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The Conscious Entrepreneur | Leadership, Self-Awareness & Mindset
EP 113: The Secret to Loving Your Business - Even When It’s Driving You Crazy
00:40:32
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- [00:00]
A
Today on the podcast, we're talking with business mindset coach, Debbie King. She's written an amazing book called Loving youg Rethinking youg Relationship with your Company and Making it Work for your. And we are talking today about applying mindset tools that are based on cognitive psychology that transform your relationship with the business while you scale it. It's a fascinating conversation. We talk about some really powerful ideas and I can't wait to share it with you. Let's get into it. You're listening to the Conscious Entrepreneur and I'm Sarah Lockwood. This is the only podcast completely dedicated to the well being of entrepreneurs. It's where we do the inner work to become the leaders our businesses truly need. A thriving business starts with a thriving you. Let's get into it. Debbie, I'm so excited to talk with you today about your incredible book, Loving your Business. This is one that I personally have referred to over the years and have learned so much from it. You know, the core learning that you share in your book really is about the transformation of the inner world that impacts the results that you enjoy in your company, in the outer world that other people can judge. But it really all starts, you know, as an interior job.
- [01:25]
B
Yes, it is. It's an inside job. And that's why I think consciousness is so important. And I love your mission. You know, the conscious entrepreneur, you can't fix what you're not aware of. Okay? So right away you must be conscious in order to make a change, right? So what, what I like to do is to teach people and I, I'd like to go over this on the, on the session here with you all is your audience. Is this, this tool, okay, that it's sort of a, a way to look at all of the factors in your life and your business and make sense of them so that you understand how the inner world is creating the outer results. And that tool is called the model.
- [02:17]
A
Tell us about the model. What are the components of the model?
- [02:21]
B
Okay, so the model breaks everything in the known universe into five components. That really simplifies things dramatically right there. There's the circumstances, which are all the things that happen, okay? People, events, things that we can't control. They are all neutral. So a circumstance is not my employee stole my client. The circumstance is employee went to work at another place or something. Do you know what I mean? There's a difference between how we think about something and what actually happened. So a circumstance is always a fact.
- [03:11]
A
Always a fact, right? And so, so many of the times when we Think about this model that you've outlined, and you do it very elegantly in your book. We start by understanding a piece of data, a fact, and that is the circumstance, and the fact is objectively true, no matter who is looking at the fact. Right?
- [03:32]
B
Yes. I like to say, would everyone in the planet be able to see it as a fact? Most of the time, if you think about it, that isn't going to be the case because so someone is going to, even if it's the person that's doing the thing that you think is wrong, is going to think that that thing is not a fact. Do you understand? So a fact is something that is irrefutable and could be proven, say, in the court of law.
- [04:02]
A
Totally. So we have the circumstance, and then the really interesting next step of the circumstance is the thought. Right? Right.
- [04:13]
B
So the thought is so different from the story. And the challenge is that the brain has been designed to make meaning. So its job is to make meaning out of circumstances. And the way it does that is through the lens of our beliefs. You know, what we believe is true affects how we see something, how we perceive it, and that affects how we interpret it. So we have thoughts all day long. Like, I think I heard there's 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day that we have on average. And 80% of them are usually versions of the same thoughts we've had before. So it's kind of sad. But the key thing about thoughts is that they're happening automatically, without conscious awareness. But these thoughts are so critical because they shape your experience. Experience. So the thought, I'm never going to make it, or my employees don't care, or my customers are trying to take advantage of me. These thoughts are not facts. They are optional interpretations that make us feel bad. And when we feel bad, that's a problem.
- [05:28]
A
Right. Because it's our thoughts that influence how we feel. Right. So you have the circumstance, which is a fact. There's the thoughts, which are our own interpretation or flavor of that circumstance, which just creates this feeling. And the feeling is all of the energy, Right? That's what you talk about in your book.
- [05:49]
B
Yes. Feeling is the energy, and energy is everything. Sarah. The universe is made of energy. We are all vibrating. You know, this table, me, you, the plants, everything is vibrating. It's energy. So the way we feel is. Is our energy inside our body. And so this matters so much more than we realize. People think in business, I mean, most of the time that feelings are, like, weak or wimpy or something that you don't want to include in business. But feelings are everything. It's the energy that drives results. I like to say feelings are the fuel for, for your actions.
- [06:34]
A
Right. Because the actions are the next step in this model. So what we're feeling is influencing the choices that we make and the actions we actually take.
- [06:48]
B
Yes. Or don't take.
- [06:49]
A
Or don't take. Right.
- [06:50]
B
Because if you're, if you're feeling doubt, if you're feeling fear, if you're feeling feelings that are negative, that are coming from a thought, then you're not going to do the thing, you're not going to take the risk, you know, or if you're feeling frustrated, you're going to snap at somebody or you're going to try to escape. Right. There's very predictable patterns that we follow.
- [07:16]
A
Right. And then what we do has consequences. Of course.
- [07:20]
B
Yes, it's exactly right. And not just what we do, but how we feel when we do it. Have you ever done something that somebody wanted you to do but you didn't want to do it? Like how you feel while you're doing it affects the quality of the result. So you might still get a result, but it comes with collateral damage. Like the person isn't very happy that you did this thing for them, you know, even though you did it because they could tell that you didn't want to do it. You know what I mean?
- [07:56]
A
Totally. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So this model, this circumstance, thought, feelings, actions, results. And again, this is something in your book that you go into great depth about. But this thing is called the model, right? And there's a model, many models that we, as entrepreneurs or humans, everyone, this is, this is just truth, right? This is, this is true no matter who you are. And this is how thoughts and feelings work. We have these default models that we run all the time. And one of the things that you talk about when you're thinking about the relationship you have with your business is about how you have this default model that might be leading you to that resentful place that you described for yourself. But with a different set of interpretations of circumstances and different thoughts, you can change the relationship that you have with your business. Could you talk about that?
- [09:07]
B
I just love that you have so understood this concept because sometimes people will think, well, of course I know that, you know, my thoughts affect my experience, but I'm not sure that we're really conscious on a day to day basis of how this is actually true. And so there's four main areas in your business where you have thoughts and feelings that affect the outcome and it's your relationship with your business that has to do with your relationship with yourself, your relationship with your team, your relationship with your customers, and your relationship to your solutions, whatever it is you provide. So the thoughts and feelings and actions in each of those three areas defines how you. Your whole relationship with your business. So if you're thinking no one does it right, like this was a common thing, I thought, because I was, you know, tended towards perfectionism, and we did complicated work that was in the beginning, pretty customized. So it was easy for my employees to make mistakes. But instead of recognizing all of that, I thought no one does it right, you know, and so when you think no one does it right, then you feel frustrated, you know, and then what you do is you take it over and you try to do it yourself or you over manage them and criticize everything they do. And you just. You can't really grow a business like that. The people who stay in that environment are not going to be your best people, because that's not a really healthy dynamic, you know, so that's like your relationship with your team and then your relationship with yourself, the way you think, feel, and treat yourself. You had a recent episode on the Inner Critic. Like, we are so negative about ourselves, doubting ourselves all the time, thinking we're not doing it right. These things are not innocuous. They actually affect the quality of our relationship with the business. And it's the same with your customers, if you're thinking, or your clients if you're thinking, you know, they're taking advantage of me, or they don't really care, or they're just looking for the, the, the cheapest price or whatever thought you might be thinking. And if it. It creates a separation is what happens, Sarah. It augments this feeling of separation between us and others, which is not real. I mean, everything is connected in the universe. But when we're thinking these negative thoughts about our customers, our team, or ourselves, it seems like we're all separate, and that affects the quality of the results that we get.
- [12:03]
A
Well, and I think that, you know, it's very easy for people to talk about being conscious of what you're thinking. And there must be 50% of the episodes of this podcast. There's some conversation around being aware of what you're thinking. But from my experience and my point of view, it's quite difficult to be conscious of what you're thinking and to do it regularly, meaning many, many times a day, let alone, you know, every once in a while. And I actually believe that this model that you talk about is. Is one of the best possible ways to actually have a structure for how to become more aware of what you're thinking. And then what's really powerful, once you even can just get it down right. Like, it's not the easiest thing in the world to write a circumstance that everyone would agree is true. And it's not always easy to really understand what are you thinking about that circumstance and to get, you know, because you might have a hundred thoughts about that circumstance. So really kind of getting all of that out and figuring out what are the most important threads of what you're thinking and how that's influencing your actions, which obviously then drive your feelings and your results. But it's a choice. And this is, I think one of the coolest things, is once you're aware of what you're thinking and you talk about this again very elegantly, you. It's a choice. The default model doesn't have to be the way that you think about any of these models. So you can choose something different instead. Something that is more useful and more powerful and more in alignment with what you want to create the result that you're trying to create. And so that I would love for you to talk about that, because that is maybe an, my opinion, one of the most fundamentally powerful parts of your book.
- [14:02]
B
Well, the first thing that I recommend people start to do is to do thought downloads. The concept is that when it's inside your head, you can't see it. I mean, you just can't really see it. But if you take time and a lot of people talk about journaling, but I like to keep. When I first started doing this, I would keep, like, a little notebook right at my desk, and I would literally start writing things down like I feel. And the trigger for me, because it is true, like, if you're. If you're. If you have a very active mind, which most founders do and entrepreneurs, you're thinking all the time, so you don't realize you're thinking just like a fish in water, Right. But what you can start to do is to notice how you're feeling. Like, are you frustrated? Are you anxious? Are you feeling urgent? Are you feeling depleted? Are you feeling anxious? You know, whatever it is, once you have the model, you know that what's upstream from your feeling is your thought. So if you're going through the day and all of a sudden you're feeling tense, you're feeling, you know, a negative emotion, angry, whatever, stop right then and just whip out a pen or dictate into your phone, you know what you're thinking, and you just say, ask yourself to tell yourself the answer to what am I thinking? Because your brain will answer any question you give it. So if you say, what am I thinking? To your brain, it will tell you what you're thinking and then write it down or dictate it. And then once you can see it outside of you, you'll be like. Then the next question is, you ask yourself, well, how is that going to create the result that I want? Like, it's usually pretty clear when you look at whatever it is, you're thinking that it's something that you don't want to happen or something that is happening now that you don't want. So I would say 100% of the time, a negative emotion is a result of focusing on what you don't want. I don't know why nobody teaches us this. I mean, I've read lots of books that say versions of that, but it's that simple. If you're feeling bad, it's some version of what you don't want, right?
- [16:31]
A
It's the focusing on the negative. So if you could share that in a. In an example, it's like, what is it that you want to feel?
- [16:44]
B
Well, that's a whole very good thread, which we can circle back to, because everything we want in life actually is a feeling. So we think we want the money, the house, the body, the relationship, all these things we think we want. No, we want how we think we'll feel when we have those things. So that's a separate thing. And if you can create that feeling in advance, you can align your model so that you get the feeling that you want before you actually have the result. And that makes the process so much easier. Well, that's the secret, actually, because that's the secret to everything.
- [17:21]
A
I love that so much. And I feel like this is so. It sounds so simple, but it is so profoundly impactful if you really can do this. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this model and get into it in depth is because understanding what you're thinking and being conscientious of what you're feeling is so difficult. And people often say, well, just journal or reflect or meditate or whatever. The thing is, this is a structured way of dissecting these things. And so I've even seen people say you can write, you know, a C and then a C for the circumstance and a T for the thought and the F for the feeling, and you can literally write that down. To create a structure so you can see how they relate to one another.
- [18:17]
B
A hundred percent. That's how I look at it. Because I'm, you know, I have a data analytics background. I think of it as an algorithm. So it's a formula. And the best part about a formula is that you can plug it in at any part and move up or down. So you can use the model as a template where you're feeling bad. So you put the feeling into the feeling line, the F line. And then you can either think, what am. You can either look at what am I thinking to cause that feeling, or you can ask yourself, what am I likely to do when I feel that way? So you can move to the action based on the feeling, or you can look up at the thought. And either way, you'll generally realize that if you're feeling frustrated, the tension that that causes is going to slow your prefrontal cortex's ability to think clearly. So that's never going to lead to a good action. Like, even if you take an action that might be the right action, it won't be effective and efficient if you're feeling frustrated.
- [19:31]
A
Do you understand? It's a flavor of the action. It influences the spirit of the action. Maybe is another way of saying that, yeah, super. I think that's super powerful. And then the idea that, you know, once you understand what is happening, that's the. That's like the default model. That's your brain is just going through that rut, if you will, of this is how I always react, or this is how I always respond, or these are what my beliefs tell me I should be thinking and feeling. But if you choose something different, you can create a different. You can think about the same circumstances, and you can choose something different to get a different result.
- [20:14]
B
I mean, here's another really cool thing. I think about the model when I'm writing, when I use it, when I'm writing it linearly, right? But it's actually a circle, because whatever result you get, whatever result you get in life becomes the circumstance for your next model. So you say, you know, you had a revenue goal, and the revenue goal, you didn't hit it. That's just a circumstance. So it's not, you know, my business is never going to make it because I'm not hitting my revenue goals. No, it's like revenue 1.9 million, right? And then you, you know, or, you know, 20 million, whatever it is, I see people at all levels, and then you have a decision about what you're going to make that mean. So what your thought is about that is going to affect what you do and how you feel and what you do.
- [21:15]
A
That's so true. And this is, I think that this is just really fascinating when you think about it. Obviously, you can apply this to almost any area of your life. But when you do think about it around your business, you know, one of the things that you talk about in this book is about, you know, how your future self, you talk a little bit about future self and how that can influence, you know, the choices that you make. Could, would you speak to that a little bit?
- [21:44]
B
Yes, because what you do, this is another way to use the model. You put what you want into the result line. And you think, what actions would the person who had that result take and what feelings would they feel to take those actions and what thoughts would they have to feel that way? So if, for example, you have a goal of a, a future you that, you know, I, I mean, I see all different kinds. I mean, the business is key, but for entrepreneurs, it also overlaps with their life, you know, for sure, identity and meaning and purpose. So you, you want to have, you know, a $10 million business and great relationship with your family and freedom and feel good. So you put the results that you want into the result line. And then you think to yourself as you're filling this out, what actions does that version of me which already exists in the field see? That's why consciousness, the idea of being conscious and being aware of includes being aware of the infinite set of possibilities that already exist in the now moment. Everything is possible. We know this from quantum mechanics. Everything is in a state of a superposition. And it only collapses into the actual experience you have when you observe it, which means you interact with the field that is all around you of energy. So that means that when you have a desire for a certain, certain result in your life, then it already exists in the future. Your job is to align with it. You wouldn't have this desire if it wasn't already possible. This is the truth. And so in order to align with it, you get yourself into the place where you are that person. Because who you are being is always more powerful than what you're doing. Who you are being will drive what you do. So many times people try to do all the things, but they're not their self concept, their identity doesn't match. And the cognitive dissonance that that creates leads to a lot of unhappy results. And the key is that, right? So if you change who you are on the inside, right? How you think and feel about yourself in rel to what's possible, then what you do will naturally flow. But when it comes to using the model, start with the results that you want. The person that already has those results is you, or you wouldn't want them. Then you ask yourself, what actions did I take? Because the assumption is that you've already received it. What actions did I take to have this happen? And this is completely outside of yourself. This is one of the levels of consciousness where you lift your awareness up and look down on your life. You're not in it. You're looking at your life when you're doing this, and you're looking at your future from a place where it's already happened. And you're thinking, what did I do to create that? And how must I have felt to do that? It's always going to be some version of confident, excited, energized. I mean, these are the feelings that create reality, right? And then you think, well, what thoughts generally create those kinds of feelings for me? And you practice those thoughts until they become your new beliefs.
- [25:47]
A
I mean, this is meta. This is meta, meta, meta. But I love it so much, and I think it is so fundamentally true. And I love having a conversation with someone who puts this into action in the business world. And that's what you. That's what you do for a living, right? I mean, you're helping people to. To activate this way of thinking into their businesses.
- [26:16]
B
Well, because like the story I told you, until I did this, I was trapped in my business, right?
- [26:23]
A
Yeah, you fall out of love with your business. And it's not a new story, everybody. I mean, if you've had your business for more than a year, there have been times where you go, oh, golly, you know, it's. It's rough. And so I think figuring out that, figuring out how to control this and turn that, you know, falling out of love with your business into thinking the thoughts that are more powerful and lead to the outcomes that you want to have, which is to love your business and to create an asset that works for you, which is really the second half of your book.
- [27:00]
B
One of the ways that I think we can simplify this, that has been really powerful is to recognize that everything that frustrates you is a risk. As soon as you start looking at it like that, you can turn it into a stick scavenger hunt, right? So you want to find all the things that frustrate you because they are pointing to a risk. So if you, for example, if you're frustrated because there's not enough time. The underlying risk there is that it depends too much on you.
- [27:34]
A
Right?
- [27:35]
B
People don't see it that way. They just literally think there's not enough time. But the risk is that you're doing too much. And by there not being enough time, nobody's going to want to buy that because people don't want to buy a job. So if it requires that much time, they're not going to do it. And another one is there's too many mistakes. My team makes too many mistakes. You're frustrated, right? But that's a risk. And the reason they make those mistakes is either your business is too complicated, you sell too many things, or it's too complicated to do, or it's not systematized.
- [28:09]
A
That's it.
- [28:09]
B
I mean, it's possible you have the wrong people. But for sure, if you have the right systems and you have a simple process, then you should be able to get lots of different people to operate your system. So you see, you turn the things that frustrate you into an investigation of what is the underlying risk and then you address all the risks. Because the value of your business is directly related to, to how much risk there is. If it's risky, then it's not valuable. And it's risky if it depends on you. Cash flow is unpredictable. It relies on people. It doesn't have systems or it's not differentiated in the market. I mean, that's another thing. You want to be different so that nobody can compete with you on price. We, I see this a lot. People don't understand it's one of the most important things and how valuable your business is. If you're different, then you're unique. You, no one can actually compete on price. And you don't want to be competing on price. So.
- [29:22]
A
Right. A commodity is interchangeable and commodities come in the form of services as well. So if you have a service and anyone else could provide the same service in the same way.
- [29:36]
B
Services businesses are the easiest to start. I know that I started one, right? And most businesses are services businesses. They can be very profitable, but they're not very scalable if they rely on people. And most services businesses do. So what I had to do was to turn my services into a productized solution. And you know, it's not as hard as we think. So this is where the model comes in. You know, if you think I can't do that, it won't work for me. That doesn't apply to what we do. Our customers won't buy it like all those thoughts that naturally come up, then that's going to be your reality. But if you think, how can I? I know this can work. I got to make it simpler. I got to make it easy for me to love and then other people will love it to, to. Then you start to have a different feeling and a different energy.
- [30:32]
A
Yeah. The curiosity of how could this be different or what parts of the things that I'm thinking aren't true. I think that's kind of an interesting piece to, to pull on when you notice these things that you really truly believe, you know, challenging those through, like, could this also not be true?
- [30:51]
B
Now here's what I like to ask. Play the debater, like put yourself in the opposite position and say, is there ever a time that this isn't the case for anyone else? Like, don't think about it in terms of yourself because you've already decided it's not going to work for you. But have I ever seen anyone else do this or. You know what I mean?
- [31:13]
A
Yeah. I mean just being curious about what's possible and then even using other people's success as evidence that it is possible, I think is a great, great way of using that. What sometimes turns into jealousy or resentment, you know, you might see somebody else who has a similar business really growing.
- [31:35]
B
Or finding something such a good opportunity, isn't it? Because when you see that, you can think, ah, there's an example. That's exactly what I was looking for. They're doing it. And that means I can too. So I had to train my, myself to think that way. I remember early on as a young entrepreneur when I would drive by these multi million dollar houses in Potomac at the time that were out of my price range. And I thought, and I used to be kind of envious. Right. And I remember the time when I eventually started thinking, wow, that's so awesome because there are a lot of people that have houses like that. That means that I will too. And of course, you know, I did eventually. But if we can look at the examples not as proof that they're better than us, but that proof that it's possible for us, that's what we want to do.
- [32:29]
A
That's right. And I think having actually being very conscious, people are very resistant to thinking about negative feelings or dark feelings. Right. The jealousy feeling or the frustration feelings or the I'm not good enough feelings. And actually spending time with those can be quite useful a hundred percent because.
- [32:54]
B
You'Re feeling it anyway. So people who try to like push it down is like pushing A beach ball underwater, like, it is totally going to pop back up again right when you don't want it to. So if you're feeling a negative feeling, you want to look at it like, okay, in a gentle way. Like, be kind and gentle. Like, unfortunately, sometimes achievers like us, we can take on this idea of the model also as, like, an achievement. And then we can be really hard on ourselves for noticing what we're thinking and feeling. And that's not the point. It's just to surface the awareness and to notice what is this signal telling me? What is the signal my body is telling me? Because your feelings come from your body and noticing how you're feeling as a way to identify what you're thinking.
- [33:51]
A
Yeah. In your, in your book, one of the things you talk about is, you know, when we're talking about this, judgment really is what we're talking about right now. You talk about people's emotional reactions to data, KPIs, and you talk about drama versus data.
- [34:18]
B
Well, the number one mistake, and this is really the root of them all, is that we forget that all results are also neutral.
- [34:28]
A
Right. It's a circumstance.
- [34:31]
B
So remember how I said that a result becomes the circumstance for the next model? So if we had a goal and didn't achieve it, that result doesn't mean anything. Nothing other than data about what to do next or what not to do. So what I find that we forget to do as entrepreneurs is to be objective on how we evaluate and iterate. So we don't evaluate just like, oh, okay, so not do that, do this. Let's tweak this, do that. No, we're like, I didn't do it. Right. My team didn't do this. Those customers, like, were really hard. Right. But instead we look at the result as like, oh, okay, that's just data. And then we decide what we think about it and what we're going to think about it is what are we going to do differently, what went well, what do we not want to do, and what do we learn? So we create a structured way to evaluate results that has nothing to do with evaluating ourselves as a human or our team, even as a human. But more or less, did we get what we wanted or did we not?
- [35:47]
A
That's it. Right.
- [35:49]
B
You don't have to have drama.
- [35:50]
A
Yeah. And if you didn't get what you wanted, I think one of the big messages here is like, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It means you found whatever you tried didn't work exactly the way that you thought it would, but you did try to.
- [36:06]
B
The problem is most people give up then, you know, they either give up or they radically change. Like sometimes it's just a small thing that you need to change. So this idea, you know, back in the old days with software development, we used to do the whole systems development life cycle where you'd analyze things forever and then you'd build it and deliver it and it never was what the customer wanted. And then we moved to this agile thing and that was the thing because then you're evaluating and iterating constantly. And so that's what you want to do as an entrepreneur. You want to evaluate results and iterate.
- [36:44]
A
And it's interesting contextually of where we are in the year, because we are here in October, people are looking down the barrel for, you know, probably planning cycles are beginning to be happening. And you know, I really like this idea. It's just a little bit of a kinder system for looking at all of the results that have happened in your business or even the goals that you're setting for your business, is to think of them neutrally, as you just were saying. And then, you know, try to try to separate the data from your personal identity, from good or bad judgments that we're making so much. I think that that's really important. And I think you can actually get better results when you can be more neutral.
- [37:36]
B
Well, 100%. Because if you're having a negative feeling that's going to affect your ability to think, it's going to cloud your prefrontal cortex's ability to have access to your intellectual processing. So one thing that I do think is really important to note here is that the subconscious mind is running the show a lot of the time. And if the way that we've set things up creates pain for us and we aren't seeing how that's all happening, the idea of growing in the subconscious mind means more pain. This we could do a whole episode on. Because if you think that you're already suffering now at whatever level of results you're getting, your subconscious brain is going to keep you from trying to grow it because it thinks you'll have more pain. So this is very important. So this is why it's important to notice what you're making it mean, if you're making it mean that there's a lot of pain, or if the way that you're going about getting your results causes you not to have any sleep, to try to, you know, buffer, to not be working out, to not take time with your family all the things that we do. If you're doing that, you're actually sabotaging yourself because your brain isn't going to want you to grow.
- [39:11]
A
I mean, again, mind blown.
- [39:15]
B
So kind and gentle. Love yourself. That's why I called it loving your business. I mean, loving your business means loving yourself, your team, your customers and what you do, the solutions you provide, why.
- [39:28]
A
And the outcomes that you create in the world. Right?
- [39:30]
B
Yes, that's right.
- [39:32]
A
I love that. Well, Debbie, what a incredible book. Is there anything else that you'd like to, you know, leave us with a thought as we're going into this planning season? Any. Any sage advice?
- [39:44]
B
I think the number one thing I would say, Sarah, is that your outer reality is going to be reflecting your inner reality. So the way you think and feel inside affects what you do and what the results are on the outside. So it's a. It's a job of becoming aware, becoming conscious, and it's. It's totally within your control. That's the best news. So thank you so much for having me on. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
- [40:13]
A
What a great conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the conscious entrepreneur. Every episode here is meant to sharpen how you lead and how you live. If something landed for you, please share it. Founder to founder. I'll meet you here next week.