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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #449: Product Marketing, Research and Copy with Grace Baldwin
00:44:22
I covered a lot of ideas in this episode with copywriter Grace Baldwin. We talked about product marketing, building an agency, conducting research (including one research technique you've never heard before) and the importance of community in growing y...
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- [00:00]
Rob
Hidden inside this podcast are a couple of ideas that will take your research game to another level, and I promise at least one of these you've never heard before. This is the Copywriter Club podcast. I've interviewed close to 350 different copywriters and close to another hundred or so other experts on this podcast over the past eight years. And you would think think that by now I've heard just about everything that there is to learn or know about copywriting, research, persuasion, finding clients, and many of the other topics that we talk about every week. Often the topics that we cover are good reminders of things that I already know but maybe don't apply to my business the way that I should. Other times I hear ideas that I've implemented and what we talk about is a confirmation that what I'm doing in my business is helpful to my clients. And yet I am constantly surprised by new ideas, new ways to do old things, and new insights that guests share that have never occurred to me before. That happened as I was recording this episode of the podcast. My guest today is my friend Grace Baldwin. Grace is a copywriter with a background in strategy and product development. She's in the process of building her own design agency, and Grace is constantly leveled up as she's built her business, working with bigger clients, taking on bigger projects, and helping create more impact for the brands that she's worked on. While we were talking, she shared one way that she does brand voice research, something that I have never heard another copywriter do and something that has never actually occurred to me before either. And yet, it's the kind of idea that may help you as you conduct research for your clients, especially if they are in the early stages and don't yet have a lot of customers to interview or survey. After hearing that, I shared my favorite research technique for getting a founder to share the features, the benefits, and the other details about a product that's they've built in a way that helps me capture those ideas for my sales copy. If you want to hear either or both of these ideas, you're going to have to listen to the rest of this podcast. Before we do that though, since one of the topics that we're touching on in this podcast is research.
- [02:12]
Grace Baldwin
I want to share with you all.
- [02:14]
Rob
Of my research secrets, the 420plus research method that helps copywriters like you uncover the ideas and insights that you need to write great sales copy. I've shared them all, more than 20 different techniques for capturing ideas, plus all of the questions that I use to learn more about my clients, their product, their customers, their competitors, as well as the research documents that you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use AI to speed up your processes and even help with the research itself. You can learn more about this unique resource@the copywriterclub.com ResearchMastery Research mastery is all one word, so check it out. The copywriterclub.com forward/research. Research mastery. I'll link to that in the show notes so you can easily find the link if you can't type the URL into your Browser right now. Thecopywriterclub.com researchmastery and now my interview with Grace Baldwin.
- [03:18]
Grace Baldwin
Hey, Grace.
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Hi, Rob.
- [03:21]
I am so excited to have you here. Um, so let's, let's start with your story. I mean, you were in the think tank. We hung out so much together a few years ago, but it's been a little while. So catch me up and catch up our listeners. How did you get to be marketing Consultant, copywriter for B2B Tech Brands? Branding specialists. Like all these things that you're doing and now you're building an agency.
- [03:47]
Yeah. So, okay, the story, it starts kind of while I was still in school. So I kind of became a copywriter on accident like everybody or like I think most of the people that are on the show. Right. I never really imagined that this is kind of what life would look like. But as a, when I was in high school, I would always really had fun writing like flyers and, you know, I threw parties in my basement and I loved writing the invitations. And then around my senior year of college, I kind of realized, okay, wait, people will pay me to do this. Which was amazing. And then after school, I moved to Amsterdam and fell into the world of B2B technology. I started working in ed tech, then I went to E commerce tech and then finally ended up in like in a space tech company, which was really interesting. And that's kind of when I came into think tank was I was working at the space tech company. I knew I always wanted to be freelance and so really building the foundations through think tank while I was still there. And then since 2022, I've been out on my own and now I'm building a branding agency.
- [04:49]
So let's talk about that because, yeah, building an agency, I mean, on the one hand it's pretty easy to say, oh, yeah, I'm building an agency. On the other hand, there is so much work that goes into it. So, yeah, tell us about that.
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Yeah, I tried starting to build an agency last year and I kind of burned myself out on it because I, because I didn't have any of the processes or anything in place. And to be fair, it's still a fairly new thing this time around. But this time I have a co founder who has some experience with building agencies and managing people and so that's making a big difference. And we're working with, we're going to be working with a coach to help us avoid some of the big mistakes that I think I started to make last year when I was trying to do it by myself.
- [05:32]
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So who are you trying to serve and like, what is the vision for the agency? What does that look like?
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Yeah, so the vision for the agency right now is to be really working with innovative technology companies. So and when I say innovative, I mean kind of like deep innovation. So my background is in like space tech and in the energy industry as well. And we want to be working with companies that are supporting, we're calling it Planet Tech. Right. So in. Within agriculture, within space, within climate technology, just people that are making really interesting solutions that are kind of. I, what I like about B2B is like it's kind of the back doors of the world and I want to help them tell their stories.
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I love that and I love the idea of Planet Tech. Planet, you know, that's just a really unique way to talk about it.
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Yeah, we're kind of kicking around different names and everything right now, but that's what kind of what we keep coming back to.
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Okay, I want to come back to this, but I, I want to kind of jump back to. As you were getting started as a writer, obviously you had some in house experiences, but your goal was always to freelance and you were freelancing on the side. Tell us just how you launched that side of your business, you know, how you got started, how you found your first clients.
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So the first clients. So I, I discovered the copywriter club actually when I was still in school and I joined the free Facebook group then and listen, I binged every episode of this podcast and. Or maybe, maybe it wasn't when I was still in school, but it was in within the first year. And I kind of found my first clients through these Facebook groups and maybe not necessarily the copywriter club one, but through another writing Facebook group. And that's kind of how it all got started. And then for two and a half, three years, I was, I ended up working in house. But I always had this, I was very tapped into the copywriting club community in the backs, in the back of things. And continued trying to build up a brand while I was doing it, which then helped when I got laid off for sure.
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And as far as like reaching out to clients, were you pitching clients individually? Were you posting content and clients were finding you? Like, how did that all work?
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In the beginning it was pitching and just connecting with people on. Yeah. In these Facebook groups and just saying, hey, you know, I'm looking for work. Anything I can help out with. And then eventually, eventually when I got more serious about my business, I started posting content on LinkedIn and people were coming to me.
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Yeah, I've seen a lot of your content on LinkedIn. You seem to be pretty, pretty good at the whole LinkedIn game. I mean, spill your secrets on that as well.
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I don't really have any secrets. Whenever I. I've talked to Chris Collins about this too, but I say that the, one of the best things about my business and one of the worst things is that whenever I have an idea, I can put it on the Internet. And that's kind of how I write content.
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So I mean, anything occurs, you're just like, oh, it's Tuesday morning. You're not thinking, I've got to get a post up. It's just whenever an idea occurs to you, you. You share it.
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Yeah. Or whenever I see something that one of my clients is struggling with, and if I am able to see kind of a connective thread between what client A is struggling with and what client B is struggling with, I'll post about my thoughts on it. Not obviously naming my clients names, but just talking about the larger problem that I'm noticing or the different trends that I'm seeing across whatever's happening, the different conversations that I'm having.
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So I like that approach because it immediately suggests that you're the expert working on big problems. And I think when read it, they're like, oh, wait, I have that problem. As opposed to so much of the other content that's on LinkedIn, it's like, you know, well, I mean, all the listicle type stuff that's just. Has been out there and is over. But even a lot of the shared templates that we have for hooks and that kind of stuff just, I don't know, so much of LinkedIn just feels templatized and unuseful.
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Yeah. And I think that that's a trend I'm seeing, you know, online in general, in LinkedIn specifically, is that people want to hear your stories and your experience. It's very easy To. For anybody, to, especially with ChatGPT or with AI, to, you know, create a post that's like three messaging tips. But I think people want to hear more about what you did and what the lessons that you learned and how you applied them moving forward. And that's kind of what I've embodied.
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And do you take the same approach then, like, as you're thinking about your clients with your agency or for freelance or whatever? Are you ever helping them talk about that stuff too? Are you 100% in on branding?
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We're kind of 100% in on branding right now, but that might, you know, might evolve. But as part of the branding, what we're trying to do is give people give these companies a perspective on the world or like a point of view on the world. That's a big pillar of what we do. And then they can use that as a filter for whenever they're creating content.
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So let's talk about that process, because that's really interesting to me. I mean, again, so many of us work with our clients. We touch their brand. Sometimes we even help them develop their brand voice or, you know, give them input on their. The visuals that they're working on. But, I mean, it's a. It's a really involved process to get this right. So will you walk us through the process that you go through and so we can see kind of like how that all comes together?
- [10:50]
Yeah, definitely. So it kind of. It's a. It's evolving now that I'm working with a design partner. Um, but historically, what I have done in, like, I. When I was working in house, I discovered the world of product marketing. And I realized, okay, a lot of the foundations of conversion copywriting overlap with product marketing. And so, and that means really starting with, you know, the positioning of the business and understanding where they sit. Where this business sits in the product sits in the eyes of the consumer. Right? And what is unique about the product and what is the story about the product that we can tell rather than the story that we want or that we, you know, the client wants to tell? Because sometimes what the product does and what the client wants to tell the world are two different things. And, you know, if you want to sell the product, you have to find the angle that works for that product. So that's what we start with, that positioning. And from that, a message usually kind of develops. And we also create. The next step is like, personality and perspective. So we try and create a brand archetype and a point of view through which they can filter all of their business, making decisions through. And then only after all of the positioning, messaging, and then kind of messaging concept is done do we move into the brand. And that's where we take the message. Take these two couple different messaging ideas and combine them with the brand so it's a unified concept. Because what I have learned is that it's very easy for companies to do positioning, do messaging, and they're these kind of islands. And then brand comes in afterwards and tries to retrofit onto the strategy. But what we're trying to do is align strategy or bring brand into the strategy side of things.
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Okay. I want to go deeper on this if we can.
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Okay. Yeah. Because I'm rambling a little bit, but.
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Yeah, it's not even. It's not even rambling. It totally makes sense. But I think we're covering a lot of really deep ground really fast.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Can we. So it sounds like we can kind of break down the process into three major steps. One is front end research, and then there's some. Some strategy around identifying the archetype and what that strategy looks like moving forward. And then there's branding beyond that. Is that. Is that correct?
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Yeah. So that's a much better way of saying what I was trying to say. But what we do, we. We call it the brand stack, and we have the three. It is exactly three parts. It's. First is like positioning strategy, then it's personality, and then it's presentation. So the actual, you know, visuals and how it actually looks out in the world.
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Awesome. I like that. So let's talk a little bit about your research process then, because this is obviously where all of those ideas come from. What are you doing that helps you surface, you know, the unique things, help you identify things like voice, archetype, you know, the. The different things that become part of that brand.
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Yeah, that's a really good question. So a lot of my clients, you know, if I can talk to customers, that's amazing. Or if I can listen in on recordings with customers, that's amazing. But I have found with my clients, it's sometimes more useful to try and find. I'm a big fan of using podcasts for voice of customer research. And when I say podcasts, I mean like peer to peer podcasts for their target audience. And I like this because often I find that if you're interviewing a customer, they're gonna. Their natural tendency is to try and be helpful, and that is skewed, or that they'll provide a skewed perspective. But when you listen to A podcast that says some. That's all about, you know, how to be the best customer success manager of the year. You find out what their deeper values are and what they really are focused on in their work. And so that's kind of where I start in terms of desk research.
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That is a really good idea. I hadn't actually ever thought of that before, but, I mean, that feels like a game changer in some ways.
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So that really emerged A couple years ago. I was working with a client on a landing page, and I was doing research, and I didn't have access to their customers. So I started. It was around the end of the year, so I started listening to a couple of these podcasts, and I realized that what we were trying to put out into the world about this product wasn't actually matching what are what. In this case, it was like what a customer success manager's actual KPIs are and what they really cared about. And so we were able to tweak the messaging a bit to be way more powerful just because we were a fly on the wall rather than, you know, trying to have direct conversations with the client.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of like, thinking through how I could use that same idea in my own. With my own clients as well, because, again, I think it's kind of a game changer. So when you're doing that, what are the kinds of things that you're looking for or that you're pulling out? Is it just stuff that feels unfamiliar or, like, how do you. How do you identify the ideas? Like, oh, wait a second, that's something that I can build on.
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That's a good question, Norm. These just kind of intuitive, you know, like just actively listening and trying to see, okay, what is, you know, what is the pattern that's emerging? What is the thing that they keep bringing up? And it's. It's nice if I can find, like, two or three podcasts that are in the same realm and you can hear, okay, this. This idea is echoed across a couple different spaces, and that's where you're able to find something. But then from there, you take that research, plus whatever research you have from your internal workshops with the client, and then that's kind of. You start iterating on concepts from that.
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Okay. And then as you start to move into step two, how does the. How does your. Your process sort of evolve so that you're turning ideas and insights into strategy?
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Yeah. So what we do, we take. We try and approach it from a messaging concept perspective, which is something that I learned from, really from reading Breakthrough Advertising. Right. Which the whole, what we try and do is we look at the market sophistication, the customer stage of awareness, their mass desires, which is what we identified in the first stage along with the product capabilities. And then we create, we're trying to create two to three different concepts from there and each concept will have a slightly different flavor. And then we, at that point we also introduce the beginning of a design concept as well. Because what we want is that the brand's visual design matches the overall message and positioning. And then from the, the client then kind of picks from there and whatever concept they go with is how we start building out the personality.
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So I know I'm putting you on the spot here a little bit with this question, but can you give me an example of how that works?
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So we're doing this, we did this with a client recently where what we did, they're in the energy industry and so we kind of worked with them and we did some research in their early stage. So we didn't have time for a ton of research. They didn't have any customers or anything. But we presented a couple different options and said, okay, we can go basically in this direction with your brand or we can go in this direction with your brand. And the messaging is slightly different here because it might be, for example, you might have like more cool toned, like precise design. You might have more cool tone. Precise designs. And then your tone might also have changed slightly there or you could have something that's a bit warmer and a bit more of a, like a lover brand archetype. But we gave them two options and then they picked one and we went with it.
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That's. Yeah. And when it comes to the kinds of clients that you're working with, it seems like there's some real trade off opportunities for, you know, again, we're talking planet tech. So you know, you want people to like you or to see that you're doing good things for the planet, but at the same time you're tech. And so you, you've got a side of the brand that is scientific and functional and delivers results. Right. And so there's. It'd be interesting to balance the two.
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Exactly. And a lot of clients that we talk to don't, they don't want to scream necessarily that they're eco friendly. Right. I mean that's not their main purpose. You also want to be able to avoid greenwashing if that's not the main driver. A lot of times I've Worked on products where the main driver and the main value of the product is not about reducing carbon emissions. It's about helping the team operate more efficiently, which is then a business outcome rather than, like a climate outcome.
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Yeah, yeah. And obviously, if you're showing up and accused of greenwashing, that can hurt your brand. And so you want to be authentic.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And then tell me about the last stage, which is really design and copy. How does that all come together?
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Yeah. So from that point, it's mostly just a matter of refinement. Once we kind of pick a direction. My design partner, he goes and he, you know, works his. He's like the creative genius, and so he works magic on that. And then I will create the brand voice guide, and we bounce each. One of the nice things about having a co founder is that we can bounce the ideas off of each other and make sure that it's all aligned. And then we put it together in a final presentation, and then from there, we can work with the client on web copy and any other assets.
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Yeah. Okay. So I love this process, and right now, the agency is just you and your partner. But, like, what is the vision as far as the team goes?
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That's a really good question. You know, we'd like to keep it pretty small, but we're still kind of in the early stages of defining what we want the vision to look like. Okay, but we both want it to be something that feels easy and fun.
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Yeah, believe me, I get it.
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Yeah.
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Exactly the kind of business that I want, too. So what has copywriting taught you about building brands and branding?
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That's a really good question. I think the answer is everything. I think that, you know, and admittedly, I'm biased. Right. Like, as you know, I've worked for nine, 10 years as a copywriter, and I really think that copy is the foundation. And I think that what it's taught me is that copy needs to be involved earlier on in the process. I think that often copywriting and it specifically tone of voice gets kind of added on afterwards. But really, copy is how you shape your messaging. It's how you shape the presentation to the world. It's how you shape your. You know, you have to come up with slogans and headlines and things like that, and it should be leading. It's. It's strategy incarnate, and it should be leading kind of the crusade.
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Yeah, I agree 100%. I mean, I think a lot of copywriters see it this way. Sometimes designers don't see it this way. And so it's interesting, you know, when you've got a design partner, really the real answer is that both design and copy should be in the meeting from the beginning.
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Absolutely. Yeah.
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And that strategy impacts both copy and design, although it tends to show up in the copy more obviously, at least to me.
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Yeah, yeah. We're biased that. You know, I mean, if we had my designer on the phone, he might be like. He might have something different to say, but we should call him. But. But no, I agree. I think that, like, I have a massive respect for design, and I think that that's why we work very well together. He also has a huge respect for copy, and we both think about it strategically, and that's why we've moved towards this kind of concepting idea of presenting the ideas together and then so that our clients can sort of see how they work together.
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Yeah, I like that. I've been. And I've seen so many situations where design and copy, it's not that they're necessarily at cross purposes, but because one, you know, person is. Is advocating for the importance of copy and the other is advocating for the importance of design. You end up with, you know, a designer saying, well, the copy's got to fit in this space or. Or the copywriter demanding that there's got to be, you know, additional space for, you know, storytelling. And it just can create conflict in ways that are detrimental to finishing a project.
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Totally. Yeah. And I've just learned that it's all about compromise, and I've been blessed to work with amazing designers when I was in house and, you know, just throughout my career. And the great ones see you as a teammate.
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Yeah. So I asked about copywriting, teaching you about brand, but you've also got, like, a massive amount of experience on the. On the product side and on product development. So how does that impact what we do with brands?
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Yeah, I think that kind of. I said, what I think product marketing has taught me is that branding really needs to be around the product. Right. And I think that too often there's a disconnect between what the brand is saying and what a product actually does. And so it's the same thing. Like Pro, your. Your product team also needs to be involved in the branding process because they are understanding, you know, they're shaping what it actually is, and they know the technical details about it, and they're able to give insights that other people on the team can't. Or, like, a commercial team can't.
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Yeah. And. And, like, have you brought some of that into your process as well? Again, because that's. Your brain is in that process. You've done it so much. How does that show up in. In the process that you do as you develop, copy and design together?
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Yeah. So one of the things we really do is we try and always start with a product demo. And for my clients, you know, I'm working with. On client. Working on projects with clients who are truly experts in a very specific thing. Right. And there's no way that I can match that. But so what I tell my clients and our process in general is that it's very collaborative and I can help with the strategy and I can help with the words, but I really need their help with all the nuance.
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I like that. One of my secrets for your Ready sales pages, I like to start with a product demo also because to me, if you have the person who build the thing try to sell it to you, they're talking through what they think are the most important points, features, benefits, whatever it is. Now, they're not always their best, their own best customer, but like that as a starting point, so you understand, you know, what the founder, the developer, whatever, like, this is the thing that I built for the thing that it solves is immensely helpful.
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Absolutely. And it helps with products. You know, if you're talking to somebody that. Or if your audience is very technical, they want to know all the technical details. It's important to get that insight from, you know, the person developing it. But it's also important to get the sales pitch from sales and sort of see where there's overlap. But yeah, having those technical details and the stories behind, behind specific features, that's where you can. Those are opportunities for differentiation.
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Yeah. One of the things that, you know, as we're chatting, I realized, like, obviously you're doing way more than writing copy. Your leading strategy. And there may be a lot of people who are listening, thinking, okay, how do I go from the person who's asked to develop, you know, a couple of emails or to write a blog post or a sales page to the point where I'm actually advising my clients on what to do. How did you jump from copywriter to strategist?
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That's. I think my honest answer is that I. I mean, working in house for several years was really, really helpful in that because I got to understand how, how. And I worked in house at startups. Right. So, I mean, I were. I was on a marketing team of maybe three people. I was the only writer. And so I was doing all of the writing. And I think understanding kind of how My clients, businesses, operate helps. Helps a lot. But then I also think that just time and, like, really digging into the principles of conversion copywriting has helped me be able to leverage strategy so much more.
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So do you think it takes time then? Like, does it. Is there a shortcut to learning strategy or to being a strategist?
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I think just doing it, you know, over and over. You learn every time that you do something new. And I'm continuing to learn. Right. But yeah, this is. I do think that experience helps. Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean, that's probably an obvious question because I was thinking the same thing as you're answering that. I'm like, I was just working with a copywriter or marketer who's building her business and, you know, is talking about the things that she wants to help do. And the. Her biggest problem is that she hasn't actually done a lot of this stuff, you know, at this point. And we see this a lot where.
- [26:53]
Rob
People try to step into a role.
- [26:55]
Grace Baldwin
That they haven't actually had any success in, but they've read about it or they've learned how to write a prompt for AI to tell them what to do, and the outcomes are just not the same.
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Totally. And in that case, you know, if you're freelance, too. Something that I learned from Annie Beacher actually, is to just subcontract for other copywriters that are where you want to be. Right. And that's something that I subcontracted for Annie. I've subcontracted for Aaron Pennings. I've subcontracted for several people. And I did it because at the, you know, at the time, I didn't have time to manage my own clients. And I was also just kind of burnt out. But I also learned a ton from their processes as well. Also, subcontracting for agencies helps me understand. Help me understand and get that experience. Because agencies are just doing it so frequently.
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Yeah. I think a large part of mastering anything, obviously, is. Is the doing. And I love that approach. Working with a variety of other copywriters who are a couple steps ahead of you, who can offer coaching. You can see their processes, you can learn from them. And agencies, like you said, makes it's. It's almost understating it to say, oh, that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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Because it's almost like, no, this is the path. This is actually how you get great.
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It's really easy to say, but then, I mean, you have to actually do it, which takes. I mean, I'm in year. Year three of doing my business full time, and I'm Only now just kind of getting to the point where I, like, am able to put all the puzzle pieces together. But, yeah, it just takes it. If I could go back and tell myself, you know, give myself advice, it would be just relax and enjoy the journey.
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And so when you talk about subcontract for copywriters, one of the things that makes that happen is that you were able to build relationships with copywriters, other copywriters. How did you do that?
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Think tank. Think tank? The copywriting club. I mean, I. I'm in a slack group now with like eight, seven other people that I met through the copywriter club, and I talk to them daily. I commute. I cannot emphasize how important community has been to me over the. Yeah. Over this journey.
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This. This is one of the things that I've come to really late in my career. That is one of those no duhs. But I tried for so long to be the solitary copywriter. You know, I can do it. I can find my clients, I can do the work. And when I got into my first Mastermind, surrounded by other copywriters as well. I've mentioned the story on the podcast in the past, but I just remember in that first meeting kind of having an aha moment where I was like, wait a second. I have so much to learn from. From these other people in the room. Like, I thought I was good, I was good. But when I could see their advantages.
- [29:37]
Rob
What they were doing differently from what.
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Grace Baldwin
I was, it was. I mean, it was like I turned the dial from, you know, three, where I was playing around, to like nine or 10.
- [29:45]
Totally. And I am just leaving a mastermind right now, actually, where I, you know, I joined it wanting to be the dumbest person in the room, which is the same thing that happened when I joined Think Tank. I really wanted to be, you know, the youngest person or, like, the least experienced there. But with both of these experiences, I saw where other people were operating at, and I knew that there was a path to get there, and it was just eye opening. And then you also. You just meet people and you can. Who can empathize with your daily struggles.
- [30:15]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it was a total game changer for me as well.
- [30:19]
Yeah.
- [30:20]
So tell me about some of the things that maybe you do outside of work that actually influence the way you think about business or make you a better writer.
- [30:32]
Well, I. I run a lot. I just signed up for my first ultramarathon last night, actually, so that'll be happening in October. But yeah, yeah, running and endurance sports is something that. I never did that as a kid. I only got into it. I got into it in, like, 2018 and fell in love with it. But it's just taught me a lot about, like, slowing down and pacing myself and not burning myself out.
- [31:00]
So. I also have taken up running the last few years. I used to think of myself as a cyclist, but getting my bike out and, you know, pumping the tires full of air and putting on the kit and road. Biking has become a lot more dangerous with cars that, you know, don't seem to be looking for bikes. So I've run a lot more. I don't know that I call myself a runner. I'm more of a plotter, maybe a jogger, whatever. But I can't even envision running an ultramarathon. Like, that is so beyond me either, Rob.
- [31:29]
That's. I'm nervous about it.
- [31:32]
Yeah. That seems. That's. I. Back in my biking days, like, I could knock off a hundred miles, you know, in a day or whatever. That was no big deal. But an ultramarathon is a whole other kind of torture.
- [31:43]
But it's the same thing that we were talking about, right? Like, when you're just getting started or think, there's no way I can. I mean, I remember I had some friends who ran a half marathon when I was. I think we were 19. And I remember thinking, I will never do that. And then, you know, here I am now, getting ready to run an ultra marathon. It's just something that's slow and you get better at over time, and you slowly improve and your endurance grows, and it just gets easier. Or it doesn't get easier, but you get better at it.
- [32:13]
Yeah, I actually saw somebody mention that yesterday. It's like hard things. Hard things don't get easier, but your strength increases, your ability to do hard things increases.
- [32:22]
Yeah, totally.
- [32:23]
So maybe marathons is a good. Or races, whatever, is maybe a good place to start developing some of those discipline skills that we need to succeed.
- [32:34]
As copywriters a hundred percent. For me, at least, it has been an amazing way to learn all. Learn all those lessons in, like, a safe container. Right. And learn to trust myself and also be able to tell the difference between when something is tough but manageable but. Or tough but unmanageable.
- [32:53]
Let's talk a little bit about working out of the States, being a. Being an expat copywriter.
- [33:00]
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:01]
Yeah. Obviously, there's some challenges with that. How have you made it work?
- [33:07]
Well, challenges is kind of an understatement. There's a lot. You know, I can tell. I moved abroad before my prefrontal cortex developed because I didn't never considered international retirement planning, which is a whole minefield of regulations. But we won't. We don't need to get into that.
- [33:23]
Maybe we should get into that.
- [33:25]
Yeah.
- [33:25]
I don't know.
- [33:26]
My advice for anybody if who wants to move abroad, or at least out of the US is find a good tax attorney to talk to before you do it. But beyond, beyond that, I mean, it's. I just, I moved here for love. I'm still with my boyfriend and just. Yeah, it's been an amazing adventure.
- [33:46]
Yeah. I mean, again, I've talked about this on the podcast in the past as well, but I am all in on travel. My wife and I, we kind of have a motto, you know, experiences over things. Experiences are better than things. And so every chance we get, it's like, hey, let's hop on an airplane, you know, who cares about the new car or whatever? Let's do that. And so part of me is jealous that you get to have this full time experience in Amsterdam that, you know, so many of us and when we travel for vacations, you know, it's a totally different experience as well because you're trying to hit the three or four highlights, you're always in a hurry, you're standing in lines. And when you can actually do it slow, you know, actually experience the culture and the way that you are, I'm. I'm so insanely jealous of your experience there.
- [34:32]
Yeah. But then at a certain point, it just becomes kind of normal every day. Although as an, you know, I call myself more of an immigrant than an expat, but I still discover new things about the country on a weekly basis, especially if I, like, I was at a family reunion for my boyfriend's family and I was around a bunch of more Dutch people than I normally am around. And I learned, I don't know, there's just all these like small little things that you never will learn unless you're actually surrounded by that culture.
- [35:02]
Yeah. When we were living in France, as I'm saying this, I'm like, nobody wants to hear Rob talk.
- [35:09]
I want to hear this. I didn't know this. Yeah.
- [35:11]
When we were living in France, I realized how different FedEx is in, in France than it is in the States. You know when you would order something from FedEx? Well, here it shows, you know, sometimes, like, place the order by 4:00 in the afternoon. It'll be there by 7:00am right in France, you know, you had. We at least had to go to the shop to pick it up. And oftentimes the shop was closed because. Yeah. They just decided to take it off.
- [35:34]
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:34]
Like. Like the immediacy of American culture is just not a thing and nobody cares, you know, and so sometimes it would take us two or three visits to the place where our package would be delivered just to get it. So those kinds of culture differences, I mean, they're kind of funny to talk about, but also when you experience them, it's in some ways, like when you're talking about being in a community of copywriters, it opens your minds to just different things, different ways that people do things. And in some ways it's like a creative playground that just gets you thinking in different ways.
- [36:09]
Absolutely. And I think, you know, something that I related when I. My first job was, you know, in a Dutch company and I had a Dutch manager. And my. My manager was Dutch. It was me. And then our designer was Canadian, and there we were working on a website project. And my design, my designer, who's a very dear friend of mine now, we were stressed out about getting it done on time because, I mean, we were very deadline driven. And my. And it caused. It caused tension in the group. And my manager said to us, guys, like, we can always move a deadline. Which was something that she and I were not. We're not. There was a concept we were not familiar with. Right. Because we had grown up in these cultures of, okay, there's a deadline, we have to hit it. And one of the things that I like about Dutch culture, in which I have tried to embrace in my work life, is that Dutch people believe that you have eight hours to work and that's it. And if you're working beyond eight hours is a sign that you weren't efficient with the time that you have, rather than a symbol that you're going over above and beyond. Which is something I really appreciate.
- [37:11]
Yeah. It's something I probably should adopt into my life when I'm sitting at my desk, you know, seven o' clock at night, trying to finish something up.
- [37:18]
I mean, it's 6:30 in the afternoon for me or in the evening right now for me. So I'm totally guilty of overworking as well. But it was nice when I was. There were more boundaries when I was in house and like salaried.
- [37:29]
How much. How much does fun play into that kind of thinking as well? Because oftentimes what I will find is if I am still at my desk at 6:30 or 7. It's because I'm actually enjoying the work and not because it's a deadline I've got to hit tomorrow. Is that like, part of the consideration as well? Or is it just like, nope, you've got your seven and a half, eight hours and then you're done?
- [37:50]
I think it's a consideration, you know, I mean, if you're having fun with something, nobody's going to say no, but. But I have found that managers will reprimand you for working overtime. Even if you are having fun. They'll say, okay, well, go, you know, take a half day off then if you were working on this on Saturday.
- [38:07]
So, yeah. So for those of us who manage ourselves, then we just need to be better managers. Give our. Give ourselves.
- [38:12]
It's always the hardest part, though, right? Yeah. I'm a very bad manager of myself, or not a bad. Not a very bad one, but I'm always learning to be a bit kinder.
- [38:24]
Yeah. So what are the biggest things that you've struggled with as you've gone from moving over, taking that first job, product management, copywriting, now launching your agency? What have been the biggest challenges that you face now?
- [38:40]
You mean right now or through the process?
- [38:43]
Yeah, through the process.
- [38:46]
I think a big. I mean, moving abroad, there's always a kind of a sense of loneliness that you have to cont. You have to contend with. Because, I mean, is your. You're very obvious. The minute I open. Even though I speak Dutch, the minute I open my mouth, people know that I'm not Dutch, which is a bit isolating at times. So that's all about, like, you know, I've been. I joined, run clubs. I'm trying building more community here. And so that's. That has something that has been a struggle. And that's also, you know, in terms of business building those. Realizing that's just a big theme for me is that, okay, it's about finding the right people who can support you. So that's. That's been a challenge and a learning lesson. But also, yeah, lots of freedom and room to play and explore and try out new things. So there's upsides as well.
- [39:37]
There's definitely a part of me that's very jealous of the business that you've built. It sounds like a ton of fun. The projects that you get to work on are game changers. So, yeah, just listening to you talk about what you've built since the last time we hung out together, which was five years ago, it's amazing to see how far you've Come.
- [39:56]
Yeah. Thanks. Sometimes it feels like I haven't made it that far, but then if I look back where I was five years ago when I first joined Think Tank, it's a world of a difference.
- [40:06]
So as you think about your business now, what's next for you? What are the big challenges that you have coming up or the things you're most excited about?
- [40:15]
Yeah, so I'm definitely excited about building out this agency and building it up and turning it into something recognizable and that, you know, my co founder and I, we really just want to focus on doing great work and delivering awesome results. And I'm just excited about leaning into that and, yeah, exploring leveling up in a new way.
- [40:35]
So for those of us who want to watch what you're doing and hear about, you know, the successes as you move forward, where should we go? Or what should we, you know, where should we be looking for your latest writings?
- [40:48]
So LinkedIn is one place. I also have a substack where I'm trying to just kind of document what I'm learning. It's not, I call it a semi regular missive because I don't promise to put it out every week, but I'm trying to do every other week, minimum. But those are probably the two places.
- [41:06]
And I've seen some of what you've put on substack, documenting what you're learning, a lot of the process that you're going through. So I highly recommend hopping on Grace's newsletter, checking out what she has to say, because I promise you're going to be inspired.
- [41:21]
Thank you. Those are big words.
- [41:23]
Yeah, well, and it's been awesome catching back up with you, Grace, and seeing what you're up to in your business. So thanks for taking the time to talk to me.
- [41:32]
Thank you for having me on, Rob. I mean, I was telling my business partner that it's such an honor to be on this podcast because I hope you recognize how big of an impact you have had on people's careers. And with the copywriter club, I mean, I'm just one example. And I'm really grateful for the work that you do.
- [41:49]
You are so kind to say that. I really appreciate it. I may just have to take that clip out and play it for me every morning.
- [41:58]
Make it your alarm to wake you up to every morning.
- [42:00]
Exactly.
- [42:01]
You have to listen to me every day.
- [42:02]
Well, you know, people have been listening to me rabble on for so many years, so it's only fair.
- [42:07]
It's only, you know what? Only fair. I guess then.
- [42:10]
Yeah. Thanks, Grace. Thanks Grace for sharing the details of.
- [42:20]
Rob
Your career journey and what you're building.
- [42:22]
Grace Baldwin
At your agency today, I want to.
- [42:24]
Rob
Echo what Grace said about finding a company community of copywriters who can help you on your own career journey. I've told my story several times, but it bears repeating the lesson that I learned from it, and that is that surrounding myself with several other good copywriters who were willing to read my work to share leads and clients, and even just to talk about what's working in their business right now was a complete game changer for me personally, and I've seen it have the same effect in hundreds of other copywriters businesses too. If you are missing that in your business, you should check out the copywriter underground@thecopywriterclub.com TCU where we are focusing on creating more opportunities for copywriters to come together and share these kinds of business Changing Ideas Coming back to our interview, I've linked to Grace's newsletter in case you want to follow her journey as she builds her agency and shares what she's learned as a copywriter. You should also check out Grace on LinkedIn where she shares other ideas that she's working on with her clients. And finally, I mentioned at the top of this show our course Research Mastery, which will give you the ideas and insights that you need to write better copy, get more impressive results, and increase sales and conversions that will keep your clients coming back to you for more.
- [43:32]
Grace Baldwin
Of what you do for them.
- [43:34]
Rob
You can learn more about this course@thecopywriterclub.com ResearchMastery Research mastery, again is all one word.
- [43:41]
Grace Baldwin
That's the end of this episode of.
- [43:43]
Rob
The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know. Simply copy the link from Spotify or Apple Podcasts, drop it into a short email and let your friend know that you were thinking of them as you were listening to the Copywriter Club podcast.
- [43:57]
Grace Baldwin
Or you can just leave a review.
- [43:58]
Rob
When you log into Spotify or Apple Podcasts and let me know what you think about the show. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club Podcast, your friends will thank you. I'll see you next week.
- [44:22]
Narrator
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