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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #443: Make Your Copy “Pop” with Sam Horn
01:13:49
Want your copy to stand out and get notice? Communication Specialist Sam Horn is my guest for the 443rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sam talks about how to take "regular" ideas and make them "pop".
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- [00:00]
Rob Marsh
Do you want your copy to get noticed and remembered? There are a couple of simple tricks that will help you do that. This is the Copywriter Club podcast. The ability to help your clients get noticed and remembered is one of the main things that they pay you for. And to find clients in the first place, you need to be able to get prospects to notice and remember you. If you can't do this one thing, you really can't help them with anything else because they never engage with you. There are a lot of psychological techniques to help people notice you, or help people remember you, or make people want to engage with you. So what are they? I asked communication specialist Sam Horn to walk through some of these techniques. Sam is the author of the book Pop Create the Perfect Pitch title and Tagline for Anything. She walked me through a bunch of the tricks that she uses to coin new phrases so that her readers raise their eyebrows. One of the things that you're going to notice as you listen is that Sam uses these techniques as she talks with me. You're going to hear rhymes and juxtapositions and cliches and patterns that demonstrate exactly what she is sharing the techniques that she's talking about. As we spoke on the interview, the ideas and insights that we talk about go well beyond the typical persuasion techniques like urgency and scarcity to create a more fun, more human, and more interesting connection between the ideas that you write about and your audience. This is a different sort of interview because Sam actually workshops an idea for a presentation that I have been thinking about offering to the listeners of this podcast. As she goes through the ideas that I share with her, you're going to notice that she starts throwing out more ideas and insights that I could use when I'm ready to start create and share my presentation. It's a demonstration of the insights that she shares, especially her advice to show the shift as we communicate what we sell. Near the end of the interview, Sam walked me through the questions that she asks when she starts writing a book. And she's written a bunch of them. If you're thinking of writing a book yourself, some of these questions may be useful for you. I think you're going to like what Sam has to share before we get to my interview with Sam. This episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. Unless you are hitting the 30 second skip button every time you get to this point in the show, you are no doubt familiar with the Copywriter Underground. I talk about it every week. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build a successful copywriting or content writing business. The playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges that you face in your business. Everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using AI, building authority on LinkedIn or YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other masterclasses that are in the copywriter underground. You also get dozens of templates, including a legal agreement that you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more by visiting TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU and now my interview with Sam Horn. Sam, welcome to the Copywriter Club podcast. I would. I mean, I'm thrilled to have you here. You know, author of nine books, everything about language and communication. But before we get into all of that stuff, I would like to know how you got here. How did you become an author, speaker, coach, I guess an intrigue expert, and all of the other things that people have called you.
- [03:30]
Sam Horn
Okay, so how about I'll go two places with that. Sound good? We'll start with the original origin story. Okay, perfect. Because I think our originality is. And our origin story. So I grew up in a small town, more horses than people, and I was, like, elected as valedictorian of my class. A small town, big deal, right? So I put together my little graduation speech and I share it with my dad, who ran Future Farmers of America for the state of California. And you may know, they understood speaking was very important. So I asked for his feedback, and he said, it's an okay talk. He said, you just didn't say anything I hadn't heard before. It was the little bird leaving the nest homily, you know? And I said, but, dad, there's nothing original under the sun. And he says, of course there is. He said, you know what the definition of original is if we haven't heard it before? And you know, Rob, I. At a very early age, I realized that if I'm going to ask people for their valuable time, mind, and it is my responsibility to create and craft something that they haven't seen or heard before.
- [04:38]
Rob Marsh
Okay, so that was origin number one. What's origin number two?
- [04:43]
Sam Horn
Origin number two, you may know that I helped start and run the Maui Writers Conference. Writers Digest said it was the best writers conference in the world. And we did something that was unprecedented at the time. You could jump the chain of command. You could pitch your screenplay to Ron Howard. You could pitch your novel to the head of Simon and Schuster. I mean, that had never been Done before. And after the first round, a woman came out with tears in her eyes. And I went over, I said, are you okay? She said, I just saw my dream go down the drain. And I said, what happened? She said, I put my 300 page manuscript on the table. The agent took one look at it, said, I can't read all that. Tell me in 60 seconds what it's about and why someone would want to read it. And I talked with Bob Loomis, who was senior VP of Random House that night, and I said, bob, I'm seeing a lot of people's dreams go down the drain today. What's going on? And he said, sam, we've seen thousands of proposals. We make up our mind in the first 60 seconds whether something is commercially viable. And Rob, that next day, I stood in the back and I watched the pitch sessions, and I could predict who was getting a deal without hearing a word being said. Guess how.
- [06:00]
Rob Marsh
I've got to guess that. It's like in the look of the face of the person they were pitching, they were interested in something.
- [06:07]
Sam Horn
And guess what, it gets really specific. The eyebrows. Because, see, like, if we're telling someone our idea, if we're proposing something, if we're pitching our book or whatever, if the decision maker's eyebrows, like, crunch up your eyebrows right? Now, don't you feel confused? Right, confused.
- [06:24]
Rob Marsh
Or like, I've got to look into this deeper maybe, or I don't understand exactly what's going on here.
- [06:30]
Sam Horn
You know, that happens rarely. However, you know today's attention span, right? If people don't get it, they're gone, right? So if people's eyebrows are knit, furrowed, crunched up, it means they don't get it. And confused people don't say yes. Now, if their eyebrows don't move, it means they're unmoved or they've had Botox. Now lift your eyebrows, if you would. Ah. Do you feel intrigued, curious, like you want to know more? You know, I became a woman on a mission. I founded the Intrigue Agency because if we want other people to care about what we care about, we've got to turn infobesity into the eyebrow test.
- [07:15]
Rob Marsh
Okay, so let's talk a bit about that, because this is not just so. I'm thinking about this in two different ways. Number one, copywriters and content writers are working for clients. And the work that we do has to get the attention of their customers. Whatever we put out there has to get attention, otherwise it doesn't work. But maybe even more importantly, before that can happen, Copywriters, content writers have to get the attention of their prospects and their future clients. And if that doesn't happen, they never get to write anything. So how do we do it? How do we get attention?
- [07:49]
Sam Horn
Well, as you know, there's a whole book, Pop, and my book got your attention on that. So here are a few specific techniques. And by the way, Rob, your audience is copywriters. I hope they have pen and paper right now, because we're going to jump right in and I'm going to share techniques that have helped my clients, you know, get millions in contracts, deals, et cetera.
- [08:08]
Rob Marsh
So, yeah, so grab your pen and paper and I'm just going to underline. You mentioned Pop, your book. And before we started recording, I said, you know, I think this is one of the better books the writers ought to be using. Not it's not really about writing so much as it's about how to make your words pop, literally the title of the book. So if you haven't got it, we'll link to it in the show notes, make sure you pick up a copy. But yeah, let's talk about some of those ideas.
- [08:31]
Sam Horn
Good. Well, let's talk about. All right, Content writers, copywriters have two bosses, right? First, they're decision maker, right? To get their attention and their favorable attention. Oh, I haven't heard. Oh, that's clever. Oh, yes, that will work. And then it needs to drive business, right? It needs to actually drive traffic to the store or registrations for the whatever. So I'll give you a quick example of how we do this, is that I believe. Don't repeat cliches. Rearranged cliches, right? So whatever the topic or the product or the demographic is, we can just start writing down what do people know is true about this? What do they believe about this? You can just go to the cliche dictionary and put in what are cliches around this, right? But we're not content to be common because George Washington Carver said, when you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world. So, see, we take what is known, and our goal is to make it unknown. We take what's familiar. We want it to be fresh. So Avon is an example. They were having their breast cancer walks, right? And they were looking for a tagline. So if you go to the cliche dictionary and you put in, you know, walks, right? Well, they couldn't find anything. Walk, don't run. No, no, no, no. So now you look for cliches. It's alphabetical. Order with a keyword that's alliterative that starts with the same sound or letter as yours. They came up with a wonderful slogan. Do you know what it is?
- [10:11]
Rob Marsh
I should know what it is. I don't have it on top of my head, though.
- [10:15]
Sam Horn
It's good. Things come to those who walk nice. Right. You shift off weight. And now when you're close to what's familiar and you give that little twist, the eyebrows go up. Right. You know how Einstein knew he had a good idea?
- [10:32]
Rob Marsh
I'm guessing that it made his eyebrows go up.
- [10:35]
Sam Horn
That and he laughed out loud. Right. Because I know when I'm working with clients, you know, I'm taking notes on what they're saying, I'm inking it when they think it, et cetera. And when the dots connect and I get a new entity, it's like the eyebrows fly up and out comes this. Aha, right? This bark of laughter that means eureka. We have found something that's worth pursuing.
- [10:57]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. I mean, from a psychological standpoint, the newness of the idea of a cliche that's been changed a little bit. It's almost like unlocking a puzzle. And so it's clicks in your brain and it makes it stick, which is maybe another part of making sure that we're memorable.
- [11:17]
Sam Horn
In fact, in a moment, I'll share my formula for turning what's forgettable into what's repeatable and retweetable. Sound good?
- [11:25]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Let's do it.
- [11:26]
Sam Horn
Let's go back to your first question about another way we can make something pop. How we can pop out of the pack instead of get lost in the pack. How we can stand out from the crowd instead of get lost in the crowd. Sound good?
- [11:38]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Let's do it.
- [11:39]
Sam Horn
Well, here's here. We're going to marry Oliver. Our life. I bet everyone who is part of your community understands that our life is our lab. Right? We constantly have our antenna up and we. Mary Oliver, she said, instructions for life. Pay attention, be astonished, tell about it. Right. Anytime. We're astonished. Oh, isn't that. I haven't heard that before. It's got potential. Then we figure out how we can run with it so that it is practical and relevant and functional. Going to drive results. I'll give you an example. University of Hawaii asked me to do a program on conflict resolution. Boring. Right? And if we're a boar, snore and shore. Not going to work. So I turned it into Dealing with Difficult people without becoming one yourself. Now, that's a good title. Because it's alliterative. When you put it in a beat, you make it easy to repeat, right? So it's dealing with difficult people without becoming one yourself. So that is a pretty good title. Here's the thing, though. You go in and you put into search difficult people. Thousands of people speaking about that, hundreds of books. So, see, it won't pop out. It's clever, but it still is not one of a kind. It's still one of many. Well, I was very fortunate, Rob, because at our first break, there was a gentleman in the front row. He didn't get up to go get a cup of coffee, you know, go outside. He just sat there gazing off into space. I was curious and I went over, I said, what are you thinking about? And he said, sam, I'm a real estate broker. He said, I deal with some very demanding and arrogant people. He said, I'm tired of it. He said, I took this course because I thought you were going to teach us some zingers to fire back at people and put them in their place. He said, that's not what this is about. And I agreed. This is not about putting people in their place. It's about putting ourselves in their place so we can respond with compassion instead of contempt. And he was the one who said, I'm a student of martial arts. He said, I've studied karate, taekwondo, judo. He said, what you're talking about is like verbal form of kung fu, isn't it? Eureka. Tung fu, right? Tung fu, an original word I was able to trademark that I've been able to merchandise and monetize it. It's still selling around the world. It's one of the top business books in Turkey for 20 years. Number three in South Korea. 20 years after it was published, they said, it's changing the patriarchy now. Let's put it into practice for your community. For everyone. Watching and listening is like, I hope you have a word bank. If you're working with a client and they want you to sell a product or a service or a new launch, whatever, just come up with 20 words that you would use when frequently explaining that describing, right, that's your word bank. Now, alphabetize each word. Take a word, run it through the Alphabet, changing the sound of the first syllable to match the corresponding letter. So see, let's take tung fu, unfu bun fu, sun fu, dun fu, oh, fun fu. That's how to handle hassles with humor instead of harsh words. Gung fu, gung ho tong fu. There's lung fu, run fu for when tung fu doesn't work. Tung Su for lawyers, it's Yung Fu for kids. Do you see how if you take a core word that's meaningful to your client, you run it through the Alphabet, you can come up with first of their kind words maybe can get the domain around it, you know, maybe have a one of a kind campaign about it all for just a little bit of brain work.
- [15:26]
Rob Marsh
I remember the first time I saw Tung Fu and also your title, talking on eggshells. Those kinds of unique twists. I mean, immediately I just. I thought, that is freaking brilliant, you know, and it's one of those things where I'm like, man, I wish I had come up with that. It's such a unique idea. But oftentimes, you know, we're not. We don't have the luxury of, you know, being in a conference with somebody, you know, talking back and forth. Oftentimes when we're trying to come up with these ideas, we're sitting at our desks and it's not always easy. Even, you know, with some of the tools that you're sharing, like, you know, alphabetize it or find the cliche, right? Like, so how do we make ourselves more creative in these office spaces where sometimes the creativity is pulled out of us?
- [16:13]
Sam Horn
Okay, paper and pen, right? Okay. Put a vertical line down the center right now. Because people say, sam, how does your brain work? I juxtapose everything, Rob. It is the quickest way to make complex ideas crystal clear. Furthermore, my Got yout Attention book was published by Barrett Kohler, who was publisher of the year a few years ago. Steve Persante was the publisher. And I said, steve, what is your criteria for publishing a book? He said, three words. Ready?
- [16:45]
Rob Marsh
Okay.
- [16:46]
Sam Horn
Show the shift. Show the shift. So everyone right now think of something. A campaign they're working on, a client they're working with, some type of copy they need to write. Over on the left right now, put beliefs and behaviors that sabotage success. All right, so put beliefs, behaviors that sabotage success. Now over on the right, put beliefs and behaviors that support success. So it's sabotage. On the left, support on the right. Now, also on the left, put compromise. You know, what are attitudes and actions that compromise our effectiveness? Over on the right, what are attitudes and actions that contribute to our effectiveness? So in a moment, we can do this for a campaign you're working on or you're going to name your book or something like that we can play. I'll give you an example of how this works, is that we just were talking about Tung Fu. So I gave a Tung FU Workshop for Kaiser Permanente. And I went back three years later as a patient. And when I walked in, the receptionist recognized me and there wasn't anyone in the lobby. And she beckoned me over and she pointed. And her words to lose, words to use reminder card was still taped to her desk. And now here's the story. She said, sam, they hired me because I'm the first point of contact. I'm pretty nice. And I never used to understand why people were so mean to me when I was so nice to them. And then I took your workshop and I realized I was using all those words on the left, you know. Well, I'd like to help you, but. Well, you should have called earlier. Well, I'm sorry, but I can't give you an appointment right now because, you know, he's out. You know, he's out of the office this week, whatever. So. And then replace it on the right. So what I'm telling everyone, if over on the left, you have what doesn't work and what does when you are writing copy, people read left to right. And furthermore, you know, if it's long, they're gone. So if we have a paragraph longer than four lines, people don't read it. They skip it or skim it. Right. However, if we put over. You actually put a vertical line right down the center of a website. You put it down, right down the middle of a pitch. And over on the left is like, you know, you may think, da, da, da, da, da, da. Are you struggling with da, da, da, da, da, da. You know, are you tired of da da, da, da, da, da Bullet, bullet, bullet, Right? Because, Rob, they can eyeball it. They don't have to read it. They can eyeball it. Now we have. Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Yes, that's how I feel. Yes, I'm dealing with that. Would you like. Wouldn't it be wonderful if. And now here is the preferred behavior. Here is, you know, the solution to the problem, et cetera. However, here's the thing, is that if you write that out, you know, people's attention span these days, they're going to start skimming, scanning it, and they don't get the shift. Right. They don't get the. Yes, that's true for me. Yes, that's happening in my life. Yes, that's a problem for me. And they don't get the. Aha. The immediate gratitude, gratification. Right. Of like. Yes, I would like that. It's the opposite of this. Yes, that would be wonderful. And it's do you see how that framework can be used? I just used it for one example. However, I use it at the end of every chapter in every book because it summarizes it, it reinforces it. And guess what? Now you have like a business card people put on their refrigerator and they're keeping you in sight in mind instead of out of sight out of mind.
- [20:44]
Rob Marsh
This is a technique that should be familiar to copywriters anyway, because we are, our very jobs depend on our ability to take somebody from the pain or the problem or, you know, the concern that they have right now and help them see how the product or service that we're writing about is going to produce a transformation, a result, a better future. Right? And so you're basically saying, draw it out and use it as part of the brainstorming session, the naming, you know, in the thinking process as we're trying to figure out, okay, how do we stand out?
- [21:17]
Sam Horn
You see, Rob, I knew that this would resonate with you because it is part of what you do. And we talked a little bit in advance about infobesity. Right? Everybody over on the left, put infobesity. Wa. Wa, wa. Gone. Right. We can't earn a living if we're spewing infobesity. We're not gonna get deals, we're not gonna get results. You know, we're not gonna earn our living. Over on the right is the eyebrow test. Okay? If in that first 60 seconds, even someone who is skeptical or busy is now motivated to pay attention. So would you like a specific technique that your community can use around that?
- [21:54]
Rob Marsh
Yes, please.
- [21:55]
Sam Horn
Okay, so juxtapose it. Over on the left, put infobesity. Over on the right, put eyebrow test. Over on the left, put tell. Over on the right, put ask. Now, we both believe you give a real life example to show how this works in the real world. Then we unpack it, we reverse engineer it so it's replicable, correct?
- [22:17]
Rob Marsh
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Sam Horn
Okay, so here's the real life example. I was pitch coach for Springboard Enterprises, and they've helped female entrepreneurs generate 91 billion in funding and valuation contracts at this point. So Kathleen Callender was one of my clients, and she came to me, Sam, I got good news and bad news. I said, what's the good news? She said, I'm speaking in front of a room full of inventors and investors at the Paley center in New York. I said, that's fantastic. I said, what's the bad news? She said, I'm going at 2:30 and I only have 10 minutes. She said, Sam, you can't say anything in 10 minutes. I said, Kathleen, you don't have 10 minutes.
- [22:55]
Rob Marsh
You have about 60 seconds.
- [22:58]
Sam Horn
60 seconds, that's right. They will have heard 16 others. It's 2:30 in the afternoon. Well, Rob, here is the 60 second opening we came up with that not only won Kathleen Callender of Pharmajet millions in funding, she was Business Week's most promising social entrepreneur of that year. So now, first Perspective Infobesity on the left. Do you know how Kathleen used to introduce what she had invented her business, et cetera? Ready?
- [23:25]
Rob Marsh
I don't, but yeah, tell me.
- [23:26]
Sam Horn
It's a medical delivery device for subcutaneous inoculations. It's a what look. Oh no, those eyebrows. Right. She just explained it. She told me what it was and a lot of times it's confusing. Right? We don't get it. We're gone. Now listen to this. 60 second opening. Ready? Did you know there are 1.8 billion vaccinations given every year? Did you know up to a third of those are given with reused needles? Did you know we're spreading and perpetuating the very diseases we're trying to prevent? Imagine if there were a painless one. Use needle for a fraction of the current cost. You don't have to imagine it. We're doing it. She's off and running. Are your eyebrows up?
- [24:14]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. I mean, it almost sounds like the beginning of a TED talk.
- [24:17]
Sam Horn
Well, I work with a lot of people on their TEDx talks or south by Southwest talks. Their UN talks are Davos talks. And I cannot tell you, you know, how many people are gone in the first 60 seconds in this talk. We're going to. It's like, no. So you are. Right now. Let's unpack it. Because everyone watching, listening, I want you to think right now. In fact, Rob, what is something. Are you giving a presentation in the near future or do you have a campaign? What's a priority? And we're going to do this in real time.
- [24:47]
Rob Marsh
So I don't have a formal presentation coming up, but I am actually going to be working on a workshop on AI artificial intelligence and how to use it to create custom GPTs for writers in their business. So basically to help some of that repetitive task stuff get done by, by an AI as opposed to having to go through that ourselves. Okay, so that was a pretty boring way to, to talk about my, my upcoming workshop.
- [25:15]
Sam Horn
Guess what we're going to do? We're going to go over to Intrigue. We're going to go over to eyebrows up. Right? So first, here are the three steps so that everyone who's listening and watching can do this for their priority while we're doing it for your priority. Okay, Step number one, what are three did you know questions you can ask with startling statistics that get eyebrows up and people are thinking, where do I find these startling? We just Google it, right? It's like, you know, and we need to put in what are surprising statistics about this demographic, about this product, about this problem. And our goal is if we're an expert and it's like, oh, I didn't know it was that bad. Oh, I didn't know it was getting worse. Oh, I didn't know that many people were being affected. I didn't know it costs that much. I didn't know it took that long. You see? Oh, oh, oh. Right? Now furthermore, since we're asking instead of telling, we just turn this into a two way conversation instead of a one way conversation. Right? Explaining is one way. No, asking is two way. Right? Step two, use the word imagine. The word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation because they're picturing our point. They are seeing what we're saying and when something confusing becomes clear. In fact, right over on the left, confusing, over on the right, clear. Do you know what people say when something confusing becomes crystal clear?
- [26:50]
Rob Marsh
I finally understand it now or I get it.
- [26:53]
Sam Horn
Oh, I see now. Really, literally and figuratively, they see it now, right? That's the power of that word. Imagine. Now link it still. Step two, link the word imagine with three benefits or advantages of what it is you're recommending or requesting. For example, go back to calendar. You know, Kathleen, think about her decision makers. What are they worried about thinking about? Well, they're thinking about those reused needles. So we made it one use. They're thinking about painful inoculations. We made it painless. Most decision makers care about money, so we made it a fraction of the current price. Do you see how in a world of infobesity, we crafted a one sentence uvp, you know, unique value where people going, sounds good. Who wouldn't want that in one sentence, right? And plus there's continuity, right? Because we're referencing back what we said in the beginning. Third step, write down these words right? Now you don't have to imagine it. We're doing it now. You come in with your precedents and your evidence to show this isn't pie in the sky, this isn't speculative, this is a done deal. Here's a testimonial from A satisfied client. Here's some recent. A recent article that talks about your company or about this, this new advance. Right. So you've got the three steps. Now let's do it for you. All right.
- [28:24]
Rob Marsh
All right.
- [28:25]
Sam Horn
Okay. So the workshop. What's your title of the workshop?
- [28:29]
Rob Marsh
So I don't have a title just because again, I just started thinking about this earlier today, but I would probably say it's something like how to create a custom GPT for copywriters. Yeah. Very basic, right?
- [28:43]
Sam Horn
Okay, so we start there. And now, Rob, how about we have an agreement and I do this with all my clients and audiences. If I say something, if it is in alignment with your vision, voice and values, you're welcome to run with it. If I say something, you think, nope, doesn't work for me. Interrupt me and we'll tweak it or toss it. Okay?
- [29:03]
Rob Marsh
Okay, Sounds great.
- [29:04]
Sam Horn
Okay. Because I'm going to jump in with both feet here. So how to. Something once again. How to what?
- [29:11]
Rob Marsh
How to create a custom GPT for your writing business or for your copywriting business?
- [29:18]
Sam Horn
For your writing business. Okay. Now, I know you're a copywriter, so there are pros and cons of how to, right? Yeah. Is the pros, of course, is that people feel they're going to get taught. And in the old days, a how to book was a business book was, you know, and there's a promise of deliverables there. Well, in today's infobesity world, sometimes people don't want to be taught. Right. And how to if they're low on bandwidth. So let's see if we can play with that. And let's use the word surprising. Right. Not even seven steps too, which is still prescriptive. Still, for someone who's low on bandwidth, is feeling like it's 8:00 at night. I just don't have the energy. But surprising ways, right? Unexpected. Do you see? We've just up leveled it. We curated the content a little bit. Now we have a creative chatgpt for your business. But let's put a verb in there. Is this growing? Is this scaling? Is this future proofing? What would be a verb that would.
- [30:23]
Rob Marsh
Pop that growing is probably good. There's also probably some ideas just around creativity or coming up with, you know, more options. So. And growing kind of lends itself to that kind of an idea too. Right.
- [30:42]
Sam Horn
Okay. All right. Now we're playing. You know, this is like word chess, right? We're thinking a couple of moves ahead. So we have one option of using a verb like Growing your business. Now we're back to what George Washington Carver said. He said, when you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world. So we go back and you ask yourself, is growing charged enough? Right. Is it got? Because John Cotter out of Harvard said, do you know what the number one prerequisite is for change?
- [31:17]
Rob Marsh
I don't know what he said. No.
- [31:19]
Sam Horn
A sense of urgency. Okay, so does that have urgency, the word growing, right?
- [31:25]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. And probably not, because growing your business is almost a cliche in itself, right? We've heard that now for 20 years. So it's going to fade in with everything else that's out there.
- [31:36]
Sam Horn
Okay? Now, by the way, this is why we ink it when we think it. You had a little pop opportunity there because the cliche is grow your business. Maybe you would say, flow your business. Right? How to flow your business? Right? Now that's a LinkedIn blog, right? Because we're riffing off what. And just like jazz musicians riff off common chords to make uncommon music. You can do that. So that's an opportunity. Let's come back here to surprising ways to create chatgpts. What did you use? Form systems? What?
- [32:12]
Rob Marsh
Well, I said a custom GPT to get. Yeah, Custom GPT.
- [32:17]
Sam Horn
Custom GPT. Okay. Is it. I'm just playing. Is it a three step custom GPT? What is it?
- [32:25]
Rob Marsh
I mean, it could be. It really depends on what process we're trying to automate with the GPT. So it's pretty easy to do, but you have to understand what it is that you're building from start to finish.
- [32:41]
Sam Horn
I understand. And I also think we have an opportunity here because a lot of people in this space, even in the title, we want people to say, I haven't seen that before. It's specific enough, it's pragmatic enough, it's intriguing, it got my attention. And even in the title, I already have a little trust and faith that this is going to be an roi. Right? And as you know, numbers matter, right? It's seven habits, Stephen Covey, you know, it's four agreements, et cetera. So if you say surprising ways to create a customized three step chatgpt, you know, or something like that. Do you see? We up leveled the promise a little bit in terms of a deliverable. All right, and now we switch to something your business. We need a bottom line. It is to. And boy, Rob, every day I fight not going over to the dark side, you know, because we know all the gimmicks, right? You know, just for today disc, you know, only for you. I try not to do that. I really try and be in integrity, honor psychology and do it in a way that I'm not pulling a bait and switch on people. Right?
- [33:52]
Rob Marsh
Yeah.
- [33:53]
Sam Horn
Yeah. So now we come down to it's not just for your business, right? It's for your business to do what or for you to do what? Run with that for a second.
- [34:05]
Rob Marsh
Well, so I mean, let's say that we were building a custom GPT for a research process. I mean, you know, when you talk about the three questions, you know, questions might be something like, do you realize or did you know the average copywriter spends, you know, 20 hours researching before they can even start writing. Right. And then the promise of this GPT might be to reduce that from 20 hours to 10 minutes. Right. That, that almost sounds like too big of a switch, you know, to, to be believable, but it literally can do that kind of a shift. Right? So that kind of a promise, now you can start to see, oh, now this opens up so much more opportunity for me to spend my time actually writing copy, creating the thing that I want to do, coming up with better ideas. Right?
- [34:54]
Sam Horn
I love what you're doing. In fact, you're already coming up with your three questions. So, you know, did you know, you know, the average copywriter. We're not going to say average copywriter, right? It's most copywriters, whatever. Most copywriters spend a minimum of 20 plus hours researching, you know, their, their project, their campaign or something. Right? That. Oh, wow. And now we're going to go another, did you know we're not going to duplicate that? So what is something else that gets my eyebrows up?
- [35:24]
Rob Marsh
So another idea that might be interesting is the importance of the headline. So I think David Ogilvy is famous for saying that 80% of an ad's punch or power comes from the headline. But most copywriters literally spend no time or only write one headline, right? So, you know, there's, there's a question that I would probably build around that idea where there's not enough effort going into this one singularly important part of an ad sales letter, email, whatever, that's.
- [35:58]
Sam Horn
Excellent because see, it, it's like pearls on a necklace, right? It doesn't just say the same thing a different way. It jumps to a whole new aspect. A who, new ROI win of this, right? So for you to say something like, do you know we're just playing, but do you know the majority of copywriters spend less than 60 seconds on their Headline when that can determine whether or not something gets read. I'm getting too long here. But we need to give that teeth. Right, Right. When that is the most important part of their campaign or something like that. Right. So how would you craft that sentence with the metric, but the consequence of it?
- [36:39]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I mean, this is the kind of thing that should take us hours to come up with. But you know, you're not putting your time on. The most important task is really the idea that I want to get to.
- [36:53]
Sam Horn
Okay, so since this is our first chance to get them, we're going to say 20 hours, you know, research, you know, did you know that most copywriters spend seconds on their headline? Not understanding it can undermine everything they're trying to do, or something like that. Right. We need that consequence. Now, what's the third? Did you know?
- [37:18]
Rob Marsh
So a third. I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but I would probably be asking a question around the fact that this isn't artificial intelligence tool and most of us don't know how to use them to get the results that make them effective or make them usable. So, you know, maybe the question is, did, did you know that you could use an, an AI tool to do all of this for you in minutes or to get the kinds of results that it would take us hours to get before something along those lines. And again, I know I'm being too wordy here too, but that's the idea.
- [38:04]
Sam Horn
We draft and then we craft. Right? So now we're going to save that for the imagine, right? Because that's when. Imagine if you could do all that in seconds. Imagine if you could get better results. So that's part of our imagine. We're going to come back to this and the did you know is something about. Did you know many copywriters are using AI generators ineffectively and inefficiently, you know, and in a way that actually sabotages their success or something like that. Right?
- [38:39]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, totally fair.
- [38:40]
Sam Horn
Okay, so see, boom, boom, boom. Now imagine if there were a way for you to use AI effectively and efficiently to reduce your research from 20 hours to. And it's nice to do 20. 20, 20 hours, 20 minutes, you know, or 10 minutes. So it's alliterative, you know, and the next one was headline and could generate, generate commercially viable clever headlines. That would never have occurred to you otherwise or something like that, right?
- [39:14]
Rob Marsh
Yep, yep.
- [39:15]
Sam Horn
Okay.
- [39:16]
Rob Marsh
Exactly.
- [39:16]
Sam Horn
So you don't have to imagine it. That's what we're going to cover in our, in our 60 minute workshop or that's what I'm going to cover in this YouTube series or something. And look at all that you've done in 60 seconds.
- [39:29]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, well, and I mean, I really like this process because, like you were saying at the very beginning, everything fades into the background. And, you know, it only takes an idea to show up one time before it's copied endlessly. And so thinking about this stuff over and over, every time you relaunch a product, every time that you show up on stage, it's almost like you need to go through this process again just to make sure that it still stands out, that it still catches attention, that it's not, you know, becoming the cliche. You know, it used to be original. All cliches were original once. But by the, you know, fifth or sixth or 100th time we see it now, it's the cliche and. And we ignore it again, I tell you.
- [40:16]
Sam Horn
So we cannot rest on our creative laurels, can we? No. And yet here the good news is it's an intellectual Disneyland. You know, Catherine Graham said, to do what you love and feel that it matters. How could anything be more fun? So, see, I take my notebook everywhere with me. I mean, I'm out on a stream trail walk. I got my notebook, you know, and so when I hear something that gets my eyebrows up, I write it down or I record it to capture it in the moment, because they don't call them fleeting thoughts for nothing. And if we do that, this becomes a skill. And I tell you, for me, it's permanent employment, because AI cannot do this and cannot do it in the moment in a unique way that at least gives someone a competitive edge. I'll give you an example. I'm speaking at conscious capitalism, and when I do a book signing, normally people stand in line and they clutch their book and they don't talk to each other. And if you talk to a couple people, they leave because it's going to be too long before we get to them. Right? So I always form a little community and we brainstorm, strategize people's projects. So here's a man, he gives me. My question is always, so, you know, what are you excited about achieving this year? So it makes it topical and timely. And so this man said, well, I'd like to do more paid speaking. I said, great. I said, what's your topic? He said, leadership. I said, oh, right, common topic. Thousands and thousands. So if he wants to get more paid speaking on leadership, even if he has a great platform or credentials, there's still thousands of People out there. So juxtaposing over on the right is his topic, leadership. Now I ask another question, I ask all my clients. It's like, what do you do when you're not working? Right? Because if you're a pilot, if you play pickleball, you know, if you ride horses, if you coach or whatever. He said, I host salons where we do Shakespeare sonnets. Well, that's interesting, right?
- [42:15]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, that's different.
- [42:17]
Sam Horn
So there's potential there, right? So the way my brain works, because I have integrated all of these processes, so it's just how I roll these days. I'm thinking, okay, Shakespeare leadership. Shakespeare leadership. Oh, and Einstein laugh. I laughed out loud. I mocked up a book cover, and I said, okay, I'm going to show you in the group something, and if you like it, go to GoDaddy right now. Because if no one has taken this, you just got yourself a million dollar brand name, book title and presentation title all in seconds. I said, ready? And I showed it to him. And it said, to lead or not to lead. Guess what, Rob? No one had that. In all these years of speaking and writing about leadership, no one had ever said, to lead or not to lead. So the next day he came back grinning from ear to ear. Got that for 12 bucks. And it's because we're using these processes and it's not hard work, Rob. It is great fun.
- [43:22]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. So. So you. I mean, we could talk about these techniques all day long. It'd probably be better for people just to buy the book and, you know, to start going through them. But you also started talking about how you've made this your career. Can we talk a bit about this with. I mean, we're just talking about this AI workshop. A lot of people are threatened by AI. I'm tempted to think that I can help with some of this kind of thinking. But what are your thoughts on this and what we as creatives bring to the table? You know, if. If I wanted to be the next Sam Horn, you obviously are filling that role, so there's no need for another Sam Horn. But if. If Rob Marsh wanted to do some things like what Sam Horn does, helping people come up with ideas, helping people stand out, or, you know, with their messaging and. And really tightening it up like that. What do we need to bring to the table so that we're not replaced by, you know, the. The content bots?
- [44:16]
Sam Horn
Okay, so in a moment, we'll talk about AI Because I understand you're using it and almost as part is using it ethically, right? Using it efficiently. So we'll get to that in a second. However, the answer to the first question is to Rod Laver, your career. Now, what. Are you a tennis player by any chance, Rob?
- [44:36]
Rob Marsh
So I'm, I, no, not a good tennis player. I wouldn't call myself a tennis player. I've played tennis, I've play pickleball. I enjoy tennis. Let's say that I'm not a. I wouldn't call myself a player.
- [44:49]
Sam Horn
Okay, well, you're a player, pickleball player. And Rod Laver, as you may know, run the Grand Slam of tennis twice. So the Australian Open, French Wimbledon and the US Open. I had the privilege of working with Rod Laver on Hilton Head Island. So we would put on tennis camps, national tennis camps, and he would be showing someone how to volley and he would go, it's like this. People go, flop, flop, flop, flop. And he'd look at him. It's like, no, it's like this, you know, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, flop, flop. See, it had been so long, Rob, since he had gone back and even thought about the mechanics, right? He just thinks, no, you know what? He's playing tennis, chess. Okay, they're over there. I'm going to pull them out of position. I'm going to drop it.
- [45:35]
Rob Marsh
You know, all that, that curse of knowledge. We forget what it's like to be new at something.
- [45:40]
Sam Horn
Guess what? We're going to remember it. Because therein lies the key to our organic creativity. So I'm going to ask people when they get an idea, when they come up with a winning campaign, when they get a yes to a project, that they take a few minutes to reverse engineer it. All right, how did I turn that skeptic into a believer? How did I get that amount of money for that contract? Right? Because if we start staying alert to our process and if we codify it so it is replicable, we make shortcuts available to others. So what can AI not do? AI can't be in your life where you're reading something and the passage lights you up and your mind riffs off it and comes up with something in the moment that's relevant to your audience or your campaign or whatever. And you write about that because you're first to market with it. Now, unfortunately, people run with it these days, you know, but you were there first, and at least you can leverage the originality and the creativity and get known for doing it for your clients because you have developed that muscle and that ability and that way of having your own organic creativity and just feeding it into a machine and letting them do it for us and having cognitive creative decline.
- [47:07]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, yeah, no, that. It makes total sense. Obviously, we have to have the experiences that we bring to the table in order for this to even have a starting point. Right.
- [47:19]
Sam Horn
It's so funny you say that because. Okay, 60 second story. But it really does have a point. Okay. Okay. So I just finished a very intensive consult. My son Andrew called and he sensed something in my voice and he said, what's up, Mom? I said, andrew, I'm so exhausted. I don't know how I'm going to get on that plane tonight. I've got to fly back to D.C. fly back to San Francisco in a couple days for a keynote. I don't know how I'm going to do it. Well, thank heaven for Andrew, because he said, mom, there's something about you I don't understand. You have your own business. You can do anything you want, and you're not taking advantage of it. Well, out of the mouths of 20 somethings, I gave away 90% of what I owned. And I took my business on the road for a year by the water, and I interviewed people. And it ended up being, you know, some days, not a day in the wake. But here's the thing. The phrase right now is like, oh, I couldn't take time off work. Right?
- [48:19]
Rob Marsh
Right.
- [48:19]
Sam Horn
It's not taking time off work. It's taking time on life. Right. See, I went places. I swam in Walden Pond. You know, I swam with Zach the dolphin. I sailed the Chesapeake Bay. Right. All these new experiences, I'm riffing off them. I'm interviewing people. Are you happy? If so, why? If not, why not? I'm codifying their answers. So I have anecdotal evidence, wrote a book. Someday is not a day in the week. Speaking on that now, before I went, I announced that at the National Press Club. And three people came up to me afterwards. And one said, sam, are you sick? Because, see, she was assuming I had to be on my deathbed to do something like this. Right.
- [49:03]
Rob Marsh
This is that bucket list trip that. Yeah, it makes sense.
- [49:06]
Sam Horn
And I'm on a mission to change people's mind. The next one said, sam, is this a midlife crisis? I said, no, it's midlife clarity. And the third was a big investor from Tiger 21. And he said, sam, you better not let this story get out, because if your clients and meeting planners find out you're off the grid, you're going to be out of sight, out of mind, and you're going to come back, and your business won't be waiting for you when you're ready for it. So I had kind of a crisis of conscience there. Was I risking everything I'd built for the last 30 years? Was this frivolous? Right. And what I discovered is what you and I are talking about is when we intentionally immerse ourselves in an intriguing life. We meet people we haven't met before. You know, we are going places we haven't been before, and we marry Oliver. It. We are coming up with creative observations, insights, epiphanies, and we become known for that. And once again, it's hi, human intelligence and not AI.
- [50:07]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, well, and once you have that baseline, though, that's what AI actually can help magnify, because now AI can help us make some of those connections because it's so good at looking at massive data, and our brains are really good at focusing on somewhere between one and seven things at a time or whatever. And so when you can marry a wide range of experiences like that and start to use AI to find some of those connections, and then that spurs even more hi, human intelligence as we're thinking about it. To me, that's where the power of that tool works with us to produce great work.
- [50:45]
Sam Horn
I guess you can tell I'm a little bit on a mission around this, and here's why. You know, I've got a pretty good community on LinkedIn, and I would say 95% of the content on LinkedIn these days is AI generated. And you know that Lib, Jen and Mehta took millions of books without permission, without attribution, and without compensation. They took nine of my books. They just fed it into AI. Thought leaders that I really used to respect are using regurgitated content that does not belong to them. It's on the backs of other people's proprietary AI that was not compensated, no respect to copyright law. So you and I both agree that AI can be an efficient tool when used ethically. For sure. And before we relegate our original thinking to a machine that we become reliant upon, so we cannot do it ourselves. You and I are talking about longevity and about the ethics of our trade and furthermore, the intellectual Disneyland of getting good at this because it is our sustainability, right? If we rely too much on AI, we are one of many. If we really want to be doing this five years from now, 10 years from now, and people cannot compete with us because they've lost the ability to do this, then we are doing it, I believe, for all the right reasons. And I'm A businesswoman. So I'm not just talking about doing this ethically, altruistically. I'm talking about with my business hat on and with my individual hat on, that we make a commitment. You know, we talk about Rod Laver. Rod Laver spent thousands of hours working on his fitness and on his strokes, et cetera. The equivalent in our industry of copywriting, creative content, et cetera, is that we continue to put in our 10,000 hours. We don't abdicate it or delegate it.
- [52:54]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I agree. I don't think that the U.S. open would be the same if we had two robots hitting tennis balls to each other. It might be kind of fun to watch for a minute or two, but without the backstories, without the effort, without all of the things that go into making those players human, we lose a lot, for sure.
- [53:18]
Sam Horn
Yeah.
- [53:19]
Rob Marsh
So can I, while we only have a few more minutes, I'm actually really curious about your writing process. So as I've gone through a couple of your books, it feels to me like you're a bit of a collector. You're always collecting quotes and ideas, and then somehow they all come together as a book when you're ready to sit down and write. We just talk about how you approach a project like that or do like, how do the ideas for books occur to you? And then you go about making them happen.
- [53:49]
Sam Horn
Okay, well, there are two questions there. One about how do books occur to me, et cetera, is that we've all heard, pick a lane, right? We understand that, you know, riches are in the niches, et cetera, and I understand that. I just have elected not to do that. You know what? Because I, quite frankly, I like being more of a Renaissance creative, you know, So I write about Tung Fu. I write about what's holding you back, about concentrate, about take the bully by the horns, about talking on eggshells, pop, et cetera, because. And I have elected to move on and explore topics that I think are tangibly useful to us as human beings. When I write about them, they're not saturated. I don't read other people's books on my topic because I don't want to wake up at 3am with a great idea. It's not my idea. It's Stephen Covey's idea, right? So this is organic process. So once I come up with the topic that's congruent, it lights me up. I feel it's not saturated. I think that it will add value than I do. Mary Oliver, My Life. I really like street interviews, Rob. I talk with Almost all my Uber drivers, you know, and I talk with people and I ask questions. In fact, I have a 10W quiz when I'm gonna do a deep dive into a topic, you know, so let me ask, let me do it for you again. Are you working on a book right now, A new book?
- [55:12]
Rob Marsh
Oh, I've always got like five or six ideas for books, so yeah, so of course I'm always working on something.
- [55:20]
Sam Horn
Okay, so like, what's one of the working titles or topics of your, of your books?
- [55:24]
Rob Marsh
Let me give you the title that I've recently outlined. So I want to help writers build their authority because again, it's really hard, you know, when there's a million copywriters out there, it's hard to not just capture attention, but to get people to trust you if you don't have some kind of authority attached here to your name or business. Business.
- [55:46]
Sam Horn
Excellent. Okay, so this is our topic is a trusted rider authority. Right. Developing ways, you know, a ten week way, ten step, seven step way, whatever, to establishing your trusted writer authority. All right, so now if we were going to do the 10W quiz that you do everywhere you go, and you're thinking, well, this waitress isn't a writer. Oh, but she could have a wonderful insight, right?
- [56:11]
Rob Marsh
Sure.
- [56:12]
Sam Horn
So the first question is always, what is the definition of this? Because you could interview 10 people and they're going to give you 10 different answers for what it means to have trusted writer authority, right?
- [56:23]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, for sure.
- [56:25]
Sam Horn
That's number one. So we have clarity around our terms and it may be very. You have yours. However, you honor other people's interpretations of it. So you're bringing them along from the get go and you're asking, right. All right, Number two is like, so who is a walking, talking role model of this, right? So let's go to your benchmark. Who do you think is exhibit A shining example of this?
- [56:52]
Rob Marsh
I mean, historically, probably the best is David Ogilvy, who is the one copywriter who's ever lived that was on nighttime television shows. Pretty much everybody knew who he was. Right.
- [57:07]
Sam Horn
You know, I love that because, see, you already started to unpack it. He did what I call he jumped the genre. Right. He wasn't just an ad guy, he was his brilliant business guy. He was a visionary. He was a thought leader, all that. Right. And a very elegant and classy guy too, Right?
- [57:22]
Rob Marsh
Yep, yep.
- [57:23]
Sam Horn
Okay, so see, you already have in your mind what it took and what your values are. Do you see how one question is like a little Rorschach test? Right. It's like, okay, I want to jump the genre. I want to be elegant, classy guy. I want to be a thought leader in my space. Right? So do you see one question? Who is a benchmark? Whose exhibit a poster child of? This just reveals so much. Now question three. Who is not a role model of this? Who is the opposite of that? Now, who might that be?
- [57:55]
Rob Marsh
So this is a starving writer who's operating at a content farm. They're working for pennies per word or even less. They're struggling because, you know, people don't know who they are. So even if they do reach out to people, they get ignored because they're not familiar.
- [58:15]
Sam Horn
See, do you see? You hear your copywriting itself, don't you?
- [58:19]
Rob Marsh
For sure, yeah. I mean, I have thought. I've thought quite a bit about, you know, what needs to go into the book. So some of those answers are maybe coming a little easier for me than somebody who might be thinking through a different idea at the moment. But I totally get how this process leads you to an outcome.
- [58:35]
Sam Horn
And look, content and context, right? Because we're not just coming up with benchmarks who you can reference throughout the book with attribution. You know, by honoring them, you are context. You once again, coming up with values of all the people you could have picked. Here's the criteria. Ingredients that are meaningful to you. Now we go to who does not do this? Now the copy is. Once again, we go back to the, you know, are you working at a content farm? Are you getting pennies on the whatever. Do you struggle to make your copy, you know, land a deal or something? So see, you're. Now the next question is, when? When is a time. Did you have trusted rider authority put me in the scene where you think, yep, that's what that looks like.
- [59:24]
Rob Marsh
So me specifically, as the author of this book.
- [59:27]
Sam Horn
Yeah, because we're working on your book.
- [59:28]
Rob Marsh
Okay. So that probably happened in 2018 when we launched our first ever event, invited about 18 other copywriters to come join us on stage. And because we're there, several of whom were a list copywriters, literally, you know, making hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe even more. And because we're there on the stage with them, everybody in the audience is saying, we recognize you as, you know, part of this illustrious group, as the.
- [60:05]
Sam Horn
Curator of the group, the organizer of the group. Right. So it's definitely, as you said, it's not just status that you're one of them. You're actually the convener of them. Right, right. You know, so See, by the way, that goes in your book too. Right. Because if you're talking about establishing trusted. Right. Or authority, and you reference an event where you convened the authorities, boom, that's instant authority for you. Right. As a thought leader in the space, someone respected, et cetera. Now, next question. When is a time you didn't?
- [60:41]
Rob Marsh
I mean, there are a lot of examples of that, but when I have felt frustrated, you know, reaching out, cold pitching clients or cold pitching prospects, not clients, because they weren't becoming clients, you know, worried that I was, you know, going to run out of money before, you know, somebody said yes, those kinds of experiences. And yeah, that's happened, you know, various times in my career.
- [61:08]
Sam Horn
And now, see, as you know, for writing to resonate these days, we need to be relatable. And that often means being vulnerable. Right. It's not just all our success stories. And then I did this. And then I did this. It's like, well, in that time, I didn't get that contract. I was counting on that time. I walked out of the room and I knew the answer was going to be no. Right, Right. So we can share honestly the times that it did not work out. And then we reverse engineer it. And I realized, you know what, I did most of the talking. And my mom used to say, whoever does the most talking has the most fun, you know, and my goal in a pitch is that they do 70% of the talking, you know, and I do 30. 30%. And I did something like that. Right.
- [61:52]
Rob Marsh
Okay.
- [61:53]
Sam Horn
So it pulls out a real life story. We're vulnerable and relatable and honest and true and accessible. Not just the expert. We're accessible people now feel okay. Right. If you're going to go first, then I'm going to do it too. You just gave me permission to be honest instead of perfect. Right?
- [62:11]
Rob Marsh
Yeah.
- [62:12]
Sam Horn
So next question is why? Why is it important for us to be a trusted rider authority?
- [62:18]
Rob Marsh
Well, it leads to better clients, higher paying projects and more opportunities so that we can have, you know, the things that we want in our lives, whatever that looks like. You know, more time with family, more time to travel, you know, what, again, to reach our goals.
- [62:35]
Sam Horn
Yeah. So I'm sure that you codify that. Right. So here are all the benefits, here are all the advantages, here are all the bottom line roi. And now guess what the next question is.
- [62:49]
Rob Marsh
I'm not sure that I can. Is it going to be something around, you know, how do you get there?
- [62:54]
Sam Horn
Almost it's. Well, then why don't we do that if we know it's a career maker. If we know it's what people want, if we know that it's important, then why aren't we doing it? So now just speculate. If people go, I know it's important, but. Right. I can't do it because I don't have an mba. I can't do it because I. Whatever. What would be three or four of the reasons that are there barriers to entry?
- [63:22]
Rob Marsh
Number one is always going to be confidence. You know, I don't believe that I can do it. I've never done this before. Another one would be I don't have the connections or the network that successful people do. A third one might be, I'm not sure that I know enough about, you know, the thing that I'm doing. So because I'm talking to copywriters, content writers, you know, I'm not sure that I know enough about copywriting to be able to lead and say I can get this done for my clients. And closely related to that, even if they have done it, maybe they don't have. They don't feel like they have the proof that they can deliver on the promises that they want to make.
- [63:59]
Sam Horn
So see, the book is writing itself again, isn't it? You can see a chapter which is the. Yeah, but chapter. Well, I know this makes sense. Well, I know this, but, but you know, and once again you codify that because it's like, you know, in my, you, you become a docent of your body of work. You say, well, in my 20 years of working with copywriters from all around the world, from countries like this and this and this, from, you know, multimillion dollar copywriters to people just getting started. Do you know what I've discovered? Right. Question two way conversation reveal, Right. Is that here are the seven most frequently given reasons that are barriers to entry that people think it's not an option for them. And when you codify it, if you don't name it, you don't own it. Right? So if this is just in paragraph form, people do not perceive it's proprietary and they just. It will either skim or scan it or they'll run with it. If it's like you know your name, the seven reasons why people don't, whatever, at least scrupulous people will honor your name, that this is codified proprietary IP and they will reference you now. And it's positioning you as an expert. All because you're reporting back on your discoveries and your anecdotal data. Right?
- [65:17]
Rob Marsh
Yeah.
- [65:19]
Sam Horn
All right, then I bet you go to Conferences. And the first question is, so what's a challenge you're facing? And it's like there's something called the evolution of intimacy, folks. And if the first question is to tell us what's wrong with our life, that's like a breach to me. It's a breach of trust. It's a one down. I just put you down. My first question to you was, what's wrong with you in your life?
- [65:45]
Rob Marsh
Nobody likes starting with a failure.
- [65:48]
Sam Horn
Exactly. So see now even in this quiz, we honor that human understanding of honoring people and we say, so what's your best piece of advice? Right. What have you learned? If you're going to give advice to someone starting out in this career, you know, even if you've only been in it six months, what is something you've learned that's a non negotiable? So let's honor their intelligence and their expertise, right. And give them an opportunity to contribute. Your thoughts. I can see you, you're about to say something.
- [66:21]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, well, I'm wondering. So this isn't necessarily my thinking in the book, but I'm getting this from potential readers and then reflecting that book back inside the book. Correct.
- [66:31]
Sam Horn
And you just said something so important because once again, I don't read other people's books, right? So when I wrote Tung Fu, I didn't read all the books under the sun on conflict resolution. I interviewed moms, I interviewed lawyers, and I was doing so many public workshops at that point. So when people would come in, well, I agree with you, but you don't work for my boss, you know, and then they tell a story and then we talk about how we could turn around and many times they would get back in touch with the success or with what happened with their permission. I use those stories. So you are right. This isn't a way to generate original content through interviews where we're asking people for their best practices, their interpretations. And guess what? Now you look at your book book, it's not a one voice book. It's not one person sharing your recommendations or success stories. It's like, you know, it's a single mom of three kids, you know, it's the multimillion dollar CEO. And it makes the book more relatable, real and one of a kind. Because it's not a one voice book.
- [67:37]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, yeah, it makes a ton of sense. So is that all of the questions.
- [67:44]
Sam Horn
Number nine and number ten? What? You know that I'm going to do a workshop on this or I'm writing a book. What is something we could discuss in this book that would really be worthwhile. Right?
- [67:55]
Rob Marsh
Yeah.
- [67:56]
Sam Horn
And, Rob, you and I have been doing this for a while. It makes my day when someone says, well, you know what I'm dealing with. Or, you know, this happened. Yes. Someone was teasing me and they said, can't you take a joke? And it felt so wrong. And I just didn't know what to say, you know, so ask people what could we cover in this book that would make it, you know, worthwhile reading? And they'll give you the answers to the test, won't they? Right, right. And now once again, you're monitoring your answers. Maybe all the answers are about money, and maybe you're going to talk more about content or business stuff. But you realize seems what everyone cares about is money. So I better stack the deck and put that first. Right. Because if I think I'm going to talk about money in the last third of the book after this. No, no, they just told you that's not their priority. They won't wait for the last third of the book.
- [68:49]
Rob Marsh
Right, right, right.
- [68:51]
Sam Horn
Okay. And the final question, final question is, who do you recommend I interview on this?
- [68:56]
Rob Marsh
Okay.
- [68:57]
Sam Horn
And it's so wonderful, Rob, because, you know, people say, well, John Mackey, who is founder of Whole Foods, gave the COVID endorsement of my Talking on Eggshells book. So I had interviewed Mickey Agrawal for the book, and I said, who else do you think would be a great interview? And she said, well, John Mackey would be great. Well, I interviewed John and he ended up giving the COVID endorsement for the book. So, boy, is that a payoff.
- [69:26]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Amazing.
- [69:27]
Sam Horn
Done.
- [69:28]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. I mean, you've given me two workshops in this one interview, amazingly helpful for me, but also just seeing inside your process and the way you think, the way your. Your brain works. I know I've mentioned the book Pop a couple of times. I honestly think that copywriters, content writers, this should be on the shelf. Because when you are looking for ideas and how to stand out, just the tools that you give in the book, we're getting my mind thinking as I'm reading through the book. I'm hopping online, looking for cliches for ideas that might work with things that I'm thinking about. And so, like I said, we'll link to it in the show notes. But if somebody wants to follow you, Sam, or get in touch with you or even come and hear you speak someplace, where should they go so that they can get inside your world?
- [70:15]
Sam Horn
Well, first, I really hope that we connect on LinkedIn is that. But that's my life is my lab and often at least once or twice a week I'm on LinkedIn sharing something that just happened and a riff off of it or a technique. One of my clients just got back in touch and said, wow, look at how this works. So check me out on LinkedIn Sam Horn Intrigue Agency on LinkedIn and then on my website we've got our Clarity weekends where people come and do a deep dive into what they want clarity about or my Cochita or and I do love to speak for groups, so if they're saying wow, we should have her come in and speak to our group, reach out to me. It'd be wonderful to hear from you.
- [70:53]
Rob Marsh
Amazing. Thanks so much Sam for just sharing so much of your knowledge and your ideas and I'm really looking forward to sharing this with our audience.
- [71:02]
Sam Horn
Thank. It's a joy. Kudos to you for the work you do.
- [71:09]
Rob Marsh
Thanks to Sam Horn for walking through several of the techniques that she talks about in her book pop. I have links to her book in the show notes and highly recommend you pick up a copy if you want to get better at attracting and keeping attention. I'm especially grateful that she took real ideas and worked through them a bit. We talk a lot about ideas on this show, but actually working through them live shows a different level of application and helps you, the listener, see how to apply the insights that she shared on the show. Again, Sam's book does a lot of this and is worth putting on your shelf when it comes to getting attention. There are a couple of workshops inside the Copywriter Underground on creating hooks and writing great leads that will help you grab attention so you can move your prospects from where they are to where they need to be in order to buy the products and services that you write about. You can find those workshops and playbooks@thecopywriterclub.com TCU be sure to check out the links in the show notes to get Sam's book and connect with her online. That's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. If you like what you heard, please share it with someone you know or if you don't know any other writers or freelancers that you can share it with. And again, I find that really hard to believe. Visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review. I always appreciate it when you tell me what you think about the show. If you haven't left a review before today, now's the time. I promise. When you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends, your acquaintances, your co workers will all thank you, just as I thank you. And I will see you next week.