Podcast Summary: The Copywriter Club Podcast

Episode 464: Creating Customer Journeys with Rob Marsh
Host: Rob Marsh
Date: September 9, 2025

Episode Overview

In this solo episode, host Rob Marsh delves into the concept of customer journeys—what they really are, why most marketers and copywriters approach them backwards, and how shifting your perspective can make your writing far more effective. Drawing from his college teaching experience and real-world marketing examples, Rob breaks down how customer-centric thinking transforms messaging, mapping, and ultimately results. Listeners walk away with actionable advice for mapping detailed journeys and a broader understanding of how every interaction (not just in business) is a kind of journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Really Is a Customer Journey?

• Definition Expanded:
  Rob defines the customer journey as every step and touchpoint where the brand intersects with the customer, focusing not just on point-of-sale but on mapping thoughts, emotions, and calls to action throughout the process (03:30).

  “The step by step map captures the thoughts, the emotions, and the feelings that the customer is feeling at any point in the journey.” – Rob Marsh [05:10]

• Beyond Basic Frameworks:
  While typical frameworks split journeys into four stages (attention, consideration, purchase, retention), Rob argues this is an oversimplification and misses the nuance that comes from deeply understanding customer needs at every step.

Flipping the Marketer’s Mindset

• Common Mistake:
  Most copywriting and campaign planning focuses on what the marketer wants (sales, conversions) rather than what the customer needs.

• Customer-First Perspective:
  Great marketing starts with what the customer wants and needs, only targeting those who truly benefit from the offer.

  “Customer journeys turn this entire process around so that we’re focused on our customer, their perspective, their needs, and what they get out of the entire process.” – Rob Marsh [09:10]

Mapping the Journey: The Running Shoe Example

• Different Audiences, Different Needs:
  Rob outlines how typical marketing for running shoes targets one persona (athletes), but a true customer journey approach reveals vastly different groups: marathoners, nurses on their feet all day, people with disabilities needing more supportive footwear, casual joggers, and more (12:30).

• Result:
  When mapping journeys for each audience, messaging shifts and new markets open.

  “We might miss some of these audiences. But when we start with the customer and what they need, now we've just identified potentially four, maybe more, buyers' journeys…” – Rob Marsh [15:08]

Creating Effective Customer Journeys

• Start with the End in Mind:
  Drawing from Stephen Covey, Rob stresses the importance of visualizing the customer’s successful outcome—what it looks like, feels like, and what beliefs need to change to reach it (16:25).
• Critical Questions:
  1. Who exactly is your customer?
  2. What does their desired end state look like?
  3. What do they need to believe to move from where they are to where they want to be?
  4. What beliefs are currently holding them back?

Awareness Levels Affect Journey Length and Content

• Eugene Schwartz’s Spectrum:
  Rob explains how the five stages from “unaware” to “most aware” dictate both the number and type of touchpoints needed (20:18).

  • Most aware: Few, direct messages (e.g., loyal fans pre-ordering books)
  • Solution aware: Some comparison, education, and reassurance
  • Unaware: Many messages, educating and shifting beliefs step by step

  “It takes a lot more than seven ads or seven quick messages to capture somebody’s attention, build the trust, to have them see you’ve got the expertise…” – Rob Marsh [18:40]

  Examples:

  • Michael Connelly’s fans jump straight to purchase on a single announcement [22:15]
  • Running shoes require research, trust-building, and comparison [23:10]
  • Introducing new, unknown products (PIP Stress Sensor, Neurable Headphones) demands 10s of touchpoints, various channels, and much more educational content [24:00]

Multi-Touch, Multi-Channel Journeys: Real Life Case

• Personal Story:
  Rob details his year-long journey to finally purchasing a Hebrew language course:

  • Saw multiple Instagram ads over weeks
  • Clicked lead magnet, received emails
  • Retargeted through ads, eventually received calls and texts
  • Every touchpoint addressed a fear, objection, or motivation until he was ready to buy (26:00).

  “Every touch point has one message, has one call to action. And is addressing my feelings or the sentiment I have, or the hesitations that I have, or the objections that I have to move me from where I am right now, one step closer to a purchase.” – Rob Marsh [27:41]

Applying This Mindset as a Copywriter

• Questions to Ask Yourself on Every Project:
  • Are you simply fulfilling deliverables... or mapping the actual mindset and needs of each customer segment?
  • Are you considering every channel and touchpoint (not just email)?
  • Have you mapped individualized journeys for different audiences (beyond the main, obvious one)?
  • Are you crafting each message to meet the customer where they are, not just repeating what you want to say?

Everything is a Journey—Even Life Outside Marketing

• Universal Principle:
  Rob emphasizes that journeys aren’t limited to sales—they’re present in relationships, job searches, even podcast guest pitching.

• Deeper Insight:
  If you want something from someone—ask what they want, what they need to believe, and what steps (touchpoints) will get them there.

  “Every relationship is a customer journey…You can even map out these touch points and what your partner or spouse is feeling at each step and the message that they need to hear in order for you both to get the things that you want…” – Rob Marsh [28:00]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Backwards Approach:

  “And the problem with all of that is it’s from the marketer side of the buyer equation. It’s all about getting what the marketer wants… but it’s not necessarily what the potential buyer wants or needs.” – Rob Marsh [09:00]

• On Market Segmentation:

  “There are marathon runners… nurses… people with a disability… people like me… All of these buyers…have very different problems with the same product.” – Rob Marsh [13:07]

• On Life as a Series of Journeys:

  “Everything is a customer journey. Every relationship is a customer journey…As we map out these customer journeys, or at least think about how we can help people get what they need, that often will help us get what we need.” – Rob Marsh [28:00]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–04:00| Intro and Research Mastery sponsorship (skip ads) | | 04:00–07:30| What a customer journey really is; moving beyond templates | | 07:30–10:20| Why flipping from marketer-focused to customer-focused is critical | | 11:00–15:18| Running shoe example—contrasting audiences and needs | | 16:28–18:45| How to design a journey: Starting with the end and identifying beliefs to change | | 18:45–20:50| Multi-channel awareness and necessity for many touchpoints | | 21:00–25:00| Awareness level examples: Michael Connelly books, running shoes, completely new products | | 26:00–27:45| Personal multi-touch campaign: journey to buying a Hebrew language course | | 27:45–28:40| Universal application: All relationships and goals are a kind of customer journey |

Key Takeaways

• Customer journeys are far more granular and human than typical frameworks suggest.
• Effective marketers and writers start by mapping every audience’s needs, beliefs, and emotions—not just by deploying set deliverables.
• The number, type, and content of touchpoints varies dramatically based on buyer awareness and previous experience.
• Every interaction, inside or outside marketing, can be viewed as a journey where understanding what “the other” wants, believes, and needs to hear is critical.

Final Words

Rob Marsh encourages copywriters to step deeper into their customers’ shoes, literally and figuratively. By shifting attention away from what you want and toward what your customer needs to feel, believe, and experience, you’ll create richer, more effective marketing journeys—and more fulfilling connections in every corner of your professional life.

End of Summary.