← The Copywriter Club Podcast
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- [00:00]
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Cap apply if you're a copywriter who wants more input into the work that you do and more money for contributing your insights early, keep listening. This is the Copywriter Club Podcast Foreign Far too many copywriters are content taking an assignment from a client and simply writing the words. In fact, there are thousands of copywriters and content writers who think that's what copywriting is choosing the right words to make a client sound good. They even call themselves wordsmiths, as if all all they're doing is coming up with the words. Now obviously, writing the words is a big part of what we do as copywriters. Often it's the only obvious part of a project that we can point to and say, that's my work. But great copywriters don't start with writing words. They get involved in their clients projects much earlier in the process, before design direction is figured out, before the brand voice is settled, even before a client decides what exactly they need to solve the marketing problem they have. This is where copywriters should start on a project. That work is strategy, deep diving on the problem to be solved and exploring the various ways to find a solution, some of which might not even be copywriting focused. Okay, so how do you do it? My guest for this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast is Jamie Thompson. Jamie takes his clients from a discovery call to a paid workshop to a project in a process that immediately puts him in charge of driving the strategy for that project. It's a process that makes him significantly more valuable and critical to the success of a project than simply taking a project from a client and writing the copy. What's more, because Jamie plays such an important role in his projects and his impact is obvious to his clients, they often come back for even more work, which takes the pressure off of client finding and allows him to spend more time client serving. In the age of AI, when machines can write copy faster than you can. And yes, I know it's probably not as good as you can write, but can your clients actually tell the difference? So in the age of AI, this is one strategy that makes you more valuable as a copywriter who solves problems and gets paid to do it. If that sounds interesting to you, then stick around because you're going to like this episode. And if that doesn't sound interesting to you? Maybe Jamie's soothing Scottish accent will be enough to keep you engaged. That certainly works for me. No matter what kind of copywriting business you want for yourself, though, the Copywriter Underground is packed with resources to show up as a business owner and not just a freelancer to help you find clients and solve big problems. That clients are happy to pay big money to get off their plates. From copywriting and business templates to get you started, including a legal document and a proven onboarding process to workshops that help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy, how to be more strategic, and a lot more the Underground is like a starter kit for your writing business. It's a complete business in a box that you can plug into your own business and hit play as questions come up. You have access to our private Slack community. You have monthly group coaching and regular feedback on your copy. I've been inside a lot of memberships and the Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters that I've ever seen. You can learn more by visiting TheCopyWriterClub.com TCU2 and now my interview with Jamie Thompson. Foreign Jamie, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to get to know a bit more about your business and how you approach all of the things that copywriters do. Just thrilled to have you here.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah, thanks very much for, for the invite, Rob. I've been a big fan of the show since it launched. Pretty much this is my first appearance. So yeah, thank you for having me.
- [04:19]
B
I'm thrilled to have you here. So let's, let's talk about how did you become a copywriter?
- [04:24]
A
So my background is actually in freelance journalism. I while I was still studying at university I was working as a freelance journalist with various different publications all over Scotland. And at the time when it came to graduate, Johnson Press, who are like the biggest employer of journalists in Scotland, started letting a lot of people go. And it was also kind of during the sort of the rise in social media so the timing wasn't great. So I never made that into like a full time profession and started working various different jobs and I actually started like a side project and it was a website in the education space and essentially it was like a tutor student matching service. And and actually the surprising thing that came from that was that people were getting in touch with me to say that they really liked the content that I was putting out and they asked me if I would write for their business and I suddenly discovered the world of copywriting. I honestly hadn't even heard the term. And this was back in 2011 and I suddenly realized that people would pay me to write for them. And then a few months after that, I had sort of developed a client base and decided to make it an official business. Brand new copy was born and the rest, I guess is history.
- [05:55]
B
Yeah, that's an amazing start to go from a business idea to coming into copywriting. Although I don't think it's that unusual. There's so many people that start writing about their own stuff and find that they can actually write. Obviously you knew you could write because you were in a journalism program and writing, you know, that kind of content. But how, how did you start to connect with clients at that beginning part of your business? Which is still, I think, the biggest challenge that most copywriters face today.
- [06:27]
A
Yeah, so I guess I was a bit of an anomaly and that clients actually started coming to me from the beginning as a result of the stuff that I was putting out unknowingly. But once I had like a sort of business up and running, like I realized there is such a thing as a client pipeline and you need to attract them. So I kind of had like a two tier approach. Like I, I was like quite focused on inbound marketing. Like, it just really suits my like personality. Like, I'm quite introverted. I don't really like the idea of like cold outreach, even though it is very effective. So inbound market and was really where I started. So like doing the whole SEO thing, putting out good content and of course it's a slow burner. But through time I found that clients started to come to me. But up until that became effective and I was reaching out to agencies. So a lot of creative agencies in Scotland and actually one of the first ones that I actually contacted was a company called Mearns and Gill who are based in Aberdeen. And I believe that they're actually the oldest advertising agency in the UK. They were, I think they were established in 1936. So I reached out to them and they asked me to come in for a chat and they sort of gave me the offer of being able to use their space so I could like do my own client work in their office. And if they needed me for projects, then they would get me involved and they would pay me for doing it. So it was really like a dream scenario and that I got all the experience of an agency while also building my own business on the side and getting paid by them for the, the projects that I was working on for the agency. So a combination of that contacting agencies and then slow burn. Inbound marketing is how I found my first clients and it's kind of how I continue to find them. Like I'm fortunate enough that the inbound strategists continue to work and so clients usually come to me and I'm able to pick and choose the projects that I find interesting or the ones I think I can actually add some value to.
- [08:46]
B
Talk a little bit more about inbound strategies for finding work because I this in some ways is like the silver bullet that so many copywriters are looking for. They want to post on LinkedIn or wherever and have clients find them and yet we struggle to do that. So many of us do. Clearly it works. So yeah, what kind of content are you posting, where are you posting it, where are you sharing it and how are people finding you?
- [09:11]
A
Yeah, so my number one channel for finding clients is Google. Despite the shake up that we've had with like AI mode and AI overviews, at least up until this point it has been Google. Maybe one of the more unusual things about the way that I've built my business is that I haven't used social media at all really. It's only maybe the last year or so that I've started to embrace LinkedIn because I have a few assets now like a copywriting course, etc. But up until that point I didn't really use social media at all and just kind of trusted the process of, you know, creating very specific landing pages for the niches that I tend to focus on. So like I primarily write for technology SaaS, education sector stuff. So like I have dedicated sector specific pages on my website and I create content around those niches essentially like solving the problems of businesses in those industries who are specifically looking for a copyright or I guess that's a classic like funneling system. And so yeah, sector specific pages and yeah, putting out good content regularly. Keyword research, like essentially applying all the sort of like organic SEO techniques that you would expect a company to apply. And that has been my strategy from 2011 and it continues to be today. Of course like the future's a bit of an unknown but I think evolution is the key. You've got to adapt, you know, you've got to keep on top of trends and adapt. And yeah, it is a nice position to be in because I don't have to pitch like quite often I'm asked to tender for things and you know that you're up against other co creators but if it's an interesting project. I'll tender for it. But generally speaking I don't do much cold pitching. I don't really have to reach out to agencies and clients anymore, which is nice.
- [11:24]
B
Yeah, that's incredibly nice. So talk a little bit about your sales calls and that conversation that you have have. Obviously people are coming to you somewhat pre sold because they've seen your content, they've been on the landing page, they're reaching out to find out how you can help them. What does that conversation look like?
- [11:44]
A
Yeah, so I, yep, I guess before the calls they, they already have an understanding of what I do because I have the information on the website, like a shop front and during actual calls I like to be in a position that I don't really have to sell the service much. So my whole approach is to be personable, be friendly and let the client do more of the talking. If you can kind of pre qualify them by having a good landing page, then they already come into you as a fairly warm lead and so you don't need to sell the concept of copywriting to them. I would say more recently in the last couple of years, um, like I'm being asked to be involved in project earlier than I maybe would have in the past. Like I think that's like a reflection of the way that copywriting or at least the, the perception of the value of copywriting is changing and that people used to think of copywriting as the, the sort of final step in the process of as like a nice add on. But actually clients are, are far more keen to have a copywriter involved from the start of a project and to get strategy from them, to get a bit of consultation to have like a workshop. And so during a client call I usually lean the conversation towards setting up a zoom call to have a workshop with them so that it can really get to the sort of core of what they're looking for. You know, get to the purpose of the copy. What is the, what are they looking to achieve from it? So that's usually how my sales calls go. I usually try and lead them towards setting up a workshop to properly establish what they want before we get to the stage of deliverables.
- [13:34]
B
I really like this idea of a strategy workshop. I've never heard anybody talk about that before. Obviously we've talked a lot about strategy and how important it is for copywriters to be involved in that. But this workshop idea like turns me on in. You know, it sort of lights that light bulb above my head and I'm thinking through, okay, with my clients. How can I use this?
- [13:56]
A
Is.
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B
So do you, is this a paid workshop or is this like time bound? Obviously you've done this enough that you probably have a bit of a structure or framework that you use on the call. Tell me more about that.
- [14:10]
A
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. I kind of have always provided a bit of strategy to clients and consultancy without really calling it that. I just kind of called it copyright. And then I think there's a lot of copywriters out there that are actually already doing it, but don't necessarily charge for it, I guess, like, interesting. Like I was, I was listening to your, one of your podcasts and recently with Kristen Vanderhoek, all about selling the concept of strategy. And her approach is kind of similar to mine actually in terms of how she frames it. But yeah, the paid strategy workshops, they're just a great way of getting buy in from the client. And the way that I tend to sell it is like a kind of like an informal, relaxed two hour zoom call. But I have pre prepared materials so like I would do a bit of like competitive research for the client, provide them with a little bit of education, you know, about the type of copy that they're looking for and give them some like insights. And throughout the workshop there's exercises. So it entirely depends on what the, the project is and what a deliverable is. But usually it involves like establishing the brand values, getting their tone of voice down. We're going through some exercises with them to help them get into that mindset so that they can get definitive answers from them before we get to the stage of okay, let's write a sales page. And yeah, it's like a paid, it's usually two and a half hours. It's a paid workshop and I send them an agenda beforehand to make sure that they're happy with what we'll cover. And they find it really, really useful because they feel that they've been involved in the project from the start rather than just outsourcing words to someone. They have more buy in and they have a bit more investment in the project and it gives you the opportunity as well to kind of really sell the value of what copywriters do. And like, one thing I notice as a result of the workshops is that by the time you're sending a first draft of a sales page, there are far less rewrites involved than there would be if they had simply outsourced a piece of writing over email. And that's because they're, well, they're bought into the process from the start, they understand your thinking behind it and they've had the opportunity to agree with it or to question it. So by the time you send the first draft, they already know what to expect and there's not going to be any surprises.
- [16:54]
B
So at the end of the workshop then, do you provide some kind of a deliverable, a roadmap or something like that?
- [17:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. So again, it depends on what the brief is, but typically the deliverable would be like a, like a messaging guide or a tone of voice guides, or a combination of the two. A tone and messaging guide, essentially kind of outlining what we spoke about on the call, but giving them like a sort of concrete document to work for. And nine times out of 10, it's something that they use internally, something that they refer to when they are then potentially posting on social media or even like sending internal emails. Like, if they have like a tone and messaging guide, it makes sure that everything's consistent. So that's the first deliverable is that kind of internal document, which also is quite a nice way of documenting the two and a half hour workshop. You can send them the recording and you can send them the slides, but I just, I feel like the sort of tangible deliverable attached to that is also like a nice kind of touch point for them. And then in addition to that, in the messaging guide or the tone of voice guide would usually then inform the copywriting that we go on to do. Like whether it's our website or a long form sales page, all the work that we've done up until that point informs that final deliverable. And it also just makes sure that you're on track as a copywriter. Make sure that you're on the right path from the, you know, from the, from the beginning. Like, I know that there can be a bit of a gap between getting a bread, getting a brief from a client and you send in the first draft. And there's always that danger that the client's going to say, do you know what this is? This is not actually what we're looking for. And holding that workshop just ensures that we're all on the same page.
- [18:49]
B
Yeah, I like that. I mean, it's, We've talked about, you know, roadmapping sessions. This is a little bit different. You know, I think you're looking into brand voice and some, you know, maybe others would call it a voice session. But going from discovery call to workshop to project feels like a really good way to inject strategic thinking from you as the copywriter into a project. Even before it gets started?
- [19:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. As a nice sort of segue into, into, you know, delivering something that's actually going to be useful to the client and is actually going to get them results. And the thing that's like overarching it is strategy, because that's essentially what you're providing. It can be tempting to get a brief from a client and jump straight into the writing because you have ideas. But ultimately, unless you have a very, very tight brief, you are just kind of guessing what you think the client wants or what, or more importantly, what you think the customer needs to hear. Whereas having a workshop and having like a sort of strategic framework, you know, around the project ultimately leads to better outcomes.
- [20:12]
B
One more question about this before we move on. Who else is on that call with you, you know, specifically from the client to ensure that you're getting all of the information that you need? Is it one on one? Are you doing this with a team from the client? How does that work?
- [20:28]
A
Yeah, it's usually three or four people would be on the call. There's usually someone from marketing. Depending on the company, sometimes a CEO is involved. If they're quite hands on, there may be like sort of the creative director as well. Three or four people is a good number for that type of workshop call anymore. And it becomes, it can, you can. The sort of. The urgency of it can get lost a little bit. When there are too many people from the same company on a call. Sometimes they can start having internal discussions about things that sometimes are useful, sometimes not. But three people on a call is great because as the sort of person leading the call, you can sort of stick to the agenda. And one thing I do, which is a great tip, is because I have a few exercises throughout the workshop, I time them. So I say, like, the whole point in this workshop is that we want to make decisions and that kind of sets the agenda. It cuts down on the small talk, should we say, or the, you know, the sort of sweat and the small stuff and it forces the people to make decisions. So I say like we have a two minute exercise. Once your two minutes is up, pencils down or think fingers off keyboards, and we'll have a brief chat about the results and then we move on to the next one. So we don't want people dwelling on what they've written and we don't want people overthinking because I think strategy is quite intangible sometimes it's one of those things that is kind of dismissed as simply thinking time. And that is part of it. But you can wrap a framework around it. And that's the purpose of the workshop. So three people, timed exercises, trying to force decisions to be made on that call. And then as the copywriter, you can go away and put all that into words in a messaging guide. And then you can give them an opportunity to give feedback. I would say eight times out of 10, there's very little revisions needed because they recognize the phrases that they have provided you with throughout the call and you've kind of refined them and they understand the thinking behind it.
- [22:54]
B
I'm trying to balance your soft spoken approach with the taskmaster role that you take on those calls. You have to keep people focused in delivering on time, you know, getting the ideas out and not wasting that time you've got set aside.
- [23:12]
A
Yeah, that's it. I think that's why like three people on a call suits me quite well because I am not a natural leader or manager. I like to be behind the scenes, hence why copywriting suits me quite well. But with these workshops, I think it just does give. It's like it's providing extra value. And because I'm the one leading it and I'm in control and I know what I'm talking about, that sort of gives you the confidence to do it. And yet, and three people to me seems manageable. So it was a team of 50, it would be a different story, right?
- [23:50]
B
Yeah. So as you go through this process, then discovery call to workshop, now you've got a project, how do you set up or structure your projects so that you're, you're know, getting things done on time, delivering what's expected, all of that.
- [24:04]
A
So I am a big fan of basically providing project milestones. So like, once, once we have like a brief in place, I'll tell the client exactly what day I will deliver which part of the project. And I pride myself on never having missed a deadline and the 12 years or so that I've been doing this. So starting off with those project milestones, it kind of gives the client a bit of peace of mind knowing that on Tuesday we're getting this page, on Thursday we're getting this page. And once we have those milestones agreed. I'm a big fan of skeleton drafts, which isn't really something that I've heard many other copywriters talking about and other copywriters probably call it other things. But to me, a skeleton draft is like a bridge between the brief and the first draft. So it's kind of like a structure. So once I know what we're looking to achieve, and we've done a bit of strategy, I then provide, like, a sort of skill and draft of the deliverable. So if it's a sales page, I would essentially outline what I would intend to say at what point in the page. And it would be mostly my thoughts and notes and maybe some external sources that I found that could be useful to link out to or any other, like, communications that the client's provided me with if they've given me core content. And I might, like, pull it into the skill and draft and won't change the wording. But we'll say we would roughly be looking to see this kind of thing at this point because just give them, like, a sort of insight into the thinking behind it. And then once I've sent that to them, that gives them the opportunity to provide me with feedback on the flow, because I think that is really important. Like, if you get the structure right from the start, then the words kind of write themselves. Especially if you're using automated writing tools like AI, the words literally write themselves. But it all starts with, like, strategy and structure. And then once I've got feedback from the skeleton draft, I would work on the first draft, send that over, and it's usually 85% of the way they are by that point because they've already seen the skeleton before it. And it's usually just a case of making a few tweaks.
- [26:40]
B
Yeah, I like the use of the skeleton draft. I think it's really helpful to define exactly what the skeleton draft is. Right. Because some people put a little too much information into the skeleton draft, and now you're talking about specific words. That feedback doesn't feel complete enough to be a draft. And so a client could see that as really disappointing. So the way that you talk about it, you know, some ideas go here about this or, you know, this. The headline should focus on the benefit, which is this really structuring it. So it's obviously not a draft of copy, but is instead literally the bones of the structure. It seems like, again, a really nice step in helping make sure that we're on message before we spend any time writing.
- [27:28]
A
Yeah. And I think that especially now, there is, like, an expectation that, like, copywritten should sound good, which of course it should. But I don't think the starting point should be style. Like, the starting point should be in substance, really substance and purpose. So, like, for example, I had a project recently where a client had a homepage that wasn't converting and the bounce rate was really high. And the purpose of getting Me involved was they wanted to figure out why. And, like, on the surface, the page looked good. Like, it said everything that you would expect the whole page to see, and it sounded good, but actually on closer inspection, like, it became apparent that the messaging was all over the place. Like, they were saying the right things but in the wrong places. So as a result of doing a workshop with them, we kind of established a message and hierarchy for the homepage, and then with a following rewrite. The client then published, like, a new homepage. And then I followed up with them a few months later, and their bounce rate had reduced and they were receiving more inquiries as a result, and they were attributing that to the homepage rewrite. It's not something that properly, like, measured, but they did say that they could attribute the increase in inquiries to the rewrite that we did to the homepage. Because it's a page that most people like, land on on a website usually. So without that sort of structure, then we would never have, like, achieved that result. And it's, yeah, substance over style every time.
- [29:11]
B
So are you doing anything specific to ask, you know, better questions through the process so that you. You have maybe a strategic advantage over other copywriters if they were invited in on a project? You know, I'm just. I'm curious about. Because the work that you do seems like it all unfolds very seamlessly, you know, obviously gets results. So I'm curious, like, your research process and as you go through that, how are you finding the information that you need in order to write great copy?
- [29:44]
A
Yeah, I guess it's about asking, like, smart questions. Like, the type of questions that the clients maybe haven't asked themselves. Like, as a copywriter, like, unless you're in house, if you're freelance, you do have the added advantage of being able to put yourself in the customer's shoes. Like, clients are very often, you know, they're working in their business and they find it quite hard to take themselves out of it and to look at it from the customer's point of view. And I think that's one of the biggest benefits that freelance cooperators have. So, like, by asking smart questions that they haven't thought about as a good way of really getting to, like, the purpose behind the copy. You know, it gives you the opportunity to maybe, like, challenge their assumptions as well about why they need this project, like, you can uncover the drivers behind it, and you can start to get the customer's point of view in there, which is something that they maybe don't have Access to, especially if they're a startup. So, for example, I remember asking a client on a call, I was during a workshop, like, what would happen if this copywriting project didn't go ahead? And, like, they were a bit taken aback by that, like, thinking, like, is Jamie trying to, like, talk himself out of a job here? But it didn't make them think. And after, like, a bit of a discussion with them, we kind of got to the purpose, which was that all their competitors had ramped up their marketing efforts, and they felt that they were kind of lagging behind. And so that was the kind of urgency that prompted them to get in touch in the first place. And this was for a brand refresh, like a website refresh. But before we had that workshop, they weren't really sure why they needed new copy. They just knew that they had outgrown it, and that was their reason for getting in touch. But actually, it was part of a bigger problem. It was that their competitors were starting to essentially overtake them on the marketing front. And, like, without asking, like, that question, like, what would happen if this project didn't go ahead? We would never have uncovered that. And, like, as a result, that kind of prompted a lot more competitive research that I probably wouldn't have done unless they had asked me to do it. But because we knew that was the reason, it did prompt quite extensive competitor research. So, yeah, asking smarter questions, kind of questions that clients don't ask themselves, is how I kind of get the information that I need.
- [32:35]
B
Do you have a list of these questions that you keep handy, or is it just what comes up as you're conducting a workshop or a discovery call?
- [32:43]
A
Yeah, I usually have a list of five or six core questions that I absolutely need to know, and that inevitably, like, triggers other conversations, which then leads to more questions. And sometimes you get really lucky and you get a client who's very passionate about making the project work. And sometimes you only need to ask them one question, and then they will give you the answers to everything you have written down. Other times, you need to maybe be a bit more strategic with how you're answering, how you're asking questions, because sometimes the clients don't necessarily know what they want. They know that they need a copywriter. They know that they need this specific deliverable. They don't have a clue about the process, and they don't really understand why they need it. So, yeah, that is more of a. More of a conversation than, like, a simple. Here's six questions. If you can provide me with the answers that would be great. And it ends up being more of a discussion than, like a sort of structured workshop, so to speak.
- [33:50]
B
When we started talking, you mentioned strategy and how important it is. Obviously you're doing a lot of strategizing on the call that you have this workshop call. But I'm also curious, like, how you think about strategy, how you define it yourself, and do you always just sneak it in, or do you actually sell strategy to your clients and say, hey, look, we need to start with strategy before we even talk words on page, like, how does that discussion go? That's a lot of questions I'd throw that. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:24]
A
I mean, because I have started to offer, like, copywriting assets, like, to other copywriters. I like, sort of sell the idea of strategy by calling it what it is, essentially strategy. But when I do it myself in a client call, I sometimes don't even use the word strategy. I use the word workshop because it's a bit more like user friendly. And again, just because strategy is one of those things that's a bit intangible. It means different things to different people. To some clients, it means huge budgets. To other clients, it means, you know, mad men sitting about on a couch drinking whiskey, and they're strategizing. So I like to call it workshops. And yeah, the way that I sell it is really just like the way that I like to work, which is like, I send them an agenda and I say, I know that this looks very formal written down, but it's essentially just a guide for the two and a half hours that we'll be talking. Make the point of telling them that it's relaxed and that they can speak freely and there's no right or wrong answers. Because that's the way that I like to work as well. Like, I prefer a relaxed environment rather than something that's a bit more rigid and kind of salesy, so to speak. So, yeah, my clients are sort of sell it in that sense that it's like. So I tend to have our conversation, here's the agenda. But I am also very prepared for it. Like, I have materials already done, and I've done all my competitor research so that once I gauge the tone, like, I'm able to, like, give them insights that they have never thought about before because I'm prepared for it. But yeah, when it comes to selling, like, the idea of strategy to other copywriters who want to learn it and introduce it into their own processes, then that's what I call it. I call it strategy or consulting because that's Essentially what it is. And a lot of people, a lot of co operators are already doing it. They just don't have like a framework to wrap around it.
- [36:27]
B
Yeah, that's my observation as well. So then, and I keep coming back to this, but you've got the workshop, you've got the, the information, the strategy that comes out of the workshop. What is keeping the client from saying thanks for that? Now we're just going to run it through ChatGPT and see what we can get. You know, how do you, how do you make that next jump to, to, you know, writing copy? And I guess that's maybe a broader question about how are you dealing with AI today?
- [36:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I do think that AI is inevitable. It's here, it's only going to get better. How much better over the next 10 years? Like don't really know, but it's already at that level that it can do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to producing text. But, and this is like how I frame it to clients. Like I always say, what AI can't do is it can't give you the thinking. Like you need to give it good input in order to get good output. If you give a prompt to ask to write a 1000 word sales page to sell a sports product and that will do it. And oh, probably make up a company and give you generic messaging because it's a technology of averages. Right. So it takes the average of everything else that's out there and that's the output it gives you. But in 2025, that's no good for clients. Want to stand out because you don't want to sound like everybody else. So you need the thinking behind it. And that's things like, you know, the company's unique selling points, their value propositions, the people behind the business as well, because that's what shapes the company's culture. And ChatGPT doesn't understand what that is. As a human, you're able to pick up on the nuances of the people that you speak to over a zoom call. You get a feel for their personality and a lot of the time that's what the company culture is and that is ultimately what should be, I think, reflected in the, the final deliverables, at least in terms of tone of voice. So yeah, I usually like frame it in that way that ChatGPT can't think for you. Like the thinking needs to come from somewhere and that's where the workshop comes from. And then when it comes to the actual deliverable, I Don't, I don't think clients are actually too bothered about whether it has been written using CHAT GPT or not. But if you get to the point that the messaging and the structure is on point and the client's happy with it, then nowadays it's almost like the text and the sort of style is like window dressing. Like a lot of clients come to me and they, they maybe provide me with a draft that they have written using ChatGPT. And of course because I'm aware of it, like I, I can tell almost instantly whether it has been written by ChatGPT. And like I always tell them that the way things are going like with, especially with Google's like EEAT standards, it's all about expertise, authority, experience and these are things that AI just doesn't have. So you need to be providing some sort of unique perspective. Otherwise Google just sees the content as being thin and it's not going to index it. Especially now that algorithms are taking longer to index content. It's not that Google penalizes AI content, it just is looking for content that meets its EEAT guidelines. And whether that has been achieved by using AI or not, it involves thinking. There needs to be thinking and work behind the scenes before you get to the point that you've produced something that's publishable. And to me that's like the future and that's the way things are going because AI is not going to slow down. So I think whereas strategy used to be seen as an add on or like a specialist service, I think it's now an essential.
- [40:47]
B
Yeah, I agree. My thinking is really. Well, I don't know that it's changed, but it's kind of up leveled where, you know, when the price of copy is virtually zero or is the cost of a ChatGPT subscription what clients are now paying for is that higher level thinking that happens before you can, you know, put that into the machine and, and get, you know, copy out and then, you know, revising copy that's written by AI is, you know, it, it maybe that's a job. Right. But it's not that high level. You're just trying to match a, a brand voice. And so it's really that strategy that more of us need to be selling.
- [41:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean you, I think there's, there's even tools out there now to humanize AI writing. So like everyone at play, there's AI tools to humanize AI writing and you know, technology is only going to improve. So yeah, I think the holding onto that Human element is important because ultimately like, and this is something I always say, Even, even like B2B spheres, like people still buy from people. They don't buy from faceless websites, they don't buy from, generally speaking, companies they've never heard of. They buy from people. And so if they can tell something's been written by a person who understands the problems and the pain points and is able to frame it in a way that makes sense to them, then that's far more persuasive than them seeing like a generic sales message. Yeah, because there's just no persuasion in there.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah, I agree. And I mean if you're able to fake it eventually, you know, when that's exposed, that leads to disappointment with the brand or the product and may hurt yourselves long term. So you know, short term gain for long term failures feels like a really bad trade.
- [42:45]
A
Yeah, that's it. I mean I think at the end of the day copyrighting is all about like, it's all about results. It's like you're trying to persuade people to take some sort of action and that needs to be measured. So whether it's like improving click through rates or increasing sales, there is like a sort of tangible measurement attached to it. And copy that simply sounds good doesn't always achieve that. So like it's all about clarity, purpose and messaging. Those are kind of the three things that ultimately like drive action and produce results. And the only way that you can arrive at that stage is by taking the time to think about it. What are we actually trying to achieve here? Because every business is different and every campaign is different. Like Chat GPT can't give you that answer. So it needs to come from the business and it needs to be translated by a copywriter who if they're then using ChatGPT to put the final 10% on it, then that's, that's fair enough. But the hard work's already been done by that point.
- [43:56]
B
Yeah, for sure. Is there anything that you wish you had done differently as you built your business, as you look back at the mistakes you've made, things that to. Yeah, you would change.
- [44:08]
A
It's a good question. I think I would have tried to raise my profile earlier like in my sort of career. Like it's honestly only the last year or so that I've started to put myself out there a bit. More. Like up until now I've been very much behind the scenes like building the business and doing the everyday client work. But it's only this last year since like developing like the course that I've been doing podcasts and like giving more of my insights into how I approach copywriting. And I wish I had done that earlier. I guess up until this point I have kind of put all my eggs in one basket with like inbound marketing and, and it's still working for now, but who knows what will happen in the future. But had I had like a profile on social media or on other websites either through like guest blogging back in the day or through podcasting, like, which would be like maybe the modern day equivalent, then I would have that recognition which would potentially tell their opportunities as well. So that would probably be one thing I do differently, is put myself out there earlier.
- [45:28]
B
This is kind of a way of asking the same question in a different way. But if you were giving advice to somebody who's just starting out, they want to make it as a copywriter, you know, whether that's here in the States, there in Scotland, you know, what would you tell them, you know, so that they increase their chances of success.
- [45:47]
A
I would say make sure that you're building a business on your own land. And by that I mean like build your own asset, which I think should be your own website. Because like, I do see a lot of copywriters who are established and have been around for a while, but they're still, still chasing projects like month to month, like they're applying for or like they're applying to comments on LinkedIn like alongside like a hundred other people or they are, they're sort of searching job websites or they're doing a lot of cold outreach and, and you know that that's the effective method and it's great. But for me personally I prefer to have more long term security knowing that if it's a slow month, sure I can apply for jobs and I can, and I can reach out to people, but day to day I prefer clients to come to me. And so the only way that I'm able to do that is because I have a website that I've developed over the last 10 years. And honestly most of the effort I put into that website was within the first year that it launched. I mean, of course I still update it and I refresh the content on it and I add pages, but most of the groundwork was done within a year. So it doesn't take that long to sort of build your own business like on your own land, so to speak. And so yeah, I'd say don't fall into that trap of like being part of the gig economy. Think of it long Term that if you still want to be doing this in 10 years time, then build yourself a business, you know, don't just have a fiverr profile, for example, you know, or don't get stuck into, don't get stuck on the like the sort of the hamster wheel of replying to LinkedIn comments and the hope that someone gets back to you. Because a lot of the time those kind of posts are performative as well. And whether there is a job at the end of it or not is, you know, we don't ultimately know because if you're one of a hundred people applying, you don't hear back, you just assume you didn't get it. But yeah, a lot of the time these things are more performative than they are grounds in reality. Whereas if you've got people actively seeking you out, you know straight away that they're interested and they're always worth having a phone call with, even if it doesn't lead to anything, at least they have come to you and you kind of have that advantage and that you know that they are at least interested.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah, and I think having your own land, your own territory is going to become even more important thanks to AI because of the way that search is changing, because the way especially younger generations are searching for information, that's the only way that you end up showing up in AI as an expert in your niche or doing the kind of work that you do is if it's somewhere out there online to find, you know, when all of those AI scrapers hit. And so you need to be posting content on your website, obviously it will pick up things, you know, through Reddit or LinkedIn, you know, as information is shared and purchased by the AI companies. But having that home base to be able to refer to, to pull content from is becoming more and more important. So I, yeah, I second that advice.
- [49:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's really like timely and it's important as well because that seems to be the way that things are going obviously like AI mode and AI overviews, like there's the whole like people aren't clicking through to websites in the way that they used to and a lot of the time they're having conversations with ChatGPT and then they're asking for recommendations and in order for you to be recommended you have to have content online. And it, I mean, again, I don't know, I don't think anyone really knows the way things are going to go, but I'm under the impression that the more places you can show up online the more likely you will be recommended by LLMs if you're, you know, putting all your eggs in one basket and simply relying on like work from Fiverr or Upwork. I mean, I don't know if LLMs can even scan the inner content of those websites. Probably. I don't know.
- [50:12]
B
Right.
- [50:12]
A
But they're unlikely to recommend. Yeah, they're unlikely to recommend like a single profile from a million on Fiverr, but there's a chance they will recommend a copywriter who has a website that's been online for a couple of years and has maybe showed up in interviews on YouTube and other places and is.
- [50:35]
B
Posting their own thoughts, their own frameworks, ideas and insights, the things that they're learning working for clients. This stuff is, I think, going to become even more important than it has been in the past, simply because that's going to be a large portion of how people find us.
- [50:52]
A
Yeah, that's it, I think being like sort of niching down and like providing expertise and like personal insights, like almost getting back to the days of blogging when everyone had a personal blog. That seems to be the way the things are going because the sort of. The more generic terms like how to become a copywriter, for example, like, that's going to be covered in the AI overviews. If someone's just curious about how to become a copywriter, they'll Google it. They'll read a couple hundred words on an AI overview and they'll probably be quite satisfied and no one gets a click from that. But if someone is looking intentionally for, you know, a copywriting course, for example, then because that's more of a transactional transaction, then you have the opportunity to be recommended by that LLM because you're offering something specific and you've got a particular approach to it rather than trying to target like a catch all term. So even though traffic, I think will reduce from Google, I think that conversions from LLMs, if you're lucky enough to get recommended by them, will probably increase. I think conversion rates will increase because they'll be. They'll essentially generate warmer leads.
- [52:19]
B
I agree. And you mentioned free courses. This would be a nice segue to the fact that you have a course that you offer for copywriters. Tell me a little bit about that and where people can find out more about that.
- [52:30]
A
Yeah, so. So I have a free course called Think Like a Strategic Copywriter, which is a course that's delivered by email over five days. And it's for copywriters who want to start offering strategy as a service and want to learn a bit more about it, what it is and how to integrate it into what they're already doing. And I also have a product called the Strategic Copywriters Toolkit, which is like a follow on from the free course. It's only £19 and it kind of explains a bit more about the framework that I use with clients when it comes to strategy. There's templates and there's videos as part of that. And then the penultimate offering is the brand new copywriting course, which is a, it's like a comprehensive copywriting course that covers things like how to develop a unique selling point and how to establish Torah voice and sort of the thinking behind that as well as the hands on techniques involved. So yeah, check it out on brandnewcopy.com.
- [53:36]
B
Brand new copy.com I like it. And Jamie, if people want to reach out to you directly, see your website, some of the stuff that you publish, where should they go?
- [53:46]
A
So yeah, my blog would probably be the first point. So brandrewcopy.com blog and also on LinkedIn as well. I'm not too active over there, but if you send me a direct message on LinkedIn, I'll definitely get back to you.
- [53:59]
B
Ramping up. Great. I appreciate the time that you've given me. Again, I'm thinking about the workshop, you know, that whole road mapping session, strategy workshop, however you want to define that. But I think that's something that I'm going to be incorporating more in my business. So thanks for that idea in particular, but also thanks for your time, Jamie.
- [54:17]
A
Yeah, thanks for having me, Rob.
- [54:25]
B
I want to thank Jamie Thompson for sharing his process for getting involved with strategy early on in a project where you can actually have a bigger impact and show how valuable your thinking is for solving real problems. Like I said at the beginning of the show, when AI can write copy that clients think is good enough, you need to contribute to your client's marketing efforts in new ways, hopefully in ways where you can add even more value. And Jamie's process is one of those ways. It's not exactly a roadmaping session, which is another way to play a strategic role with clients. With a workshop, you take the lead in helping clients determine what needs to be created and get buy in on direction, which helps eliminate changes and rework later on. If you implement Jamie's approach, email me to let me know how it goes for you. I'd love to hear how you make it work in your business. And of course another place to find resources to help you show up as a more strategic thinker is the copywriter underground. There are workshops on finding clients, pitching discovery calls, using diagnostic tools like a scorecard to get clients to say yes to working with you, workshops on copywriting, workshops on AI and voice, and so much more. Check them out@thecopywriterclub.com TCU2 that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know. Or if you don't know another writer or freelancer who you can share it with, go ahead and visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review there that helps other people find the show. And if you haven't left a review before, now is the time. I promise when you share the Copywriter Club podcast, your friends will thank you. I will see you next week. Foreign As a designer, you know clients want it all. A stunning site that runs their business and scales with their success. But tight deadlines shouldn't mean compromising your vision. WIX Studio is built for designers like you. Plan sites in seconds with AI powered site mapping, then design starting in Figma or in the WIX Studio Editor with precise layout tools. Then bring your vision to life with no code, animations, AI tools and one click responsive design. Design smoother and deliver sooner. Go to wixstudio.com.