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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #437: Landing a “Real” Job with Matt Snyder
01:05:53
In the XXX episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with ..... - Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. - Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Kira Hug
Want to land a real job as a copywriter or content writer? It's not easy, but help is on the way. This is the Copywriter Club Podcast. Most of the listeners to this podcast are freelancers or contract writers. And if you're like them, you generally work on projects or retainers for a variety of different clients and you're good at it. But some writers crave the stability that comes with a regular job, either part time or full time with an actual employer paying wages and maybe even providing benefits. A handful of freelancers I've worked with over the years have dipped their toes into the corporate world to work primarily for a single client or for those who are looking for part time jobs. They've landed work that that provides some security and regular income to go along with the unpredictability of freelancing. But finding those jobs isn't easy. They're out there for sure, but within hours of a copywriting or a content writing job, posting on LinkedIn or any other job board, the hiring managers receive hundreds of applications. Getting found in that kind of a slush pile is not easy, even for the very best writers. Recently, in the copywriter underground, I invited a friend of mine who has worked for decades as a job placement specialist for creatives to share her best advice for copywriters looking for real jobs, that training is inside the underground. Now, when I announced that we'd be hosting that training, another copywriter, Matt Snyder, reached out to offer his advice on the same topic. Matt is the head copywriter at a digital agency and he works with a team of five or six writers. He hires a lot and he sees a ton of applications, resumes, and other creative attempts to get his attention. So when he offered, I suggested we record our discussion and share it here on the podcast. That's what this episode is.
- [02:31]
Matt Snyder
Now, I know I said this is.
- [02:32]
Kira Hug
About getting hired to a real job with a company, but everything Matt shares today is applicable to getting hired by freelance clients as well. I think every copywriter, every content writer, and every freelance writer who listens to this episode is going to get A lot from what Matt had to share, so stay tuned. As usual, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground, where talking about getting work today. So I should probably mention the resources available in the Underground that will help you do that, starting with the workshop that my friend Jessica, the placement specialist gave her advice will make a difference if you're applying for what we tend to refer to as real jobs. I've got air quotes around that word real. We also have workshops in the Underground from experts like Laura Belgray, who shares how you can stop waiting in line and duck under the velvet ropes that are holding you back. And Paris Lampropoulos, who shared the exact pitch he used to get his first five clients, then how he went on.
- [03:28]
Matt Snyder
To double his income every year for.
- [03:30]
Kira Hug
The next five years. Do the math. That's a lot. There's also our in house training about ways to find clients and an entire course on sales, plus dozens of other workshops, templates, copy critiques, monthly coaching, and more. You can learn more@the copywriterclub.com TCU and now my interview with Matt Snyder.
- [03:54]
Matt Snyder
Matt, welcome to the podcast. I was checking our episodes because I, I swear we've had you on the podcast before and turns out we haven't. So we, we should have probably had you but before. But I'm glad that we've waited because what we're going to talk about today kind of came out of a lot of things that have happened since the last time you and I were even on a call together. So. So this should be pretty good. But let's start, let's start with your story. How did you even become a copywriter?
- [04:24]
Co-Host
Um, great question. I feel like I've lived many lives, so it's kind of hard to, to pin it down. But I, I always like to say, like, my love affair with writing online or publishing anything online started with a Zynga account, like way back in, like.
- [04:43]
Matt Snyder
That'S a long time ago.
- [04:44]
Co-Host
Yeah. Yeah, way back in like 2003. So like right when I got into college, I was like, I'm really. I, I kind of was dabbling into journaling and I thought that this online medium was going to be kind of cool. So that was like, I think Blogspot was maybe starting. And so I just started publishing stuff on Zynga and it was ridiculous. I don't even bother looking because I don't even remember what my account was or anything. It was ridiculous. But I just, I feel like a lot of trial and error started there. But that's kind of When I realized that like I was, I kind of had a knack for writing. And then a lot of my professors in school were like, hey, you're pretty good at writing. And I was like, great. But I didn't want to go that route. I was like, I'm gonna go into ministry. That's why I went to school for undergrad, left and decided that I wanted to do mission work. Didn't know where I want to go. So I kind of did this year long mission trip, adventure thing. And they gave everybody a blog post or like a blog to document their journey on or whatever and their thoughts. And so I did that and it kind of took off and even the organization was like, hey, you're, you're pretty good at this. So when you come back, do you want to work for us and kind of help us market the programs? And I was like, sure. So that's what I did when I got back. I mean, it was great because when I was away, that's when the market collapsed in 2008. And so I got back and I kind of had a weird job. But I'm a self taught marketer and that's kind of what I did. I just wrote, read every book, talked to everybody I could and it was just trial and error and so kind of fell in love with marketing that way. Did a lot of blog writing, content writing, and yeah, helped just learn in and outs of stuff for nonprofits. But then on the side I started freelancing and I was like, I think I'm gonna help other people do the same thing. And so I did content writing, SEO development stuff, started writing for websites, mostly nonprofits, dabbled in and out. Over the years I've been traveling a lot and then lived a life, got married, had all that stuff. And then I got a job at a church. This is after grad school, got a job at a church as a communications director and all that was great. I thought I wanted to go back into church ministry. I'd been out for a while. I ended up being like, I gotta get out of this. It just wasn't, it wasn't for me. Nothing against that environment or that world for anybody. But I started freelancing on the side full time and then, or mostly full time and kind of pivoted into freelance email marketing. Got into that world. I got connected with y'all at the copywriter club. I joined the accelerator program because I was like, I'm going to take my business seriously. And it really helped me take off, which is great. So yeah, I really, I pivoted hard into copyright. I, like, I can tell you the, not the date exactly, but I can tell you exactly where I was when I was like, I'm going to go hard into copywriting full time. My wife and I took a trip to Tulum. I think this was like in 2006, 2016, 2017, something like that. And I was sitting on a rooftop of this place. We were staying in Tulum, overlooking the jungle, and I was journaling and I was like, I really want to pursue copywriting full time. And talked to my wife about it and she was just like, sounds great. Go for it. So we were, you know, we. We didn't have kids, we had a dog, we didn't have a mortgage at that time, so it wasn't a big deal. And so there was just a lot of freedom to take risks. And I did it. And I mean, I've done well for myself. So, yeah, freelance, y'all really helped me set me up for success with my, my freelance business, which I kind of stopped viewing as a freelance business and just as like a business. Okay. Which is a great mental shift, by the way, for anybody listening. And then I ended up an agency, slid into my DMs one day. Grace Baldwin, who's an alum of my accelerator program and copywriter club stuff, she connected this person with me and he's like, Matt might be interested in this job. And so some of my DMs got on call with them. It was the end of 2021, I think. And my, you know, it's that time of year is Q4. Like, business slows down and it's like kind of get bored. And I was kind of stressed about, you know, well, will my, my client, my retainer clients renew for another year kind of thing, right? And I was like, you know what? I'll give it six months. And see, I had a, like, was supposed to do a 15 minute call with this agency, Homestead Studios, actually where I work now. And I was like, that 15 minute call turned into an hour. And then I just really jived with the partners that I was on the call with. And I was like, I'll give it six months. And so we're over three years later, I'm still there. So it worked out well. I went from being just an email copywriter writing on, you know, six, seven, eight accounts to now I'm the director of copy and I oversee the entire copy department across the whole agency. So it's, it's a lot of fun. I have a Whole team get to really help people grow, not just their craft and their skill, but grow as professionals and people. And it's. It's just so much fun. We work with a lot of cool brands and. Yeah, I like a lot. But anyway, that's. That's kind of how I became a copywriter and how I got to where I, you know, sort of definitely gonna.
- [10:27]
Matt Snyder
Jump into the agency stuff, but I. I'd like to go back to, you know, when you went all in on copywriting. It's about the same time that, you know, you were taking your business more seriously and really figuring this stuff out. How did you connect with your first clients? What did that look like? And what were you doing? Because you did okay. Like, I know there was. There was. It took a little time to get moving, but once it started, like, you seem to have some pretty good success.
- [10:54]
Co-Host
Yeah, I think I'm trying to figure out how I got my first clients. I. My. My first client client when I was freelancing, like, full time, was an old college friend. He had. He had a cybersecurity business, and he needed a content writer. And so at that time, I was like, I'll just say yes to everything. That was kind of. That was kind of like my ethos. Just say yes to everything. I really wanted to do email marketing exclusively, but I was like, I'll just take anything that comes away. And so I did, and he connected me with other people. It got. It kind of snowballed from there. I realized that if you do really good work and you're just dedicated to it and you communicate well, like, referrals just kind of come in naturally. And so he referred some people to me, and then I just kind of headhunted a few others through connections. I was really involved with the nonprofit world, and so especially here in Atlanta. And so I had some connections there that kind of got me involved, and I got a referral from another. It was just really like, my pipeline at first was just word of mouth. I didn't do much cold pitching. In fact, I had really for success with cold pitching. And my best. My best MO Was word of mouth. And so I ended up turning one of my former employers into a retainer client, which was a fantastic base. I highly recommend that avenue if you can get away with it. But, yeah, I'd say word of mouth is kind of how I really got my pipeline filled up at first and just saying yes to everything. And then it was through that that I realized, like, email marketing was pretty much my shtick. Like, that was what I was really good at. I could go into accounts and audit them. It was just like second nature to me. Figure out what people needed to do to be profitable or successful or fundraise whatever they needed to do. Yeah, so that's kind of. I don't know if that answered your question, but.
- [12:48]
Matt Snyder
Yeah, no, no, that answers it perfectly. And then when you got to the agency to Homestead Studios, you were introduced by a friend. So, you know, again, relationships networking helped facilitate that. But what did you do on that call with the partners? You said you really vibed with them. Like, what's the secret of that?
- [13:10]
Co-Host
Be yourself. I think this was what was interesting to me about that conversation, is he asked me in the dm. It was just on. On Twitter, when it was still Twitter. I'm not active on that platform anymore. But he. It was Jacob. You can go online and figure out who he is. Jacob Sabinson. He's awesome. He DM me. He's like, hey, are you interested in a full time job with our agency? He said, you've been recommended to us by Grace. I can't remember what it was exactly. And I just said, no, I'm not interested, but Because I'm playing hard to get. Yeah, yeah. No, I was like, I'm not. I'm not really that interested. But I said, I am. I will always take a call and make a new connection. I was like, I'm happy to meet with you. And so he's like, great, let's do it. And so he was like, just 15 minute call. We'll just pick your brain. And I was like, great. And so it was supposed to be just me and Jacob ended up being me, Jacob and Kelly, who's also a partner at the agency. And I didn't know who she was from Adam, but it ended up just being. I had nothing to lose in that conversation. Like, you know, they came to me and that kind of really put the ball in my court, I feel like more than anything and in my favor. And so I just. I asked him questions about the agency. They asked me questions about my experience. I hadn't sent them a portfolio or anything. I hadn't applied for anything. So he's like, do you have any copy that we can just look at? And I was like, well, I, you know, I did this website for this nonprofit agency and so let me pull it up. So I pulled it up in Google and showed him everything. And I went to the website. I was like, this is what this looks like. And he's like, they Sat there on the call and read through some of the stuff. And he was like, great. And then I said, you know, I just did this sales sequence for this client, and so I pulled it up. They read through it. I just did this sales page for this coach. So pulled that up, and I was like, it's just copy. It's not even been designed yet because it was an active client. And they read through it, and he's like, that's great. You seem to know, you know, what you're doing. I'm like, yeah, thanks. And then he said, you know, we'll get back in touch with you. You know, that kind of thing. And so they emailed me within the hour, an offer letter. And I was like, guys, I don't even know if I want to do this. And so that's when I really had to think about it. But I think the secret to that whole thing was not that I was playing hard to get. It was just that I approached that whole thing as just like a networking call. And I. I don't know, I wasn't desperate. Um, there was that. And I felt the freedom to just be 100% me and be really honest about my shortcomings and my mistakes and how I could add value maybe. But I was just like, this is kind of it. So that I feel like that helped stay on the call. It was also an interesting era for the agency. Like, they homestead at that point had just started within, like, the previous four months. Like, their retention side of the agency, they were mainly just acquisition, focused on unpaid social. And so they were trying to build out their email team. And so when I came on, it was me, one other copywriter and two designers and Jacob and Kelly. That was it. And so we were lean and we were taking on clients left and right. I just. Yeah, it was ripe for explosion. So it was just a good time. I don't know. Kudos to Grace, always. I always thank you so much because it was such a good connection.
- [16:30]
Matt Snyder
Yeah, Grace is an amazing human being. A great copywriter as well. Okay, before we go any farther, though, let's talk about the agency. Because people think different things when they think agency. You know, some people will have in mind Mad Men, you know, Ogilvy, you know, these big creative boards, presentations, you know, that kind of thing. You guys are a little different from that. Tell us, you know, what's the work you do and what does working at your agency look like all day long?
- [16:57]
Co-Host
Oh, yeah, it's a good question. And, yeah, a good distinction to make like I like to tell people when friends ask about, like, where I work and I say I work for a marketing agency, I think they think Mad Men, and I think they think like a big branding house or something where it's like, yeah, Mad Men esque. Yeah, you're. You're standing in a boardroom with.
- [17:16]
Matt Snyder
You look just like Jon Hamm. You've got the square jaw.
- [17:19]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And for us, it's nothing like that. Like, you know, we're, we're a growth marketing agency. Like, we specialize in acquisition and retention services for mostly D2C brands, like direct consumer brands, some, some B2B stuff we, we've dabbled in. But D2C is our wheelhouse. And, and mostly it's like brands that are doing anywhere from like one to a hundred million dollars in revenue a year. So it's just like, it's kind of. I mean, there's a big difference between a $1 million brand and even a $10 million brand or $20 million brand. So when you hit that 100 million rev mark, that's what you're doing for them is very different than what you would do for $1 million grant. But anyway, it's like, brands like Hexclad, we work. These are on a website, so I'm not like giving anything up. But like, Hexclad is one of our biggest accounts in the past, like trx, Grubbly Farms, Fetchy Caselead, the Woobles Dose, Pink Friday Mail, which is Nicki Minaj's brand. I mean, like, we worked with a lot of really cool ones, a lot of good small brands too that deserve mentions. But we, we mainly just do again, acquisition, retention. So paid social, so ads, landing pages, UGC tech stuff, and then retention services. So mostly email and sms and we do a lot of content strategy across all those areas. A lot of consulting with brands like, they might have. We add value to, like, you should change this on your website. You should do that. We don't do websites, but, like, we give a lot of good pointers. But Homestead, when I came on, I think we were maybe towing like 30, 40 people across the whole agency. We're 100% remote, spread out across the US, North America. We have people in Europe, we have people in Asia, Southeast Asia. I mean, it's like we have people that travel all the time. So it's like Japan's the hotspot this year. Everyone's going to Japan this year. For some reason.
- [19:15]
Matt Snyder
I'm jealous. Japan's on my list. I'd Love to go.
- [19:18]
Co-Host
Same. I'm like, why, why would I not invited? But yeah, we're over 70 employees now. Last year we, we went on a big growth spurt, which was challenging in its own right, but like, it's, it's been really good. We've built out some solid teams, so pretty, pretty enjoyable. But like, our goal is not to be the biggest agency, it's to be the best agency. And we would rather go a lot deeper with fewer clients and do higher quality work than just, you know, make a buck and do a bunch of rush jobs. And I think that that kind of focus and that goal, you know, translates into our commitment to development. Like really like hiring top notch employees, but like nurturing those people, nurturing their growth and figuring out like, you know, what do you want to do? Where do you want to be in five, 10 years? And I always tell people, you know, when I'm hiring for my team, for the copy team, like, I'm under no impression that people are going to be at this agency for their entire career. Most people don't go to an agency, be like, I want to work at an agency my whole life. Unless you're like at Ogilvie or, you know, one of the big places. But it's like, you know, you, what do you want to do after this? Like, I want to make sure that when you come in, in here, like, you're getting equipped for what you're going to do after. So when you, you come into Homestead and you spend time here, you're like, I really love who I worked with. I love the clients. Like, just had a wonderful experience. They prepare me for what came next and they were supportive the entire way. That's what I want to hear. So anyway, yeah, we're, we're, we're a strange agency in some ways. But like, honestly, this is the best job I've ever had. It's the best agency I've ever worked at because it's the only one I've ever worked at. But it definitely flies in the face of those agency rumors. People like, they're horrible. You're overworked and underpaid and underappreciated and homes. No, that's not our M.O. at all. And I think a lot of our employees would attest to that.
- [21:26]
Matt Snyder
That's good. So you went from being a copywriter to now you're the copy chief or you're managing other copywriters. How did you do that?
- [21:34]
Co-Host
I don't know. Let me know. No, I think showing that I could do Work number one. You know, when I. So yeah, when I started, I was one of two copywriters that was just doing emails and I think I was on like six accounts. And then we hit a rough spell. We had to let people go. And so then I was the only copywriter and I was writing for, I remember one, one month I was writing for 18 accounts, by the way. That's not sustainable.
- [22:03]
Matt Snyder
Yeah, that's nuts. That's crazy.
- [22:05]
Co-Host
Yeah, everybody knew it. And so there was a lot of grace we had. Our CEO was writing copy and sending it to me for review like it was. Everybody was pulling their weight like we had to do what we had to do. And then we, we finally were able to hire more, more people and grow. And so I think the longevity of my time being there and showing that I could crank out the copy was, Went a long ways and it was good copy. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't half assed. But then that helped. And then as our team grew, like I kind of became, I don't want to say a shepherd of sorts, but mentor. A mentor. Yeah. Like our next copyright. She was solid. She is solid and I will sing her praises all day long. But I didn't really feel like I felt like a coworker to her A lot of our senior team, because we were all in the trenches at the same time. But then it got to the point where we needed to hire, we needed to have a lead copywriter to kind of manage, be the bridge between the leadership team and the copy team and just kind of managing the day to day. And so I think the reason I got promoted into that role is just because of my leadership background from previous life experiences and just my natural candor. Not candor with the team. That's the wrong word. Rapport with the team. Maybe that's the word copyrighted here. Yeah, my national rapport with the team, I think it really helped. And so that kind of evolved. And then over time, like our, as our team kept growing. Like I got taps to help with recruiting and hiring, mainly just getting to sit on interviews and have a say. Cause our, again, like our, our head of staff now, she's phenomenal and she could take, you know, a diamond out of the rough. And so yeah, then last year they, they're like, hey, we're growing and we need your help on the paid side of the agency. Because my, my focus was purely on the retention side. And so they, they promoted me up into the director role. And so they're like, yeah, now you're everything that is copy related agency, it's yours. So that's pretty crazy. So that's how I kind of got into that role. But again I think it goes back to that leadership experience now it's more than just copy. Like I think there's a tendency in a lot of workplaces where it's like, just because your best employee does the best job and can do XYZ doesn't mean they're actually going to be the best manager or leader for a team. And so in a lot of ways, like my senior copywriters that I get to work with, I think they're better writers than I am by a long shot. And I mean Joe Bailey, I'll name them. Like they're fantastically talented writers and could write me, write circles around me. Um, but like I do bring a certain leadership ability to the table that I think helps with the whole of the team. And so yeah, and it's, it's getting, just showing up every day, doing the work, being committed, not not being a prude about it. Um, I think that's, that's all a lot of it's just added to that value of, of growing there.
- [25:28]
Matt Snyder
So, so this interview is happening because I sent out an email few maybe a month and a half, two ago talking about a workshop that we were doing in the underground. And it was about how copywriters can find full time or even part time jobs working with in house type clients. So you know, businesses that might have a creative team or maybe they don't have a creative team, but they're working with freelancers on a part time or full time basis agencies like the one that you're in. And you responded back basically saying I got a lot to say about this. We're hiring a couple of copywriters right now. And, and I gotta tell you some stuff and unfortunately we weren't able to get you on that same training with that we did in the underground. But we've got you here now and I can share some of the stuff that Jessica, my friend who did that, that interview, what she shared. But you've got thoughts about how you get hired as a copywriter in, I mean your agency specifically, but would also be applicable to all kinds of different businesses. So let's talk about some of what are you seeing? What are you seeing that people are doing wrong? And maybe let's start with wrong so we can end on a positive, you know, what should be doing right. But what are you seeing that's just you're pulling your hair Out.
- [26:47]
Kira Hug
Over.
- [26:47]
Co-Host
Oh, man, that's. That's a great question.
- [26:52]
Matt Snyder
And I know, I know we could. We can be kind of brutal here. I know you're not picking on any one person, but there's some stuff that's going on that we really ought to call out.
- [27:01]
Co-Host
Yeah, I mean, I knew we were gonna talk about this, so I kind of wrote down some ideas, things to touch on. And I think before this call, we were talking. I'm like. I mean, I. I could sound really mean, like. But there are, there are. There are people who apply for copywriting roles that have no business applying for a copywriting role. And it's. It's kind of maddening to give some context, like, we just. We open up a role on a Friday morning. I think it was our most recent one, which we're about to put out an offer for, I believe. So don't apply, but put it out on a Friday morning. By the end of the day, I had 98 applications in my queue. And then I was like, great, I'm going to go over those on Monday. Well, it was MLK weekend, so Tuesday I logged in, had like 170 some. And then by the end of the day, we had over 200. I think we ended up with like 206. And I. I DM'd our HR guy. I was like, please take it down. Um, there's no way I can keep up. I'm like, going through these applications left and right and I'm like, I've just seen my queue get longer. I was like, there's. Yeah. This is crazy. So know that when you apply for a job, especially in today's market, like that, that's what I'm seeing as the hiring manager. And it's like, I have a lot to go through. Um, and so to stand out in, say, 206. A stack of 206 applications. I feel like I have something to say.
- [28:29]
Matt Snyder
Yeah, well, and it's not just your agency. I see this anytime I see a copywriter job on LinkedIn and you click through to see what are they looking for? Whatever. Almost always it's like 180 people applied. See where you stand or how you compare or whatever. So this isn't just you guys. This is literally every copywriting job in the world right now.
- [28:50]
Co-Host
Yeah, no, I have. I have a family member who's applying for jobs and she's like, look like the job market is awful right now. And I'm like, no, it really is. I said. And I told her. I explained what Just happened now, like we just got 200 some applications. She goes, I, I believe it. She said, I feel like I'm just throwing my name out and saying a prayer. I'm like, I mean that's basically what you're doing. But so some context. Like what I'm looking for when I hire a copywriter at Homestead, you know, it's, it's not just somebody that can do the job and then clock out at the end of the day. Like I'm looking for a member of my team. Like if I wanted somebody to just write an email or an ad, I would hire a freelancer. But we kind of, we don't try to hire freelancers, we try to hire full time employees. So we're, and we're not looking for somebody who just wants to work here for six months and then leave. We're looking for somebody who wants to help build and help grow. And so I'm, I'm looking for, for someone with long term potential because I know how things operate once they get into the agency. And it's like we really do focus on development. Not just hard skills, but soft skills and then life skills in a lot of different ways. So it's like we're, we're 70 some people, but we're really tight knit and we have a very unique culture or that's just specific. I mean it's just good to us. And so when I'm hiring a new copywriter, I'm looking for someone that's honestly self aware and empathetic, that checks their ego at the door. One of the most important things is that they need to be teachable, curious folks, eager to grow. And they have, that eagerness has to come through, like that desire to learn.
- [30:29]
Matt Snyder
So let me stop you there because as we go through this list, how do you know if somebody is eager to grow or they're, you know, it's, it's one thing to show up on a call and act humble, but then show up with an ego. So what are the filters that you're using to even. And especially because you're looking at resumes and cover letters, you're not even talking to people at this point.
- [30:51]
Kira Hug
Right.
- [30:51]
Matt Snyder
So how do you filter that?
- [30:53]
Co-Host
Yeah, one of the, one of the biggest sells for me, and this is, this is awful. And if you're listening and you do this, if it works for you, great. But it doesn't work for getting my attention, that's for sure. But people who send cold emails to blanket agency lists, that's a surefire way to get on my do not hire list. And it sounds awful, but, like, number one, those emails usually go to my spam. But also when you're spamming my team and they're like, hey, why am I getting a message from this guy? I'm like, just ignore it. And they're offensive because they're trying to get your attention. And so they just say really stupid things like, I'm gonna throw a brick at your window. Okay, well, that. No, like, fired before you're hired. Like, it's stuff like that. Like, I. I don't wanna categorize the type of person that typically sends those emails, but they're usually male and they usually like to flaunt their successes. And there. There's no air of humility about what they write or how they present themselves. So that does come across in your copy pretty well. And I think we all know the brands that are really good about, you know, executing on that ethos and mentality. So to me, it really comes through in your copy the way you answer your application questions, especially maybe in the way, like, you answer some of the questions. Like, every single question I have in our application, I have for a reason. Like, they're intentional and they're to reveal something. I think one of the most. The most telling ones for me is like, we have. I think I wrote it down somewhere so wouldn't forget. But, like, why do you think you'd be a good fit for Homestead and for this role? It says a lot about somebody if they can answer that. Well, just because it's like, if you know enough about our agency and how we operate and how we function and the clients we serve, like, you will answer that question with, like, a phenomenal, like, finesse. But if you just are applying for a job and you just hope that you're gonna get, like, an interview, that comes through too. We just interviewed somebody who she was so hungry to like.
- [33:11]
Matt Snyder
Her.
- [33:11]
Co-Host
Her application questions were very short and brief. We're talking, like, one sentence answers to all of them, which doesn't sound like an easy way to stand out, but they were so good. And I was like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. But one of the things she mentioned was how eager she was to learn from our team specifically. And she mentioned people. And I'm like, that shows somebody who's aware of our team and what's happening, and they clearly follow us. And I knew they followed us online, and so that kind of stuff stood out. So it's like, if you can get yourself out of the way enough and the way you present yourself to show that, hey, I'm interested in helping you become the best version of you or whatever it is. It's like copywriting one on one. Like, make sure you're talking to your audience and say what they, you, you know, they want to hear or need to hear. And I don't feel like enough copywriters approach job applications with that mentality. It's like you're, you're writing a, A pitch. You're writing a sales letter to me for you. Like, use those same tactics that you would for a sales letter in your, in your application. We had, we had a girl. We also interviewed her. She was awesome. Her cover letter was written like an email. It was awesome because she knows how we write emails, and that's what we were hiring for, that email copywriter position. And she gave us different concepts and different ideas, but it was very creative and it stood out amongst the staff. And I was like, this is awesome. But anyway, I, I, yeah, I don't know if that answered any of your question. I kind of went off on a rabbit trail. But yeah, I think it comes, it comes off in your copy. If you're, if you're humble and you don't have an ego and if you're curious like it. It's just evident across the whole of your portfolio and application. Yeah.
- [35:03]
Matt Snyder
So obvious. Obviously, breaking through is huge here because, you know, if you're one of 207 people and you're just sending a resume and the typical, you know, I'm the, I'm a match for the job because of X, Y and Z, you know, I look forward to talking. Whatever. You may be the greatest copywriter in the world, but, but it's so easy to get lost in there that it's in some ways that's making you, as the copy chief or the hiring manager, whoever, do the work of trying to figure out is this person really as good as they say. And so, you know, hearing it is, you know, the COVID letter written as an email or as, as an email that your agency would send out. So they're clearly aware of the work that you do. That stuff stands out. What if, what if somebody sent you a box with a shoe in it that said, I just want to get a shoe in the door or foot in the door, you know, that. Which, which is. I think Luke Sullivan writes about this in hey Whipple, that he had a closet full of shoes because of that. But does that stuff stand out too? Or like, what do you. When it Comes to big ideas. What are you looking for?
- [36:06]
Co-Host
I would, I would, that would be alarming to me because I want to know how they got my address. Yeah, you know, we don't, we don't have a, like a headquarters, so it's not, I'm never going to get a package that you send to me. Like, when clients want to send us stuff, like we give them a spreadsheet with our addresses on it, but they ask. So that would be weird. But I think, yeah, stuff like that goes a long way. The people who stood out the most with this last round were people who had engaged with me regularly on LinkedIn or via email previously, like, had been shown interest in the role. We had people who had applied for a previous position. Last year they applied again and sent me an email. Hey, I applied for this again. And I was like, oh, I recognize you. So the DMs and the emails that are genuine and kind and not that templated, like, you know, I wish this email was a brick. Literally came through today. By the way. I think those, those stand out the most. And I personally, like, I recognize, I try to engage with every single person who emails me, who DMs, me who leaves a comment on my LinkedIn post or, you know, my newsletters or replies to my newsletter emails. I try very diligently to respond to every single one. So, like, if you're engaging with me, like, you can better believe that I'm going to recognize your name and I'm going to recognize genuine engagement. And I tried to reward that with my time. So I think that in today's online world that really does go a long way. And those same people who DM me and email me, they genuinely know what's happening with our business. They know the clients we're working with, they, they make mentions of it. They're like, hey, I saw this email that just went out for this brand. I hope if you guys are still working with them, that was awesome. Stuff like that, that really does carry weight. It carries volume. So you mentioned something about kind of doing work beforehand and, you know, making sure that they're a good fit. That was one of the tips I wrote, I wrote down was I think if people like pre vet themselves for the positions, like it saves me time and it saves them time.
- [38:24]
Matt Snyder
What do you mean by that? Pre vet. Pre vet. Like, yeah, I've never written copy before, so maybe this isn't a fit for me yet.
- [38:29]
Co-Host
Or that, that could definitely be one of them. I think again, emailing or DMing or the hiring manager or even agency. I have questions about position before I apply. Who can I. I asked those questions to. I had several people do that this last round and there were a few that I was like, you're this one. One person, sue is like, if anybody's hiring and they need a senior copywriter, let me know because I will send you her her details. But she was overqualified for the role. And I was like, look, you have an amazing portfolio. Like, you have a great work history. You clearly know what you're doing. You're overqualified for the position we're hiring for because we're not hiring a senior writer, we're not hiring a junior writer, we're hiring a mid level writer. And so if you are wanting to work with us, like, we can't pay you what you're worth. And so like, you know, later in the year or some other time, if we're hiring a senior role, please show your name and hat. But it's going to be evident. And so I think being able to ask those questions up front, like, hey, before I apply, I just want to make sure, like, what's the salary band for this? Or like what's the expectations? Like, is this a mid level role? Is this a senior role? What am I going to be writing or working on? That starts the conversation already. And so that helps you pre vet yourself and know whether you want to put in the time to answer the application questions, piece together a portfolio, that kind of thing. I had a guy email me yesterday, he was like, hey, I want to be a junior copywriter. I've admired your agency for a long time. Would love, like, I know you, who you are because of your work online and I know Homestead because of their influence and place in the DTC world. Would love to work with you, but I want to work as a junior writer. And I was like, look, he was a solid fit for a junior role. We're not hiring for a junior writer. So like, you know, keep your eye on the website, like in our careers page. Like if we're hiring, you need to throw your name in the hat, stuff like that. Like, it goes a long way to pre vet yourself. Make sure that you're going to be a good fit for the role if you have questions. Um, I had people apply that it's like you're a technical writer or like you should be writing case studies. Uh, you write long form content. This is, these are short, quippy emails for E Com brands. Like, you're not gonna like, if you could Pull that off really well. Great. Uh, I've, I'm in my experience, I've seen those kinds of writers struggle to adapt. And in this situation that we're hiring now, we need somebody that can hit the ground running quickly. I don't have time to like train you how to write any email. And yeah, clarity is king. Brevity is key. So, yeah, it's the pre vetting beforehand to make sure that you're going to be a good fit for the position. It could go a long way.
- [41:23]
Matt Snyder
What else should people be thinking through? So one of the things that came up in the training we did in the underground, Jessica suggested that every single role that you apply for, you should probably be rewriting your resume so that it is objectively aimed at what's required for that position. And while that is a total pain in the butt, it's, it goes a long way because you're not seeing the generic stuff on your resume. You're seeing things that apply directly to, you know, this particular position sucks if.
- [41:56]
Kira Hug
You'Re doing this 30 or 40 times.
- [41:58]
Matt Snyder
But like if the key is to break through, you know, that kind of. Or, or you know, the generic cover letter is kind of the same thing. So what else are you looking for?
- [42:08]
Co-Host
Yeah, that's definitely one of them. I, I look at resume for, for me and when I'm looking like, I don't care if you send me a generic resume, I care about your cover letter and I care about your portfolio and I care how you answer the application questions. That's how you're going to get through to me. Your resume is great. It's a great snapshot of your history. I always ask for a link to your LinkedIn. Again, I'm very active there. So I will go to your LinkedIn and I'll look at your work history, I'll look at your posts, I'll see what you're talking about. I'll see how you present yourself so that, that matters to me. Yeah. What your, your resume is great. It's just a snapshot of your work history. I think some, some businesses, you know, it matters more than others. And ours. I'm like, I like to know where you've been and what you've worked on. I think that's important. But like, I want to see the work that you've produced. So your portfolio carries more weight to me than your resume. Because if somebody looked at my resume and you know, I've worked at Blockbuster, I've worked at Ministries, I've worked at, I've Roasted coffee for five years. Like, my work history is all over the map. And so it's like someone's like, you're, you're doing what you're doing now. It's like, yeah, I know, right? So I, I take your resume with a grain of salt. I take your portfolio and the rest of those things with, with a lot more weight. So when it comes to, to like your application, again, I think I mentioned this earlier, but like, I put a lot of thought into the questions that I ask. They are all there for a reason. I asked about AI tools, preferred writing style, why you'd be a good fit for us. You know, the latter demonstrating like, you know, your awareness of the business and what we're actively working on. Writing style is kind of a tell too. I've had a lot of people who, with journalism backgrounds that again, are used to like long form content writing that are like APA style. I'm like, that's not what I'm asking. And that's more than, I framed the question, more than just preferred writing style. But it's like, that's, I'm interested. That's the way you interpret it. But that's not what I meant.
- [44:14]
Matt Snyder
But that's a really good strainer or, you know, a sifter for the right person if they answered that way.
- [44:21]
Co-Host
It really is. It's such a big tell. And yeah, if, if it, if they ask for your cover letter, a resume and a portfolio and you don't include it in your application, it's an immediate no for me. Like, especially like you're applying for a copywriting role, you're applying for a creative position. To not include a creative portfolio demonstrating your ability. Like, man, you're off your rocker. Like, I gotta see this. Like, I gotta see what you're made of.
- [44:47]
Matt Snyder
I recently saw, I recently saw a post on LinkedIn where they were. So they were that specific. It was for a direct response agency. And one of the things, this, you know, it's like, you know, send in your cover letter, your resume or whatever. And then they even went and said if you do not include a cover.
- [45:01]
Kira Hug
Letter, you will not be considered.
- [45:03]
Matt Snyder
Which like, it should go without saying, but clearly people don't follow instructions.
- [45:09]
Co-Host
Yeah, I mean that cover letter is your elevator pitch. So like that cover letter could be the same thing you sent to me via an email to vet yourself out for the position. Like, I mean, it's not, don't make it difficult. But like, include. Helps me interpret what I see before I see it. So I think that's. That's huge. I think who's a. Daniel Throssel has like the anti cover letter strategy course thing like that. That would be worth looking into. I don't know anything about it, but like, apparently it gets results. So there you go. Shout out Daniel. Also, great email lists to be subscribed to. So yeah, that, that's important. I think check for errors. Especially if you are like, I'm a copywriter and you send me stuff that has grammatical errors or mistakes or spelling mistakes. Guys, put your best foot forward. I think another thing that's important, don't insult the hiring team or the business when you're answering the questions. So it's not a place.
- [46:12]
Matt Snyder
Can you give an example of that?
- [46:13]
Co-Host
Yeah. It's not a place to air your grievances about the way an industry operates. For example, or like that that question's being asked in the first place. I had somebody like, why are you wasting my time with this question? Like, you should be asking this instead. And I was like, declined. Come on, man.
- [46:33]
Matt Snyder
I think have you had anybody reach out? It's like, if you had me, your, your website wouldn't be so bad or your response rates would be, you know, 10 times what they are. Like, that goes back to what we were talk out, you know, the, the lack of humility. But that seems really offensive when I mean, I get these. I mean, for me it's, you know, it's like, hey, I can see your website isn't performing. Like, how can you see that? You have no idea what my back end looks like.
- [46:59]
Co-Host
You know, I get those all the time.
- [47:01]
Matt Snyder
Yeah, that's okay.
- [47:03]
Co-Host
Yeah, I've had, I'm not the only one. I've had. I've had people put ultimatums in their application, like, I'll send you my portfolio if you give me an interview. I was like, no, I'm not gonna do that either, dude. I will say, guys tend to be the bigger offenders than women out there. So take that information as you will, but dudes, you need to straighten it up. But I think application. Yeah, resume. Resumes are great. Cover letters are really important. Answering all those application questions is super important. Also, don't answer your application questions using AI. It is very obvious when you do. Last year when we were hiring, we hired two roles, a junior role and a mid level copywriter role. And I had both rounds. I had people answering like. I was like, describe your experience with copywriting or describe your preferred writing style. I can't remember what it was exactly. I removed the questions But I had probably 15 or 20 applications that gave me the exact same response. Exact same response.
- [48:16]
Matt Snyder
Did it have a rocket emoji in it?
- [48:18]
Co-Host
No, no emojis. But I was like, can you just show some like effort at least and change these a little bit? And I had one person that did. It was the same points, just rewritten, but same as everybody else. Like it's an instant no for me. I want you to show that you can think critically and think like how you would think. I don't care how Chat GPT would think or quad or deep seat or whatever it is. I want to know how you think. One person in this last round, they answered the AI question like, yeah, I use AI tools. I used it for this and this is why I used it. And this is how I used it and this is how I changed it. And I was like, that sounds awesome. Like it wasn't, it wasn't like copy paste. One person had copy and pasted. ChatGPT said blank. I was like, come on. So, so don't do that stuff. And then I've noticed a lot of people too, like, you know, talking about boosting conversions on websites and stuff. A lot of this, this is maybe a red flag for, for some freelancers even pitching anybody for anything boasting about the result that they can get client. I would caution people about doing that too hotterly because it's like, I want to see receipts, I want to see the client testimonials, I want to see the LinkedIn recommendations, I want to see the screenshots from their Klaviyo accounts or mailchimp accounts or whatever it is or Shopify Store. Like, I want you to prove to me that your copy really did make that conversion. Otherwise I can't. I have no reason to believe it because I don't know you from Adam. So bring your receipts. I had somebody like, I did this for this person, I did this for that person. I did this for them. And I'm like, I don't know if I should believe you because you're also the same type of person who sends blanket last to just list. You don't know who's on it. And so yeah, I think be cautious of boasting your success. Please boast your success. But there's a difference between confidence and cockiness. And one's off putting and the other's not.
- [50:32]
Matt Snyder
And a good copywriter ought to be able to thread that needle.
- [50:35]
Co-Host
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important we talk about portfolios because I've mentioned this Lots. But if your application doesn't include a link to your portfolio, that's a hard pass for me, brother. I think something that a lot of copywriters that have applied this last round that overlooked is their portfolios were not easy to access or navigate. There are websites that you are just for copy portfolios. So those are fine. They're clunky, some of them. I don't even remember the names of them. I don't. Hot tip. I don't even have a portfolio, but I would make one if I, if I was applying for a job. But like, make sure they're easy to access and navigate and then if you have to password protect it because of client NDAs or whatever, I totally understand that. But like make sure you give your password with your application and then also make sure that password is correct. So I had several people this last round who did not give me a password or they gave me an incorrect password and I was like, ah, detail. You overlooked that. Sure, it was a great portfolio, but you're out. And Again, I had 206 applications to go through. I'm like, surely somebody else is linked to their portfolio. I think, you know, Google Docs work fine, like a Google folder drive, whatever that works fine. Most people come to me that way. A notion database with tags. Had someone send me a notion database that look, it looked good. I know it's easy to put together. The tags are really helpful because I was able to be like, okay, emails, boom. Ads, cool. Landing pages, even better. And so it was like they knew what they were applying for. Like they curated that portfolio. It was clear they knew they'd be writing ads, emails, landing pages and texts. And so that's what they included in their portfolio to me. And I was like, this is money. They got an interview, by the way. And then Figma. Figma board was probably one of the best ones I saw recently. They had just big old figma file. It took forever to load, but once it loaded, I was like this person sick. They did get an interview and they are awesome candidate by the way. But there are categories too, like ads, landing pages, emails, they did websites, they did sales pages. I mean they had, it was everything portfolio. But like I could get to where I needed to go to see what I needed to see. That was, that was great. But I think, yeah, if you're putting together a portfolio, make sure it's specific to the role you're applying for. The number of people who, yeah, they want, they just want to work at Homestead or they just want an Agency job or whatever it is and they send me like long form content pieces. I'm like, I mean number one, I don't know if Claude or Chat GPT wrote that, but also, you know, it's just in a Google Doc. I want to see it on a website, I want to see it live and I want to see the kind of content that you're going to be writing for me. So please include that stuff in your portfolio of whatever you're applying for. Make sure that it's there. If you don't have e comm ads or stuff like that, I accept spec work as long as you tell me that it's spec work. I've had people apply with spec work and it's top tier spec work. Even more. If you look at our portfolio on the website like oh, they wrote for Hexclad or they do emails for the Woobles or whoever it is and then you spec work a piece of for that client. Like I can then see if you really have what it takes to write for us and our clients because I'm giving you that voice. So that's huge. And even if you have content in your portfolio that matches the type of whatever you'll be writing for that agency, it still could go a long way. Hey, I did this for this brand. It's pretty cool. I think too. I love to see designed content. A lot of people send over just Google Docs with their copy. That's fine. We write our copy in Google Docs, we send it to design, design drops in Figma. We send clients the final product to review, copy and design. And so it's like if you have a designed piece versus just a copy content piece, it's kind of a hidden tell. I can tell that you can work with the design team to get your ideas from concepts to like reality. And so I prefer to see portfolios with fully designed pieces that I tend to favor those more. Do it that way you will audience. But I think that really says a lot. What else? Yeah, we talked about curating content to the position. Yeah, I mean those are just some thoughts with portfolios, but portfolios, huge for a copyrighted role. If you don't have one, don't bother. Like just don't bother applying.
- [55:48]
Matt Snyder
That's. Yeah, that's important. So a couple of things are slightly different kinds of questions. We've talked about junior level, mid level and senior level copywriters. How do you guys break those into different bands? I know this differs a little bit from place to place or you know, agency to agency. But there's some pretty good breakpoints I think for this. So what are you looking at for each level as far as experience and capabilities go?
- [56:14]
Co-Host
Yeah, I think we have so Homestead. We spent a lot of time, our leadership team, like developing role progressions. So if you enter, enter Homestead as a junior copywriter, you know what your responsibilities are, you know like what your, these are your main tasks, the main deliverables we, we want you to hit. These are your, your milestones, like your growth opportunities. And so if you want to then become like we have, we do junior copy one, copy two, which those are mid level and then senior copywriter, lead copywriter, head of copy or directive copy, whatever I do. And so if you want to move from a junior to copy one, you know what you have to do to get there. And yeah, it goes a little bit beyond your job description, but it's like showing that initiative. I tend to work with the team, so it's like I make those kind of growth milestones, like your goals. So those are things we work on and you know how long you have to be in that position to qualify for a move up and what you have to do. So they, it kind of does that with each role as they, they progress at Homestead.
- [57:21]
Matt Snyder
So if you're hiring for a junior copywriter, is that a pure beginner or what kind of experience are you looking for there?
- [57:28]
Co-Host
Kind of a pure beginner. I'm looking for somebody that has copy chops. That's what I like to say. They have the ability to write well and they also demonstrate a desire to learn, to be curious. We just interviewed somebody who, that came off the screen. I mean, like it was just so obvious, like they wanted to learn and grow and they, they said, I want to learn this, I want to learn that, I want to learn this, I want to be able to do this. And I was like, okay, you, you know what you need to do. You know what you're capable of now, like, you know where you want to go like this. That's so helpful to me because I'm like, I can kind of guide that and push you in the right direction. It's the people who come to me that are like, I know it all. I'm like, I'm not one, I'm not going to hire you. So a junior writer though is somebody who's hungry, they're teachable, they know they need to grow. When we hire them as a junior writer, it's like you're starting out with just emails and sms like that's it. And the, the big piece for me there is like, I'm going to teach you not how to just write emails and SMS really, really well our homestead way, but I'm also going to teach you how to do content strategy. So you learn to master content strategy. Like that first year writing emails and sms and then you start dabbling into other areas like building out ads, learning how interpersonal connections, communicating well with clients, you know, contributing to internal projects. Like, you start to move up and expand your skills as you move into copy one and copy two. Like your, your contributions kind of expand. So you're not just writing emails on SMS and doing content strategy, you're doing that and you're helping the paid team with landing pages and you might be contributing to ad copy. And so you do that. There's a lot of other details at play, but like growth milestones. And then when you move into a senior role, it's like you're working obviously on bigger accounts, you're working on fewer accounts, but with a lot more depth. And so these might not just be like a million dollar brand a year in revenue. They're like, yeah, they're like the Hun. 50, 75, $100 million in revenue a year. They're a big account. And so you have less clients on your plate so you can do even better work that's more focused and you're controlling the narrative across paid landing pages, email. Like you're, you're kind of helping the whole team with the whole funnel.
- [59:59]
Matt Snyder
It sounds like you're doing more strategy work at the highest level.
- [60:01]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah. And you're like, we have one of our seniors, she's very involved with audits and helping with, you know, pitching new business. And she's really good at deep diving. One of the things I'm really bullish on is having people identify what do you want to learn, what do you want to be good at? If there's a specialty or a niche and the copy space and our industry especially, that you want to get good at, we're going to pour resources into cultivating those skills for you because they're going to be a benefit to us as an agency. And so we have a team that's just, we have some really good researchers with people that are really, really great with creative strategy and developing like, you know, customer Personas and doing customer research and building a really well thought out customer avatar and buyer journeys. I mean, it's. Some of these clients were like, this is just crazy what you guys are pulling off. It's like it's because we, we help our team learn how to do this stuff so they can add the value back to you. So it's like when I, somebody comes in as a junior, I'm looking for potential and somebody level at the mid level.
- [61:10]
Matt Snyder
Then are you looking for obviously they've been doing some of this but are you looking at time like I've been doing this for three years or are you looking at like now I have examples of landing pages in addition to the emails and maybe some other, you know, some of the stuff that your mid level person is working on.
- [61:26]
Co-Host
I'm looking at time, I'm looking at yeah the portfolio. Like if, if you're, because as a mid level like you're going to be doing a lot of emails and a lot of landing pages. I need to know that you have a broader understanding of the industry, E commerce especially than just email. And so like the people who I, who we've been interviewing diligently in the last week, it's like they have a portfolio that supports that and they have experience that supports it. Like I like we're talking to somebody.
- [61:58]
Matt Snyder
Two to three years experience, five to.
- [62:00]
Co-Host
Six is probably, probably two to three. A junior. Like if you have like a year of experience I'll, I'll look at you. But if, yeah if you have like six months maybe probably not a mid level copywriter but a mid level writer. Yeah, you've got like two or three years underneath your belt. But yeah, one of the ones we're talking with right now, she has had experience helping grow a DTC brand in all aspects. So she's touched copy and all the areas. I'm like that is useful to me because you are going to be able to not just execute well on those deliverables. You can empathize with the client. Like you'll be able, you kind of know their pain points and like where their focus is at certain periods of time. So I look at that stuff. Yeah. And then for seniors I personally prefer to promote from within. So I will hire a senior if it comes down to it. But like we have some really, really good writers, mid level writers right now that deserve to be seniors. And so I would rather promote from within into a senior role than hire a senior.
- [63:05]
Matt Snyder
That makes sense. Well, thanks Matt for sharing all of this. It feels like we've kind of opened up the secret door on hiring in some ways. Hopefully it's enlightened a few people and we can improve if we're applying for.
- [63:19]
Kira Hug
Those kinds of in house roles.
- [63:21]
Matt Snyder
Or even part time roles. But if people want to connect with you, I know you're really big on connection and follow up, that kind of thing. Would you say LinkedIn's the best place?
- [63:29]
Co-Host
Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best spot to connect with me. Yeah. Matthew Snyder on LinkedIn. You can also. I have a newsletter. It's free. It's always going to be free. It's called the copy minimalist copy minimalist.com you can sign up. You get access to my swipe file. I add to it every Friday. There's hundreds of examples in there. Um, you can also like on the, that same website you can get a playbook I made about just some principles that I follow when I'm writing copy to keep it simple and short. So yeah, LinkedIn's the best place that. You can also email me my, my email's on LinkedIn. You can DM me on LinkedIn if you want to meet and have a call. Happy to do it. I'm always happy to connect. So yeah, just don't be strangers. Like I'm, I'm an open book. I will share anything. So this is great.
- [64:18]
Matt Snyder
Awesome, thanks. Thanks for being here. I appreciate everything you've shared.
- [64:22]
Co-Host
Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.
- [64:26]
Kira Hug
Thanks to Matt Snyder for sharing his thoughts about getting hired as a copywriter. Did you notice that Matt mentioned many of his writers are better than he is? That's the mark of an agency or a company that hires a players. They want to work with people who are better than they are. They want to bring in new people who add new skills and add to the collective skill set. And if you want to be part of a group like that, you need to bring new skills and new ideas and show off how you're going to elevate that group too. Not just show up and write the thing that your boss hands you. Matt was pretty brutal in his assessment of the people who should not be applying for copywriting jobs. And this is true of pitching for work as well. You have to be able to deliver. There are table stakes even at the entry level. You need to show that you can write, you understand grammar and spelling and can be trusted to get those right. And if you're not there yet, practice before you flood the inbox of a hiring manager or a client that you want to work with. The job market is tough right now, but if you follow what Matt shared, it will be a lot better for you than those who didn't listen to this episode all the way through. And if you want even more help related to finding a real job as a copywriter or a content writer, jump into the copywriter underground where there are additional resources to help you do that. And there are even more resources for freelance writers looking for high paying clients. So everyone should visit TheCopyWriterClub.com, to learn more. Now that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you heard, please share it with someone you know. Or if you don't know another writer or a freelancer who you can share it with, visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review. 5 stars is always appreciated. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends will thank you. Thanks for listening. See you next week.
- [66:23]
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