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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #438: A Minimal Approach to Social Media with Esai Arasi
01:03:51
In the XXX episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with ..... - Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Business of Expertise The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
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- [00:00]
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Rob
To social media that doesn't require you to post 3 times a day or more. This is the Copywriter Club Podcast.
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Sai Arasi
The old approach to social media was to post content that's kind of hard to keep up with. Things like photos and video, with clever.
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Rob
Captions that invite comments and likes, and posting it over and over. If you don't have a team of.
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Sai Arasi
Content creators and algorithm watchers to keep up with the latest thing, you burn out. Or you lose interest and eventually realize.
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Rob
That the effort that you're putting into social media is not being rewarded by the leads and clients that you're looking for. Most of us are on social media to get leads, but how's that working out for you? Most content writers or copywriters posting on Instagram or x, Twitter or LinkedIn are spending a lot of time for very little payoff. That's because social media is great at helping foster connections and relationships, but not all that great at selling organically. I'm not saying it can't be done or that no one else is doing it. Some are, but it's not easy. My guest for this week's episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast is Sai Arasi and and she argues you don't need to post every day or every week, or even every month. Tools like ManyChat help move followers who are interested in what you do from posts to DMs. Using social media to foster relationships that you have with previous clients and referral.
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Sai Arasi
Partners is also useful.
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Rob
Those things don't disappear into the feed after a few minutes, they endure. And switching up your approach to focus on these kinds of behaviors may bring you better results than you've been seeing lately. Stick around as we talk about this and how to do it. As usual, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. We're talking about social media and getting clients to work with you today. And it just so happens that there are additional resources inside the Copywriter underground designed to help you do both of these things. Workshops on using tools like Pinterest and YouTube to grow your audience and attract clients. And still other workshops on engaging prospects in places like LinkedIn and other social media platforms so that you can build relationships that result in high paying client work.
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Sai Arasi
There's not to mention resources to help.
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Rob
You land a real job if that's.
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Sai Arasi
More up your alley.
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Rob
And that's just the beginning. There are dozens of templates, including a legal document worth hundreds of dollars ready for you to borrow and use in your own business. Three entire courses on things like selling, writing proposals that you can't say no to, and building your authority so clients seek you out and not the other way around. Plus dozens of other workshops, monthly coaching, regular copy critiques, and more. You can see what it includes@thecopywriterclub.com TCU and now my interview with Isai Arasi.
- [03:30]
Sai Arasi
Isai, welcome back to the podcast. It's been a little while since we talked on the podcast. You and I have talked offline a few times since then, but catch us up on what's been going on in your business. I think on the podcast last time we Talked was like 2020. So it's been a little while.
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Isai Arasi
It's been a while, yeah. Thank you so much for having me again, Rob. And I'm really excited to catch up on what my growth has been like because when I was last on your podcast, I was still working with you inside the think tank. I was still learning, I was still building all of the systems as we were discussing and I was going through a huge period of change. And I'm really excited today to share the systems I've built, the marketing strategy, the strategy strategies that I've tried, what's working for me, what's working for my clients, what's working in social and in marketing right now. And most importantly, as you and I discussed, I'm going to talk about all of this within the framework of traffic, nurture conversion and figuring out where you need to focus, how you can get the best results. Where I focus personally and if anybody is interested in after they listen to the podcast, they want to know where they should focus on. A simple way that they can do that is sending me a DM called Audit and take my quiz right in their DMs, which will tell them what is their easy win, easy money hook in your focus right there.
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Rob
Perfect.
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Sai Arasi
Okay, so that's a nice teaser for everything that we're going to get to. So last time we talked, you're building your agency, you have a couple of people who are working with you, helping, and you were Knee deep, or maybe even shoulders deep in social media and posting content and doing this for a lot of clients on a very regular basis. And I know your thinking has shifted a little bit on that.
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Isai Arasi
Yes.
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Sai Arasi
So, yeah, tell us, tell us about your agency and how that shift has happened over time.
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Isai Arasi
So since we have talked now, I have grown to about a six member team. We still do social media, we still do content. But as you and I were talking about earlier, social media is one piece of an entire strategy. When I think back, I used to think, oh, I have this groundbreaking new hosting framework which is fantastic and was getting results for clients. And I realized that was just the tip of the iceberg of what was working on what I was implementing for my clients. It was still ahead of its time when we were implementing it, but it took even me implementing the same framework for multiple clients to really understand why it was working, what was happening, and again, understand that in the context of what was happening in our industry as well. So I'm really excited to dive into that.
- [06:28]
Sai Arasi
Before we jump into the framework though, the basic understanding for social media, and I'm mostly thinking of Instagram, but this is Also true of LinkedIn, probably Twitter, even TikTok, is that you need to be posting content. And if you're not posting content at le, you know, at least three times a week, you're not getting seen by the algorithm, you're not building your audience. All of this stuff. And last time we talked, like that was constant. In fact, we were even saying, you.
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Rob
Know, should be in there every day.
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Sai Arasi
And sometimes some people are even saying two or three times a day. And so, like, this whole idea of producing content is. Well, first of all, I think it's scared off a lot of people who just like, there's no way I can produce all of that content. Yes, some people were up for the challenge and they're like, okay, I'm all in. And they quickly burn out just because again, like talking, finding new things or new ways to say old things, like, it is so hard. And so, and maybe a few people have done it and done it well, and we all look at them and think, wow, I wish I had the stamina. I wish I could do the thing that they do, but I don't. So I'm just, I quit, I. I quit social media. I'm not gonna do it. And if, and this is very true of me, you know, if people look at the copywriter club, social media, we don't post all that often, not on LinkedIn, not on Instagram, because yeah, either I've burned out or, or it's just, it feels like such a huge ball to push up the mountain.
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Isai Arasi
So.
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Sai Arasi
And obviously that's become a problem. And so I think you have the framework and what you're doing is addressing that kind of a problem, right?
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Isai Arasi
Exactly. That's exactly what it's addressing. Because what happens often is when we are faced with a problem or a challenge or somebody tells us that this is the next thing that you need to do for your business, we copywriters and service providers, we have the tendency to immediately go into this implementation, right? Like what can I learn, what can I do? Just tell me, just give me a plan, teach me something and I'm gonna go right into it. And we're built for that. We're really, really good at that. Right. And that's why we think anybody tells us you need to create more content, it makes sense for us. We are writers, so we do understand the power of content to scale relationships, to scale visibility, to scale our knowledge and strategy and bring us credibility and authority. We do understand that. But the thing is, so creating content is the second level of strategy. We need to first foundationally understand that what we need is not content. What we need is relationships. And that's why I tell every single client, whether they are selling courses, they're selling one on one offers, they're selling coaching, they're selling done for you, we need to first understand what is it that you need from marketing. And then we can layer whatever platform or strategy fits best, layer that on top of it. Now the biggest reason everybody says you need to post content and you need to be on social is we need leads. And that's the thing, I need leads, I need more, I need more visibility. So I'm going to get on, I'm going to post on social, right? And you and I talked about this. The last thing social media wants to give you is free reach. Now every single platform, it's a death march towards throttling your visibility and throttling your reach. Doesn't matter what the platform is, all of them are moving that way. And anything you can do, somebody else can do better. I love that song. And I tell people that you can't compete on that because as service providers, we're not in the business of multimedia. We're not photographers, video. And there are people who can do it really well. It props to them. But most of us are like you and I, we don't use social media in our personal life. We don't be for the life of us. I cannot take a good picture of myself. It's just I have one photo that I use everywhere because by some miracle, I look good in it. I'm like, yep, that's the one. I look fine when I'm talking to people, but I just look weird when I take photos of myself. So just some of us aren't like that and just we don't prefer it. So the thing that we need to understand is our goal is not content. Our goal is if we want leads, we need to understand what do I need to get more leads? And I tell people, you need to look at your marketing through the lens of traffic. How am I going to get in front of more people who want to buy my stuff? There is a fantastic book that Joanna we recommended called the Business of Expertise. When I read it, it blew my mind. And it just completely flipped the script for me that the more you charge the market, it now becomes the seller's market. Because at the higher level, people need their problem solved a lot more than you need to make money now. Think about it. You are revamping. You're writing somebody's launch sequence. You're writing somebody's sales page. They need that sales page to be fantastic, and they need that sales page to convert like crazy a lot more than you need $5,000. You can make $5,000 doing anything. But their problem is extremely pressing. So the better you are, the more people are going to want to give you more money simply because your expertise now in demand and more valuable. And the more you learn, the more you scale up, the power balance is going to shift more and more and more towards you. Now that's something, as copywriters, very difficult for us to walk. I know it was for me, like, when I started out, I was like, happily taking on any clients. Anybody who said yes to working with me, I was like, yes, I'll take on as a client. And even whether it's a good fit, bad fit, I would try to work within them and I would. Anything went wrong, I would take complete responsibility and say, yes, it was my fault, it didn't work, whatever, and I'll lower prices and do everything you taught me not to do, right? So I did that. But once I started looking at it through the lens of, okay, what do I need, what is my service and what is the problem it's solving, it then told me where I need to go. So the first thing is, social media is not the solution to your traffic problem. As service providers, you need to look at where Are people already going to solve the problem that my service solves for them? And if you can be an in that place, then you don't need to be on social media. In 2021, I posted 40 times on LinkedIn. In 2023, I posted maybe 20 times. In 2024, I posted maybe twice or thrice. I didn't need to because I was already in all of those places where people were recommending me. So you need to layer this strategy. Where is my traffic? Where am I going to get visibility to get in front of people who are already looking to hire number one. And for us, it looks like either it's masterminds, it's maybe it's strategic referral partners. That's what I did. I had two or three referral partners that I kept in touch with who sent me leads. Rai Schwartz recommended me after I went through his program to a few people. I worked with Brenna McGowan in behind the Notch. So she recommended a few people to me. Emily Reagan referred a few clients to me. And the second source, biggest source of clients for me are clients I've already worked with. They recommended more and more people to me. So I didn't need to be on social. So I want. This is the one thing, and I'm not saying don't post on social. Social is important. We're going to look at all of the pieces of the strategy. But I want everybody to fundamentally move away from thinking in terms of what do I need to do and then think about what is my strategy for getting clients. And last time you and I talked, Rob, my strategy was working with copywriters who will then connect me with other clients. Then I refer me to clients, and that's how I will grow. That was my traffic. I had zero nurture. And my conversion mechanism was a sales call. And now as I grow, I'm slowly moving away towards more organized sales systems, which is what I'm here to talk about today.
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Rob
Awesome.
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Sai Arasi
So I, I just want to be crystal clear on this because it's really easy for us to wrap our heads around content because that's what we do.
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Rob
We're really good at creating content.
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Sai Arasi
We're really good at writing scripts, we're really good at captions or stories or all of that stuff. And so that's the frame that we have taken to social media every time we think, oh, I need to be on social media, okay, we'll create content. And what you're saying is, yeah, content, but it's not the. The purpose isn't Just to be posting content. It's not to be showing off your expertise. It's not to be out there saying stuff. It's there for the sole purpose of creating a relationship with either a reader or a prospect or a customer or partner of some kind. And if you can do that with three pieces of content instead of 30, all the more power to you.
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Isai Arasi
Yes. Right up at like right up. And you can get away by, get away by doing this right up almost until like you hit a hundred thousand dollars of, of income, like whatever that looks like when you're starting out. That's more than enough. A lot of people who have sent me clients who've techn, a lot of them have never actually seen my work. Emily Regan said that she, her email just landed in my inbox today. She had sent an email saying skills won't get you high paying clients. And it's true, they don't hire you just for skills. There's so many other things that you need to build. That's what content is going to do for you. And as we're going to talk about that in a little bit, at first you don't need that. You just need to be strategically known in the right places so you can be the person who gets clients.
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Sai Arasi
Yeah, let's jump into how we do that because again it's really easy to write, you know, the post, the article or whatever. But the place where I know so many copywriters struggle is how do we forge that relationship? How do we, you know, even start the conversation so that, you know, three or four chats later or a few months later or whatever. We are the trusted source. So obviously it starts with that, that one or two pieces of content or you know, whatever the initial thing is. But how do we make that switch?
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Isai Arasi
Oh, I'm so glad you asked. First of all, I have done a very an in detail training about this inside the copywriter underground. As Rob you know we broke down the six types of post every copywriter needs to write. So you can, if you're an underground member, you can go in there, you can find my older training and you can break that. You can go through that for in detail. But to answer your question right now, for everybody, if you want clients, the most important pieces of content. I tell people there are three types of content that you need to post. Number one, it tell a piece of content that tells your, and I call it your origin story, like how you became the person. And it doesn't, it's not your origin story of where you were Born and what you say, it's not that, like nobody cares about that. It's an origin story. Like when we watch Superman's movie, we don't care about everything else. Like how he was bullied. No, we care about how he became Superman. That's the only story we care about. So clients need to see how did you become the person who can solve my problem? And that's critically important because that tells me what kind of a problem solver you are right now. And the high paying clients care about that very, very deeply because they do it. They care not just in that fact that my problem is solved, but what that experience of having my problem solved is because I will be more than happy to pay more money for that experience to be better. For me. Money is not a problem for me. The problem is having working with a person who's a great fit. That's post number one.
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Sai Arasi
Yeah, so, and just to make this absolutely clear for me, what I'm doing with that post isn't stuff like, you know, I've been writing since the second grade. I went door to door selling my poems to the neighbors and you know, I took all of the college courses or whatever. It's not that. It's basically my personal story about how I, you know, either solve that problem for the client or for myself. You know, I found myself in this problem so I had to figure out how to. So let's, let's take, you know, this example we're talking about. I needed clients and so I had to create a new lead magnet that was a little bit different from the typical PDF download. And because it was different, it stood out. I got some clients and show you how to solve that problem for yourself. Right. That's the kind of thing. Now obviously people listening are going to have a different, a different problem that they're going to solve for their customers or whoever. But it's not about, I've, I've been writing for 30 years or whatever and it's all about the problem.
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Isai Arasi
Yes. And writing about 30 years, they're only going to care about at the second level. First, they're going to emotionally decide whether or not they want to work with you. And then they're going to look for logical reasons of whether you're a good fit. That's when they need your, your background and your experience and expertise and all that. To give you an example, like you said, I could either tell my story as, hey, I have. I'm somebody who's been writing since I was 8. That's the first time I remember putting pen to paper and writing a story. I've been writing since then. I've been writing and reading since then. That's why I love it. And I have a background in marketing and psychology. I was a behavioral change trainer for 12. I can go into all of that, but nobody cares. Or I can tell my story about, hey, when I started a business, I had no connections in this industry and I didn't know anybody over here. And I was an introvert who did not want to be on social. But unfortunately, social was literally the only way I could keep in touch with everybody who were living multiple thousands of miles away from where I was. So I had to find a way to make social work for me instead of doing what was popular advice. Now, that's a story my audience deeply cares about because it resonates with them. It resonates with the story of their current struggles as well. So they feel like it's exactly as you said. And for you, how you started and run the copywriters club for your audience in terms of, from the perspective of selling offers is that want to talk about how in a time where there were already a lot of people teaching copywriting, but they were more direct response and SaaS focused and all of it. And you realize that like you, you wanted to learn from somebody who had a more relationship focused approach to copy, who spoke to a more nuanced version of copy rather than the brute force, direct response version of it. And you wanted to teach systems. You realize that just knowing copy is not enough. A lot of copywriters, really good copywriters, were struggling like I was struggling. So this, so then that's why you started. You created these offers in the copywriter club. Again, it's the most interesting part of your life for me, because it relates to me.
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Sai Arasi
Okay, good. Okay. So that's the origin story.
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Isai Arasi
That's post number one, post number two. And you can write multiple, multiple variations of this. It's called, I call this, for example, content. Now, this is where. And I tell people the biggest mistake you can make as a copywriter is talking about copywriting. Clients don't care about copywriting. If you go to my social, you would rarely see me talk. Very few posts of mine will talk specifically about social. I talk about trust, I talk about relationships, I talk about working with clients, talk about all those things. But that's the problem I'm solving for your clients. So the second post, it could either be, I call it what's your problem? Or I call it, for example, Content. So this is where you share your expertise. Where you share your expertise in terms of specifically the problem your clients are facing. So instead of saying that, hey, a website copyright copy should be based on voice of customer, nobody cares. Website copy, voice of customer. These are not words your clients are using in their everyday life. Rather, you want to talk about when a potential client lands on your website, when you send them a link, or when somebody's referring them and sending them a link. You want them to read your website and feel like, yeah, this is the solution I've been looking for all my life. It's like it's custom made for me. They need to feel like you are the only person who understands them and their problem. It's. And therefore doesn't matter what you charge. You're the only person I want to work with. That's the difference between talking about copywriting versus the same thing. I'm still talking about voice of customer, but I'm not talking about it from my perspective. I'm talking about it from client's perspective. So I call this, for example, content. Because you have to give an example that they understand.
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Sai Arasi
So ironically, you're talking about voice of customer using your actual voice of customer.
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Isai Arasi
Yes.
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Sai Arasi
Which we're pretty good at doing for our clients, but we're really bad at doing for ourselves.
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Isai Arasi
Oh my God.
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Sai Arasi
Yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, I see this all the time. Copywriters want to talk about copywriting because we love it so much and it's great in a group of copywriters, but if your clients are not copywriters, it makes zero sense. And we've got to figure out how to talk about these things in the words that our customers use in order to break through.
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Isai Arasi
Yes, exactly. And the third type of post. So I tell people, these are three posts that should be pinned on your Instagram. These are three posts you should over and over cycle the more nuances to it that we go into where you need to repeat the third type of post. And again, this is something most copywriter like, I do it and I'm sure you don't do it in email, but you definitely do it on social as well. We don't tell as the right way on social either. We go over salesy because we feel like, okay, fine, this is the promotional post. This, I have two spots open. Work with me here. Or we pull back and almost passive aggressively we just write a random post and like. But you know what, you can also work with me here. It is as like a throwaway. Right. Instead of intentionally Selling. And most of us shy away from selling because we feel like it's an intrusion, it's a disservice. And I, and I'll tell you, it's not your posts that sell. I tell people, like, it's incredible because shopping is like, is is actually called therapy. It's actually retail therapy. People like shopping because it makes them see a better version of who they could be. It helps them see potential solutions to their problems. It helps them see a better future for themselves. And that's what your sales content should be. So I call this like, like a dressing room. Clients should be able, like, people love trying on whether or not they buy it. They love it widely. That's why, like, women love trying on wedding dresses. They go. They love going shopping. They love. They go with the friends and they all try on whether or not they're going to buy it because people love it. That's what your sales post should be. So your sales post shouldn't just be like, hey, this is what my package is. And you know, yes, you should have that so they can have that information, but it should feel more like they're trying on your service. So you should talk about. There are multiple variations of this. You should talk about, hey, when you hire me for writing your website copy, you are not just, not just a website copy. Here's what your life will look like. I'm going to take care of this project step by step, every single way, and keep you posted so you don't have to worry about what's happening. You'll get consistent updates. Since this is a timeline, these are the updates you will get. And I will work with your design. Also, this is the end product that I will give you this wireframe so you don't have to fight 10 rounds with the designer and I don't have to do. You don't have to, like, referee between us. I will directly communicate with the designer and I'll give them a wireframe that they can use. And if you like, I can get in touch with the designer ahead of time so I can make sure that what we're creating is going to come out beautifully. And then I'll work with them and communicate with them directly so it's all off your plate and it is done while you're continuously in the loop. Now, when you present it like that, now that's not you selling, but that's showing, showing me what my future, potential future for me. And now that future is irresistible because as somebody who's currently struggling to write her own Website. Even as I'm saying it'll be like, oh, I love it. I want that for me. That's your third post.
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Sai Arasi
Yeah. So, I mean, that is basically another copywriting technique. It's future pasting, but we're actually showing the customer what the new version of whatever the thing is is going to look like. And so we're painting that future. We're making it easy for them, helping.
- [27:04]
Rob
Them see the actual result or the transformation.
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Sai Arasi
As opposed to saying, you get a website or you get website copy, or I'll write your blog post for you.
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Isai Arasi
Exactly. And here's the thing, Rob. Most people think if I post all of this, I should automatically get clients. But the mistake is that is not going to happen. Social media, at best, is either your nurture or your conversion platform. Social media is not your traffic platform. Social media is not going to take your post and show it to a bunch of ideal clients who are looking to hire. That is not what they want. That is not. They would rather people keep posting saying, I'm looking for somebody. They'd rather people stay on the platform and keep posting like that because it's not upwork, it's not a marketplace. It's just a social platform where they want to keep people on. Right. So you need to figure out what your underlying strategy is and figure out that. Where you're going to get leads, how you're going to convert them, and on what platform. And that's why I think social is fantastic. Even if you don't post a lot, because social gives you public credibility, if the thing I'm telling you privately in an email matches with the thing that I'm saying publicly on my social, I gain a lot of credibility as a person saying that. Yeah, this is what she's been saying. Like, whenever. Whenever I pitch an SEO project, I link back to a post I made in 2020 about what SEO is. That tells them even though it's a very old post, it doesn't have. It has, like, maybe 20 likes. It still tells them that she's been talking about this since 2020. That's how you create the longevity for your posts as well.
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Sai Arasi
Okay, so those are the three. The three kinds of content that we should be posting. How often? I mean, I know you said last year you only posted a few times on your social media, but you also have, you know, some relationships. You know, a lot of copywriters would be saying, okay, well, I don't have those relationships that can send me leads or I don't have the system already. Built. So if I'm just starting out with this or if I'm coming to this and thinking this is a great idea, maybe I should do a little bit more of this or adjust what I've been doing in the past. How often should I be posting in order to get the momentum going?
- [29:16]
Isai Arasi
So if you're just starting out, I would say again, social is not where you're going to get leads. Social is where you need to build credibility because you might not have a portfolio, you might not have results that you can speak to. Like you said, you don't have people who can vouch for you. Like I didn't post because I had people pulling for me. I had built enough relationships and credibility. People invited sent me messages in my DMs asking me to come speak because they'd heard me speak on the Copywriters Club and bunch of other places and I didn't need to do that. But then I spent three years building that. Right? So if you're new one, I would still say once a week on Instagram or LinkedIn is plenty. Where you need to spend most of your time is, like I said, by building relationships. And if you don't have any, here's how you can get started. Number one, and we did an in depth training about this very recently in the underground as well. The four types of people who can get you clients. Again, if you're on the underground, go back and watch that training. I pull back the curtain and share everything that I'm doing for me and my clients. So that's working. And I also shared an actionable guide which is there for the underground waiting for you. If you're a member, go check it out. But to those of you, to give you a little bit of a teaser, number one, you start by creating the three types of posts that I said. These are called bottom of the funnel, like bottom of the funnel content. And you speak to people who are directly ready to buy and already looking to solve their problem. You're not speaking to somebody who doesn't know what conversion copywriting is. They are not somebody who's willing to pay you $2,000 to write a welcome sequence. You want to speak to somebody who already knows the worth of conversion copywriting, somebody who's already willing to hire. But then if they're willing to hire, why haven't they? Because they haven't found somebody who matches their values, who matches exactly what is it that they are looking for. Somebody who either understands their industry, understands their need, is a good fit for them. Whatever that looks like. So one, you create content like that. The three types of posts cycle between them. Post once a week, that's plenty. Post more if you can definitely do that, number one. Number two, you want to look at find these marketplaces. The person who's trying to solve this problem, where are they going? The easiest way to find it is again, where they're already congregating in big numbers. Masterminds, other courses, where these people go to learn from their mentors, those are great places to find them. But if that's not the way you can find them, the second place is, who else is solving a similar problem, but not the same problem as you? A similar problem. Again, we go into more detail in this technique in the underground. But a good example is, let's say you have. One of my clients is a psychiatrist who teaches mothers with postpartum depression and anxiety. So if she wants to reach those mothers, we thought, okay, so how do we reach them? She has a brand new Instagram and it's not going to grow on its own. Okay, so if mothers, they have postpartum depression, what are they already doing before they go to a psychiatrist, who are they going to go to? Easy answer. They're going to go to therapists. Now, therapists are business owners. They are posting content. They are going to in person networking events. They have business profiles online, in directories and everywhere. Proactively build relationship with them. Therapists who are actively also supporting mothers with postpartum depression or mothers with postpartum are also new moms. So they probably have a lot of new mom stuff. So there are probably consuming new mom content. So there are influencers who post a lot of new mom content. That's another place where you can go post support those people, build relationship. You don't have to go after the big creators. Find somebody who has 10,000 followers or 5,000 followers, build them, reply to their emails. You'll be supporting at how easy it is to build relationship because most people don't do it just by the simple fact of posting comments, replying to emails, and being a genuine person. You can, you'll be surprised at how many relationships we can build.
- [33:27]
Sai Arasi
Yeah, there's, there's like a couple of interesting ways to do this too. You're talking about, you know, groups where people are congregating and that's a little bit like fishing with a net. Right? Because there's so many people there and you just kind of scoop out. But there's also an approach and maybe there's a way to do this with social media where we're going directly to the businesses. And there are so many businesses out there that are not online in the ways that we think about, you know, when we're talking about, oh, working with coaches or working with SaaS companies, whatever. And I'm talking about the businesses for, at least for me, they're, they're always out by the airport. You know, it's the, it's the small business that makes awnings for people's backyards and you don't see that showing up anywhere. Or it's, you know, somebody who's maybe, you know, they're some kind of industrial something or construction companies or, you know, like there's all of these companies out there that actually need help doing the stuff that you're even talking about.
- [34:24]
Rob
Right.
- [34:24]
Sai Arasi
And so, but those guys, we're probably not going to find them in a Facebook group or you know, in a LinkedIn group. Right. So some of those were basically fishing with a hook and line. Right. We've got to go to them directly and approach them and say, hey, look, here's the problem that I solved. Now you're still doing the same approach. You still, you know, build it and you can still refer them to your, you know, three posts on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever that you're putting this stuff. But obviously it's a, it's going to, your approach here is going to depend on the niche that you want to work with. And so you've got to be really cognizant of where your customers are, what is that they're looking for and how can you reach out to them.
- [35:04]
Isai Arasi
Exactly. And there are lots of people who are not online. Even within your industry, even if your industry is online, sometimes your potential, your.
- [35:13]
Sai Arasi
Clients are not online, need help doing that stuff.
- [35:17]
Rob
Right, so they may.
- [35:18]
Isai Arasi
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like one of my clients, he is a fractional growth executive and he works with VCs and CEOs who are not online because they are very busy running their own business. But the thing is with, instead of trying and trying to brute force into finding these people on social media, an easy way to build, easy way to do it is build relationship with people around them. So instead of VCs, we started going after people within the, within the VC organization. There are people who are online who do go to in person events, the middle management people who go to in person events, they host on LinkedIn, they comment on each other's stuff. So we build relationships with them. So while the VC is not on LinkedIn, but when the VC, so the VC is not going to go headhunting, they're not going to see a LinkedIn post and say I want to work with you. They're going to turn to the people they trust and say, okay, who do you know?
- [36:13]
Sai Arasi
Right.
- [36:14]
Isai Arasi
They're going to ask if they're depending.
- [36:15]
Sai Arasi
On their team to do a lot of that work.
- [36:17]
Isai Arasi
Exactly. The CEO is going to turn to the manager, HR and marketing manager, and say, okay, who do you know who does this? Who'd be a good fit for us? The key being would be a good fit for us. And you need to show up as the person who is a good fit for us. And it's a fantastic point you brought, Rob. So that is what the traffic portion of this is. You need to find the right traffic source for you. Sometimes, like you said, it's fishing with the net. You find a good, you find a good pool and you sort of throw in a net and be there. Sometimes it's about throwing in a fishing rod and just waiting patiently and hook it if you're looking for the big fish. Sometimes it is going after specific people. It is like driving door to door. You send out cold emails, whatever that looks like. So the traffic can be whatever. But the thing is, if you don't do the nurture pieces, if you don't have a strong social media, and I tell people strong social even more than strong website, because you know that I still don't have a website. I built a multiple six figure business and I've grown an agency and I worked with some of the best, some of the biggest names in the industry despite not having a website because clients don't care about that. A website is credibility and trust and I had another way of earning that. So I didn't focus on the website. So we need to be clear on these three pieces. Always ask yourself what am I trying to achieve by building that? And if that is going to serve any of these three pieces, anything that doesn't serve to build your traffic, nurture your traffic and convert them into clients. We're going to talk about the conversion piece in a little bit. If it doesn't fit into these three, it's not a thing that you need to be doing. And then you also need to look at is this the best way to get traffic? Is Instagram the best way for me to get traffic? If like you said, if I'm the person I'm trying to reach, run runs a garage door repair shop, cities shop.
- [38:05]
Sai Arasi
Yeah. So you need a home base where they can double check. They can see that you've got the authority, the expertise, but that's not where you're going to be building that relationship.
- [38:13]
Isai Arasi
No, it's not. And social, again, one aspect of social is content, other aspect is relationship. And again, we dove into this in detail. But you need to build both professional and personal relationships. And I don't mean personal as an intimate, but I mean personal as in a friendly relationship with your clients as well. So when the professional relationship ends, you can still keep the personal going until they become ready to become a client again. So you can pitch to them next because you have a line of communication open with them.
- [38:46]
Sai Arasi
Okay, so we've been going really deep on traffic. We've kind of touched on nurture. Is there some other stuff we should be doing with nurture before we get to the last part of the framework?
- [38:56]
Isai Arasi
So for nurture, it's about continuously showing. Like, that's what I say. That's where the social piece comes in. Like, for nurture in the early stages, you just need to show up. People need to know who you are and what you do, and that'll be enough to get you those data clients. But when you start going after those big clients, nurture becomes a lot more crucial for you now, because now you need to have those bigger pieces that not only tells clients who you are, but also builds your credibility. That's when you need to start building case studies. That's when you need. I'm writing my website now because now I am starting to go after the bigger names in the industry by my own strength. So I need. I'm writing case studies, I'm building websites. So nurture becomes more important. But again, you need to look at what is my strength. You don't need to do reels. I did one reel, I hated it, and I never did another one again. Because no talking head reels, sharing clips of things, sure, but dancing ad mad libs? No, not my. Not my thing. I don't want to do it. Not because it doesn't work. It works. Not for me. So you need to be clear on what is it that fits you well and that's sustainable and you need to do that. But the most important thing is find a way that's sustainable for you or you will burn out, you will stop and you won't do it again. And then it will constantly feel like you are starting from zero every single time because you haven't built a sustainable practice field.
- [40:20]
Sai Arasi
Okay, so then the last step really is how do we convert these people relationships into customers.
- [40:29]
Isai Arasi
A lot of this, Rob, and I have to give this to you, a lot of this is stuff that I learned from you as we worked together. Because until then I hadn't really understood what systems and processes inside a business could look like. And I didn't realize why they were that important either, because it was like the way that I was doing it was whatever it was working. Because again, at that point I was working with two clients and that was it. But as soon as I started growing, I realized how critical those pieces were. And a lot of this is stuff that I learned inside, inside the copywriters club. The communication systems that we need to build, the proposal and the follow up sequence, and all of those things that we want to build, those become more and more crucial as you look to grow and especially as you look to work with better and better clients. Your conversion mechanism, it has to match what it feels like for the clients to work with you. Your conversion mechanism, the higher and the more you charge, your conversion mechanism has to be more reliant on your skills, your credibility and your past results. For me and for a large, large part of, for all of the copywriters, our conversion mechanisms are sales calls, right? And we think, yes, DM me, get on a sales call with me and we leave it at that, right? But which is fine when we're getting started because the clients we are working with are smaller level clients as well. So they were happy to get on a call because they wanted to negotiate, drive the price down. And they were happy to spend 40 minutes talking to you if it means they could get like a $200 discount on the service that they want to pay for. But the more, the higher clients that you want to work with, that's not going to cut it anymore. Then you need. The one resource that I really love is that business in a box which has all of the pieces that you could implement, like your proposals, your email sequences, your onboarding forms, your offboarding, all of it. These pieces become extremely critical. I've had clients tell me that multiple times that your onboarding is like chef's Kiss. Like multiple times. I hear that from my clients and I always think back to my time with the carburetors club when I was, when you were mentoring me. That that's like, like four years, five years later, it is still having a huge impact in the way that clients work with me. So your conversion mechanism, you need to say, even if it is sales call, you need to understand that not everybody will want to jump on a 40 minute sales call with you. So you need to have those pieces built. We talked about case studies as a nurture mechanism a little bit as well. But now you need to intentionally think about what your bottom of the bottom of the funnel, bottom of the funnel conversion content looks like. You don't need to write a weekly blog post, but you do need to write content that tells your best, that speaks. It's like a dog whistle to your ideal client that this person gets my problem and this is their way of solving the problem is perfect fit. For me, that's extremely crucial. Now that's another thing you recently talked about that as well. The USP unique selling point is no longer enough. It's no longer enough to have your framework. You need to have this, you need to have your way, your point of view, your looking at a problem and your point of view of why it's a problem and your point of view of how you solve it. That's critical as well. So the more money you want to charge, the more you want to look at those, you want to build, invest in and build those pieces so you're starting to convert more clients. And the worst thing in all of this is, Rob, as I see my clients and I talk to people and sometimes I like, a lot of times I do it as well, is that when we don't intentionally build these pieces, we feel like we're not getting leads. But often in so many rooms, especially if you've been a part of any of the accelerator programs. I know, Rob, you're so intentional about building a community and making sure people have relation like solid relationship building within people as well. I know that there have people have come to me and said I've owed so and so said so many amazing things about you. And I wasn't even in the room. But that person said that because how intentionally you make sure, whether it's the accelerator or the think tank, how intentionally you made sure we all knew each other, knew how to support each other, knew what we did and you built a referral network for us without even really meaning to do that. So there are so many times we have leads, there are people talking about what we do and how we solve a problem in the rooms. But because we don't have these pieces in place, often leads drop off and we feel like, we feel like we are burning out because we're doing the wrong things instead of doing the easy things to get clients.
- [45:37]
Sai Arasi
So these conversion pieces don't live on social media. They're either in your funnel or on your website. Or part of your onboarding process process, or your vetting slash, discovery call process. How, you know, however that's structured, this stuff lives outside of it. But the relationships that we've built on social media or in the DMs, or wherever that starts to happen, because people find the one or two pieces of content that we've posted that leads to.
- [46:05]
Rob
These areas where we can now get.
- [46:07]
Sai Arasi
Them, you know, into, I guess some people would call them like indoctrination sequences. Really. It's just a way for people to get to know you better and how you solve the exact problem that they have that's happening not on Facebook, not on social media, but somewhere else.
- [46:25]
Isai Arasi
Exactly. And we touched on this a little bit, Rob. Like, right now, we're in the third phase of social media. We talked about. Social 1.0 was when social media need more, needed more users. So it asked everybody to sign up and refer your friends and import your contacts, and it showed everything that your.
- [46:43]
Sai Arasi
Friends were posting, right? Like, yeah, it was amazing because you could actually see what everybody was up to.
- [46:49]
Isai Arasi
It felt like you were in touch. Like, it felt. It was. It was like a cat being in camp. It was so amazing. And then came Social 2.0, where now the platforms needed more content to keep all of the users happy and satisfied and keep using the app. So anybody who created content, there's so many users, you would have seen that they. They grew so quickly and now they've completely stalled out because they were riding the algorithm wave where it gave them a lot of free content.
- [47:15]
Sai Arasi
I saw that with our, with the copywriter club groups, which were immensely popular because there was content going in there. And obviously Facebook has changed the algorithm. And, you know, if I post something in a group of, you know, thousands of people, only a couple hundred people.
- [47:31]
Rob
Will see it now.
- [47:31]
Sai Arasi
And it's, you know, it wasn't that way four or five years ago.
- [47:35]
Isai Arasi
No, it was not. And now Facebook recently announced that Facebook lives will be deleted after 30 days, and you'll have up to 90 days to download the video. Because they don't want to store the video. They have tons of content now. They don't want to keep your content. Now these lives, then your Facebook groups were a way for you to save all of this valuable training that people can visit and revisit and learn from you. Now it's no longer an option. So platforms don't no longer care about you. That being said, another interesting way that people are now, like I said, this is Social 3.0, where people social, they don't care about users. They don't even show you in your Facebook feed. 90% of the content feed is either ads or from random accounts that you don't even follow, which they think you would like. And they keep shoving it in your, in your feed. That's going to starting to happen more and more. But how users are now behaving more and more and not a lot of people are doing it, Very few people are doing it right now. And you can be ahead of the curve by implementing it right away is lot of content now needs to be native first. I used to say that yes, case studies should live off of social. You should get people to download your case study, download the PDF and forward the PDF to each other and all of that. Now the last case study project that we did, we also converted that into a case study carousel that can live on their social because now people don't want to click and go to a page and download and they don't want to do that because most people now use the Internet on their phones. So they would prefer to have the content natively in the app. So I can click it, I can tag somebody that I know, I can quickly share it with them because again, platforms have made it super easy to do all of those things. So it's much easier, easier for me to do it that way than for me to enter my name and email and all of that stuff. That is why the quiz that I told you now, my quiz that I've built, I've built it inside Instagram. It doesn't even have a webpage at all. It only lives inside Instagram natively because one, it's super easy for me to collect name and email and do the whole quiz in there. It's also very, very easy for the users from somebody coming to my profile to take that natively because sending DMs on Instagram is easy, whereas clicking it, opening it, scrolling and typing, that's a little bit harder. So we need to be more savvy in the way that we leverage these platforms so we don't become slaves to them, but we understand what's working and what's not. And we use the best parts of social and the best part of all of these platforms and make it work for us and fit our lifestyle and our requirement and make that a more sustainable practice than try to put everything. So for new copywriters, that is good news for you. You don't need to create like, and I am a perfect example, you don't need to create, you don't even probably need a website right at the start if you can build those intentional relationship a website is good. I might be the exception. I do tell people that website brings a lot of credibility to house that you should have it. But again, don't let that stop you. Put everything on your social and start with what you have. Because the key thing here is to build relationships and build that trust that that is the asset. And I tell people like funnels decay, social media posts lose their visibility and reach. Even SEO blog posts, Pinterest pins, they lose traffic over time. The one thing that doesn't ever lose its potency and continues to grow and grow over time is relationships.
- [51:13]
Sai Arasi
As long as you keep nurturing them. Yeah, as long as you're contributing to it or you know, interacting, you know, keeping them up. And there is, I mean I don't want to minimize this at all because there's definitely work involved in maintaining a relationship. Obviously, you know, relationships come and go and sometimes you go through, you know, a period where you may not talk to or share anything with somebody for pick things right back up. But if you are looking at relationships to develop work for your business, you do need to put some work into nurturing those. And that's not, you know, by posting content. It's not even, you know, the stuff that we've talked about through this framework. It's not about the traffic, nurture, conversion. It's really just about like, how do I keep showing up as the friend, as this trusted resource when I see something that's helpful? Do I keep showing sharing, you know, and, and doing that over and over and that's what produces results.
- [52:08]
Isai Arasi
Exactly. And if you post the right type of content, you can continue to be friendly and be like a human being in your, in the DMs while your content will tell them, hey, this is what I do. Here's how you can refer me, here's how you can work with me. Here are my best fit clients. And you can keep educating your referral partners. A lot of us get bad referrals from the people we like and we can't say no because it's sent to us by somebody we really like and respect. So we worked with bad fit clients for peanuts. I've done that. Every copywriter I know has done that. But the way to circumvent that, like you said job is to do is to keep the relationship alive and to educate your reference partners. And again, an easier way to do that. These relationships at scale is again creating more content, but nurture resonant content rather than going for reach. Make sure your pieces of content are reach. Are built for the right people, for the right reasons, rather than for the algorithm. And keep the relationships alive. Keep. Keep lines of communication open and the content will do its magic of nurture and conversion and tell people, hey, this is what. This is what she writes about. And here's our best fit clients. And as soon as somebody. Somebody asks me for a client, I know who to refer to because his content has been educating me all this while. Well, you've been keeping in touch with me maybe once a week or once a month.
- [53:30]
Sai Arasi
Okay. So this is all really helpful. So as we were talking, you mentioned a few mentors that you've had over time. You know, by name, people that you've worked with and created relationships with. And I also know that you've invested a lot in, you know, courses and improving your skill set and even for your team, the people that are working with you to make sure that they're up to date and the skills. Will you just share your thoughts about courses and mentors and where the value has been for you and your business?
- [54:00]
Isai Arasi
Okay, thank you for asking this, Rob, because I think in this investment has been a single biggest needle mover in my business that has made the biggest difference. And I'll tell you, your different seasons in life, you have different needs. When I was absolutely starting out, I needed. What I needed was courses. The very first course that I remember investing in was a YouTube. YouTube for bosses by Sunny Lenard. She was fantastic. I mean, I was watching YouTube videos by a bunch of other people. Again, it goes to resonance with a bunch of men, Sean Cannell and like a lot of other people. But I never felt the pull to buy any of their courses, even though they're selling heavily. But as soon as I saw Sunil and Hadoozi's courses really spoke to me, the way she approached it.
- [54:47]
Sai Arasi
And Sunny's really approachable.
- [54:49]
Rob
She's.
- [54:49]
Sai Arasi
Yeah, she's a great personality.
- [54:51]
Isai Arasi
She's fantastic. And I loved her approach. I loved her reasons for why she's the same thing as me. She didn't want to burn out. And that's how she built her YouTube as a sales engine. So it was easy for me to invest in her stuff. And I have been very lucky in the mentors and people that I've invested my money in, because Sunny has literally sent her a DM and she's asking about a course that she was an affiliate for, and she's literally told me, no, that's not the right fit for you, don't buy it. I've been very lucky in mentors like that. So that was the first one. So when you are absolutely starting out, invest in courses that build your skill. You need to be first good at what you are doing. That's absolutely fundamental and I tell service providers this all the time. The easiest way to build your business and just get more clients is to be ridiculously good at what you do. That's the first thing I invested in. Be so good that people can't help but talk about you wherever you are. And you know, we've done that as well. Good movies, good books, good people that we have, good doctors, we go out of our way to tell people about them. Good hairdressers, people go out of the way to recommend them because it gives them social currency. So be ridiculously good and invest in courses and skills that do that. Again, more importantly, the courses that you do invest in, implement them. Show up for calls, show up for courses. A lot of my deeds only came through by me showing up and like implementing. And I couldn't tell you like I was in a. There are so many times I've had one on one coaching from Rice Schwartz and Phil Povis for like every week for like an hour because nobody would show up for that call. And I was like, I can't believe I'm getting this. This is like such a steal. But because I was showing up week after week and I was doing the work, I was demonstrating my skill, I got a lot of leads from Rhyme directly because he saw that I understood what he was teaching and I was implementing that. So when anybody said oh can somebody do this for me? I was a no brainer answer because I learned from him. But once you have done that, the second place I highly recommend investing in mentors. I invested as you know, Rob, like I invested in the think tank. One call with you was an easy yes for me even though at that time, and I've told you this before, like at that time I didn't have the money for this. I had just taken a huge hit in the business and I had just hired two people. But I intentionally made the decision to join the think tank and continue to say no to bad fit clients because I believed in the first call where I got on a call with you. I still believe this conversation because you listened to everything that I had to say and you said that you could easily see me ask me what my goal was. I was very hesitantly I said $100,000. You could say you said that I was lowballing it and you could easily see me hitting 200 to $50,000 easily just based on everything that I had shared. To me, that was like, mind boggling. A hundred thousand dollars at that time was like my, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm earning this much kind of money. You made me believe in bigger things. A lot of times when you're trying to grow, yes, you need systems, and I tell people this also in the masterminds, no matter what level you're implementing, the conversations are all the same. How do I get more traffic? How do I nurture this traffic? How do I get my offers to convert? How do I get more people to buy? How do I get this client to sign this proposal? They have ghosted me. The conversations are all the same. It's just the scale at which they happen are different. And I tell them that courses can give you a framework. Do this, which are great for learning skill, but when you want to learn business, you don't want a course saying, do this. You want a mentor who can listen to you and say, okay, here, okay, this is who you are. So for you, I would personally recommend this. Which is why I love the fact that every year, every time you launch, you run the accelerator as a live call program. Even though the content is more or less the same, you could easily just sell it as prepackaged lessons. I love that you run it as live courses because every time you customize it for each person and you make sure that every single person gets that individual attention to them and their business, and you do it so well, so efficiently, it, like, bothers my mind every time I hear that. So I would recommend working with mentors at that point. For me, that has been huge because there's no way I could have learned from courses what I learned from the individual attention that I got.
- [59:23]
Sai Arasi
Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing that. I found something very similar, you know, as I've worked with the various mentors who I still refer to and think of as mentors and can reach out to for help. There's so many generous people in the marketing world and the copywriting world who are willing to help. The best way to get in front of them, of course, is to, you know, join the program or, you know, by a course. But those are relationships also worth, you know, nurturing and building and maintaining for all of the reasons you just said so. So thanks for that. Okay, aside, we're out of time, but share one more time where we can find the quiz in order to go through and figure out, you know, what is the stage that we're at, what we should be looking at and how we get in touch with you.
- [60:11]
Isai Arasi
Absolutely. So my most favorite place to hang out is LinkedIn. You'll find the link, I'll give you the link that'll be in the show notes. But to take my quiz, find me on Instagram at Social Catalyst. That's Catalyst with a K&DM me audit. It'll be there in my profile as well. It'll be easy to find. I only have one picture that I use across all socials, so you'd be able to find me easily. And again, my name is not that common. So either search for Esai or search for Social Catalyst. That's where you'll find me and send me a DM so you can take the quiz right at the DMs and.
- [60:43]
Sai Arasi
We'Ll link to it in the show notes just in case somebody doesn't know how to spell your name or can't find you on that initial search. So the people will know exactly where to go. Thanks Sai, for everything that you've shared and reframing for me how I think about social media and what it's for and how often I have to do it. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, how, how this all builds, you know, business for myself and for those who are listening. So thanks again.
- [61:10]
Isai Arasi
Thank you for having me. Rob.
- [61:18]
Sai Arasi
Thanks Isai, for the update on what's working on social media and how.
- [61:22]
Rob
We can be more effective in using this tool to connect with our audiences. Sai mentioned a couple of workshops in the Copywriter Underground about the six types of content you should be posting on social media when you're ready to post.
- [61:33]
Sai Arasi
And the kinds of clients that you.
- [61:35]
Rob
Should be writing free for. To get those workshops and everything else the Underground includes, visit TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU I want to go back to something that we were talking about early on in this episode and that's your origin story and we were talking about this in the context of social media, but it's often the thing that you include on your about page as well.
- [61:55]
Sai Arasi
There's a popular idea out there that.
- [61:58]
Rob
Your about page isn't actually about you, it's really about your client. And of course there's a lot of truth to that. Mostly, yes, the content on your about page needs to resonate with your prospects. They need to see themselves in your story there. But that doesn't mean that it's not also about you.
- [62:14]
Sai Arasi
You do need to tell your story.
- [62:15]
Rob
There because people want to work with the people that they like and know. Recently I've seen a bunch of about pages that almost entirely leave out the origin story or any reason or way to get to know the copywriter or content writer who is actually putting the page together. So yes, write the story about your client, but also include enough about you so that they can get to know and like you and hopefully move on to work with you.
- [62:42]
Sai Arasi
I also want to mention what Isai.
- [62:44]
Rob
Shared about selling we Again, we're talking about one of the kinds of social posts that you should be sharing. The approach where you are solving a problem for a client and taking that concern off their plate and showing them what the future looks like. It's worth repeating over and over. I've said this dozens of times on this podcast, but your number one role as a copywriter or a content writer isn't actually writing, it's problem solving. Now often that problem requires copy or content, but not always. And a professional looks for the big problems to solve, not just for a copy assignment. This is a big part of how copywriters need to be selling themselves in the future. AI can write content, but it doesn't always have the context that you might have in order to solve a problem like you do. And we need to be doing more of this in our social media. In the posts that we share now, hopefully you found what Sai shared valuable and helpful as you look for a better way to engage prospects and clients on social media.
- [63:42]
Sai Arasi
That's the end of this episode of.
- [63:44]
Rob
The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know. Or if you don't know another writer or a freelancer who you can share it with, please visit Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review. Five stars are always appreciated and I promise when you share the Copywriter Club Podcast, your friends will thank you. I thank you for listening and we'll.
- [64:05]
Sai Arasi
See you next week.
- [64:20]
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