← The Copywriter Club Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:00]
Sue Bowness
From taco night in Tulum to sushi in Tokyo, make every bite rewarding with gold from Amex. Wherever you dine, four times Membership Rewards points at restaurants worldwide are piling up. Learn more@americanexpress.com Explore Gold terms and Points.
- [00:14]
Rob Marsh
Cap Apply what's the best adjective to describe a hardworking, client pleasing, financially successful copywriter? How about Feisty? This is the Copywriter Club Podcast when it comes to freelancing, there is no one right way to do things. There are thousands of niches to serve millions of clients with millions of different needs. There are hundreds of ways to find those clients and thousand more ways to solve their problems. But every writer who owns their own business has lots of things in common with others who are doing the same thing. And if you try to describe them, especially those freelancers who are actually finding clients, doing good work and earning enough to make a living, well, one word that comes to mind is feisty. The Feisty Freelancer brings energy to their work. They're not afraid to stand up for themselves or the clients that they're writing for, and they might even be a little bit playful. The Feisty Freelancer is also the name of a new book written by content writer and former think tank member Sue Bowness. Sue's book book is a primer for freelancers of all kinds, not just writers, designers, artists, programmers, anyone who is running their own business and wants to do more than struggle for scraps. The Feisty Freelancer has what it takes to succeed. This is Sue's second appearance on the podcast. The first one happened almost three years ago. It's episode 319 if you want to check it out. Given Sue's expertise as a freelancer and as a college professor, it's probably not a coincidence that some of the ideas that we talked about then made it into the book. But it's been a while since we had that discussion, so I took the opportunity to ask sue about the topics that she covers in her book. Things like pitching, working with corporate clients, marketing, and writing business strategies for being productive and getting things done. We even talked about whether freelancing is something that people should be considering to do at all today. I think you're going to like what she had to share before we get to my interview with sue, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. As it usually is. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops and accountability to keep you moving towards your goals, and more than 70 different workshops to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently, I asked a new member why she joined the Underground, and she said that she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And while many other writing coaches charge as much as fifteen hundred dollars to look at a single sales page or a bunch of emails, you can get unlimited reviews in the Underground for less than $90 a month. In fact, that particular member has already had two reviews of her copy, and it's been just under a month. Honestly, this might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU2 and now my interview with Sue Bowness. Sue, welcome to welcome back, I think, to the podcast. It's been a long time since we talked, but you've done some new things in your business and so I thought it'd be a really good time to catch up. So, yeah, catch us up. What are you doing as a content strategist, content writer, and now as a published author of the book the Feisty Freelancer.
- [03:47]
Sue Bowness
Thanks very much, Rob for having me on. This is my second time and I'm a regular listener as well, too. I always get a lot from this podcast, so really appreciate being a guest here. I am very excited that my book the Feisty A Friendly Guide to Visioning, Planning, and growing your Writing Business came out in January 2025. And so it's been fun to try to find my readers. And so that's kind of been an interesting exploration since then, I would say. That's my newest news is this book. And so I've been doing lots of different experiments with how to promote it, how to find my readers, that kind of thing. And in terms of my business, I've been still just embracing the freelance lifestyle, which has been basically my whole career. I started out working for a magazine. When I got laid off, I thought, hey, let's try this freelance thing. And it really stuck for me. I really appreciate all the things that everyone appreciates about freelancing. The flexibility in particular, especially when it's the summertime, not having to schedule vacations if it's a nice Friday afternoon, being able to take it off and, and then sometimes being super busy and not being able to take it off and being grateful for the work and being really useful for making a life that is really my own. So love all those things about freelancing. And I'm a content writer, so I've been sticking to that. I think I realized a few years ago that that would be my real focus and I do the things as we all do, don't say no to a whole lot, but really focus on doing the long form, writing blog posts and articles and writing some journalism and then also doing a lot of writing for organizations that need that kind of thing. So I'm always on the lookout for places, corporate clients who are producing magazines or blog posts or really value that storytelling element. And so that's been my interest all along and my focus really more publicly in the last few years, I would say, and even since I was in the copywriter club think tank really made me think hard about that and really promoting that part of my, my business.
- [06:05]
Rob Marsh
So why a book? You know, this could have been a series of blog posts, I suppose it's way, it's way more intensive than a series of blog posts, of course. But yeah, why write a book? There are other books out there about, you know, freelance business. So yeah, what made you do it?
- [06:22]
Sue Bowness
So there's totally a lot of books out there and ones that I recommend. And this book actually started in my class on freelancing. And so I looked around and I didn't see a book that I wanted to choose as my title in class. And yet I felt like I had all this advice to give that I was giving along the way. So I wrote it initially as an ebook for my class, about half to a quarter of the size or length, and just shared it with my students, got some feedback from them, and as I taught the class over five years, just kept adding more of the questions that they were asking, that kind of thing. And so really it started that way. And I'd always thought I wanted to turn it into a published book and, and give myself that challenge. And so did that as a way to share more widely what I've Learned over my 20 plus years of freelancing. And so I created it for the person who would be in my student's position really thinking or in my position, say 20 years ago, like thinking like I'd really like this independent lifestyle. How do we get started?
- [07:31]
Rob Marsh
So let's talk a little bit about that. You know, you teach a class on freelancing for. I think it's for your local college there, which is amazing. But the, and this book doesn't just apply to copywriters or content writers. You know, this is about freelancing as a whole. So this is, you know, remarkably helpful for designers, for programmers, you know, basically anybody who runs freelance business and needs to bring in clients. But let's, let's talk a little bit about who should Consider being a freelancer and maybe who should skip it altogether.
- [08:08]
Sue Bowness
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I did start to, I did write the book in my class where it was for writers as I helped to start a program, as you note, at my local college, Humber College in Toronto, on how to. Well, the, the, the course, the program is about how to become a professional writer communicator. We train students broadly on that topic. And this course that I taught on freelancing is really to answer those questions. I guess I would say my one regret in publishing the book is to not have made it for a wider audience because for example, I did a talk a few months ago where I said to students, okay, who here wants to become a writer or an editor? And hands up were very few actually. And I was like, well, what do you want to be? Oh, it's social media coordinator, it's podcast developer. And so there's so many other creative occupations as you know, that could use this kind of advice. So I think my next edition will be the Feisty Freelancer for Other Media and for, and just a broader picture because I feel like there's a lot more in common to what we do as freelancers as self employed people than there is different between the different creative arts that we're pursuing. So I think one of my goals in the book was to really reassure people that they could do it. And then in terms of the deciding whether they could or couldn't, it's more of a taste, a sense of like preference and what you feel you can handle in your own life or what your family and loved ones can handle, that kind of thing, what your extended circle can accept as the good and the bad of freelancing. And so in my first chapter I really dig into what the kind of mindset that you need to have, the kind of willingness to have bumps or quiet periods along the way. I include an exercise to really think out, like whether this is lifestyle for you. It's a lot of positives, as I mentioned off the top in terms of that flexibility, but on the downside is that you can have a quiet period. Right. Call it July. And I think. Right, yeah, that's right. So I think you have to be prepared for that kind of thing. And not only prepared, but you have to be proactive about it. Right? So using those times, you know, are you the kind of person who can be at your desk at 9am Are you the kind of person who, when you don't have a lot of work that week, you know, that you want to schedule things that will help your business like refreshing your client contacts or working on your website or creating some marketing that can help down the road kind of thing. So are you enough of a self starter to be able to do that? Are the people in your life who depend on you willing to go with that? And I think those are some hard questions that you ask yourself. And I feel like, you know, people would think reading the book, oh, Sue's going to suggest that I just jump right into freelancing. And I don't, I'm like, try it out a bit, you know, like maybe take a short leave from work and try it out for a month or do it part time until you feel really comfortable kind of thing. There's lots of ways to get into it other than the push that I got when I was laid off. But it was like it was a good thing for me, but it's not for everybody. So just kind of knowing yourself, I think can be key to figuring out whether you can be that feisty freelancer.
- [11:32]
Rob Marsh
And as you've looked across, you know, your students that have done this, other freelancers, you know, you've been around this world for quite a while. Is there a character trait or two that really stand out for those people who make this work? Things that maybe they're willing to do that others aren't, that. Yeah. Lead to success.
- [11:54]
Sue Bowness
Well, I use the word feisty and people have said, sue, you're not particularly a feisty person in person. But I'm like, I actually look it up in the dictionary and as being like somebody who's really resilient and persistent. And I feel like those are two equally useful words that could describe what you need to do this. So I am in my personality and I see in other personalities somebody who doesn't give up. So I get rejected a lot. Right. Being a freelancer, I'm applying for a lot of like, requests for proposals and different opportunities. I'm identifying, you know, those hidden job market where I think, boy, their website is lousy. I bet they could use a communicator in there and, and reaching out to them. Right. So I think somebody who's able to both be proactive in terms of finding those opportunities within their niche and then people who can also, when they get those no's, pick themselves up off the floor, cry about it just a little bit and then get on with it. Right. Figuring out what's the next thing I can do. Really prioritizing both what you do in terms of making the most of your time and then also trying to have lots of irons in the fire, pursuing lots of different possibilities.
- [13:11]
Rob Marsh
So let's talk about some of the sections in your book. There's an entire section about setting up a business and, you know, getting started and, you know, some really good advice there. So if somebody's going through that process, rather than talk about that stuff here, you know, I'll refer them to the book. But some of the specifics that you get into when it comes to actually creating business success include pitching. So what is your very best advice here? This is something obviously we've talked about, you know, for, for eight years on the podcast. Various copywriters, content writers who have pitched for clients and, you know, maybe they're actively pitching, maybe they pitch every once in a while as. As that flow of clients falls. But yeah, help us through this process of pitching.
- [13:58]
Sue Bowness
Well, that's interesting that you mentioned, because I'm actually in the process of pitching right now, so making sure. And this is a little bit of a quieter summertime for me, and I have a lot of clients in the education space. So in the month of August, before everybody gets back to school and is in a flurry, I am updating my contacts. I'm figuring out who is the specific person that I could reach out to or persons at a college or university and just making contact with them. So, like, whether it be a cold contact and you'd be surprised, like, it's a fairly low return, but it is a return in terms of finding those clients actively. So I am writing them a letter of introduction, something that's friendly, that shows my. My writing style, that provides a sense of what I can do for them and that shares some of my previous writing experience. So I use that myself as a standard and I recommend it. And I include some samples in the book in terms of how to reach out to clients and pitch them. And, you know, these days with using templates and using email, strategically I think we can make it less painful than in the past. But it is a lot of work to pull those contacts together. But it does work in terms of, you know, looking for new clients and really getting yourself out there and then to complement that, having a public presence on some social media. You know, I try to be on LinkedIn at least once a week giving, giving some advice about writing, just being present, trying to connect with other people and so making sure you look active, your website's updated, all of those things that, you know, when somebody goes online, which is the next step after you've pitched Then they see an active public presence, they see an updated website that looks nice, that kind of thing. So you look like a professional. So looking professional and then not just sitting there and waiting for the clients to come, but going out there and getting the clients, I think is the most useful way to use pitching to let everybody know that you're looking for work, to connect with your own network and past clients and colleagues. And that kind of thing, even down to putting your email signature, that you have your latest clips, or that you're looking for work kind of thing, I think can be all elements that are part of the pitch process and help. And maybe not help like this minute, but I'm working for clients right now, where I've been maybe reaching out to them every six months for a couple years, and they didn't need me a couple of years ago, but now they do, and now they're a client. So I think it's a long game, but it's worth it.
- [16:40]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, the interesting thing here, I think for me is less about the actual template that, you know, we might use or whatever, but it's really about how do we identify the right people to reach out to. Because if you're talking to the wrong person, it's always going to be a no. If you're making the wrong offer, it's always going to be a no. But finding the right person who needs the thing that you offer, that's really the challenge. And if you crack that, that feels like you're halfway to getting that project success. So when you go out looking for those clients, I know you write a lot in the education space, although you write in various different niches. What are you looking for as far as who to pitch before you even sit down to write that pitch?
- [17:26]
Sue Bowness
That's such a good question because sometimes it's a little bit different. But generally I'm looking out for a title of director of Communications or director of marketing and Communications, or sometimes communications manager. And here's where it varies between different organizations. And that's different from. For example, I'm working in sort of an institutional space, regardless of whether it's a university or I have some government clients or some nonprofit clients, they have that kind of tiered structure of having a director of communications and then a team beneath. If you're working looking for clients in a business space. Right. You might be looking out for the marketing director or maybe even the one marketing person within a small business kind of thing. So just making sure that you're identifying that right person and tailoring Obviously, but sometimes it's not obvious to my students. For example, using their name, spelling their name. Right. And looking on things, looking at ways that you can personalize as much as possible the communications that you're sending out to those potential clients. So for example, I always, when we do this exercise with my students, I have them go and take a close look at the website of the organization that they're targeting and note what are the communications that they have. Could you use, could you refer to that, you know, oh, your blog about what their blog is about or their, you know, I notice you produce an annual report. I notice you produce impact reports, that kind of thing. And referring specifically to their marketing can be useful ways of showing you're familiar with the organization. Subscribe to their newsletters. Right. Why wouldn't you expect them to be interested in you if you're not interested enough in them? Right. So making sure that you try to make those connections, people say to follow them on social and that kind of thing, that can also be a useful way to connect. But just tailoring and personalizing it and then, you know, doing a polite follow up. I always think of like, how would I want to be followed up with? And actually when people say like cold marketing or cold pitching is kind of icky, I'm always like, well, try to think of it in the way that would. I want to have somebody reaching out to me who is ID is a good writer, who is ideal for their market and knows their market. And maybe they're swamped and like, maybe that person can give them a better way to manage their time to move ahead with the project internally that they wanted to move ahead with. Right. So I think if I flip it a little bit and think how much help I could be to them, then I feel less of the ache factor and I feel like more of a helper factor. And I don't get it that often, but every once in a while I get a note back that says, thank you so much for reaching out. Because, like, I really needed somebody. Maybe not now, but maybe in six months kind of thing. And. And I feel like that's genuine. So I think it's a real service that you can be doing to people if you do it in the right way.
- [20:21]
Rob Marsh
I think that mindset is really critical because if you are reaching out because you have something that helps your potential client, a no or a not yet feels a lot different than, you know, if you're, if you're reaching out, you know, with hope or in desperation. Yeah. I think it can Make a huge difference.
- [20:41]
Sue Bowness
Absolutely. And I feel like I'm a pretty cheerful, positive person, and I think I can convey that energy in whatever communications that I have, whatever meetings that I have. And so just being a helper, right? How can I help? How can I do this and that? And if it, if it's a no, no, you can't help right now. Okay. You know, I'm fine. And if it's like, no, go away, I'm like, like, fine, you're off my list. You know, next kind of thing, right. We just move on to the next person who you could help. So I think it's useful to think that way.
- [21:13]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. Having building that thick skin for rejection is, I guess, the other side of this willingness to go out there. And I think this is where a lot of us get hung up because those no's do sting. Being turned down, especially for a project that you really want to work on or that you're excited about or a client that you think you could really help. Help it feel. It can feel really personal. And I, you are so good at just letting you know, just, okay, turn my back and, you know, I'll move on. Maybe I'll come back in a year or so and double check with you. But yeah, how did you develop that mindset?
- [21:48]
Sue Bowness
I think just again, putting myself in their shoes. Like, are they really deciding that they hate Sue Bowness? No, they're not. Are they really thinking like, oh, sue, is. Is a problem, why is she called? No, they're not. Because I'm not calling them you without, without reason or without limits kind of thing. I'm being respectful of their time. And so I feel like it's not personal. It's like they really don't need me at the time. And so I'm, I'm being as polite as I can in an email to them or outreach to them. And like, if they don't need me, that's. That's fine. So putting myself in their place, I think, you know what, they're busy. Maybe they don't have a budget. Right. Like, I try to think of all the reasons why they could be turning me down that have nothing to do with me. Maybe I don't have the, the experience that they're specifically looking for. That's fine. Like, maybe I'm not for, you know, not for everybody kind of thing. Right. So I have to find the people who are my people. Right. You know, I find that, you know, with the book as well, it's like, not everybody's going to read the feisty freelancer. Not everybody needs it, Right. If there's somebody who's like 10 years into their business, maybe they don't need it kind of thing. But as I look to find my reader, that's who I'm trying to find, identify that person that works for me. That's the same thing as clients, you know, So I try to just. And it is a lot of self talk, I have to say. It's a lot of self talk to be like, every day when you get that stingy rejection, you're like, I go through this with myself. I'm like, okay, sue, now what do we remember? Okay, we remember, like, it's not you. It's like, they probably have no budget. They probably have, like. I'm constantly telling myself and reminding myself of these things because, yeah, otherwise you'd be, like, on the floor in a puddle. And so that's not useful for, like, paying my rent kind of thing. So I need to make sure that I. Yeah, I'm doing that kind of positive self talk and taking a break. You know, just like, if I've had a day in which I've, you know, had some rejection or whatever, go for a walk, you know, like, try to do things that remind you, like, you have a whole life, not just this part of the life. And like, you're also, you know, can. It's okay to be, like, down about something and then sort of as long as you pick yourself back up.
- [23:57]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because I think sometimes people do hear us talking about, oh, yeah, you just have to shrug it off or whatever. And even though on the outside it looks easy. Yeah. Still having to go through that mental exercise. Okay. It's not personal. They're not ready yet. They don't have budget. It's not, you know, I'm not talking to the right person. Maybe my offer is not a fit, whatever those reasons, just to walk that, walk through that and then say, okay, who's up next? You know, in some ways, I haven't really used a lot of sports analogies over the, you know, the decade of this podcast, but in some ways, it's like, you know, the football team or the basketball team or the hockey team. You know, if somebody goes down and can't play, the next person has to come out and take the field. And it's the same with clients. That client's not ready to play with you. You've got to, you know, bring in the next one or the next one after that.
- [24:49]
Sue Bowness
Absolutely. And I think I Got schooled a little bit in the journalism that I did mostly at the beginning. Because if you want to look for a place for rejection, even more so it's journalism because there's so many people competing to have that one feature in the magazine. Right. And they only have like maybe three spots a month or maybe they're every other month. And so like there's very few spots for actually you to get into. So sometimes you can have a pitch that you think is awesome. And it's even more crushing when you're like, put some time into an idea and you like, awesome pitch gets nowhere and you think what happened? You know, and, and so I think that doing that over and over again really prepared me for. Clients are easier in some ways because there, there is like a range of clients. I don't find a client at this college, I'm going to go and look at another college, there's lots more potential. Whereas like journalism, there is, you know, only so many magazines that you can go after. And so it's even more so that being the challenge. And. But yeah, rejection is hard wherever, but you just have to keep going. And I mean, eyes on the prize of this whole thing that we started talking about and flexibility and fun and all that. And you know, having a writing business, we get to write every day.
- [26:00]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. And you mentioned follow up, which is a big part of it, especially if like you, you know, where you're writing content, you've only got so many potential magazines to pitch. Obviously being told no once doesn't mean being told forever. But being willing to go back with another idea or, you know, another opportunity over and over and over becomes really important.
- [26:23]
Sue Bowness
Yeah, for sure. I think that, that persistence can be really useful as a, as an entrepreneur just to keep figuring out new ways to move your business.
- [26:34]
Rob Marsh
So along with the chapter on pitching, you have a chapter in the book that's really about finding and working with corporate clients. What's the difference and why break them out?
- [26:43]
Sue Bowness
I think in terms of pitching, it is that specific beast that you are trying to deal with in magazines and publishing. And your competition is really specific. And so I find it actually is to me more of a challenge to get a piece into a magazine, especially a consumer publication, a little bit easier with a trade publication or writing for business to business magazines. But just I think like in that case the, the big thing is the story idea. Right. So it's like if you come up with story idea that happens to be like, you know, if I'm pitching AI, it's gotta Be a really specific angle these days because all those stories have been written. So like coming up with that winning idea, that's almost more of like, you know, you think you have a great idea and it turns out four other people had that great idea at the same time. So it's even more competitive that way. And so you really focusing on how to find the idea, describe the idea and make sure it's a fit with the magazine that you're trying to pitch. Whereas with the corporate outreach, it's really trying to describe how you're a fit with the client. And so for that, I lean on myself and my previous experience and I tell my students, lean on your enthusiasm. If you don't have like a lot of clips in your, in your niche, that kind of thing, but you're a really passionate yoga student. Student, then like if you're pitching yoga studios, go with your passion, right? Tell them that you've been studying for five years and you do yoga three times a week and that kind of thing. Like, there's ways I think you can try to connect with clients in that way, but you're selling yourself, your interest or your experience. Now at this point, doing a lot of communications for colleges and universities, I'm have a lot of clips to rely on. I have a lot of projects to refer to in terms of sending them samples. And people like to hire for better, for worse, for things that you've already done. Like, they want to hire the person who's already done all the things that they want to have done. Right. So the closer you can get to that, I find the better. And so once you have clips in a niche, it can be really useful to say, you know what you're looking for. A series of blog posts profiling professors and their research. Here's a series that I did for another university a year ago. And so to have that, that is quite useful to. To your outreach process.
- [29:05]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I like that. Let's also talk about marketing your business. This is a big chunk of the book you earlier you mentioned. You know, as part of pitching, you want to have a professional website. You want to be out there on social media so that people can see you. But this, again, this is really hard, especially when we are doing work for clients that may, you know, pitching that takes up a good chunk of the day. And there's not always a lot of time left over to market our own businesses. Which is why so many of us joke about the shoemaker's children have no shoes, the copywriter's website has bad Copy. The direct response writer doesn't have a call to action. The content writer doesn't have enough content. So, yeah, let's talk about marketing.
- [29:50]
Sue Bowness
Yeah, it's interesting the way that marketing has evolved and changed, right. I started my business before social media and before that became a whole thing. So I've always been thinking, like, how do you connect and how do you put a presence out there? And I guess that's why I'm still addicted to the idea of websites. Every time I have a new big project, including this book, I create a new website around it. And I just really consider that to be like the hub. And also in these days of like both SEO, I suppose, but more so like authoritative content on myself or my products. I'm like, I want the website for the feisty freelancer to be the place that everybody knows that they can go. So I, I like to use marketing tools like a website and then just use it everywhere. You know, I'm always using, when I'm pitching, I'm always using my website as a destination to send people to verify that I can write something. I'm always using those as cores. Now I even acknowledge in the book, like, not everybody is as website crazy as I am, and I think I make a good argument for a website. But these days I've met people who only have a LinkedIn profile and if that's, that's what you want to use, that's fine. Like, just make sure it's updated and, and that you're using it proactively. I think everywhere that you can be, probably choose, you know, one or two social media platforms that you can do well and focus on those. And then just again, I find social media hard because I, I don't. I'm not a particularly extroverted person. I'm an introvert. I don't, like, have a very visual or public life. I'm a pretty private person. So the idea of like going out there and saying something every day is just kind of exhausting to me. But I know and recognize it's an important part of what we do, right? So when I'm putting stuff out there, I try to think, okay, how can I make a minimum viable schedule and get things out there? And I know it's important. So I try to post, you know, regularly on LinkedIn. For example, I got onto Instagram probably too late later than I should have, but I was like, come on, sue, you gotta get, get onto this platform that is clearly becoming the central platform. And just thinking like, okay, I have to use these platforms. How can I do it? And how can I like be participating? Right. And so that is one thing I struggle with myself. Just trying to be engaged all the time on social media because of the time suck. Right. It's like really hard to make the time for that. But I think actively scheduling it into your calendar can be helpful. That's the question I ask other people. I'm like, when, when I see somebody super prolific on social media, how do you do it? How do you find the time? You must be exhausted all the. Right. And I think it comes more naturally to other people, but it can be really hard to balance. So I try to, for me, I try to market through the website, through a couple of social channels and, and try to persist as much as I can and then not worry about the rest.
- [32:44]
Rob Marsh
Yeah. When we think about the mission of marketing and the whole reason that we do it is that, you know, it's basically pre selling, so that when somebody comes into your world and starts to engage with you or they join your email list or start on social media or doing any of those things, what it does is it builds that trust early on. It shows your skill set. It shows maybe assuming that we're doing it properly, it shows those successes you've had with previous clients and then people show up ready to buy. And what's really interesting to me is, and I struggle with this too, we don't put enough time into marketing and then we end up having to pitch, which is literally doing marketing one on one instead of, you know, to a wider world and letting people come into our world. And so, you know, your argument that we should be booking time into the calendar here for some of these activities I think is really important.
- [33:39]
Sue Bowness
Yeah, I think it's a nerdy way of thinking of it for myself because I, I dislike it so much that I have to actually schedule time. So it feels like scheduling social time in. Okay, it's time to be, be, have fun with other people and put it into your calendar. But like, if that's the way you got to get it done, you know, I'd much rather be like going for a walk or reading a book or something like that. But it's so important, especially these days, that you have to do it. And that's how I make it happen for me. I mean, I really admire something like the Copywriter club podcast, right. That you've been doing this output for many years and like providing. And again, I think of what you're doing is providing like a service. Right. To people by Sharing this information. Right. And so you're doing that, and it's like a great part of, like, a great reputation builder for you in terms of your authority, that kind of thing. I'd like to pursue more of that myself in terms of, you know, that's partly what I was trying to do with the book, but, like, even more so on a regular basis. Just fitting it in. I admire that you've fitted in for so many years.
- [34:43]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, thank you for saying that. And it is. I mean, there's a bit of love in it. I really enjoy talking to people about this thing that we all do, and there's no doubt that it has built my credibility in the industry and has gotten me recognition that I wouldn't have gotten any other way. But when we're talking about marketing, there are so many different approaches, and I think oftentimes we get stuck thinking, well, I need to be on LinkedIn or I need to be on Instagram. Those are, like the two that we focus on a lot. And I mean, over the years on the podcast, we've got talked about, you know, all kinds of different options, everything from, you know, podcasts or writing books to, you know, creating YouTube channels to being on Pinterest, which to me is really interesting idea, although not. Not necessarily my world. I've played around there, you know, a little bit to. To just try to see what that's like, but there's so many different ways to put ourselves out there. And I, I guess, guess this, to me, this is just such an important part of your book and an important part of freelancing, because without the marketing, everything else falls flat. If you're not doing that marketing, when you make that pitch and people don't see that you're out there, you don't have the trust. And it makes everything just so much harder.
- [35:56]
Sue Bowness
It's true. When you go to a provider, you know, whatever you're, you know, needing in your life. For example, I was looking for a cat sitter, for example, if they don't have a good website or if you're looking for, like, a contractor, right. And they don't have, like, at least some kind of presence. And especially, I mean, it makes more of a difference depending on the niche that you're in. But if you don't have good referrals, if you don't have, like, what's required comparatively and competitively with other people in your niche, like, you can really stand out in some ways by having the right marketing tools. And so I think that can be really helpful. I always think back to like when I'm looking for a service, what am I looking for? And I want to try to be that person to somebody who's looking for a writer editor and especially for writer editor in my niche of long form content.
- [36:46]
Rob Marsh
Okay, so let's switch it up just a little bit because we're talking about making time for marketing in your business or making time for pitching or whatever. Let's talk about productivity, which is another big section in your book and I think another big challenge for a lot of freelancers, whether they're copywriters or designers or, or, you know, whomever. How do we get more done in the time that we have for, for our businesses?
- [37:13]
Sue Bowness
Yeah, I think it can be really challenging sometimes. And it's sort of. I read a good article recently about different seasons of your life being more productive and, and less and just seeing, you know, what can I do today? What can I do this week? So I think planning is a great way to do it. I think scheduling regular time for your workday is really useful. I talk in the book. I structure my day, how I schedule my day. I try to make it to my desk. I'm a nine to fiver because that's when my editors and clients are at their desk. So I try to do a nine to five day, be at my desk by nine, quit by five if I can, and then come back to work because it's also workaholism is a problem for me. I could just be here at my desk and that would be leading to burnout. So I'm like, okay, at least take a break from my desk and if I need to come back, do it after that. I try to structure, I try to do batching within my day and week. So for example, example, I will not just write one blog post at a time, one blog post a week kind of thing. If I have a summer quiet time, I will write my six blog posts for the next six months kind of thing, right? And I'll batch them even from batching, the writing process, you know, the crappy first drafts as they say. And then I'll batch the editing process, editing, and then I'll batch the SEO development process, putting them into my website, for example. So all of those things I try to, so I'm not task switching all the time between different tasks. So for me, the, the content production is one of those big things that I batch, but also things like invoicing or you know, business outreach, business development activities. I try to do that on a quiet Friday afternoon Kind of thing, you know, like make the time for that and just sort of again, schedule it into my calendar whenever I can that I need know I to need, need to do this kind of thing. I have like a running to do list and looking for times and places to fit it in and keep it moving. So I find that's one of my best ways to be productive. And then, you know, just looking every day at what are my most important tasks, what are the tasks that would a. That have to get done, that are deadlines, story deadlines, and then also what are the things that would make the most difference to my business in terms of moving it forward.
- [39:31]
Rob Marsh
Do you have a favorite tool that you use for any of this? You know, whether it's a journal or some kind of software that helps you be more productive?
- [39:39]
Sue Bowness
I think just my calendar, you know, making sure that I'm scheduling things. I'm a forgetful person, so I need a lot of reminders in my calendar and then to. I guess I use like a scheduling tool like project management, but I use it just for myself to list all my projects out. So I. I know where I'm at with each one and I put them into columns of, you know, projects started, first draft done, second draft done in approvals kind of thing, so that I know where everything is at at the same time. And that also just takes some. The like gives me some reassurance and takes the worry out of. I know that if I'm wondering about a project or have I forgotten about a project, I just look and say as a calendar, I'm like, oh, there it is. Okay. Okay. So that, that helps with like some of the, Some of the stuff is mental space in your head. Have I done this? Where am I at with this kind of thing? Right. And when. If you have that solution, then you know exactly where you're at with it and you. Exactly what you can do next.
- [40:39]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, I. I mean, it's never about the tools, but sometimes there are those tools that help you be more effective. I tend to run off of a to do list and in my calendar, you know, those, those two things. So it sounds like you and I have a very similar process us for that. Okay. One of my favorite things about your book is at the end, you've included a bunch of interviews with freelancers and asked them a variety of questions. I'm curious if you have any favorites and you know, what you learned just from those freelancers and what they were sharing in their stories.
- [41:12]
Sue Bowness
Yeah. Including an interview with you, Rob. So everybody should go and check it out.
- [41:19]
Rob Marsh
To mention mine specifically.
- [41:23]
Sue Bowness
I'm proud that I got Rob Marsh as an interview in the book. So just pointing to that. Yeah, it was great. You know what I wanted to do with that is I mentioned that I had written this as an ebook for my class. And then I thought, this is one perspective on freelancing from somebody who does a very specific type of freelancing. Focus on content, focus on long form. I mostly write for print and that kind of thing. So I thought, how could I expand it to voices beyond myself? And so when I was pitching it to my publisher, I had said I wanted to include it. And they were also really on board with that, you know, because, like, they wanted to have voices that were younger and voices that were in different spaces and then voices that were, you know, different. Like all the variety that is out there. And I don't know if I achieved that full thing, but I tried to include people from very different areas. And that's what I like about the, the Q and A at the end is that I do have people from each, from different. Who do different skills. Right. So I, I interviewed for, for example, somebody who lives on the west coast of Canada and does mainly editing. And so that's not me. I do main. Mostly writing or 50, 50 writing and editing, but she does mostly editing. She lives in a different place, not in the center of Canada. And. And so her experience is naturally different. I interviewed somebody who's a YouTuber, right? Who is her experiences coming up through that channel. And her main workday looks quite different than mine. You know, she gets a lot of brand sponsorships, she has a couple of different businesses, that kind of thing. So what does that version of freelancing look like at the same time? What are the commonalities in so many cases? I heard echoes of my own advice there and I was like, yes, because like, in the experiences as a teacher, I. I will often invite guest speakers into my class and there's nobody to echo your advice quite like a guest speaker and so like I, at the end of my speaker's time in my class, I'll have the students say, oh, did you hear that? The guest speaker said X? And I'd be like, I've been saying X all term. And yet when they hear it from somebody else, it really confirms something. So both for the difference from my experience and then for the sameness in the freelance experience, I thought the Q and A was a really fun and valuable addition to the book.
- [43:42]
Rob Marsh
There's a joke in the corporate world about hiring consultants to say what, you know, the manager is saying, so the CEO will hear, you know, because the outside perspective is always more valuable than the inside perspective. It's foolish, but it's real. And so, yeah, having. Having those interviews and seeing the various perspectives in some way, it's like a written form of, like this podcast, right, where we are talking to so many different people and everybody has. Has not necessarily different processes or different platforms, but everybody has different ways that they use them and mix them and present them. And so it's. It's always useful, you know, from an ideas perspective, to see how other people are doing it. And that I actually think that's one of the most brilliant things about this book, is those interviews, because you can learn so much from looking at other people who've done the same thing that we want to do.
- [44:36]
Sue Bowness
Yeah. And to be honest, I'm sure you must find this with this podcast, like, to be able to talk to your peers and sometimes the people that you admire who are further ahead than you and, like, learn from them, just one to one, is really a privilege. And so I really enjoyed being able to talk to them. And then I also got some good ideas that I immediately went and implemented in my own business.
- [44:58]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, it's. It's great. Okay, let's talk a little bit about the process of writing a book. A few weeks ago, we interviewed. Interviewed Lacy Leifers about writing books. We've talked to probably a half a dozen book coaches or authors who have talked about the same subject. But I'm curious about your approach. When you sat down and thought, okay, I need this book for my class, what were the steps? Did you immediately start with the list of things I need to include or what did that whole process look like?
- [45:28]
Sue Bowness
I guess I was lucky in that I had a couple of test runs in doing a book, the first being my PhD thesis, which is around 300 pages. And it was like an exercise in how to organize a big text full of thoughts. So in that case, like, I, you know, had to think through, like, what are the chapters, what are the sections, and that kind of thing. And then I actually, a few years ago, I ghostwrote a book and so had the same experience with a subject that I wasn't as familiar with. So by the time I'm doing a subject that I'm totally familiar with, freelancing and writing, then I'm able to do the same process, basically, with the, with the ebook that I wrote for class, it was basically spill brain on page kind of thing. So I was like, really driven by answering these questions that my students were asking and thinking, like, what are the things that they need to know in this class? So in writing that first draft, I think is a little bit rougher, but I did think about, okay, I need to tell them about how to start a business. Okay, it's almost like units in a class, right? How to start a business. I need to tell them about pitching. I need to do a unit on how to get corporate clients. I need to do unit on marketing. So for each of those. And then I thought, what do I know about each of these topics? Right? So kind of like a brain dump about what do I know about marketing? Okay, what do I do in my own business about marketing kind of thing. So like, step by step, I just like poured out different chapters and ideas. And then, you know, as you're writing the book, then the process gets into the editing, what do I cut, what do I keep? And that kind of thing. Moving the book forward into something that is readable and usable and useful. And then when I was creating the book for the publisher, I had already pitched to expand it with the Q&As. That had always been something I've been interested in doing. Is like having a voice beyond my own in the book. But also, like, in that case, we. We thought about what I thought about myself and included in my book proposal what are extra chapters that I conclude. But then I also said to my publisher, publisher, what would you like to know? What are other chapters that you thought would be interesting? And. And so some of the chapters came out of that part of writing the book. So for example, the productivity chapter, we both agreed were was an important thing to include the AI chapter at the end. We were like, you can't write a book these days about writing without including that. And I was like terrified to write it, but I was, yes, yes, we have to. And you know, so it started with that kernel and that brain dump and then grew from there and got refined from there with the help from the publisher.
- [48:00]
Rob Marsh
And so many people publish books on their own just using Amazon or whatever, but you actually had this professionally published with an actual publisher, your professional editors, all of that route. Why do it that way?
- [48:14]
Sue Bowness
Because I wanted to as a writer. I wanted to. It was challenging and to find a publisher, you know, I had, again, talking of rejection, but I'm used to that as a freelancer. I was rejected by several publishers, you know, that I sent it to. And again, not sure why or how, but I got an offer from A publisher. And then I approached a couple of other publishers that I had not heard from and I got another offer from the publisher I ended up going with. And so I really wanted to. I think the advantage of a publisher is that they already have that network developed of, you know, distribution and putting the book in stores, having that marketing support and that kind of thing. And I also wanted to develop a relationship with a publisher. I'd be interested in publishing more books, both nonfiction and fiction. And so to start exploring that world and dealing with how difficult it is, that kind of thing was also part of my goal just to get a well published book. And then, you know, the support in terms of like the editing that you get is really useful, you know, very thorough and vigorous and that kind of thing. So I think that, I mean, I think anybody who is self publishing a book today would be very wise and certainly I would too, to, you know, get a proper edit done on it and get proper cover design and layout and stuff like that. So it was, it was something I've always wanted to do and yeah, I'm glad it happened.
- [49:45]
Rob Marsh
And I guess one of the other benefits is it's not just available on Amazon, but it is in a few bookstores and you know, it's. It's out there where in the real world where people can find it on the their own.
- [49:57]
Sue Bowness
Absolutely. So it's, it's nice to have that and to have the publisher promoting it and that kind of thing is. Is really useful. I have to say. Self publishing has become such a long way that it has certainly something that I, you know, not something that I would reject or, or for any future publishing, I would consider it again. But I'm glad to have the support that I did for the book.
- [50:23]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, well, it's a good book, a great book. I'm holding it up. People won't be able to see this in their earphones, but I think it's a great addition. Along with the handful of other books on building your own copywriting business or consulting that most freelancers grab a hold of. They should be adding it to their shelves and you can find it on Amazon, I think. But where else can they go? Sue to get it or to find more information out about this spot? The feisty freelancer.
- [50:53]
Sue Bowness
Well, because I'm a website nerd, I created a website about it and that's where I'm updating everything to do with the book. So the website is feisty freelancer.com and you can go there. I put anything about any readings that I'M doing or talks about the book and I have a Instagram for the book specifically. So you want to follow the book's journey. It's Feisty Freelancer book on Instagram so those are the two main places that I'm updating with with the book.
- [51:21]
Rob Marsh
Awesome. So if you do buy the book, like grab a photo of it, post it on Instagram, tag Feisty FreelancerBook so that sue can spread your photo around the Internet too.
- [51:33]
Sue Bowness
That'd be awesome.
- [51:34]
Rob Marsh
Yeah, awesome. Thanks Sue. I appreciate you coming back just to share about what you've been doing lately in this book, which I think is a great addition to my library. So thanks.
- [51:45]
Sue Bowness
Thanks very much. Appreciate being care.
- [51:52]
Rob Marsh
Thanks Sue Bowness for sharing the concepts that she's written about in her book the Feisty Freelancer. You can learn more about the book and sue@feistyfreelancer.com you can sign up for Sue's newsletter there and check out her course that helps take the concepts from the book and make them a reality. I recommend this book. It has a ton of useful advice for anyone who wants to be a freelancer. Be sure to check out the interviews at the end too. They're a lot like printed versions of this podcast podcast where various freelancers share their insights and experiences about freelancing. Another place to find good resources to help you as a freelancer is the Copywriter Underground. There are workshops on finding clients, pitching discovery calls, using diagnostic tools like a scorecard to get clients to say yes to working with you, workshops on copywriting, AI, voice, and so much more. Check them all out@thecopywriterclub.com TCU2 and if you if you want templates, workshops, and other resources to help you find clients, visit TheCopyWriterClub.com P7 to get those tools for your business. P7 has the tools to make sure your prospecting ends with clients instead of disappointment. That's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know. If you don't know another writer or freelancer who you can share it with, visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcasts and leave a review. I really appreciate it when you do that. If you haven't left a review before, now's the time. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends will thank you. They might love you just a little bit more. I'll see you next week.
- [53:41]
Sue Bowness
Ever wonder why most teen period products look like they were designed by people who've never met an actual teenager. Yeah, that's what we were thinking too. We're nyx, North America's number one leak proof underwear brand and we created KT by nyx, the first period brand designed specifically for teens. We've studied how teens really move from sports to sleepovers, from lounging to creating viral dance videos and designed period underwear, swimwear and activewear that work where teens need them most. With KT you get the comfort and protection of nyx's award winning technology in styles and designs made just for teens. No more products that feel like afterthoughts. No more changing plans because of a heavy day. No more sitting on the sidelines when periods show up because your teen's period protection deserves to be as unique and thoughtfully designed as they are right now. Get your teen a back to school period emergency kit. A backpack or locker must have kit so they're prepared for periods no matter what now@nixteen.com knixteen.com.