when you mess up, do something to redeem what you've done. You can't go back and undo it, but do something. And so that was him doing that.

[Adam Dudding]

During this period, when you've got John running around being the spy and Barry's team and the Centrepoint Kids team outside trying to tear the walls down. It's fair to say things were getting quite tense inside the community. Sometimes there were punches thrown. Once there was an incident where someone tipped a bowl of muesli over someone else's head during an argument. That incident made the Centrepoint magazine with a poem entitled Serial Offender. Actually, it even made the real newspapers a couple of weeks later when police cited it as evidence of escalating tensions. The police then visited centrepoint and seized 10 firearms. A community member quoted in the newspaper said the guns were only used to kill cows and possums and that the police would have been better off seizing the muesli. One of the teenagers we've spoken to from the 1990s who didn't want to go on tape remembers this period as a time of division and sadness. Kids would be watching the parents and their factions fighting. One group huddled at a table over on that side, the other over on the other kids in the middle, just getting on with each other regardless and rolling their eyes. She's sad Centrepoint couldn't survive in one form or another, but she saw how entrenched people were. Those who wanted a new community versus the Potter loyalists, the old believers.

[Kim Hill]

How would you characterise the religious beliefs of Bert Potter?

[Dave (finance guy)]

Oh, very similar to the teachings of Jesus Christ. They're to love one another, love your neighbour, stop judging people, love your neighbour

[Kim Hill]

and love your neighbour's children.

[Dave (finance guy)]

Oh, well, I mean, that's a highly, highly, highly emotive statement.

[Adam Dudding]

This is Dave the finance guy being interviewed by Kim Hill on Radio New Zealand in the late 90s after he's been released from prison for child sex offences, including against a girl who was four years old.

[Kim Hill]

That's very young, Dave.

[Dave (finance guy)]

It is, it is. It is very young.

[Kim Hill]

Very young for a child to instigate sexual activity.

[Dave (finance guy)]

Well, maybe, but maybe they do. I don't know whether you've had children and seen them, but in fact, young children are sexual animals.

[Adam Dudding]

Yep. Even after serving a jail term, Dave was saying it was the child who instigated the activity. And so that was ok. Sound familiar

[Kim Hill]

on the sexuality of children, Are you continuing to put those into practice amongst the members who still adhere to Burt Potter's spiritual views?

[Dave (finance guy)]

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

[Kim Hill]

Are you still allowing 4 year old girls to allegedly instigate sexual activity with you personally?

[Dave (finance guy)]

It hasn't happened to me again and so I know that if it did happen, I mean, I don't know what. I don't know what to do. The things I got, you know, one of the Things I got convicted of was that a young girl came and sat on my knee and took my hand and put it between her legs. And for that I served a year in jail. Right now that I don't know what I'd do if the same thing happened. It actually wasn't a big deal for me.

[Adam Dudding]

By the time this interview rolled out over the airwaves, Dave the finance guy was one of the few originals left at Centrepoint. Joining him in the pro Potter faction were Henry and Richard, two of those who had arrived in the early days and ended up going to jail. Also Ulrich the chemical engineer, another who'd spent time in jail for drugs and sex offences. Ulrich had taken over the magazine and it's fair to say he must have been a better drug maker than editor. Barry had produced a slick Pravveda version of the magazine in her time. But under Ulrich, the magazine was clearly produced on a shoestring and felt more like a crappy cycler style newsletter, handed around troops in the trenches. Meanwhile, Potter was still in jail and becoming more and more isolated and lonely, almost deranged. His wife Margaret had left him not long after the big court case and divorced him soon after. From his prison cell he wrote a series of essays called Living and Loving, which suffice to say spouted much of the same old waffle he'd been spouting for years, including enthusiastic endorsement of sexual contact between adult and children. In his letters to the community he goes on and on about one of the ex members saying he must have worked in cahoots with the girls who ended up giving evidence against him. He wails that people have betrayed him, that they've stolen from the community, told lies and actually some of them hypocritically have engaged in underage sex themselves. By 1998, Potter has had a couple of heart attacks, is is suffering from arthritis in his shoulder and has a gap in his top teeth where an inmate punched him. He is nearing the end of his sentence and agitating to go back to Centrepoint. But it's a toss up as to what's looking more shaky, the aging guru or the commune he wants to reign over once more.

[Henry]

We have to accept that those principles are not captured. But he can.

[Adam Dudding]

One of the final blows to Centrepoint came from that Queen's counsel, the lawyer Ailsa Duffy, who remember, had started the

[Barry]

Solicitor General's inquiry that Barry had agitated for.

[Adam Dudding]

It took a while, two years, but

[Barry]

eventually she came out with that massive two volume report.

[Adam Dudding]

It landed on Centrepoint like a bomb. Ailsa Duffy had surgically dismantled Centrepoint's overblown claims about itself, stretching all the way back to its foundation.

[Barry]

She was brilliant.

[Adam Dudding]

Well, that depended on your viewpoint. Al Sadhafi didn't seem so brilliant to the old believers like Dave the finance guy.

[Kim Hill]

He claims that the inquiry's findings constitute religious persecution. And he joins me now.

[Adam Dudding]

Here he is in that Radio New Zealand interview with Kim Hell again.

[Kim Hill]

Why do you feel religiously persecuted?

[Dave (finance guy)]

Oh, well, basically because it seems to be a campaign. I don't know that it's orchestrated, but it's happening. And the report of AR Sir Duffy and the committee of inquiry says that Bert Potter's teachings aren't religious and that he's not fit to be a spiritual leader.

[Kim Hill]

That's right.

[Adam Dudding]

So, yeah, one of the things the report did was slam the idea that Centrepoint was a legitimate religion. It also slapped down a bunch of things that were central to the commune's DNA, including the therapy. Duffy said Centrepoint's therapists might be well meaning, but they lacked qualifications, training and adherence to professional and ethical standards. Sexual relationships between counsellors and clients. The practice that Potter always bragged about.

[Henry]

The best thing you can do when they come to you for help is to give them a good, very loving, very intimate thuck.

[Adam Dudding]

All these years later, that was still going on. Sometimes the inquiry also had big problems with the morality of making vulnerable people hand over cash and worldly possessions when they joined. Ailsa Duffy wrote that for someone who arrived at the community at a particularly low point in their life and had come to depend on the commune, the choice between joining and all that entailed or leaving may have been no choice at all. And besides, the inquiry pointed out, these people had joined Centrepoint in the hope of a better, less selfish, more honest, loving lifestyle. Instead, quote, the utopian ideal never eventuated. And then there was all the money that had disappeared. $120,000 in legal bills over the trust fight. 230 grand on criminal legal fees. There was money for holidays for some members. $1.4 million was lost on that goat farm malarkey. And then things like a dodgy one million dollar transfer of money to CentrePoint from AMAC, the abortion service Centrepoint members had gained control of. In the end, the loan was registered as a mortgage against Centrepoint and became a financial millstone. If you're listening closely, you might have noticed that in John Sweden's Christmas sing along satire, one of the things he mentioned was one loan from Ammac. Anyway, it was episodes like this. That convinced El Sidafi the trust itself was dysfunctional and indeed had never operated properly. Everyone, all four factions, ended up in court arguing over this carcass, really, albeit a carcass whose assets were worth about $7 million. Barry says things dragged on until one particular no nonsense judge was appointed, Justice Cartwright.

[Barry]

And she just kind of went, this case could feed the lawyers of Auckland for decades to come. This has to come to an end.

[Adam Dudding]

This judge was Sylvia, now Dame Sylvia Cartwright, a huge figure in New Zealand law who would become the country's Governor General soon after this.

[Barry]

And she pulled us into negotiation.

[Adam Dudding]

You can imagine how it went, pulling into one room, all these people who tried to establish this loving community, but who were now at war with each other. It wasn't pretty.

[Barry]

I kind of exploded and shamed myself.

[Adam Dudding]

At one point, Dave, the finance guy, was saying that the old believers were going off to establish another community and they would need $1 million to build an ablution block. Barry couldn't help herself and yelled out,

[Barry]

I will put in $20 for five buckets and you can.

[Adam Dudding]

In the end, the old believers, including Dave Ulrich, Richard Henry, agreed to leave the property within three months if they and their children were given $49,000 each. So that's $1.4 million in total. By this time, Potter was out of prison and he took a payout like the others. They would all walk away from Centrepoint completely.

[Barry]

I'm not sure happy was the word. I don't think anyone was happy because,

[Adam Dudding]

you know, it pissed some people off that here were these people, some of them convicted, some sex offenders, men who had, in the eyes of many, caused so much damage, walking away with a stack of cash when nobody else was.

[Barry]

I copped a lot of anger from people. How dare you agree to give them any money at all? And it was hard for people to comprehend, but we had to give them something to get them to sign themselves out of the trust. So it was exhaustion, it was relief, it was, I just don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to hear anybody's anger about me. If you weren't there negotiating, don't tell me what I should have done.

[Adam Dudding]

With the old believers out of the way, Centrepoint was basically restructured out of existence. On March 29, 2000, it was over. With a story like this, there's no such thing as a happy ending. But all the same, some things were made right. The trust was renamed the New Zealand Community Growth Trust. Notice the word Centrepoint has disappeared. This new version of the trust had the task of administering the remaining assets, including the property, and supporting the ex members and children. This new trust is still going today. It means that children of Centrepoint have been able to get money for things like dental treatment and education. It paid for things like that big Massey University study into the impacts of Centrepoint on its children. It's not perfect by any stretch. People we've spoken to are angry and frustrated about the new trust. Even today. Some say they feel revictimised every time they have to ask for money from it. Others reckon the decisions about who gets a grant or not aren't always fair. In its 22 years, Centrepoint had so many people through it. So many people with different backgrounds, so many people with different experiences, so many people with different stories. And in the 20 years since the commune's collapse, they've scattered far and wide and they've had time to reflect and think about the place. You've heard a lot from people who lived there. We discovered that Centrepoint people are often really, really good at talking. But there are some people who have been, I guess you could say less enthusiastic about talking. It's not like we didn't try.

[Henry]

Henry here.

[Adam Dudding]

Hello, Henry, It's. My name is Adam Dudding. I'm a reporter with Stuff and my colleague Eugene and I are making a podcast documentary about Centrepoint.

[Henry]

Sorry, no, thanks.

[Adam Dudding]

Yeah, this is Henry, one of the guys who got sent to prison. I kind of prattle on a bit trying to convince him to chat, but

[Henry]

I thought I made it quite clear to you a couple of minutes ago that I don't want to talk to you at all.

[Adam Dudding]

Okay.

[Eugene Bingham]

Okay.

[Adam Dudding]

No, look, I just.

[Eugene Bingham]

Just.

[Adam Dudding]

I thought I'd take the chance to. To let you know who I am.

[Henry]

Yeah.

[Adam Dudding]

And why. Perhaps you could trust us to listen to what you're saying.

[Henry]

I wouldn't trust you with a barricade.

[Eugene Bingham]

Sorry.

[Dave (finance guy)]

Bye.

[Adam Dudding]

Okay, well, I. Yeah, well, if at first, etc. Are you in?

[Eugene Bingham]

Speaking.

[Adam Dudding]

Hello, Ian.

[Felicity]

Yeah.

[Adam Dudding]

My name's Adam Dunning. I'm a reporter with staff and my colleague Eugene Bingham and I are making a podcast. This is Ian, who joined in the early 80s, was chairman of the trust at one point, and yet went to jail over the drug network. So. Interested to know if you could talk to us? No. Well, thanks very much for the offer,

[Henry]

but my hope I won't do it. Right.

[Adam Dudding]

My health situation is really bad just now, and so I'm not going to get into anything else, but thanks for the offer anyway. Well, at least he Was polite.

[Henry]

The number you have called is not

[Adam Dudding]

currently active or is in. Of course, not everyone was easy to find 20 years down the track. He's a mobile number from. Hello, is this.

[Henry]

It is very fine.

[Adam Dudding]

Excellent. My name is Adam. For legal reasons, we can't name this man and we've changed his voice. He wasn't convicted of anything, but he's a guy who was at Centrepoint for a bunch of time in the 80s through the 90s.

[Henry]

That's true. I was there for a bunch of time in the 181980s, not the 1890s. Yes. But I don't want to talk to you.

[Adam Dudding]

Right.

[Henry]

I'm not going to. Sure, sure.

[Adam Dudding]

Can you tell me, just. Can you tell me why?

[Henry]

Yes. It's because I have a family

[Dave (finance guy)]

and

[Judge]

the.

[Henry]

There has not been any publicity about Centrepoint that has done my family. And that's all. I have no comment. That's all I'm going to say.

[Adam Dudding]

Wow. He's there.

[Eugene Bingham]

He's there.

[Adam Dudding]

He doesn't want to talk. No. Look, like lots of them.

[Eugene Bingham]

It's interesting, isn't it? The children want to talk, but the adults.

[Adam Dudding]

Well, also for me, I just felt a little. It's always a little bit tense doing a cold call on somebody who you think might be a hostile interviewee. You know, just like, you know, you know, blood pressure goes up a little bit. It's.

[Eugene Bingham]

It's.

[Adam Dudding]

You're ready to, you know, you. You know, you're going to push people a tiny bit past what they're comfortable with and what you're comfortable with. But actually, when he said, I don't want to talk because it's not good for my family, just for. I suddenly thought about everything we've heard over the last six months, and I thought, actually, fuck you. It's become apparent while doing this that there's a whole bunch of people for whom the silence and the lies and the. Or even even just not talking because you don't want to hurt your family.

[Eugene Bingham]

Yeah.

[Adam Dudding]

Isn't doing anybody any good. Yeah. And so just a little part of me, if I was him, I would have said the same thing.

[Henry]

Sure.

[Adam Dudding]

I'm sure no comment is a really good comment. But I also just. I got a little bit annoyed at him, actually, all of a sudden thinking, yeah, well, it's nice for you looking after yourself and your family. One of the other people we tried to speak to was Ulrich, the chemical engineer. He lives up north now on a large block of land. We found an email address for him, hoping to be able to get him to agree to an interview, but it didn't go so well. We exchanged a few emails, but he was not interested in engaging, accusing our news organisation of being biased towards the government or something. And then it went down a COVID 19 conspiracy rabbit hole. He also said he thought that we had an agenda. It's unclear what. And that in any event, society was not ready to hear the truth about Centrepoint. It's a pity Ulrich wouldn't talk to us. Yes, he went to jail for sex and drugs charges. But like we said earlier, a lot of people we've spoken to had fond memories of Ulric. He was a character who is central to the central point story. He was literally there on day one. Anyway, while we're on a roll on the phones, we thought we'd try John Potter, Burt Potter's son. Here we are. No more procrastinatory activities available. Check.

[Henry]

Hi, it's John Potter here. I'm not available right at the moment. Your best bet to get hold of.

[Adam Dudding]

But after going to voicemail and then emailing him, we got an email back. No, he didn't want to talk. We also tried John's wife, Felicity. She was the community's GP from the late 80s. She wasn't even around at the time of the early historic sex offences that John was jailed for. And there have never been any such allegations against her. Hello, Felicity. My name's Adam Dudding. I'm a reporter with Stuff.

[Felicity]

Oh, ok. Adam. Yes, I know who you are, I think.

[Adam Dudding]

Right. And it seems she already knows all about it. Word has got around. Bingham and I are making a podcast about Centerpoint.

[Felicity]

I know about this. Yes.

[Adam Dudding]

Oh, well, there you go. And so you're one of the people that we thought it would be good to talk to. So we're interested in setting up an interview with you, if that's possible.

[Felicity]

Probably not. Thank you, Adam. We've been burnt enough. We've been burnt enough. Thank you. Who did you know from the kids at CP that you went to school

[Adam Dudding]

with back in the day? Angie was one. I was in a school production with Angie and at North Cross. Who are other kids who I didn't know terribly well? Conversation kind of drifts in the way that lots of these conversations have. She's trying to suss me out and what we're up to, but in the end.

[Felicity]

Yeah, no, I mean, I never even lived there. Adam. Sure.

[Adam Dudding]

I'm actually quite interested when you say that. Cause there's the whole business of you've said that you didn't live at Centrepoint. But you were the gp, right? And you were living.

[Felicity]

Adam, I'm not prepared to have an interview. Sorry.

[Adam Dudding]

Oh, no, sure.

[Felicity]

This is sounding like an interview now and I'm not prepared. You're probably recording it and I'm not happy about that.

[Adam Dudding]

No, for sure. It was just you brought out the claim of not living there.

[Felicity]

Yeah, but I mean, I think you could talk to any member or resident of Centre Point and House. If I lived there, and they'd say, no, I didn't. So, you know, I think that's. That. That's not. That is not under dispute.

[Adam Dudding]

Let's be clear. Felicity and John lived in a caravan next to Potter's Gills Road place, the house that he retreated to up the hill from the main Centrepoint buildings. She was the GP after Keith. In the September 1990 edition of the Centrepoint magazine, after Potter was arrested the first time, Felicity wrote that while she was not a member, she was, quote, deeply committed to scentpoint and its growth.

[Felicity]

But anyway, I mean, I think we've been, you know, no matter what happens, no apology would ever be enough, quite clearly. And all I see it is just stirring up, you know, more distress.

[Adam Dudding]

Yeah, yeah. No, look, we've talked to quite a lot of Centrepoint kids and some Centrepoint adults, and I think. I don't know if they'd agree with you. There's different kinds of stirring up. And some. I think, some.

[Felicity]

I've seen quite a lot of it recently. Oh, no, no. And I've not been. Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I don't actually think that I've seen a lot of healing happen from that.

[Adam Dudding]

What would healing look like?

[Felicity]

Okay, Adam, I think that's enough. Thank you. Goodbye.

[Adam Dudding]

Thanks, Felicity. We kept trying others, but despite our efforts, it looked like we weren't going to get a lot more. That's quite weird that we weren't going to get to interview anyone who had been convicted of sex crimes against children at Centrepoint, anyone who had actually served time, anyone who could actually answer our questions about whether they were sorry for the damage caused at Centre Point or reflect on what had happened. And then one day. Hello, adam speaking. The phone rang. Hello? Oh, hello. Sorry. Hello? Hello? Can you hear me? Hello? Hello?

[Barry]

Hello?

[Adam Dudding]

Hello? That was episode 11 of the commune, a Stuff production. There is one episode to come. The Commune was researched, written and produced by Eugene Bingham and me, Adam Dudding, mixing by Andrew MacDowell at Digicake Music by Audio Network for more information about the show, head to Stuff Co nz. The Commune, The year is 2020. The outbreak centers on the city of a deadly pandemic is raging and in Aotearoa, New Zealand cabinet meet this afternoon our government slams the border shut. I'm Adam.

[Eugene Bingham]

I'm Eugene Bingham. And in our new series Quarantine Nation, we are looking back at New Zealand's experience of a global catastrophe.

[Barry]

You're holding in your hand this sample, and it's like, this could just change New Zealand.

[Eugene Bingham]

I can recall pacing around the room thinking, we've just got to move quickly.

[Adam Dudding]

Living through Covid was deeply weird Big surge in New Zealand. So, you know, it's terrible.

[Eugene Bingham]

So in Quarantine Nation, we take a minute to figure out your but just what happened?

[Adam Dudding]

What were they thinking? What was the world thinking? Made with the support of NZ on air out now.