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The Copywriter Club Podcast
TCC Podcast #463: The Biggest Opportunity in Copywriting Today with Tiana Asperjan
00:57:50
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- [00:00]
A
You're a professional web creator who needs a platform that works as hard as you do. Wix Studio is built for you whether you're a designer, developer or marketer ready to amplify your impact. Build intuitively with advanced design features and AI powered tools. Manage your clients and projects efficiently from one workspace scale with dynamic systems and fully managed infrastructure. Create exceptional websites with hyper efficiency. Go to wixstudio.com what is the biggest.
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Opportunity in Copywriting today? We're about to reveal the answer. This is the Copywriter Club podcast. When inviting guests to share their experiences on this podcast, I often look for writers who are doing something a little bit differently than their peers are doing. Someone who has a different approach or a unique viewpoint on something. Or maybe they're just testing things that the rest of us aren't yet up to speed on. My guest on today's podcast is Tiana Aspirjan. Lately I've been seeing Tiana everywhere, although that might just be a function of the algorithm showing me more stuff like the stuff that I've seen recently. But if you're a copywriter, Tiana's YouTube channel, social media feed and her newsletter are excellent and you should definitely be seeing more of it too. She's teaching what works in ads and copy right now, but she doesn't just say what's working. She focuses on the strategy and psychology behind an ad so that you know not just that it works, but why it works. She's doing things a bit differently from a lot of other copywriters and most of us who are sharing ideas and insights about copywriting with other writers. So I asked her to join me on today's episode and man, am I glad that I did. I like all of the interviews that I share with you each week, but this one really stands out. Tiana's story about how she got to where she is is a masterclass on the steps to success as a copywriter. It's less about the destination and more about accumulating the right experiences expertise that you need to be great. And I think as you listen in, you're going to learn a lot from Tiana's experiences and the path that she took. As for the answer to that question I posed at the opening of this episode what's the biggest opportunity for copywriters working today who want to stay relevant for years to come? Well, you're just going to have to listen to this episode because Tiana reveals it and why this particular niche. And I've got niche and air quotes here. It's not really a niche is where more copywriters ought to be focusing on their efforts today. If you want to look at an industry or niche that is desperate for help from good copywriters, you'll want to keep listening before we get to all of that. This episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words with Research Mastery, you'll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customers so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the four critical areas of research. If you miss one of them, your research just isn't complete and it includes the AI tools that you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unique program@thecopywriterclub.com researchmastery and now my interview with Tiana Asprjan. Tiana, welcome to the podcast. I'm really thrilled to have you here, and I want to start with your story. You've been an actor, you've been a user experience designer, you've been a copywriter, you're a creative strategy coach. Like, you're doing all of these things. Tell me, like, how, where did you come from and how did you. How did you build this?
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A
Yeah, this is a great question and it's a long and winding story, so I will try my best to be succinct about this, but I do think it's valuable to kind of hear all of the offshoots in the path because everybody goes through this. It's definitely not a linear path into the world of Internet marketing. But thank you so much for having me here. I'm excited to chat about this stuff. I'm a total nerd about the copy stuff, and I'm always excited to share what I've learned because I know it can be very helpful to hear people who've been in the trenches. So thank you for giving me the chance to do that today.
- [04:19]
B
Yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm excited to have you here.
- [04:21]
A
Awesome. Good. Great. Love it. Okay, so this is actually career number four for me. So I. Or number three, technically number three, I guess. But I actually went to acting school back in the early 2000s, so I have a university degree in acting. And so when I graduated, I actually spent seven years on the stage and I was, you know, doing Shakespearean theater across Canada. So I never expected that I would end up in sales. And in fact, I remember during that, that part of my Life saying, like, one thing I would never do is sales, which is so funny because it's so closely related to acting in so many ways. So it's funny that I've kind of ended up here after. After having such resistance to it. But somewhere along that journey, I realized that I was actually a very ambitious person and that I wanted to make money and that I had a lot of aspirations around travel and freedom. I wanted a nice apartment. That was like a big motivator for me at the time, because as an actor, you know, you're like, I was just getting whatever I could, like 40 roommates, like that. And so I at the time was really craving security. And so I kind of went the fastest route there. Which leads you to that little blip that you mentioned where I was a UX designer. And that was, you know, it. It gave me the financial security, which was new to me and nice. But I pretty quickly realized that it was like a very, very bad personality fit for me and I would, like, dread getting up in the morning. I hated the feeling of, like, knowing that somebody could tell me where I had to sit for eight hours of the day. Like, that really freaked me out. Especially coming from, like, an actor lifestyle where there's just no structure there whatsoever. So it was actually very, like, painful for me to go through that. And I didn't. I didn't have any exposure to entrepreneurship or to Internet marketing. And so I just. I didn't think there was another way to make money for a long time. Um, so I came, kind of like stayed very trapped in that cycle of just feeling like that was, you know, I was designing, like, bank apps and insurance apps and like, just things that were, you know, not exciting or passion driven for me at all. But I just didn't know that there was a way out. But at that same time, the universe sort of intervened because my sister was in the fitness space and she had kind of started dipping her toes into the Internet marketing world and she'd actually started a supplement company with her business partner and her business partner, Mike Sang. I always bring him up because he was like such a massive lever and influence in my. My career, but in my life as well, because he was really the one to give me that push that I needed to think bigger and see what was possible in the Internet marketing space. But even just like, realize that copywriting was like an actually, like a valid option, right? Because I at the time had just like what most people, the same kind of resistance. I come up across as a coach when I first Meet people who come to me and they say, like, you know, I hate my 9 to 5. Or like, I feel, you know, just unhappy in what I'm doing. And I say, oh, well, you know, you can become a copywriter and travel the world and work from your laptop, and you can actually make a lot more money doing that. There's such a belief barrier there, right? So I really needed that, that push. And he definitely pushed me to kind of delve into just beginning to learn copywriting. And so that was kind of like the instigating moment of that was like, I went to a couple conferences with him and I just started meeting people. And then it just so happened that that supplement company that they had started was beginning to expand. And so they really needed somebody who was able to manage design and tech teams and get these sales pages out fast, which is just kind of like a. You know, it's funny, I had this little blip as a UX designer, but it really, like, that's what I was doing as a UX designer. I was getting digital products and pages out quickly and managing teams. So it was really like a perfect fit. So he brought me on to help him, you know, get these sales funnels out the door in exchange for teaching me copywriting. And he made me transcribe like 15 VSLs, which took forever. And I was like, what is this? Because it was so, like, direct response side, right?
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B
And when you're handwriting them out is.
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A
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. I did. I started by handwriting. And then I. I will admit, I did switch to typing away, which also still was just as painful, honestly, like, not any easier process. But I'm so glad I did that. He made me do that. And like, he. He gave me a whole stack of books and made me read them all. Um, and I was kind of like, this was all in exchange for me helping him kind of manage teams while I still had this agency job. So my life was very, like, fragmented. I was like, during the day, I was a UX designer and then, like, also a marketing director, and then also I was this, like, new copywriter, and I was, like, trying to learn the rules. Um, and eventually he let me write some stuff, and everything I wrote bombed and took a really long time to, like, just, you know, do a good job on something. But eventually I did get good enough because I just kept practicing and then I started writing for him, and then it was enough that he became my first copywriting client and I was able to leave the nine to five and full time. Become a copywriter. And then. And then I just invested a lot of time, money, energy in just getting better and learning as much as I could. I invested a lot of my savings in courses and just opportunities to travel and go and meet people in person and literally just make friends. And I just was, like, so focused on that that it. I kind of laid the groundwork. So when I did start making those connections, I had both enough of the skill and I had the. The connections enough that I was able to, like, once I kind of hit that point, things took off really fast because I'd sort of, like, laid the foundation and it was. It made it easier. And here I am, I'm still copywriting. Really moved into the coaching creative strategy space very much on the E. Comm. Side of things now. And yeah, really trying to help copywriters, like, fill this gap in the industry right now. And like, I. In my opinion, the biggest opportunity for copywriters, which is moving into this E Comm. Learn how to write ads and creative strategy space.
- [11:56]
B
Yeah, I agree. I have about five different questions based off of some of that stuff. But you mentioned as you were starting as a writer, everything bombed, but you kept practicing. What was that process to get better? Because I think one of the struggles that we have as writers, especially when we're working alone, we don't necessarily have somebody helping us. But, you know, when stuff is bad, you don't always recognize that it's bad. And it becomes really difficult to recognize, how do I make it better? So what was that process like for you? And I know you help copywriters do that now in the work that you do, but how did you do that yourself?
- [12:33]
A
Yeah, I. I mean, the answer is I didn't do it by myself. Right. Like, I really lean. That's why I say, like, Mike was such a huge part of my growth because he pushed me in this direction. But I also, like, the huge advantage was that I was being exposed to all of the data, and I was being exposed to the full funnels, and I was being exposed, like, well, how is the copy? The copywriting was just like a cog in a much bigger wheel, right? And so that was, like, hugely helpful for. For watching the performance of my copy, because it was like the. Some of the mystery was like, I don't know. There was less mystery to it because it was like, oh, well, it's not working because it's just like, I could. I could see the. The numbers, right? So it helped a lot to just, like, see the bigger picture. One and Then the, the second thing is like I said, I, I did not do it alone. I, I actually really invested a lot of money, time and energy in getting coaching. So the other very, very big, influential sort of character in my journey is Ning Lee, who a lot of listeners probably know of. He's like a true master of copy. But I started getting coaching with him in probably like year, yeah, year one still. And he just like, like the way I write today is like very much influenced by the way that Ning wrote. And so everything that I was writing, like I was constantly getting feedback from him. So I was, you know, inside of his courses and his community was getting private coaching from him. Like I was really investing a lot. And then also as part of Copy Accelerator, which was Stefan Georgia Justin Goff's mastermind at the time. And so I was getting a lot of feedback all the time because I was seeking it out and I was constantly asking questions about my copy. So I guess, you know, you can't do it in a silo, in my opinion. I think you can keep practicing in a silo, but you are gonna just have more questions and not really like see the way out. That makes sense.
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B
Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. I 100% agree. You know those people who say they're self taught, maybe there's some magic in reading a few books where they simply get it, but it's the same for me, you know, when, when I was growing my skills, having somebody say hey, check it. I mean I started out long time ago so like in the 90s and somebody handing me the first Jay Peterman catalog and saying we need to be doing more like this, you know, and like walking through some of the principles that direct response people were inventing, you know, in catalogs, you know, early on. Uh, I, I, I agree. I don't think you can do it alone, even though too many of us try to do it.
- [15:18]
A
Yeah, and it, it's tempting too, right? Because I think that's like the interesting and fascinating thing about copy is like really good copy looks easy. And so it looks very like that's why, you know, when I say I'm a copywriter now, everyone's like, well AI is going to replace that. Right? And I'm like, AI is influencing it 100%. But like there's so much depth that you don't see. And that's why, why it's, it's strong. That's why the copy is strong. Right. So I think that I totally hear what you're saying. Totally agree. With that. And I think that a lot of it is just exposure and experience too is like, I think that it's, it's seeing a lot of sales pages, seeing a lot of headlines, and so that you're building like an arsenal, like a little filing cabinet in your head. So that when you go to write something that's in that category of thing or like in that niche or whatever, it's like you're pull. You're just recycling ideas that have already, you know, you've come across. So you can't really build that arsenal without time and exposure. Right. So you just want to get as much exposure as you can in as little time as possible. But you can avoid that. Like that there's going to be, there's, there's just time. Time. You can't fake that.
- [16:32]
B
Yeah. I think the other thing that you said too, as you're going through this process was your focus on making friends, which is interesting to me because networks are everything. You know, most copywriters, as we start out, you know, we might have two or three people we can reach out to, like a sister who, you know is starting a business that needs help or whatever, but those connections run out pretty quickly and at that point you either need to be expanding your network or you've got to be cold pitching. So talk about how you created these friendships with not just other copywriters, but I think with, with potential clients, right?
- [17:06]
A
Yes. Actually, I would say that in the beginning it was mostly business owners that I was like making friends with one. I mean, okay, so this is like my, I don't know if it's a hot take, but it's a very like a philosophy that I think sounds very different from what a lot of other people might advise or like might suggest doing. But I always say, like, find friends, not clients. And the, the reason for that is that like, clients are like, you know, it's kind of like, it's an exchange, it's a one off. But a friend is like somebody who's going to open doors for you. Right. And so it's like when I think back to like those first conferences that I went to, this is like a perfect example. So the first conference I went to, I met this very success, successful entrepreneur in the supplement space and we kind of hit it off. But I was so green and I was just asking him like questions. But we really, like, I just really liked him. Like, I was just like, this guy's awesome. Like, I really looked up to him and I just felt like, yeah, I vibe with this person, right? And then, like, today there was something that I really needed help on. And, like, he's like. He's like, yeah, of course, like, I'll help you out. And I'm like, it's just those little things, like, you don't know how it's going to. I don't even. I don't like the word pay off, but, like, you don't. The longevity of those types of relationships is just, like, you can't compete with that versus, like, trying to approach somebody and with like a, hey, I can be a copywriter for your. Like, if you're just going the client route, like, that's the. That's the depth of connection you're going to have. Whereas if you really focus on just, like, making friends, first of all, you're going to connect with people who you actually want to write for and want to work with, so those relationships will last longer. And secondly, people hire people who they like and trust, and that's the way to do that, is to show up and, you know, as cheesy as it is, but, like, really be yourself in these scenarios and be okay with, like, when you're not a match for somebody. And, like, you know, I've met a lot of people and there's sometimes conversations, and, like, we just didn't hit it off or, like, it wasn't bad, but it just wasn't like, the same kind of connection, and that's okay. Right. So I think it sort of sorts itself out when you approach it this way.
- [19:26]
B
I think the other side of that, though, is that if you're making friends, you actually have to deliver at a higher level because you don't want to blow up a. You don't want to blow up a friendship because, you know, the copy is, you know, you're. You're just like, halfway doing it. Right? And so you're almost, like, locked into a relationship where you have to perform because you don't want to let your friend down.
- [19:49]
A
Yes, that is such a good point. And I haven't ever articulated that, but that's like. I love that you said that. And I'm definitely gonna be repeating that after this because it's so true that, like, there's just more care in the relationship on both sides. Right. It's like you just care about the person you're working with, and it becomes so much more of a partnership. So, yeah, invest time in doing that. And I think it's like. What's interesting is, like, a lot of new copywriters will struggle really hard to get, like, client number one. And I always, like, just trust the process. And I have this video that is called like, 5 Ways to Make Friends Online. And I think it's been very helpful for a lot of people because it's super simple stuff that's like, go on Facebook and like, there's all these communities, like all Internet marketers are on the Internet talking about stuff, right? So it's like, find them and just comment on their posts and just be like, hey, this was really helpful. Thank you. When you find something genuinely helpful, right. Again, you're not faking it, but you're just supporting people consistently like their stuff. Like, if your face keeps showing up for that person, you're going to become an ally, right? You're going to become somebody that they actually want to talk to. So now you've created this little thread of connection where, okay, they suddenly, this brand owner needs a copywriter. Now you have like a little connection to them. They already know who you are. Right. So it's like you have to trust that process a little bit and just, I think that's a way better investment of time than sitting in like, cold emailing people who you don't know, don't care about, don't have any connection to. That's way harder to me.
- [21:26]
B
Yeah. And if you are showing up as that friend, as that supporter or ally, you know how, however you want to look at it, if you do end up in a position where you need to cold outreach, those, the people that you should be reaching out to who are starting to see your face and are responding to your comments. Right. So it actually turns cold connections into warm connections before they even become friends. Right?
- [21:47]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I, I, you know, this was, if I think about my copy journey, like, I've honestly actually applying for copy gigs like a handful of times, but the rest of it has been literally just people reaching out to me being like, hey, I know you're trying. And even when I was new, right, it wasn't because, like, I was an amazing copywriter. It was because I was just somebody who they connected with and they were like, hey, you know, so and so was looking for a copywriter, somebody to write a couple of emails, like, would you be interested in doing that? Like, that's how that started. And now it's all word of mouth, right? Like, I really, like, I don't have to do client outreach when you do this, when you invest time in the friendship part and like, it's hard to, from the outside trust what I'm saying because it's like. It feels like the scarier route. But I'm just like, I'm so confident that this will pay off for a newer copywriter eventually. It's just like, I. You gotta trust the process.
- [22:53]
B
No, I mean, I can tell you why it feels hard. You know, those of us that, you know, you get a referral here or there, but it's not consistent because, you know, we haven't built a network of enough friends to make it consistent. Right. So that's maybe one part of, you know, what makes it so hard to trust the process. But I've thought the same way about it. You know, anybody, anytime somebody's talking about networking. I hate that word. And I think most people do too. They feel like it's like, weird. You know, it's hard to approach people you don't know. But if you reframe it and it's about building relationships or, like you say, friendships, it's a totally different process with a totally different result.
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A
Yeah, definitely. It's just. It's easier.
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B
Exactly.
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A
And it's more fun.
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B
Yes. Oh, totally. It's more fun.
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A
It's.
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B
Yeah, it's way better. And now you have people to hang out with at the events because they're actually friends, not just people you gotta talk to about a project.
- [23:45]
A
Well, and like, the other cool thing is, like, as you're, you know, if you're making friends with brand owners or business owners, right. Like, eventually, as a copywriter, something happens where if you continue growing, there comes a point where you're like, hey, like, I want to do this myself. And so you might be like, I want to try an E. Com company. I want to try a coaching thing. I want to have a newsletter, whatever. Like, that opens up a whole other can of worms. Or you have to learn all this other stuff. You need a whole new set of connections. So if you already have people to lean on and say, hey, I think I want to launch a supplement offer, where the heck do I start? Right? If you have people already who like and trust you and support you and as. And are your allies, like, that came in very, very handy for me when I kind of started to make that transition myself. And so, again, you know, you gotta build that sort of foundation and. And realize that in the future, like, that it's. It's going to come around to you.
- [24:51]
B
You also mentioned you think the biggest opportunity for copywriters right now is direct to consumer ecom. Talk a little bit about that and why that's such a Big opportunity. And I think the copywriting world is kind of. I mean, I suppose it's like any other market, but, you know, certain niches seem to pop at different Times. You know, 10 years ago, everybody was talking about finance and, and health, but E Comm has really come into its own over, you know, maybe since 2019, 2018. So yeah, why should more copywriters be thinking about that as a potential niche?
- [25:26]
A
Okay. So I don't even see it as like a niche. I just see like, where everybody's moving. Like there's been this undercurrent for the last few years where like, it's very clear, like even all of my clients in the more direct response space are starting to like, re. You know, shift their businesses like, like the affiliate marketing space. Right. Shift their business into. Into more like E Com style branded companies. So that space itself is like already evolving and changing. So you should be learning the skills that are in demand there. Right. So you should be like growing in that direction. Anyways, the other crazy thing that's happening is that with AI it has literally never been easier for Joe Schmo to throw up an E Comm company. Right? Right. So it's super easy to get an E. Com company online and set up an ads account and start running ads. It's really hard to make those ads convert and to make those companies actually profitable. Right. And what's cool is that a lot of people who start E Comm companies, like, they aren't necessarily like educated marketers or like savvy marketers. They're just people who are passionate about the product or the offer the service that they have. Right. So what that means is that they actually are very desperately in need of. And they realize this. Right. They come against this thing. They're like, well, my ads aren't working anymore. And then the answer is always going to be, well, you need higher converting ads, you need a higher converting page, you hire converting emails. So they're going to turn to copywriters. So there's like kind of this perfect space there. There's like this new opportunity and then there's this huge gap in the industry in terms of creative strategy specifically, because what used to work with paid ads and with meta specifically is like media buyers used to be able to play that role where they would be in charge of like the creative direction of things. Right. And that used to work really well, but now the landscape is so dramatically different. It's so much more competitive. Meta changed the rules and how targeting works. So everything has to be Messaging first. So it's a very different game and you cannot compete. You can't scale without messaging first ads. And a lot of like, you're. That's why if you go on a job board right now you're seeing like there's a lot of brands looking for ad copywriters and creative strategists who are copywriters, right? Because they realize this. So there's like a high awareness of it. But there's very few people who actually copywriters who actually have the skills to do that, to know how to apply copywriting principles and tactics, traditional copywriting tactics to ads and to E. Com style pages and funnels. Right. So I mean, I feel like I just gave like 12 reasons why we should be doing this. Right? And just like, you know, in my own freelance, in my like freelance copywriting arm of my business, I am, I have been seeing that like the, the past like two years, it's just been a consistent rise of like the projects that I'm being called to write are or being asked to write, I should say, like, are all E. Comm related. A lot of ads, a lot of emails. And so I just doubled down on that. And so, you know, it's worked for me. I'm not having any like client flow problems. So I guess I'm just a good case study.
- [29:14]
B
It seems to me too. You mentioned, you know, there's obviously this need for copywriters, but it's, it's a little bit more than copywriters. It's not somebody who's just been writing content or even, you know, taking assignments from clients who say, hey, I need some emails or whatever. It feels like these are copywriters that need to be thinking more strategically. Maybe they need to be, you know, actually in Meta Ads Manager or, you know, some of the other tools and actually know how to do this, especially if the business owner doesn't have those skills. This is the place where we have an opportunity to be more than just a writer for a business.
- [29:49]
A
Yes. I also would say though that what's on going kind of what I'm seeing happen is there's like a very clear distinction now than there was previously where there's like the media buyer and the creative strategist, right. And the creative strategist does not have to be in the weeds on the media buying side. And I say this because this is like media buyers are realizing like they don't. They're great media buyers because they don't have this like creative type of brain, right? And copywriters are great copywriters and creative strategists because they don't have a brain to sit in an ads account and look at the numbers. And like, like that just makes them want to throw up. Right. So they don't want to do that. So it's like they are distinct roles. And so if you're a copywriter and you want to grow into creative strategy, you don't, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty of that. What you do need to understand is how to talk to media buyers. So that means you just need to know enough to be able to translate data into creative direction. Right. So that has a lot more to do with just like that. Yes, it's, it's strategy, but it's still like, it's, it's copywriting and sales strategy. So it's all the same kinds of concepts and things we would apply to any other type of copy that we're writing. But it's just learning like a new, uh, it's just kind of stepping into a new city. You know, you gotta learn, lay in the land there.
- [31:15]
B
It's so interesting to hear you describe it that way because when I started my career at an ad agency, the media buyer had nothing to do with the creative. You know, the creatives were all upstairs on the third floor. The media buyers were downstairs on the first floor. They were talking to, you know, newspapers or, you know, wherever they were placing the ads. The creatives were totally different. And it feels like we've had to relearn that separation over the last 10 or 15 years online. It's, it's just interesting to hear you say that.
- [31:43]
A
That is really interesting to hear. Yeah. When I first started kind of shifting because like, I spent the, the first, you know, chunk of my copy career very much in the direct response space and like writing the long form versus a lot of like hardcore direct response copy, that kind of thing. And so I didn't have a lot of exposure to the econ side for a while, but when I did a little bit, part of my journey that I left out was that I did launch a couple of like, supplement offers, some like physical product offers, and partnered with a couple people. And so it led me to working with affiliate media buyers and starting to kind of get to know that relationship and getting inside the ads account and doing all this stuff. But I was very shocked when I started working on more ads, both for my own products and for clients who I started writing ads for that like, media buyers were just kind of like, didn't even realize the need for copy. Like, they just were like, they were more like, oh, yeah, yellow ads work really well. Or like, you know, pattern interrupts and, like, things. But there wasn't a lot of, like. Like, they could. They could see an ad worked well, but they couldn't look at it and dissect why it worked and replicate that a hundred times.
- [33:03]
B
That's so interesting.
- [33:04]
A
That's what a good copywriter does, right? It's like, they can come in, you and I can look at an ad, and we can say, oh, yeah, well, that's, you know, resonating or working because of X, Y, and Z, or that one's not working because of X, Y, and Z. So we know the levers to pull and how to fix that. But media buyers were really more like. I don't want to say they. Like, this is kind of a harsh way of saying it, but they were more like, in terms of the copy were like, more throwing spaghetti at the wall. Right? So they were just kind of trying to replicate, but they didn't. They couldn't dissect why. And so that was, like, really shocking to me because I was like, wow, they would really benefit from copywriters. And I even had, like, conversations about this before. It was really like, the creative strategy was, like, so much of a buzzword. And now, especially in the last, like, year, it's come up so much more when they're like, messaging first ads. Messaging first ads. Like, that's what I'm hearing now. And I'm like, yeah, like, that makes so much sense to me. Right? But you're right, it did take a while for us to, like, catch up to that. And now I think, yeah, we're in that. Based on what you said, it feels like we're just in this cycle where it's like, the rules are, everything old is new again.
- [34:12]
B
Everything new is old again someday. So you write about this stuff in your newsletter. You teach about it on YouTube. But while we're talking about this, like, what is working? You know, when we say creative messaging in ads, give us some examples of what's working, really working in those kinds of messages going out to consumers.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah. Okay, so I don't think there's like, a. This messaging is working. This messaging is not working. Right. Because it's. It's more of a nuanced conversation depending on the product or the service that's being sold and the brand and all and the audience and all this stuff. Right. So. But what is, though, something that is working across everything is the philosophy of kind of like approaching it from what I kind of see as like the core message of an ad, right? So instead of just being, for example, like, let's say I've seen my competitor and they're like running ads that are like yellow and it has a headline on it and like, am I just gonna, like, be like, okay, we're gonna copy that and make a yellow ad also, right, with some kind of headline. It's like, the yellow is not the thing that made that ad work. The thing that made that ad work was whatever messaging was behind that. And the core message of the ad is like, what is the thing that the audience needs to hear at that exact moment in order to convince them and persuade them to click, Right? Like, what's the one thing that they need to hear in that ad in the 1.5 seconds that you have there attention? And so it really is, I think it's that it's like dialing into getting clear on what is your ad saying and why. Right? So understanding, like, I have a. For anybody listening who wants like a better description of that or a better walkthrough, I do have a YouTube video. It's called Core Message Equation. And it's really walks you through, like the process of how I think about that. But it's like imagine you're walking into a coffee shop, right? And you're going to meet your ideal customer. It's like when you sit, sit down to talk to them. Like you have to say something to them that's going to get them to buy your product. But it's the, the core, it's the message that you give them at that time. But it's also like your preparation for going to that coffee and, and figuring out where is their head at right now, right? What do they need and want right now? What do they need to hear? And like, understanding, which is like, if we're going to get into copy jargon is going to be like your stages of sophistication and stages of awareness, right? If you understand those things, then you know where to start the conversation. And your ad is like starting a conversation with somebody, right? So if you understand exactly where that ad is being placed, like why, when, to who, then you can define your core message. And that is what is going to get people to engage with the ad, which is going to lower your CPCs, which is going to make everybody happy and everyone's going to make more money.
- [37:21]
B
This is, I think, maybe where that creative strategist comes in with a research process as opposed to a media buyer who's just trying to do what everybody else is doing. So is there anything interesting about your research process? I know you have like the dig method that you've talked about in some of your videos, but you know, how do you uncover the stage of sophistication or awareness or how are you finding that Right. Point to break into the conversation where, where the person you're talking to is like, yes, that is right. You know, you do know me. Or that is the thing I need.
- [37:55]
A
Right? Yeah. So the, the dig research method is really the most efficient form of research that I could come up with. And it's like a, it's kind of what I naturally have evolved into doing over my copywriting journey. And it's also something that is like, I developed it specifically for also like the brand owner, for example, who wants to do research. Right. It's like, it's efficient, it's, it's in depth, but it's like accessible. Right. So it's like you really, you need to start with data. So just what's working now? Okay. And then intel, what's working for competitors across the market. Right. And then you have some specific questions you ask for those. And then gold. And the gold research is really where like 99% of your winning angles are going to come from and ideas and strategy and the answers to the most important questions are going to come from. And this is like, it's, it's the real people. It's like sourcing information from your actual, very specific audience. And so I always find my answers on, you know, Amazon reviews. I spend a lot of time on Reddit and it's about being really, really resourceful and finding where these people are hanging out. Right. So, for example, I write, you know, menopausal support is kind of a niche that I've done a lot of writing in. And so there's like a lot of forums and groups and things that I've joined. I'm probably the youngest member of a lot of those groups, but I'm scouring all of their, all of the comments that they're, they're, they're writing all the things, they're posting all of that stuff. Like, I'm taking all of that. And then this is where AI is like the most incredible tool for copywriters is in the research process because I just literally copy and paste all of this into like a, you know, 20, 30, 40 page document of just like, doesn't even need. It can just be pretty messy. And then I plug that into either chat GPT with a prompt, or I do have a copy first AI ad bot, which is like a one that's specifically built to do this. But you plug that in and then it will spit out really clear insights for you if you give it the right prompts. And that's where you're going to get the answers to this stuff. Like, that's where it's going to become the really, like, juicy real stuff is going to come from. Like their real language that they're actually using. Like the, the. How are they actually, like, talking about the pain points that they have? What. How are they really talking about their desired outcome? Why does any of it matter to them? Is it because they're kids or they're, you know, their spouse or their whatever? Right. Like, it's, it allows you to go a lot deeper when you spend most of your time there.
- [40:47]
B
Yeah. And again, I think a lot of copywriters are sort of familiar with that process. But hearing you talk about the, the level of depth that you go to, I think, you know, I, I'm just guessing this number, but 90% of copywriters, you know, that do go to Reddit. They're maybe in two or three groups. Right. And they maybe go back a month, you know, worth of stuff. So it's, it's really a difference of degree. It's not necessarily the activities are different, but it's the amount of time. In fact, I, I think it was Paris Lampropoulos that has said you need to get seven times more information than you actually need to, to write a page. Or that might have been Gary. I don't know. One of those, one of those great copywriters. But, yeah, like, to really find the gold, Dig is the right acronym because that's literally what you're doing. You've got to keep on digging.
- [41:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally agree with you.
- [41:44]
B
I'm really curious about how you've been building your authority and profile, especially on YouTube. You've been doing some. I think your videos on YouTube are fantastic. In fact, I'll watch them. And I'm just like, oh, I wish I'd made that video. You know, I wish I had thought of that idea. They're so good. So tell me, you know, as you're talking about some of the things that you're doing and teaching, you know, what are you doing on YouTube and, and what goes into creating that kind of content?
- [42:13]
A
Sure. Well, first of all, Rob, it is so lovely to hear you say that, and that's such, like, wonderful Feedback to get because this is like such a. Some. This is something like, I've really evolved a lot in this area because, like, I know you kind of when we were chatting before, you were like, oh, it must come so naturally to you because you're an actor, blah, blah. But to be honest, like, this stuff does not come naturally to me. In fact, I'm like, actually, it scared the crap out of me. Like, this is not. I had so much resistance to putting myself out there and like, trying to. Trying to do this stuff right. Like, it's. It's vulnerable, it's scary. You don't want to get it wrong. You don't want to do all this stuff. And so when I really started, like, a huge shift for me happened when I was like, I'm just gonna like, approach, like proceed with joy. And it sounds like such a simple cheesy thing, but like, mindset plays so much into this stuff. Whether you're like a copywriter getting your first client or you're trying to put out YouTube videos or start a newsletter, like, whatever. A lot of I know your followers are trying to do these things. It's like you have to be afraid and, and do it anyways and then on top of that, find the joy in it. So I think with the YouTube stuff, to be honest, there's actually not a lot of strategy there. I. My single focus was like, I just put blinders on and I'm like, okay, I know the hardest thing is just going to be to be consistent. So I'm like, I'm just going to put out a video every week. Whatever it takes. I'm going to try to put out a video every week. So it started, you know, if you watch the first couple videos, it's like, you know, I think the sound is getting a little better, the quality of the video is getting a little better, the editing is getting a little better. But like, you know, that's not me doing the editing. I have a wonderful editor that I found on Upwork who does that for me. But that's, that's my very honest and transparent answer is like, I'm just doing what I think people need to hear. And like when people message me back on like my. The copy first newsletter, right, People ask me questions. I'm just really like responding to those questions with YouTube videos. So that's kind of where it's at right now. And I'm just trying to provide value. And then I think if I get a little bit of traction with that, then I will focus a lot More into, you know, how do you grow that? How do you really get into the. The weeds of growing that? Because that's a whole other can of worms that I'm not going to claim to know much about, honestly.
- [44:55]
B
How's your approach on YouTube different from. Than what you're doing on Instagram, which it feels like, you know, sometimes you're posting similar content in both places. Maybe Instagram's a little bit more like a look into some parts of your life, but, you know, any. Any difference? Or is it just kind of like, hey, I have an idea and I'm just gonna post it?
- [45:14]
A
Yeah. So the YouTube stuff is really meant to be more like free training. So it's like making a lot of this stuff, like, accessible to people who, you know, if you can't necessarily like, jump into the full course or whatever. Like, I do try to put that stuff out there because I understand, like, people need to start somewhere. So the YouTube stuff is very much like, I tried to do as practical of training and examples as I possibly can. And then Instagram is like, yeah, either just like letting people know that there's new stuff on YouTube or there is. Yeah. Sometimes it's just like more of a peek into my world a little bit. But in terms of like my. I guess where I'm driving people is like I'm trying to build the copy first newsletter. Right. So everything's really trying to funnel into that and then that's where like, I'm really trying to. Yeah. Give people more access to. To full. The full master classes and the courses.
- [46:13]
B
That I have to offer and the newsletter that. That was going to be like my third piece. So it feels like there's, you know, these three arms to your content wheel. Everything funnels to the newsletter. And I guess, really like, how much time are you spending on content every week versus, you know, working for clients because having put together a few YouTube videos, having, you know, written a daily ish email to my clients, I don't post on social media just because it's probably because I don't like it in the first place. But also some of that proceeding with joy is really hard for me when it comes to Instagram. But I mean, it takes a lot of time and effort and thought to keep showing up like that. So. Yeah. How much time do you spend on that every week?
- [46:57]
A
Well, I actually think I have a really good system with the YouTube stuff right now. Like, I really, I have a very efficient process where I, I have the idea and then I write the script. It maybe Takes me like, I don't know, sometimes depends on the script. Like a couple hours maybe, and then. And then I record it the next day. And I, I honestly, my process is just like, do it before I talk myself out of it, before I think too hard. And then the actual recording process doesn't take a long time. The first few videos were definitely the hardest ones because I was trying to find the right editor. But now I have this great editor and we are in a really good cycle together and. Okay. So this is actually, okay, a sort of hack or thought process around this. Believe this, that every copywriter should be doing this. Creative strategists in particular need to be really good at this thing. But you will save a ton of time if your deliveries are very clear to the person you're delivering it to. So, like, if you're working with. So for example, I'm doing a YouTube video and my editor. Right. So my, the scripts that I send them are very similar to like the way I would write a script for a creator. Right. Or an editor or that I'm working with for ads. Right. Where it's like, it's a clear storyboard. I got all the links there for them. There is going to be very little questions. I'm reducing the friction inside of the pipeline. Right. So when I do that, the process is actually really fast. It's just, it's like taking out those friction points by having better preparation, communication of your vision.
- [48:51]
B
That makes a hundred percent sense to me. Yeah. The, the more thinking or the prep that you do up front, the easier it is to execute and, and finalize and get it all done.
- [49:00]
A
Yes. Yeah. Agree. Yeah. And then on the Instagram side, I'm actually with you on that. I think that I, I think that content is like, weirdly hard. Not because it's hard, because it's like, it's just such high volume. And so in a perfect world, I'd love to. I've kind of, like, tested a little bit, but I would love to, like, have somebody just manage that. And if I could just like give.
- [49:22]
B
Follow you around with a camera and.
- [49:24]
A
Not even if I could just give them raw footage and then they can just like take it and run with that. So if there's any copywriters listening or anybody who's like, hey, I can do something like that, I am open to any solutions you have, because you're right. It is like, I think it can be. I think it can be really easy when you're trying to grow something to like, do busy work. And like, content is kind of like an E, like a busy work thing, but it might not be the biggest lever, right? Not the biggest, like, needle mover. So for me, I'm like, yeah, the YouTube right now, for me, I've chosen that as like my. That's my big, bigger needle mover. Writing to the list is the bigger, bigger needle mover flushing out and just growing and making the course better and better and working with my students and getting results for my students. Those are my needle movers.
- [50:13]
B
I mean, ironically, one of the problems with, you know, looking at things like needle movers is, you know, YouTube today. And I don't know how many subscribers you've got, but, you know, the difference between where you are today and if you have 100,000 subscribers, like, you know, the lever has changed, right. And now suddenly, you know, the effort that you put in is magnet magnified so many times. And so what's difficult to do and isn't moving the needle today could very well become the biggest lever in the business eventually. But you don't get there unless you do that grunt work. And. Yeah, and again, something I definitely struggle with.
- [50:50]
A
Yeah, I mean, it kind of really loops back to our other conversation about, like, building relationships. Right. Like, sometimes things are slow and the growth is invisible. Like, we don't know where it's going to lead. But if you're like, if you're consistent and you're. You're just trusting that process, like it's going to accumulate. Right. And the cool thing is I do think it's like compounding. So it's like, you know, I don't have a lot of subscribers now, but if I'm continue to be consistent, then, like, it's going to grow faster. Right. But it does take that. That very boring. Like, I think Alex Ramosi calls it like the Valley of despair, where you're just like, you're working on something and you're like, I don't even know what is. Like, this doesn't feel like it's ever gonna work. Um, but, you know, you just. I think, I think that's. That's part of the game. And I think that's like the price you pay is like, getting through that, that point where you just are consistent and you just, you just keep doing it anyways.
- [51:48]
B
Yeah. Well, you've mentioned working with your students. I know you have a course. In fact, you did a free preview a couple weeks ago of some of the content in there. It's really good. But talk a little bit about that and you Know what the, what the purpose of the course is.
- [52:03]
A
Okay, great. So this is called the Copy First Creatives Masterclass. That is the newest course that I have and I really built it for to make writing ads and creative strategy accessible. So it is a great solution for copywriters who are making the very smart decision to evolve their skill set and learn how to write ads and prepare themselves and evolve towards becoming a creative strategist. It's amazing for media buyers or video editors who want to do a better job on ads and have a more in depth understanding of what makes an ad really good. It's also great for creators to create better content and just like have better performance in their own business. And it's great for e comm brand owners who are like we said, are kind of putting up these e comm sites, but they're just like, I just don't know where to start, like how do I write an ad? Right. They don't have the resources to just completely hire that out and they want to understand it themselves. Great solution for them as well. And it really is built to like walk you through the fundamentals of copy. The I call like, you know, the pillars of persuasion, all of these kind of like in depth copywriting tactics and copywriting traditional copywriting principles and applying that to creative strategy and ad writing. And it really walks you through that entire process. So we start very high level, just understanding what the purpose of an ad is and you know, kind of high level, like how do you turn data into creative direction? What are the principles of persuasion? How does it apply to ads? What are the stages of sophistication? What are the stages of awareness, all of this stuff. And then we kind of get more granular as the course goes and you're literally getting like very clear like copywriting lessons on here's how to write a really, really good video script, here's how to write a really, really good headline, here's how to do your research, here's how to right for this niche or this niche. And it really goes through that entire process for you. So it's kind of like a one and done for anybody wants to write better ads or become a creative strategist.
- [54:27]
B
And where do people find out about that? And I guess we should all say, Tiana, where do people sign up for your newsletter so they can hear about this as you're adding various things to it?
- [54:38]
A
Yes. So the best way to hear about any of this stuff is through the newsletter. So if you go to tianaasforjan.com copy first newsletter. I will right away send you a bunch of information about how to gain access to all those courses. And you're also going to have the benefit. You're going to get a bunch of free stuff and free training and all the stuff from me directly. Following me on Instagram is a good idea because I have a lot of announcements there, which is Forgen and then of course the YouTube channel that we chatted about. Make this very easy. It's also at Tiana Aspergern.
- [55:14]
B
It's nice having just, you know, one hook or name for everything.
- [55:19]
A
Yes.
- [55:20]
B
As long as we can. As long as we can figure out how to spell Aspran, we're in good shape.
- [55:25]
A
That's going to be the hardest part.
- [55:26]
B
Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Tiana. I really appreciate your thoughts and insights on this whole business that we are in together. So thank you, Rob.
- [55:37]
A
This was so much fun. And again, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, this was awesome. And for anybody listening, I would love to hear from you if you have further questions, any of that kind of stuff. I genuinely love hearing from you copywriters, so please feel free to reach out directly. Email me, whatever, DM me, I don't care.
- [55:58]
B
Thanks to Tiana for sharing her experiences and pathway to becoming a fabulous writer. A couple of the things that she shared stand out to me from her story. She didn't try to do it alone. Through her entire career journey, she was getting help, she was getting input, she was getting coaching from people who were a few steps ahead of her or from people that she had connected with who could get her the next opportunity. Then there's Tiana's focus on making friends rather than networking. Real relationships are far more valuable than a network of loose connections who don't really know you. If you can create relationships or friendships with business owners who can become clients, your business is going to do well. And how do you do that? Well in person? Events is maybe the best way. Meeting people in real life, it's expensive, it takes time and effort to make those kinds of connections, but it pays off so much more than a connection request on LinkedIn. Of course, if all you've got is LinkedIn, then do your best there. Don't ignore this as a strategy for connecting with people, but if you can connect with them in real life. I also appreciate Tiana's approach to YouTube and making her commitment to just showing up regardless of how polished an episode is. It has paid off for her and it's something that I need to do more of. As far as The Copywriter Club YouTube channel goes, if you haven't seen that, you can check us out at YouTube the Copywriter Club Be sure to check out Tiana's newsletter copy first. Tiana shared the link just a moment ago, but I've also linked to it in the show notes to make it easier for you to find. And also, don't forget to check out Research Mastery, the proven research program that will help you write better copy and sell more. And you can find more about that@the copywriterclub.com researchmastery that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. If you like what you heard, please share it with someone you know. If you don't know another writer or freelancer to share it with, well then visit Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is that you listen to your favorite podcasts and leave a review. I really appreciate it when you do that. We help other people find the podcast and just share your experience. If you haven't left a review before today's the day, do it. I promise when you share the copyrighted Club podcast, your friends will thank you and I'll see you next week. As a designer, you know clients want it all. A stunning site that runs their business.
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A
And scales with their success.
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B
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