← The Copywriter Club Podcast
The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #421: The Course Corrector with Maya Stojkovich
00:52:58
What does it take to create a course that delivers on its promise and ensures that students get through all of the material? On the 421st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, copywriter and course corrector, Maya Stojkovich,
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- [00:00]
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- [00:35]
Rob Marsh
Why are so many course creators failing when it comes to selling their courses? Or worse, they do sell their courses or their memberships or their workshops, but the people who buy them don't finish them. I've certainly bought my share of courses with the full intention that I was going to complete the training and the assignments and a few of them are still waiting there months, sometimes even years later. So what's up with that? Hi, I'm Rob Marsh and on today's episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, I talked with copywriter and course corrector Maya Stojkovich. Maya is one half of the partnership behind the Course Corrector, a program designed to help course creators fix the things that keep course buyers from finishing the work and getting the results that they want. The other half of this partnership is Linda Perry, who's been on the podcast several times before. You can find her her episodes in our back catalog in your favorite podcast player. On this episode, Maya shared the formula for making sure that a course will deliver the promised result and keep students engaged and smart. Copywriters will notice some big similarities between what she shared and what we often put into a winning sales message, so stay tuned for that. Just a quick plug. This episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Underground, the only membership for copywriters focused exclusively on helping you build your business skills. The skills that help you attract clients, create services that they want to buy, price those services effectively, and run a business that's fully booked and profitable. Does it really make a difference? Absolutely it does. Members tell us that it's the best investment that they've made in themselves. The training, the resources, the templates, critiques, the community. They're all game changers. And you can find out more, even try it risk free for 30 days at the copywriterclub.com tcu and now let's get to our interview with Maya Stokovic. Maya, welcome to the Copyright podcast. Let's start with how you got to where you are. How did you become a copywriter, a teacher, and now a course corrector?
- [02:43]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me on. I'm sorry. So excited. That is a wonderful question. How I got here, I'd say is a pretty non traditional route. Everything about it seemed traditional at first. I went to college. I got an English degree. I actually started off working in politics, and that's what I really thought I wanted to do. And then I ultimately recognized that it wasn't the life for me. And so I actually ended up coming home and I was trying to reassess, and, you know, I got the chance to actually join the accelerator. And that was the first course I ever took. And I sat there and was like, this is really something. But there was a piece that was missing. I wasn't fully engaged, but I also like to blame that on being 20 and 21 and not really knowing who I am at that age. And I continued to learn. I took so many courses that full year I was just taking course after course. I actually ended up becoming a certified mindset coach, and that really helped shape the rest of my career path. I actually settled down into marketing for a while, and then I up and moved, and I ended up being a paralegal, a teacher education programs coordinator, and it seems all over the place. But now, sitting where I am as one half of the course corrector, I recognize that my entire path was just setting me up to become this course strategist, to actually dive into the courses that I had taken in prior and say, you know, what can I take from this? And actually apply it to courses everywhere.
- [04:21]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I love that. And obviously, all of the things that you've done have, you know, created. You've gotten you where you are. It's the way paths work. Right? All of us. But of all of those positions, did you have a favorite and some big takeaways from, you know, is it being a teacher, mindset coach, paralegal? I don't know.
- [04:41]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, I know, right? So many. I would say that the most impactful was actually the education programs coordinator. I got to learn what it took to craft this beautiful narrative. I taught environmental sciences to third and fifth graders, so it's a tough audience, but I got to craft this beautiful narrative with these programs about salt marshes, about forests, about fiddler crabs. And I had to make it exciting for these kids. I had to get them interested and be like, here's why you should care, and here's why this matters is applicable to you and your lives as small children. And it was just this beautiful process, and it gave me so much information about teaching and of itself that I now have the ability to apply to courses.
- [05:33]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. That basically is what you're doing now. So let's, let's talk about what you're doing now. We'll come back to maybe your experience with some of those courses that you were taking earlier. But tell us about the course corrector and what it is, what you guys do. You're working with Linda, obviously. I have immense respect for Linda. I think she's been on the podcast four times, maybe over the last seven years, whatever. So absolutely love her to death. But what are you guys doing in the course corrector?
- [06:06]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. So the course corrector is as it sounds. I'm one half of it. I do work with Linda Perry. She is also fun fact, my mother, which a lot of people go, what's it like working with your mom? And I absolutely love it. We have very similar brains, but we work completely differently. And I like to say we go in our separate caves when we work and come back together and always find the same conclusion. But what we really do is we dive into courses. And so what sets us apart is that we don't actually always work on the course creation process. While we welcome a bunch of course creators and can help them create their courses, I like to say, as preventative measure so they don't actually bump up into issues in the long run. We work with established course creators who have a course and their course has gone awry somewhere and they're not quite sure why. Maybe they have an idea. They can say, maybe my engagement isn't great, my completion rates are down. You know, I've looked at the numbers or maybe something isn't translating and they have an idea, but it's that big. Why? That becomes the mystery. And what we do is we actually have a six point framework. It's called course unironically. And we dive into a course and we actually look at it holistically and we pull apart the pieces that aren't working and actually help create this transformation for course creators that it's just hard to do by themselves because they know their material, they know their course, they created it. And sometimes you just need that second or third pair of. And so we provide that.
- [07:36]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I love what you guys are doing, especially as an owner of several courses. And I realize how difficult it can be, especially once you have it set up to then take a step back and say, okay, wait, do we have the right promise here? You know, and doing all of the things. So can we actually step through the course framework and talk about Each of the steps that you guys go through.
- [08:00]
Maya Stojkovich
Yes, I would absolutely love to. So we start with C, which is clear, identifiable goals. So we're gonna look at your course and we're gonna say, hey, do you have a clear goal? And usually it's that one goal for the course taker. So you're delivering something, you're promising a transformation. What does that look like? I also always love to, you know, mention, hey, you are in your course yourself. Please have some goals for yourself, for your course. That's always so important cuz so many people always get focused on the course taker. And I'm like, put yourself in your course. Which that also shows up later. And then we have.
- [08:33]
Rob Marsh
Oh, wait, let me, let me stop you. Right, let me. So I want to ask about that because that's actually really interesting. I mean, I would normally be thinking, okay, yeah, the big promise. And we've got to make sure that we deliver on this transformation. When you say we should have goals for ourselves, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about financial goals, enrollment goals, or is it more tied to the course content itself?
- [08:53]
Maya Stojkovich
I think it can be all, every. Both. I really don't think it's exclusive. I often find that with overarching course goals, you're really going to focus on engagement, how many people you want in your course, money, you know, what you're bringing in. And so that tends to be the focus. But can you focus on what do I want to get out of my course, content wise? Absolutely. That can be a goal.
- [09:18]
Rob Marsh
And maybe there's also some relationships that you're developing with students in a course. You know, there may be some things we can build goals around there too. Okay, let's. Okay, so. Oh, oh.
- [09:29]
Maya Stojkovich
Which is outcomes and pathways for success, which. This is my favorite part of our course framework because I love pathways. I think they're just the key to success for any course out there. Yeah, so that's o.
- [09:45]
Rob Marsh
So how should we be thinking about pathways? Is it simply. If I'm going to draw this out, I'm thinking, okay, module one leads to module two. That. I mean, that seems kind of basic. Is there more to it than that as far as, like, how the ideas string together?
- [10:00]
Maya Stojkovich
Absolutely. So I think that so many people look at pathways and they go, okay, I have A, B, C. I know where all these points are, I know what they lead to. And then it's this great transformation. But really looking at a pathway, it's not just that you actually have to create a pathway really intentionally. Because if you don't look at every element of the pathway and like, it's like A, and then you have like point one, point two, everything that goes in, in and under A to get to B, and then to get to C. You have to be very clear and very intentional of the content you're putting in, how you're creating this pathway, the story that you're crafting through your course. Otherwise people might fall off, people might start going down a different path. I really love the image of when creating a pathway, you are leading your course taker. So you're, you're the first. You're, you got your little backpack on your lamp, you're guiding them through this really dark, scary forest, but you know the way and they're trusting you to lead them. And so you don't want them going down and veering left when they're supposed to go right. So you want to really be intentional about how do you get from point A to point B to point C to point D to actually deliver that end result. So there's just a little bit more nuance in there.
- [11:14]
Rob Marsh
It feels like partly we're talking about a framework, but it's a little bit bigger than just having a framework to step through.
- [11:21]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. And this is where course goals become so important because you have to be very clear on those goals to actually create this narrative, that story, this pathway.
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Rob Marsh
Okay, you.
- [11:33]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, you. Which is your unique course proposition. We look at how you are in your course, how you're showing up, as well as just what makes your course stand out in this very saturated market. You know, everybody has a course. This isn't new, everyone knows it. But what makes yours unique and different in this market, in your niche, how do you separate yourself and sell yourself? Really? It's very fun to help course creators figure this out, because oftentimes it actually ends up being themselves, which they, they don't even know. They're just kind of compiling this course and they're like, huh, is really interesting. Lots of information. I'm like, yeah, but is it unique? And they're like, well, I don't know. And I'm like, where are you in your course? And then they go, oh, it's this really big light bulb moment for them. But it doesn't always have to be right. We have a boot camp and it's, it's our eight week program. And what we do with ours is it's not necessarily us that makes it unique. It's this transformation we're bringing. So how do you just make your course stand out in this market.
- [12:42]
Rob Marsh
Okay, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And may I should probably. Maybe I'm putting you on the spot here, but you kind of just said, like, what your unique transformation is as far as what you deliver. Some of the other courses that you've gone through. Like, for instance, I think you've worked with Justin Blackman. We've talked to Justin a ton on the podcast as well. What would you say is unique about his course?
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Maya Stojkovich
Oh, I mean, it's him.
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Rob Marsh
Okay.
- [13:07]
Maya Stojkovich
Him. I know it says, I told you. It ends up usually being people that themselves, but it also is what he's delivering. It's how he delivers his voice. Branding, voice guides. Right. Like, it's, it's, it's about him, his delivering. Because people love learning from Justin and I get why he is amazing at what he does, but he also delivers something so unique and just twists it a little bit. It doesn't have to be very dramatic. Right. You don't need to be 5 million steps ahead of everyone else. You just need to have one little twist that makes you unique. And that's what he has, and that's why it makes his courses so exceptional.
- [13:44]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
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Maya Stojkovich
Okay, next step is r. Realistic milestones and action steps. And so this leads from pathways. You're really going to need to have those milestones, those action steps. They have to be, you know, relevant, realistic, applicable, and you want to have them as that support. This is also really going to help. So a little, you know, it's going to help with E, which is engagement. It's like a little heads up. But this really helps keep your course takers engaged. And when you actually implement those milestones and those action steps, you're keeping your course takers on that path. So it's, it's incredibly important.
- [14:21]
Rob Marsh
So let's give some examples of what milestones could be. So, for instance, in our accelerator course, we have blueprints that, you know, we, we step through so that people can complete those. They turn them in. Does that count as a milestone or is action steps or is it beyond that?
- [14:36]
Maya Stojkovich
Absolutely, that does count as it. I love to think of, you know, it doesn't have to be so overthought. It can be homework assignments, which I know, you know, everyone dreads. We're, we're adults. We don't go to school anymore. We don't have homework. But really it can be homework assignments. It can be something as small as taking a poll or, you know, asking people to communicate in your community. That you've built, it really is just as small as checking in and making sure they're still there. Because when you implement these milestones and these action steps, if someone's not completing them or if someone isn't engaged, you can tell and then you actually have the ability to course correct.
- [15:19]
Rob Marsh
Right. Okay, so S is solid content.
- [15:24]
Maya Stojkovich
So content, you know, it's, it's what you compile into your course, it's everything that you bring. It's how you make your course happen. It's the transformation, it's, it's all your knowledge. Right. The issues that we see usually in here is that everyone knows their stuff, course creators know their stuff. You come with so much expertise and so much knowledge. You've done your research, but your course taker isn't there yet. And so we see a lot of information dumping, we see a lot of, you know, higher level information being thrown in and not actually made into these bite sized pieces. So it's really just engaging with your content a little bit differently and it's taking a holistic look at your content in terms of everything we've talked about thus far. You know, you have the goal, you have the pathway, you have your unique course proposition. Does your content actually filter through all of these different aspects and deliver in your course?
- [16:22]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Curse of knowledge seems to be something that could impact a lot of course creators because we do assume that people are at a level that we're communicating at. And so this feels like it isn't, but it feels like dumbing things down sometimes in a way to be able to engage at a lower level of expertise and, and delivering that information, which is not easy for anybody, I think.
- [16:49]
Maya Stojkovich
No, it's not. And it's one of those things of how do you actually take a step back and recognize, okay, this is where my course takers at, how do I get them to where I want them to be, how do I get them to that expert level? And so it might seem like dumbing it down, but really again, it's just engaging with your content differently and actually engag with your audience. And that's why it's so important to know who your audience is and also root yourself and goal wise for your course in your audience as well. Because yes, it is about you, but it is also about delivering something to them. And so you almost have to like remove the ego and remove the self from the content.
- [17:27]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, maybe a better way of, for me thinking about this is that rather than dumbing it down, you're basically providing a ladder that Starts at the bottom and helps people step up to where you are and ultimately delivers the promise.
- [17:38]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, that's beautiful.
- [17:39]
Rob Marsh
Well, maybe I should be a course corrector. I don't know.
- [17:41]
Maya Stojkovich
Maybe.
- [17:43]
Rob Marsh
And EU teased is engagement.
- [17:45]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah. So you got engagement and ongoing investment. So we look at the engagement throughout the course. Again, this is another big one. Oftentimes in courses, engagement gets lowered and you don't know why. And so we look at why, and we are able to diagnose and figure out why. You know, it happens to be all of the issues that we've mentioned thus far. So you get to actually look at your course a little bit differently. And then we look at ongoing investment. We want to see if your course takers are buying into you and your services and continuing on, because you almost want to leave them with that little cliffhanger and say, hey, you can learn more, and do they bite? So that's what we look at.
- [18:24]
Rob Marsh
Okay, so a lot of our listeners are just copywriters, content writers. Maybe they write for core script creators, maybe they don't. But it feels to me also that this course framework is. Is, in a way, it's like a sales framework. It's a way to get somebody from, you know, wherever they are right now to making an investment and then. And then actually, like, purchasing something, you know, towards the end. Am I misreading that?
- [18:52]
Maya Stojkovich
No, no. You know, you're not. I mean, it really is. You never want to forget that you're always selling something. Your course is meant to help provide for you and your business. Your course is meant to be this additive to this funnel. Right. Like, I never want to shy away from that, because a lot of people see course as this, like, unique kind of standalone thing, or maybe they think it leads into something else. But this is where you do have to be really clear about it, because you are selling something. And so you do have to almost pitch and sell even while you're still doing the course. And so it does actually end up sounding a lot like, you know, sales. And it definitely relates to what your copywriters are doing. And I think it actually makes it a little bit more manageable when you start to think of it that way, rather than viewing this course, because so many people get overwhelmed in course creation, and then when their course fails, it's like they spiral and they don't know what's going wrong, and they sit there and then they beat themselves up. And then. Or if you're writing for courses too, it's. It's. How do you prevent that for a course creator. And when you actually just start to look at it as, you know, I'm engaging with people and I'm getting them hooked and I'm bringing them in, and then I'm leading them through this funnel that is the course itself. I think it makes it a lot more pleasant to deal with.
- [20:07]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so that's the course corrector. I want to. We may come back to some of this stuff, but I would love to just get your thoughts about the course industry itself, because I think a lot of people with courses saw this, you know, golden year or two during the pandemic where everybody was learning online, everybody was investing in that, and then the last two years has become significantly more difficult for most, not all. There are still a few people who are really selling well, but a lot of course owners have. Have really struggled. So what's. What's going on? What's causing all that?
- [20:41]
Maya Stojkovich
I know. I think this is such a great question, and I love talking about this because, you know, we saw it as like, the golden years. Isn't also Covid too, right? Covid happened. We were all stuck indoors. Everyone was like, we need community, we need to learn. And then there were courses. And so the online elearning market boosted up. Here's the thing with it. It's still growing. And so I don't want people to lose hope because it is growing. So, like, by 2030, it's supposed to be 687 billion, like, more in revenue. And I just think that that's. That's a really positive statistic. You know, on the other hand, though, you also have another statistic that says about 95% of courses fail. And so I challenge it by looking and saying, you know, I don't actually think there's an issue with courses and people buying courses in of itself. I really think there's an issue with the quality of courses and also how you set yourself apart and sell in this market that is very saturated. You know, I don't shy away from that. We don't shy away from that. The course corrector at all. There are a lot of courses. I just think that there are a lot of courses that get thrown together with all these hopes, these dreams of more time, more money, more freedom, give back to me and my business, and then they fall apart, and then shame spirals happen, or you have course takers that end up falling apart and also have shame spirals happening. So it's just like a lot of collective negative mindset issues that end up coming to Play and then really impacting these courses again, 95% fail. I think that that is such a glaring statistic that really shows it's not necessarily the course market that's an issue. It's just how we're interacting with our courses. And that doesn't make us wrong or bad, it's just looking at it differently. Because here's the thing, we're not all stuck indoors anymore. It's not Covid. But how do you cultivate community and really boost up your course and tell a story with it and make it impactful so people clamor for it, so they actually want it. Right. And, and you know, we're also in a time and an age where people want community more than ever. People want to connect more than ever. And it's like we're all somehow isolated. We have social media, we don't know necessarily how to interact with people anymore. We want that connection, that like face to face connection. And courses actually do provide that. So if you set yourself apart with your course, I really think, you know, it's why we think of those names, the big names that can still sell. Right?
- [23:20]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that makes sense. I want to ask you about this statistic, you know, this 95% course of scale. And maybe I have a slightly different take on it too, but is that a measurement of just completion or like, are there other ways of looking at that?
- [23:35]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, there are definitely other ways of looking at that. So we like to look at completion rates. I always say that it doesn't show the full picture though, because you can have 95% completion rates and still no one's actually applying your content. Linda and I are actually talking about this on our podcast too because we just think it's such a glaring issue because everyone looks at completion rates and they're like, well, it's doing great or it's doing poor, but it doesn't actually measure how your course takers are doing. I think it also, you know, you have to look at engagement. Where are they dropping out? How many are dropping out? What does that look like? Your content? Is it being applied to your course takers lives actually? Like, are you really delivering that transformation? So there's a bunch of different ways you have the ability to measure course success, which is also probably why, you know, you look at a statistic and it's so big, it's like 95%. Right. And I also think that likes to point out, you know, there's, there's an issue in every course. And while it might be minor and not Causing a big problem. There are issues and they're continuously popping up. So how do you. Correct. How do you deal with it? Because, you know, I hear so many people also saying, I had to rerecord 10 hours in my course. And I'm like, then you're not. There's something, there's something wrong. It's not you. And let's, let's figure it out. Let's actually dive in and, you know, address these issues. Because it's, it's, it's holistic. It's not just like one glaring issue. It's not just completion rates. Right.
- [25:04]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I, I look at it too and think, you know, I. For, for example, so one of the modules in our accelerator course deals with processes, another one, you know, with packages. And I think from time to time, people will actually join our course having different pieces of their business figured out, but maybe they don't have processes in place. And so when they get to that module, they use it, they fix the problem. And maybe, maybe that's what they were there for. And they don't really care about the branding module that's coming, you know, later. Maybe they've sort of, they're okay with what they're doing. And so I feel like sometimes that number gets in the way. And that comes back to, I think, what you were saying as far as, like, these results and these outcomes. Sometimes we have this huge promise at the beginning of a course, but what people really need is maybe one of those steps along the way that get them to that, that big promise. I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking about that wrong. But.
- [25:57]
Maya Stojkovich
No, I mean, what I just kind of was thinking about, as you said, that is, you know, this is all just information, Linda. And I always say what you're looking at is just data. Like, I think it's so important to look at it that way because you can see people drop out right after, after that one module. People are like, I got what I'm here for and I'm done and I'm out. You can look at that and be like, oh, that is so disappointing. Why didn't they stay the whole time? They just invested. Like, this is, you know, this is great stuff. I know what I'm offering is amazing. And they're just, they're just telling you something. Maybe that means you need to, like, break it apart. Maybe that means you, you need a whole separate course on just that to engage those buyers differently. It's really just data, and it's allowing you to take the temperature of your course. So you have the ability to course correct and make those changes where it's needed. It's not, you know, I'm bad, I'm terrible, or I have this amazing thing and they don't want it. What's wrong with them? Because there's so many stories we tell ourselves and can tell ourselves about our courses. I've seen it in so many course creators and, you know, as a course taker myself who has dropped out of a course before, you sit there and stories, all the stories, but really it's just data. It's saying, where am I not meeting certain expectations or where is my course falling apart? Or what are they telling me? So I can just do this a little bit differently. It's nothing, you know, it's all fixable, which I think is great.
- [27:25]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that makes sense. So let's say I'm listening and I've been thinking about, you know, I'm a successful copywriter. I've been thinking about creating a course for some of the people in my niche. Maybe it's, you know, how do you write emails for, you know, this industry or something like that? And I want to get started. Do you have advice for somebody beyond that framework, you know, where it's like, okay, I'm sitting down, I'm going to create my course. What are maybe one or two, maybe three things that I should be doing to make sure that that first launch is going to go okay? And obviously it doesn't. I'm going to come and join the course creator to figure it all out. But I want to start with a really good foundation.
- [28:04]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. I think that one thing to really set yourself up for success is compiling. And this sounds so silly, but compiling everything you want to say, I think, you know, this, this goes along with the content piece, but it's, it's more than that. It's really saying, I have this brilliant idea now what? And I really think that starts with compiling your knowledge base. I don't think there's a better place to start because then you can actually sift out, you know, if it is about writing emails, making better emails, whatever it is, you then actually have a whole process in front of you and then you can pick and choose what's the most important and that's actually going to set you up for success. And I also think, you know, taking the time to really envision what do you want out of this course? What are your hopes, dreams, aspirations? And I know that that sounds kind of woo woo, but I really think that's important to actually sit and engage with yourself so you know, what might come up for you mindset wise or what might come up for you in terms of, you know, getting stuck on something, some hopes, some dreams, and again, not then being able to collect that data. I really think those are two big things. It's like just compiling your knowledge base and putting it in front of you so you know where you're going, what you're doing, and also just, you know, taking a second to say, what do I really want out of this?
- [29:30]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that, that's all good advice. You talked a little bit about in the engagement step, you know, things that we need to be doing to add community. There are a ton of courses out there that it's just, you log in, you see the video, you maybe get a transcript. That's it.
- [29:45]
Maya Stojkovich
That's it.
- [29:46]
Rob Marsh
There's. There's like no engagement with the course owner. Whatever. So can we talk about some of this stuff? How do we add this in?
- [29:53]
Maya Stojkovich
I love this. I know. You just got me. Someone got so excited.
- [29:55]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, you're a little excited right now.
- [29:57]
Maya Stojkovich
I love, I love this aspect because community is so vital and so important in a course. And even if they're not engaging with you, how can you just take a second to create a community, even if it's small? So that looks like having a place for them to comment and interact with each other. And I don't care if it's an evergreen course and there's a small comment section, it's been up for years. People can actually, like, engage and comment on other things that have been left and can see things. And I think that even in of itself creates just a small element of community or, you know, for bigger courses. Do you have that Slack channel? Do you have that Facebook group? Are people interacting with it? One thing I will always say about community is as the course creator, you have to take the first leap. That is vital. You have to take the first leap because everyone else is coming in thinking, well, I should already know this and why don't I know this? And I can't believe I'm having to take a course on this. And, oh, you know, and again, all these stories and no one wants to take the first leap. It's like, you know, if you're in a crowded room and someone asks for a comment and you're looking around and you're like, okay, who's going to say something first? It has to be you.
- [31:10]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, and what does that look like? Is that like, is that me, the course owner? I'm always putting in the first comment saying, hey, what do you think about this? Or is it even more outreach, like let's jump on a video call and you know, just chat for 10 minutes about what your goals are for, you know, for this. Like, I guess there's a million ways to do this.
- [31:28]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, there really are. And you know, there's not. Best thing about courses, it's not one size fits all right. And so it's, it's up to course creator preference. I like to say, you know, if you have an evergreen course and it's not something you're checking all the time and it's, it's there and you know, people are engaging and commenting, you can tell course takers to comment, you can say, hey, what's one thing you learned? What's one key takeaway? Or in a Slack channel, pose a question about this module that they're in and get them to think about it a little bit differently. Maybe help them get a little unstuck or just push them. Or if you do have maybe even a smaller course and have the ability to hop on those one on one calls right off the bat, do it. Because it allows them to start to filter through their thoughts and then actually engage in this process a little bit differently because then they have stake in the game. You know, you want your course takers to come in and actually invest themselves because again then they're going to continue to invest themselves in everything you have. And so it's, it's allowing them to come and really give themselves to this course. And that's why I say, you know, you have to be the first one. And it doesn't have to be this big step because I think also often course creators can get bogged down by their course. They can get exhausted, they can get burnt out, not just by their course, but also in work itself. And so how do you make it manageable? That's why it's also up to the course creator.
- [32:56]
Rob Marsh
One of the trends that I've seen happening in the course world is this move to like smaller workshops, you know, little thing, you know, like $27 masterclasses kind of a thing. Would you also recommend like engagement there as well where the investment isn't much? So maybe a course creator doesn't have a lot of time to put into it because again, the, you know, the money difference between a $27 course and a thousand or $2,000 course is pretty significant. Is that mostly just a place for comment section or would I do something different there?
- [33:29]
Maya Stojkovich
I Think. I think a comment section works fine for something with, you know, it's 27 and minimal engagement. And I think that's more. So you have to know where that workshop or you know, where, where it lands in your funnel. Almost like it's like, okay, is this going to lead into a course? Because maybe I have to do like a little bit more, but I don't have to do a ton, right? You know, you can have a comment section or you can have a Q A portion of it, right? Like you can have a place where you engage and then tell them what comes next. And, and it, that really is just engaging them that bit differently. It doesn't have to be dramatic, drastic. It doesn't have to be hopping on a one on one call, but it can also be saying, you know, you have my email. If you have a question, please reach out, I'm here, I love to talk. You know, it's. It's just that little extra step that allows them to feel more comfortable so that then maybe they can come into your course, that is the $1,000 course, and say, all right, I can do this. This is manageable. And I know that they have my back too, and that they'll actually deliver.
- [34:30]
Rob Marsh
I think what you said about the funnel is really important as well, because if this is the first step in the funnel and this is the first taste that somebody gets with engagement with you, you want to show them what engagement looks like at a higher level as well. So if you simply just ignore somebody with that $27 workshop, but your course has some really great engagement ideas or ways that you do that it feels like you're missing. Showing off what they would get. And so there's probably some strategy thinking through, like, how much do I really show off so that I can move them to the next step.
- [35:03]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is one thing that we do look at. We like to look at, you know, the before and the after too, when you work with us, because it tells you a lot. You know, where are you getting your course takers from? If you have a funnel and you say, okay, I have that $27 workshop and that leads into my course, like, you can start to think about that workshop a little bit differently and put in that little extra emphasis in there so you can bring them to your course. Because again, a lot of people think, you know, no one's buying in. Money is this big issue. People just want to connect. And if you give them a reason to buy in, I promise you they will, like, they really Will. And even if it takes just, like a little bit more time, they will. But they have to trust you first. It's human nature, right? Like, they want to know that they're actually going to get the results that they buy. Because how disappointing is it if, you know, they buy and they spend thousands of dollars and they don't get the results? Like, that hurts for the course taker and the course creator.
- [36:00]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that makes sense. Before we started recording, you said that you had started thinking a lot about storytelling and narrative and its place in courses. Talk a little bit about that because again, it feels like sometimes the modules are separate from each other and there's not necessarily a story that connects them. So what's your thinking there?
- [36:18]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, I actually love that we were just talking about workshops in this too, because this is. I was watching some workshops as lifelong learner over here, but that's where I started thinking about that piece. And I was like, huh? Like, what comes next is their course or their what their offer is? And I'm not sold by their workshop. Like, there isn't a story to it. And I think it's so impactful to think about storytelling in terms of what story is your business telling and what story is your course telling, especially your course to your audience that allows them to buy in beginning, middle, and not drop out, to actually stay the full way. It's like what I was talking about with, you know, education program coordinator position with. With the kids is how do you make them care? How do you make them interested? And that really is by storytelling. Because if I sat and I was leading a course and it's about, you know, courses like we have, and I'm like, hey, you know, it's really cool if you, like, set a goal and here's how, and here's all this information. Here's xyz. Okay, on your way. Do it. They're going to be like, this was so boring. Or, you know, or if I have one module that's packed full of stories and it seems really cool, but then they don't know how to apply it, I've lost them. So it's not just, you know, in one module, because you're right. There's module one, module two, module three. You offer all these elements. How do you combine them all together and really craft this beautiful story for the course taker? So they know their why, they know their objective, and they know the how. And I think those elements really get told through story to actually just engage people a little bit differently because they've bought into the information you're selling. There's a reason they bought your course. They said, hey, I see what you're offering has value. I want this end goal transformation. I know I'm going to get it through XYZ information. You know, a lot of people on their websites have, here's what you're going to get out of module one, module two, like they, they know what they're signing up for. But how do you make it interesting? Like, right. This is also where unique course proposition comes in. How do you insert yourself? How do you insert case studies, personal examples, you know, think about personal anecdotes. They work wonderful. And I'm not even just talking about like the success stories either. Tell your failures. Don't be afraid to like show yourself and, and show case studies and in an honest raw light because everyone's coming in with their humanness and they just want to learn and get that transformation. But they need that extra umph. And I think storytelling is a wonderful way to do that in your course.
- [38:56]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that's got me thinking about ways that I need to add more stories into a couple things that I've been working on.
- [39:03]
Maya Stojkovich
So that's usually does.
- [39:05]
Rob Marsh
So let's shift a little bit and because you're a mindset coach, let's talk a little bit about the mindset that it takes to be a successful coach, course runner, course owner. Because it's not quite the same as running a copywriting business where you're working one on one with clients. Talk a little bit about that and what it requires.
- [39:28]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, working one on one with clients, you actually have the ability to engage with them a little bit differently in an. You go from one to one to one to many and then you go, whoa, what is coming up for me? And you know, I've seen it so many times. Like really I've, I've landed in the stories we tell ourselves because you have no idea what is going to come up for you in your course until you run your course. And I think that is why like, we personally love working with course creators who have an established course and we love correcting it because so much mindset comes up and it's not just for the course creator.
- [40:02]
Rob Marsh
Right.
- [40:03]
Maya Stojkovich
It's also for the course taker. But I'm always just so astounded by the shame spirals that people can go into when even one small thing goes wrong with their course. So say you have lowered, lowered engagement right in the middle. Right. That's where a lot of drop off tends to happen in the course. Course creators then look at themselves in such a critical lens and they go, what is wrong with me? What am I not doing? What is wrong? How did. How did I let this happen? And then it just spirals and spirals. And then they actually aren't able to, you know, address the issues from a nice, secure, happy little spot that they were when they were creating their course and building it. So super excited. And then it causes burnout. I mean, I can't even tell you how many course creators have come to us and been like, I'm exhausted by my own material. And I'm like, it's a shame spiral. It's mindset, I promise. And it was like, oh, why? You know, really Mindset? Are we sure? It's like, yes, I promise you it's mindset. But that's because, you know, course creators don't always come prepped from that one to one to one to many being like, okay, I know what's going to come up for me. I know that it's going to make me feel xyz, and so here's what I'm going to implement. But it's also why I encourage really delving into, like, mindset when it comes to your course, because then you're actually able to build in those buffers because then when you see people drop out, you can actually look and go, okay, I know this doesn't have anything to do with me, what's happening for my course taker at this point, because it actually takes you out of the self. Then at that point feels like there's.
- [41:35]
Rob Marsh
Almost an opposite opportunity too. Although the opposite may not want to actually come to you for help, but somebody who's such the expert, I know this stuff better than anyone else. I don't need to change it. This is the way I learned it. Everybody else can learn it the same way, which could lead to failures as well. Again, that person's probably not saying, well, Maya and Linda can help me fix this because they know everything. But maybe there's some of that going on too, right?
- [42:01]
Maya Stojkovich
No, definitely it does come up. I mean, I also, you know, course creators, they know their stuff. Like, y'all know your stuff. I always said this, like, they come as an expert and they come with this knowledge base. But then that makes it so hard to, like, work on the issues almost, because it's like, you get stuck.
- [42:22]
Rob Marsh
How about money Mindset? I think there's a lot of anxiety around pricing courses, and I've even seen, again, because of the change in the market sometimes People have lowered prices to try to make a course more appealing. Other people actually have raised prices in response. So what do you say about that kind of an issue?
- [42:44]
Maya Stojkovich
I mean, oftentimes I see people actually lower their prices. Please don't do that. Like, I mean it's value your course at what you think to be true. You know how much work you put into your course, you know what people are getting out of your course. Price it and don't be afraid. I really think that that's so important because yes, money mindset comes in and, and I can tell you go look at your self worth, like how's that showing up, all that. But really it's one of those things where you know what you did, you know how much effort is in your course. Please don't lower it just because you're not seeing people come in. Please. Maybe like just go look at other areas. Like how's your list doing? That's always a question I love to ask because are you drawing in the right people? Because the right people will buy in when they know what you're selling is important and they know they need it. And so I really around money mindset, I always ask horse creators, please don't lower the pricing. And also if you're hiking up the pricing and it's not quite right and it's super high and then you're getting people buying in, what you're also then going to see is a lot of dissatisfied customers by the end of it. And that's just like a little cautionary tale of hey, if you do raise it too high, here's a great way to tell is that by the end of it people are going, I didn't quite get what I thought I was going to get and I spent a lot of money and then you're going to get not so great feedback. And the reason that that's so important is because, you know, word of mouth does exist. These people are in your space. If they're coming to you, they're in your space. And you know, you also don't want negative feedback on your course. Of course is a part of your business. It's, you know, you put a lot into your course. So I think there is a, there's a nice mindset when it comes to money because you never want to price it too low, but then you don't want to price it too high. So it's, I think it's just really being able to critically look at your course and say, okay, how much is what I'm offering Worth. And then you can also play around with it. Like, that's. That's another thing is, is you don't have to stay rigid in your mindset around money. Right. Like, you can play around with it, like, are more people buying in at this rate? What does it look like at the end? And, you know, or are they not? And maybe why. And then let's get some, you know, feedback from the people that have been in my course and paid for it. So I just think that that' a great way to measure some of that and reduce some of that mindset around money.
- [45:10]
Rob Marsh
So most of what we've been talking about so far really is applicable to course owners, but all of us are also, you know, on the other side as learners from time to time. So I wonder if you've got advice for learners who may be in a course that isn't perfect, you know, there. So maybe this is you going back to your experience with our course, which I still think is perfect. You know, the engagement issue may have been different. I don't know. No joking a little bit. But, like, what advice do you have for that learner who is maybe not quite feeling it? You know, what can they do to ensure that they're actually getting the value out of a course that, you know, that obviously they bought it, they want. They want the transformation, they want the result, but they're somehow. They're getting stuck.
- [45:58]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah. You know, I think that it's really important to vocalize some of those issues as a course taker who has had mindset issues come up and dropped out and also, you know, strung along through a course by, like, tooth and nail, you know, just sitting there like, okay, I'm gonna get through this. It's one of those things that when you vocalize, it actually reduces the shame that you're feeling and kind of the pressure of it all, because then you actually have the ability to go to someone who just genuinely wants to help. I mean, you know, this has been a lot about the course creator, but something about course creators is they. They're offering this because they really want to help people. Ultimately, they want to impact people. That's why courses get created in the first place. And so if you're the course taker and you're sitting there going, I, I just spent money and I'm not seeing what I want to be seeing. And I'm feeling really upset about this. Reach out, like, ask for the help. Because you know that. And that's always the scariest thing to do.
- [46:57]
Rob Marsh
Right.
- [46:58]
Maya Stojkovich
Is actually asking for the help and then having to admit it. But I really think it is the best thing you can do. It's almost like the antidote is just vocalizing where you're at. Because there's no shame in falling behind in a course. There's no shame in saying, you know what, I'm not getting what I want out of it, but how can I problem solve? It's like again, that shift, it's just this little mindset shift that comes with just saying, you know what, I actually do need some help or I need some direction or maybe this isn't right for me, but I want to talk with the course creator and actually see what's going wrong.
- [47:29]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, all of, I, I underscore all of that. I think it's really important to, you know, raise your hand, get that engagement because you're right, you know, especially if you're past that refund stage or whatever, you know, it's like you still ought to get your money's worth. And if it takes a little effort, I've had people tell me occasionally, well, I, I'm afraid I don't want to ask for too much. To which I've always responded, you keep asking and I'll let you know when it's too much. Because like you said, but you know, I want to make sure that people get the transformation that they're promised out of any course that they, that they would take from us. So hopefully anybody listening who's in that kind of a situation will do that and ask for more so that they can actually get, get that result. So Maya, what's next for you and Linda, what's next for the course creator? Where are you guys going from here?
- [48:17]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. So I've been kind of talking about it through like little, little hints through is we have a bootcamp that we're launching actually, so you guys can go to our website@thecoursecorrector.com and we have an eight week bootcamp that's super hands on and we're really excited about it and it's gonna help course creators actually dive into their courses. And, you know, it's really meta because we have a course about correcting courses, but really dive in and actually like, you know, see what's going wrong. And it's through our course framework and you then have the ability to actually take apart your course and put it back together and, you know, have a fully functional running course that actually gives back to your business, like, you know, those promises that you're guaranteed.
- [48:58]
Rob Marsh
So, okay, so we Definitely can check that out atthecourse corrector.com. where else should people go to follow you, Maya?
- [49:05]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, absolutely. So another spot on our website. You know we also have a self audit if you're not quite sure where your course is going awry. But we also are on Instagram and LinkedIn so I know that all of that's going to be linked as well. And we have a face Facebook so we're really accessible. And if you ever want to hop on a call, we're more than welcome. You know we love talking courses. Clearly.
- [49:26]
Rob Marsh
So amazing. Yeah. Well, I may even call you back. We'll see. Talk about my courses. Yeah, no, I, I mean I love, you know, I love Linda again. I know I'm saying this a second time, but I respect everything that she has done. She's an amazing human being and a great educator. I love what you guys are doing together. So if you're listening to this and you've got a course and it's not quite right, reach out because Linda and Maya can definitely help. And thanks Maya for spending so much time with us today.
- [49:58]
Maya Stojkovich
Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me on.
- [50:03]
Rob Marsh
Thanks to Maya for sharing her process for fixing courses, fixing our mindsets, and finding community in the programs that we either run or we we help our clients to sell. If you write for coaches, membership owners or course creators, what Maya shared should help you as you work with these clients to improve the way that you talk about the results that they deliver. Be sure to connect with Maya on LinkedIn and check out the course creator.com where you can get more details about that program, learn the basics when you join their email list and a lot more. Maya and Linda are worth following even if you don't have have a course of your own. So be sure to check them out. As I said when I introduced Maya, the course framework is similar to the framework that you might use crafting any sales message, starting with the big promise, the clear goals that you have for your readers, and going all the way through engagement and keeping your readers interested in all the information that you have to share. So as you think about this, maybe there's parts of that framework that might help you improve your copywriting and your sales messaging. Think about that. We briefly mentioned that Maya was a student in our own copywriter accelerator program when she was just starting out as a copywriter, before the course corrector was a thing. If you are interested in checking that program out, you can see the details at the copywriterclub.com forward slash, fasttrack fasttrack is all one word a year or so. After we created that program, we had a curriculum specialist go through the content, do much the same thing that Maya and Linda do, identifying what was missing and what we needed to add in order to make it better. And the result that you get today includes all of the building blocks for a successful copywriting business. The list of students that went through that program and today have successful, often six figure businesses might surprise you. It includes copywriters like Shanti Zach, well known for her quizzes, the Voice Guy, Justin Blackman, Brittany McBean, who's written and and sold courses of her own on building a six figure business, Macaulay Zeke, who's got one of the the best websites I've ever seen for a copywriter, has done amazingly in her own business as well, working with tech companies and a variety of other writers that she's coached to success. Others include Zafira Rajan, Kirsty Fanton and literally hundreds of others. You can see why they joined and what they learned at the copywriter club.com forward/fast track that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone that you know. Or if you don't know anyone, you can always just leave a review at Apple Podcasts, at Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Really appreciate you for listening. Thank you and we'll see you next week.
- [52:53]
Maya Stojkovich
Copywriters coming together to help the world write better copy and make more money. Kira and Ross Copyrighters Club can make you lots of money. Listen to Akira and robs copyright is Club can make you lots of money as long as you listen through the whole damn episode.
- [53:27]
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