TCC Podcast #458: Write Your Book with Lacy Lieffers

Summary

The Copywriter Club Podcast #458: Write Your Book with Lacy Leifers

Release Date: July 29, 2025
Host: Rob Marsh
Guest: Lacy Leifers, Author and Book Marketer

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Introduction

In episode #458 of The Copywriter Club Podcast, host Rob Marsh teams up with author and book marketer Lacy Leifers to delve into the intricacies of writing and marketing a book. This discussion is tailored for copywriters and business professionals aiming to author books that not only reflect their current work but also effectively attract and engage their target audiences.

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Meet Lacy Leifers

Timestamp: [03:01]

Lacy Leifers introduces herself as an "author encourager" with a background in marketing. Transitioning from corporate marketing to full-time book marketing over five years ago, Lacy emphasizes her passion for assisting writers at every stage—from organizing ideas to executing effective marketing strategies. She brings a wealth of experience in helping authors craft and promote best-selling books.

Notable Quote:

"I've seen there was such a big need in this space for coaching around the marketing, the promotion, the building your book with your audience in mind." — Lacy Leifers [04:30]

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Choosing the Right Genre and Pen Names

Timestamps: [07:38] - [15:24]

Lacy discusses the versatility of authors who write across multiple genres, such as business, fantasy, romance, and sci-fi. She highlights the strategic use of pen names to cater to different audiences without diluting one’s main brand. Balancing multiple genres under a single name requires clear branding to ensure each segment is distinct yet cohesive.

Key Points:

• Flexibility in Genres: Writing multiple genres can prevent creative burnout and provide diversity.
• Pen Names Strategy: Using different pen names can help manage distinct genres, though it may require more effort in branding and marketing.
• Brand Clarity: Whether using one name or multiple, clear communication about each segment of your writing is crucial.

Notable Quote:

"You want to think about what is your overall brand and umbrella. And I think one of the earlier decisions you're going to have to make is do you want to put everything under your one singular name or are you going to want to start incorporating pen names?" — Lacy Leifers [14:10]

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Structuring Your Book

Timestamps: [16:02] - [32:56]

Lacy outlines a robust framework for structuring a book, especially for nonfiction. She recommends starting with existing content, such as blogs, podcasts, and client resources, to streamline the writing process. Breaking down the book into core pillars and subpoints ensures comprehensive coverage of the topic without overwhelming the content.

Key Points:

• Leverage Existing Content: Utilize blogs, podcasts, and other resources to compile book content.
• Core Pillars and Subpoints: Develop a structure based on primary topics and their subtopics to maintain focus and depth.
• Chapter Flexibility: Allow the number of chapters to grow organically based on content needs rather than adhering strictly to a predetermined number.

Notable Quotes:

"If you're wanting to create the bare bones structure of your book, it's about breaking down your main points into subpoints and further expanding them." — Lacy Leifers [26:43]
"The content should dictate the number of chapters. There's no strict rule, but clarity and value to the reader are paramount." — Lacy Leifers [27:15]

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Overcoming Writing Obstacles

Timestamps: [32:56] - [43:59]

Addressing common challenges such as time constraints and creative resistance, Lacy emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries and treating the book-writing process as another client-facing project. She advocates for realistic goal-setting and leveraging tools like AI to streamline writing and organization.

Key Points:

• Time Management: Allocate specific time blocks for writing, treating it with the same priority as client work.
• Use of Technology: Utilize AI tools for drafting, organizing, and maintaining writing schedules.
• Balanced Focus: Ensure the writing process complements rather than disrupts existing business operations.

Notable Quote:

"Treat the writing process like another client. Set boundaries and uphold them to ensure consistent progress." — Lacy Leifers [33:43]

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Speaking vs. Writing Your Book

Timestamps: [37:58] - [41:48]

The conversation explores the effectiveness of "speaking your book" versus traditional writing. While voice-to-text can expedite the drafting process, Lacy warns of the additional work required to transform spoken content into coherent, readable text that aligns with audience expectations.

Key Points:

• Efficiency of Speaking: For some, speaking can be faster and more natural for idea generation.
• Quality Control: Spoken drafts often require significant editing to ensure clarity and readability.
• Reader vs. Listener: Written content must cater to how readers consume information differently than listeners.

Notable Quote:

"The way we read is different than the way we listen. You have to make sure the book reads specifically to the readers so that the value actually comes across." — Lacy Leifers [38:14]

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Using Your Book as a Business Tool

Timestamps: [43:59] - [54:20]

Lacy highlights the multifaceted benefits of writing a book for business growth, including building trust, establishing expertise, and creating tangible connections with clients. A well-crafted book serves as social proof and a powerful lead generation tool, enhancing one’s authority in their field.

Key Points:

• Trust and Expertise: A book solidifies your authority and expertise, making you a go-to resource in your industry.
• Lead Generation: Use the book to attract and nurture leads through strategic promotion.
• Tangible Connection: Providing a physical or digital book offers a sense of connection and reliability to your audience.

Notable Quote:

"A book is like a larger physical version or digital version of your business card. It's just such a better way." — Lacy Leifers [49:00]

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Promoting and Leveraging Your Book

Timestamps: [54:20] - [60:31]

Effective promotion strategies are essential to ensure your book reaches the intended audience. Lacy advises leveraging existing networks, securing speaking engagements, utilizing social media, and cross-promoting across all business assets. Additionally, she discusses the potential of crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter and securing sponsorships to amplify reach.

Key Points:

• Leverage Networks: Use your book to gain opportunities on other platforms such as podcasts and guest blogs.
• Cross-Promotion: Ensure your book is promoted across all digital assets, including your website and social media channels.
• Crowdfunding and Sponsorships: Explore platforms like Kickstarter and seek industry sponsors to fund and promote your book.

Notable Quote:

"One of the best things you can do is leverage the book to get into opportunities in front of your audience." — Lacy Leifers [48:11]

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Additional Tips and Resources

Timestamps: [60:31] - End

In the closing segments, Lacy shares her favorite book, The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, and provides listeners with ways to connect and access her services. She encourages authors to utilize available tools and resources, emphasizing continuous refinement and audience-focused writing.

Key Points:

• Favorite Inspirational Reads: The Alchemist serves as a motivational tool for staying aligned with one’s purpose.
• Connecting with Lacy: Listeners can find Lacy at BlackfoxMarketing.ca and across major social media platforms.
• Ongoing Support: Lacy offers memberships, one-on-one coaching, and various tools to support authors in their writing and marketing journeys.

Notable Quote:

"Think of it like another client that you're writing for. Treat your writing process with the same professionalism and structure." — Rob Marsh [62:19]

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Conclusion

Episode #458 offers a comprehensive guide for aspiring authors, particularly copywriters looking to harness the power of books to boost their business. Lacy Leifers provides actionable strategies for overcoming common challenges, structuring content effectively, and leveraging books as powerful business tools. Whether you're just starting or seeking to refine your book-writing process, this episode is a valuable resource for turning your ideas into impactful publications.

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Connect with Lacy Leifers:
Website: BlackfoxMarketing.ca
Instagram: @LacyLeifers
Explore over 70 workshops and join the Copywriter Underground for additional support and coaching.

Join the Copywriter Underground:
Email: [e-mail]
Monthly coaching, expert workshops, and accountability groups to help you achieve your writing and business goals.

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Transcript

[Rob Marsh]

Thinking about writing a book. Yeah, me too. For a couple of years now. So let's talk about how to actually get it done. This is the Copywriter Club podcast. If you've been listening to this podcast.

[Kira Hug]

For more than a year or two.

[Rob Marsh]

You'Ve probably heard me talking about wanting.

[Kira Hug]

To write another book.

[Rob Marsh]

It's been a goal of mine for.

[Kira Hug]

A couple of years, even though I.

[Rob Marsh]

Haven'T made a lot of progress on it very recently. And you've probably heard at least one guest talk about the book writing process. Guests like Laura Gale, Jenny Nash, Stephanie Chandler, Mary Adkins, Ryan Guthrie, and Alison Fallon have all shared their approach, their secrets for finding time and organizing thoughts for a book, and their frameworks for putting together a best seller. It's been a few months, but we covered this ground before, so why talk about it again? Because if you're anything like me, it's less about learning the latest secret for writing a book and more about reminding yourself that this is still a goal and now is as good a time as ever to get it done. So if you have a goal to write a book, or, like me, want to write another book, one that better reflects the work that you're doing right now, or even a novel that will connect with readers today, this episode is for you. My guest today is author and book marketer Lacey Leifers. Lacy runs a community for authors and she helps writers at all stages of the book writing process, from organizing ideas to creating a game plan to market your book as a best seller. She knows her stuff, so I was more than a little interested to see if what she has to share will light a fire under my backside and get my book moving again. We talked about pen names, picking the right topic for your book, how to figure out if your book idea will work, book marketing, and a lot more. If you want to write a book or you're stuck in the middle of your book or you don't know where to start, this episode is for you and for me. But before we get to my interview with Lacy, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching, expert workshops, and accountability group to keep you moving towards your goal, and more than 70 different workshops to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently, I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews exclusively. Just the reviews? The copy critiques. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing, and in the last two weeks, she's already gotten two of those critiques.

[Kira Hug]

And where many writing coaches charge as.

[Rob Marsh]

Much as fifteen hundred dollars to do a single sales page critique, you can get unlimited reviews in the underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly, this is probably the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU2 and now my interview with Lacy Levers.

[Kira Hug]

Lacy, welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here and to hear about your story, but maybe more importantly, like, how we can all actually finally, eventually get around to writing our books. So tell me a little bit about how you got here and how you became this book book coach and. And author encourager.

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, thank you, Rob. I'm happy to be here. I like the new title Author encourager. I come by honestly. I have, I have a degree in marketing. I've been in the marketing world for quite a long time. I actually used to work in the corporate marketing world. And I mean, I've been an avid reader. Like, my earliest memories are my mom reading to me and my brother on the couch. And I'm not talking picture books. I'm talking like big narratives, no pictures, full, full books. And so I've always been in that space. And A little over 12 years ago, I just started to pick up some beta reading for authors. I thought it'd be kind of fun. I was always that type of person that would like, naturally just pick out grammatical, punctuation, types of errors when I'm reading books. So I kind of got into that very quickly. All of a sudden I found out I was into marketing. So all of a sudden I'm giving marketing advice and then I was doing like actual editing. And all of a sudden, like, I swear, like, the business just kind of grabbed onto me. And so I was actually doing on the side for five years officially. And then a little over five years ago, I launched full time into marketing. And I just saw there was such a big need in this space for coaching around the marketing, the promotion, the building your book with your audience in mind. And I just dove headfirst right into.

[Kira Hug]

Sounds like a fun job or career. Can we like draw some lines around what it is that you do? Like from start to finish? Let's say I'm somebody who is working on a book or I'm thinking about a book or maybe I've written a book. Like, where do you jump in and help somebody before we even start talking about all the stuff that we need to do as authors or potential?

[Lacy Leifers]

Absolutely. I can jump in at any Point. I always say there's never a too soon time to start your marketing for your book. In fact, the earlier you do it, the better. One of my big trainings is focused on like the seven stages of writing and marketing your book. Like, even from the idea phase, there's a lot you can do to set up the positioning of your book to, to ensure that the writing, the description, the characters, the world and everything else, the tips, tools, all that that you're building is actually fitting for an audience to make it better or I guess, easier for you to sell down the road when it comes to a launch. So I've worked with clients, I've started with them from I have an idea of a book and I'm just helping with the whole like messaging, branding, everything else to I launched book a couple years ago, I'm not seeing any sales or even I've launched multiple books and I'm just not quite where I want to be. Now how I work with clients. Honestly, no matter where your phase is, like what phase you're in, I have the same core setup that'll take my clients through because no matter where you are, there's always a space you can refine. So for example, like the first thing I take on when I work with clients is let's dig into your audience. So who is that end reader that's most likely going to read your book? And I don't just mean like age, gender, demographic, I mean like more the psychographics. Like what are they going through, what are they feeling, how they make purchasing, buying decisions and everything else. So you can really dive deep into your readers. Now again, depending where you're at, you might have a lot better of a handle of who your readers are. You might have absolutely no idea who your readers are going to be. So we really just dig and refine so we can better understand them. Because then when we go into next is around the branding side. So pulling out your personal brand. So like, what is your value? Add your vision, what are you creating for your readers? How do you position yourself in a way that your readers can understand? And I say that because the next part is all about messaging. And when it comes down to sales, when you have a book to promote, it's how well you can get the value across to that potential end reader of the value that your book and yourself is going to provide. To them. Marketing is simply just where you have the conversation. So when we get into that messaging piece, we need to make sure we really understand the readers. We need to ensure the Value points that you provide to them through your writing, your book, your services, so that we can start getting into the messaging piece to get really clear so that it now feels like you're. You're saying everything that's true for you, but now you're saying it in a language that they understand, like you're both speaking French all of a sudden. And then from there we get into strategies and tactics that fit your brand because there's so many different things you can do and there's so many different ways you can do it, depending on your audience, your likes, your interests, as well as the direction your business is going in. And then from there, it's a matter of refining your sales. So going into anything from like, I've helped clients set up an app, to their own coaching consulting program, to getting paid, like high ticket paid to speak on stage, to just writing more books or creating more assets within their world to sell. So again, wherever you are, it's going to be that same kind of progression who you need to speak to, to eventually being able to sell to them that they understand.

[Kira Hug]

So when I think about writing books, usually I'm thinking about a book that goes along with what I do in business. You know, maybe it's for the people that I'm serving in my business. Although I also have ideas for, you know, mysteries or thrillers. You know, every. Every couple of weeks maybe a new idea hits and like, ah, maybe I should write that book, you know, or, or, you know, I type into ChatGPT, you know, help me sketch out a couple of characters, you know, for, you know, something like that. But so obviously there's some differences between the different kinds of books that people want to write. We're a podcast for copywriters, and obviously copywriters have a ton of different interests. Firstly, we want to grow our businesses. So there may be something around marketing or writing books for our niche. But also a lot of us have these creative pursuits and we do want to write mysteries or romances or something sci fi. So, um, let's, let's just kind of maybe break those two apart or may, or maybe there's more ways we should be breaking apart the different kinds of books that we should write so that we make sure we're focusing questions in the right way. What's your advice when it comes to how we need to be thinking about the different kinds of books we could write?

[Lacy Leifers]

Absolutely. Listen, I'll say this first. I love when someone comes to me and they're writing different kinds of books. A lot of People get nervous like, well, I'm writing like a, a leadership focus or fact based like knowledge type of book. But I also have this idea for fantasy or romance or sci fi I love. I too do not write in just one genre. I have multiples. Like I've got my own stuff I'm writing on. On the book side of like the marketing promotion. I've also got multiple fantasies going on. Like there's so many different things. I think it's important especially the copyright is will kind of get that as well is it just allows you to fully use the entire creative side of your brain and flex it. And sometimes switching from one to the other actually gives yourself a bit of a vacation. Especially if you get to a sticking point with one of your pieces of that you are writing swap into something else. You can still be in that creative mode. It still gets a writing flowing, but you can kind of take a break from that one thing and jump into the other. So honestly, I'll actually see a lot of authors that are writing both. In a tangent, I would say no matter what you're writing, every. Whether it's like you're writing a children's book, novel, novel, and you're writing a book specifically for the agricultural world, because that's like your focus on your copywriting side. Even to what seem very different things. You just want to think about what is your overall brand and umbrella. And I think one of the things or one of the earlier decisions you're going to have to make is do you want to put everything under your one singular name or are you going to want to start incorporating pen names? Honestly, you can do both successfully very well. It just comes down to how much you can manage if you're wanting to do them two separate things. Sometimes it is a little bit easier to really step into that voice. And for a copywriter, that might actually be the easiest thing because they can seamlessly separate it. They're used to doing that with different clients. For them it might just be easier and then they can just focus on the different social. But it can feel like a lot more work because now you have two of every single social or digital platform, right? You even have two names you're trying to promote at different events and everything else. So you're spreading yourself pretty far and wide. If you are wanting to write a book and you have like the multiple different genres and you want to write it under the same name, just make sure you're very clear on that. And again, copywriters and content writers are in a Beautiful position because again, you're used to writing seamlessly for different clients. So just make it very clear, especially on your website or any landing pages, people get to that there is a difference in what you're getting to. So they come to you. You are the brand at this point. So it's author Rob Marsh, author Lacey Leafers. And then underneath that you have the different segments like, hey, I'm a children's book author, advocate for this cappuccino lover and like I'm a copywriter for the agriculture, like top five agriculture industries. Like whatever it is, you can put it all there, right? Like your brand gets to be whatever it is because you are who you are. So that's just kind of the first distinction. Now in terms of the actual writing, the next thing you're going to really want to determine is what is the purpose of each book. So for example, when I have clients and they take them in more on the writing side of it. So I become more of a writing coach in the early phases. And then into the marketing side, I always start as, what's the goal of this book? So what is your personal goal that you want to get out of it? Is it for generating new leads for your business? Is it just to promote some sales in a different world that you love and you have like you're enjoying? Is it you're wanting it to be more of a, a tool that you can get to open the doors to get onto podcast speaking opportunities to build trust with clients. Like just what is that goal and what is the purpose of it? And then for your audience, what is their key takeaway? So what is their value add that they're getting on? Being able to answer those two questions is really just going to help you preface how you need to write it and then the later stages of how you need to go in and promote it? That makes sense.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. You've got me thinking about the whole pen name thing, you know, and, and how I would split that and, and I wish there was an easy decision here because, you know, it feels like okay for my business. Of course I want to use the name that people are going to look for me, you know, online to, you know, find the consulting that I do or the coaching that I do, that kind of thing. So that feels like a no brainer, use your real name. But then, you know, moving into something else maybe probably depends a little bit on what, what somebody writes as well. You know, there might be in an audience, a some assumptions about whether somebody's a serious writer if they're writing, say, in a genre that is maybe not taken very seriously, you know. And so I don't really have a question here. I'm kind of just thinking out loud with you as I'm talking through how I would think about it. But I would probably use a pen name for anything I was not doing for my business, even though it would probably double my work.

[Lacy Leifers]

And you know what, like, and again, like, that's why I say. And I feel for authors that come because they want to very clear. They want me to say like, yes, append name, no append name.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. It doesn't feel like it's an easy decision.

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to have to answer that with asking a few questions of my own because that makes a decision. And again, it's like, what's. What is your goal and what is the key takeaway for your readers? Right. So there's a distinction. And just because you use a pen name doesn't mean it has to be to compared completely hidden. And I do. Like, I've worked with authors. There's one, for example, she writes thrillers. She also writes under a different pen name, a male. She's like, no one except my. Me and my husband knows that name. She's as a separate editor. Separate. Like everything is separate for that. I wasn't even doing marketing work for that. You know what I mean? But it's really cool. So she keeps it very separate because she's like, I get to just step into that space. I do no appearances, no speaking, no offense. And she makes a part of her brand. So it's actually more like reclusive kind of thing that adds like this mystery behind. She writes really deep thrillers and everything else. And she's like, it's a way for me to really step in. And then she writes her other thrills that most people know her by. So you can do them very separate and keep them there. And that's. That was her personal preference. And she liked that. Right. For her it was easier because then she actually sat there. Even her social. She's like, don't message. I don't respond. So she's made it very easy. She's like, look, I'll. I'll have a social, but I'm not going to do a lot of heavy work with the other. But she knows like the process, the systems, the people. She has connections, so she reaches out anyways. But you can also do them. There are others. For example, Samantha Young. She's an author that writes under two different pen names and both are promoted on her site. So she'll have for example, like all of her books and say books by genre or she'll say books by S. Yang, which she wrote to start getting into more of like this steamy romance, like more like the 50 shades of gray type of writing that while one person might read both romances, typically people are going to read this really steamy, intense ones or they want more of that romantasy kind of vibe, like a little bit more chill. You will have crossovers. But she promotes both. So honestly, it really is dependent on what you want to do. Everything is still a value. And that's why I say it just comes down to how will you position it as a value add to your reader so that they can see it.

[Kira Hug]

Okay. And as we're talking, it strikes me we've got the cart ahead of the horse here a little bit because we're talking about like choosing a pen name. We haven't even written a book yet. So let's, let's talk about the writing process and maybe some secrets for actually making it happen. Because having ideas, as I mentioned earlier, like I have an idea for a book probably twice a week. That's the easy part. And so, you know, when it comes to say, plotting out a book or figuring out what do you say in order to promote your business or to attract the right clients or even just to sit down and write that first chapter, you know, what can we do to start writing?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, absolutely. And let's start it at the very beginning of when does it make sense to start writing that book? Because I feel like there are a lot of writers, copycon, et cetera, that probably have always had this on the back of their mind. There are a lot of creatives that just have always had this on the back of their mind. And I'd say when it feels like it makes sense for you to do it, to make that leap to jump to open that new document and start writing is when it feels like you're getting to a point where either it's like the story, like if it's more of like the non fictional story where the story just can't seem to let go. Like every waking moment is basically spending you thinking about that story, that story has already come alive. You just actually have to play it for your readers. Right? So start writing if it's on and sorry, that's on the fictional side, if it's on the nonfictional side. So something it's more positioned with your business or to help in alignment with it. Then I would say once you feel like you're getting to a point in your business where you're ready to expand, but maybe you feel either your audience is tapped, you're having trouble spreading your reach, or you're having a little bit of trouble seemingly trying to close clients on either new offers or products, what a book in that space is going to do. And again, that books will be very focused on your like the subject matter you were the expert on. That one is going to help you really position yourself as that subject matter expertise. So this is where you're going to want to take in. And again, go back to that point of not every book needs to be a bestseller. Sometimes some books are just meant to open doors. So is your book meant to be a flagship type of book to promote your business? Is it meant to generate new leads for your business? Is it meant just to strengthen your brand relationship with potential leads or existing clients or people in the media and industry? So once you've decided, okay, yes, I need to write the book, I would say the biggest thing so it doesn't feel like you have to stop your business for a few months, like for five, six months, or you have to completely blow up your client load is go to what you've already written. And again, this is on the nonfiction side of your book. So go to any of your existing frameworks or expertise or blogs or podcasts or long form content or even material on your website or even your if you've had any programs or coaching services you've created for clients, any frameworks, guides, et cetera, that you've created for that, that is the basis of your business. You don't have to rewrite something brand new. You have it all there. You just have to put it in the order of a book. Right. So you're basically collecting all this information you've written over time. If you're not sure which of the ones would be best. I mean, pick the angles of the services that you really love. For example, like when I talk about marketing, marketing is a really fast role. There's so many different things you can write within. I love the consumer mindset. I love thinking about how people are thinking how they're making buying decisions and how I can turn that into something I can use for marketing and messaging and sales and everything else. So for my book that I'm writing is more on that branding, that content messaging piece. Yes, I could easily write a book about social media best practices and tips and everything else. And I'm sure it would sell really well, but I really love the branding side. So one pick like the area that most excites you because writing a book is no easy thing, right? There are a lot of ups and downs. So write in one of most passions. And then also another good gauge of what content to put in is what had the most positive feedback or engagement from your audience, whether it's clients, leads, people on social. So what pieces didn't just get the most like, but which pieces of content got the most engagement and follow up questions asked or even go through? Like any question you've gotten from a client, a lead someone in social. Do you have a piece of content that's written that answers that speaker specific question? That is what your current audience wants to know. So use that type of information to write the book because that's most likely what's going to sell because now you can speak to a specific problem with it. So that's a really good starting point when you're like just wanting to create it. Now in terms of the actual positioning the book again, we want to think about when we're writing it, what is that entry level offer? So what is the one thing that book is going to solve? This is true for any genre. So it's either like educate, entertain, inspect, inspire, send someone on an experience, make some fall in love with love again, make someone learn to self love again, teach someone how to be a better leader, teach someone to better self edit their books. Like whatever is that one value piece? And that's why it's like what's that key takeaway to your readers? What is that one entry level offer that your book is going to sell or to solve? And it's not saying that your book's not going to talk about everything that's related to it, but you have to have that one clear focus of the book so that when you are going into later market and promote it to people, be it interviews, podcasts, clients, leads, et cetera, it is very clear what value of that book is going to come and then that helps you position. So if you are still trying to determine what your book is, well, what's your stance on your business? What is the biggest thing you are trying to solve for your clients? Maybe that's what your book needs to be about.

[Kira Hug]

Can we talk about some specific ideas for that specific like as far as positioning, you know, if I, if I have a book that I'm thinking thinking about, you know, like how do I go from topic to the one thing or the problem like and how do I phrase that in a way that it makes sense the way that you're talking.

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah. So say like you're talking about how to phrase it to someone you're trying to sell it to. Is that correct?

[Kira Hug]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, I mean even just like to get the idea down on paper to make sure that I am focused on the right thing as I'm writing this book. Oh yeah, I've really got that book statement down. So I, and I mean, I can think of, you know, a way that I'd say, okay, you know, if I'm, if I'm writing a thriller, this is about the, you know, the president gets murdered. That's not really specific enough to be a book. Or if I'm writing a book for my market, you know, you know, how to write an email is probably not a big enough idea or it may not be interesting enough for a book. Right. Like, we've got to go a little bit deeper. We've got to really think through the positioning there. So some specifics that would help with that.

[Lacy Leifers]

I love that. So, and that's a great example too because. Yeah, how to write an email that might. Maybe it's for a little small novella that you're wanting to sell, a little grab and go.

[Kira Hug]

It's more of a lead magnet probably.

[Lacy Leifers]

Than an actual book. And it could be. Right. And that could be the thing you're writing where you just want to have a little lead make that people can download to give them access to a book. Doesn't have to be 200 plus pages. A book can sometimes be 50 pages. I had one of my clients wrote a book on how to start a metal detecting business on Kijiji and about as granular as you can get with a topic. And he had a fully. He wanted as like a small put in the back pocket of your jeans type of guide how to. And it did extremely well. So you can write a book specifically about emails. Now some things like if you're going very granular, you want to be careful because when you go really specific, you have to get specific about all the sub points. Sometimes, especially in today's digital and AI heavy, like heavily focused world, things can get outdated really quick. So for example, you wrote a book about how to like be like the best on Instagram. Maybe that's better as an ebook that you can go in and promote and you give that as a free giveaway type of thing. But don't write a book you're going to publish because probably by the time you publish it the algorithms have shifted and your book's already outdated. Four months later and you're going in to launch it. But if it feels too grand there, think about what's the bigger problem. So if someone's having an issue that you're clients and you're trying to write a book about how to set up an email, maybe like the whole process, strategy, everything else, think about what is that part up, right? So maybe the bigger part is about them like creating a value add or them selling themselves. So maybe email is one aspect into it, maybe looking for speaking engagements is another. So you can kind of take it to that next level up. But if you're wanting to focus it, here's what I walk through my clients on. So we have like what's your goal again? Like is it lead generation, is it brand builder, et cetera. Then you have what's your key takeaway for your readers? Like you want them to do that. How you'd want to position and a quick exercise to know like is this too specific or is this too broad? Is I want you to write five set points below it. So email marketing, for example, how do you break the like hey, I want to teach people how to get into email marketing. What would your five set points be? So five set points would be like what platforms to choose. Maybe, maybe the next is actually your frequency. How to determine like how often to send, when to send it, like what time of day, day of the week. Maybe another is like what content to put in. So it's a value add. How to build your email list, like how to get subscribers. And maybe the fifth pillar would be how to keep subscribers happy, right? How to limit those so you can go into those five topics. And when you really think about those, it's actually not too overly specific of a topic where you can get in again, is it going to be a 200 page novel? Likely not. But a lot of nonfiction novels aren't typically that big in size anyways and sometimes it's actually nice if it's a very clear cut specific topic with it. So then you can go in for each of those five sub points, I want you to break it into three points full like further. So then if you think for example just the first one, we talked about what platforms to be on so you can talk about platform options, you can talk about the different preferences and this is where you have to be careful on certain things like don't put pricing, don't put certain things with offer. So you'll say you want to look at what their pricing is, what types of things they include with their package. For example, this is a way to keep it evergreen, meaning it's not going to expire or go out of date. So then you can break it further and then you can look at like you can even maybe your third one is just how to best use those platforms when you do select one. So it's like other services they can look at implementing to replace. So maybe you're not just getting like Miele Lite, for example, is a great platform. Well, you can also do lead maintenance with it. You can do, you can actually sell from it as well. So you can tell people what other tools it can replace, right? So that's a great value add. And then from there it's like those three points, you just break them into three further points and then all of a sudden what you have is you basically have the start structure of sentences and paragraphs for that first chapter, right? Or maybe that chapter needs to be a little bit bigger. So that's how you further go in and break it down where you can say like, okay, can I, like is this too specific? Can I go even further on it? And that's how you can go and determine just how many pages. Because picking a platform, that's maybe one chapter at best, but maybe what else you can use a different platform on could be a whole separate chapter, right? So it's like, hey, instead of adding another platform to your business and you're already growing list of platforms that you're paying yearly for, here's what you can do and what you can look for and how to better use and how those can all talk to each other, right? Or you look like what to include in your email is one of the other pillars. Well, that can be multiple chapters where you can put in like details and information. And then maybe you have a whole appendices with a bunch of templates that you put that just like a drag and drop. Or you simply direct people, right to maybe you created a digital tool that you can direct people to like, hey, because you bought the book, click here for a bunch of templates. So there are a lot of different ways you could do it. And then that's how you start to create the bare bones structure of your book.

[Kira Hug]

So as far as structure goes, then are you suggesting each chapter should have those three points? Or like, is that the bare minimum? So, so the reason I'm asking this, I've seen people recommend like, okay, if you're gonna write a business book, you need to have seven chapters or you need to have 12 chapters. It's always seven or 12, I don't know why. And then you know, each chapter is broken down into a specific framework. Like you were just saying three ideas. So I'm trying to clarify in my own brain, like if I'm outlining a book, where should I go with that?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, absolutely. I always say the content should dictate. Now why I started with like, okay, start with your 5 points, 3 points for each and 3 points below is because from there you're going to see how much you can talk about for each of those subjects. So you'll see like even the very first one, like so technically it could be just five chapters. We add maybe like an introduction chapter. So that's number six. We add like a final wrap up chapter that's number seven. So sure, that could be your seven chapters right there. But we even look at like picking those platforms all of a sudden I looked into it, I was like, you know what, there's a whole like just picking up like platform selection, picking it. That part can be one chapter. But what else you can do with those platforms to better streamline your business? So more of an operational type of subject that could actually stand on its own. So it's more like looking at the type of content. And then that's why I say like put the three sub points below. Because as soon as you start thinking about each of those three sub points per those three sub points, you'll say, oh, this is actually a lot of information to include. And sometimes I will be honest, you don't know until you start writing it. Like I've worked with some. He was one, for example, his name is Jim. He wrote a book about how to be a better leader. And at first like he had just like basic four corks. He had like just four core pillars and he had four core chapters, introduction and then final. And he ended up leaving. It was like 17 chapters with the book because he kept breaking down the content further. And as he was writing he's like, this is actually pretty long and that's where it's okay to be a little bit more flex with it. There are going to be points like as you're writing, you're going to look and be like, this was a really heavy chapter. I, I can naturally break it off. Or you can even incorporate beta testers into this as well to get their feedback of where they might have more questions on stuff, where you can dive deeper on things, where you can add content and resources and further explanation which Is part of what Jim did is he went and he got like people to read some of his book already about subjects where he's like, hey, this feels like pretty heavy. He's like, what are the questions would you have as a follow up? And he got them just simply send back their questions. He's like, those are great. I should actually be answering those in this question. And he was able to expand like one chapter into three different ones. So it's not like there's a clear. I'm not going to say like has to be 7 or 12. Honestly, if you hear a marketer say numbers, it's because like there is a science behind certain numbers. Like price your book at 14.99, not $15, but if you're at an event, sell it for 15 or $20. Because it's just like how people have like money in their pocket and what they value, right? Like there's a strategy for that. But ultimately someone's not going to buy your book because of a number of chapters. They're going to buy your book for what value they think they're going to get from it, which comes down to how well you message it. And of course the content within is what's going to be proof of your value to sell whatever your book is trying to promote for you.

[Kira Hug]

It sounds like you're a fan of it's got to be as long as it's got to be. But there's also this thing that's happened with book chapters. You know, thanks to TV, movies, whatever, you know, 30, 40 years ago, book chapters were often 15 or 20 pages. Now they're like three pages especially like thrillers and mysteries, maybe business type books. And nonfiction is a little bit different, but even those chapters, you know, a Seth Godin book has a chapter that'll be a half a page, you know.

[Rob Marsh]

Or a page and a half. Right.

[Kira Hug]

So have you seen chapters shrink across the board? Or is. Or again is it.

[Rob Marsh]

It should be as long as it should be.

[Lacy Leifers]

It's audience dependent. And this is why we always start with knowing your readers. Because there are going to be certain ones that are more. They want that fast. Like you think of like more of a driver type of personality. Like I just want my answers now and fast. They're not going to read a book that has chapters that are 15 plus pages. They want it three pages or less. You're going to write. If you're writing for fantasy or sci fi reader, they want to fall into that world. Even romance, they want to escape into that world. They want it to be like a movie for their brain at that point. They want longer chapters. They don't want to be interrupted like a lot of times, right, if the content is easier. Because even some like fictional or fantasy books, if you have, if you're writing a book over a massive length of time and you want to get very detailed chapters, sometimes it's actually easier to stop and almost use that chapter as a scene break. So you don't have to go into like a two weeks long journey where you're basically repeating the same thing of them walking across country. We can kind of speed it up so then it makes sense, like actually break up your chapters a little bit more, but it allows you to dive deeper into it and then kind of break that space and then go into the next one. So again, this is why it's so, so important to understand your audience and where they're going to find that value and why marketing needs to be brought in when you're first thinking about that book. Because that's a great question. So think about. Readers are most likely. If you go back to the email marketing one, for example, people don't just want to be told about email marketing, they want templates. So for example, I have a tool that I created specifically on email marketing and it's yes, it's a 60 page document and it's a beefy boy, but it's filled with mostly templates and tools. And that's how I present it, right. I talk about like this strategy behind email market and how to incorporate. I talk about the different subjects or platforms and things to include. And I have subject line, a whole list of a bunch of subject lines for nonfiction versus fiction versus memoir authors. I have frequency of like how often you send it monthly to weekly. I have templates and scripts and everything for those emails based off of every major milestone. So it's filled with a lot more tools. So if you're writing a book specifically for email marketing, where people really just don't know how to do it or what to include, they're going to want more templates and tools. And whether you put that in the book where it makes it seem longer so you have to make sure you present it so they don't go, oh, this is a 100 page book on email marketing, not a chance. I just want to know what to do. So either you put in there, you're very clear that it's in there, or you make it smaller. We talk about the strategy and then you reference the templates that you've created elsewhere, which sometimes that might be a little bit easier if you want to change the templates and be a little bit more flexible as things and an opportunity shift.

[Kira Hug]

Let's say that I've figured this stuff out. I have a really good sense of the length, the content of my book. Now my big problem is finding time to write and getting it done. So you shared that, you know, we can go back and use some of the content that we've written in the past to maybe shortcut that process. But I've been writing for clients, you know, for four or five hours. I'm kind of drained and I'm now ready to start working on my own project. And, you know, it's. It's probably not going to happen. Or, you know, the kids come home from school and now it's not going to happen, or my, you know, your partner, you know, all of, all of the things that life throws at us. And I know Stephen Pressfield calls it the resistance. I think there's something very real there. But how do we overcome that?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, it's a great one. And so many people struggle with it. And I mean, I, I get it. Like, I will take. Sometimes it feels like it's months before I can get back into writing because I'm just, I'm focused on my own clients books and that is just a bit of a reality. And I think there's going to be a bit of an allowance you need to have where it just might not be that you can write every single day because you have family, you have pets, you have just sleep, you have, you know, you have so many other responsibilities outside of work. But that's where boundaries are really going to come into place and you're going to have to uphold them. You're going to have to start thinking about yourself as another client that you're writing for. And I want you to put that in your mindset. Like, even like you have, like typically, like when any of us creators, we're working with clients, we have like restoring all of their stuff digitally. We have a client folder for each person. You get put right in that same client folder as another one. So you need to start almost like tricking your mind of going into this. And just like you would any other client, you're going to position time. Now, if you're running a business, let's be honest, it's not feasible for you to write every single day, even if you don't have the family responsibilities outside of that, because you've also still got to run your business. And this is where it's going to be a bit of a blend because the business is currently what's making money for you. So it does have to get at least 50% of your focus, if not more at this point. But then the writing side of it, whatever you're doing is going to create additional revenue. It might create additional positioning or even just further elevate you as a subject matter expert in your field, as a leader in your industry. So it is a valuable tool. Just like when you developed your tools, your services, or anything else for your business, this is another one. It's just going to be longer. So you're going to have to set boundaries around what else is getting focused on at that time and be really clear with your priorities. So if you're writing your book, probably not the best time to create three other digital tools for your clients. Those just might have to wait. Yes, absolutely. Go back through all of your tools and resources and break things into tasks. Like your one task is just to go back one day and just collect everything and maybe just make your goal for two hours. You go through every tool, resource, script, everything you've created for your business that you think would be value to your readers for the goal of it for your book, and then just put those in a folder, like in your client folder, and that's your task for that day. Like, just be very specific with it. And then you want to really think about, like, of course, like having to, like to write it in everything else. But block that time off in your calendar of what seems like it's a feasible goal for you. If it's four hours, or maybe it's two hours once a week or four hours every two weeks, that's fine. That's your time. It's just obviously going to take a lot longer. It's the same thing as, like if, say you really want to build muscle mass, if you go to the gym seven days versus four days, you're probably going to hit your targets faster if you're going seven days a week. But is it feasible to go seven days a week when you have everything in? It might not. Be. So you might burn out in other areas and maybe all of a sudden you're so exhausted and worn out you're not making better dietary decisions anymore either. So you're kind of back to square one, right? You don't want to blow up one of your business just to focus on another. So that's where it's just be realistic with your time. Set a goal for one month and see how it felt week to week. Was it a struggle to get into writing? Did it feel like you by the end of two hours ago? I wish I could have kept writing, but I had another call bump up that time. So really assess with yourself. And this way, so, like, set your boundaries, but really have that self awareness of what seems to be working and not working. If you're not sure, this is where it's good to, like, talk to a coach. But then in terms of writing, like, also look to use tools. Like, don't be scared of using tools, like AI, even ChatGPT. Like, throw all your tools and resources into it, upload everything and say, hey, I want to write a book. Here's a position's book. Here are the readers it's going to be focused towards. Here's my goal for it. Here's, like, the parameters of what I wanted to look for. Can you build me a loose structure or an outline of what this book needs to look like? So set it for yourself, right? And you can even, like, get it, like, use it to even, like, take the legwork off of. Okay, now I want to make it targeted, like, more or less. I want it to be 10 chapters, right? I want it with these subjects. I would like to have it published by February of next year. It's now July. I have really only two hours per week. Can you set me a schedule of what I need to have written, at what point in each? Like, you can use AI types of features to help you kind of keep on track and keep yourself accountable. Because sometimes as creatives, we spend the most time thinking about how to start something versus actually getting in and doing it. So, like, stop yourself from stopping before you get to that point.

[Kira Hug]

What do you think about speaking a book?

[Lacy Leifers]

And.

[Kira Hug]

And I. I actually have some pretty strong feelings about this, but I. I've seen other gurus talking about, oh, yeah, it's so easy to write a book. All you have to do is talk to your phone and then, you know, have a transcription and boom, your book is done.

[Rob Marsh]

Thoughts?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah. So it's fine. Like, I'm a per. I love speaking. I'm sure you guys, y' all probably could tell this. Um, I like speaking if I'm using my AI features. Like, I'm the one. Like, I'm voice to text all the time where I can. To me, it's very efficient. My mind works fast. My mouth works even faster. So for me, it's efficient. I think, again, the decision is gonna be what's better for you. I have A lot of clients that they actually perform better with writing. For me, a lot of times with Voice now, I would never say like, and I will say this like, please don't just write it and say done. Send it to an editor, because it's not gonna be in a great space. Because the way we read is different than the way we listen. So again, you always have to think about your end users. So you can't. And that's like, you can't write the book how you would teach the subject because it's going to be very focused more on like you as kind of subject matter. You have to write the book and the way your audience is going to best absorb it. So you actually do have to go back and gatekeep it if writing or if speaking the book is easier for you to just get the idea that first draft out, which the first draft is always gonna be the hardest. I think absolutely, go for it. But your second draft has to be really focused on how is the position of this book done and set and is it speaking to my reader. So you might find if you're speaking it, it's actually harder to get into that second draft and revise it because you're almost completely changing your point of view in a way, depending how you spoke it. Because a lot of times, again, you're speaking as you're teaching, but how people listen is going to be a little bit different. And so you might, you know, put in a couple like, safeguards, for example, like, yes, maybe you do three minimum passes of your own before anybody else looks at it, just, just to make sure you're capturing again, like, the second draft is like you're adding the bulk, the structure, the flow, organization. You're changing things around. The third is really like you're going in and adding other content, polishing as best as you can where you think this sounds like a good story. At that point. You might want to get more beta readers. Like, I'd say, like, if you find three minimum tests. And for anybody that doesn't know, a beta reader is someone who reads your book before it goes to an editor just to simply beta test it to say, yes, there's value, the writing sounds good. It carried me along. The points made sense, the plot was interesting. They just simply test the book. There's someone that has to read in that audience or interested audience or in that industry and they can give that feedback from a reader's point of view. So bare minimum, at the very minimum, you should have three, because you can get opposing opinions if you can get 5 to 6, great. If you can get 10, even better. If you are writing this book and you're speaking it aloud to get those first drafts, you might want to get at least like that 6 to 10 level mark so that you can really get them and then really ask them the questions of, does this make sense? Did this sit with you? What questions did you have after reading it? What felt unanswered to you? What didn't make sense? Was there anything that was confusing or that you struggled to read through? Like you're asking those gate tip, like checking types of questions to really make sure that now it's fit and positioned to your audience?

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. Mentioning the second draft there, I think is key. I've seen several books that were spoken, you know, created books or podcasts turned into books, and I think they skipped that second draft because they read like disjointed conversations. And this is my problem with the whole speaking it as well. I, I mean, I. We've had some amazing discussions on this podcast and I think, ooh, that'd be a great book. But if you look at the transcript, there's no way anybody would want to read the transcript. Yeah. And so there's so much reworking that has to happen. So I'm, I'm actually glad to hear you say that because that really tracks with a lot of my thoughts. Thoughts around speaking the book and how much actual extra work it creates.

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah. And I think like, at the end of the day, like, again, writing a book, it's such an up and down journey. There are going to be so many points that feel like a struggle or hurdle. So do whatever you can to remove those roadblocks for yourself. If it's using AI to help you sort and organize stuff or keep you accountable, if it's speaking out loud, that's all fine. Just treat those as a way to create capacity. But you have to go in and make sure the book reads specifically to the readers so that the value actually comes across. Because there's nothing worse than spending all of that time and then your readers getting it and then not finding value. And even worse than like the one or two stars is people just not finding any value. And they actually see that in you as well. Like, they actually start to lump you in with that. Because a book is, it's an extension of your brand. It's an extension of who you are, your thoughts, lessons, teaches, morals, the way you think, the way you're creative, everything else, no matter the genre. So you want to make sure that it's a great representation, especially if you're trying to use it for any type of lead generating book or anything to position yourself in the brand, to get yourself better known in the industry. They're going to read that and it's a great sample size of who you are to that. So if they don't find value in that, they're not going to find value in your coaching program or service or whatever else you're offering because they're just going to think it's the same.

[Kira Hug]

Yeah. While we're, you're talking about that lead generation and trust building, I think that there are some really good reasons that just about anybody who is a service provider ought to have a book. You know, I wrote a book several years ago about, you know, telling a brand story. I, you know, I printed out a bunch of them, it's available on Amazon or whatever. But I find when I include it as one of my samples to a potential client that I get a better response. Like having written a book, even though I guarantee, you know, one out of 10 of them maybe cracks it open to see what the book is about. But they see me as the author of this book in the, this thing that I do builds trust. It build, you know, it says that I'm an expert. In addition to that though, what, what other things does a book bring to us as business owners, you know, and, and how can we use the book to grow our business?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, it's really, I mean, honestly the biggest thing is the book is just, it really builds trust, it builds that expertise. It's that social proof of oh, I'm doing what I'm saying I am doing, I am there. It also creates a little bit of safety and security, especially again with those of us that work with clients all over the world or more remote, even if it's within the same city. But you work remote. It just creates a sense of connection as well. So it's like, oh like they're a physical person. Because anything that's the hardest part about trying to sell yourself when it's a purely online service based type of offer that you're providing to someone is it doesn't feel tangible. And people still find comfort in tangible. So there's so many people that grew up in that age of having DVDs, none of us are throwing DVDs away because like, what if all of a sudden Netflix doesn't work anymore? I've lost all those. But I threw it all my deep, right. Like there's this tangible that just creates a Comfort. And so when you give them a product, it's almost something they can physically hold. Like, yeah, sure, they have to print it out, even if it's like a digital book, but it's something they can hold in their hand. So it creates that sense of realism, of, oh, they're a real person. There is like a sense of like connection because it's like, okay, they now get a better sense of you. And honestly, sometimes it's not only a way to like build trust, but it's a way to like kind of secure that final sale. Like, oh, this is fantastic. Like, I've really, like, you can have trust with someone and they've been in your network for years and years, like five plus years, but have never actually converted. So never actually bought into a coaching program or service or whatever you're offering. But then if you create a product because they're like, well, I'm getting enough information. But if you can give them a book, even if it's a free copy, and that's a great strategy to use to help attract people's attention. And they can get in and they read it and like, this is amazing. This is a deep dive. It's like everything you've put in your content all in one place, or everything you've spoken or written about all in one place, they see and they're like. And then you write it in a way that shows them like, hey, here's what you need to know. Here's a deep dive here so you can work with me further in these applications. Now you become the resource for them and now they go, I see exactly how this can help me with my business. I need to actually go in and purchase. So there are a lot of ways, honestly, like I always tell people, like, especially in a nonfiction book, think of it like, like a larger physical version or digital version of your business card. Like, it's just such a better way. It's even a better way. Like when you're going, if you're a speaker, for example, and you are trying to promote your services or coaching, you're selling high ticket types of programs and offers, you can write a book. And it's actually a better way to help get people in. So it almost becomes part of your funnel system. So you get in, they hear you speak, you have that first interaction. Your position is a bit of like a trusted knowledge resource because you were asked to speak in an event that they were at, whether it's on a panel, keynote, or just on a forum. So you already have a bit of position. And then if you say like, hey, like I've got this book, maybe you give them a free one again. And from that free one you sell like another tool, program or something else. It builds like that trust and relationship over time. So as they're going in, as they're going about their days, and especially when you, all of your content is speaking very specifically to the problems they're having and you show that it solves them, the book can actually help you do the work of selling into one of your programs or code like courses because it gets you into it. And that's where like it can be part of where we have like smaller to larger sized offerings before they get to that bigger, higher ticket. Like maybe it's a free downloadable tool which. And from there it's like, hey, here's like a paid type of tool that's a little bit smaller and then or here's this book that you can get for free or here's this like a small little novella or like a like kind of how to guide to hey, buy this bigger book that's here. So it's like you get people saying yes at bigger increments. So by the time they get to your service that you're offering, it's a heck yes. Because they're like they have so much or they've gained so much value from you all along that there's no way they go and even think about working with anybody else because you're the one that's helped them so far in the business.

[Kira Hug]

I think the challenge here is, let's say we have a book, we've written the book. It's a little bit like some of the other resources that maybe we've created to promote our businesses, our website or our social media posts. And they're not getting in front of people. So I know this is a big part of what you help authors do, but can you give us just a few ideas of how we can get our books or even those other resources out in front of this audience so that they engage with it and see. Yes, we are the experts that you know, we claim to be and you should be working with us as copywriters.

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, great question. One of the best things you can do is leverage the book to get into opportunities in front of your audience. So if you're struggling to get sales or you're not able to expand into that further audience to get more, like maybe you've tapped out sales in your existing audience, you're finding yourself not able to grow and struggle. You need to get in front of other people's audiences. You're almost like, I, I use the phrase bopa B O, P A and I heard that from a coach years ago and I loved it. It's boring. Other people's audiences. So when you're trying to expand the reach, the size of your audience to new people that you didn't have before, you want to get on to other people's audiences, whether that's writing a blog for them, being on their podcast, maybe they're speaking a gig, like an event or workshop that they're doing. Maybe get into like different local media, like TV, radio, et cetera, or just different Instagram influencers or TikTok influencers or any of those that are there or industry influencers. You use your book as a way to get in front of those people. So it's like, hey, I have this book. It's about X, Y, Z. I would love to get on. I know you're talking about like this to your audience. I would love to get on and just share some tips and tools and practices. Right. With your audience. So you just use it as a way to leverage. You send the book, like a free digital copy of the book to those people and use it just to get in front of them so that you can speak to their audience. So you allow it to show, like, your value. Then you get brought onto these opportunities where now you get to speak. And so everyone's viewing you as this subject matter expert already because the person they trust and have credibility built with is saying, hey, you've got to listen to this person. They're fantastic. So now you get on, you speak absolutely from that platform. You can sell the book, you can sell your services, but it's more about just getting your foot in the door for those opportunities. So what you're doing is you're actually selling your overall brand. You're selling how you can help those people through either your book or your tools or your services or programs or anything else. And you can also use it, of course, like, if you have, like, potential, like any partners, any. If you have, like clients that just started, if you have potential clients, use that as a piece. Be like, well, hey, like, I know you're unsurable, like, work to me, all this. I actually wrote a book, like, I know this is one of your struggles. Actually wrote a book specifically on that. Why don't you just send you a free copy of it, you know, get you some answers, get you some training. We can chat in two weeks. Like, gives you a Chance to kind of read through the book and see if that's a fit. Like sometimes they actually help you close that sale. But the biggest thing is really just using it to get in front of those other people so that you can see speak about what you are the expert on.

[Kira Hug]

So this might be a strange question, but it occurred to me as we were talking earlier, is there any reason or benefit from trying to find a.

[Rob Marsh]

Sponsor for a book?

[Kira Hug]

Is that even something that, you know, authors ought to be spending any time thinking about or doing?

[Lacy Leifers]

It's not a weird question at all. I mean, you certainly can. A lot of people start using Kickstarter, so that's a really. I'd say that's probably the most popular. Now, the success of a Kickstarter campaign depends on how, how great your existing audience is. Like, do you have a lot of engagement with your existing audience? So if you're not on any socials, you're not posting anything, and therefore you don't have any engagement, Honestly, it's not worth your time to do a Kickstarter simply because the Kickstarter is really promoted by you. So it's how much you have to promote out to your audience now that is you asking for your existing audience. So if you are going that route, you want to think about value ads, they get with it and you want to do like tiered types of offerings. And again, think about your audience. Like, if you're selling, it's a high. Like, I've had some clients and they're selling like, you know, there's one, he's like, he's a lawyer, he's selling like bigger, higher profile consulting gigs, like a lot higher ticket price. So his offerings are more like, like 25, 50, 100, 500. And he has one for 10,000. Right. So it's like he's selling bigger ones because he's likely he's trying to get bigger types of clients. Now if you're selling to someone who's just trying to build their business, they're not going to have $10,000 to spend. So maybe yours is more like 5, 10, 20. Maybe the max is a 51. That's perfectly okay. Again, know your audience and understand. But think about what they're going to get at each tier. The nice thing about a Kickstarter campaign is if you don't reach your funding goal, nobody gets charged. Right? But just think about what's going to be of value to them. And this is where you can use other tools or resources or things you've created and Just refresh them and do giveaways. Or maybe you can just give free consulting sessions or sign copies of the books or whatever else you can do that goes along with it. You can certainly look for sponsors. So if you're writing within a certain industry and there is a company that is doing stuff, for example, we go back to that treasure hunting client of mine. He ended up writing a second book that was like deep sea, like underwater dive detecting. And he actually got a sponsor of Minelab is a big company that had like a lot of metal detecting equipment. They sponsored the entirety of his second book and he actually brought him out to shows. Now that one worked because with his first book our whole focus was like back to that bopa, like bore an axe to other people's audiences. We really focus on different industry relationships that he had. So he got that sponsorship not cause he's like, I'm writing this book, I'm doing this. Can you sponsor it? He got it because he was telling about the book, about what he was writing, what he's doing in the industry, about the success of the first book and how he was like, even he's like, yeah, I've used my equipment all the time. And like, that's fantastic. We'd love to talk to you about maybe doing something. It's like, absolutely, let's talk about collaboration. So you want to build relation. Don't just straight go and just ask for a sponsorship, but build like those relationships. People really position how it is of value and then you can have that conversation. The same thing with sales. You don't just make a cold outreach with something. You want to build that relationship and warm up that relationship that are more likely to say yes. So there is absolutely value to it. Don't let it stop the production. Like you can write your book for free. It's when you start getting the deeper and even. Like on the editing piece, you can use beta editors. I've even had some clients will just first run through their stuff, just through chatgpt in sections and say, can you just look for like basic grammar, punctuation or Grammarly is another one like again like an AI type of tool where you just get like the general types of ones listed so that's just as clean as possible. And then you send it to an editor. So there's still a lot of things you can do to save time and money or to wait until you have to spend money on it. So it gives yourself a little bit of time to find a sponsorship if you want.

[Kira Hug]

What else should we be thinking about when it comes to writing or promoting our books.

[Lacy Leifers]

I would say that even in a short form content or social media type of world, or an AI type of world, a book is still a powerful tool. It's often the best trust shortcut, especially for those higher value clients. Or if you're trying to sell anything $1,000 or more, or you're selling to an audience that maybe just has very little understanding of what you're like the value of your service is to them. For example, like a lot of people in marketing are like, they don't understand the phrase marketing. I feel like copywriters kind of get that. Content writers get a lot of that too. Is like, well, I can write something on my own or I can promote on my own, but they don't really know the full mechanics of how to do it or what things to pick to make sure it's done as strategically and efficiently as possible. So for certain industries like that, like a book can be really effective just to give more of that value add into that space. You can also, like, if you are writing the book, don't be scared to put, especially if it's on that nonfiction side where it's related to what you're offering as services and programs outside of it. Don't be scared to put stories within the book. So don't just tell people facts, storyteller facts. Tell them within the book that you also have services and programs and everything else. So don't just say here are like three tips and tools to do it. Be like, for example, I had this one client that did this and here's how they did this and here's a really cool result. So you're subliminally letting people know like, hey, you can also hire me for these things later on so they know you're there. They know you're not just someone who's being super nice and you get a bunch of information which absolutely, that's the point of it. But you're also doing it to sell. And then don't forget to sell your book at the end of it, like, or sell yourself at the end of it. So at the end of the book it's like you can give like a freebie or something else if you're doing a book. Like, don't. If you've got a newsletter especially don't forget to sell the newsletter. And you can use that with like have another lead magnet that you're giving up. Say like, hey, and if you want like this specific thing that relates to something in the book so helps deepen that value, give that where it's like you get to do like the they subscribe to the newsletter from doing that. It also further builds trust and everything else keeps them in that world. And I always tell authors like your goal is to keep people within your world and to keep the experience of the world, no matter the genre. If you're making up a world or just you're existing that you're offering on the nonfiction side, you just want to keep them interacting in your space. So the more they do, the more likely are they say yes. But then you have that and it's like, and hey, if you want to dive into this, check out my programs, check out my services, check out like I have a bunch of free services on my website, like drive people back and forth. And the other thing is to make sure you're cross promoting across all of your assets. Digital, social, let people know that if you're on a podcast and you have a book to sell and a program, of course let them know to all those things like, and hey, if you really want to dive into it, you know, check out my book, you can get it here or get this free tool on my website or join it, right? Like let people know and then vice versa. If you're on your website, have a newsletter pop up where you're giving away that freebie. Let them know you've also got the books. Even if you're choosing to write books in a very different genre, but you're doing that, you can have like a link from your main website and be like, and hey, like if you're here and you happen to also be a fantasy lover, like check out my books at this. Whether it's your pen name or something else, like you can use these opportunities to cross promote because no one person, no one reader only is interested in one thing. Even if you're writing services and your focus is on like writing services, there's a chance that the person you're writing to might also like sci fi or they might like a book about leadership or something else, right? You just have to position what that value is for them. And then if you're not quite ready to start a book, you're like, okay, I love the idea, I'd like to write a book. Here's what you can do for kind of like baby steps into it. Just build like micro authority through pillar type of content. So like small lead magnets, even a series of content you can still go through. That exercise I talked about before is like what would Be the thing you'd want to write about in those five set points in three and three. Start writing some of those pieces that you can just give to your clients now. So you're almost writing it in the a piecemeal kind of format where you get to validate your ideas with workshops or even mini products and tools and downloadable resources. First, where you go, okay, people are liking this, they're engaging on it. And then from each of those, it's a real easy sell into like, hey, and if you love this 20 page guide of email marketing, check out my book. It dives even deeper and it has like hundreds of templates and tools and resources. So it just gives you something else to sell in from the book. It's like, and hey, like, if you want marketing stuff still seems confusing. Like, I've, I do tons of copywriting. Like, you can hire me to write your email and set it up for you, right? So then you can start to funnel people through all these different opportunities and it gives you a way to like, start writing your book without officially getting into writing it.

[Kira Hug]

Okay, very different question, but what's your favorite book, Lacy?

[Lacy Leifers]

Oh, I know this is a hard.

[Kira Hug]

Question for book lovers to answer because there's probably 30 potential answers, but yes, 100.

[Lacy Leifers]

Oh, and I've read so many books, honestly, I will say when I come back to every two to three years is the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. I love the book. It's all about the focus of, you know, we kind of talked about resistance earlier, but it's all about knowing and trusting that you have like a purpose. Like you're here for some like, purpose, whatever that is, and then following that path to find it, like, of going through and, you know, the, the young shepherd along the way. And I won't give details, but he, he hits quite a few different roadblocks. Some really great, some not so great. Like, resistance can be positive and negative. It's all these things meant to pull you from your path. And it's about getting really clear and continuing. Like, no, like I meant to do something and falling on that. And I just love it for me, just like, it's always a really good reconnect to me of like, what am I wanting? Like, what value am I wanting to provide to people? What is my next directional point? What am I getting to? Am I still on my path? Have I strayed? And so I love that book. I've. I honestly don't know how many times I've read it. It's such a great one.

[Kira Hug]

It's been a long time since I've read it, but now you're making me think I need to go back and reread it. So. Okay, well, you obviously you help writers with all of these kinds of questions in a variety of ways. You know, you've got a membership and one on one coaching. So if people want to engage with you, Lacy, and learn more or just follow you, you know, if they're not quite ready, where should they go? What should they do?

[Lacy Leifers]

Yeah, you know what the easiest is? Go to BlackfoxMarketing CA. I that's my website. I have all my social media links. I and I'm on all the major ones. I have a bunch of like free tools, bigger workbooks you can purchase. I have my elevate membership you can join if you want some guidance. I have one on one coach, like whatever you kind of need. I've got an offer for like set to help you through whatever phase you're in or kind of whatever type of learner you are. So just go to BlackfoxMarketing CA. You'll find it. If you can't remember that, just search Lacy Leafers on any social platform because I'm literally the only one at this point and you can find me on there too.

[Rob Marsh]

Awesome.

[Kira Hug]

Thanks, Lacy. I appreciate your advice and yeah, all the help that your inspiration for me to maybe finally get around to writing another book.

[Lacy Leifers]

I hope you do. And Rob, thank you so much for having me. This was incredible. And if anybody, if you have any questions on any of this, please don't hesitate to reach out.

[Rob Marsh]

Awesome.

[Kira Hug]

Thanks, Lacy.

[Rob Marsh]

Thanks to Lacey Leifers for helping me reset my goal and my effort to.

[Kira Hug]

Finally get writing my next book again.

[Rob Marsh]

I've written a book before and I've got to admit that while I think it's a good book, by the time I finished writing it, I was no longer in love with the topic or the book itself. And at least in the case of that book, it's on a topic or a niche that I don't really do a lot of work in anymore. So it's definitely time for a book that's more relevant to my business today. If you want to connect with Lacy or use some of the tools that she's created for authors to write and market their books, connect with her on Instagram where she's got this long list of links to resources for authors. I'm serious, there's like 20 or 25 different things that she can help you with. You can also find her at blackfoxmarketing CA during our discussion, we talked about the speak your book formula for writing a book.

[Kira Hug]

I want to be clear that I'm.

[Rob Marsh]

Not saying that that process can't work, but as Lacy points out, we tend to speak differently than we write and we listen differently than we read. So you can speak your book, but you're going to want to put in a lot of work to make sure that it actually reads like a book and not like a transcript, which can be hard to follow. If this is the only way that you're going to get your book out of your head and down on paper, then go for it. And while having a book for its own sake may be worth the effort, a book opens all kinds of doors for you and your business, maybe more than any other marketing materials can. Even a podcast, which can be a great way to get your voice and your thoughts out into the world, it doesn't really have the permanence of a book. There's a reason why author and authority are basically the same word when it comes to building trust, getting the attention of your ideal clients, and even booking yourself onto podcasts or events. Having a good book makes all the difference. If you want to write a book, drop me an email and let me know. I'd love to hear about your process for getting it done, and it just might help inspire me so that I get mine done too. Finally, a quick reminder that if you want your copy reviewed by someone who can give you expert advice on how to make it better, jump into the Copywriter Underground now and let me see your latest project. You can learn more about the [e-mail] TCU2 and that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know, or if you don't know another writer or freelancer who you can share it with, visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review there. If you haven't left a review before, now's the time. Today. Right now. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends will thank you.

[Kira Hug]

Don't forget to check out the Copywriter.

[Rob Marsh]

Underground@The copywriterclub.com tcu2 I'll see you next week. Sam.