TCC Podcast 3: Optimizing for Conversions with Talia Wolf

Summary

The Copywriter Club Podcast: Optimizing for Conversions with Talia Wolf

Episode 3 | Release Date: January 1, 2017

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Introduction

In the third episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, hosts Rob Marsh and Kira Hug engage in an insightful conversation with Talia Wolf, a renowned conversion marketing expert. The discussion delves into Talia's expertise in emotional targeting, her journey in conversion optimization, the creation and launch of her course, and her perspectives on what defines a great copywriter.

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Talia Wolf's Journey in Conversion Optimization

Rob Marsh welcomes Talia Wolf and prompts her to share her professional journey.

[01:07] Talia Wolf: "I've been doing conversion optimization for around six years. I started my own agency focusing on a methodology I developed called Emotional Targeting."

Talia recounts founding her conversion optimization agency, which served global clients by enhancing website performance through her unique Emotional Targeting methodology. After selling her agency, she transitioned to running her own consultancy and training business, continuing to impact businesses worldwide through workshops and speaking engagements.

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Understanding Emotional Targeting

Kira Hug steers the conversation towards Talia's signature approach.

[02:30] Talia Wolf: "Conversion optimization was a way of meeting and satisfying my customers' expectations and helping them solve their challenges to increase conversion rates."

Talia explains that Emotional Targeting moves beyond mere technical metrics, emphasizing a deep understanding of customer emotions and decision-making processes. Rather than random A/B tests, her methodology involves comprehensive research—interviewing customers, analyzing competitors, and building detailed personas—to identify emotional triggers that drive conversions.

[04:54] Talia Wolf: "Everything we buy has an emotional reason to it. My goal is to find out what that emotional reason is and how I can tap into that."

By integrating emotional insights with analytical data, Talia formulates hypotheses that address the root causes of conversion leaks, enabling more effective and meaningful optimization strategies.

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Course Creation and Launch Experience

Kira inquires about the development and launch of Talia's course on Emotional Targeting.

[09:33] Talia Wolf: "From the moment I decided to create the course, it took about four months. It was a lot of work, but I loved every moment of it."

Talia describes the meticulous process of course creation, highlighting challenges such as designing content, recording sessions, and managing the marketing aspects—particularly selling an online course, which was new territory for her. Collaborating with Kira Hug for copywriting, Talia experienced unexpected outcomes during the launch.

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Insights and Surprises from the Launch

Reflecting on the launch, Talia shares surprising findings related to her sales strategy.

[12:27] Talia Wolf: "This was the first time I launched a landing page that was a gazillion words. It felt like 5,000 words with the call to action after 2,000 words."

Contrary to her previous experiences with concise landing pages, Talia's extended narrative approach—featuring a personal story of skydiving—resulted in higher engagement than anticipated. Contrary to typical heat map data suggesting limited scrolls, her audience read through the lengthy content, demonstrating the effectiveness of emotionally driven storytelling.

[15:05] Talia Wolf: "Email marketing was the biggest channel for me, and it was fantastic."

The use of consistent email marketing proved highly successful, driving substantial course sales and fostering connections with a diverse audience of copywriters, designers, and entrepreneurs. Despite initial hesitations and subscriber losses due to frequent emails, the strategy ultimately paid off.

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Skydiving: An Analogy for Conversion Optimization

Kira shifts the discussion to Talia's personal passion—skydiving—and its parallels with her professional work.

[18:13] Talia Wolf: "Skydiving is the essence of emotional targeting for me. My biggest fear is flying, but jumping required preparation, teamwork, and a defined goal—much like conversion optimization."

Talia draws parallels between the meticulous preparation and teamwork required in skydiving and the strategic processes in conversion optimization. The emotional aspects of overcoming fear and taking calculated risks mirror the necessity of trusting hypotheses and allowing tests to run their course in marketing.

[23:23] Talia Wolf: "You need to really take that plunge. After all your research and creating the hypothesis, you have to launch the test and trust it."

This analogy underscores the importance of preparation, collaboration, and courage in both personal endeavors and professional optimization efforts.

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Advice for Copywriters: Integrating Emotional Triggers and Collaboration

Rob Marsh highlights the significance of emotional triggers in copywriting, seeking actionable advice for listeners.

[07:27] Talia Wolf: "Any copywriter that starts writing good copy first needs to understand who they're writing for. It's about telling the customer's story."

Talia emphasizes that effective copywriting begins with a deep understanding of the target audience. She advises shifting focus from product-centric language to customer-centric narratives that resonate emotionally.

[25:01] Talia Wolf: "It's always about the customer. The person reading the content is your focus, and everything works together—words, design, images."

She stresses the synergy between copywriters and designers, noting that visual elements and textual content must complement each other to create a cohesive and persuasive user experience. Understanding how colors, fonts, and layouts influence perception is crucial for copywriters aiming to enhance conversion rates.

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Characteristics of a Great Copywriter

Kira seeks Talia's perspective on what distinguishes exceptional copywriters.

[28:23] Talia Wolf: "Being part of the entire process is essential. It's about conversion optimization and gaining extensive knowledge about your clients."

Talia believes that great copywriters are deeply integrated into the entire project lifecycle, collaborating with designers, developers, and project managers. They contribute beyond writing, offering insights on layout, design elements, and strategic positioning to ensure that the copy supports overall conversion goals.

[28:23] Talia Wolf: "You have to listen to others and be involved in every aspect of the design and project."

Such involvement fosters a holistic approach to projects, where copywriters not only craft compelling messages but also ensure that every element aligns to create an effective conversion funnel.

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Post-Launch Strategy and Business Growth

Rob and Kira inquire about Talia's next steps following her successful course launch.

[31:15] Talia Wolf: "I'm focusing on engaging with each student, collecting feedback, and building personal relationships to improve future launches."

Talia highlights the importance of retention and continuous engagement. By maintaining open communication with her students and understanding their needs, she refines her course content and prepares for future relaunches. This approach ensures sustained business growth through customer satisfaction and iterative improvements.

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Impact of Speaking Engagements

Kira asks about the role of Talia's speaking engagements in her career development.

[33:52] Talia Wolf: "Speaking didn't directly bring a load of clients, but it helped me build processes, grow subscribers, and connect with amazing peers."

While speaking at conferences expanded her network and subscriber base, the most significant benefit was the creation of a supportive community within the conversion optimization field. Building relationships with peers like Joanna Wiebe and Angie Schopmuller has been invaluable for professional growth and collaborative opportunities.

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Final Thoughts and Personal Insights

As the podcast concludes, the hosts engage Talia in a lighthearted discussion about her favorite Harry Potter character, highlighting her personable nature.

[36:00] Talia Wolf: "I think Luna Lovegood is my favorite. She's supportive, always listening, and gives amazing advice even when it sounds crazy."

The conversation wraps up with Talia encouraging listeners to connect with her online through her website and Twitter, where she shares insights and engages with the community.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast offers valuable insights into conversion optimization through Talia Wolf's Emotional Targeting methodology. Her experiences in course creation, the effectiveness of emotional storytelling, and the importance of collaboration provide actionable strategies for copywriters aiming to enhance their craft. Additionally, Talia's personal anecdotes and analogies enrich the discussion, making complex concepts relatable and inspiring.

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Notable Quotes:

• [02:30] "Everything we buy has an emotional reason to it. My goal is to find out what that emotional reason is and how I can tap into that." — Talia Wolf

• [07:27] "Any copywriter that starts writing good copy first needs to understand who they're writing for. It's about telling the customer's story." — Talia Wolf

• [25:01] "It's always about the customer. The person reading the content is your focus, and everything works together—words, design, images." — Talia Wolf

• [28:23] "Being part of the entire process is essential. It's about conversion optimization and gaining extensive knowledge about your clients." — Talia Wolf

• [36:00] "I think Luna Lovegood is my favorite. She's supportive, always listening, and gives amazing advice even when it sounds crazy." — Talia Wolf

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For more episodes, detailed show notes, and to join the community, visit TheCopyWriterClub.com.

Transcript

[Kira Hug]

So what if you could hang out with really talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Kira and I try to do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast.

[Rob Marsh]

You are invited to join the club for episode three as we chat with conversion marketing expert Talia Wolf about emotional targeting, conversion optimization, the impact of speaking, speaking engagements on her career, and her thoughts about what makes a good copywriter. Hey Rob. Hey Talia.

[Kira Hug]

Hey Kira.

[Rob Marsh]

Talia, hey, how's it going?

[Talia Wolf]

Thanks.

[Rob Marsh]

Good, good. Thanks for joining us here today. Talia. Can you just start off by sharing briefly your story of kind of how you got to where you are today, where you just launched a course which we want to talk about in a little bit and kind of the path like how you got here.

[Talia Wolf]

Sure. So I've been doing conversion optimization for I think around six years. I'm never really sure because I actually started doing conversion optimization before I really knew that what I was actually doing. But I started my own conversion optimization agency around six years ago and the conversion optimization agency we worked as an agency, we worked with companies all over the world helping businesses optimize their websites with a methodology that I developed called the Emotional targeting methodology, which I'm sure we'll touch on soon. And I actually sold it last year. But during that time while I was doing that, I was also teaching and doing a lot of workshops and speaking all over the world in different conferences and teaching this methodology and helping companies everywhere. And then the past year basically been running my own conversion optimization consultancy business and training and I love it.

[Kira Hug]

Basically that's an interesting career path, lots of different things. So let's sort of cut to the chase. With the training that you developed and a lot of the things that you focused on with your career, what is the deal with emotional targeting?

[Talia Wolf]

Basically what happened is when I started doing conversion optimization, first I was relying on all sorts of hunches and just guessing what I should optimize. And I was optimizing based on blog posts and different articles that I found. And I didn't really have a process set in mind. But the one thing that I did notice is that everyone was paying a lot of attention to behavioral elements such as geographical location or the age of a customer or the browser that they were using. A lot of technical parts but not enough information, not enough emphasis on the actual customer. For me, conversion optimization was a way of meeting and satisfying my customers expectations and helping Them with their challenges so that they can actually solve their challenges. And then I would increase my conversion rate. So it's about understanding who my customers are and creating an experience for them. And so I set on this path to creating a methodology that would help me A understand better how to optimize the funnel, how to meet my customers expectations and B, get to know my customers better and of course optimize those conversions. So instead of testing random call to action buttons or titles, for me it was more about finding a real process where I can learn as much as possible. And essentially that's what conversion optimization is, is all about. It's not about just optimizing one KPI and getting more downloads or sales, it's about really transforming your business by gaining as much knowledge as possible about your customers. And once you've done that, you can optimize every part of your funnel. Not just the top part of the funnel or even a thank you page, but you can optimize shipping and billing and customer success and many other departments. So the emotional targeting methodology is essentially my way and a process of getting to know the customers better, understanding their decision making process, understanding their challenges, and then using that knowledge to create a better experience.

[Kira Hug]

So you're talking about testing strategies versus elements. Does that sound about right? So how do you do that?

[Talia Wolf]

Well, you know, every CRO process starts in the same way. We start by finding a leak. So finding where the story is. That's where most optimizers are. They look at Google Analytics, they may use some heat maps, look at looking at user behavior. And that is the first point which is great, but then is, you know, then comes the next part. So what is the actual story? You found where the leak is, but you don't know why it's happening. So the emotional targeting methodology helps you understand why this is happening. So we'll do very in depth research, we'll talk to customers, we'll interview them, we'll talk to the staff itself, we'll do a competitor research, we'll build profiles and Personas, we'll actually look into swats and different marketing techniques into really identifying the emotional triggers of customers. The idea that stands behind it is that everything we buy in life has an emotional reason to it. Whether it's to feel loved, part of a community, just to feel better about ourselves. Everything we buy has an emotional reason to it. So my goal is to find out what that emotional reason is and how I can tap into that. Once I actually combine the two, the analytical data and the research about my customer, it's easier for me to come up with a hypothesis of how I would actually fix that leak. I have a better understanding of what kind of customer journey my customers are expecting, what kind of words they're looking for, what kind of content, colors, images, elements on a page then they need in order to feel secure, safe, happy, loved, or whatever the emotional triggers are. And I combine all that into an hypothesis. So essentially, instead of just testing red versus blue, I test an entire overhaul strategy and see what happens. So if something, if the test wins, and that's great, we also see an uplift and we also know why that actually worked. If it doesn't and we didn't increase conversion, we still have the knowledge of why it didn't work. So what emotional triggers don't work or do work. So that's kind of the way the process goes.

[Rob Marsh]

And for copywriters specifically, this is so huge for them to be able to use the emotional triggers in their copy when they're working on a campaign. So for someone that's listening and they're like, oh, this makes sense, I want to start doing more of this. Is there one way that, like, almost like a baby step that we can take to start using your methodology in our own work?

[Talia Wolf]

I think any copywriter that starts writing good copy first needs to understand who they're writing for. I mean, at the end of the day, you're telling a story. It's not just words on the page. You're telling a story, you're telling the customer's story. One of the basic laws, laws, foundations of emotional targeting, is that no matter what you're selling, what customers really care about is the why, not the what. So that's the first thing we usually look at, especially in copying content. So how can we actually turn it around from talking about your product, your pricing, your features, about yourself, to talking about the customer and making it about them. When you make it about them, they listen, they care, they convert, and they will read on. There's this thing that people like to say that people don't read copy, right? Write as short as copy as you can, and people haven't got the patience to read. But in fact, I don't think it's that at all. I think it's all about the fact that we don't know how to write. We write about ourselves, so we don't give people the reason to continue reading. So words are extremely important in capturing people's attention and giving them the why you should continue reading and finding out.

[Kira Hug]

So.

[Talia Wolf]

So I would Definitely start by a. Making it about the customer. And if you want to go back a few steps, even before that is just talking to customers, talking to the clients, understanding who they are, and most importantly, what are they looking for. So how does this product or service actually help them and solve their challenges?

[Kira Hug]

You've obviously taken a lot of this stuff and put it into a course that I think you just went through a launch and closed that maybe a couple weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about the process of creating a course. Seems like everybody has a course these days. But what is that process? Like, how much time did it take? You know, what, as you put that together, how did it go? And as you launched, you know, what did you learn from the whole process?

[Talia Wolf]

Well, I think from the moment I decided to actually do, took me about four months to create.

[Kira Hug]

Wow.

[Talia Wolf]

Yeah, it was, it was. There was a lot of work into it. I'm a perfectionist. So for me it was a lot, a lot of work. I loved every moment of it. The frustrating moments, the hard moments, the great moments. But it really was something completely new to me. There's a saying in Israel that the shoemaker walks barefoot. And I couldn't agree more. It's so funny that I've been doing, you know, helping the largest enterprises in the world optimize their website, been writing content for them, and I've been designing stuff for them and increasing their conversion rates, you know, by hundreds of percent. And then it comes to your own business and you just sit there and everything is suddenly scary. Everything is suddenly, you know, should I do it, should I not do it? I take. You take less risks and stuff. So it was a very educating process for me, recording all the content and even before recording, writing out all the content, creat presentations for it, then recording it, then editing everything, then remembering that I want to say a ton of more stuff and putting it in there. And then all of the, all of the marketing aspect of it too, is huge. You know, how do you actually even sell a course online? I've never done that before. And, you know, I've seen amazing colleagues of mine do such great work, which I had the pleasure of having them as mentors and talking to them and really kind of listening to their tips and ideas on how I can do it. But it really was a roller coaster. It was crazy. And I had. It was great. I learned a lot. And especially, I guess because I'm an optimizer, I have such a long list of things that I want to optimize and change for my next launch, basically. So for me this was like a dry run here. I'm going to put in my everything for this course and all the students that enrolled and learn as much as possible so that I can just do better every single time I launch and change something.

[Rob Marsh]

I'm just curious to hear more. What surprised you copy wise from the launch regarding the sales page emails, as far as what actually worked and what didn't work, because I know you have all your stats already, we should jump.

[Kira Hug]

In and say that Kira actually was the copywriter you worked with for your.

[Talia Wolf]

Launch page and she did an amazing job.

[Rob Marsh]

Thank you.

[Talia Wolf]

I wasn't going to say anything, but why not? Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was surprising. I think I was saying to Kira the other day that I have been optimizing landing pages for as long as I can remember and I have a certain way around it. Even when you say don't do best practices and you do your research all the time, but you have this certain type of thing that you know that works. This was the first time that I ever launched a landing page that was a gazillion words. It was crazy. Like, yes, like five. Kira knows better. It felt like a gazillion words, like 5,000 words. And the call to action was like after 2,000 words. That's how I felt. I'm sure it was less Kira. It was a big challenge for me personally to accept that and to say it's okay, you know, but the call to action isn't above the fold or it doesn't come in, you know, after a certain amount of words or there aren't certain specific bullet points that make the case. And. And it was also about me. So the landing page was, you know, a personal story about me and my skydiving and why I started. And so it was. It was a huge thing. And I think it's so great to have, you know, to have been doing something for so long and still be surprised every single time you launch a new test. And for me it was so educating and so exciting to see the results because people and I, you know, I was just looking at the heat map before around 50 or 60% of. Sorry, around most of people, like 90% of people would scroll like 50 or 60% of the page. People were reading that thing. Like I. It was crazy. And for me, just to watch people read on and on and I was getting responses and people were emailing me and asking me, you know, why do I do this and why did I do that? An interesting story so it was an amazing experience for me to try something completely different than what I'm used to. And the other thing that was hard for me to do was actually emailing my list every single day.

[Rob Marsh]

Lots of emails.

[Talia Wolf]

Yeah, I spoke to. As I said, I spoke to a few friends of mine and colleagues who have done so many launches, and they sell a lot of courses, and they said, you can't be afraid to email these people. You have to email them every day. It's your duty. It's the right thing. You're selling an amazing product course, amazing content that's gonna help everyone. You should feel proud about it. But it was so hard, and I did lose subscribers, and I did get, you know, emails from people asking if they could be removed from this list and just be on that list and stuff. So it was. It was. It was kind of a challenge for me to say it's okay to do that. I was gaining many new subscribers every day, but just kind of seeing that every day was very hard and kind of trying to figure it all out and be confident enough to continue emailing people about the course and feeling confident about it, if that makes sense.

[Rob Marsh]

And what marketing tactic worked the best for you?

[Talia Wolf]

Well, I think it was definitely the email marketing. I mean, I have been doing a lot of email marketing for. For my clients before, which I've sold actual products for. But it was really interesting to see how the email was working well and how it was actually selling and really bringing in people to the course. A lot of different people from all over, from different career points, many copywriters, many designers, many entrepreneurs. It was lovely, and it was surprising. I mean, we did a bunch of different things and we tried stuff. I also had the privilege of having amazing people tweet about it and write on Facebook about the course, and that definitely also delivered and drove in sales for the course. But the email marketing was the biggest channel for me, and it was fantastic.

[Kira Hug]

It sounds like a great resource and something that if a copywriter were considering wanting to learn more about conversion optimization and emotional targeting, that they should probably get on your list so that they can know about it when you relaunch in the coming months. Talia, we've been talking for a little, roughly 20 minutes, and we haven't even talked about skydiving, which is maybe a little bit weird because you seem to always sort of start with this story or this part of your life. I'm curious, because you've talked about it so much. What have you learned from skydiving that you take to conversion optimization. What are some of the things, why do you do it first of all? And how does that impact the rest of your life?

[Talia Wolf]

I do it because I'm crazy. I love it. I really, really love it. And it's actually, I think that was the first story I ever told on stage. Skydiving for me is the essence of emotional targeting because my biggest fear in life is flying. I am petrified of plan planes and that's a big issue because I fly a lot. But I really don't like it. I really, really don't like it. But somehow, you know, I found myself, I think it was six years ago, I jumping out of the plane to impress a guy. I just really liked him and I really wanted to impress him and I wanted him to think that I was cool and this, you know, kick ass awesome person. I was petrified, but I did it because, you know, it turned me into this cool, awesome person. And that's kind of, you know, a funny way to explain emotional targeting because we do stuff irrationally, we then explain it with ration but you know, we do them without thinking. And it's funny because obviously I didn't end up with this guy, but I did end up falling in love, madly in love with skydiving. And I think it's definitely, you know, a big part of it is because it makes me feel really awesome about myself and cool and I enjoy it and it liberates a lot of things in me that I don't get to kind of express at work or day to day kind of stuff. So skydiving really does create a better version of me. And I think that's what people buy, they buy better versions of themselves. So it really is the essence of emotional targeting, just kind of buying stuff to increase how you feel about yourself. And I think there's a lot to learn from skydiving. And according to conversion optimization, there's a lot of resemblance. It's a, the idea of preparation. So you can't just jump out of plane. I mean you can, but that will be kind of a waste. There's a lot of prepping, there's working with your team, there's a lot of research that you do beforehand. So you join a certain team and you sit with them and you plan the skydive and you talk about everything that you're going to do and we each know each other's strengths and weaknesses and we discuss how it's going to work best and we plan everything beforehand. There's a lot of research that goes into the jump. And I think that's obviously a cool thing that's got to do with a true conversion optimization process. Really does a lot. Have a lot of research in it. It's teamwork because you can't really do it alone. And you also have a defined goal. So similar to conversion optimization, you want to increase something, you want to learn something. In skydiving, you have a defined goal. You want to optimize your personal progress and your teams, and you only have one goal per jump.

[Kira Hug]

To land safely.

[Talia Wolf]

Yes.

[Kira Hug]

To be alive at the end.

[Talia Wolf]

That too. You forget that once you've had 700 jumps, but yes, definitely. And there's, you know, there's a lot of things, but I think the biggest thing is probably like, taking the plunge. It's, you know, you're standing in an airplane and you're about to jump out, and it is scary. Yeah. You know, even after 700 jumps. And it's. And I think it's really important that you have that fear in you because you want to be alert. You want to be aware. The people that you know don't have that fear are the people that get hurt and think they can do anything. So you have this fear and, you know, blood rushes to your brain and you get this adrenaline rush, and, you know, you really want to stay focused. And. And it's the same kind of with testing. You need to really take that plunge. And after you've done all of your research and all of your creating the hypothesis and creating the different variations and everything, at some point after you've done QA and everything, you have to just launch the test. And more importantly, you have to trust in it and let it run and not stop it and kind of just have faith in it for as long as possible and watch the numbers grow or decrease or whatever in order to learn as much as possible. So there's a lot of different things that skydiving has given me as a person and has also helped me to become a better optimizer on different kind of levels.

[Rob Marsh]

I think I feel like Rob and I should go skydiving together is a true bonding experience. In honor of this podcast to become.

[Kira Hug]

I'm like you. I hate flying. And the idea of jumping out of an airplane that's not crashing is like, it's not happening.

[Talia Wolf]

I have to say that I was on a plane once my entire life. Well, we had to jump out, so we were going to skydive. We're going to have. And there was a problem with the plane, and they told us all to jump out. That was the actual only time I had fear, you know, of jumping out because you don't have the time to prep or anything. But it's funny, everyone keeps telling me, how can you jump out of a perfectly fine, you know, airplane? I'm like, actually, that makes complete sense to me. Rather than jumping out of an airplane that's, you know, about to crash and you're like, ah, screaming and going, yeah, no thank you, Talia.

[Rob Marsh]

I keep thinking about this, you know, as far as copywriting from your perspective with your work with copywriters and your optimization work, you know, as we approach 2017, what do, what does a copywriter really need to have skill wise and maybe just an understanding of in the new year in order to really truly be up to date and cutting edge? Do we need to know the colors? Do we need to submit design ideas when we're working on projects to really include the emotion in multiple ways, not just through the words?

[Talia Wolf]

Yeah, I really like that question because I actually get it from the other side a lot from designers. One of the things that I think is really important and I guess the two things that I would say that you should really focus on and know is one is that it's always about the customer. You should always have that in mind. The person that's actually reading the content, you're trying to convert that one person and you're trying to kind of appeal to them on an emotional level and connect with them. But the other is, and you just started mentioning is that words don't work alone, design doesn't work alone, images don't work alone, everything works together. So you can have killer copy, but if it's not, you know, set in the right, you know, in the right way, if you don't have the right color background, if you don't have the right images, if you don't have the certain elements that you need there to support that copy, it's not going to work. And I usually have to say this quite a lot to design is because one of the things that most people know is that our brains process images and colors far faster than text. So that is usually the first thing that people see on a page or on an ad is kind of the colors that stand out and the images that are there. But they wouldn't work if you didn't have really kick ass copy to convince someone to click. So you grab people's attention, but you need someone, you need those words to, to support it. So you really do have to pay attention to it. All, you can't just write amazing copy, but when you do that, you need to also pay attention to the design behind it. And I think you and I went through that process when we had all the content for the sales page, and I was like, okay, so just so you know, here's the landing page. And I want to get feedback from you as a copywriter to what you think. And for me, it is really important because I want my copywriter not to just be able to say, okay, here are the best words that I can write. But also look at it from a conversion standpoint, and look at it as, this is how someone reads text. You know, if your font is in a certain way, if the background is a certain color, if there's too much of something, it creates, you know, all sorts of different triggers and unconscious biases that we're not even aware of. It's funny that if you use certain fonts or if you write in a certain type or size of a font, it creates more trust. And these are things that have, you know, they're not to do with the words, they're to do with design, but you still have to know them. So if you want to be considered as a conversion copywriter, if you want to write something that's meaningful, you can't just deliver the words. You have to understand all of the context around it and, you know, how that copy should also be read and by who it's being read and what's around it.

[Kira Hug]

That is really good advice, in my opinion, and I hope I'm not asking the same question in a different way. But, Talia, you've written a ton of content. You've worked with copywriters throughout your career. What would you say is the thing that makes a copywriter great?

[Talia Wolf]

I mean, I think it definitely is being part of the entire process. For me, it's always about conversion optimization, or customer optimization, as I prefer to call it. We can't work in silos. We have to work together. The purpose of conversion optimization is gaining knowledge, as much knowledge as possible possible about your clients. So when you're doing research for your copy, it's the same research that the design is going to use, or the developer or the product manager or anyone involved in the product in the project is going to use. This is valuable information. So when you do customer surveys, when you do interviews, when you do a competitor research, any of this type of research that you're doing is so valuable to everyone on the team. And I think what really makes a good copywriter, other than the fact of being involved in every aspect and not just handing over copy and saying, here, I've done my job, but really looking at it and saying, you know, I wrote this copy, but I don't think it should look like this. I think it should be placed this way, and I think it should be aligned to the right or to the left, and I think it should have this color and this size, and it should be whatever you have. In terms of comments, Working with a team, talking to the designer, talking to the project manager, talking to the product manager, and understanding each and every person's challenges, the stuff that they are dealing with, and seeing how you can all work together as a team is priceless. It really is. You can really see a difference, but between very large organizations where I spend a lot of time breaking those silos, and small teams of like, two, three people that are working on something together, and they just get it out the door within a few days because they're so connected. They share everything. They're constantly talking, they listen to each other, they feed off each other, and that's what makes a winning team. So. So it's not a silo thing. You really do have to be part of the team. You have to contribute to it. You have to listen to other people, and you have to be involved in every aspect of the design and whatever the project is.

[Rob Marsh]

Yeah. I think at this point, if you're a copywriter, you need to work with the designer on the project and have that initial conversation and be in touch throughout the project in order to really have it all. All connect in the end. So I want to just ask, really, my final question for you is, now that you have the masterclass, you launched it, you've got the people. What do you do now? How do you make it successful so you can continue to grow your business?

[Talia Wolf]

I'm doing a couple of things. First of all is I'm actually talking really paying attention to every single student in my class. I have already produced all the content, and it is online content, so they could just watch it online and, you know, perform all the tasks. And I have weekly live calls where they could log in. I don't really have to do more than that, but I'm doing a lot more. I'm conversing with them, I'm talking to them, I'm asking them questions. I'm trying to get their feedback. I'm trying to understand what matters to them, what's important to them. I'm also reaching out to people who were on the fence to try and figure out why didn't they sign up, why didn't they enroll to the course so I can see if I can optimize that. But for me, the most important thing is I'm really trying to create a personal relationship with everyone in the class, just get to know them better. It's amazing for them because they get one on one time with me. They can talk about their own personal stuff that they need help with. But also for me, I am learning so much about who my customers are, who my target audience is and it helps me improve the content that I'm writing for our blog. It helps me improve the emails that I'm sending out, everything basically, but isn't even to do with the course because I will be relaunching again, I guess, you know, towards June or July of 2017. And I want to have all this knowledge so I can really provide amazing content for my students. It's so important to me to do that because, you know, there's this I recently wrote an article on Copy Hackers about it is that the conversion doesn't stop when someone signs up or purchases something from you. It's retention. Retention is so important. And keeping those students happy and helping them out and helping them achieve their goals that they signed up for is a key thing for me. So that's kind of what I'm focusing on right now.

[Kira Hug]

Talia, I have one last question for you as well and that is around the speaking engagements that you do, you speak all over the world and it's where I first saw you was speaking at a conference. What impact has that had on your career and just, you know, finding customers or people to work with.

[Talia Wolf]

I think it kind of depends on the period I was in in terms of where I was in my career and also what my goal was. I wouldn't say that speaking at conferences got me a load of clients or client work for conversion optimization. It did help me get to know a lot of people. It helped me build new processes for my business. I'm actually, you know, I got a lot of, I'd grow my subscribers subscribers and I get a lot of interesting connections. I did, you know, I would get clients from conferences, but I don't think that was the biggest kind of outcome of it. I think it might be funny to say, but for me, the most amazing thing that happened to me from all of these speaking and conferences and events that I've done is actually meeting a meeting amazing colleagues and peers like Joanna Wiebe, Angie Schopmuller, Pep Lyer, Ollie Gardner and so many amazing people. And we've become a community that really supports each other and helps each other out. And I think that's what I really love about the conversion optimization community, is that it's a small community, but we're all there for each other. So we talk a lot and mentor each other and help help each other out. And I think that was one of the biggest perks for me other than getting clients and subscribers and meeting amazing people.

[Rob Marsh]

Talia, before we wrap, I want to thank you for taking time to hang out with us and share. Share your launch experience and everything else. And I want to know personally, who is your favorite Harry Potter character before we jump off? Because that's the most important, important question here of all.

[Talia Wolf]

I was just gonna say that, you know, Rob was saying before, we've gone a full 20 minutes without talking about skydiving. And I was just gonna say, and Harry Potter.

[Kira Hug]

Nope, we're not gonna let you go.

[Talia Wolf]

Oh. I think I'm gonna say Luna Lovegood, because it's, you know, it's too easy to choose the main characters. You know, everyone, you know, Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore, they're amazing. But there's something magical about Luna that she is such a good friend. She is so supportive of her friends. She's always listening to them and helping them out. And she gives the most amazing advice, even when it sounds totally crazy. She somehow always makes her friends feel good about themselves. And I think she went through an amazing transition throughout the entire books. Her and Neville were two characters that I really love to just see how they grew and really became amazing human beings throughout the entire books.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. In some ways, I sort of see you, Talia, as the Luna Lovegood of Conversion, of the Conversion world. Right. Amazing advice. Sort of a magical heir to you. If somebody's looking to connect with you after the podcast, where would they find you?

[Talia Wolf]

Online, mainly on my website, which is Talia gw.com that's where I share all my articles and thoughts and ranting. And that's where the most masterclasses too. So you can always find me there or on Twitter where I constantly talking about Harry Potter and Star Wars. They're very welcome to follow.

[Rob Marsh]

And because of you, I am now a Harry Potter fan. I avoided it for years, but ever since working with you, I was like, well, Talia does it. And if she's listening and watching this.

[Talia Wolf]

Movie, I should too. That's why, like, my biggest achievement from this course is like, the next time someone asks me so what is the biggest achievement? I got Kira to watch and read Harry Potter.

[Rob Marsh]

Well, thank you, Talia. And with that, we will wrap the show.

[Kira Hug]

You've been listening to the Copywriter Club podcast with Kyra Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Widest Boy Alive, available in itunes. If you like what you once you've heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in itunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript and links to our free Facebook community, visit TheCopyWriterClub.com we'll see you next episode.