TCC Podcast #441: Adding to Your Writing Skills with Emily Reagan

Summary

Episode Summary: The Copywriter Club Podcast #441 – Adding to Your Writing Skills with Emily Reagan

Release Date: April 1, 2025

In episode #441 of The Copywriter Club Podcast, host Rob Marsh welcomes Emily Reagan, a seasoned marketing assistant and copywriting expert, to discuss the evolving role of copywriters in the modern marketing landscape. The episode delves deep into the necessity for copywriters to diversify their skill sets, incorporate additional marketing services, and leverage tools like AI to remain indispensable to clients. Emily shares her personal journey, business strategies, and actionable insights to help copywriters elevate their careers and businesses.

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1. Expanding the Role of a Copywriter

Emily Reagan kicks off the conversation by highlighting the increasing demand for copywriters who can wear multiple hats beyond traditional writing roles. She emphasizes the shift towards smaller, more agile teams where individuals are expected to handle a variety of marketing tasks.

“The growing need for writers of all kinds to take on this larger, more inclusive role, to contribute more, and often use AI to bring it all together.” — Rob Marsh [00:53]

Key Points:

• Diverse Responsibilities: Modern copywriters are now involved in strategy, brainstorming lead magnets, managing ads, and optimizing email systems.
• Marketing Assistants: The title may vary, but the essence lies in providing comprehensive marketing support, often enhanced by AI tools.

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2. Emily's Journey to Becoming a Marketing Assistant

Emily shares her path from being a military wife with a background in journalism and PR to becoming a multifaceted marketing assistant. Her transition was driven by the need to support business owners who juggle multiple roles.

“If you're doing copy, you're a copywriter and just own it.” — Emily Reagan [10:49]

Key Points:

• Serendipitous Growth: Emily’s business evolved organically, adapting to market needs and leveraging her diverse skill set.
• Training Others: Beyond servicing clients, Emily focuses on training virtual assistants to enhance their marketing capabilities.

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3. Defining the Modern Marketing Assistant

The discussion shifts to what constitutes a marketing assistant in today’s digital age. Emily underscores the importance of combining complementary skills to provide higher value to clients.

“Copy is a must. That's something I preach.” — Emily Reagan [07:59]

Key Points:

• Skill Stacking: Combining copywriting with other skills like funnel strategy, automation, and data analysis.
• Value Addition: By integrating copy into broader marketing strategies, assistants can offer more comprehensive services, leading to higher client retention and the ability to charge premium rates.

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4. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Embracing Expertise

Emily recounts a pivotal moment at a conference where she was encouraged to embrace her identity as a copywriter, despite initial self-doubt.

“You just have to put that effort in. I do that. I put that effort in.” — Emily Reagan [38:56]

Key Points:

• Self-Identification: Owning one’s role and expertise is crucial for confidence and professional growth.
• Continuous Learning: Embracing ongoing education and skill development to stay relevant and authoritative in the field.

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5. Leveraging AI and Technology in Marketing

The conversation explores the integration of AI in marketing tasks, making processes more efficient and allowing copywriters to focus on high-level strategy and messaging.

“If you can just add [AI] into what you're doing, and honestly, if I have somebody I'm interviewing for my team and I know they're using AI, I trust them more.” — Emily Reagan [29:54]

Key Points:

• Efficiency Gains: AI can handle repetitive tasks, transcription, and content generation, freeing up time for strategic planning.
• Quality Assurance: AI tools can enhance the quality of deliverables, but human oversight remains essential for nuanced tasks like data analysis and messaging refinement.

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6. Strategies for Finding and Retaining Clients

Emily provides insights into effective client acquisition and retention strategies, emphasizing the importance of showcasing expertise and building strong relationships.

“Quality will actually improve.” — Emily Reagan [32:55]

Key Points:

• Targeted Services: Offering services that align with current market demands, such as email marketing and social media management.
• Networking and Visibility: Building a strong online presence through blogging, SEO, and strategic partnerships to attract and retain high-quality clients.
• Client Relationships: Focusing on long-term partnerships rather than one-off projects to ensure steady business growth.

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7. Navigating Client Pitches and Rejections

The episode touches on effective pitching techniques and handling rejections gracefully, reinforcing the importance of professionalism and persistence.

“Rejection is just a part of the process.” — Kira Hug [49:22]

Key Points:

• Personalized Pitches: Researching potential clients thoroughly before pitching to demonstrate genuine interest and understanding.
• Resilience: Viewing rejection as a learning opportunity rather than a setback, maintaining confidence in one’s skills and offerings.

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8. Future Directions and Business Evolution

Towards the end of the episode, Emily discusses her plans to focus more on her membership programs and rebranding efforts to better align with her business goals.

“I'm leaning boldly into this little area I've carved out.” — Emily Reagan [59:49]

Key Points:

• Membership Focus: Developing membership programs to provide ongoing support and resources to fellow marketers and copywriters.
• Rebranding: Refining her brand to better reflect her evolved role as a marketing freelancer and assistant.

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Conclusion

Episode #441 of The Copywriter Club Podcast offers invaluable insights for copywriters aiming to broaden their skill sets and enhance their value in the competitive marketing landscape. Emily Reagan’s experiences and strategies provide a roadmap for integrating additional marketing services, leveraging technology, and building strong client relationships to ensure long-term success.

Notable Quotes:

• “If you're doing copy, you're a copywriter and just own it.” — Emily Reagan [10:49]
• “Copy is a must. That's something I preach.” — Emily Reagan [07:59]
• “Rejection is just a part of the process.” — Kira Hug [49:22]

For more resources mentioned in this episode, visit thecopywriterclub.com and connect with Emily Reagan on Instagram @emilyraganpr.

Transcript

[Rob Marsh]

You're a copywriter, but you could do.

[Kira Hug]

Other marketing stuff like design or email systems.

[Rob Marsh]

Is there a need for that? This is the Copywriter Club Podcast. As a copywriter, you probably have a.

[Kira Hug]

Hand in all kinds of marketing activities, everything from the overall marketing strategy to.

[Rob Marsh]

Brainstorming lead magnets, to creating and posting content or writing and managing ads, to figuring out which email systems will help increase engagement and purchases.

[Kira Hug]

You probably already do a lot of.

[Rob Marsh]

The stuff for your clients, and what's more, a lot of clients want smaller, more nimble teams these days, and that means working with people who can do more of the tasks they used to.

[Kira Hug]

Depend on an entire team to get done.

[Rob Marsh]

Some people taking on these expanded roles call themselves marketing assistants, and whether that title works for you or not isn't really important. What's what really matters is that there is a growing need for writers of all kinds to take on this larger, more inclusive role, to contribute more, and often use AI to bring it all together. My guest for this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast is Emily Reagan. Emily started out offering marketing support, especially related to Facebook ads, but she expanded beyond that to include things like copywriting and other marketing services, and she spent the past couple of years helping others do the same thing. We talked about the importance of adding additional marketing services to your copywriting business in order to make yourself more valuable, maybe even indispensable for your clients. It's yet another way to stand out from all of the other writers out there who don't offer clients anything extra. While we talked, Emily also shared a lot of the details about her business. She works with clients as well as helps other writers grow their marketing skills. And as she tells it, her business grew serendipitously, going from one thing to the next as it made sense for her. Not exactly a path that others can.

[Kira Hug]

Follow, but it is a strategy for.

[Rob Marsh]

Finding your own path to the work that you love doing.

[Kira Hug]

I think you're going to like this discussion.

[Rob Marsh]

As usual, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. You've heard me talk about how we've recently rebuilt the Underground Dashboard to make it easier to find the ideas and insights that you need.

[Kira Hug]

But as I started recreating this new dashboard, it occurred to me that no.

[Rob Marsh]

One has time to watch more than 70 different workshops that are included inside the Underground, even those workshops that help you gain the skills and strategies that you need to build your business. So I've taken more than 30 of those workshops on finding clients, having sales calls, using AI, building authority on LinkedIn and dozens of others. And I've created playbooks that break down the ideas in the workshops into easy to follow steps. Each playbook is three to five pages.

[Kira Hug]

Long, and you can read through one.

[Rob Marsh]

And start implementing the ideas in it in minutes. And then if you want more detail, you can watch the accompanying workshop. Each playbook even includes a checklist so you don't miss any steps and can make sure that you're getting things done. I'm working on completing playbooks for all of the workshops and training inside the Underground. They should all be ready to go by the end of April, but you can get the first 30 or so right now by visiting TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU and.

[Kira Hug]

Now my interview with Emily Reagan. Hey, Emily, welcome to the podcast. And let's, let's just start out by saying this is a long time coming. The last time we saw each other was like five years ago. And I don't know why we haven't had you on sooner than now, but I'm glad you're here now that you're here. Yeah. Tell us. Tell us your story. How did you become a copywriter?

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, it's been five years in the making. The last time you and I were together was right when the pandemic was happening in 2020. So it's like a way different time. Yeah, my business has changed a lot since I showed up to your conference in real life. But you know how business owners, especially the online ones, are running around like crazy trying to wear all the hats, do all the things, keep all the marketing, all the rhythms happy. I am the person who started training the marketing assistant to help within that marketing department. And it started because I was a military wife for 20 years, had this hodgepodge of journalism and PR jobs, and was just lucky to find a job, only to move a year or two later. And it kind of all came together beautifully in the online space. And then I just started teaching my friends how to do it. So when I went to your conference, I wasn't officially calling myself a copywriter, but I was still finding myself doing that work. And had I known about it back in 2007 when I was freelancing my first store press releases, I would have just gone all into copywriting, but I didn't know what I didn't know. So, yeah, now I train virtual assistants to be in the marketing department, because marketing, it's more fun, it's creative, it's flexible, it pays more. And that's the where I'm happy.

[Kira Hug]

I Love that. And I'm really glad we started here because so many copywriters in the copywriter club, people who listen to this podcast start out as VAs and they come to that realization. It's like, wait a second, I'm doing way more here than just being an assistant.

[Emily Reagan]

Yes. And the cream always rises. I mean, assistant never would have appealed to me. So I've really struggled with the my own marketing. I'm like, do I use virtual assistant? Because that's the SEO word. But it's so much more. And I think the word virtual assistant is just really getting kind of dumbed down. Like when I, when I get into my Kia Carnival and I see the little button for virtual assistant, I'm thinking of like AI. And so this job title has evolved since I even started, you know, training people four years ago. And that's why I kind of went all in with the idea of a marketing assistant, because there's just so many options online. And then you start adding different skills like copy or customer service or podcasting, content marketing, and you just created a whole different type of unique specialization for yourself. So it's really fun to see how it all comes together online.

[Kira Hug]

So let's talk about being a marketing assistant. You just kind of listed off a bunch of the things that they might do. But let's, let's go a little bit deeper with this idea because I really like it. I think that there's this space maybe for a lot of people who have been VAs, but they feel like they're.

[Rob Marsh]

Doing more, but maybe they're not ready.

[Kira Hug]

Yet to call themselves a copywriter or a designer or a CMO or whatever. The next thing is, there's kind of this space out there. So how do you define that? Marketing assistant.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. And especially getting confusing when you see AI can help. You're seeing things being delegated and outsourced overseas for super cheap. So, you know, business has six main departments. We have operations, customer service, hr, finances, you know, accounting, product development, and then we have marketing and sales. And so this marketing. I think where a lot of business owners get it wrong is they're trying to find a virtual assistant to do everything and save their business by Thursday and launch and video edit, you know, and so really drilling down into what department am I in and what kind of results am I going after? And I think a lot of us hold ourselves back thinking, I need a four year marketing degree and those kind of days are a little bit over.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. So. So if I wanted to maybe step into that newer role. Do I need to know how to write copy and also use Canva and also edit video for the person that I might be working with in order to get things onto Reels or YouTube? Like, what are the things that I think that I need in my skill wheelhouse in order to be able to, you know, start calling myself a marketing assistant?

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I think you need to combine like complementary skills for sure. And what's interesting is in my course I am teaching, I say, you know, I'm teaching you how to grow an audience online and help your clients sell to that audience. Right. And so we're nurturing and we're selling, we're converting. And so that's kind of the role of the marketing assistant is which channels are we driving traffic? Like, how are we nurturing them? How are we getting them on the list? Which algorithms? Like, like what? Right. So that's a little bit of the game. But in my course I teach the tech, I teach the strategy, and I'm always saying and complimenting you. The next thing is copy. You have to learn how to sell with words. So I think any time you can add copy to a specific or niche or even general marketing, you know, service, you are going to be sitting pretty. You'll have, you know, more career flexibility, you know, easier retention with clients because clients are really wanting that long term help. I mean, I don't know about you, but in the online space I'm seeing a lot of teams simplifying, streamlining, condensing. We don't all want 20 employees in our business anymore. We're looking more at profits. The online space is changing. So if we can find someone who can offer a little bit higher value, you know, they can also, you know, charge more too. So it's figuring out like what is the right way to add copy in there. And I, I think copy is a must. That's something I preach. And like I said when I was starting, I didn't know it was a thing. I kind of fell into it. And it started with like, okay, well I need to whip out this thank you page. My client gave me nothing and it's like holding me back, like I'll just take care of it. So that's kind of how it started with me. Or like blogging or, you know, Pinterest. How do I get the click on these, you know, simple Pinterest pins I'm making?

[Kira Hug]

You just said something that really like rings a bell and it's that I'll just take care of it. It's as if the the person who, who is right for this kind of a title or a role is the person that cares about the business of the person they're working for. Is that. Does that read right?

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we're finding how we can, like, fit our copy words into marketing systems. So, like, if you're already naturally doing that and thinking in terms of strategy or what comes next and you're enjoying it and the client is asking you, that's such an opportunity to, you know, level up into the next role. Like I said, assistants are leveling up to specialists, to marketing managers and strategists. I don't know about you, but I know a lot of copywriters do way more than just copy. They're coming in and now advising on the strategy of the funnel or the launch or the webinar. And so those are opportunities to start wearing that, you know, or dubbing yourself, like, the higher title that you might not feel ready for because you're already actually doing it. You just, you know, might not recognize.

[Kira Hug]

That that makes sense. So you were saying when we met each other at the conference in San Diego, you were kind of struggling with how to call yourself or what to call yourself, how to make that shift. So what was the thing that, like, snapped for you that. That, you know, like, changed everything. You're like, oh, I see now what I really am or where I can make that contribution.

[Emily Reagan]

I'm going to tell this story in reverse and spoiler alert, it ends with you, but it starts with you. I actually went on to do a hodgepodge of skills and enjoyed it. I like variety. I have this crazy skill set and one of the jobs. I've worked with a lot of high end copywriters and marketers. Some of them, you will know that I will never mention their name on this podcast. And I found myself in this role as an ads manager, combining my unique skill set. I'm doing the tech, the audience, I'm doing the copy, and I'm doing a little bit of the design. Am I going to do a perfectly produced Facebook ad? No. At some point, like, I will hire out the specialist, so let me just throw that out there. And I'm like, chuckling because the ad's going live and everyone's like, this guy is so great. His copy is so good. I'm studying it and I'm like, it's me, it's me, it's not him. And I am, you know, it's going great. And then all of a sudden, the funnel breaks. It doesn't Work and who gets thrown under the bus, it's me, the ads manager. There's only so much in my control if the button's not working, the landing page isn't loading and the tech isn't delivering what it said. I got, I got hosed. And so I found myself in this moment with a very high end funnel expert who everyone would know if I said his name, just staring me down. And he looked at me and he said, are you a copywriter? Because they're doing like a funnel audit. And I'm just like, fudge. I quivered, I went silent. And I regret that moment to my day. And I should have reflected back to the fact that if you're doing copy, you are a copywriter and just own it. And you and I had that conversation in the bar in San Diego where I told you, like, I don't know why I'm here at this, at this conference with all these copywriters. Like, I look at you and your experience and everything, you know, with advertising and marketing and you know, your method for writing copy. And I don't bring that to the table, but I bring something else, right? And at that bar, I told you, hey, I, I don't feel like a copywriter. And you just like anointed me one right then and there. And so it's permission to call yourself that and you know, take responsibility for what you do bring to the table and own that. And I'm just putting it out there for your listeners. Like I buffed it. Even after you anointed me. I got fired. Long, long story short, they needed to fire me. They had no right running ads to a broken funnel, right? So I think about that moment that was really pivotal for me to own my experience and what I bring to the table. That will never happen again. And I have since done ads for other people. Like right now I'm doing, I'm actually working with an ads manager, but like, I know enough about copy messaging and how it should work, where now I'm like managing it as a CMO and we're doing great. Like it had nothing to do with that one time client experience. I did ads for another a client like in January and we did great there too. So I don't know, I don't know if that made sense, but it was just like a fun story that kind of brings it all together and it's really about like positioning yourself as an expert but really feeling it and believing it.

[Kira Hug]

So thanks for sharing that. I forgot that conversation. I remember hanging out with you at the bar. But I totally spaced that had even happened. So that's a great reminder.

[Emily Reagan]

Guided me.

[Kira Hug]

Rob, now that you're saying it, I'm like, that's right. I do remember that. I was in a fog. That whole week was kind of crazy. But, yeah. So I guess if anybody's listening and they're thinking, wait a second, maybe I'm ready to step up, you and I together, we can knight them right now and say, look, if you're writing copy, you're a copywriter. If you're writing copy for yourself, if you're writing it for just one client, you're all, you're a va or you're doing something else, but you're still helping them with that stuff. Lean into that and grow that experience and do the things that you need to do in order to really step into that role.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, don't be shy. Offer that support to your clients. At some point, it's a fuzzy line, right? Like, when are you going out of scope? When are you doing too much? But I think it's easy to flex it with the clients you have now. Build the confidence, build the competence. Like, we know about that loop. Like, you just have to insert yourself into that. And there's so much to be said with just the job title. I mean, I coach a lot of my students with the job title, so it's so funny that I got stuck on it, too, you know, thinking about all the talented copywriters we had there. I remember Justin Blackman staying on the stage, on the stage, saying, he got this huge contract, and even he was scared. And I was like, wow, if Justin's scared, like, I can be too, you know, And I still add value to my clients. Like, they need help. They have a hard time finding someone who can do marketing. Like, it's hard to find fractional good marketers right now. And so feeling good about what I bring to the table is really key. And being able to partner with them ongoing and long term, like, I'm fitting. Avoid that a lot of freelancers don't do.

[Kira Hug]

So while we're still talking about this, how. Let's say that there are skills that somebody's thinking, okay, I have been writing copy, but I don't know enough about marketing or some of this other stuff. How would you recommend they go about adding these kinds of skills so that they're actually practitioners of them and they're not just, you know, reading a book or taking a course?

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. Obviously, we all feel good if we Take a course or we learn from someone ahead of us. Right. Like that's like the fastest track for doing anything. But I would just be really intentional with how you combine things. Like, you know, an obvious one for a skill stack for copywriter is learning funnels. You know, clients need help. They want somebody who understands marketing strategy, the automation, how we can be really strategic and personal right now, especially with these conversations that are happening. So if you can offer a combination of at least the strategy and the copy, it could be that we hire out the tech. But if you enjoy the tech, like sometimes my brain enjoys shutting down a little bit and doing some of that because it can be very black and white. I think funnels are an obvious low hanging fruit, like easy money on the table whenever you can get involved. And how is the world adapting with launching and how can you stay in the forefront? I don't know about you, I'm seeing a lot of people doing more evergreen or less live launching, more ongoing containers, less pressure to launch. I think automation is a big one. Figuring out like many chat funnels right now are huge or any kind of bot assistance. So like combining them in the right way. I like to use my current clients for practice. And you can always obviously practice on your own business. I think that's the safest place to do it.

[Kira Hug]

So another thing that occurs to me while we're talking about this is obviously the copywriting world is changing as well and a lot of copywriters are struggling to find work. Maybe it's AI, maybe it's the economy, but there's this sneaking suspicion, and it may not be wrong, that at least some of that lower level copywriting work is gone and maybe gone forever, thanks again to AI. And so there's probably an opportunity here for even copywriters or content creators to expand their skill sets into maybe they wouldn't call themselves a marketing assistant, but it's more of a marketer, CMO type thing by adding these other skill sets. So you're not just writing email and sending off a doc with copy in it, but you're also loading that into an esp, you know, or setting up the welcome sequence or the abandoned cart sequence, or helping the clients identify the missing pieces where money's kind of leaking out of their business. And more of us need to be doing that in order to ensure that there's work in the future.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, or taking it to the next step. I was thinking of a brand voice person I worked with, with a client and she gave us all of these amazing messaging Points. And then it's like, then what? We need help taking it to the next step. And so I know that she has since pivoted and added, like, building the AI copywriter to go with it with my brand voice. And so, like, making it that full package, just a higher value. We would have paid probably $10,000 for that instead of the five. Because now I have something I can turn around and give to my team, who I pay. I do pay for lower level tasks for some of that. But here's what's never going away. Like, the data analysis, somebody to sit down and have the oversight. Copywriters are so good at that being, like, strategic with surveys. You know, before we hit record, I was talking about Brittany McBean and I got a chance to see her brain working and launch for my course. And the way she analyzed the survey data was just blew my mind. My mind. I'd never seen that. And, like, that's the kind of stuff that my little AI copywriter can't do at her level. And what we ultimately need is that final messaging. Right? And that's what copywriters do. So well, they do the market research. And this is why I always get hesitant to call myself one, because I like to come in with, like, the final product and, like, make decisions, but that final messaging stamp is just getting noisier and harder to stand out. I mean, you have a lot of good podcasts here on the show talking about, like, how to write the hook, but we need the people to, like, oversee them and make sure it's actually moving the business forward. Right. Like, businesses are kind of struggling right now in the online space. So we gotta stand out. We've gotta convert even better than before.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about how your business changed then, you know, from where we were five years ago and kind of in that struggle, giving yourself permission today, your business is really different.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I have always kind of had my, like, mutually exclusive things. Like, I do the client work. I'm still a practitioner. I enjoy it. It keeps me relevant. So I have some client work. I've just had to be very intentional and strategic about who I say yes to, which is always the freelance, like, boundary and, like, problem we get into, like, which clients do we say yes to? So I have kind of streamlined that. And I basically work like CMO projects over there or ads, like something that can be like, high level one time on and off. And so I found myself doing a lot of quiz funnels. You know, I worked with Ashanti Zach and I took her course and I was able to do that. And a lot of the work, I partnered with a copywriter. I was actually doing a lot of the tech and then the ads. And so that's kind of where ads kind of fell into my lap. And it's really fun to watch what copywriters turn in. And I've always learned that. Way back when my clients called me their va. I can remember them hiring copywriters and me just eating it up because I was the one making the changes, like going into the landing page and like, oh, they re. That makes sense. So I never had actually taken a copywriting course, which is why I felt like an imposter back in 2019. So I. I kind of found a way to marry my. My knack for writing and copywriting and design and build these funnels. And then I started teaching people how to do the work too, because it's been so empowering for somebody like me. Like, there's a lot of over educated, underemployed military spouses or women who had a baby break or people transitioning to staying at home or making a change in their career. And I just realized that you don't need a marketing degree this day and age. If I can teach you how the algorithms work and what business owners are trying to do, we can give you the whole picture. You could learn how to do this and start with a couple services. So there's like two parts of my business now, and it's pretty wild to go from behind the scenes to the face of my business, which is slightly uncomfortable, but, you know, when you know you're helping other people, you'll. You'll do it and. Yeah. What do you want to talk about in there? Because there's like so many little side conversations.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, well, and you've got a lot of different moving pieces as well. I think you've got a community, you've got a podcast of your own. I mean, in addition to, you know, copywriting, you're doing PR and, you know, a lot of the. The moving pieces in the background for your clients. So there's almost not even a title for all of the things that you're doing.

[Emily Reagan]

When somebody was like, what do you do? Because I always lean into my PR experience. I knew how to write a press release and get it printed in a podunk paper word by word. Like, that's. That's what I knew how to do. And that press release turned into media kits, which turned into me looking at Google Analytics, which turned into Pinterest. Which turned into blogging, which turned into landing pages and funnels. So it was like not a, like a linear thing at all. So I do, I have done some pitching and like use the skill set over there. Ads are really easy. It's like you kind of want to go where like it's easy and natural for you and you almost feel kind of bad about it because it comes so natural, you know.

[Kira Hug]

But there's like a trade off with that too is oftentimes when something comes naturally to us, we don't price it properly because we were like, oh, this is easy, this isn't work. And so it must not be valuable. And so we end up staying in.

[Rob Marsh]

Those lower roles even though we're doing.

[Kira Hug]

This higher level work.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I think the more teams I work on, the more I see a. What a hot mess a lot of people are. They look very successful online. I mean, all of us are struggling. So even the most organized person who might look intimidating might not be creative and need your skill and vice versa. If you're one of those integrator organized, you know, eos people, like somebody needs the talent you have out there. And I agree it's like really easy to undervalue your work and. But isn't that the goal to find what you're most passionate about and what people and what you're good at and what you love with what people are paying you for? I always struggled, like, what do I call myself? And I was kind of joking with my teammate and I was like, I'm a unicorn. And turns out there is such a thing as a full stack unicorn marketer. I was like, I didn't even know that. I was just kind of combining my PR with this like new world of online business. I discovered and dubbed myself a unicorn and then it kind of became a thing. And that is part of my branding now, which is funny because I'm very much Sporty Spice and not a sparkly unicorn girl. But it, it is the essence of what we're all trying to do, like find that sweet spot for us. We all come from like unique backgrounds and experiences and I, I will never forget Shanti telling me that she, one of her first like blogs she wrote was in Podiatry and like that was your passion. And you, you know, you're like a health nut. You're really into like, I don't know, plantar fasciitis protection. Like that could be like the dream business, writing content and copy for, I don't know, that type of doctor podiatrists.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting this. This kind of skill stacking and how we all put it together. We've always called it finding your X factor when we've, you know, taught these workshops in our programs. And it is the way we've said this a whole bunch of times, but, like, There are over 750,000 copywriters on LinkedIn. There are over a million content writers on LinkedIn. If you add content strategists or social media strategists, there's, like, probably 2 million more of those. Right. So, like, standing out in that crowd is really hard. But when you start doing this kind of skill stacking where you're matching this thing that you like and that thing you like, it's pretty easy, you know, once you have four or five things that you're combining in unique ways to be the number one in that combination, rather than, you know, so you don't have to be the very best copywriter and competing with those millions, but you.

[Rob Marsh]

Do have to be the very best.

[Kira Hug]

Copywriter who works in your niche, who brings to the table your three or four skills and writes in the voice or can mimic the voice. Right. And you combine these four or five things together, that's your X factor. And that's basically what you're. You're helping your clients do as well.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. And then you add in SEO and you're really golden.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, exactly. Or AI or whatever. Yeah. The more you add in, the more unique you become.

[Emily Reagan]

I was reading. Is it James Clear's book? I'm so bad at quoting people, but he talked about Atomic habits. Right. Isn't that.

[Kira Hug]

Yes, that's James Clear. Yeah.

[Emily Reagan]

He talked about combining his masters and, like, a way to stand out, like, if you can't compete with Michael Phelps in Olympic swimming, like, create your own field. And he talked about how he combined his major in a unique way, which just made him special. Like, that's exactly what we're doing. You change the playing field that you're on when you do that. I will tell you, a lot of copywriters don't. And because I'm implementing a lot of the work, they don't understand Design ux. How many times are. I was like, that headline doesn't fit, or your Facebook headline doesn't fit because there's only so many characters. And then SEO is a big one. Like, that's never going to go away. And especially with AI, like, skimming everything. So right off the bat, those would be two things. But I'll tell you this. I Think I appreciate copy more as I run my team. I'm going to throw my team under the bus when I see their responses sometimes in emails and customer engagement, even if they're just we're sending out an email as a reminder to attend an event. I see the lack of copy knowledge and messaging in their writing and that drives me crazy as a business owner. And I will never hire someone again who doesn't know how to write. And I don't. I mean beyond grammar, like the copy of reminding people, why are we showing up to this happy hour for the work group? And it's not because we are shooting the breeze and we just like to hang out and take it easy. No, like there's a deeper mission impact and like reason there in this community and we're meeting up and all of that was lacking from these little, I'm going to call them piddly, like internal communication. And for me that's eye opening. Some clients just won't get it, but the clients who do, I mean, they're keepers. They're keepers.

[Kira Hug]

Well, I think more and more the clients who don't get it, they're using content farms or AI or whatever. Like they, they never were looking for that higher level stuff. But the keeper clients need humans more than ever.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. And they value that and they will keep you and they will pay well for that. And that's why that messaging I think is just so important to bring to the table.

[Kira Hug]

So you're talking to copywriters, marketers, marketing assistants all the time. Where do you see the biggest opportunities in online marketing today?

[Emily Reagan]

Ooh, definitely AI. Like figuring a way to combine it and be more efficient, whether it's in your own work, streamlining your own work so you're not trading as much time or being able to do it in that deliverable like we talked about with that other brand voice person I was working with. And then the AI can go into even more automations. Like I was thinking about how I used to manually listen to my clients Facebook Live, transcribe it, I'm that old, transcribe it, then create blogs from that. I mean that was like a full, full day experience. I learned her business so deeply, but now I can do all of that so quickly and just deliver such better quality. And I think, and I think AI is really where it's going. And I don't mean that in a way to scare people because I do have people in my work group who are like, oh my God, AI is replacing me. Like it's really not if you can just add it into what you're doing. And honestly, if I have somebody I'm interviewing for my team and I know they're using AI, I trust them more. You know, they're not going to be, like, just sending me this giant invoice of all these dumb man hours. There's this, like, something when someone's ahead of it and incorporating it, it shows that they're, like, on the forefront, cutting edge, that they're thinking about my business. Like, there's a lot of trust that goes into that.

[Kira Hug]

There's also an opportunity here that I think a lot of us are missing. And that is, you know, even when a copywriter or a content writer gets feedback from the client that says, oh, we're using AI to create that, well, somebody at their business still has to be using the AI AI to do that.

[Rob Marsh]

Right.

[Kira Hug]

And so why them instead of you? And I think sometimes we're afraid of having that conversation with the client saying, okay, I get it, we can use AI for that.

[Rob Marsh]

Let me handle that.

[Kira Hug]

Obviously, we're not going to be charging.

[Rob Marsh]

20 hours for the project anymore.

[Kira Hug]

It's only going to take us an hour. But that also opens up the other hours we were working for them to do more. Right. Even if using AI or to bring more ideas to the table or things that they weren't able to get to. And I just think sometimes we're as. As freelancers or contract workers, we're afraid to have that conversation because, well, sometimes it actually is going to end up in less work for us.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. I think it's also music to the client's ears. And I know, you know, kind of thinking about that fractional role, what we're missing is the oversight, the consistency in branding and messaging. Like, it can feel so disjointed. You get all these other people doing it. So I think that when you pitch yourself to the client, you kind of show that, like, quality will actually improve. And, yeah, I think sometimes a lot of people are afraid, but I know from all the business owners I've worked with, the ones that I've coached, or they've turned around and hired our unicorns, they all want somebody to just take the reins and get it out of their brain and, like, start, you know, spinning those plates and so offer it. Don't be afraid to offer it.

[Kira Hug]

While we're on that topic, let's talk about finding clients, because a lot of people are struggling with that right now for a variety of different reasons. You see a lot of clients, a lot of requests for copywriters or content.

[Rob Marsh]

Writers come through your group.

[Kira Hug]

I know. What are people looking for? And why does it feel so hard to connect with clients today?

[Emily Reagan]

Oh my goodness.

[Kira Hug]

Okay, so this could probably be a two hour discussion.

[Emily Reagan]

I know, right? Right. So many answers here too. Um, okay, I want to start with. We've had over 3,000 jobs that we've shared with my little work group and I like to check the data. I was looking at the top. What are people asking? And granted like this isn't like a clean data set. Right. It's people coming from marketing assistance. But the number one thing they want help with is email marketing. Like that's just not going away. So I think if you can offer services or especially for somebody new that people actually want and need is like just the best way to get your foot in the door. I feel like I see a lot of service providers who get really rigid about what they do and what they don't do and such a double edged sword, you know. But when you're getting started, it's like you've got to like fit the market demand, like what do people actually need? And maybe get really good at that and build off of that. The other three, I didn't have the data right in front of me but social media came high up there and I know that social from, I don't know, a few years ago you could just kind of post whatever and not really have any intention. But social media gets a bad rep. But you add in AI, it's not that hard to take a concept sales, email, create tons of, you know, social posts off of that. So I think that would also be like a good starting service to go in there and again meet where the demand is. Right. What are you seeing with the client work? I think that there is a lot of new people if I'm in a rift for a second, starting businesses who don't have any right to start a business, who got sold into a dream that I just do this one digital revenue stream and I'm going to be rich. And they're not thinking about what it takes and cost to run a business. And it takes, it does take time, it takes human capital. And so they do this initial, like, oh, start with very little and then they're not thinking about the long term, like who they hire first, what they actually need, how do they actually sell. And so I think we are kind of recovering a little bit from that as service providers and seeing the aftermath on the flip side. I'm just going to keep going, Rob. I'M seeing a lot of this freelancer culture of people who didn't make it in corporate, who didn't really cut it, who thought it would be easy to just start this type of business over here. And they're kind of doing us dirty, too, because they're not delivering their ghosting. They're turning in bad work or. Yeah. And so it's like we're kind of getting. Getting it from two sides. And I think it's really hard for us right now just like, to pick out the good clients and the good work and not let everything else plus AI get us down.

[Kira Hug]

I think if somebody could invent the. The quality signal thing that, you know, that is able to show clients that, yes, this copywriter is really good, and that one is one you maybe shouldn't like, that be a billionaire overnight. You know, this is like to. To be able to communicate that you.

[Rob Marsh]

Do good work, that you deliver on.

[Kira Hug]

Deadlines, that you do what you say that you stick to. You stick to the proposal or to the scope of the project, that, you know, you're. You're helping your clients solve real problems. Like, I mean, I don't want to call them a unicorn because there's more than. There's more than a handful of people who do that. But also, you're probably in the top 20% of copywriters if you can do that stuff.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's the soft skills, 100%. How you show up, how you make the client feel, what does that look like, how you communicate? It's the soft skills that make the difference. I have a couple people in my work group who want to niche into copywriting, and they're. A couple of them have been a little bit whiny. I hope they don't listen to this episode. But I want to tell them, like, if you want to be hired for these services, like, you have to demonstrate that you're good at this. And this doesn't mean your portfolio has all the writing you've ever done, but it starts with your own business. And if you don't look like a professional or somebody I can trust, like, why is anyone going to hire you to do, like, that sales page that you really want to charge $10,000 for? And so I think that is hard is I don't see people putting the effort into their own business and their own marketing so that we do trust you with everything else going on.

[Kira Hug]

This is such a weird ethic like you. I mean, I think I saw this start as the pandemic was going, a lot of people had to stay home. They're like, hey, this staying home thing is pretty sweet. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do a job that's like that. And so immediately it's like, oh, copywriter. You know, I can write. I learned how to write in second grade. You know, I can. I can do this thing. And they jumped. I mean, you. I'm kind of repeating what you were saying earlier, but they jumped in without the marketing knowledge, without having gone through, you know, any of the formulas or trying to teach themselves anything. They just put up their shingle and said, yeah, I can write. Obviously, a small percentage of them, you know, do and can, but it's. You know, writing is like any other skill, and you have to know the formulas, the frameworks, you know, how to get somebody from where they are to where they need to go. You've got to be able to talk about transition and transformation and results and.

[Rob Marsh]

All of those things.

[Kira Hug]

And so, I mean, I'm preaching to you, hopefully people listening, that this is helpful. But. But if. If you can do those things, then, yeah, you're. You're probably gonna be okay.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I hope somebody listening just feels good that, like, okay, I am. I'm in the top 10%. Like, I'm doing well, and I can charge for that because I do that. I put that effort in. I do the research, and it's not just like delivering fast copy. I think that's really the difference maker.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. And then it's just a matter of laddering up from the clients you have to clients that can afford to pay.

[Rob Marsh]

More, who have bigger problems to solve.

[Kira Hug]

And leveraging, you know, one client to move on to the next. And, I mean, it is. It's work that. I mean, that's really what it. You know, it's like, it doesn't happen by itself. People don't find you when you're at home or even if you have a great website, like, you still have to put in the reps and do the work.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. And I know referrals have always been huge for me. I was fortunate to start at a time where I didn't need the website. There wasn't enough of me to go around. I booked out really quick. But I see a lot of people that think, like, oh, if I'm just. If I just turn on the light, I'm open for business. Like, clients will come, or if I'm just good, the work will come to me. But there is this level of. I don't want to say self Promotion, but like visibility that you have to do. You never just start a freelance business and hide behind the keyboard and clients land in your lap. I mean, if you're coming, if you're transitioning from a career where you already have those connections, it will be the most easy for you. But a lot of us are not. And so putting in the work after you do the course or after you build your website and write beautiful copy, I think that's really hard. Is the client marketing acquisition system. Like, how do you get those leads? And a lot of us I know in my community, we don't all want to be dancing on TikTok to get clients and we're thinking about like, don't.

[Kira Hug]

Ever find me dancing on TikTok.

[Emily Reagan]

If I do, it's self deprecating and there's like some joke. But yeah, I'm never gonna say never, but like, no, that's not my style either. So it's like there is a level of content marketing, like building the right high authority, you know, assets that show you as an expert. It's a little bit of the outreach, it's the strategic partnerships, but it's. It's the stupid networking. Right. People have to know who you are. And I know in the copywriter circle, all the business owners and this happened with the VAs, they're like, who are you working with? Who do you love? And they're just whispering and tossing names around in voxer. And that's like, the goal is like, how do you get your name in that conversation?

[Kira Hug]

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so how do you grow your list? What are you doing to attract subscribers? I'm asking this a little bit selfishly because obviously I want to steal all of your ideas for list building, but I think you've done some pretty unique things.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I. One of the first things I did starting my business because I knew how important it was, right? Like, I got to grow the audience was I did that quiz. I did Shanti's quiz course and built a quiz. It doesn't need refinement now. Yeah, but what I loved about quizzes and what I found with my client work was the cost per lead was really low. And, you know, there, there has to be levels of. You have to go back and fix the messaging and just refine it because it can attract a lot of people by like really, you know, narrowing it down. The quiz was really great. At one point, I was running a quiz for a client. We were getting 25 cent leads. And her quiz, we just left that ad on. It's doing so well now. On the flip side, she's not selling well at the end, but like that's on her right? Like that's not me. Just gonna point that out. But yeah, that quiz is working well. I, how do I grow my list? You know what I really like? I feel like a black kettle saying this. I really like blogging. I really like SEO. I play a good SEO game. One of the first things I did when I started being visible in my business was blogging and like trying to really like dominate my industry and be a key person of influence. Not necessarily that influencer that you know, you know, self promoting Instagram influencer, but just really trying to show that I'm a leader in this space and people can come to me. So blogging has been good ads. I will always stand by ads is like the fastest way to do it. I think it's harder after me working with copywriters, it's hard to attract people who are sophisticated and know there's going to be an order bump and an upsell and a sales sequence. And so it's trickier I think for you as a copywriter. But yeah, I don't know, I'm just going to fizzle out on that question. What should I do, Rob?

[Kira Hug]

Well, I, I, I want to, I want to actually to go back to the idea of blogging because you're not the first person I've heard from this. Although I think blogging has changed in some ways that are pretty significant since, you know, 2008 when it, you know, was really maybe at the, at the high point when conversations actually happened on blogs and comment sections and all that. And that, that still isn't really happening. But I'm seeing a lot of people blog less on their own homepages, which you should probably still be doing because of SEO and, and because AI reads all of that stuff and you know, puts that into their engines, that's still good. But a lot of those blog posts are showing up as Facebook posts or as LinkedIn posts. Everybody goes to LinkedIn. But I'm actually, I think the algorithm in Facebook is starting to serve more and more content to people in the feed over what they used to prioritize, groups, conversations and that kind of stuff. So are you just blogging on your site or are you sharing those posts in other ways as well?

[Emily Reagan]

I try to share them, but definitely blogging on my site to increase my domain authority, like that's working really well. Sometimes I get my friends to do guest blogs too. Like I want to keep the content going there. I know with like, AI and, you know, ChatGPT, it's a little different now. Things are changing and I'm not like the best SEO person to talk about that, but, you know, I have a blog on niches for virtual assistants, and this is my top blog, and I get a couple thousand every month. People just looking for, like, where do I go? And I mean, I wrote that sucker a while ago. I've had to go back and fix it, optimize it, monetize it, but that's doing really well. Another funny thing is I think my CMO client right now, because I asked him how did he find me? And he said, Google. And that's amazing. I've also had somebody find me through ChatGPT because it asked, like, who are the fractional marketers that I should hire? And my name popped in. That's because I have a. I have a strong online presence.

[Kira Hug]

Right.

[Emily Reagan]

Dancing on TikTok. No, just kidding. But yeah, I think that the SEO one is one. If I were telling any freelance business owner to. Or service providers, like, got a couple cornerstone articles up just to demonstrate your authority and like, thought leadership on a, on a thing or two, like, related to your service.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, I think so. Again, this is another thing. Everybody listening should go try this. They should go ask Chat, GPT or Claude or whichever LLM you use and say, I want to hire a, a.

[Rob Marsh]

Copywriter or a content writer in this niche. Who would you recommend?

[Kira Hug]

Don't. Don't put in your name, but put in your niche and it'll be really interesting what you see. I tested that and was really happy, you know, when I said, hey, if I want to learn about copywriting or, you know, creating a copywriting business, who should I go? And it gave me four. I think there were four people that.

[Rob Marsh]

It recommended, one of whom was me.

[Kira Hug]

And I was like, oh, amazing, awesome. We did something. Right now, obviously, AI is scanning the Internet all the time and new content comes up, and in order to keep that current, I'm going to have to continue producing content. But like you're saying, if somebody's not doing that on their own blog or out in the world somewhere where it can get captured and it may not be getting captured on Facebook or LinkedIn the way that it does on your blog or in other places. So even if you're posting there, you should probably copy all of that into your own website as well.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, if I, if I had it more together, if I had my marketing assistant doing more, I would definitely rewrite Everything. For Medium, I would do the LinkedIn article game. Like, my LinkedIn game is like, you.

[Kira Hug]

Know, oh, mine's off. I'll post twice, and then it'll be four or five minutes. Yeah.

[Emily Reagan]

I'm like, oh, man. Oh, wait, I have a business win. Let me pop over there.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah.

[Emily Reagan]

But let me tell you how I got in Business Insider. So I was stocking out using my PR skills, my newsjacking skills. I was, like, stalking out the articles, and I'm like, they're really playing a heavy SEO game. So this, like, I want you to steal this. They're playing a heavy SEO game. You know, they're drowning in content. Like, every newspaper editor, magazine edit, like they online publication. Like, they need content. Right. Like, that's the name of the game. So I pitched myself based on keywords alone and said, like, you're already doing this. This is why. This is the next step. This is why your audience needs this. And basically, there were some virtual assistant articles, and I could tell they were old, but I could tell by looking at the slug that it was a keyword game. So I pitched it, and they're like, great. Can you write it? We'll pay you $300. I'm like, great.

[Kira Hug]

Would have done it for free. Yeah.

[Emily Reagan]

I didn't do it. I didn't. And it was shameless self promotion. I was telling my story, they paid me to do it. And I'm like, what good credibility. Like, having my own byline. I mean, that made me, like, hot and sweaty with my journal. I couldn't wait to tell my journalism professor. But also, all I did was promote myself. I'm like, that was like, the dream there. But that was me just being savvy with, like, okay, pr, SEO, my own, you know, writing over here. And that has helped a lot too. But obviously you can play the whole PR game after that and, like, use your as seen in feature things. But that was my first big media get in my little business. Yeah. And it was just understanding marketing.

[Kira Hug]

And then. And I mean, even if. If you didn't go on to do more, like, being able to leverage Business Insider should be able to open all kinds of other doors for additional pr.

[Emily Reagan]

And they did ask me to do more. I was waiting for my divorce to be over, and they're like, will you write this article? I was like, sure, let me get a final degree first, and then we can take that to the next level. But, yeah, but I was paying attention to what kind of articles are they publishing right now? And they are into how People are making money online. Like, it was a good fit for me, and it can fit for other people, too. But going to the right beat report order, the right editor with the right pitch, it was key. And, you know, and if it didn't work, I didn't die. I wasn't going to die if I got rejected.

[Kira Hug]

So. Okay, this is a really, another really important principle because this goes across the board when we're pitching clients or whatever it is. Rejection is so difficult to deal with. And obviously, if you've got tons of clients coming in, you're not really dealing with rejection. But a lot of copywriters are, and because of that, we're afraid to take that step forward.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, I'm thinking about the pitches I'm getting right now. I get pitched out the wazoo for copy help. The cold ones, you know, usually people in Eastern Europe, but they're always start their pitch with, hope you're doing well. And then they're making that, like, classic mistake of assuming I'm looking for help instead of just engaging, and they want to immediately offer me an audit. And they're immediately like, you're doing your LinkedIn all wrong and your YouTube sucks and your Instagram isn't growing. And it just makes me feel like S H I T and I don't want to read, I don't want to watch, you know, and so I was just thinking about, like, they should feel rejected. Like they did. They did do it poorly, but, you know, if they were coming from a different place. And I was like, hey, like, not right now. I actually don't need this help right now. Maybe it wouldn't sting so much, but I don't. Obviously I don't even respond, but when I think it's hard when you do put a lot of effort into those. But if you're doing it well and you're not doing making those mistakes, like, you can't feel bad if somebody doesn't need help at that time.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, the. The other thing that kills me is the pitches without doing any research. So this, in the last week, this is a true story. I've had two different pitches from two different people at two different companies saying, hey, I love what you're doing at the copywriter club. We would love to help you launch a podcast, get your first four episodes up and live, and create some social media content around that. And I'm just like, huh? How much do you love what I'm doing? If you don't realize that my number one way of showing up in the world is a podcast that's been going on now for eight years.

[Emily Reagan]

Do you even know who I am?

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, well, so my response back to both of them was, hey, name, why don't you Google the copywriter club and then get back to me? And of course, they don't ever get back to me. But, I mean, if you're going to pitch, at least know something about the company you're pitching, the person you're pitching. But like you said, don't assume anything. Don't assume they need help. Like, you're trying to establish a relationship, a friendship even, and that pays off six months from now or a year from now. And if you're looking for it to pay off on Thursday, you're just. You're not going to hit. Right. There's just no way it's going to work. Or very, very often it's not going to work. So every once in a while you'll get lucky and that maybe that one is going to keep you going, you know, with this crazy pitch style. But most of the time it doesn't work.

[Emily Reagan]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I have heard that, like, the work we do now affects our freelance business three months from now. I think Brittany McBean told me that. But I'm like, yeah, I see that. Like, I went into a little bit of a closet in July in my business, and then, like, I paid the price because I wasn't doing xyz. I think about those pitches. I think what people do wrong is assume that I need the work. Work I get a lot, by the way, for people who are like, I'm a virtual assistant. I'll come work for you. I'm like, if I am going to hire anyone, it's going to be someone from my program a hundred percent. But if we just looked at that person that we want to work with, like, as a friend, as a connection, I'm well connected. I would probably refer you, like, 10,000 times more than I actually need copywriting help right now. And so I think. But they. I think they just get the big, like, saucer eyes and think, like, oh, you know, she's just gonna hire me. And like, she's. She's my sucker. And they're not really thinking about it as like a network expand, expansion moment.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Networks are everything. Relationships are everything. And especially when you're not showing up in the office or you don't. You're not connecting with people in real life. Like, you have to be doing this offline.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. I feel like we should talk About, I don't know, I'm kind of bouncing backward. But something I am seeing in the online space is a lot of like launch agencies who offer the big ticket, 30k, 50k projects, like not doing as well right now. And so I was just thinking about, well, if I were new and I was trying to get copy clients, I think, oh, what am I trying to say here? I would just start with some of those projects that are smaller that you can get a quick win and maybe impress them and kind of let go of the ego. Like that's gotta be really hard if you've been in charge of these, you know, big website overhauls and sales pages and whatnot. But like, it can be really advantageous to go in in a different capacity and help somebody for that connection. And I see that all the time with like our email tech specialist. They're like, ah, I only do VIP days. I'm like, how many of us actually know? Like, I need a VIP day to fix my activecampaign. So I have to have had to coach people in my group. Like maybe for this well connected client who just needs someone for three hours to do X, Y, Z, you kind of acquiesce a little bit and offer a package that fits her needs. Guess who's getting all the referrals now? I'm thinking of like Janelle in my work group. Janelle, because she went in and helped somebody well connected do something small. And so I'm thinking about those outreaches. Maybe they should be something a little smaller, a little more tangible, less daunting so we can build that trust.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, getting the first win and then being able to leverage that, I think is, especially if you're starting out, you have to do that, you have to get that first win. And yeah, leading with a big project.

[Rob Marsh]

Or leading with big promises and nothing.

[Kira Hug]

To back it up is a great way to get ignored.

[Emily Reagan]

What do you tell your copywriters when they're working for big names and they're not allowed to tell anybody? Because to me, the second I hear like, oh, Selly was in Jordan Gill's business and she helped her make millions. I'm like, I want to hire Sellie. But like, how do we do that as copywriters?

[Kira Hug]

So there's, there's two things. One that I would say is you can talk about any case study or any client anonymously. So you know, you can always say, hey, there's this expert in this space. Some people will get it, who it is, but most people won't. Right? But also when you're talking to somebody one on one, I think in that situation it's okay to say, hey, look, I, I will tell you who the client is, but I'm, you know, I've agreed not to talk about them publicly or whatever. So you can't share that. So the clients know one on one. It's like, oh, yeah, I did help someone at that level, you know, make that, that big thing. It's, it's funny. The very. I think it was the second TCC IRL that we did. We were in Brooklyn and Ramit Sethi came to the party and I'm like, this is, this is awesome. I, you know, I've watched what he's done for a long time. He wasn't part of our event and, and he certainly wasn't there to endorse us, but, but he had friends there, and we're just like, yeah, come. And I asked him if I could get a picture with him, and he's like, yeah, no problem. But you have to promise me you're not going to use that, you know, like, to say you've worked for me or like, I'm like, I'm not going to, you know, I'm. This is totally ethical. I just want a picture with this guy that I just, you know, really admired or whatever. I've never used that picture anywhere. It's still sitting on my hard drive, you know. But, but it's, it's, it's like, it's that stuff. It's like you have to honor your word to people. But there are times when you can talk about things that are, you know, maybe shouldn't be disclosed, you know, publicly or that kind of a thing. So I would just say be, be super careful about it. Obviously, if you tell somebody that you're not going to, you know, publicize it, don't. On the other hand, I would put in your contract and only take it out if they insist the right to talk about the project work that you do in your own marketing. Like, that just should be part of all of our standard contracts. It's like, hey, you have all the rights to the work. Everything that I deliver is yours, entirely yours. But I reserve the right to talk about the creation process, you know, the thinking that I did, even the deliverables that I delivered. And if they say they want me to do that, and honestly, okay, I'll do that. But that's in, that's in my contract. And I, Because I want to be able to talk about how I help people, how I solve Their problems.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah. Because that makes me want to hire anyone. It's that social proof, that testimonial. I've done this work for so and so, and the selling is like 90% done for me when I hear that from a copywriter.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. Okay, we're almost out of time, Emily, but where do you. Where do you see your business going in the future?

[Emily Reagan]

Oh, this is fun.

[Kira Hug]

I guess what's next for you is really the question.

[Emily Reagan]

Yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes I'm like, wait, am I just competing with upwork? I'm like, no, no, I'm different. Like, having an existential crisis. There's. I am really putting a lot of my effort into my membership because that's where I'm having the most fun and enjoyment and just trying to be more aligned. I think for the last eight years, I've really been just like grinding and hustling. Like, I kind of talked about my divorce. I could see it coming, and I knew I needed to get some ducks in a row to be able to feed my babies. And I knew I couldn't count on the military paychecks. So I've been really hustling. And in that season of probably burnout, just to be honest, like, I think I'm too, like, numb to like, admit I was probably in burnout, but I'm just trying to be really smart about that. I am trying not to do all of the things. And so I think the. I think my membership is really what I'm focusing on this year and just helping them up level and their own businesses. A lot of us service providers are introverts. We don't sell well. We don't put ourselves out there. We don't do the visibility we need to. So I've been doing some things under the surface to help them with an assessment and what to focus on and accountability and pushing my $47 membership to be something more higher end. So I'm in that transition right now and then figuring out how can I not live launch and still make money? Because that was exhausting last year, going through a divorce and trying to launch a course and pay for the operating expenses of my business. Now, I'm probably telling you too much right now, but I think it's kind of insightful because we all go through these evolutions of like, what. What's our actual capacity? What do we love doing and where is the money just kind of flowing. Right. So I am about to rebrand my podcast. I think my new cover title will come out next week. And really leaning into the Marketing Freelancer. I have a top 1.5% podcast, which is crazy.

[Kira Hug]

That's awesome.

[Emily Reagan]

Yours probably is, too, but it's such like a niche audience. It feels really good because sometimes we're like, oh, I'll never be that or that. And it's actually doing really well. So really, like, leaning boldly into this little area I've carved out. I mean, it started as a VA and then I said unicorn VA and then I said marketing assistant. And so now we're in that next evolution of the Marketing Freelancer.

[Kira Hug]

I love that. If somebody wants to connect with you or get on your list, where should they go?

[Emily Reagan]

Yes, I have a couple things. One, find my podcast or you can connect with me on Instagram and it's emilyragan pr.

[Kira Hug]

We'll link to that in the show notes. As always, thank you.

[Emily Reagan]

I added PR because in the beginning I started with PR services and Emily Reagan was taken and I just, like, left it and not cared about it. But honestly, if anyone's listening to this and they're interested in hiring a marketing assistant, referring a marketing assistant to their client, the best way to help me is go to hireaunicorn.com Share that. This is a way for me to take a job and share it with my community and help a lot of email tech specialists, marketing assistants, marketing managers get work. And that is really what lights me up. Like helping people make money online on their own terms, using their skills, getting paid well.

[Kira Hug]

Amazing. Thanks, Emily, for, yeah, giving me your time and sharing so much about your business. This has been. This has been awesome.

[Emily Reagan]

Awesome. And I'm so excited to have you on my show next.

[Rob Marsh]

Yeah, I can't wait.

[Kira Hug]

This will be exciting. Thanks, Emily, for sharing so much about.

[Rob Marsh]

Expanding our influence as copywriters into other marketing services. Be sure to check her [e-mail] she's emilyragan PR on Instagram as well, and I've included links in the show notes to her podcast so that you can click through and hear my episode on her show, which should be available in.

[Kira Hug]

The next couple of weeks. At one point during the interview, we.

[Rob Marsh]

Were talking about how to differentiate from the millions of other copywriters and content writers out there. Specifically, I mentioned that your unique combination of skills, experience, deliverables, industry clients, pricing, and voice is a big part of how you stand out, how you become the number one person who does the thing that you do.

[Kira Hug]

I call this your X factor.

[Rob Marsh]

Putting all of that together can be a bit of a challenge. So I've put together a couple of resources to help you do it. If you go to thecopywriterclub.com authority, you'll find a short workshop that steps through how you create your own authority so potential clients can trust you and hire you. That workshop is free when you visit the page. You'll also have the opportunity to add on a bonus bundle of additional workshops that will help you through the process of figuring out your X factor and how to share it with the world. That Bundle is just $17, and it will help you determine where to show up and the audience that wants to hear what you have to offer. Before today, these workshops were only available to members who paid $1,000 a month to join the Copywriter Think tank, but you get them for just 17. And because no one really needs another workshop to watch, even at 2 times.

[Kira Hug]

Speed 2x speed, I've created a playbook.

[Rob Marsh]

For the Authority bonus bundle that walks you through the strategies in the workshop.

[Kira Hug]

Step by step so you can apply.

[Rob Marsh]

Them in your business immediately. It may be the best value that we've ever offered. Be sure to check out thecopywriterclub.com authority and then get the bonus bundle.

[Kira Hug]

And of course, all of those resources.

[Rob Marsh]

Are also available inside the Copywriter Underground, along with templates, the legal contract, and more than 70 other workshops and playbooks. Monthly coaching. You get all of [e-mail] TCU that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please.

[Kira Hug]

Share it with someone you know or.

[Rob Marsh]

If you don't know another writer or freelancer who you can share it with.

[Kira Hug]

And by the way, I find that.

[Rob Marsh]

Very hard to believe. Visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast and leave.

[Kira Hug]

A review of this show.

[Rob Marsh]

If you haven't left a review before now, I am talking to you. Now's the time. I promise. When you share the Copyright Club podcast, your friends will thank you. I thank you in advance.

[Kira Hug]

See you next week.