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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #427: Mastering Copywriting with Jason Rutkowski
01:01:49
Becoming a great copywriter is not easy. But there are things you can do that 99% of other writers will not invest the time to accomplish. In the 427th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we talked with copywriter Jason Rutkowski about the process ...
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- [00:00]
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- [00:35]
Kira Hug
It'S the holidays and if this year is like most of our past years, that means that fewer of you, our regular listeners, are tuning in for this episode and probably for next week's episode as well. So instead of bringing on a new guest that you won't have the opportunity to listen to and learn from, I've come back into the archive to uncover an excellent old old episode that you probably missed. And if you did hear it way back when it aired a few years ago, you've probably forgotten a lot of the information that it contains. Honestly, this is one of the best interviews about mastery and the process of becoming an in demand copywriter that we've ever done. The guest for the episode is Jason Rutkowski. At the time we interviewed Jason, he was writing for some of the top financial and health clients in the copywriting world and working with a couple of different A list copywriters as as an assistant as a junior writer and learning from them. So he's got a lot of great, timeless advice. On this episode, you're also going to hear Kira. Longtime listeners know that Kira's co founder of the Copywriter Club and until the middle of this year she was my co host for the Copywriter Club podcast. Some of you have been asking where she's gone. Earlier this year, Kira shared with me that after seven years of building the Copywriter Club that she was interested in pursuing a couple of other challenges. So while she's still officially a partner behind the scenes, she hasn't been actively involved in the podcast or our other programs for about the last six months. Everything's fine. There wasn't any messy breakup and who knows, if the right opportunity presents itself, we may work on something together again in the future. We'll see. So while you're going to hear Kira's voice on this episode, she is definitely working on other stuff. For now, just enjoy the interview that we have here together. One more thing before we get into this interview. You've heard me talking about the Copywriter Accelerator fast track and that in coming weeks that it's going to be retired forever. This is the proven business building program that's been used by hundreds of copywriters to start and grow their businesses. Many have used it to create six figure businesses. Some have even earned seven figures since completing the program. And I know that it will work for you too, regardless of what your financial or other goals are when it comes to building a copywriting business. But time is running out to get the strategies, insights and ideas that we share in this business building program. So go to the copywriter club.com/fasttrack to learn more now. And if it's a fit for you, join so that you can build a successful copywriting business for yourself. And now enjoy this throwback interview with Jason Rakowski.
- [03:23]
Rob Marsh
Hey, Jason.
- [03:24]
Jason Rutkowski
Welcome, Jason.
- [03:25]
Kira Hug
Hey, Kyro. Hey, Rob.
- [03:27]
Jason Rutkowski
How's it going? Glad you're here finally.
- [03:29]
Kira Hug
Oh, no, I'm excited. I haven't, haven't done one of these in a while, so I always decided to do it with you.
- [03:35]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, it definitely took a little time to get our schedules aligned. We've been trying to make this happen for a little while because, you know, we know a little bit about you and you know what you know and where you write. And we think it'll be a great conversation. So we're glad to have you here.
- [03:49]
Kira Hug
Yeah, definitely.
- [03:50]
Jason Rutkowski
All right, so let's kick this off. Jason, how did you end up as a copywriter?
- [03:55]
Kira Hug
Okay, I'll give you the quick story about this. I was 19. I just finished my freshman year of college. I got an internship at a normal 9 to 5 job. And I realized I hated it. I was like, oh, man. I saw all these people who worked in an office 30, 40 years. I'm like, is this really going to be my life? And also, at the same exact time, I was on the Internet one day and I found an Internet marketing forum. And I was like, what's an Internet marketing forum? I don't know. So I go on it and I see all these guys. I'm like, yeah, I just made 200 grand this year, 500 grand this year. I work from home. I'm sitting at my desk all day. I'm like, what? I was like, how is that even possible? So I started getting really into it. And then I, you know, learned about traffic drivers and marketing and product creation and all these things. And I was really confused. I was like 19, 20 years old. So I heard about copywriting, but I didn't decide to be a freelance copywriter right away. I was like, you know what? I'm going to do. I'm going to create my own products, I'm going to do Google AdWords, I'm going to drive traffic, I'm going to do the whole thing like from start to finish. And I horribly failed for like I was going to school full time and then I was doing this part time and I was just failing and failing. And then after a couple years of that, I decided I'm like, okay, this isn't working. I'm just going to do copywriting because I think this is what I like most. I don't like doing all this other technical stuff, marketing stuff. I'm just going to do copywriting. So yeah, from then on out I just picked a niche. I was like, I'll just write in health. And from then on out I just started growing my business.
- [05:34]
Rob Marsh
So I'm interested in what some of those failures look like. What were the products that you were creating and why were they failing?
- [05:41]
Kira Hug
Oh, I mean the why is a lot of reasons. The products I was creating I created kind of an. Ebooks were a big thing back then. Back then you could just write an ebook and sell it and people would buy it. So I created one for anxiety, which I actually went through a lot in the beginning of my life and also created a few for some like headache solutions and like, kind of like different health things. And I put, you know, I don't know, these 150, 200 page books together, which is some random info that I thought was good. But then the whole process of, you know, I was trying to do organic SEO, trying to target the right keywords, trying to drive. I had, you know, I was, I was in college so I had very little money to actually spend on driving traffic, paid traffic. And I was just doing a lot of things wrong. It was just like there's a lot of little small marketing things that you don't know going into it. Like, you know, how to do the SEO right, how to do the traffic right, how to do the delivery right, how to build your list, like doing a lot of bad stuff. With building my list just like a lot of mistakes where it's just like I was just some teenage kid and I didn't know what I was doing. But I did learn a lot. And I also learned through the process that, you know, what I really like doing the most was the copywriting. So I just decided to give up the whole build my own business thing and do the copywriting thing instead.
- [07:05]
Rob Marsh
So what did that look like in the first stages? How did you connect with your first client? And why did you choose the niche that you chose?
- [07:11]
Kira Hug
Oh, well, back then that was me doing my own stuff in terms of the freelance copywriting. I started on the freelance websites, which I don't know if is a good way to do it anymore. But it was like these cheap little jobs on Free Elance and Guru and Oda and I don't even know if that stuff was even worth it. I mean, I guess it paid me some money and it gave me some actual samples I could send to people, but I didn't really get any good long term clients out of that. I didn't start getting good long term clients until I decided and it took me way too long to figure this out. But to actually go to live events and like talk with people and like talking to people.
- [07:52]
Jason Rutkowski
What's up?
- [07:53]
Kira Hug
Yeah, I know, I know. I literally spent like three, my first three years copywriting, trying to do everything from my room, like cold calling edesk olance, like cheap little. I mean, I don't know. And I was like, I was making so little money from it. I had like a 9 to 5 office job to support myself and then I would come home and do this right. I wasn't even close to making enough money to support myself. So I decided I was like, okay, the only way this is going to work is if I start going to live events. So I'm like, okay, what live events should I go to? Which ones are good? What's some high quality live events I could go to? And the first one I ever went to was a KLAIN and Makepeace $5,000 seminar. And I did not have $5,000, by the way, but I did have good credit. So I put out my credit card and actually did. Actually, one thing I always thank my mom for is she got me a credit card at 18 and she taught me how to use it. And by the time I was in like my early to mid-20s, I had like a credit card with like a $25,000 limit on it. And that was complete. That was like completely, you know, I had no. I know. But I had no debt. Like it was unused. So I decided to be a little risky and go to this clean and make peace seminar, which ended up being the absolute best decision of my life because I met my mentor Paris on Propolis, I met Marcel Allison and I met Paul Martinez, all at the same conference, who are all very, very good friends to this day. And yeah, then after that it was a matter of just. I mean, I don't know when I talk face to face with people. I. I feel like all my failures from early in my career gave me a kind of a big foundation to talk about where it's like, okay, this person clearly has, you know, has done the studying, has, you know, has been in the trenches, has done some work. I haven't had a lot of success, but at least, like, this kid just needs a chance, or this kid, you know, he's. He's not a newbie. So I can trust this guy to some extent. And then from then on out, it was just kind of going to more conferences, building my freelance career, and, you know, kind of trying to develop some long term relationships with people and that type of thing. So that's how I did it.
- [10:07]
Jason Rutkowski
Okay, this is exciting. So we're going to talk more about, you know, coming with Paris and some of these relationships you've built. But it sounds like this first event, this Clayton Makepeace event was like the first big event that you invested in. That's a big deal. And how did you even find the right event? And like, how did you even get over all of your hesitations and probably your own objections around spending $5,000 on an event that may not pay off? Especially when you're still figuring that out and you didn't know that you would build a relationship with Paris and meet Paul. What did you have to go through to make that investment?
- [10:46]
Kira Hug
Okay, so I think the most important thing about going to any event is, like, having a plan. Like, you should have a plan. Like, you should, like, know who's going to be there, who you're going to talk to, and what you want out of the event 100%. So when I went, I was like, okay, here's what actually happened. So before the event, I'm like, okay, I'm trying to do this freelance copywriting thing. I'm on these, like, freelance websites. I'm making, like, no money. I have, like, no relationship and no reputation with, like, any of these big names in the industry. I was like, so what's the fastest, best way to both build my reputation and what's a better way to get better results to increase my skill level? And I started researching and I noticed all these top A list copywriters were trained by other A list copywriters. So it's like, okay, John Carlton was trained by Gary Halbert and Jim Rutz. Paris was trained by Clayton. Carlin Cole was trained by Clayton. Like, there's this whole, like, David Deutsch was trained by Jim Rutz. Like, there's, there's like, this whole succession of, like, mentors and apprentices and, like, learning from people who are way smarter than you. And I was like, okay, that's what I need. And this was kind of back in the day, way before communities, like, you know, kind of like the Copywriters Club, like, before, like these, like, select. You know, back in the day, it was just like, you know, these Internet marketing forums where it's just like thousands and thousands of people who didn't know what they were talking about and, like, these Facebook groups that, like, don't know what they're talking about. And. And it's just like, there wasn't really a lot of, like, high quality places you can really go to. So I was like, okay, I need to find a mentor. I was like, okay, I'm in the health niche. Who's, like, the top health niche mentor that I know that that trains copycubs. I go, oh, Paris Sympropolis. And this is 100% true. I was like, okay, I need to find Paris. How can I. How can I contact him? I was like, well, he has a LinkedIn and a Facebook. And I'm like, that's not going to work. Like, you can't really form a relationship by sending somebody a Facebook message, right? And people try to do this with Paris all the time. They try to send them, like a LinkedIn message, like, hey, hey, Paris, can you be my mentor? And, you know, I was like, that's not. That's not gonna work. So it's like, okay, I got. I gotta meet Paris and I gotta meet other people too. But I especially wanted to meet him. So I was like, okay, where is he going to be? And then all of a sudden I was like, who does big copywriting seminars and programs on, like, awai? Which I was never really a part of. I never really went through AWA's training program. I never did any of that stuff. So I went on their website and they have a live event page. I went to that, and they're like, oh, in two months, Clayton is having this $5,000 seminar. I was like, okay, that's interesting. I love Clayton McBees, who's on the guest list. And then on the guest list was Parisant Propolis. I was like, oh, perfect. I'll pay $5,000 and I'll go to the seminar, right? And I'll meet him there. But here's the question is. So my goal, one of my goals was him to get him to be my mentor, but there's no way you're going to do that. Just from meeting him at one seminar. Right. You're not just going to talk to somebody at a bar and be like, hey, want to enter into the seven, five, seven year relationship with me? That's not going to work. So I did what I always tell people to do when they go to seminars. You have to focus on like making friends and developing relationships and getting people to like you. And I was like, and the best way to do that, in my opinion. And I used to do this, and I still kind of do this to this day. Before every seminar. I read the book how to win friends and influence people. Two times. I read it two times. And there's this section in the book called six ways to make people like you. And it is like gold. It is like if you just follow those exact six things. Like, just follow it. Like, don't even question it, just follow. And it's like simple stuff. It's like talk in terms of the other person's interests, make people feel important, remember their name, you know, it's like, ask them questions about. It's like the most basic stuff that people don't do. Like, most people go to seminars and then they do one or two things. They don't talk. They're super shy and they don't. Which, I mean, I'm nationally introverted guy. Really, they don't talk. Or if they do talk, they talk about themselves. So just like both things are awful, awful things to do. But, yeah, what do you call it? So I read that book and I went there and I met Marcela and I met Paris. And I just really tried to become friends with them, trying to get them to like me. I asked them questions about themselves. They asked me a question about myself. I told them about my career. And yeah, really, it kind of blossomed from there. And I was able to. Paris gave me his email, which I thought was great. It turns out it was kind of luck of the draw. He was starting a new copycat group sometime soon. And from then on out we just kind of. We did a project together. He liked it, and then he invited me to his group. So that's how that worked out.
- [15:36]
Jason Rutkowski
I love how strategic you were about this entire process and I'm so glad I asked about it because I had no idea that you planned it out. I just thought you accidentally bumped into Paris and built a relationship. And even now I'm thinking, wow, what a great idea to read that book twice before going to events. Because I met you recently at an event, hung out, and I really like you. So I Feel like you used those steps on me because it worked.
- [16:01]
Kira Hug
I mean, it's just stuff you should be doing on a day to day basis. Really. I mean, it's not even stuff like, okay, I'm only going to do this at this event. It's just like you should just become, you know, Branker, you know, so for the people on this podcast, I know Kieran Rob through a Brian Kurt's Mastermind group. And you know, Brian talks about this all the time, about becoming interested in other people and talking with other. I mean, it's really basic stuff that a lot of people forget.
- [16:31]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. And you talk about using this to meet a mentor. Have you used the same process to meet clients and connect with clients?
- [16:39]
Kira Hug
Oh, definitely. I mean, so another thing you should be doing is finding out what clients are going to be at these events, like before you even go. And you should be knowing, like, who they are, what their marketing is, you know, what promos are they running, you know, what's their marketing strategy? How does the funnel look like? To give another example, I was at the Cleveland event we were at for Brian Kurtz's thing. I went up to this guy and Paul Martinez introduced me to this guy named Alan. And he's the CEO of a health company called Patriot Health Alliance. And I didn't know who he was, but however, I knew who his company was because I've been following them for like a year and a half. So he introduces me himself. He's like, oh. Because Alan's kind of a low key guy. He doesn't like going. He doesn't do speeches or podcasts or anything like that. He goes, oh, my name's Alan, you know, I'm the CEO of Patriot Health Alliance. And I go, oh, I've seen three of your VSLs in eight of your sales letters. Like, how's this thing doing? How's that thing doing? And he had this look on his face like, how does this guy know all this?
- [17:43]
Right?
- [17:43]
Like, how does. Like. Because most people, when most freelance capitalists go up, the clients, like, they don't even know the basics, man. They barely even know who they are. You know, it's kind of like I've done. Last year I was at Boot Camp, AWI's bootcamp, which is every October. And Paris forced me to do the. Paris has a booth there and he. For one of his clients and he's like, jason, you gotta help me. Barnaby's not. Because Barnaby usually does it. But he wasn't there that year. He's like, you Gotta help me do it. Jason, I need some help. I was like, okay, Paris. And then I'm standing there at the job fair booth. So it's a job fair where people come up to you and tell you about themselves. And they would come up to me and they go. They'd be like, oh, what does your company do? What products does your company sell? Oh, what type of writing do you guys do? I was like, how do you guys not know this information? You know, I was like. I was like, you gotta. Like, when I went to my first bootcamp years ago, like, I had like five or six clients where, like, I took notes. Like, before I went, like, I knew what products they sold, I knew what current campaigns are running. I knew. I knew all this information. And then when you enter in a conversation with these people, you're like six or seven steps down the line instead of at step one, which is, who are you and what do you do? You know, you don't want to be there. So I think that's a big mistake a lot of people make. And I mean, if you could show clients that, like, hey, because these people care so deeply about their businesses. When you talk like, Alan, he's a CEO of a company. His business is his life. He spent hours, hundreds, thousands of hours of his time building that business. I mean, if you could talk with him at a deep level about it and you could show you have a high level knowledge of his marketing, you know, he's going to. He's going to like you. He's like, wow, this is someone who I can actually talk with at a deep level. Maybe he starts to like you a little bit. And maybe somewhere down the line you can. You know, a lot of times when I meet clients, I just. Only thing I want is their contact info. I don't ask them for a job right away. Sometimes that happens. But, like, I just want, like, hey, man, let's just like, let's contact, give me your email, let's set up a phone call, let's talk later, or let's meet in the bar later. You know, like, I just want to continue to. I just want to be liked enough so I could continue the conversation later, which should be your main goal, really. And then, you know, stuff blossoms from that. So I think that it's a big mistake people make when they go to conferences. Not starting, you know, not knowing what you're doing, why you're doing it, who you're going to meet, what you want from them. You know, how this relationship is going to develop. You Know stuff like that.
- [20:21]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that advice to me, I mean that, that is gold right there. That this interview just for that one thing is worth, you know, the hour of time that we're putting into it. It's fantastic advice.
- [20:32]
Kira Hug
Exactly.
- [20:34]
It's so. I don't want to repeat everything I just said, but it is really important. I mean, it's knowing. Yeah, it's funny, Akira says it's, you know, you said you were surprised how so strategic in meeting Paris. Yeah, but I mean, that's how you get those results, is by being very strategic. You know, you have to, you know, you have to have some goal in mind and then you have to have some action steps to achieve it. And it's like if you just start thinking about that way in everything that you do, it's a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. I'm just, I'm just sitting at my desk and I'm thinking, what should I do? So I'm going to go to this conference. What should I do? What do I want? You know, just like some three or four basic questions you could ask about to yourself before you do anything. Don't just go do things without, you know, without thinking about it. Just, you know, it doesn't require much, but you're going to get some, you know, and a lot of times here's, here's one thing that I wanted to bring up. I was reading your questions this morning and I thought, I definitely want to tell you this one thing. If you're a freelance copywriter and you go to a marketing event, what's great about going to a marketing event is you get to meet other successful writers, which is something you don't usually get to do. Usually you're sitting at your desk wherever you live and you're just all alone and that's it. So like, okay, two or three times a year, you're able to actually talk with people. This is great. And one thing I used to do when I was like, I had no success and my skill level was low and I had no reputation, is I would go up to people like Marcella and I would just ask them questions about how kind of like what you're doing on this podcast, like, how did you get started? What was your first job? What steps? What was your biggest obstacle? What did like, kind of like just what you're asking me on this podcast, same questions, but you know, in a face to face interaction, maybe at a bar or a restaurant where conversation flows really easily and, you know, all the benefits of face to face interaction And I would just, like, take mental notes, and I would go and I would find as many successful freelance copywriters as I could, which would be like eight or nine of them at each conference. And I would just ask them the same questions. It's like, how did you get started? What was your first jobs? What it was like? And they were. And people love telling you their stories, man. People love. Especially if you're successful and you're an entrepreneur. People love. Talk about, oh, man, I was struggling so hard, and then I was like, I was homeless for six months. You know, everyone else. Everyone was telling that story. But you get to learn so much. Like, you get to see what the thinking is. Like, okay. Just like this podcast, you get to see what the thinking is. It's like, okay, I should be doing that stuff. Like, I should be doing that. Like. And almost like, the questions I would ask myself, I learned from these people because it's the same questions they ask themselves. I'm like, okay, I'm going to start doing that, and then you start doing it. And it might. You know, you might not get success right away, within the first day or two, but if you plan it out, you know, six months from now, 12 months from now, you're going to have. You're going to be so much farther along than you ever thought was possible.
- [23:25]
Jason Rutkowski
You should have recorded those conversations. You could have turned it into a podcast.
- [23:32]
Kira Hug
If only.
- [23:34]
Jason Rutkowski
So I want to ask you about. We'll kick off and talk about your copycub experience with Paris, because you mentioned him. Did you know the exact moment where Paris kind of leaned in and was like, oh, yeah, I want you to be my copy cub. Was there a moment that you had together?
- [23:52]
Kira Hug
Yeah, I'm going to. You know, I really want to send you guys something. So the story of how I met Paris and how I got him to give me his email address. Because, by the way, the funny story about Paris giving me his email, Paris doesn't carry business cards because he doesn't want anyone talking to him. Right. He's actually incredibly nice guy, but he doesn't want people. If you meet him at a conference, I'm making him sound like he's like, the Scrooge or something. He's not. He's actually a nice guy, but he doesn't want people contacting him because too many people contact him. Right. He's at that level where he's too famous in our industry, so. So too many people ask him for stuff. It was really funny. I was talking with him and Paul Asks, it was Paul Martinez, me and Paris. And Paul asks Paris a question. And then Paris turns around and he writes, and there's a piece of paper on this table that's behind him. And he writes something down. I'm like, okay, he's going to give Paul. It's like a note for Paul because Paul just asked a question. He's going to write something down and give this thing to Paul. So he writes something down, he folds it up, and then he walks up to me, he hands this thing to me, it's a folded up piece of paper. And he says, I never give this to anybody. That's what he said. He didn't say anything else. He just said, I never give this to anybody. And he handed it to me and I opened it up and it was his email address. I was like, no way. I was like, this is unbelievable. And by the way, when he gave me that, I instantly thought to myself that $5,000 was worth it. This is exactly what I came here for. Like I said, my main goal wasn't to become Scopic Hub. My main goal was to become his friend and have him at least give me his contact info, which is super hard to get. And that was my big, big goal. And that happened at the second day. And I was like, okay, I can go home now. I don't even need to stay at this conference anymore, even though it was a great conference. But yeah, so what I wanted to send you guys was when I first met Paris. Well, let's rewind. Right before I met Paris, I met Marcela because I was too nervous to go up to Paris. And I met Marcella and I asked her the standard Dale Carnegie, how to win Friends, influence people questions. I asked her a bunch of questions about herself. And then what happens was when you ask people questions about themselves, they ask you questions about yourself. And I told. And I had a couple of stories that I actually like had planned out about my career and myself. And I told one of them, Marcella, and she goes, wow, that takes you a great. I don't have time to go into the story right now because it's really long. It's like a ten minute story. But she's like, wow, that's actually a really great story. And she goes, you got to tell that to Paris. And then she dragged me over to. And Marcela always takes full credit for this. Every time I meet Marcela, she goes, I introduce you to Paris, you gotta thank me. And I'm like, yeah, okay, Marcel. She dragged me over there and she's like, paris, you gotta listen to this good story. And I told him the story, and when I told it to him, his, like, eyes lit up. His, like eyes. Like, almost like when you're surprised, like, your eyes get really big. And he's like, who is this guy? Like, what is this? And I don't. I don't.
- [26:51]
Jason Rutkowski
He's teasing the story. He's teasing it.
- [26:53]
Kira Hug
Here's the thing. Here's the thing. No, no, no, here's. Here's the thing. About a year ago, I wrote out the story because Marcella was running. Just started her titan ions thing, and she wanted. She needed some content to send to her list of people. And I wrote this thing, and I go, hey, Marcella, you remember that story I told you? She's like, yeah, it was a great story. I was like, yeah, I wrote an article about it. It was kind of like, I think the title. I haven't looked at it in a while, but the title is the single most important thing you could do at live marketing events. And then I went into this thing about telling, like, a really interesting story about yourself that gets people really excited about you and who you are. And I told the story, and then I taught the lesson that comes after the story. And it's the same thing I'm telling you right now, but I actually wrote out the whole thing. So I'm going to send it to you, and you guys can share it with your people. Cool. I'll link to it. It's the whole. It's really about. What's great about stories is it convinces people, like, okay, this guy's marketing knowledge, his copywriting knowledge, his work ethic, it instantly communicates all that, but in, like, an exciting, interesting way. And you should be really using that when you're meeting people at marketing conferences. So that's what the article is about. But, yeah, it has the whole story. And if you want to read it, the whole thing's in there.
- [28:09]
Rob Marsh
Cool. We'll check it out. So I am a little hesitant to ask this question because I know you can't answer a whole lot. You know, we've talked with Paul, we've talked with Marcela, and anytime, you know, we talk to people who have been Paris's Cubs, you know, everybody wants to know, you know, what's the experience like? And I'm guessing you get this from just about everybody that you talk to, you know, who knows that you're in. In that relationship. And so, you know, Paris actually shared his book list, you know, at our event. And. And so there are some of those kinds of things that, you know, I know that he's willing to share, but will you just tell us a little bit about the experience, the kinds of things that you do with Paris, you know, without revealing any. Anything that's super secret. But just what's that experience like and what have you taken away from it?
- [28:51]
Kira Hug
Yeah, so, I mean, I could give you a general overview. It's like, you know, you said you got the book list. Sylberis always has us reading books. We get on these calls that are two, three hours long sometimes. And really, it's a lot of the books in itself. You should read the books 100%. But they kind of provide a foundation. It kind of provides a syllabus where it's like he teaches lessons through the book. So we read the book, we discuss our notes, and then he starts going very deep into what he thinks about it and kind of what. What, like, the deeper psychological lessons are with the book. And he kind of like starts. You know, he has. He throws in a lot of examples from his career, stuff he's written. He sends us writing examples. So it's like, it's kind of the books. I could get more into this about the other stuff too, but the books are kind of a launching pad to, like, other things he wants to talk to us about. There's a lot of homework. There's a lot of writing. There's a lot of unpaid writing, by the way, and there's paid stuff. But it's a big time commitment. It's a lot of. From the moment he starts to call, like I said, some of these calls are three hours long. It's constant. It's constant copywriting, constant marketing. Just like, it's almost overload. Like, you get to the end of the call and everyone's extremely exhausted. But yeah, it's, you know, he does. Of course, he has his techniques that I can't talk about. He has, like, proprietary stuff I can't talk about. But overall, it's. It's a lot of Paris talking. I don't know how he does it. It's like he. It's because when you're at that level that Paris is at, like, he could just go off on one topic for a really, really long time. But yeah, I mean, it's like at the end of every call, you feel like, man, I learned so much. And then what Paris says, he records the call, and then we have to re. Listen to it. And if you really want to get, like, all the lessons out of that call like you're re listening to it five or six times. Really, you should be at least. And yeah, I mean, do you have any specific questions?
- [30:59]
Jason Rutkowski
I have a question. You know, for someone who's listening and they're like, okay, I. I don't know, Paris. I'm not going to be his copycub anytime soon for whatever reasons, but I want. I want to do something similar or I want to, you know, do they need to read the books or do they need to find another mentor? Is there a way? It's almost like we could hack the system. And of course you can't replicate that type of experience that you're currently having. But what about for people who cannot be a copy cub for whatever reason? How can they take something that you've learned and use it?
- [31:31]
Kira Hug
The thing about Paris is he teaches you the lesson, and you might understand the lesson intellectually where it's like. And the same thing, if you read a book, say you're reading a copyright book, one of the books on those lists, it talks about some headline technique, or it talks about some bullet writing technique, or it talks about some other copy technique. It's like, you might understand it intellectually, but if you want to actually understand how to apply this stuff in real life, the absolute best thing you could do is take winning promos, and I could talk about how you actually know how a promo is winning or not. Take winning promos in your niche and start reverse engineering what you're looking at specifically for the one. So Paris will say, okay, here's this super specific bullet writing technique that I came up with, and here's why I do it. Okay, that makes sense. And then what I do is I pull up five or six winning promos, preferably Paris promos, but could be any top health copywriter. And I just reverse engineer. I just. I look, for instance, where that. Where that technique is happening over and over, and I write it down. I have a notebook or I have a Word document, and I'm just like. And I have all these Word documents on my computer where it's like this technique and I open up that Word document and it's just like 20, 25 samples of that technique. And it's like this other technique, you know, this headline, you know, it's like story, right? Like in health niche, there's like three or four stories you can write. So a common story in the health niche is some person has a problem. They tried a million different things. They came into the doctor doc. I tried all these million different things. It didn't work. The doctor is like, okay, I got this new treatment that no one knows about. Do the treatment. Wow, doc. Two weeks later, my thing's cured. I suffered from this for 20 years, and now it's gone. And then people wonder, well, what's the technique? And then you could go into copy, but what's it. So that's a common health niche story technique. Well, what I do is I create a word document and I open and I go find 5 or 6 or 10 or however, 15, 20 examples of that. And I just. I either handwrite it or I type it out. And now I have a document where it's just like, okay, anytime I'm writing health copy, I can open up that document. I'm like, okay, I want to use this type of story, this type of technique. And now I got 15, 20 examples of that. I can not steal the copy, but I could swipe the structure. I could swipe, you know, the build up, how they tease it, like, okay, like. And it just, like, drills it into your mind, like. So the most important thing is not. Not just realizing what you need to do, but how you can actually do it in your day to day life. Because, I mean, so there's so many times where people read the books and they go, oh, yeah, that's, that's interesting. I understand that intellectually. But then they're doing the same copywriting now as they did six months ago. And that's because they didn't drill it into their head of like, well, how is this actually used in real life? And how can I structure this so when I'm doing a project, I can use this in real life? How is it going to change the way I write copy? And a lot of people think it's going to happen automatically. It's not. You need to go out of your way. Which is why Paris recommends handwriting promos, because it kind of drills. A big benefit of that. It drills it in your head of how you're actually supposed to be doing this at this moment. So I would recommend that. That's. That was the biggest breakthrough, really. I used to not do that when I first started Paris Group, and then I started, you know, reading books and reverse engineering things and creating word documents and finding real life examples. And honestly, I think it made me a lot better.
- [34:56]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I think what you're talking about here is mastery, you know, and when Paris was talking about his book list at our event, he mentioned, you know, you don't just read them once, you read them once just to get a sense of what's in them. Then you go through the second time and you underline, and then you go through the third time and you start taking notes, you know, and handwriting what you've underlined into a notebook. And then, you know, there's two or three more times that you go through it. And you're basically taking that process to everything that you're doing and seeing. Because it's not just. I mean, my sense is, Jason, you don't just want to be a copywriter, you want to be a master of copywriting. And I think there's a really significant difference.
- [35:35]
Kira Hug
Oh, definitely. I don't know. A part of that's just my personality. You know, it's just like I do it that way because that's the only way I can imagine myself doing it. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't think of it as I got to put in this hard work. I think of it as well, this is my career. And the more I do this, the better results I get. And then when I'm sitting with clients or talking with other copywriters, I can speak about things at a higher level. If you do that stuff on a daily basis, if you're constantly reading promos, reverse engineering promos, reading books, taking notes, even just one or two years down the line, you're going to be able to sit down with people and just have a, you know, almost like this, have like a huge conversation about, you know, the tiniest, littlest thing. But it's like you can, you know, when I talk with Paul, you know, Paul's a huge A list, Paul Martinez, huge A list copywriter. That's what we do when we sit down and we have like private one on one conversations. We'll just talk about one tiny little copywriting thing for like 20, 30 minutes. Because we both went through that process of deep diving, studying handwriting, reverse engineering, promos, reading books. And that just changes the way you think about things.
- [36:46]
Rob Marsh
So before we leave off, this whole idea of what you're doing with Paris and this self mastery thing, is there one book or one course that you would say, hey, if you want to get started on this path, this is.
- [36:59]
Kira Hug
The book to start with?
- [37:00]
Rob Marsh
What would that be?
- [37:02]
Kira Hug
Well, okay, this answer is an answer no one ever talks about. And it makes me really mad. And it's actually one of the first books Paris had us read. And it's actually about a topic that so many people ignore. And it's so obvious because at this point, I get a lot of people who Want me to critique their copy. Like, hey Jason, it doesn't have to be for the health niche, but like, hey Jason, I have my business, can you please, I'm not a copywriter, critique my copy. And they send me their copy. And they have this, all of them have this one huge, huge problem that they don't seem to realize that they have. And it's not that they don't understand copywriting, it's that they don't understand how to write. Like there's so many copywriters who cannot write like the skill of writing. So a book that's on Paris list is on Writing well by William Zinsser. And I love that book. And another book I would recommend is the Brilliance Breakthrough by Eugene Schwartz, specifically the first eight chapters of it. Listen, when I critique copy, the first thing I critique is how it's written. Like how you not just not your power words or emotion or any of that stuff, just like your sentence doesn't make sense, or this sentence doesn't connect to that sentence, or it's too long, or you're bouncing around or you're using the wrong thing and wrong like really basic writing ability that people think, oh, Jason, I passed 11th grade English class. I don't need to learn how to write. You know, I know how to or, or even worse, like I, I, I, I have an English degree. I'm like, that doesn't mean show me something you written that you could have been bad. You know, I don't know. Just because you have a bachelor's degree doesn't mean you're good at writing. But yeah, I mean I always tell people it's so foundational and people ignore it. Learn how to write. Read those two books I've read on writing well and the brilliant breakthrough probably, and this is not exaggerated eight or nine times each with my notes that I constantly reread the book and re read my notes and I'm constantly comparing. I spent the first two years of my career, first year with Paris just learning how to write. And one thing, when Paris critiques my copy, if you haven't applied the lessons from those two books perfectly, he's going to chew my ass out for 10 minutes. Jason, we went over this a million times. Like nothing to do with copywriting, just with writing sentences like, like it's so important and so many people ignore it. And then they come to me with this like fake John Carlton copy where like they have like these 40, 50 word sentences that never fucking end. I'm sorry, sorry to drop that pause and it's just like, none of it makes sense. And I'm just like, dude, like, forget the. Forget the copywriting books, man. Start with the writing books. Finish, go through those two books, and then go to John Caples and Vic Schwab and those books. Okay, so that's my recommendation. Let's learn how to write.
- [39:50]
Jason Rutkowski
Incredible advice. Thank you. That was a psa.
- [39:55]
Kira Hug
And really, I mean, really people listening to this, I mean, it's a big thing. It's like, if you read those two books, especially multiple times, like I said, Brilliant's Breakthrough, Eugene Schwartz, Brian Kurtz sells it, and Odd writingwell Williams and sir, it should fundamentally change the way you write sentences. It should. If it's not, maybe you're already an amazing writer. That's great. I hope you are. That's a lot less work. But if you're like me, which is like most people, you need to really sit down and do it.
- [40:25]
Yeah.
- [40:26]
Rob Marsh
And just as far as brilliance Breakthrough goes, just to add Brian, actually, when you buy that book, you get a workbook because there are writing exercises in the book and, you know, basically that allows you to, you know, run through the workbook. You're not necessarily writing in the book itself, and you can actually practice with it. So it's a. It's a fantastic resource.
- [40:45]
Kira Hug
It totally. I know. I think he sells it for, like, $200, which people might think, $200 for a book? Wow. I'm not. I'm never going to pay that. Totally worth it. 100%. And it's funny, at the end of the eighth chapter, Eugene Schwartz actually says, I could end the book right here if I wanted to. Which is true. Because the first. The most fundamental part is the first eight chapters. And then everything else is kind of supplementary. It's good stuff. But the first eight chapters, man, it's tough about how to write clearly, how to write simply, simplicity and clarity, two big things people don't know how to do. And it's like the way Eugene Schwartz talks about in that book is amazing. I love that book so much. So I totally, totally worth the 200 bucks.
- [41:28]
Jason Rutkowski
Oh, wow. Okay, so I want to hear more about your writing process. When you're sitting down to work on a project, I want to kind of just get a glimpse into what's happening in your office. Like, where are you starting? Clearly, you have an incredible resource library and swipe files to pull from. But what does your process look like as you're moving into your project, even starting with the research portion?
- [41:54]
Kira Hug
Yeah, I mean, research is Huge. I mean, I, I, I think becoming a good researcher is just as important as becoming a good writer. Like, I know I just Talked about for 10 minutes about learning how to write, which is, think about copywriting is. There's so many things to learn, right? There's so many, like, little. If you want to be. If you want to do this at a really high level, you got to master, like, Like, a hundred different skills, which is kind of daunting, but also kind of exciting. And one of the. And one of the big skills you need to master is research. So the question is, what do I research and how do I do it? That's gonna depend on the niche. That's gonna depend on your product, you know? You know, in health, there's the big products are supplements, books, just DVD programs, like, in, like, newsletters, okay? All those products have, like, their own research methodology that, like, you're gonna go through that's specific to the product in that niche. I would say, overall, the best thing you can do. Again, this is another thing that takes forever to do, but it's totally worth it, is I would take promos written by Paris in Health niche. Like, okay, Paris, I'm doing a book promo. I'm doing a book promo for Bottom Line right now. I would take a book promo that Paris sit for Bottom Line, and I would open it up, and I would read the information, and then I would say to myself, like, how did Paris come up with this information? Like, what? Just. I mean, you can just ask yourself, like, how did you do this research? Like, how you. You get. And you'll come up with, like, the most surprising answers. So one thing I used to do was Paris wrote a bunch of. Of promos for Bottom line books, like, five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Well, those promos, because Paris wrote them, were hugely successful. And that means millions of people bought those books or hundreds of thousands of people bought those books. So that means people have those books, like, books are eternal, right? People, like, buy a book and put on their bookshelf and never look at it. But that also means that people sell those books to this day. So you can actually, I would take a Paris promo from 15 years ago. They wrote from Bottom Line, and the book would be called. I actually have one right here. Oh, Speed Healing Unlimited Bottom Lights. Speed Healing Unlimited. It's right by my desk. I went on Amazon, I typed in bottom line, Speed Healing Unlimited. And there's people that sell this book for, like, $2, and you can buy for 2 bucks. So I bought the book. I put the book on my desk. I took Paris promo. I put the promo on my desk and I would open up the promo and it would say a bullet or an article, and then it would say the page number. It's like, I found this page, I found this information in this page of this book. I would take the book, I'd open it up to that page, and I would read the page and I would say to myself, well, how did Paris come up with this information? I'm reverse engineering his research process. And you'll see stuff like the book would be so boring. It's the most boring information ever. And Paris turned it into this amazing. David Deutsch is good at this too. This amazing, amazing thing. And you could do this to this day, especially with information products. Just reverse engineer the research, find out what the final copy was, and then go back to the source. And then you'll start realizing, like, oh, during my research process, I should think like this, I should do this. I should. You know, if I'm reading information that's like this, I should think about it in this way. I should write this down and maybe this turns into a piece of copy later. And I would just do stuff like that. And it's amazing. And I did that for like seven or eight books. Like seven or eight promos. And, and books are great because people always keep. Like I said, people always hold on to books. People, Books last forever. So if you get, if you could get some book promotions written by a list copywriters, and if you could buy the book or buy the, or buy the free report, whatever, whatever information product it is, and you can like reverse engineer it. I mean, that influenced my research process. So like I said, it's going to be different depending on what product you're doing, what niche you're in. But that's again, a lot of it is a lot of copywriting. Learning copywriting is reverse engineering. And then it's going to influence your research process in your own way. Really? Because I feel like a lot of people's processes are different. So specifically, if I'm doing a supplement, I'll research Google, I'll go on to scientific articles, I'll do a bunch of random different things. But all my reverse engineering has influenced my process in some way. Where Paris always says, I can look at a piece of information and I see something amazing, and a B list copier looks at the same piece of information and they see something that's boring, right? So it's like I take that amazing thing and I make it, you know, I see the gold nugget in there that other people don't see, and that's a big reason for his success. And that's a way you can learn to do that by. Okay, what did Paris see? Okay, let me go back. Let me see what he saw. You know, so that's what I recommend.
- [46:41]
Rob Marsh
That's that again. There's so much stuff here that I'm just, like, totally jonesing over. This is awesome. So I. I'm thinking that there, you know, people may be listening to this and thinking, okay, Jason works in, you know, the health niche. And that's something that I'm really interested in doing myself. You know, in addition to the advice that you gave about, like, how do you connect with potential clients?
- [47:03]
Kira Hug
How.
- [47:03]
Rob Marsh
What are the things that people can do to break into this niche? You know, what should they be looking at? Studying, you know, how do you get your first client in, you know, writing for, say, a newsletter or a health supplement, right?
- [47:16]
Kira Hug
So the very first thing is studying the market. So you need to get on everybody's list, Everybody's email list. I'm just gonna. For health, I'm just gonna name some random companies. You got New Market Health, you got in all their companies, you got HealthSense Media, you got Dr. Gundry, you got Advanced by Nutritionals, Nature City, Patriot Health alliance, you got all these. So you get on everybody's list. Email list. And what I did is I created my own Gmail account just for health. So I have a Gmail account that's just for collecting health emails, like traffic driving emails. And that email has like 80,000 emails, 80,000 health emails. Because I've been doing it for years, right? It's like years old. So. And then. So the first process before even thinking about writing for somebody is studying the market, right? It's like. Like I said, when, if you're meeting people, if it's through an email, through LinkedIn, at a marketing conference, through a reference, a recommendation, you should know who you're talking to and what you're talking about. You got to know that stuff. It helps if you have some writing samples, because everyone always asks for writing samples. And if you don't have a writing sample, do what I did. Rewrite somebody's copy, Rewrite. Take a control that's already out there and rewrite it completely in your own words. This works well for an information product. So it's like, okay, bottom line, it has this promo that's a book, a book promo to sell in the book or this guy has a program that's like an ebook or, or a free report. And the copy is about that information product. Well, just buy the information product and rewrite the copy with your own headline and your own body copy using all the lessons you learned from the books and reverse engineering and studying the health market. And have at least two samples. Just have two samples. Clients just want to see that you can write something. Also, do the. The two books I talked about on how to actually write sentences and put a couple samples together. And when you're. I mean, I always hated. Thing is like, at least for me, like cold emailing and cold calling people never really worked. Really. I was struggling until I started going to events and, you know, started doing all the things I talked about, about researching people and becoming friends with people. That's just my process. I know there's some people out there that have some success with. You know, I know Paul Martinez on his podcast on here talked about some things he did that sounded really good that I never did. So maybe in terms of contacting people through email or LinkedIn or online, maybe other people have some better information than me, but for me, it was, you know, get to the point where you know what you're talking about. You know, learn how to become. Make people like you, how to become friends with people, form relationships with people, go to live events and then grow your copywriting business from there and deep dive your niche, deep dive your market. Know what you're talking about, and that's what worked for me.
- [50:07]
Jason Rutkowski
What's clear in all of your responses is that you are deeply committed to mastery, which Rob mentioned, and that you do the work like you do the work times 10. And that's what will make you the master. And compared to a lot of covers who will not do the work and are not ready to write, copy and copy books and read books eight times. My final question for you is, what does the future of copywriting look like to you?
- [50:41]
Kira Hug
Like for my career specifically?
- [50:43]
Jason Rutkowski
No, just in general. But interpret it however you want, so go with the flow. But in general, what do you think copywriting looks like as an industry?
- [50:54]
Kira Hug
Yeah, so it's really interesting because I spent so much of my time in health and now finance, and those tend to be the two big niches like everyone likes to talk about, because that's where the most money and most competition is. I know there's many niches outside that, but I find it. It's kind of niche by niche in terms of. You really got to understand how your niche operates and I'll give two examples of health and finance. Like health. I found that there's a lot of health companies out there. There's a lot of supplement companies out there that are like low eight figure supplement companies that love to hire freelancers and even maybe high seven figure companies love to work for freelancers. They don't have a big in house team and they're willing to hire people to come in just for a project or two. And that's something that's very unique and specific to the health niche. And then on the other hand there's the financial niche which nowadays tends to be very in house focused, like very like big company, especially the Agora divisions. Like big companies, big in house teams who don't like working with freelance copywriters. Unless like you're high level. If you're high level. And by high level I mean like you really got to know what you're doing and you really already, you already have to have a reputation and you have to have connections and know people. Unless you're at that level. They love their in house system. The financial niche loves like their in house teams and you know, you move to wherever, you know, Baltimore, Florida, wherever they're located and like you work in their system for two years and that's like a very financial niche thing. But the health niche is kind of. There are in house health niche teams but it's like, so it varies like, like as you travel, you know, through the different niches that exist. So I mean really the best thing I always tell people do is like get as much good information as you can. And the best way to get good information is well listen to stuff like this and also go in it, go to events where you have like successful entrepreneurs, successful marketers, successful copywriters, find out what niche they work in. And just like I'm always digging up information, man. I'm always talking to, you know, our fridge. Our friend Rich Abraham worked at Agora Financial. Big. You know, Ridge is a successful financial copywriter. I'm always asking questions about the niche, always ask some questions about Agora. I'm always asking questions like I'm always trying to get a better picture of, you know, how does this niche work? You know, what's going on, what's the freelance landscape? Like what's the in house landscape? Like how do these publishers and executives make decisions? Like I'm always just gathering that info, right? So you kind of have to do that in whatever niche you're in. But I will say, you know, there's the freelance Niche still exists. You can still have a lot of success with it. I think in health is a good opportunity. Other niches I'm not too familiar with, like the biz op and Internet marketing niche really, but I assume I know a couple freelancers that are very successful in that. Those type of spaces. So, yeah, just try to get as much good information on whatever niche you're going to go into as you can.
- [54:03]
Rob Marsh
Lots of opportunity for anyone who's really willing to put in the work. It sounds like.
- [54:07]
Kira Hug
Oh, yeah. I mean, you got to stand out. Because I was talking with Paris about this the other day. I was on a phone call with him and he's like, yeah, 20 years ago, there were very little copywriters. There was very little, just in terms of volume. And there was even a smaller amount of a list copywriters like 20 years ago. And he's like, nowadays there's a ton of copywriters, but there's still a very small amount of high level copywriters. There's a ton of copyright. There's thousands and tens of thousands of freelancers and in house people that are not that great. And then there's a smaller amount of people who are at the highest level. And really the amount of work that you guys keep saying, I do a lot of work and I do, but that's, you know, I do that because, like I said, it's a natural. Part of me, I just feel like that's what I should be doing. But also it's. That's how you become successful. Like, that's how you make more money. That's how you start convincing. Because, I mean, because the problem nowadays is you got to convince people, like, hey, I'm not like these 10,000 other freelancers who, you know, all have the same skill level, which is not that high. They don't have much of a reputation, and you gotta stand out from that. And a big part of that is, well, becoming friends with people, especially through live events, but also knowing what you're talking about.
- [55:25]
Yeah.
- [55:25]
Rob Marsh
Who knows if Paris is ever going to do another round of copycubs. But, Jason, if you ever open up for taking Cubs.
- [55:35]
Kira Hug
We'Re ready to sign up.
- [55:36]
Rob Marsh
This has been a fantastic episode.
- [55:40]
Jason Rutkowski
Right here.
- [55:41]
Kira Hug
I mean, I don't know, man. I don't know how Paris does it. What's interesting, I will say this, really, I know it's in it, the call. But a lot, a big reason a lot of top A listers have copycubs is not only because they like teaching and Paris really does like teaching, but also out of necessity. You know, a lot of A Listers, a lot of them form very deep relationships with clients and then relationships where it's like, hey, I'm going to be running, I'm essentially going to be running your marketing department and I'm going to be getting a cut of the front end and back end. I might get in some equity deals like they set up. They set up these big deals and then these A Listers is like, well, I'm running this marketing department now, but I need all this copy done. And not just the big promos, but the back end stuff, the traffic drivers, like all this, you know, the Google stuff, all this copy. And a lot of these A Listers, the reason they form copycub groups is out of necessity, right? They need copycubs to, you know, do all this copy that they're just not capable of doing because they don't have the time or they just don't have the desire because, you know, they want to focus on the big money stuff. They don't want to focus on the small money stuff. So my recommendation always, I always tell people, get somebody, I don't care if it's in house, I don't care if it's a mentor, preferably in like a one on one relationship. It doesn't have to be. But get somebody who knows what they're talking about to train you. Hopefully they're at a level where they need some smaller copywriting work done and maybe you could do some smaller stuff for them. But so go for the highest level person you can. Man. I went for Paris on Propolis. I was able to get that and that was great. It doesn't have to be Paris, but it's such a valuable thing. And a lot of times they need, a lot of these top guys need smaller copy work done. And a lot of times if you could give us like, hey, I'm at least at the level where I can do these emails or these articles. It could be content, could be traffic driving, maybe you can form a relationship and it's extremely valuable experience.
- [57:48]
Jason Rutkowski
Thank you. This has been very grounding. I feel like it reminds me of how much more I want to learn and how much more there is to learn. So thank you for sharing so much advice, actionable advice, and then inspiring us too.
- [58:03]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, thanks, Jason.
- [58:04]
Kira Hug
Yeah, sure.
- [58:10]
That's the end of our interview with Jason. Jason's process for studying and reverse engineering older promotions to learn how to write great copy is something that more copywriters should be doing to become great. We need to spend more time studying great copy, but not just so that we can copy the words or read through a particular swipe or, you know, hand write the thing. It's rather we want to be deconstructing what's going on so that we can apply the strategies and the tactics to new products and services. Jason's practice of creating a swipe document with lots of examples of great copy when you come across it, so you just add it into that document. Having that swipe doc with 12 or 15 different examples of strong guarantees that effectively overcome risk aversion, or a swipe doc with lots of examples of headlines, even multiple examples of headline variations on a particular hook, and so on a swipe doc that includes different ways of overcoming various objections or closing techniques. All of these could be immensely useful when you're writing your copy. By becoming a collector of good copy, you teach yourself how to write it. And perhaps more importantly, you have lots of examples to refer to when you need to sit down and produce copy for a client. Taking the time to master this stuff before you need it to write producer will make you a much better writer. Hopefully you can see why I chose to reshare this interview and now question is, what are you going to do to implement these things in your writing practice? Since recording this episode, Jason has moved on from copywriting about investing to actually doing the investing himself. By applying the ideas that he was writing about, he found that he could make even more money doing the investing. So he doesn't do a lot of writing anymore, but the ideas that he shared investors this interview are worth gold to those of us who want to keep on writing. Before I go, I want to remind you again, the Copywriter Accelerator Fast Track program is going away forever. You can still get these business building strategies and ideas to implement in your own business, but only for a few more weeks. After that, this program is never going to be sold on its own again. Go to the copywriterclub.com fasttrack to learn more. And that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone that you know. Or if you don't know anybody who is a copywriter, a content writer, somebody who could be building their copywriting skills, you can always leave a review at Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. I really appreciate that thank you for listening and I'll see you next week.
- [60:46]
Copywriters coming together to help the world write better copy and make more money. Kira and Rob's Copywriters Club can make you lots of money. Listen to Akira and R. Copywriter's Club can make you lots of money as long as you listen through the whole damn episode.
- [61:18]
Foreign.
- [61:20]
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