Wix Ad (5:03)

Yes. So dear list listener, we were just talking about how before when we talked and then I was a panelist at the Copywriter Club in real life, which was whole wild because it was early 2020. At the time I was A New Yorker. I was living in New York, I was power walking in Adidas, I was launching programs and having memberships and doing day rates. And then since I have one life, moved to Arizona. I am now in cowgirl boots all the time. I line dance, I met a man, we got married. Just like at the time this airs, it'll be about five months ago that we got married. And I am now, after being in the tech world for a while, gone back to my roots of ghost writing. And so that's what we're going to dive into today. And I'm really excited about it. But I do think it's almost apt. That I'm gone back to my roots of ghostwriting. Because now at this point, at the day of our conversation, I have been a California born native in the Bay Area, I have like bicycled the beaches, living in SoCal, I power walked in New York City, I road tripped the country for eight months alone with my cat in all these other states. And now I'm living this Arizona country dancer life. And so I think all of our experiences channel into what we're meant to do and what we're meant to do and how we show up as copywriters and ghostwriters. And part of mine has been being many different people, even as me, let alone ghostwriting for other people.

Rob Marsh (6:39)

I don't think this is an uncommon thing for copywriters. Obviously we come from a wide range of backgrounds and oftentimes we lived, you know, two or three lives or we've had two or three different careers or whatever as we come to it. So it's interesting that you mentioned that as an intro into ghostwriting, because ghostwriting involves basically stepping into the boots of another person, another person's life, and telling the story or talking as if you're them. So I guess let's talk about how do you get started? So I know we'll talk about ghost writing books in a minute, but. And that's what most people think about when they think ghostwriter. They're thinking, oh, I'll write a book. But there are so many ways to do this. I mentioned before we started recording, I used to ghost write blog posts for a CEO. So let's talk just ghostwriting across the board. You know, what does it involve and how do we get started? That's a really big question.

Wix Ad (7:33)

Yes, absolutely. And I would guess there's quite a number of people listening who are currently more identifying as copywriters or content creators. And this morning I was rooting down, I was really wanting to feel really, I don't know, prepared and just hunkered before this conversation. So I had this, like, coffee and I was at a coffee shop and I was writing through. Okay, what to me is the difference between copywriting and ghostwriting? And I think what it boils down is, at least in my spirit, when I'm copywriting or ghostwriting, copywriting is like, you're helping create this brand. You're capturing the essence, but you're often helping to build it. Right? You're helping determine if there's an almond pancake batter company, like, are they a sassy one or are they more organic based. Right. Like, you're helping create and determine the story. But a ghostwriter is like this real person or an organization or group, but most often, or an individual who you're already working with a voice, like a real, living, breathing person who has an essence. And rather than creating it, you're often helping to understand and extract. Who is that actual person? Because as we know, and we will talk about, a lot of people we know do not write how they talk. Like, the real person they are is one way. And when we're ghost writing, some of the resistance we're going to face and some of the pushback methods I'm going to talk about is helping people actually be who they are and tell, like, the real stories of who they are. But I think a lot of us, for getting started, if we've been in copywriting, you know, we think of, okay, we're, we're creating a voice, we're, we're creating a Persona. And then ghostwriting, you're kind of shifting into a lot more question asking and going, okay, who is this person? What am I pulling out? And for me, on my own journey, I'm gonna be honest, I became a ghost writer and did not know it because I didn't know what the. I didn't know the term. And to your point, I thought ghostwriting was for books only. So when people asked, hey, could you come and write this article for me? Hey, a magazine asked for me to put forward an article and do a layout. Can you write that for me? I didn't know that was ghostwriting. I still thought that was just content creation. So just a shout out, some of you could be ghostwriters and you don't actually know it or haven't realized it. And for getting into it, I think a lot of it is, like, naturally, when we're working with people on copywriting projects or we're creating content, some of it is just offering and putting out there, hey, you have articles coming up. Have you done video scripts? Like, we start putting things out that are just more personal that are from the person. Like, hey, I've been working on social media, hey, I've been working on a landing page or I've been working on abc. But what about emails in your voice? What about articles from you? What about what are things that are building your thought leadership and come from you that I could ghostwrite for you and capture your voice? Because I think we would be shocked. I mean, Rob, you won't be shocked, but a lot of us might be shocked. How many people, it terrifies them to write in their own voice.

Rob Marsh (10:51)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So as I'm thinking about this, I think there's a really crucial distinction obviously between creating content and creating content in another person's voice. But also there's a thing that maybe not a lot, but some clients certainly deal with this. I'm like this when I hire somebody to write in my voice. The few times that I've done it, even though what I get back is really good, it doesn't always sound to me like me. And I know I have really frustrated a couple of copywriters who have written things for me that I'll go in and I'll change it. So maybe this is not a common thing, but possibly it is. I'm guessing that the questions or the way you get to know your clients helps you overcome that. So can we talk a little bit about that? Let's say we've been hired to ghost some content. How do you ensure that you're actually capturing their voice and not your voice?

Wix Ad (11:48)

Yes, this is hands down, I've been doing this for over a decade now. And the number one question you nailed it is this very tentative, cautious voice that says, hey, because they don't want to offend you or they're trying to be careful or they've been scarred and they say, how are you going to sound like me though? Like, how are you going to get my voice? And so often I'm sure, Rob, you've seen it. A lot of our listeners have experienced this in similar ways or other ways. There is something, it is the most personal thing, right? Our voice, our words, like hiring someone to an accountant job or bookkeeping. There's even a designer, like designers. Yes, there's personal, but it's, there's another level of emotion that goes into these are my words. This is like who I am. It's a very identity based thing that they're hiring for and there is a lot of fear. There's a. There is so much. There's so much fear for certain, because as humans, we care so much about perception, right? And how people perceiving us and understanding us. I once did, well, ironically, ghostwriting for a public speaker because she was amazed with public speaking, but she really questioned herself when it came to writing. And she said the reason public speaking is the number one fear in the world is because at a biological level, you are standing on a stage with all your organs exposed, which sounds so, like, visceral. It's like, oh, your aorta and your spleen. There's like, all your organs are exposed. And based on how people perceive you when they think of you, you're all vulnerable. You can be killed. And I think a lot of us feel that way with writing very similarly of how I'm perceived. What are people gonna think and is a biological fear. So when people ask this on repeat, I'm definitely not frustrated or offended or over the question. My heart just goes, oh, oh, this. Like, yeah, they're just scared. So what I. What I tell them is this. And then I'll share some exact methods I use because as we talked about, I just. I do some weird things and some funky things. I don't know. I don't think they're typical for a long time. I mean, before I was in the copywriter mastermind, I didn't go to copywriter school, so I feel like I just did weird, scrappy things that ended up working. So what I always tell people is I start with, hey, I want you to know I'm not here to be me. I'm here to obsess. Like, I tell them. I'm like, I. I'm here to obsess on exactly, like, who you are and how you sound when we talk about feedback. I cannot be offended. I want to know what you is you. The real, genuine you. And I, like, share some of the things I do to help capture it. But I really emphasize to them, like, I am not here to be offended. And then I ask about almost always, honestly, like, are there reasons you're nervous? Are there concerns you want to share with me? Because I cannot even put into a number count how many people have then shared. You know, they hired someone and sounded nothing like them. They took their LinkedIn profile and, you know, tweaked it. They, you know, didn't sound like them. And when they tried to give feedback, the person got mad at them. You know, all story after story of, like, scarring and so I just really encourage anyone who's listening. And you're interested in being ghostwriter or growing in your ghostwriting capacity. Like, you are the consultant. You're the authority here. And you get to ask questions and lead the conversation and, like, with, like, a true, sincere, full heart of, like, hear their fear, ask things back to them, find out what's going on. Like, dive into it. Because a lot of people have had experiences that were rough and it didn't sound like them or the person was offended. Now, okay, so for some things that I do to obsess and get into their mind. So, one, I'm obsessed with tangents. I usually plan for the first call to be 90 minutes, because the first 45 minutes is usually the person telling their story, and it's a story they've grown very comfortable with. They probably tell it all the time. It's familiar. It might not even sound like them anymore. It could be them from a few years ago, I went into this, and then this is my journey, and here's blank. So I let them get it out of their system. Honestly, I'm just. We're getting it out of the system. It's like clockwork. About 40 to 45 minutes. Then I can start the real dive into their voice. So once we get that 45 minutes in, I'm like, oh, my gosh, hold up. You mentioned this. And I often try to point to things that at first might be a bit of a, quote, tangent. So let's say you are writing for someone who is a health practitioner, and they work with women who are pregnant or like, they're a doula, something like that. I don't first go into. I don't want to go so deep, only on their actual expertise, like, for an article. I want to start asking them side questions. Because what happens is we are. If we're being interviewed, we're naturally going into this more formal way of speaking. Like, I'm sure the way each of us talk on a formal interview, especially if we were younger and we're being protective of our voice, is not the way we talk to our friends and family. It. It's. It's for sure.

Rob Marsh (17:18)

I mean, more than. More than that. Like, I think sometimes we hold back because we're. We're afraid to get vulnerable or fair, to make ourselves look, you know, less than competent or, you know, say something that might make people question our expertise. Like, there's all kinds of reasons, I think, that. That somebody would hold back.

Wix Ad (17:37)

Yes, exactly. There are so many reasons. And as a ghostwriter, Some of those things are going to start to come out or naturally will come out, because you're going to be tapping into things that are emotional, especially to get the stories and the thing that the person actually does want, right? The. The client wants to be real. They want to be themselves. But it's often a little harder. Not what they expect to get there. Because if they're used to, you know, being interviewed or they want to put their story across, they're not always seeing themselves in the. It's like the classic, you know, inside the jar, you're the peanut butter jar. You can't see the label, right? If you're the peanut butter, you're tucked in the jar, you can't see that you're like the crunchy cinnamon. You just know you're peanut butter. So we're helping them see that they're crunchy cinnamon. And so I love to put, like, these tangents a little bit. I need to, like, get them out of their typical elevator pitch, their typical story mind. So they mentioned, like, North Carolina, and they're like, oh, you know, when I was there, that's when we transitioned and we lived by the beach. You're like, oh, one second. You live in North Carolina by the beach. Tell me, like, were you a surfer? Like, I just, like, throw in these questions and they're like, oh, my gosh. I actually always wanted to, like. And their real voice will start coming out, and you have record. It's great. So you're getting in their real voice. And we need to just break it up, because we'll come back to their industry. We're going to come back to the article, back to the book. We're going to come back to the things we're writing about. But we need to. We need to loosen up. We need to, like, get a break to release their real voice. I'm almost seeing it, like, you know, glow sticks. So married. Married five months ago. We had glow sticks for all the kids, which, of course, the adults also ended up picking up and wearing, of course. Yeah, naturally. We had 17 kids at our wedding. And so glow sticks everywhere. You have to break it to get it to light up. But it's with love, right? You're breaking it with love. So we need to, like, break it up. So get them talking about different things. And that is so much of my favorite part of what gets used in the ghostwriting process. Because now you're writing an article or the book, right? Or the email that is from that person, from that expert, and we get to drop in these nuggets that are really them of like, you know, if you want to be healthy the way I always wanted to be a surfer when I lived in North Carolina. And we only get those if we break them out of like their usual spiel which I sounds derogatory but it just true. We really do tend to get comfortable and certain spiels in our stories. So one, I get them on tangents. I also I love to get voice memos or to talk to people while they are walking. This is so game changing. There is so much power and you talk to this person, you get the interview, you go, hey, I'm working on a few things. I'm gonna follow up with some questions and I want you to do something that's gonna sound weird. I would like you to do a voice memo while you are walking. And I think when we are on a computer or we're in front of someone at a coffee shop, we're in, we're in this more formal interview mode. And a lot of I, I, I think there's, I'm sure studies on this and accuracy of this. But even just in personal experience, I think a lot of us can relate. Where do a lot of us have the best conversations, the most raw, honest ones? To me it's in the car. Because you have two people who are looking forward. Relationship experts will say, let's say especially for men, but I'm sure it's for both. There is a freedom to be more open and vulnerable when we don't have someone staring us in the face.

Rob Marsh (21:19)

I hadn't thought of that, but that's probably true. Yeah, right.

Wix Ad (21:23)

There's something just your eyes can wander. You're looking at the open space if you're collecting your thoughts or you need to pause. Because a lot of us, if we're telling stories, we need to pause for a moment and we feel awkward if someone's just staring at us in front of us. But if we're walking, if we're driving, there's an openness and I believe environment dictates a lot of how we feel. So if we want to be open, what's a great way to do that? Be an environment outside that's open. So I love sending a few core questions like tell me about a time when like give some specific story examples and then tell them go on a walk. I know it'll be weird. I love to, I call it out. I acknowledge everything I believe in over communicating with my clients and for why I'm asking them to do things like I want to get you out of the house, I want to get you out of your computer. I want to get you away from it and just share word vomit. Don't overthink it. Because the more someone is walking and talking and now they're staring at dogs and then they run into their neighbor, like you are going to get a more real and real version of who that person is to capture their voice.

Rob Marsh (22:28)

This is probably the wrong time to ask this question. Maybe a little bit backward or maybe I should have started here. But before we go too much farther in this whole process, it occurs to me that there are a lot of companies that buy content and they're producing content or they're hiring people, copywriters to write content. From their company perspective, that really ought to be doing more ghostwriting from the founder perspective or maybe from, you know, some other team member who's. You're part of the face of the company when you're ghostwriting or you're working with clients. Do you wait for clients to realize that or is there some conversation that you have with a company that, that you're saying, hey, look, rather than looking at this blog post just from the company perspective, I actually think this should be coming from the CEO. And if it's, if it's that discussion, what does that discussion sound like?

Wix Ad (23:18)

Yes, absolutely. And the next kind of methods I can share about that I'll go into are if you don't have that control because there's a lot of people, if it's personal. Right. You can ask them to take a walk. You can ask tangent some people as you to your point where sometimes it could be the CEO, you're working with a big company, you don't always have a certain level of access to someone to dive in and the time. So there are definitely things we can do to still capture their voice, sound like them. So just wanted to make that note. Yes, that is a. I, I have that conversation all the time. All the time. I remember like last year alone, I, I should have just started doing a little tally on my wall like in chalk or something of the amount of times I go hey, I. And this is kind of my language for talking to people is I love that we're going to talk about this piece. I love we're going to channel this. I love this is your mission. Can I be really honest with you? I think I. That's probably one of my go to phrases because it's probably surprising if people say no. I think most people want you to be honest with them. Right.

Rob Marsh (24:31)

Can I be honest with you? No, actually, I would like you to continue lying to me. I'm not sure I've ever heard that answer.

Wix Ad (24:36)

Yeah, exactly. You're like, no, I want to be in. In denial or no, I don't want to face insert. So can't be honest with you. I've never had someone say no yet. So yes, I'm like, I'd like to share something and it might be different. So I always do a little context. I do a little lead in. Because there are certain things if we just slap on someone, they might react. So I think it's important if it's something that maybe they've. Maybe they have written as the company for a long time. I mean, there was a company I talked to about this and they had literally 30 years they had written third person.

Rob Marsh (25:11)

Wow.

Wix Ad (25:12)

As the company. So, you know, we also want to be mindful of like, where we're coming into and what's the context. And so if it's something new, something that could trigger defensiveness or fear or. But. And I'll, I mean, I, I almost always hear the same thing. So I will definitely share what, what I. The objection I always hear. And it's funny because we always end up ghostwriting as them after we, you know, go through a few more questions and they sit with it usually is. Is going, hey, I, you know, give that context. I'm going to share something. I might feel a little bit different. Am I feel uncomfortable. And I'm going to tell you why. I think this is going to be a huge important thing for your business. But I think it's going to be something really amazing. Even if it's a little uncomfortable at first. And they're like, okay, okay, you know, you're, you're gearing up, up a little bit. I think uncomfortable is a good world word because it's not bad. It's not terrible. It's just uncomfortable for a lot of people to have a voice or if it's a marketing person going, I don't know if the CEO will want that. You know, just uncomfortable. And then I want to, you know, third person is this general company. It's a general mass. It's not somewhere speaking to. And I'll be so direct if it's the CEO who's separate or often it is the person on the call even going, you are the leader. People want a name, they want a face. They want someone they can talk to. And I'll give examples of companies that I know they can relate to. I Will give them, hey, this person from this company, think about you. Get an email from this company. Like humans, we want a face, we want a name, we want someone to hear from. We want personal. Especially in this world of AI and mass numbers and volume. And oftentimes when it's the CEO or the founder, it is, it is really them that a lot of people first found out about the company, or it's why they're drawn to the company. And so I really call it out. And it almost always makes them uncomfortable. They usually are like, no, no, no, I don't want to make it about me. So I'll go, hey, like they, it's you. Like your voice, your story, your perspective. It means something. It creates the human experience, the human touch. And that is the objection I get, is the number one objection I hear when you are pushing back and challenging. Let's make this first person ghostwriting, not this third person. Ominous. I won't say blob that sounds like a sad, negative connotation, like an ominous blob of a company, right? Where you don't know anybody. So like a mass thingy. Thing is like, they don't usually want to make it about themselves. So many times I have heard CEOs, founders say, no, no, no, I want us to be about the team. It's about the heart, it's about the mission. I don't want to plaster my face on everything. I don't want to make it about me. And often what I'll tell them is whether or not they like, does come down to them, it is often about them. Like they, whether they're a known CEO or less known, like the founder, their story like that is what people care about, I think, about Charity Water. Anyone listening? If you know Charity Water, yeah, it's.

Rob Marsh (28:26)

A great charity, people. I mean, if you're looking for a charity to donate, it's at the top. It's. It's an amazing charity.

Wix Ad (28:35)

Yes, it's so good. And the reason I think so many of us even know about Charity Water and have a heart for them is his name. Scott Harrison is so open with his story. Like, when I think of Charity Water, I see his face. I think of Scott. I think of their YouTube ads. It was one of the few full length, very long YouTube ads I have ever watched. Was Scott telling his story of being a club promoter and being in this nightlife and like living this wild, you know, life. He goes into all the details and then his transformation and then going around the world and seeing this need and there that story is what got my heart into charity water. But honestly, if they had just stayed corporate, yeah, that did good in the world. It would not hit the same. It just wouldn't. And so I think going back to like, you have ownership as a ghostwriter, as a copywriter, you know, you're an expert. You are being paid to lead someone. Like, you are being paid not to be dominated by this person's voice. You are being paid and invested in to host this voice and give your insights and to be honest with people, like, even if they find it at first, even it's uncomfortable. It's like if you were hiring a financial advisor and you were throwing money at something that they see is going to, like, be a poor reason for insert A, B and C. You want them to be honest. You want them to tell you, hey, I really don't think you should do this. Here's why it's a good thing to lead people. And so I have that conversation a lot saying, your voice matters. Your story is what's going to draw people in, why you founded this company, who you are, your experience. I know it's uncomfortable, but already it is actually about or from you a lot. And so, like, can you let us try telling that story? Are you open to letting us try it this way? So I think there's a lot of that kind of language I implement to.

Rob Marsh (30:31)

Soften it that makes sense. As, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the companies with CEOs that really stand out, like they, they're in the lead. You know, companies like, you know, Apple and Steve Jobs, right? Or Amazon, Jeff Bezos, for better or worse, you know, Elon Musk's companies like people who are. And, and as I'm thinking through this idea of should a company have ghosted content or plain content, it seems like those companies that don't, that are maybe more generic, the ibms and Hewlett Packards or whatever, their founders have moved on. And so it feels like it's really natural if we're working with founders, people who are running their own companies, they've started it like it should be their voice. There's probably an argument for those other companies where the founders moved on, that there should be another voice, you know, a leader that personalizes that brand. But I mean, this isn't even really a question is I'm just kind of working through this in my brain, like, who should, you know, who are the great clients for somebody who wants to go strike content? And again, if you've got a Founder, it's like a no brainer.

Wix Ad (31:44)

Absolutely. And especially, I mean, a founder is a great person because as a founder, they have a lot else on their plate. Even just if we go logistically, not even skill set wise, but logistically, a founder is having vision, they are hiring, they're running the teams. Like we know that ghostwriting, good impactful content and words, it takes a lot of time. Whether that is an article, whether that's an ebook, whether it's a full length book. A founder who's running, even if it's a tiny company or a really large company, they don't have that space and bandwidth. And oftentimes the skillset is different. Right. A lot of my people who are founders, they are, they're visionaries in a sense of like the big picture. They're directing people, they're directing teams and writing. There is vision. And also we are detail oriented. We are sitting there googling synonyms or using Claude AI for like, what is the perfect word for this one Headline. Right. It's a deep focus work. So I think it's a great fit for ghostwriters for people who are founders of companies. Yes.

Rob Marsh (32:53)

Another thing that occurs to me, a difference between copywriting and ghostwriting is the emphasis on stories. So, you know, regular content, you know, you can say the thing or tell the thing. Obviously that's not best practice with copywriting, but it happens a lot in the content world. With ghostwriting, really, the way to personalize is, I mean, the whole reason to even have a ghostwriter is to pull out these stories. So, you know, let's. Can we talk a little bit about what you do to get people's stories out and tell their stories in unique ways?

Wix Ad (33:25)

Yes. I am such a story addict. I'm sure a lot of us are, all of us who are gathered here, you know, whether wherever you are in the world, whether you're doing dishes or you're driving or you're walking, you're probably nodding because as writers, we are storytellers. I am the person who am at coffee shops and I am, ha. I'm in my work. And then sometimes I'll pop out my headphones because there are great conversations going on around me. And I am, I am taking it all in. I'm absorbing, I'm making notes. That's what I did a lot of my road trip. Since I was road tripping alone for over six months, I would go to these random spots and sit outside and I just have, I have notes on notes in my phone of stories. Right. That we're capturing. And I think there are different ways to capture stories for ghostwriting, right. For their content, whatever the format is in, in different ways. So let's say it's someone you don't have as much access to or you have more limited time. I love going deep into just all of their presence on the Internet and that doesn't have to be new. In fact, I think there's a lot of beauty of going farther back. So going deep back through someone's social media channels, going way deep back in their Instagram, where they might have even been another company or lived another life, that's actually really great content because you can see their background, get these stories or all these things you can drop and pop into their content and they will be mind blown. I'm telling you, they will go, how did you even know that about me? Oh my gosh, like, yes, this is actually about my life. Because they will be so shocked on how well you've gotten to know them in ways they didn't, wouldn't. They wouldn't even think to tell you because you go back five years and you see, oh, like they were a kickboxing instructor and you're like going back to the classes they used to teach and now you can reference in their ghost writing, like, oh, I'm going to blank. You know, it's funny, I used to go to this, this boxing gym back in Detroit and they're like, how did you even know that? And you. It's all going back through. Also, if they've been on YouTube, if they've been on podcasts, you know, anything you can do to get their voice, I will literally just play my client's YouTube videos while I'm writing as them just just because I'm hearing their voice. So the more that I hear their voice and their words, I can, I, I. It just fills my brain with them. And then I'll make notes on phrases I notice tend to repeat on words they tend to say. So for example, there's someone who I was ghostwriting as and she has a podcast and I noticed that when she talks about a memory, she always says whenever I was blank. So I would write that down. So then I read her email and go, you know, whenever I was blank. And like those like capturing the experience, exact phrases people use that honestly, y'all, they probably don't even know that they use. Like, they probably don't even know they say certain things. I have a client who is from the north of Ireland and it's so fun to get to ghost right as her. Because my family's from Ireland, so I am half channeling, tapping into my own family and my aunts and things I naturally notice from, you know, going back and forth to Ireland my whole life, certain very Irish phrases. So she will say certain things. Like the way she says like she will insert like, like oh, like oh my, oh my blank or oh this. Like she has these very certain phrases she uses and I write them down and then I put them through her copy. And I remember the voice memo I got from her one day when she said this is. I did not know I said these things are these unique. I'm like, oh, she has a very global audience. I go, oh yeah, they're very you and they're very Irish. She goes, are they really? I'm like, first of all, what you just said was very Irish. Yes, like it is. So I think any things you can do to take notes and really analyze the patterns of how people speak makes a big difference. Plus the like very specific, tangible references to things in their life.

Rob Marsh (37:35)

So as you're working with these clients and ghostwriting for them, are you bringing them ideas to write about saying, hey, I, you know, I noticed this about you or notice this about the market. Everybody's talking about this thing. I think we should address it. Or are you letting them dictate what you're writing and you're just contextualizing it to their voice?

Wix Ad (37:52)

What I would say tends to happen is people have a general what they think they're going to talk about and there is sort of this co creating that ends up happening because they might come in and say, hi, I am launching this, I need emails and articles, you know, ghost written on this topic and, or you know, with this book, I see talking about this. But then as you start talking to them, as you start really getting to the heart of what do they want to say, what's going on? Some very often a different, at least a semi different story starts to come out. Like themes start to come forward. Like there's something they keep bringing up. Like you start to see where it actually ends up going and going. Okay, actually, I know we you're saying you want to talk about this, but it sounds like this is coming up a lot. Look at these questions because let's say it's someone who has a community like an app, and you go through that app and you see that these members are all talking about one thing. You're like, hey, but this is a big question, so why don't we address that and we can kind of merge it with, you know, you're launching this thing. But let's like speak to the real question going on. AI is a great example, right? AI, like any major technology in the history of our world, flipped all these people on its head. So if I was taught doing a business launch and I'm launching something on pricing my programs and all these people are fresh to AI coming out and are freaking out that what is going to happen to business are robots taking over the world. Because that was the number one phrase I heard when I was deep in with tech clients and apps are robots taking over the world. And if we don't mention that, it seems almost a little odd and we can still talk about the launch. So, like, hey, we're launching this program, you're going to talk about article and articles, you're going to talk about your business perspective. But like, I know you have thoughts on AI. I know you said this in your private, you know, consulting calls, in your group membership, like, why don't we tap into that? So I think there is like this element of kind of co creating with the person where you're bringing ideas and you're bringing things forward and you know, kind of going off of like what their intention is. Because in my experience, people aren't usually showing up just with no vision, right? Especially like a founder or someone like that. They usually have some goal they're working towards, like some, some intention. They're not usually purely going, I have no idea what to say. I just need words in the world.

Rob Marsh (40:29)

I know you like tangents, so I'm going to tangent here on AI for a second since you mentioned, you mentioned both tangents and AI. So do you use AI at all in your process for ghosting? And I mean, the reason I ask is obviously like, if I hired you to write for me, you could take a bunch of podcast episodes or some of the trainings that I've done in the copywriter underground. You plug those transcripts into AI and have it identify like a lot of those quirky things that I say. Maybe it's some of the things I hate that I say, you know, as I listen back to myself.

Wix Ad (41:03)

But obviously, by the way, when you tell people sometimes things they say, they go, oh, I don't like that, but it's you.

Rob Marsh (41:09)

Yeah, I know, I see my transcripts and I know how often I say dumb little phrases as fillers and it drives me crazy. But do you use AI like that at all or are you all in on it's you're a human. I'm a human. We're human. Created.

Wix Ad (41:27)

I. I see. I. I had this metaphor come out of my mouth recently. I don't remember where. Somewhere virtual. Coffee shop. Not sure. But my sort of metaphor that came out for AI was it's like the mannequin in a. In, like a shop. So you're walking. You're walking in the mall. It's like, you know, it's high school. You have an idea for, you know, like, oh, I want to wear something to insert event. And you see a mannequin, and someone took the mannequin and sort of said, oh, you could wear it like this. Here's an idea. But if you walk in and just take the outfit, one, it might not even fit you. Like, it might be. I mean, I could be. For someone who's 6 foot 1 and I am 5 foot 5, like, that is not going to work. Or there might be elements that aren't quite right. Or like that. That. That is. I love the skirt, but, like, that's not really my favorite color. I'd wear it in this color. And so I see AI as this great way to prompt suggestions. And I don't use it as much. I know people who use it a lot more. More than me, I'm sure. Less. I. I really use it at times to kind of. I just use it. I use. My wording is. It gets my juices flowing. It's kind of like the mannequin. I see the mannequin, I see the outfit. I'm like, ooh, I hadn't thought about polka dots with stripes. Oh, maybe I could combine other patterns. And then I. It gets my brain thinking. So with AI Certain things, I. I mean, honestly, I use it so much for synonyms. Or if there's a phrase, I keep somehow saying the same, like, word strategies. I'm like, oh, what are other ways if I'm trying to talk about strategies that I, you know, and, like, getting those sort of ideas. Um, I think sometimes if you're trying to get, like, a really basic framework just to map out, like, format. So, for example, I remember one time I used it because I was mapping out a webinar for someone. I was writing everything out for them in their voice, and I'm like, okay, I know I need. I'm going to have a webinar. I also know I tend to go over on slides. I'm like, at 30 slides only. Give me 30 slides. 30 slides. We're going to break into a story at the beginning. We're going to talk about five things. And then we are going to need to wrap it up with a call to action. And what AI did is it just mapped it out in terms of like, literally, like, okay, you probably want about five slides for story. This many slides for this. And honestly, I just saved myself, you know, 30 to 40 minutes of mapping something out that's really not what my brain needs to go. Like, the client has hired me because they want me to extract their voice and do that. And that's not really. There's nothing they're gaining from it. If AI did that formatting or if I did sort of like I think about going to the doctor's office and they. How often. How long do you see the doctor in an appointment? Not actually that long.

Rob Marsh (44:26)

Yeah, unfortunately, only a couple of minutes.

Wix Ad (44:28)

Right. It's pretty short because they know the doctor has such an expertise that they're. They just need them in the room for when they need them. Someone else checks you in, right? Someone else checks your insurance. Someone else takes your vitals, like all these steps. So I think AI is like my vitals taker of like, okay, maybe it maps this out. Gets my juices flowing with like, oh, man, these headlines are sounding ratchet in my brain. Let me try some new things or give me some synonyms or like just some prompts. But then when I'm really. When I'm bringing out the stories and I'm getting their quirks, I'm going in at this point, like, you know, I really instill mo it's me and my brain, because I feel like the way we are going to pull it out and bring it in is, you know, AI, yes, is a tool, but we are like a human with insight. We're talking to someone, we're hearing their real voice. We have all these stories in our brain. Right. I've spent hours listening to them on YouTube. I've been combing their Instagram. All these, like, facets that are coming together in my mind of, like, how to plug in the stories and use their voice. And then like you said, I think that's a great idea. Actually, I have not done that. Brilliant. Take the scram, trip the transcripts. What are the common phrases that get repeated? And then go in and plug some of those in. Perfect. That that'd be a great way to use it. But I think we can be a writer and really own being unique. And it doesn't take away to use AI if it's used as a tool. And we don't have to be downcast and Downtrodden of, like, AI is taking over. It's like, oh, no. It's like the Internet. It's like Google Docs. Like, I could use a typewriter and print it out and white it out, but I'm really doing it in vain, like, when I can just type it on Google Docs. I also do own a typewriter. Side note, but that's for fun.

Rob Marsh (46:15)

Yeah, well, now I got questions about typewriters, but I want to talk about ghostwriting. So I know you have started to switch from writing smaller projects, like, you know, blog posts or other things for your clients, and you are now moving into ghostwriting books, which, again, is what most of us before, you know, chatting today usually think about ghostwriting as. So can you talk a little bit about that? Switch from short form to long form, and, you know, what other things we ought to be thinking about as we reach out to this kind of a client?

Wix Ad (46:49)

Yes, absolutely. I think what's really interesting is we can get so used to the worlds we're in that we aren't thinking about other possibilities or if there's certain walls we keep coming against. I have found in my journey in entrepreneurship and in career and honestly, in life, like, if there's some wall I keep coming up against, there's a time to sort of step back and go, okay, is there some reason. Is there something that needs to change? And for me, and I will be so curious on, like, how many people listening feel this way, I realized one of my walls and one. One factor that could be a sign you're a fit is to go into pursuing ghostwriting books or, like, longer formats is if it feels like you're almost cutting your clients off. And what I mean by that is I get so deep with my clients. I mean, I'm in their worlds. I know about their lives and their kids and how are their pet doing? We're holding up our cats to each other, like on Zoom, and our cats are chatting. And, you know, it's. It's. It's a. We're so deep in it with each other and, you know, doing a sales page, doing emails, doing these launches. Right. We have a more limited time. And I think I reached this point of I love writing as people, I love serving them, but I feel like it's so short and I keep almost cutting them off. You know, like a therapist where, you know, the person really started opening up and they're like, ah, we really gotta cut this time, because this is a short session. And this is all, you know, this is the Bandwidth I have. And so I think what started to hit me was, oh my gosh, it's because I meant to write longer form. I love getting into people's world. I love spending hours creeping on them. I always tell my clients this line, I always say, you cannot send me too much. So I'll say, send me your brand guides, send me the past videos of you, send me articles you've written, send me your favorite emails, send me the data on your emails and what performed. Like, I am a high input person. I want to see it all, I want to take it all in, I want to observe it. And so it started to click. Oh my gosh. Because with a book you have this opportunity, you're actually supposed to go that deep. You're supposed to know you can't know too much about them. Like you are capturing them and embodying them in this really deeper format. And so that was something that really started to hit me of, like, why do I feel like I'm constantly having to cut things and end things so short and it's, it's not feeling right and like something's feeling off. So I think that was a big one. And then second, I always love to do these check ins of what am I personally really passionate about? Like, what do I obsess on in my free time? Like, what are the things I'm going into? What are things I'm looking at? And I started finding myself going, okay, you know, I spent a lot of years deep in so many memberships and courses and I was like, really, like in so many areas of my life and it was amazing. But I kind of moved into this place of I, I'm, I'm at core a book lover. I'm sure as writers, almost all of us are right. I, I have always had such an obsession. There was like a rule at our dinner table that you can't have books because it was that severe. Like we'd be sneaking books under the table of like, like just obsessed with books. Writing books from a young age always was. They were all stories about like orphaned animals that were trying to find parents or this is, this is so dark. But I just found this story I wrote in fourth grade and it was called Alone in the Forest of Doom. And it was this girl who had been kidnapped and thrown in a forest to die.

Rob Marsh (50:35)

Yikes. And then it's about your brain. Yeah. A young brain. That's scary.

Wix Ad (50:40)

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, oh, we love therapy. I love, I love, I know it'll be my next Session. I'm like, hey, if there's anyone else who wrote dark stories as a child, please, my Instagram and all that will be in the show notes. Hit me up. We can talk. Yes. Yes. This character was thrown into the forest, and she has to survive and, like, fight her way out, like, make it back to her family. And at the end, like, the. The mom is saying all these words to her of, like, love and how much they missed her, and they just want her to be safe. And it's so wild because as an adult, I can see now, oh, that was. That was definitely stuff my mom said to me that I was. That's what I was doing. Right? Young as a. As a writer and a ghostwriter was, like, taking cues from the world around me. But I think when, like, you, like, you know, you think about the things you love. Like, I have gone back into my love of reading all the time. I'm an English lit degree. You know, that was, like, what I studied. And I think there was a period where I was a lot more deep in memberships and courses and learning in that way. But who am I actually? What do I actually. What am I currently drawn to? And in the last few years, it's books. Like, when I. I'm constantly referencing some book I'm highlighting. I'm sending copies to people I have, you know, like, the ruthless elimination of Hurry. Oh, my gosh, the amount I have talked about that book by John Mark Comer and what is done and reset in my life. And so I think sometimes if we're feeling this confusion on what am I supposed to be pursuing, what are. What should I be doing? Part of it is like, what are. What are you naturally drawn to? And so when I think about how much books have changed my life, that is a big one of. Oh, I think that's actually when I want to pursue writing because I believe in the power of books. Like, when I am talking about ghostwriting someone's book, I'm not selling someone. I'm not selling someone trying to convince them of something to, like, some way to use me or, like, pay me. I legitimately am, like, with my whole heart. Every ventricle and aorta is going. Your story would change lives. And if you do not tell it, there's all these people that would be so impacted. So it's really easy, I think, when you believe in the power of something to naturally want to do it and pour into it. And that would be kind of my, I guess, final tidbit on book ghost writing and something that really signaled to me that that was something I was meant to pivot into and someone listening might feel this way. I have realized the level I analyze books is wild. Like I'm highlighting. And partially it's for the information, right? Partially it's for, oh, that's a great thing. But partially I'm going, that's a great phrase. Oh, I see. They did a story. They started halfway through the story, then they did a flashback. Like, I'm analyzing how they told the story, how they set up the book. Like how they structure their books, how they, how they structure their book covers. Like, all of those are things I am constantly, I naturally love. And so if, you know, someone listening is the same, that also could be a signal of that's something that could be a great fit because you're, you're already studying it and you don't even know it.

Rob Marsh (53:56)

As I think about the process of writing a book for someone else, there's probably a couple of different kinds of books people are looking for, you know, memoirs, you know, telling their story. There's probably educational books. It's like, you know, the seven things about starting a SaaS business kind of a thing. Maybe there's combinations between the two. So as you're entering into this, how are you thinking about how you're helping clients identify the book that they need to write? So again, somebody may say, oh, I need to, you know, I want to have a book book. I've got some great stories, but there's got to be some kind of a goal for the book. You know, am I just telling these stories to entertain my kids and my grandkids, or am I telling these stories in order to bring customers into my business? Because those are two really different books with probably very different structures and you need to be telling stories in different ways. Right. So how are you thinking about that kind of stuff as you approach these kinds of projects?

Wix Ad (54:53)

Absolutely. Well, I mean, first is like, of course, copywriter club. Like copywriter call to action is always, or what's the heart? What's the intent for what the purpose is? Is this a founder of a tech company who is going, okay, I want to be established as a thought leader and be known for blank topic because I run a company where we do blank. Is it going to be their new sort of business card where they go to conference or speak at conferences and they want to have this tangible, real life thing that people can hold and read and learn about them from and become the trusted expert and. Exactly. There's a whole genre of Book writing, that is people who are older that want to have a memoir to pass on to their family and have that have that legacy. So I think that's at the heart first is absolutely going, okay, what is the intention for the book and what's the vision? Because that could change a lot. So for example, if it's more educational and my, I write my own, you know, fiction, I'm writing my own books that are fiction, nonfiction that are my voice. And that's a way I get to have an outlet and I get to be me and I get to fully write someone else's book. That's also a joy because I know there are people who ghostwrite fiction. So for me, ghostwriting nonfiction being my pivot, ghostwriting nonfiction first study thought leaders, memoirs and especially spaces in, you know, tech, health and faith based Christian books is okay. Is it to educate and show up as a thought leader? Because then it's like one idea that immediately comes to me that, you know, for my mindset and approach is, is this meant to be one book or is this like a series you see doing so right from the get go, I want to know is this more of a series or is this more of a one off? Because if it's a series, there might be, you know, like they, if they are teaching on something, we can go in with the mindset of like, we're going to talk about these three or four main audiences they have and break it down. So educational. I want to question first if we're going to do a series and then break it up that way and also how is it being used? So is this a book that has been especially for thought leaders and for education? Is this to be sold and to truly be an author and to have income? Or is this something where you're using it as part of a funnel and for credibility? Because it's for a funnel and credibility. This is a lot more likely to be done as some sort of freebie, especially if it's a, could be a full size book, but probably like a shorter book because there are more and more books coming out, right, that are more, you know, like 100 pages. It's like a shorter version book that's top of funnel, something to bring to conferences. So really understanding how is it being used, Is it the end goal, just the book itself or is it just as you said, is it a funnel into someone's business, into someone's, you know, expertise, credibility, that, that sort of piece? I think when it comes to other sorts of like nonfiction, I think My, my heart is definitely this sort of, you know, inspiration and teaching something. And it might not be directly a memoir, but it's like a sneaky memoir because it's going to be through storytelling. It's going to be, you know, tapping into their own background. And I think a lot of it is helping them, the client figure out what the topic is. Because a lot of times, just like mentioned before, people might come and say, oh, I really want to write a book and I want to tell a story or I want to share this part. But as you actually talk to them and work through them like you're. A new theme emerges. So I think if it, there's education, if there's a funnel that's easier to find the purpose sometimes because naturally if you, you know, lead a software business and you run a certain type of software, you kind of know you're called action. You see your funnel and then there's more openness with a nonfiction that's more inspiring or a memoir like with a, with a faith based book or that a wellness book or you know, so you know, that is an experience where you're kind of working with them a little bit more of like what's the story want to tell why? And then helping them figure out what that story is and then mapping it from there as I think you can map a bit of the table of contents. But that's really something that you're going to do in the process of ghost writing the book as their stories come out, as the themes emerge, as they say that one line where you're like, stop, stop. What did you just say? That's a quote. That's a quote. Hold up. Okay, we need that in there. So a lot of that ghost writing process is like extracting things from them, figuring out their story because that's why someone is hiring, goes to write a book. That's, that's a whole other beast to, to do that and create that.

Rob Marsh (59:58)

Is there any last advice or big things that you want to share with people who might be thinking about ghostwriting?

Wix Ad (60:06)

Yes. So there is a big one. And I, I shared it with this about Rob beforehand because it was just so big on my heart. And what I want to say and make sure people know, listening is that whether you're a copywriter or a content creator, you're a ghostwriter. Especially if you're going into ghostwriting as a writer where, you know, we're already behind screens, we're in separate rooms, we're not always seen especially as a ghostwriter. Right where Someone else's name is on it. Unless you are co authoring, which can happen, right, where you can co author and your name is also in, you know, sort of the credits or the, you know, the byline. Um, but a lot of times as a ghostwriter, right, it is a true ghostwriting is your name is not there. It is the other person. And what I want to highlight and make sure is known, because this is something I did not realize, I struggled with, you know, 10 years ago, eight years ago, is that when you're ghostwriting for someone else, it's not that their voice matters and yours does not. Your voice still matters. You as a person, like, you are created, like, so special, right? Each person, right, is created so wonderfully and uniquely, and all of our voices matter. And when we go through as someone else, I have found, at least in my own experience, there was times where it was so easy for me to go, oh, they matter, and their story is this. And then I was like, I shrunk myself because I thought I had to shrink my value as a person for someone else to be lifted up. But that's not what ghost writing is, right? Like, ghost writing is. Hold up. What a joy and a gift that I have. The. The joy, the excitement, the skill set to highlight someone else's story, to draw it out of them, to tap into who they are, for even them to see more of who they are. I have people cry all the time when I read, when they're like, reading the first thing I've written as them because they go, whoa, is that me? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, did I say that? I'm like, yes, you did. They're like, what? Sometimes that they need a day or two because they're like, oh, my gosh, I can't say that. That's too bold. I'm like, but you did say it. And they go, what? But it's like, the sweetest gift, right? You get to give someone. You get to showcase and highlight their story. And you have, like, that is a special place you have, like, your place matters. It is not smaller. They are not bigger than you, even if they have more visibility in that way. And, for example, I'm excited that I'm writing my own books, and then I'm also ghostwriting books, right? Like, I get to have my voice. I don't need to shrink or not say anything just because I'm a ghostwriter. But even if you don't write your own things publicly, I just really want to make sure because I know we have so many writers that are so used to elevating other people, lifting them up, making sure they're seeing that they love every word said, that then they feel smaller and then they don't push back and they forget they have an authority and ownership role that really matters. And so you matter as a writer, as a ghostwriter, you are not smaller than anybody else. And I really want you to know that.

Rob Marsh (63:06)

Allie, if somebody wants to connect with you or even hop on your list or listen to your relaunched podcast, which should be coming out any day now, if it's not already out, where should they go?

Wix Ad (63:20)

Yes. Which is so wild to say that I am relaunching my podcast, but by the time this airs, it will be launched. So, dear listener, you are. I'm just so excited because obviously being on podcasts, I love podcasts and it's another way I use my voice and I highlight other people's stories. Once a ghostwriter, always someone who highlights stories. So you can do a few things. One, you can go to my Instagram or my website, which are Alison Evelyn, so I go by Ally, but I have my URL for so long, I'm sticking with it for now. The full Allison alisonevillin.com and also on my Instagram where you can DM me. It's me. I don't have someone else in there as me, robot assistant or otherwise. That is me and my dm. So say hi. Tell me if you write dark stories. I have a freebie that we're going to list that's going to be in the show notes. It'll also be on my website. And it is. I'm so excited to share this because it's something I wish I'd had many years ago when I was working as a ghostwriter. Even years in. This would have been great to have. And it's my five, like, favorite ghostwriting methods that truly will have clients just loving the work, like making it impactful, capturing the voice, just building on what we discussed today. I'm gonna have a special script in there as well and to script for helping push back against clients when they read your words and they freak out, they're too vulnerable. So I know that can feel scary to push back. So I wanted to give you a script because I have used it many times and it has given such a confidence that I don't even think about it anymore. It's not even scary. So I'll have that script in there. And then my podcast, now relaunched, is called Holy F. And it's the podcast that makes you say Holy F and the F stands for Father, freedom and Faith. And it's telling stories, personal, global, from history, from the Bible, all these places that are telling amazing jaw dropping stories that are so God you cannot make them up. So I'm really excited for that. It's going to be, it's a place to reignite faith, hope, belief because a lot of us are, we're facing a lot of doubt and we face a lot of things that we don't know are possible and so many arenas of just different topics that we can feel really downtrodden on. And so I wanted to create a place to tell stories that gave hope. We need good news in the world and things that are exciting so you can also check it out there. But Rob, it's been so fun to talk. I love getting to discuss stories and telling people's stories and I am so appreciative to have been here.

Rob Marsh (65:56)

Yeah, it's been amazing. Ali, thanks for coming back. And we'll have all the links in the show notes and who knows, maybe in three or four years we'll have you back again. Thanks Ali, for walking us through the ins and outs of ghostwriting for clients and especially for sharing the mental shifts that we need to make in order to move from the typical client to one that needs help with thought leadership and ghostwriting. As a ghostwriter, it's less about creating the voice or story for a brand or business and more about magnifying the voice of an already existing person and helping them show up in the world in a bigger way. So many business leaders need this kind of help, and if Ally's story and advice resonated with you, you may want to consider ghostwriting as a service in your own business. A couple of other resources that might help you as you step into the role of a ghostwriter are workshops and playbooks that are inside the copywriter underground. These are workshops about creating your own intellectual property, finding your X factor. That's the thing that makes you different and better than other copywriters. And there's a workshop about writing thought leadership. I know you probably don't have a lot of time to watch workshops and add these skills to your own skill set, which is why we are adding playbooks for each of the workshops inside the Underground. Of course, you can watch the workshops for the in depth training, or you can use the three to four page playbook that pulls the most important concepts out of each of the workshops and gives you a step by step plan for things like finding your X factor, creating your own intellectual property, and writing thought leadership. These are plans that you can use immediately to accomplish more in your business, starting today. And if you're interested in that, check out TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you heard, please share it with someone that you know. Just send them an email with a link to the podcast. Say, hey, I was listening to this and I thought of you. Or if you don't know another writer or freelancer that you can share the podcast with, visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcasts and leave a review. I know I say this every week and every week you hear me say it, but this time maybe just pull up Apple Podcasts or Spotify and actually leave that review. This time. Five stars are always appreciated. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends will thank you. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

Wix Ad (68:26)

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