Meredith Cooley (4:11)

Yeah, thanks so much, Rob. I just want to start by saying I'm so happy to be here. You know, I listening to your show from the beginning of my own journey was such a help and it's really an honor to be able to chat with you today. So thank you.

Rob Marsh (4:25)

Thank you.

Meredith Cooley (4:27)

Yeah, so I was a teacher for a long time. 17 years.

Rob Marsh (4:32)

And yeah, that is a long time.

Meredith Cooley (4:35)

It's a long time. And it's kind of an interesting story because when I graduated college, know what feels like a hundred years ago now, there was not this I was an English major and I really wanted to write. I came out of college and, and wanted to be a writer in some capacity. And I had a hard time figuring out how to do that in that time because there was not this world of online writing or digital marketing or, you know, it just wasn't a thing. I did try to get jobs at some ad, you know, advertising agencies. I thought it would be really fun to write ad copy. And as a 22 year old, I also wanted to live in New York City and those jobs were not going to support my, my life in New York City at that time because I needed to pay for rent and you know, it's an expensive place to be.

Rob Marsh (5:29)

And ad copywriting back in the day paid like less than teaching in fact.

Meredith Cooley (5:34)

Yes, yes, it paid very. Those entry level jobs Were a little bit shocking for me to discover. Yeah, they were not going to be paying very much. It was really about like, come get the experience here, which would have been great had I had the means to do so, but I did not at the time. So I had kind of a windy path and ended up going back to school to get a master's in education and thought, well, you know, this is kind of playing into a terrible cliche, you know, But I kind of felt like I guess maybe I could teach writing. I guess I could, I could teach kids how to write and, and I did get to do that for a long time, which was, you know, parts of it were really wonderful and I think really parts of it played into what eventually helped me to upskill as a writer. To think like the things that I taught kids and the things that I already knew how to do, but eventually the life of, you know, being full time in a classroom and the many, many hats that teachers have to wear and the, you know, the pay also were really wearing on me. And I think, you know, I had my daughter in, in 2019 and realized, and really knew before, before that, that when I became a parent, I was going to need to change the way that I was working because I knew that I was, I was exhausted all the time and I knew that I wouldn't have what I needed in my energy, well, to show up as the type of parent that I wanted to be, you know, but it didn't stop me from trying. So I kind of, I kind of stuck around for probably longer than I should have. I did teach through the pandemic and it was like this Little window in 2021 during which my school was closed down. So we were teaching virtually. But my daughter, who was two at the time, was in their like daycare program and they were open. So I was working at home, in my quiet home and my daughter was at school. And I just had these moments of, oh, I could have a really different, you know, feeling in my day to day life working from my house, not feeling, you know, like a kind of crazy trying to keep it all together and work full time out of the house and, and have some energy at the end of the day. And so it was a real turning point for me. So it was sort of the end of 2021 that I started to poke around and, and think about what could be next, what is something that I could do that would make sense. And I started, you know, lo and behold, the, the Internet and social media appears to be able to read minds sometimes. And I started getting ads for copywriting courses and, you know, just these. Realizing this idea that I could make money as a writer, and that was very appealing to me. So I, you know, I did some. I kind of used a smattering of different courses and did some upskilling and. And went out and tried to get some clients. And I felt a little, you know, it all felt a little scattershot for me, I think. But I was able to, you know, upskill here and learn more over there and. And land my first clients, which were, you know, great experience for me. But it was, you know, I wrote lots of blogs about health insurance and Medicare and car insurance and kind of, you know, topics that were all across the board. And it did get me experience. You know, it taught me that I could get paid as a writer, which was a really important step for me. But it also taught me quickly, you know, what I wanted to be spending my time on and what I didn't want to be spending my time on. So I eventually invested in coaching and mentorship, which to me is really the most powerful thing you can do as you're starting out on your own, is to look to someone who's done it successfully. And that was really what started me on the bigger path of knowing, okay, I want to do copywriting and content writing. I want to lean on my expertise and my background because it's a big part of my life and it's been. Been a huge part of my adult career. And I think I can write for education companies. I think I have something that they will value in terms of my background and experience in, because it's education. B2B. Education writing is a nuanced job in terms of who you're writing for and the topics you're writing about, especially in today's market. So, yeah, you know, I. I kind of have been on that path for a few years, and it's. It's changed my life, which is amazing. You know, I really have the kind of slower pace of life. And, you know, of course, it all comes with your own challenges. When you start your own business, learning about everything you need to know in terms of being your own boss and managing your own time and managing your own finances. And, you know, know, I had probably the same tax snafus that everyone has in the beginning, and you learn and you get better and, And. And I can. And I, you know, I really. I continued to invest in asking people for help and turning to the mentors that I felt like were really smart in the space and that could really help me to be better at what I was doing. And then, you know, what happened with my teacher heart and soul is that I realized I wanted to be able to help other people. And I really felt strongly that there could be something that was a one stop shop, or at least the foundations of teaching teachers how they can specifically use their expertise, helping them with sort of the foundational skills to get ready and to be able to do that work and also to help them build confidence in what it's like to go out and find the clients that could most benefit from their skills and expertise. And that is what led me to create my course, which is called From Classroom to Copywriter.

Rob Marsh (12:14)

So you've done a lot of things. You've listened to the podcast for a while and you've heard a lot of the episodes. And one of the things that I've realized is that a lot of copywriters were teachers before they become copywriters. Like Even, even probably 6 or 7 of the people that I can just think off, off the top of my head that I've interviewed on the podcast were teachers. Do you think there's something about being a teacher that makes it easier to be a copywriter or that leads you into a field like copywriting? Aside from the fact that, you know, as an English major or literature major or even a history major, which what I, what I was. We learn how to write as part of, of our schooling. But is there anything else besides that?

Meredith Cooley (12:58)

Yeah, I, I really think there's a lot of things, honestly, you know, off the top of my head. I think teachers have so many different jobs under the umbrella of teacher. You know, they include project management in terms of the, the number of things I have to keep moving in a day. They include being able to talk to so many different stakeholders and, and figuring out how to move those audiences, you know, from students to colleagues to administrators to parents. Teachers really know how to engage what oftentimes can be an uninterested audience, for lack of a better, a better way to say it. You know, teachers know how to make, you know, content and concepts that can be dry, exciting, and they know how to hook kids in. And to me, kids can be some of the toughest audience because they're, you know, they're interested in all the different things they're interested in. There's 25 kids in the class. Everyone's different, everyone's on a different level. So it really takes a skilled individual to be able to find the thread and pull everyone into it. You Know, teachers are incredible storytellers. You know, you may know if you're a history major at some point, you were probably really drawn to that because you probably had a great history teacher. You know, teachers who know how to teach through story and make it relatable to what's happening in the lives of their students are the teachers that are able to reach the most students, I think. And that skill of storytelling is a huge part of copywriting, you know, because in the end, you know, yes, you're selling, and in B2B, you're selling to businesses, but, you know, inside of those businesses are people. And those people have emotions and wants and needs and pain points like everyone else. And I think really the most effective way to reach anyone in that position is to call them in with story in some way, shape or form. And I think teachers are really good at that.

Rob Marsh (15:12)

And I was gonna say, you know, I had a conversation with another copywriter a few years ago, and her parents were both teachers. She thought about being a teacher. I, at one point was even thinking, you know, I might want to teach college, something like that. It wasn't my path, which I figured out pretty early. But I. I think that all copywriters are teachers in a way, because, you know, when you're writing content or when you're writing copy, when you're selling, when you're trying to help people solve their problems, you are teach products, services, all kinds of different things. And so maybe that's another reason why so many teachers naturally gravitate to copywriting.

Meredith Cooley (15:55)

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think that when you are a teacher, you have to understand how to take a concept that might be complex depending on what you're doing, and break it down in a way that's going to feel digestible and understandable to your students. And for some teachers, that's, you know, teaching things that they need to. They need to be able to turn into content or concepts that first graders can understand. For some, it's, you know, on a much higher level, they're working with high school students, middle school students, but all the same, you know, students are going to latch on to things that make sense to them and that they relate to. And I think that skill of thinking about a concept in technology or a concept in any industry that might be complex and finding a way to make it much less complex and make it easy for people to latch onto and to understand why it should be important to them is a skill that teachers definitely possess.

Rob Marsh (17:03)

I think there's also probably A way that teachers relate to the people that they are teaching, they're engaging with. You mentioned I probably had a couple or a teacher that made history come alive for me at some point. And that's true. I actually had two teachers that I can, you know, look back on Mrs. Zimmerman in eighth grade and Mr. Bennett in 10th and 11th grade. That, and I'm, you know, as I'm like thinking back, I'm like, what was it about their teaching style? You know, I. Mrs. Zimmerman was a really good teacher. Mr. Bennett was maybe more like an absent minded professor type. But, but the subject matter, they just, they had a way of making the subject matter really engaging. But maybe even beyond that, like, I think Mrs. Zimmerman in particular, like, really related to me as a kid. And I think the entire class, not just me, and you know, was very understanding and empathetic and, you know, could really draw things out of you. And again, I think this is something really good. Copywriters do that as well.

Meredith Cooley (18:05)

Absolutely true. You know, I talk, I think a lot about what were the things that kept me in teaching for so long. And one of them was the relationships, was the relationships that I was able to build with students. And in the end you, you kind of realize obviously the content that you're teaching matters and the skills that you're teaching really matters. But none of that is even possible without the relationship building skills. Because kids, kids learn from teachers that they trust and that they can tell, care about them. And I think that having those, having those sort of empathetic listening skills and intuitive listening skills as a copywriter is very valuable on so many levels. You know, from just the relationship that you're building with clients and you know, being able to understand what they need, being able to maybe intuit things that they're not saying. But also, you know, I do a lot of work that's ghost writing work and customer success story writing. And I talk to a lot of people, I interview a lot of people. And so being able to quickly get people to trust you and want to open up and speak about things in a way that they might not otherwise is, can make or break a piece of content, you know, to be able to tie in, you know, not, you know, not things that are of shock value, but just. Just a way to, to help people speak more humanly about what they're doing. I think, and I do think that all humans can kind of tell off the bat, you know, is this person, is this person creating a space that feels trustworthy and that feels casual enough or you know, conversational enough that that is really going to come out in, in what they're saying.

Rob Marsh (20:09)

Yeah, I think empathy and that ability to relate to people comes really natural to some people and maybe less naturally to others. And I'm, and I'm guessing that a lot of copywriters sort of, you know, live across that spectrum. You know, some of them are very empathetic and understanding. It's really easy to relate to the customer and others maybe struggle. Do you have any ideas or suggestions for developing that or leaning into, you know, that skill set so that it does become more natural over time?

Meredith Cooley (20:41)

Yeah, that's such a great question, because I do think there can be two sides to this business. You know, there can be. You can be a copywriter who really avoids conversations and sort of is like, oh, just going to sit behind my computer and work and then email things and, you know, not really worry about talking to people. But I think so much opens up if you are a person that's willing to lean into those skills. So I would say, you know, a few things that I would suggest in order to help develop those skills and even just practice them. One of the easiest things is setting up some, like virtual coffee chats, you know, reaching out to people in your network or reaching out to people in the industry and just saying, like, I'd really love to connect and hear about what you're doing and, you know, chat about what I'm doing. Just to sort of build those connections can be really helpful. You know, and it can be a 20 minute phone call or 20 minute video chat, you know, that, that helps to build those kind of human conversation skills. So that would be one thing that I suggest, you know, maybe like asking, asking, even like asking other people, like, how do you feel comfortable in a conversation? What are the things that you do to. To open up a conversation that helps somebody else to feel comfortable? You know, I think there can be a way to create that space intentionally and to practice doing that.

Rob Marsh (22:18)

And I suppose, I mean, not every client needs to be a fit. There may be some people we just don't jive with for whatever reasons. And I think it's an unfair comparison to compare them to, say, kids in a classroom, because every kid matters in a way, maybe every client doesn't quite matter. There are, there are some clients that we can let other copywriters work with if we're not jiving with them. But what you're saying about developing relationships, you know, a couple weeks ago on the podcast, I was speaking with Tiana Aspergen and she was talking about building friendships as a client finding exercise and you know, how important it is not just to have a network of contacts, but to actually have relationships, real true friendships with people that we work with, that we associate with, that we might share, share leads with, all of that. So I think, yeah, I mean, it's important for more than just the reason of understanding your customer.

Meredith Cooley (23:17)

That's absolutely true. And I, you know, looking when I look at where I am now, as opposed to where I started a few years ago, I have a, you know, at this point, like a pretty big network of, you know, not only kind of marketers that I know as an acquaintance, you know, on LinkedIn, but I also have people that have become real friends that we check in with one another regularly and we have calls regularly to talk about business, to talk about life. And it really does make a difference, I think, in the work that we do, you know, and not, not just for, you know, having relationships and definitely as a client finding exercise, but also in that feeling that it can become sort of lonely and isolating, you know, and that it's really helpful to have those relationships and have an understanding of what other people are doing in their business and, you know, how you can help one another as well. I definitely agree with that.

Rob Marsh (24:17)

One of the things you mentioned about, you know, your skill set as a teacher and translating that into copywriting, you said that you were able to take like these, these hard to understand or complex ideas and break them down into a way that, you know, you had to teach them to somebody who didn't understand them at all. And you know, again, this is another, I think, another skill that copywriters can really benefit from. So, you know, as you think about that skill set, this is another one, you know, like, is there a way to develop that? Is this, you know, is it a practice of, of saying, okay, explain it to me, like I'm five kind of a thing or. Yeah, I mean, how does that develop as well?

Meredith Cooley (24:59)

Yeah, I think that can be an intentional practice. And you know, particularly if you, you know, I think you could do it two ways. I think you can. You can start with things that you know really well and then really, as you said, think about it in terms of how would I, how would I write this out step by step? You know, how would I explain this to somebody that's never heard this before? It's funny. This is maybe a funny sidebar, but I have a six year old daughter and she loves the show Bluey and they play this game on the show called Born Yesterday. And so my husband has gotten a kick out of playing this game with her. And he'll just, you know, they'll be in the car riding to school, and she'll be like, oh, look at that. And just he'll, all of a sudden he'll say, oh, I don't know what that is. I was born yesterday. And then she has to find a way to express, explain whatever it is that she's talking about or she's seen or she wants him to understand in a way that you would explain to somebody who's never seen or heard of that before. And it kind of reminded me of this idea of, you know, how can you really pull something apart so that it's, you know, you're looking at the basic level, but then you're able to also bring it up a little bit because, you know, especially for me, I'm. I'm writing for educators, I'm writing for district administrators who are very educated, who are very smart, but who might not know the ground level stuff of the science of reading, for example. They might not have that background. They might have a different type of background. So being able to look at, okay, here's the research, here are the basic concepts. And then being able to, on the next level, say, and this is how this applies to you and why you need to know this and what you can do about it is really helpful. And I think just looking at all those different avenues of what are going to be the pillars of understanding that someone needs to have about this, you know, almost like a five W's, like who, what, where, when, why, can be a really helpful way to approach that in the beginning. And I think after you have that practice, it becomes a little bit easier. But a great, I do think a great practice is to start with something you're not so familiar with and learn a little bit about it, and then to try that. Because when you are doing something from your own expertise, it's very easy to make assumptions about what other people might already know, you know, And I think that's the beauty of coming from a teaching background, is that that's what you're used to doing. You know, you have a classroom full of students and you really don't assume anything. You kind of start from the beginning not knowing exactly what each student is bringing to the table.

Rob Marsh (27:53)

I think this skill becomes really important too, especially as we choose a niche. Because, you know, as you work with four or five or 10 or 20 clients in the same niche, we start to assume maybe that everybody has the baseline of knowledge. It's the curse of knowledge that, you know, that we have. And we can make some assumptions that people are understanding it. And so review revisiting this on a project and really stepping down and trying to understand who exactly the customer is and what is their baseline of knowledge. Do we need to break things down more simply or, you know, can we make some assumptions about, you know, they do know these five or six things already, and we can sell at a higher level or we can write about things a little bit differently because of that. Yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of thinking through the, you know, there's times when this is a great skill set, and there's maybe times where you can, you know, set it aside a little bit. But being able to make whatever it is you're talking about clear and actionable is really the critical part here.

Meredith Cooley (28:51)

Exactly. And I think, you know, it's. As one of the things I talk about when I'm teaching teachers, this path is, you know, we start from. In teaching, like, you're really kind of used to this academic, formal way of writing. You know, you're writing formal emails to parents, you're writing formal emails to your administrators. And many times teachers are coming from, you know, formal education in terms of a graduate degree and having written along those lines for a long time. And that sometimes when you get into sort of the. Some of the nitty gritty of copywriting, you have to figure out a way to actually make it a little less formal and a little more conversational and a little more something that people are going to easily grab onto, you know, and not necessarily have to dig under the sophisticated language for the actual concept and the actual meat and potatoes of what you're saying.

Rob Marsh (29:52)

I mean, one way to do that is storytelling. And you mentioned earlier that teachers have to become really good storytellers in the classroom. So let's talk a little bit about that. You know, how. How do we become better storytellers and how can we use that skill set? And I think I'm asking this. I mean, we've talked about storytelling on the podcast dozens of times, but it's still kind of this nebulous idea. You know, what is a story? You know, do I. Does it need to, you know, involve conflict and change or, you know, how in depth does it need to be? A lot of people say, I'm not good at telling stories. So. Yeah. How do we develop this skill as well?

Meredith Cooley (30:26)

Well, I think that there's a few different things that I would use as go tos there and thinking about my background in teaching storytelling with students, we talk about this idea of like a story mountain, right? Where you're spending time at the beginning developing the background and the setting and, you know, talking about the characters and getting people invested. And then you're building and you have some conflict, and then you kind of get to the climax of the story, the cliffhanger, what's going to happen, and then you resolve things on the other end of the story mountain. And that's great as a framework. I think that one of the things that I actually really love most about writing and writing on a higher level is that you have all these frameworks that are so important and that you learn them and they become so ingrained and then you realize, oh, actually I can break some of these rules and it can make it more exciting, it can make it stand out, it can make it better. So one of the things that I suggest is go ahead and write out a version of this story that you want to incorporate. Write out the whole thing, beginning to end, or think through the whole thing, beginning to end. And then I might tell people, don't start at the beginning, start in the middle. You know, drop your reader right into the action of what's happening, whether that's a dialogue, whether that's a, a realization, whether that's, you know, something that's like this big thing that's happening in the story because that's what's going to hook people, you know, people, you know. Yes. When you're watching a movie, you want someone to develop the characters because you want to be invested and you want to, you know, feel something about the story, and that's really helpful. But when you're using story to pull someone in quickly and you need them to then keep reading, jumping in in the middle is a. Is a really great strategy for getting people hooked quickly and then being able to kind of back up and, and talk about where you're coming from, how you got there, why it's important. But I think that's one of the things that I would suggest is practicing, like thinking through a story and then thinking about what is actually the best part of this story. Like, what is the part that I think people are going to be the most interested in, and starting with that to see what happens. The other thing I would, I would say is one of the most important things about storytelling in general is being able to really show someone what's happening through descriptive language, like sensory based language, instead of just making it a narrative play. By play, you know, people relate to feelings, as we've kind of said already before. And being able to, to be drawn into that immediately, to just to be like, oh, you know, I know a time that I felt exactly that way is what makes people want to keep reading. And I know, you know, as a, you know, a parent and a full time working parent, I don't have as much to time as I would like to for fiction reading and for that type of reading. But when I do have the time and when I come across those passages that just, I mean, you know, literally can like stop you in your tracks or take your breath away, it's. You realize the power of, of words and the power of that type of storytelling. It's incredible. And it really can make such a difference in writing and in and in copywriting.

Rob Marsh (34:11)

Yeah, I mean storytelling is a, is a huge difference maker for all kinds of reasons. I think one challenge that a lot of writers have when it comes to telling stories is they oftentimes feel like the topics that they're hired to write about don't lend themselves to storytelling. So you mentioned, you know, at the beginning of your career you're writing for insurance companies and you know, other, I mean, I can imagine, I can think of a couple of stories that you know, might go with say life insurance. They're not all happy stories. Stories, yeah, say, or you know, even health insurance stories. Which, you know, most of the stories we hear about that kind of stuff are nightmarish and not the kind of thing that make you, you know, want to, to you move further with a product or service. So you know, when it comes to those kinds of services and I mean, and you write in, in I think high tech now and for you know, education based SaaS, that kind of stuff. How do you use stories for these technical niches that maybe feel like they're more about the features than the stories and they're more about the engineered product as opposed to what it does for a customer.

Meredith Cooley (35:24)

Yeah, that's a great question. I think the thing that I lean most into is really trying to connect, you know, looking at the features but really trying to connect to what is the benefit that someone is getting from this product. So I recently worked on a project that was. It's it, you know, it's basically like AI protection. So, so companies bring in this software to help, it's like a third party regulator almost to help protect businesses from certain things, data loss, things like that. But what they are doing is moving into the education space. And so they wanted Me to help with some messaging, with some writing to, you know, to gear more towards that audience. And what I really needed to do was look through all their, their, you know, messaging playbooks and think about what really is the purpose of this and how can I make it. How can I make it feel more urgent for the people that are going to be buying this, which is basically universities, university tech departments. And it really comes down to the human aspects, right? You know, yes, it's a, it's a big university. They're, you know, on the higher level. They need it for many things. But what are people really mostly going to care about? It's going to be the human stories. You know, in what ways is this going to change something for a student, you know, a single student that's attending that university? In what ways is this going to change something for a single professor working at that university? I think for most products, you know, even in the most complex tech products, there is someone on the other end of that that's using that or that's benefiting from that or that whose life is being made easier or who's very expensive problem is being solved. And I think if you can, can really dig underneath the idea of the features and find what are the benefits of this to that one person? You know, in copywriting, you talk about like, the power of one, you know, the one message to one person. And I think that part, that specific strategy is really important when it comes to looking for a story amidst jargon or amidst some. A complex concept or a complex problem that something is trying to solve.

Rob Marsh (37:55)

And if you can find those stories, obviously it makes a massive difference. And maybe the next step of the challenge is you've got that story now. How do you find that sensory language that you were talking about that connects again? Because a lot of this technical stuff is happening on our screen, so it doesn't smell like anything. There's no real kinetic movement, you know, other than maybe moving my fingers a little over a type, you know, a keyboard. So really trying to get it into the impact in their life so that you can describe something that, that connects. It's. It's not as easy as it sounds, at least by saying, hey, you just gotta tell a story, be a storyteller.

Meredith Cooley (38:35)

Absolutely. It's not as easy as it sounds. It takes a lot. You're right. It takes a lot of, you know, for me to make that point. This work takes a lot of bandwidth. You know, it takes a. It takes focused time to be able to sit down, look at things up Here, and then, like, allow yourself to drop into. What is the feeling of that? Like, who are the people that are impacted by this? How can I tell that story? How can I get underneath the, like, oh, more tech. Like, who cares? Like, it's tech. You know, like, how can you find the actual human story beneath that? And it really does oftentimes take a lot of thinking and a lot of digging and a lot of iterating, a lot of, like, writing something, realizing that's not it, and knowing that you need to dig a little deeper and find something else that's going to hook people in in a different way. But it's not an easy skill. You're right.

Rob Marsh (39:29)

So, you know, as you made this transition from teacher to copywriter, you know, one of the things that a lot of people struggle with is being taken serious in the new role. You know, because you were a teacher, you don't have experience, you haven't written before. What did you do to start to build your credibility and authority so that people could trust you to take on these first couple of projects? And now, as you've even grown farther, to switch, you know, from, say, insurance to ed tech and the kinds of writing that you're doing today?

Meredith Cooley (40:02)

Yeah, that was a huge thing for me was. Was the feeling of, you know, who is going to hire me, who is going to look at my background and think, oh, yeah, come right for us. And I think the beginning, the kind of getting scrappy at the beginning and saying to myself, I know that I'm capable of a lot of things, and also I need to start over here and prove that I can do any kind of writing, you know, that I can kind of take these jobs and do it well and be serious about it and, you know, do things on time and do what I say I'm going to do and show up in conversations. That was a. That was a really important part of it for me was. Was being the person that I said I was going to be and being the person that I knew I could be really kind of before I had broken through that wall, you know, and that can be tough. You know, it can be tough to be able to see that version when you're. When you're not fully sure about it yet. But I think that being willing to put yourself out there and try things is a big part of it. Another. Another thing that I think can be really helpful is to do some spec work in the industry or in the. In the niche that you want to write in. You know, I. I love to tell the students that I work with, you know, list out five dream clients. What are, what are five companies that you would love to partner with in this work, and then choose one and do a project. You know, create something, whether it's a blog post or it's, you know, some. A series, a series of emails for one of their products or an infographic. You know, do something that you feel good about that shows your skills. That's also going to bolster your own confidence and be a portfolio piece. You know, you can then begin to build a portfolio with work that is in the niche that you want to work in and that you could even use to pitch to someone if you wanted to. So I think, you know, part of it is the being willing to get a little bit scrappy and say, I'm going to take on some projects that, you know, I'm not sure about, but I'm going to, I'm going to give it a go, and I'm willing to do it for a little bit less money than I would like to because I need that experience. And then to kind of build each step off of that. And then, you know, as I said at the beginning, I do think that a huge, A huge factor in bolstering your own confidence and also feeling more serious about what you're doing can be going out and finding someone to help you and, and finding a coach or finding a mentor that really can kind of help to pull you up. I think that that is. Is a really, you know, not overlooked. I, I know many people do it, but I think also people hesitate to invest in themselves or invest in something like that when it really is such. I mean, it's a huge part of what I've been able to do over the past few years are all of the people that have helped me to get to where I am.

Rob Marsh (43:16)

Yeah, that's a major part of being able to improve and knowing that you're improving and not just, you know, repeating the same mistakes over and over. What did you do, Meredith, to find your first couple of clients as you made that transition, you know, again? And you. I, you said you were taking on all kinds of different projects, but how did you connect with the people that had work and that were willing to give you a shot when you had almost no experience at all?

Meredith Cooley (43:42)

Yeah, my first ever client I had from a referral, I was, because I was inside of a community. I was inside of a business or writing community, and somebody had posted, you know, oh, this, this guy who has a consulting firm is often looking for writers you might reach out. So that was the very first thing I did, was just send an email that said, um, you know, I'm looking for some, some copywriting work. This person said that you sometimes hire. I would love to chat if, if you think that, you know, if you need help and if you're, you know, I was very honest about where I was and my experience level, and I just said, I would love to. You know, I know that I can do this work, and if you're willing to give me a chance, I'd love to chat. And so eventually that did come through and I was able to do some, you know, that's kind of where all of the writing came in with all the different topics. And, you know, that really just gave me experience across the board doing different things. But, you know, outside of that, the most success that I had right from the Start was using LinkedIn was, you know, kind of changing my profile to, to reflect what it was I wanted to do, plus my background and my experience and really just starting to reach out and connect with people and, you know, in education, in ed tech, and to say, you know, this is what my background is, this is what my services are, if you need any help, I would love to chat. And that is how I got my first EdTech client was, was really just outreach on LinkedIn.

Rob Marsh (45:19)

Yeah, I mean, it's the same old, same old, right? Like, you have to do the work, clients don't find you. And so being able to go out and make a pitch. But I think the crucial thing with your first pitch is that it wasn't just cold out of the blue. You had a name or a person you could refer to, said, hey, this person mentioned. And so again, that starts that connection. And it may not be a warm pitch, but it certainly is warmer than coming out of the blue with. Just out of the blue.

Meredith Cooley (45:52)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I do, I do think that kind of back to the point that we were talking about before, the more you can connect with people and talk with people and just build relationships, the easier it's going to become to do things like that, to say, hey, I see that, you know, you're connected to this other person. Do you mind introducing me? Or, you know, just saying to people, you know, I'm looking to, I'm looking to do X, Y and Z. Do you know anybody that's, that needs help? Sometimes those relationships really can make all the difference, regardless of, you know, whether you're, whether you're definitely looking for work at that time or whether you're, you know, I think. I think really the smart thing is just to go. Just to start talking to people and connecting with people so that they get to know who you are as well. Integrity in this business, to me, matters a lot. You know, that people get to know who I am, get to know that I'm serious about what I do and. And that I'm going to show up in the way that I say I am. You know, I think that matters a lot. And the more people that can vouch for you in that way, the easier it becomes to do the things that you want to do in this business, I think.

Rob Marsh (47:08)

What do you wish you'd done differently as you made the switch from teacher to copywriter? What mistakes do you wish you had avoided?

Meredith Cooley (47:17)

Oh, well, I think that I. And I'm sure this is a very common one, actually, I think that I probably stayed too long on the level of doing really good work and not charging enough for it. You know, I think I've heard so many people say that, and it's so hard to do. You know, it's. It can be hard once you're working with someone consistently to say, you know, I'm really ready to move on from this, you know, can, you know, to have that conversation of. I know that my worth is my work, is work worth more at this point. So I think I probably held on to some of those early clients for longer than I should have. And that can be tough because it takes. It's your capacity, you know, it's your time. When I first started in that first year, I was teaching full time still. So I was, you know, taking sales calls in my car at lunchtime and working on projects at night after my daughter was asleep and in the early mornings when I could. It was really just. Everything was kind of pushed into the whatever pockets of time I had. So that time was a huge factor. And by the time I kind of got to the point that I realized, oh, this work is taking a lot of my time and it's really not paying me enough, you know, it had been longer than it should have been. So I think, you know, honing those skills, which is much easier said than done, but honing those skills to be able to have hard conversations and be able to be willing to let go of some things and trust that you're, you know, if you are putting in the hard work and reaching out to people, that you are going to get the projects that pay you more and are more worth your time is really important. And some of that is just, you know, plain old boring mindset work. You know, the work that's. That is reminding yourself of what you can do, of how far you've come, and being willing to put yourself out there and say that to people.

Rob Marsh (49:34)

You already mentioned your course, but you also have a newsletter. So I'm curious if people want to follow you or connect with you, learn more about what you're doing, what you're up to. Tell us a little bit about your newsletter, what you send out and where we can find it.

Meredith Cooley (49:49)

Yeah, absolutely. So my newsletter is, I like to say weekly, ish. It's, you know, mostly every Friday, but life is life as a parent and, and a business owner. So I try not to miss a week, but here and there it happens. But it's Friday mornings. It will land in your inbox if you subscribe. And it really is very specific to this, to the journey, the journey of, you know, how do I know that I'm ready to leave the classroom? What can I do to take steps towards learning more about copywriting, to. To trying out copywriting and, and really sort of the big work of making hard changes in your life. I think that, you know, being able to, you know, when I, when I started this business, one of my biggest dreams pretty fast was how can I be a person that reaches back and helps others to move along this path faster than I did? Right. You know, I think that that was the biggest thing about mentorship for me was I knew I was avoiding mistakes that others had made by, by investing in mentorship. And I think my newsletter is sort of that first step of, you know, here are some steps you can take. Here is one thing you can do each week to help move yourself in this direction, even if you only have 15 minutes a day. And really just talking about the different steps I've taken, the different systems and processes I've used along the way, and eventually offering help to people in the form of the specific course that I now have from classroom to copywriter.

Rob Marsh (51:32)

And where can we find it?

Meredith Cooley (51:35)

So the newsletter is called Turn the Page. And if you are okay with that, I would love to just link it right in the show notes. Probably the easiest way. Another way for sure. Great. Another way for people to find me is on LinkedIn, Meredith Rice Cooley on LinkedIn. And I have a link to subscribe to my newsletter there as well.

Rob Marsh (51:56)

Awesome. This has been a really interesting conversation. Look into your business. But more than that, just, just the idea of how we are all copywriters and, or, sorry, all teachers as copywriters and how these teaching skills really apply to, you know, what we're doing every day. So I appreciate you coming and sharing your thoughts on all of this. Thanks, Meredith.

Meredith Cooley (52:18)

Yeah, thanks so much, Rob. It was so great to be able to chat with you about this today.

Rob Marsh (52:28)

Thanks Meredith, for sharing your path from classroom to solitary home office, from teacher to copyright. If you want to follow Meredith, or if you're a teacher who would like to explore the possibility of becoming a copywriter part time or full time, jump on her list at the link in the show notes. If you're listening to the show on your phone, you should just be able to pull up the episode description and it should be right there. Listening back to this interview, as I prepared the introduction for this episode, I'm struck even more deeply by how much copywriters need more of the teacher's skill set when they sit down to write copy. And I'll bet that when you started listening to this episode, you didn't expect to get a copywriting lesson from Bluey. The Born Yesterday exercise can help content writers and copywriters connect better with customers who don't have the same level of experience and knowledge as they or their clients. Have we talked a bit about storytelling in this episode? If you'd like to dive a bit deeper into this topic, I highly recommend my interview last year with Matthew Dixie. It's episode 407, and it just might change the way that you think about what counts as a story and how we tell them. Okay, I think that's probably enough for today. Don't forget to check out Research Mastery, the proven research program that will help you write better copy and sell more. You can find out more about it at thecopywriterclub.com researchmastery that's the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you've heard, please share it with someone you know. If you don't know someone you can share it with, then visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever it is you listen to your favorite podcast and leave a review. I really appreciate that. If you haven't left a review recently, now's the time.

Meredith Cooley (54:02)

I promise.

Rob Marsh (54:03)

When you share the Copywriter Club Podcast, your friends will thank you. See you next week.

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