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The Conscious Entrepreneur | Leadership, Self-Awareness & Mindset
EP 111: Honest Conversations, Compassionate Leadership, and Real Accountability with Marc Lesser
00:40:17
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- [00:00]
A
Today we're talking to Mark Lesser. He is a Zen teacher, a trainer and a CEO who has worked with organizations around the world to marry mindfulness and leadership. Today we're talking about his book Finding Clarity where he teaches us about his concept of compassionate accountability. This is about being clear and direct, but also being kind and connected. This results in strong, high performing teams, something we can all benefit more from. Let's get into it. You're listening to the Conscious Entrepreneur and I'm Sarah Lockwood. This is the only podcast completely dedicated to the well being of entrepreneurs. It's where we do the inner work to become the leaders our businesses truly need. A thriving business starts with a thriving you. Let's get into it. Mark, in your new book Finding Clarity, you talk about compassionate accountability. Could we start by having you kind of share your definition of this great concept?
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B
You know, it's interesting, the word language is so interesting because, you know, whatever word, whatever words we use bring up images and meaning and history for, for people. I think, I think for a lot of people accountability might, might sound a little harsh. Actually. I, I've been gravitating more and more toward the word alignment. Alignment. Like what does, because in some way what accountability really comes down to, I think is aligning around what does success look like?
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A
And expectation setting.
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B
Yeah, expectations, Expectation setting. Or maybe even broader than that. Vision setting. Vision setting. Right. Like, like what are we, what are we actually trying to accomplish? What does success look like and not look like? And, and in some way that sounds so obvious, but it's interesting how, how often that isn't done in relationships in general. Not in, in and out of the business world. You know, I think most, most even friendships or romantic relationships go off the rails when there is not. When there aren't those conversations and adjustments about, you know, alignment and then. Right, so that's the, that's the, that's the accountability part of the phrase. Compassionate accountability. And compassion can maybe often sound too soft for the business world. Right?
- [02:47]
A
Yes, it's a marrying of the harsh and the gentle here I'm hearing.
- [02:52]
B
That's, that's right. That's right. And it, and it is. Right, so the compassion part is the human part, this, the sensitive part, the, the caring part, the building trust part. And, and I think all, you know, all relationships, but especially I think here, here I'm using the phrase in, in relation to building healthy cultures in, within any kind of organization. Small, medium, large, for profit, non you all, there's always a culture. There's always like what Are the norms? What does it feel like? How safe is it? Is, are people working energetically? Are people working together? And to me, these two. Alignment, accountability are our ways of building energy, building a sense, right? A sense of doing things that are important, making progress, you know, things that we can measure often in the, in that realm of accountability and alignment, we can measure, we can measure financial success, we can measure, you know, how people are performing, are performing. And the, the compassion side is harder to measure but just as easy for people to feel right. We, we feel. Does it feel good to work here? Do I, do I feel good when I come into work? And, and do I, do I like working with this team either, you know, as a leader or as a member of a team? How does, how does this, you know, are, is there a sense of, of trust? Do we, you know? And, and in some way I think a lot of it comes down to care, you know, do, do I really care about the work that I'm doing and the people that I'm, that I'm working with? And yeah, so there's a certain, I think important energy in, in these two, putting these concepts in one, right? Compassionate accountability or you know, alignment with caring. However, whatever, whatever language works for you.
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A
If there's a way to have more clarity in a relationship by both being aligned around expectations and then being able to have an honest and direct and compassionate conversation around those expectations and where gaps may be or, you know, where there are things to celebrate, that's kind of the ideal thing we're working towards. Mark, why did you feel that this idea of finding clarity and compassionate accountability needed its own book?
- [05:43]
B
I think it's, it just comes up over and over and over again in, you know, in, in when I think of the, the companies that I've run and now in the companies that I get to coach or consult with. It's, it's just such a, it. It's a container that a lot can go in, you know, even like individual well being. How do you, how do you practice and think of injual? How do you bring more right. Self, self compassion and a sense of self, you know, alignment aligning, alignment aligning with my own goals, with my business goals. And yet there's a certain ring of, and also not to be, not to get too hung up or caught by the, you know, the conflict or the paradoxical nature of it, right? That, that, that, you know, and I think to make it, I think it's important that it's not about finding the midway point between like compassion and Accountability? No, it's like high compassion, high accountability. Both. How do you, how do you do both? And, and to be, to bring that to the forefront of one's awareness and to make, make adjustments as, as necessary.
- [07:19]
A
What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about finding this, this, in this duality of high compassion and high accountability? What do you think maybe gets in the way of people wanting to show up that way? Is it fear?
- [07:39]
B
Yeah, fear. Or as, as I, you know, said earlier, I think we all, we all bring our own narratives and ideas to these things. I, I, you know, I, I was once pitching a program to a big pharmaceutical company around mindfulness and emotional intelligence. And I met with the head of learning, and he, he says to me, well, we, we really are embracing mindfulness, but we're not, we're really not that interested, you know, in emotional intelligence. But what, but why don't you talk to my partner down the hall? And I go down the hall and his partner says, we really embrace emotional intelligence, but we're not so interested in mindfulness. And, and it made me realize just the power of language and the narratives. And to me, you know, like, well, what is emotional intelligence and what is mindfulness and what is leadership? And in some way, there's a tremendous amount of overlap between these three big concepts, these three big buckets. You know, we. The, the work, you know, I often call my work, you know, mindfulness based emotional intelligence. Right. An integration of these, of these things. Yeah. So. So I think it's easy to get hung up on whatever, you know, narrative and history we, we might have around this language. And, and to me, it's important to. Just to be more curious about. Okay, what, what, what are we really talking about when we talk about. Right. Compassion and, and accountability? In what way? In what way might those be, you know, useful? You know, I think of a, you know, a, A leader that I was coaching not that long ago who was a really, really strong, you know, a strong leader, but often crossed the line between, you know, when, when he thought he was inquiring about. From his team, his team was experiencing him as interrogating. Right. That there was his, his holding people accountable was not perceived as compassionate at all. In fact, the opposite. And, and it was, and it was hard, you know, as often is hard for people on the team to give him that feedback. Say that. How do you say that to your manager who can fire you or, or, you know, so there's, there's. I think that's, you know, there are, there Are there are hierarchy and power relationships in the business world that, that makes these concepts, these practices, I think, challenging, but more and more important.
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A
It's really interesting to me because I think in my own personal development, I can rel. Being perceived more harshly than I intended to be perceived in feeling that, you know, sort of this accountability was.
- [11:15]
B
You.
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A
Know, my responsibility as a manager. And the, the way that you made sure that everyone was doing what they were supposed to be doing. And I viewed it less as a way to support my team and more as a way to control or get compliance.
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B
Right.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
So, I mean, that's.
- [11:39]
A
I think I was a less mature manager at that time, but I, I think it's a common, common problem every.
- [11:48]
B
Leader, Every leader has to contend with. Even, you know, right. How do the, The. How do you give people enough space and room? Right? You want to be, you want to be spacious. You want to, you know, we all want to be treated, you know, with a sense of trust and spaciousness and, you know, not, not micro. Right? So on the one. On the one. So the shadow sides. One shadow side is micromanaging or, or kind of micromanaging or a kind of harshness. But then there's a shadow side of not being clear enough about what fact and, and how you are perceived is going to be different, you know, by different. Different people. I, I sometimes, you know, with. I've noticed in my last CEO role, there were some people on my team who, People who were on my leadership team who thought I was, you know, making decisions too quickly and not including enough people. And there were other people who thought I was too slow, that I was taking too much time and including too many people, you know, so. Or even, you know, it's funny, I, you know, it's so interesting, but how to work with people's different understandings, expectations, narratives. But to me, the, you know, the, the way to cut through it all is around, you know, being. Being as clear and vulnerable and a kind of vulnerability to, you know, to be open about, to actually even talk about these. These things.
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A
I think one of the things I've learned through this podcast and talking to so many thought leaders is the relationship between effective leadership and vulnerability and your willingness to say, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. These are my goals. I may not always hit the nail on the head, but I aspire to marry these concepts. Right. I want to be clear, I want to be supportive, I want to be empathetic and compassionate, and I want to take action to make sure we are all doing the things that we've agreed we are going to do together. And I think that's really the main concept that you're sharing in this book is how do we get closer to that? And you have some advice for leaders, right? So certainly this, this notion of setting the tone with your team and expressing your desire to accomplish this maybe is a great first start. What, what comes after, what comes after that conversation?
- [14:40]
B
Then I think it's ongoing conversations and again it's how to build enough trust that people can, that you can talk more openly about these things. And this was one of the findings of this famous study that Google did, called Google Aristotle, in which they wanted to know, right what, what was it that separated great teams? And, and they really, and it's interesting how I, I applaud the, their approach was very data driven and, and trying to really put aside preconceptions and do long term study and data collection. And, and they were surprised, Google was surprised at this is the, where, where I think the phrase, you know, psychological safety first really emerged was because that was, that was their finding. The number one thing that separated really, really high performing, measurably high performing teams was that people felt safe. And then, well, how, how did that happen? What are the practices? And it was the ability to admit mistakes, the ability to be more real, to be more human, be, you know, to create more trust.
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A
In the Google study, when they were talking about psychological safety and the teams that were the highest performers having high perception of their psychological safety, did they have any conclusions about what the leaders were doing in practice that was creating more of that atmosphere?
- [16:26]
B
Yes, I mean, I think it was, you know, admitting mistakes, admitting, you know, again, a kind of different, different forms of vulnerability. Leaders, right. They were more, more, more real and creating an atmosphere where people felt that they could express their doubts and ask, ask questions, not, not be cons, you know, not be concerned about appearing as, you know, as incompetent or, you know, we're, I think this is, again, this is the, you know, I, I sometimes call it the dirty little secret of the business world is that we're all human. And, and not only are we all human, but we, we, we all have very tender hearts really and we all have, you know, our, our identities of, you know, am I competent, am I a good person, am I lovable? You know. Yeah. And, and we're, you know, and in some way we are, you know, we're, we're hardwired to scan for threats. Right, right. From an evolutionary perspective, you know, we We've evolved to need to stay alive. And, and how do you stay alive? Well, you're looking for, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, fear and scanning for threats are valuable and, and important. You know, and, and, and there may be important as someone growing a business. Right. Looking for threats, being aware of the competition and all of that is useful and important, but it, but it needs to be, I think, tempered by an awareness of that we're also hardwired for compassion and connection and care. I think it's shining the light. It's shining the light on fears and doubts and scanning for threats and shining the light on uncompassion and trust as well, and bringing it all, bringing it in as healthy as a way of creating healthier relationships and cultures.
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A
And I think the reason that we're talking about this today in this podcast is because our listeners value the humanity of business and we are trying to do things differently than maybe the norm that exists today. But the reality is the reason that businesses like Google study these things and in fact, you were a teacher of mindfulness at Google and did some really interesting work at Google. Part of the reason they studied this and worked so hard on it is because it does impact business results. It creates better business outcomes. And so if you're looking for a reason beyond just the humanity of, you know, being a conscious leader, this is also good for the bottom line and it's, it's useful.
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B
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, many, many companies get the, there's a lot of evidence and studies of the relationship between, you know, emotional intelligence and business success. Right, right. The emotional intelligence are, are a set of competencies. You know, things like communication skills, things like, you know, self awareness, things like how we, how we work with difficult, how we work with anger and difficult emotions. Those, you know, if we're not, if we're not competent in those things, it's going to be hard to be successful. There's, there's, there's a lot of correlation between emotional intelligence and, and business success. And more recently, well, how do you actually move the needle on these emotional intelligence competencies? Well, things like psychological safety, vulnerability, mindfulness and meditation are all ways of enabling people to build those emotional intelligence skills and competencies.
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A
And you have a workbook that accompanies your book Finding Clarity, that talks about seven particularly important practices that help create more clarity. I'd love for you to share, if you would, a little bit about those practices. And I know we can't, we don't have time to go into great depth about each one. But maybe you could walk us through those.
- [21:39]
B
Sure. Well, it's interesting. I like something about seven. You know, the seven habits of Effective People was a, you know, still a great, a great book. I wrote a book called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader. It was kind of an accident that this, this turned out to be 7. 7 practices.
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A
But an auspicious number for you, maybe.
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B
These, these seven practices are be furious, drop the story, listen for understanding, mind the gaps, cultivate a clear vision, turn breakdowns into breakthroughs. And the seventh is don't wait. And I think in some way, you know, we've been maybe touching on, you know, especially, maybe especially drop the story. Drop this, Drop the story is a lot about, you know, the ideas we have about compassion or accountability and, and even just, I think, even just realizing that we can't help it, but we, we see through, we see ourselves and the world through story, through narrative, through narrative. And that we can. How do we, how do we bring awareness to our, you know, maybe habit energy, the stories that maybe restrict us or constrict us, the stories that get in the way. And, and I think a good part of leadership is, is, you know, and this is the practice of, you know, cultivating a clear vision, right? Which is how to help people, support people, to rally around the story of success, the story of meeting the needs of our customers and growing our company. And I think of, you know, there's the above the line story about our financial goals and what we're wanting to accomplish and the below the line vision of how, what's the culture we want to create, right? How, how are we working? How are we working together? What, what, what are the norms of, of that. So, yeah, there's tremendous, I think there's so much in, in any of these seven practices. Right. You know, I think, you know, in today's world, man, there's a tremendous amount of. We're living at a time of great uncertainty and change. It's easy to wake up and read the newspaper and be furious. So like the first practice, right? Be curious, not furious, right? Yeah. Important and easier said than done, right?
- [24:36]
A
Oh, all of this is, you know, simple ideas but not easy to execute, right?
- [24:45]
B
Yeah.
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A
Turning breakdowns into breakthroughs is a curious one of these practices. Could you talk about that?
- [24:51]
B
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting even, you know, I mentioned earlier in our conversation the example of the leader who had a way of interrogating people and didn't realize it and, and, and was a lot of people, you know, people Wanted. He didn't realize, you know, the fact that people didn't want to be on his team and, and the fact that he wasn't being promoted to. And a lot of it had to do with his lack of, so there was a breakdown there of a lack of awareness on his part, behavior that he was engaged in that was kind of pretty toxic. And, and once we shed light onto that and he got it and, and realized, oh, I, I need, you know, he, he didn't realize how he was being perceived. And, and that led to a breakthrough where he kind of was able to make some shifts and be, you know, you know, still aligning around his. It's, it's okay to have high expectations, but how do you have high expectations and use that as a way of connecting and building trust and not beating people over the head and making them feel like crap because they're, you know, they're, they're somehow putting them on the spot in, in a way that makes them feel incompetent. Right. So for. He realized his own breakthrough was that he had this thing about competence and incompetence and, and he was always beating himself up constantly about, you know, like this idea that he might be seen as incompetent was causing him to run an awful lot of unnecessary stress and anxiety. And I think a lot of, a lot of us do that. I, you know, I do that at times. Right. I'll notice, I'll notice my own fears around, oh, am I, am I competent enough, you know, as, as a coach, as a. Whatever, whatever it is. And, and those are, you know, it's not, it's not that it's, it's, it can be healthy when those come up in ways that are supportive and bringing more, more awareness and light to how, how we're working and not, you know, a lot of leaders have this, I think, almost unconscious belief that they have to be hard on yourself in order to get things done and hard on the team.
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A
Right?
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B
Yeah. So an interesting experiment that I often suggest is, you know, for the next week, try being kind to yourself. Just try it and see are you getting less done the same amount or more, you know, and, and it's often quite a breakthrough of seeing, oh, you can. Having high, you can have high expectations and be kind to yourself, both. You don't have to be, you don't have to be hard on yourself and hard on others.
- [28:10]
A
It's interesting. We. Our episode of the podcast that I recently recorded was about self compassion and self talk. And it's a really Interesting dovetail into this conversation because this idea of being more compassionate even in the face of having high expectations is so pervasive and impactful, both internally facing as well as with our teams. And I think if you're a, a leader or a people manager, culture creator, and you're interested in kind of becoming more aware of how you're showing up or the culture that exists in your company, what advice would you give for somebody who's saying, like, I'm, I'm listening to this podcast and I'm recognizing that this is maybe a growth area for myself or other managers within my organization? You know, how can they put this, this new awareness to work and maybe use this book, use the workbook to make some changes? Where would they start?
- [29:21]
B
Well, I think these days working with a coach can be great or you know, even just experiment with having some, some conversations. Like ongoing conversations I like to have with people I work with is, you know, what can I do better to help our team be more effective like you. You could actually have. Have those conversations with, with people. Possibly you could try that. This is where, you know, again, my own, My own bias and my own experience is having a meditation practice, having a practice where you can become more, more familiar with your own self, talk your own creating. Creating a little more space in, you know, your own stories and narrative can be, can be helpful. Yeah. You know, this is. I'm. I'm also part of a, A few different groups. Like I'm in. I'm in a group that started many, many years ago back when I was CEO of my last company. A group of CEOs that's kind of a. Almost like a feedback group where we're giving each other. Where I can present, I can present issues and challenges that I'm having and get feedback from my peers. So some kind of peer, peer circle, some kind of community. Yeah. Journal writing. You know, actually, you know, a tried and true PR. Many, many, you know, many, many CEOs very committed to, you know, the, the artist's way of the. The morning, morning daily writing practice can be. Yeah, I think it's, it's all the different forms I think of self awareness and, and getting feedback and community building.
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A
Well, I think it, what I am hearing you say is, you know, starting with just, even the curio. What is going on in my own mind? What am I saying to myself? What stories am I telling?
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B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
I mean, I feel so much starts there, right?
- [31:44]
B
Yeah, I feel like I learned so much from. I spent several years working in a Zen Monastery kitchen, you know, where very high pressure, high expectations. This is. We were, you know, during the summer, this Zen monastery turned into a conference center. So we were making gourmet vegetarian meals for, you know, 80 or 90 people. Three meal, three meals a day and, you know, 15 people working together, you know, in a hot summer kitchen with knives in our hands, with high, very high expectations. And. And it was one of the most beautiful, satisfying experiences about seeing that, working together and, and this, this strange combination of high expectations producing great, great outcomes, you know, three times a day and working hard, and yet there was such a sense of love and practice and connection in it. And it was like, wow. Why? Why? Maybe there's a way to bring that. The spirit of that kind of working together into other. Other workplaces. And, and yeah, that's been. That continues to be my, you know, that's my, My life's work. And I feel like it's. If we're going to change the world in, in, you know, our. Whether it's our. Our. Our families, our communities, our businesses or. And beyond, it's. Yeah. Creating a sense of, you know, again, maybe it's a compassionate accountability, you know, real, real deep. Real deep trust and connection and freedom along with the energy of getting stuff done. Getting good stuff done.
- [33:54]
A
What a beautiful way of sharing that story. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm wondering if maybe there's a shift on prioritization that people who value this, this goal that you've shared, and I do too, is to think about maybe making it equally important that it feels good and that is as important as that we accomplish a high objective.
- [34:32]
B
Well, I think we've kind of said it in a few different ways. You know, we accomplish more. And we accomplish more of the things that really matter when we care, when we're. When we're fully, you know, when we're fully aligned and. And committed and caring and, you know, and a group of people working together who care. You know, this is, you know, again, I think of, you know, the civil rights movement or, or the movements that. That and the movements that are needed, you know, around climate change and sustainability and women's rights.
- [35:19]
A
Like, man, so many important issues.
- [35:21]
B
Yes, there's a lot of big issues. But, you know, and then, but. But on the ground, in, in whatever. Whatever business, whether you're running a business or, or on a team. Yeah. The sense of bringing in more a sense of joy and humanity and compassion while you're getting stuff done as. And that it. And to see that it's not. It's it doesn't take away from getting stuff done. It it will ample. It will amplify whatever, whatever you're trying to accomplish.
- [35:59]
A
What a. What an impactful shift. Could you share maybe one daily habit that you think a culture creator, a leader, an entrepreneur could introduce into their own practice that would help move them towards this?
- [36:21]
B
Sure. You know, and an assignment I gave to a leader I was working with yesterday was these are I think of these as maybe four practices for developing clear thinking. And one is to ask am I sure? Am I sure about whatever story I'm telling? Am I sure? The second practice is to ask what am I actually doing? What? Just to be curious, what am I doing? What. What am I doing? Often when there's any conflict, we're looking at what are other people doing? But what. What am I doing? The third practice is hello Habit Energy. Like to be aware of my habits, my patterns that are maybe not serving me to bring awareness to that. So I, I like it's a. This language comes from the Zen, Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. He recommends the practice hello Habit Energy. It gives a little bit of humor to it. And the fourth practice is to the practice of love, to remember that love has a place in our work and in our lives and all of our relationships. So these kind of four simple daily practices around developing maybe clearer thinking.
- [38:01]
A
Thank you. If people are interested in your book and in learning more about you and maybe even, you know, actively learning more about coaching their teams or coaching themselves through this way of thinking, could you share some resources that you have to offer about that?
- [38:19]
B
Yeah, I have a lot, a lot of. About me. My website is marklesser.net M A R C L-S-S-E-R.net I've written five books. Finding Clarity is my fifth book. Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader is my, my fourth. Yeah, come check. Check it out.
- [38:43]
A
There is a lot there. There are some great resources here and I really appreciate this conversation and encouragement. Again, this is, this is something that we as you know, mindful humans and conscious leaders value and a reminder to shift our priorities if they're falling out of alignment. I think this is a great, a great reminder. So thank you, Mark, for the conversation today. Very valuable.
- [39:19]
B
Thanks, Sarah. And maybe I'll, you know, I'm, I'm a quote collector. And the quote that is reverberating for me today is from the, the, the teacher Cho Yam Chungpa, who says the bad news is that life is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. The good news is there's no ground, so I think I'm turning that. It's, I think, a way of working with uncertainty, which we all could use some more help with, I think.
- [39:57]
A
Beautiful. Mark, thank you so much.
- [40:00]
B
Thanks, Sarah.
- [40:02]
A
Thanks for listening to the conscious entrepreneur. Every episode here is meant to sharpen how you lead and how you live. If something landed for you, please share it. Founder to founder. I'll meet you here next week.