← The Conscious Entrepreneur | Leadership, Self-Awareness & Mindset
The Conscious Entrepreneur | Leadership, Self-Awareness & Mindset
EP 126: When the CEO Can’t Lead: Bijal Shah, Guild, and the Continuity Plan That Worked
00:41:20
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:00]
A
When Guild founder Rachel Romer suffered a serious stroke at the age of 34, she was suddenly unable to act as CEO of the company. The board had a business continuity plan in place. In that moment, it became real and the company's executive team had to step up immediately. Bejal Shah was already part of that leadership team when she got the call on Friday morning. She was on Parental Leave only 2 and a half months postpartum and still recovering from a difficult delivery. By Monday morning, she stepped into the interim CEO role, leading people who had been her peers just days earlier. What made the transition work was a strong executive team that trusted one another, put the mission of the business above individual job descriptions, and knew how to operate together under pressure. That foundation was supported by conscious leadership practices and embedded executive coaching that helped leaders stay clear, accountable and grounded as the company moved through the massive change. If you're leading a company, this conversation is a reminder that continuity and succession planning does mean thinking through the worst, even while hoping that you never need it. And when change or disruption does come, what determines whether that plan actually works is the culture beneath it, how leaders work together, whether people can speak honestly, and whether there's enough trust and self awareness to respond clearly in the moment. Let's get into it. You're listening to the Conscious Entrepreneur and I'm Sarah Lockwood. This is the only podcast completely dedicated to the well being of entrepreneurs. It's where we do the inner work to become the leaders our businesses truly need. A thriving business starts with a thriving you. Let's get into it. Thank you for being here today and I just want to first sort of set the tone a little bit and introduce our listeners to Guild. This is a company that's really transforming learning and culture and growth for employees in the United States and and beyond. Times called it one of the most influential companies of our time and Fast Companies named it one of the world's changing ideas companies. These are really incredible bits of recognition. Could you share a little bit about Guild's mission and what you're doing out in the world?
- [02:16]
B
Yeah. First of all, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today and to talk about conscious leadership. I'm a big believer in it and so thank you. GILS is on a mission to unlock opportunity for the workforce, primarily America's workforce. Though we do work abroad as well. We do that by a few different in a few different ways. The primary way that we do that is by working with employers to take over their tuition reimbursement. Programs and actually modernizing those programs and aligning them to the talent strategy and the talent pathways that they have inside their organization. We also have additional products that are focused on licensure and clinical roles and helping to fill critical talent gaps, as well as an academy product that is used to really drive behavior change in a cohorted learning format inside of organizations. And I feel very lucky that I get to work at a company that is both trying to drive a mission and trying to build a sustainable business at the same time.
- [03:20]
A
And the companies that you're working with are really substantial.
- [03:24]
B
Yeah, we work with Target, Chipotle, a lot of leading manufacturing companies inside this country, as well as many healthcare employers throughout the country.
- [03:35]
A
That's wonderful. And your path to becoming the CEO is really part of the conversation today. It was kind of an unusual step into the interim CEO and then CEO role. Could you take us back to that time and maybe give us a brief overview of what happened?
- [03:54]
B
Yeah. Unexpected is probably the best way to summarize what happened. So I actually was out on parental leave. I had been two and a half months postpartum and was out on leave with my second child. And I got a phone call on a Friday morning from one of Rachel's relatives and family members telling me that Rachel had gone to the hospital and that I needed to call the board. I had no additional information on what had happened or what her circumstance was, but it was a moment of needing to step into action and kind of figure out what the right next steps were.
- [04:40]
A
It's been said that one of the first things Rachel said is somebody call vigil.
- [04:47]
B
Yeah, that's the story I've heard too. And it's. Yeah, I think it is.
- [04:53]
A
It's.
- [04:54]
B
It's complicated, I think for a few reasons. One, I was out on parental leave and so I wasn't expecting to get a call on a Friday morning. I was going to PT three times a week because I had had a pretty rough delivery and I hadn't quite figured out things that need to happen as it relates to just managing my own kind of well being while also trying to take care of a newborn. And so there's a lot of stuff going on in my own life. And so to get that phone call, I think I'll just talk a little bit about the executive team and kind of how they embraced things. I think it starts with we have. We. Rachel did a fantastic job of building an executive team that was very focused on the mission of Guild and less so on everybody's kind of territory. And rights. And I think that's really hard to do and find. You have to find a special type of individual who's really, really believes in kind of the greater good and the role that they can play in the greater good versus being so focused on what their specific job is. In that role. We also have the luxury of building a company where the mission is so critical to democracy, to building and living the American dream, that it's easy, I think, in some ways for us to say, how do you put that mission first and yourself second? And that's kind of how this team got built. It's how the team continues to be built. And so when I walked in on Monday morning, after a weekend of conversations and trying to figure out who will watch my child on Monday morning, where will I pump, how will I make sure that I'm getting what I need, that the team is getting what they need, and that I get the context I need to step back in and kind of rally the company On Monday morning, I could not be more grateful for the people that were around the table. Not one person questioned me standing up and taking charge. Not the board, not our executive team. I think that part of what was a happy accident, I think at Guild, and I think it's a lesson for others, is that I had worked in so many different parts of the business. When you're growing, you just wear multiple hats. Things are changing. We're hiring a cfo, so there is no cfo, so let's play acting CFO until we get a cfo. We're trying to hire a chief product and technology officer. There is no product leader, so how do I play that role until there is a product leader in seat? I just had so many experiences around the business leading and working on different teams, that my command, my underlying command of the business and kind of how the business works was so strong that I think it was easy for me to step in, even if it was going to be in an interim capacity. I think the second thing that really helped is I wanted a right answer for the business, and I wasn't sure if I was the right answer for the business. And so it wasn't like I was clawing for, I must be the CEO or I need to be the CEO. I was very happy with the role I was playing before. If you had asked me if I wanted to be the CEO of Guild, I would have said no. It's like an honest answer to that question. And it wasn't because of a lack of confidence in my ability. It's That I liked playing the supporting actress role. That felt very comfortable and something I could do. And so it didn't feel like I needed to buy for something else. And so I think that also made it easier because we could have an honest. I had an honest conversation with the executive team. Is there someone better suited to run this company coming out of the interim than me? I could also have honest conversation with a board. Is there somebody better suited to run this company coming out of this transition than me? And so I think that helped for me to figure out where my blind spots were, for people to feel open to telling me what they were worried about if I were to take over in a full time capacity and also gave me the space to figure out do I want to do this job, what sacrifices will I have to make and what am I signing up for and how do I make this decision with my husband, my partner in crime, and do it in a way that is supportive also of something that's probably my number one priority, which is my family.
- [09:46]
A
Yeah. Wow. I mean, just. And you almost. This was almost like a two phase decision because there was the interim post, which it seems like you very seamlessly nodded your head and said, yes, I can stand up to this. And how long was that interim role?
- [10:00]
B
It was about five months.
- [10:02]
A
Five months. Okay. And then there was the question of, okay, are we going to make this more of a long term situation? And that seems like the more protracted decision making, I'm sure, for you and your family and trying to make decisions. Decisions about what was the right move. Thank you for sharing all of that. I. I'm wondering, you know, when we think about that succession planning, was there, was there something that was already open with the whole executive team was were those conversations that were happening at the board level or the executive team level prior to the situation playing out?
- [10:36]
B
Yeah, they weren't happening at the executive team level. In fact, they were not happening with me. They were happening at a board level, which I think is really important. The board and the CEO of responsibility to have a conversation alongside the chief people officer about who would be ready, what would you be worried about? And so those conversations were happening. No one ever said to me, oh, you are going to be tapped if something were to happen. And I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think if you do do that, and there is hyper competitiveness, I can see a world in which those conversations lead to politics inside of an organization. And when you're so small, you will die by Politics like you can't afford to have politic politicking inside of a business. It just is. I don't think it's good for the culture or the company or how quickly you're trying to move. And so I don't know if it was the good or bad thing that I did or did not know. Given my personality, I'm not sure how much it would have mattered had I not known. But I do think it was really important that the board had been having conversations. We had a business continuity plan, which I did know where I sat in that plan, um, but as a little bit different from succession planning. And so, yes, they had been having conversations. I think they were aware of my. What that succession plan could look like. I think they had multiple options, which I think is also really important when you are thinking about business longevity and continuity. And so, yeah, and so it was a surprise to me, but I don't think it was a surprise surprise to them.
- [12:26]
A
Yeah. Has that been. Been something you've taken as a lesson? Are these conversations that you have now moving forward, does. Has it extended beyond just your board into the leadership team, executive team?
- [12:38]
B
Yeah, I think it's really important. Again, more conversation between the board and the CEO. So myself and the board around what does succession planning look like? When I think about my deputies, who's the person behind them that would step into seat? Very intentional conversations around that. And also how do we think about people and rotating their skill sets or getting them exposure to other parts of the business so that we do have a robust plan has been a really important conversation to have with my chief people officer and then also with our board.
- [13:14]
A
It's a great lesson for anyone who's listening. I think this is something that we often put off for another day. And of course that's. That's sort of the wrong thing to do. And even in, you know, in a big company like yours, a unicorn.
- [13:28]
B
This.
- [13:29]
A
Is a sophisticated business with that kind of resourcing and a board that can think of those things. But a lot of our listeners are running smaller organizations and smaller companies. But these needs are. Are just as important. And so I love that we're just sort of highlighting this as a part of having a healthy business moving forward.
- [13:50]
B
I think it's so important that especially founders take the time to think through what it would look like if they were not able to even manage their business for a month, let alone a year, let alone for the future, for the foreseeable future. And I do think it's something people put Off. I also think there's something that comes with it, which is an acknowledgement that, like, it might not always be you that I require. And we think when we talk about conscious leadership, like, you have to go above the line and come at this from the place of my goal is to build an enduring business, and I won't always be the one running it. And I think if you can't do that, it's really hard to let people into the parts of the business that you might be exceptional at, or to allow people to see where you fumbled or where things are going wrong. And I would say that's so important also for succession planning, so the person who takes over can hit the ground running. I had the fortune of doing customer listening tours right after I took over. It's a piece of advice someone gave me which was like, one of the biggest. There are two things you could do very quickly. One, go talk with every single customer and understand what's working and what's not working so that you have an understanding of your customer base and where things are. And the second is rip band aids. Like, hard decisions need to be made fast, and it sucks. But I think it's important that you take a look at those two things. And I think looking back, the customer piece, the advice, like it is gold. I think it's so important. So whether your customers are end users or your customers are large employers, like, going on that listening tour, I think is critically important. And then the making hard decisions and getting them out of the way, I think is also another one. Otherwise, you spend your time with a thousand cuts, and that's really hard.
- [16:07]
A
Indeed. You opened up the conversation about conscious leadership, and I'd love to hear a little bit about what role conscious leadership played at Guild before the transition and after. I know you're a person who strongly believes in this concept, and I'd love to hear you just kind of give us a little bit more insight into what was happening around conscious leadership at Guild.
- [16:29]
B
Yeah, I think a few things. One is, I didn't totally believe it. I wasn't necessarily a fan of it. And I think a lot of that has to do with. I find a lot of people talk about the types of leaders they want to be, but then behind the scenes, they don't act like the type of leader they want to be. And so I'm just pretty jaded in general by, like, leadership concepts, leadership books, leadership where it's hard to see. It's unclear whether the person's going to talk about the thing. But actually deliver by acting on those values. I really struggled with it at the beginning and I think that as time went on, I kind of reframed the conversation less around worrying about everybody else and more around how can I use this framework to be the best leader I want to be? And how do I use it to understand, most importantly, the concept of when I'm above the line and when I'm below the line? That has been game changing for me in terms of knowing that when I'm making decisions, I'm making them with a clear head, with a perspective that isn't defensive, with an understanding of my enneagram type, which I think is really tied into conscious leadership. And so it's been pretty game changing for me personally as a leader. And I think that it took time to get to a place where I really believed it could be valuable if I'm being completely honest.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, please. I think it's an interesting idea that, you know, it took some time for you to, to learn that this is something that would actually change the way that you lead and the way that you work with your team. What kind of practices have you put in place as a conscious leader and with your executive team? Is this like an active practice at the company today?
- [18:40]
B
You won't like, hear us walking around talking about conscious leadership. Like those words don't come up in everyday conversations. But I do think the, the underlying thesis behind it does come up. So I'll give you a few examples. One is you'll hear people talk about I think you're below the line. Or they'll be like, I think I'm below the line right now. Let me shift so that I can be above the line. You'll hear people talk about how to think about, you know, the role that they're playing in, or if they're showing up defensive in a conversation, you'll hear people talk about their enneagram type on repeat, especially in our executive team, like, oh, my two is showing up or my six is showing up or my one is showing up. And so I think it comes up in those ways. The other way it shows up is so I have a coach. She's kind of trained in conscious leadership. Her name is Sue. She's phenomenal. She does come to our executive team meetings. She also coaches some of the team members individually. And I think those concepts are pretty core to how she coaches. And so it shows up in those ways as well, around the business. And it's great lexicon to use, I think, when you can bring it in. When you can use shared language. It depersonalizes feedback someone might be giving you and allows you to be more available to that feedback. And so it manifests itself in a few different ways inside the organization. And I will credit Rachel and Kaylee, actually, who is Rachel's coach, for kind of bringing the concept of an executive coach to the executive team into conversations. And we've kind of carried that forward.
- [20:34]
A
Do you think of your. The coach that you're referencing as kind of an embedded coach, meaning that this person is sort of a resource. Resource that is available to the entire executive team? Because I think this is a really interesting idea, an embedded coach. It's kind of the. The Windy Rhodes from Billion Billions idea, right?
- [20:57]
B
Yeah. She's. She's available to the entire executive team. She also coaches a few members of the executive team as well who just wanted her to coach them. She's also available to the extended leadership team. So outside of just the executive team, and it's optional whether you want to engage with her, she will give you feedback regardless of whether you want it or not. I think she's most critical of me. And so also, sometimes people are worried about that type of coach and like, what do they tell the CEO versus what do they say to others? And at least in my case, she is most critical of me and most critical of, am I watching my own actions and how am I contributing to the culture I want to create or detracting from the culture I want to create? And I think her having visibility into other conversations. So she sits in exact team time, a regular cadence. She is inside the business on a regular cadence, and she's watching what's happening. And so she will ping me and be like, you are holding this business back because you are doing X or you are. You are like, this meeting is not efficient the way that you're running this meeting. Maybe try this other thing. She's just very. She's been emboldened, I think, to just speak what she thinks, and especially for me to just provide direct feedback. And I trust she's trying to make me better and trying to make Guild successful. And so when it's coming from that place, it's like, yeah, do it, like, make me better so I can make the company better.
- [22:36]
A
That's amazing. I think it's a fascinating opportunity to have somebody who's got such insight into different people's points of view on the same meeting or the same decision that might be happening or the same challenges. And it's. It's a great resource that you're able to sort of let the ego go and be vulnerable and get feedback and take feedback that is that it sounds like that direct and hopefully very useful for you. Do you have any advice to other executives who might be considered considering bringing in a coach that would function in this way? Like, what makes that work and what wouldn't make that work if you were considering it for your company?
- [23:18]
B
Yeah, I think this goes back to what I said before on my, like, suspectness on conscious leadership. If you're trying to.
- [23:26]
A
I love the candor. I mean, that's one of our. One of the values.
- [23:29]
B
If you're trying to build a brand for yourself that's like, predicated on being a type of leader that you're not really, don't do this because this exposes all the ways in which you're misaligned with what you want, how you want to lead. If you are committed to being the type of leader that you say you are and recognizing where your actions don't match your values or your intentions, probably the best possible thing you could do for yourself, and you need it. You need someone to be that mirror. I think one of the hardest parts about the CEO job is even if you create an environment where people feel like they can tell you what they want or push back on you, which people do feel like they can, I can give you stories of someone standing their ground for. For 20 minutes and then coming back 20 minutes later and being like, hey, you're wrong, and here's why. Even then, there are things that you will miss or things that people just feel uncomfortable telling you. And it's just a. It's the power hierarchy that exists in Western culture and society more broadly. And you have to be willing to have someone want to put a mirror in front of you and just tell it like it is. And so I found it to be wildly helpful for me, and I think it's been wildly helpful for cutting some of the noise and reducing, I think, some of the things that guild wasn't great at doing or the way that we operated and has really changed, I think our rhythm and our muscle and our cadence and our how quickly we can move as a business because we're cutting some of the theatrics and the things that are not serving us well.
- [25:29]
A
Yeah, that's wonderful. What other practices help you sort of be present and clear under the pressure you're facing as a CEO? Obviously, coaching plays a big role. Are there other practices that you personally use or that you bring into the executive team?
- [25:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, one is surrounding yourself with people who are going to tell it like it is. I think it's really important. And I think having a relationship with leaders around you that are going to tell it like it is is probably even more important than having the right coach. And I think finding those people who are willing to do that and who are willing to point out when you're wrong I think is very critical. And I do think people tend to surround themselves with people who are more yes. Types because it's just hard. It requires more time, it requires more buy in, it requires more alignment. But I think it leads to better decision making when you have the right people around you. It also means that when you do ultimately make a decision, you're operating. I think at any given time, probably the best amount of information I have is to 60% of the information to make a decision. And operating in an environment where people can just throw at you, like, here's what might go wrong, here's why I think this good idea. Here's why I think it's a bad idea. You can just get to a decision more quickly and feel good about that decision because you've kind of worked through what the pros and cons are and then can move forward. And so my recommendation is that you surround yourself with people who are not willing to just say yes to you, but are really willing to engage in a dialogue, a productive dialogue, but a dialogue around the decision you're making and what the puts and takes are before you make the decision.
- [27:23]
A
I'm really curious, as the CEO of the company, how do you cultivate. That open atmosphere to speak directly, to have a different point of view? Because I think people say that all the time, but in practice, are there things that you do as a CEO to encourage that type of a feedback environment or culture?
- [27:56]
B
Yeah, I think a few things. One, I can be stubborn. So, like, I'm not. I'm not the model example of always open and always available. I can be stubborn in my opinions, in my decisions. And so what's really important and what has been really valuable and helpful is actually having people demonstrating examples of where people changed my mind on something or where they stuck to their perspective and then how I changed my mind. And so I try to give those examples to the broader leadership team, but also to the company on a regular basis. Because I come in sometimes hot, I'll be like, I just heard someone say this and I think it's a great idea. And here's what I think we should do. And so I think you have to be able to match that back in some way, to be able to be like that is a good idea, but here's an even better idea. And so I think that's probably one of the most important ways for me to show people that I am open and available and that this isn't all talk. And so I will celebrate people who stand up, encounter me all the time. And I try to do it in the most public settings I can so that other people also feel like they can come and challenge me on an idea that they have or a way I think I'm thinking about something. I'll also, I try on repeat to give examples of places where I came in with one opinion and actually left with a different decision because I think that also helps show that if you have conviction around something, you should stand your ground. And I think it's really important. And then I give examples of where like people came in and gave a different point of view. And I still stuck to the decision. But I do really try to highlight the places where movement happened because I think it helps people appreciate that I am willing to change my mind even if when I come in hot.
- [29:59]
A
That's great. So just to echo back what you're saying, I'm hearing you say that you're like actively and intentionally socializing the stories of, you know, I thought this, I learned this from someone else and I changed my mind.
- [30:15]
B
Or.
- [30:17]
A
I mean, I always think that's a sign of intelligence is, you know, you think something, you learn something and then you change your mind. That's sort of what we're trying to do here in the world.
- [30:27]
B
I also, there are people at Guild who are pretty good at helping me see when, when I maybe need to change my mind. And so the other thing I tell people is like, if you have strong conviction on something and you're not able to convince me, go find these people to coach you to come back to me if you believe in that thing so much. And so I think that's also helpful for people. Sometimes matching my passion with resisting passion is sometimes very valuable. And so I think that helping people understand who those people are also can be really helpful. And so I try to, I tried to also showcase those individuals so people can go to them and be like, how do you get her to change her mind on this?
- [31:16]
A
I love that. I mean, it sounds to me like you're a very self aware leader. And I think that those are, those are really. It's hard to become self aware and it's hard to let go of Ego and you know, be vulnerable and humble to hear when you're making, you're making mistakes or you're getting something wrong or you're digging in too much and being unreasonable. What's the hardest piece of feedback that you feel like you've gotten recently about your leadership and how have you responded to that?
- [31:49]
B
Oh, man. Just last week. I hope the person who gave me this feedback is listening. Just last week I was on a call. We have, we have two new products that we rolled out and they are amazing products. And we rolled out those products and we have pretty aggressive targets for driving revenue and adoption on those two products. And one of the leaders who runs those products, she's a little bit in and out of the business right now. And so I tend to dive in a little bit more than I would if she were in seat. And so last week she gave me feedback on like, hey, the people below me don't know exactly how to engage with you. So. So you just need to be more intentional and not create thrash in the process of asking questions and trying to unpack what is going on. Like, everybody knows you care and just be really careful. And then she gave me an example. The thing that is most valuable to me, which is what I try to give to other people, is I will give you feedback, but then I'll give you an example. And I need that. I'm like a learn by doing person. The Minds at hand motto is like very much ingrained in my personality, which means like I learn by making mistakes and I learn by people giving me examples of things that I could do differently. And so she like walked me through a very specific example. In this meeting. You did this thing that led to this question, which then led these people down a 24 hour path of trying to pull together something. Did you want that? And I'm like, no, I just wanted an answer to my question. She was like, great, here's the squirrel it created and here's how you probably could have done that differently. And she was right. And I didn't intend to have people go down the path of taking their eye off the ball and creating a document over 24 hours. And so it was a great lesson in being mindful of when the leader or the. But she was buffering, I think, and when the buffer is not there, how I need to be even more explicit and more clear about what I'm looking for and what I'm not looking for so that people don't do work that's unnecessary. Right?
- [34:05]
A
Yeah, it's hard when as the CEO, people obviously are going to respond very seriously and quickly when you say something. So being very intentional, I can imagine, especially in a place where the leader isn't in the seat all the time, could create problems. It's great that you have that environment where people can come and give that candidate of feedback to you. You did this. I didn't, like, wasn't good for the team. You need to take a look at that. That's pretty direct.
- [34:38]
B
Yeah, it's great. And I needed it. And now I've changed my. I was like, okay, here's what I do need. So can you help me think through how I can get what I need in a different way that doesn't create this? And now we have a solve for it. And it took way less time than it probably would have if she had not said anything. Because we've had three more times where I repeated this behavior and it led to like a suboptimal outcome. It distracted people from the thing that they actually need to do, which is like, hit the goal, not create a document for me. And so, yeah, I'm super appreciative that people feel comfortable in that, in saying that thing to me and helping me realize where I could do something differently to achieve the same outcome, but in a different way.
- [35:21]
A
Let's incredibly great modeling for our listeners because I think everyone wants to do better and not distract from the goal and inadvertently maybe doing something that's actually like, working against what we're trying to achieve. So that's a great example. Thank you for sharing that. Well, I would love to just kind of wrap up our conversation today with if you had advice to people, like a little pocket guide for being a conscious leader. Um, you know, what would. What would you. Maybe three little sound bites that you think would help somebody really put these ideas into practice and, and maybe evolve themselves as a leader.
- [36:03]
B
My first piece of advice is like, really ask yourself if this is what you want. Like, conscious leadership is for a very certain type of individual. You have to park your ego. You have to believe that there's a greater good than whatever you're going to do for yourself and that you want to be committed to that. I think it's really important. I care about building a sustainable, durable business where people can thrive and have agency and ownership and where the business is successful. And so that's my purpose, I think when I think about the CEO job at Guild. And so I think understanding that purpose. Purpose is really important. The second is I think finding your mirror, whatever that mirror is, it's not yourself. It's just hard when you are stressed, when you are trying to move quickly to be your own mirror, even if you want to be. And so finding a real, true mirror, those are people just. I'm using mirror as a metaphor. We're going to tell it like it is, I think, is really critical to you learning and evolving over time. I think the last.
- [37:24]
A
Could I ask you, do you think that's generally best found within your organization, or is this an external. Like, what's the fastest path to find this person?
- [37:34]
B
I think they could exist in your organization. I don't think you have to go external to find them. I think find. I think it's the. I read one of the things I do that people tell me not to do is read Glassdoor reviews. And, like, they're probably right. Like, I shouldn't read the Glassdoor reviews. But I believe it's kind of like humor in everything funny. There's a kernel of truth in Glassdoor reviews. Not everything may be the truth, but there's kernels of truth. And Brooks gonna kill me for telling me this, but I read them. I try to read them to get the kernel of truth for what is important for me to know. That needs to evolve. And I think. I think about the mirror concept inside of your business, and it's like, where are you going to find the people who are going to tell you who believe in you? It's not the people who. I think you have to find the right mirror. The mirror isn't someone who wants you fired or someone who wishes you didn't have your job. It's the people who believe in you so much that they want you to be better, and therefore they're willing to tell you the hard truths. And you have to find those people, and you need to use your intuition to find them. But those are the mirrors that you need, and they're really important to find.
- [38:56]
A
And cultivate and build that relationship. I'm sure it takes some encouragement to get to the point where you can say to them, I really need and want this kind of feedback on my performance.
- [39:09]
B
Yeah. I also think you. I think it requires. My coach, sue, always says that one of the things that's most important as you get further along in your career is kind of knowing when you've arrived. And so I also think you have to, like, reach a point of, like, you're not trying to prove something to somebody else. You're trying to improve yourself for yourself. And that is so important. And you have to make that shift. And so I'm not even sure early on in my career, like, I'm super competitive, I wanted to get promoted faster than anyone else did in my class. I wanted to, like, be right. I wanted to show how smart I was. Those are all recipes for not being available and not wanting the mirror. And so I think it's also partially finding the importance of improving yourself for yourself early and quickly so that you can be available to the mirror. Wow.
- [40:18]
A
And what's your third piece of advice?
- [40:21]
B
I think that one of the other things is that there will always be people inside of your organization who don't, especially on your team, who might not believe in the way that you and believe in conscious leadership as an example. I think you have to find what's right for you. And then for the people who don't believe in it or think it's like, a lot of fluff, I think it's also important to recognize that those types of people always exist and the optimization function isn't them. The optimization function is how do you build a better culture? How do you build a better business? And how do you build a better you? And, like, it's okay to sometimes have some naysayers that probably will make the experience even better. And not everybody has to be 100% aligned with everything that you're going to try and do to improve yourself and improve the culture.
- [41:14]
A
Good advice. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. You really have a unique story and it's. It's really applicable. There's a lot of things that you shared today that I think are applicable to any founder or culture creator who's listening to this podcast. So thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us today.
- [41:36]
B
Thank you for hearing my story. And yeah, I hope it's helpful to anyone. Even one person would be really great.
- [41:42]
A
Thanks for listening to the Conscious Entrepreneur. Every episode here is meant to sharpen how you lead and how you live. If something landed for you, please share it. Founder to founder. I'll meet you here next week.