← The Corporate Director Podcast
The Corporate Director Podcast
Authentic leadership and curiosity in the modern boardroom
00:39:12
Director, author, and former C-suite executive Kathryn Henry joins this episode of the Corporate Director Podcast to explore what authentic, service-driven leadership looks like in today’s boardrooms. As a director on the board of Lululemon and author...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Corporate Director Podcast where we discuss the experiences and ideas behind what's working in corporate board governance in our digital tech fueled world. Here you'll discover new insights from corporate leaders and governance researchers with compelling stories about corporate governance strategy, board culture, risk management, digital transformation and more.
- [00:33]
B
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Corporate Director Podcast, the voice of modern governance. My name is Dottie Schindlinger, Executive Director of the Diligent Institute and I'm thrilled to be joined once again by my two incredible co hosts, Megan Day, strategy leader here at Diligent, and Kira Ciccarelli, Head of Research for Diligent Institute. Kira, Megan, how are you both doing today?
- [00:55]
C
Pretty well.
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D
Great to be here as always, Dottie.
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B
Well, I feel like we need to reflect on the fact that we're just back after the big holiday Appalooza and crushing defeat to Belgium here in the US so happy 250th birthday people, she said with a question mark at the end of that sentence.
- [01:19]
D
Surviving, maybe not thriving.
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B
What did you do over the holidays? Let's go there. Kira, how about you? What did you do this weekend?
- [01:25]
C
We were up in the Pocono. So it was, I wouldn't say we quite escaped the heat, but we certainly came down about 10 degrees from the highs in the Philadelphia area. So that was helpful.
- [01:37]
B
Yeah, the temperature topped like 103 in Philadelphia. It was incredible. It was so, so, so hot. And I have to just say, I don't know if you've read the news about what happened in Philadelphia on the 4th, but you know, we had a major storm rolled in literally right at the very moment when the fireworks were supposed to begin. And by major storm, I mean it was like thunder, lightning and tornado warnings and flash floods. It was bad. It was bad, bad, bad because of course it'd been so hot. And then a storm rolls in and storms are severe. So everyone had to clear the park. They had to like stop the concert. Cause they have that big welcome to America festival in Philadelphia every year and big name acts, they had to shut it all down and they decided they would ride out the storm. So do you want to guess what time the fireworks went off?
- [02:24]
D
11:30pm 5th of July,
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B
2:45am on the 5th of July. And let me tell you people, Philadelphia's not happy about that because everybody had just gotten to sleep, finally got their kids to settle down, finally got their dogs to stop freaking out. And then at 2:45 in the morning in Philadelphia, the world is ending because it's the biggest fireworks display Philadelphia has ever had with I don't even know how many explosives. And because there had been this major heat wave and this major storm, the smoke got so thick that you couldn't actually see the fireworks display. And then the smoke just hung in the Delaware Valley and created, like, terrible air conditions for about a full day afterwards. So that feels very on brand for the 250th.
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D
Lots of learning lessons for the team involved in the execution of that event.
- [03:23]
B
Yeah, you know, I. I did a lot of. I did a lot of, like, reflecting this weekend, I have to say, because, you know, 250 years of a democratic republic is nothing to sneeze at. Like, no one thought it would ever last that long. So I think that's actually something to be, you know, noteworthy, something to be noted. And I. And I rewatched all of Ken Burns American Revolution series, and I rewatched John Adams on. On hbo. And that was fun, by the way, to have the juxtaposition of the two things because, you know, it gives you that. And then, of course, I had to watch Hamilton, so I rewatched Hamilton on Disney. That's how I spent this weekend. And I got to tell you, I was. I was really. I wrote about this in LinkedIn, actually. I was really reflecting on governance of a country versus governance in a boardroom. And I spent some time kind of thinking about this. And I was really thinking about how during the founding of this country and in most boardrooms that I've ever been in, the really good conversations are the hard ones that. You know what I mean? Like, it's where people don't immediately agree. They have very entrenched opinions and they argue them passionately. And then somehow some way begin to find a path to compromise and come to something like a consensus, or at least they, you know, decide to just put it to bed with a vote and move on. And it's really hard work, and it's really satisfying work. And I was just reflecting on how I don't know that we still have that muscle as a country anymore. And I don't know what you both think about that, but I'm just going to lay that out there. I'd love to hear your thoughts about that. You know, good boardroom conversations are the heart.
- [05:08]
D
Absolutely. And muscle as a country. But also how many boards feel like they have that muscle as sharp as it needs to be? Because listening to you talk about that, my mind went immediately to, that's how progress happens. That's how things move forward. That's how innovation occurs. And so unless you are doing that, then you know the likelihood of you ultimately being successful in the long term, be it 250 years or 25 years, because what's the length of a public company these days? It's shorter and shorter. You know, the. Those types of conversations to move things ahead, I think need to be happening more frequently.
- [05:50]
B
Yeah, Megan, I think you're really onto something there. Right. You know, it is true. Being a good board member takes a lot of courage, and it also takes a lot of checking your ego at the door. And those are things that aren't always applauded. These days. I feel like we are in an era of big egos getting all the props. And, you know, I think about, like, the big personalities out there right now. You pick your. Pick your poison people. I'm sure you can come up with 10 names very quickly. They. They tend to get more rewards for the bigger their egos are. And yet, when I think about how this country came to be, when I think about some of the greatest moments of innovation of companies, when I think about some of the most exciting, satisfying boardroom conversations I've ever witnessed or been a part of, the magic happened when people finally set their egos down and focused on what was in the best interest of the whole. And what can we do right now with what we have available to get us out of this mess? You know, it's. Usually there's a mess, and we have to get out of it, and how can we move forward? That always has seemed to be when real progress happens. And so I was reflecting on this a lot over the weekend that I feel like we're at a breaking point in this country where we're gonna have to. Have to start to set some egos aside and figure out how to do things that are good for more than just a single individual. And I'm starting to see glimmers of it. I'm starting to see glimmers of that becoming attractive again as an idea. But it has felt for the last, probably decade, like me first was the norm and the thing that got all the attention and the applause.
- [07:49]
C
I think it's almost like we've lost sense for what the actual goal is. A lot of the time, like, yes, it no longer feels like the goal is solving the problem. It feels like the goal is convincing other people that you are right.
- [08:04]
B
Yes. Right. And. And why is that so important? I. You know, it is really interesting. Like, I. I. This is very naive of me to say out loud, but I've just never really understood why that was so critically important to some people. Like, why is being right more important than doing the right thing? I don't know. But I'm hopeful that we can start to move beyond that. And certainly, you know, look, it's been really, really great to be in other parts of the world this year because, you know, the US it's got a big population. It speaks with a very loud loudspeaker, but it is but one country in this world, and there are other places in the world that, quite frankly, are bigger superpowers now, and they have a different ethos, they have a different approach. They have more of a communal thought. And, you know, I'm not saying that I want to leave the U.S. but what I am saying is I think there are other models that are working, and it's instructive and useful to go see them now. I'm not saying any of them are perfect. I mean, far from it. They're as messy and as chaotic and as any other democratic effort is. But it is helpful to remember there are ways that you can approach decision making and ways you can approach deliberation that don't just look like I'm gonna convince you I'm right. I'm just gonna keep shouting at you until you back down and acknowledge I'm right.
- [09:30]
D
Well, I'm just chilling up here in Mandamistan, so it's all good for Megan.
- [09:38]
B
Well, listen, I know that was a weird little tangent, but, hey, I had
- [09:44]
E
to just share it.
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B
I do think it's a good segue, though, to the interview that I got to do today with Kathryn Henry. So, Kathryn Henry, she's on the board of Lululemon. She's someone that I got to meet at this retreat that I attended in February, and I really just thought she was terrific. And so we invited her to come and speak at Elevate this year. She's now part of our Trusted to Lead program, which we just launched last month or two months ago. She's got just such a fresh and interesting take about authentic leadership that I'm excited to share with this podcast. I think it'll resonate for a lot of people. So let's come back and talk about what we heard after we take a listen to the interview. Joining us on the corporate Director podcast today is Kathryn Henry. Kathryn is a director on the board of Lululemon and the recent author of a new memoir, Dime to say I Love you. Katherine, thank you so much for joining me on the show.
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E
Thanks, Dottie. It's always a pleasure to have a reason to hang out with you.
- [10:47]
B
Oh, I feel the same way. Well, listen, I want to start off by having you introduce a bit more about yourself to our listeners than just your name and title that I just rattled off. So maybe you could share a little bit about the path that brought you to board leadership. Sure.
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E
And it's definitely the path least traveled. Kind of like my career. I was actually in my executive role as an employee, as a C level executive at Lululemon, and I was in succession. I was going off to Harvard. My career was just taking off. It was fantastic. I'd been there for a handful of years, and my wife had been in remission from cancer and had some tests done, and the cancer returned throughout her body. So I left my job on great terms, but I left my job in order to deal with, you know, sometimes the kind of things that life throws at us. But during that time frame, the founder, Chip Wilson, reached out to see if I would be interested in taking a board seat that was basically associated with the family and with their ownership stake in Lululemon, and the board was amenable to it. And that is how I became an independent director. Definitely the path. Well, actually, at that time, I was not an independent director because I had then an employee, but that's how I became a board director.
- [12:08]
B
You know, it's so funny, Katherine, because I think every director I talk to about, how did you, you know, what was your journey to the boardroom? They all go, well, I did a very atypical journey, But I'd love to talk to you a bit more about how your personal journey influences the way you show up in the boardroom, because I think your personal story is so powerful. So how does that translate to the work that you do as a board member?
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E
I think one of the biggest things that shifted for me and how I show up as a board member, but just how I show up in life is because of the personal experiences. It almost served as an integration of all elements of my life into this just one person. So there were times prior in my life as an executive or as a aunt or as a sister or, you know, showing up differently, like putting on almost a different Persona. And after the experiences that I had that were pretty transformative, I guess I'd say it just shifted how I show up. And now it's like showing up just as the same individual, whatever room I happen to show up in. And it's been freeing, frankly. And it's kind of great to be in a boardroom and finally realize That I can be in that boardroom and still be the same person that I am everywhere else.
- [13:25]
B
It gives you really good, balanced perspective, I think, to just be one holistic person as opposed to different Personas in different situations. I know one of the ideas that you and I kind of bonded over is that we both see leadership as being a role of service. And I want to talk a little bit about how that plays out when you're a director. You know, what does leadership as service look like in practice for a director, especially when the stakes are really high. And I know you've been going through some pretty high stakes recently, so how does that look for you?
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E
Well, I think as a director, the service part of it is just a given, even more so than many other roles that we might play. And simply because we are independent directors in service largely to the shareholders and to creating long term value sustained for the company and for the shareholders. And how that's also, I say, evolved maybe a little bit from a service perspective is I've come to realize and believe very strongly that the long term value creation is not just around shareholder value, but it's also about value to all of the stakeholders of the company, whether it's the supply chain implications and things that might be impacted employees environment, the whole host of things that could be affected to guests and consumers that buy your products, to employees and being in service to what I would call kind of a greater good. Like what is it that you're bringing into the world that can, that can bring sustained value.
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B
I wanna broaden the last point you made a little bit, because in your book and in our conversations, you've talked about the importance of letting your guard down so that you can create the conditions for more honest conversation. I'd like to have you reflect a little bit on why that is so essential in governance. And also just how can boards effectively build that kind of trust, especially when things are really contentious.
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E
So where I'd start is the comment of letting your guard down. When we have our guard up, it means we have something to protect or something we're afraid of. And so that in and of itself puts us in a position of like, we have something to defend instead of an openness to what needs to happen here, what conversation needs to occur, and a place of being able to really listen. If we are constantly with our guard up, we're worried more about our position than listening and hearing what's going on in the room. So, and then the piece that comes on from that is the need to have honest conversations. So if your guard's up, you're not gonna. You're not gonna say what you really are thinking. And in order to be in a place with a group, to be able to have those honest conversations, there has to be a level of trust. And I believe that trust gets built outside of the boardroom, too. So we can't just all be sitting there as resumes around the room, of, what experience do you bring or what roles have you played? There's so much more to us, to our humanity, and to why we're at the table. So those are two things that really stand out. And I think as we look going forward to board roles, with AI coming in the boardroom, all of a sudden those experiences are going to have a different. Like you're going to have an AI bot or board member sitting at the table that has more experience and knowledge than you could ever have gleaned in your lifetime. So now what is your value that you bring to the table? And I think that's where trust, being able to hear things that aren't necessarily being said, see things that tells that there's maybe more information we need to dig into. Things like that become really important skills. Their emotional intelligence, their social intelligence that we can bring, and we can only bring that, really, as humans at this stage.
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B
I really love the idea, Katherine, of one of the roles of AI in the boardroom being helping us be the best versions of humans. I think that's actually a really powerful concept. And to that point, one of the things you just said was how important it is to be able to read what's not being said in the boardroom. So how do you read what's left unsaid? Why is that such an important leadership skill? And how do you hone that?
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E
I come back to trust again in the relationship. So when we really know people in the room, you can tell if there's something they're holding back. And it's, you know, I mean, like the ultimate is twins that, like, know what each other are thinking and what they're gonna say. And that comes through the. The depth of connection people have. So I think there's real value in having meaningful, authentic relationships and connections. And I think some of the highest performing teams and boards and groups of people coming together, that high level of performance comes because they can read things that might not be stated. And I think that's the kind of standard we should hold ourselves to, is how can we have these kind of real, deep, authentic connections so that we can perform at the highest level we Can. If you're looking at professional athletes, right, how do they train? What do they do to be the best they can be? How do we translate that into what would a high performing board look like? And what do we need to do to push ourselves to the highest level of performance?
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B
We can bring more coaches, more and better coaches and more.
- [19:04]
E
More authenticity. Right. It's like, for sure, it's so easy at certain levels to just show up as an ego in the room. It's like I just. And it's that protect instinct. It's the. I'm not going to let my guard down because I don't, you know, I don't want people to see what's really there. I need them to see what I want them to see. God, we just need to get out of living life that way. It's just such a complete and total waste of time.
- [19:31]
B
Such a good point. And actually it's a good segue because I wanted to follow up with you. When we were together at Elevate in Atlanta in April, you shared this idea of having a broader aperture, kind of seeking perspectives rather than defending positions. I think that ties into what you've just said. You know, if we're looking to kind of protect our egos and make sure we have the best version of ourselves on display, we're not really seeking perspectives. We're kind of shutting things down rather than opening things up. So I'd love to hear your perspective on the best way for directors to cultivate that mindset, especially when they're overseeing big, complex issues like strategy, culture, or risk. How can they invite more perspective rather than defending positions?
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E
One of the things I love is I always think about being more curious than afraid. Some of the best leaders I've had the pleasure of being around or even working for are the ones that are just really curious. They come to a problem, they come to a challenge, they come to an issue with more of a beginner's mindset. You know, we do have to bring our expertise and that's powerful. Like, we have experience and we can utilize it and it's a good thing. But the moment we start thinking that we have all the answers, we're completely in a limited space. There is no creativity in that space. But in a beginner's mind, the possibilities are truly endless. And I think there needs to be space for that. It can't be the only space we operate from, without a doubt, but there has to be space for us to be more curious, to have that beginner's mind and to Listen to someone who maybe you've got 30 years of experience and someone else walking in has two. You know what? They may have some really interesting perspective that you should listen to, and it might just broaden your aperture a little bit on something.
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B
Is that an argument in favor of boards kind of loosening the restriction against people that have never served on a board before joining their board? Do you feel that having someone who comes in with a total newbie mindset is a real advantage in some cases?
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E
I think to some extent that that can bring benefit, yes. But I also think that someone coming in new to a board also needs to. We need to make sure they understand what the responsibilities are. There are very clear fiduciary responsibilities. Especially, you know, it depends. Are you on a public board? Are you on a private board? Are, you know, what. What is the structure of the company? But there needs to be. If someone is coming in with no experience there, there needs to be a clarity that and an education on just what. What are your core responsibilities here? And I kind of come back to the greatness equation, which, you know, there's four things that. That really need to be in play for someone to thrive. And the first one is they do have to have enough skills to be able to do the job you're asking them to do. And so being a board member, there are some skills that are needed. That being said, they can be developed, right? You can go and get certifications. You can. There are a lot of ways to get those skills. So I would say a conditional yes to that question. But I definitely think having people come in that aren't just, yeah, I've been here. I've done this years and years and years. I'm an expert board member. I know everything there is to know. Okay, good. Let's get some people who maybe have a little bit more curiosity. And maybe sometimes it's fair to ask, well, why do we do that? You know, sometimes. Sometimes we continue to do things the same thing. And it's. The answer is because we've always done it that way. Well, maybe now we shouldn't do it that way anymore. And having someone who would actually have the courage to question some of that, I don't think that's a bad thing.
- [23:31]
B
That's really great. I do think the idea of having an expert board member is getting harder because I just think about what's on the board's bingo card right now, and I think about, you know, AI disruption and geopolitical uncertainty and, you know, what's happening with economic policy. And what's happening with the climate and rising shareholder expectations and, you know, additional shareholder activism on and on and on and on. It's a big mountain o stuff that directors have to deal with right now. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on what qualities you think are going to define the most effective directors over, let's say, the next three to five years. Like, if we're onboarding someone today, what are the skill sets we should really be looking for, the quality we should be looking for to get us the best directors for this next cycle?
- [24:15]
E
I really believe a core skill is going to be their ability to work with others and their ability to work with uncertainty and to go with it and to be able to operate in that space because that is the space that we're continuing to be in. And I think we're going to be in more and more of that space as our decisions are not just solely around the P and L. And you know, whether you're, you know, what your margins are and how much money you're making for a shareholder, it's like, no. How much damage are you doing in the environment or how much value creation are you doing beyond just pure financials? You know, how are you taking care of your talent in a way that goes beyond just when they walk in the door to work, you know, how are their lives being impacted by you? So I really think that boards that can acknowledge the complexity of what we're dealing with, acknowledge that it's going to take more of a village to solve these problems. And how we work together is really key. And also the humanity of it all, AI starts to really just change. And AI is not always, we know, like I give instructions to mine, it's like, I want you to give me a confidence level. Are you making stuff up? Because it can, right? You know, is this sourced? Do you have, you know, data that can support these things that you're telling me yes or no? And it's very, very helpful. A lot of people don't necessarily do that. And so they look at this as well. This is fact based. It's like define facts, right? We have a lot of people out there that are creating their own realities with facts that have no basis in reality, but they're touting them as such. So even AI, we need to make sure is informed. And the LLMs are actually sourcing real, true, accurate fact based information, not something that's been created in order to spin story to support perhaps an outcome or something along those lines. So coming back to what the boards are going to need, I think their ability to operate in a complex environment, their willingness to question the status quo, their willingness to question what is true, what is accurate, and their ability to respectfully work together in an environment where you have people that probably have very diverse views and very diverse sets of experience. Because I think that diversity of experience, of emotional intelligence, of social intelligence, of intellectual capability, the diversity of that around the table is going to be a differentiating factor on how well performing and how capable a board can be.
- [27:12]
B
I love that. Well, Katherine, before I let you go, there are three questions we like to ask every guest that joins us on the show. So the first question is, what do you think will be the biggest difference between boardrooms today and 10 years from now?
- [27:26]
E
Well, I think what we just spoke to, I think boardrooms 10 years from now, if they're really going to be serving the complexities of the things we have going on in the world, they're going to have to hold a cast of characters around that table with very broad and diverse sets of experience, be it global, be it socioeconomic, be it just corporate experience or functional experience. I think that the diversity of skills that you want around that table is going to be much broader and not from a nice to have, but from a must have. So how they can work together effectively when you've got people from all different walks of life, that's going to be fun. And I look forward to a time where all those walks of life can come together, respect each other, and actually become a sum of a whole that's truly greater than the sum of the parts. I think that's a direction we're heading and one I would love to embrace.
- [28:34]
B
I hope you're right.
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E
I do too.
- [28:36]
B
I hope you're ready. Well, the second question I want to ask you, what was the last thing that you read or watched or listened to that made you think about governance in a new light?
- [28:46]
E
You know, a book I'm in right now is Abundance. And one of the things I've really been pondering is that was so great, and in particular it relates to governance, is just around how we need governance. But also governance can go too far. Governance can go to such a place that it stagnates any kind of innovation or creation or growth. And so how do we make sure that we're balancing appropriate governance and structure and process while still enabling or allowing the space for innovation and creativity and growth, those messy things that we need as well.
- [29:31]
B
I love that. And finally, Katherine, what is your current passion project?
- [29:37]
E
I have two that really come to mind. And there's a thread between them and what they are at their core. It's both around kind of mentoring or supporting youth or supporting people earlier in their careers. One is Women Leaders for the World. So a mentor in that program that is just supporting a lot of women in everywhere from. It could be Uganda or Africa or the United States. It could be anywhere in the world doing things that are NGO type products, projects, or for profit even, or just other nonprofit, just bringing change, bringing kind of light in the world in the kind of work that they're doing. And the others, if given a chance. Here in Napa, it's just a local group that's been around for a long time that helps young people in high school get to get to another. Another level in their life, whether it's through college, whether it's through the trades, but providing support to ones that don't really have a lot of support in their. In their home life, naturally, to give them a chance to. It's a tough transition for many from high school to get like, where do you go from there? And getting some kind of an education. It matters even in the trades, which frankly, is where I started my career. So those are two things that I care a lot about.
- [31:07]
B
Well, Katherine, I want to thank you so much for joining us on the show today. This has been a fabulous conversation, so thanks for being our guest.
- [31:13]
E
Thanks, Dottie. Always a pleasure to hang out with you.
- [31:17]
B
We've been joined today by Kathryn Henry. She's a director on the board of Lululemon and the author of a new memoir, A Dime to say I Love youe. Katherine, thank you for joining us on the show.
- [31:26]
E
Thanks, Dottie.
- [31:36]
D
Dottie, loved that interview. I was furiously taking notes. So many takeaways for me as a human being and as a leader. I mean, and to bring it back to what we were talking about before there is that. That tie in to your 250 commentary. I mean, I think Catherine really makes a compelling case that the best directors in this environment may be the most curious ones, not necessarily the ones most attached to being.
- [32:05]
E
Right, right.
- [32:07]
B
Most curious, not necessarily most knowledgeable. And that's to your point. Right. I think her. Her point which I. Which really resonates for me and I hope will resonate for a lot of our listeners is the importance of just always being curious and just having the courage to kind of show up as your whole self, your whole messy self, like just bring it all to whatever you're doing. I.
- [32:29]
D
That.
- [32:30]
B
That seems like an impossible task to Me, but I understand that as a
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D
goal, it's really getting there in 2020. Like, that was a big part of the awakening of COVID if you will. And I think we were headed in that direction of, like, showing up as your whole self in all aspects of your work. And I think this is a good reminder of that.
- [32:53]
E
Yeah.
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B
I will also just put out another shameless plug if you haven't checked out her memoir, A Dime to say I Love youe. It is a beautiful book. It's heartbreaking, but it's a beautiful book. And it's full of just really inspirational, uplifting messages about how to move forward, not just despite challenge, but because of challenge. And it really encapsulates her philosophy of how you show up authentically and how you lead your life and lead an organization and lead in the boardroom as your full, authentic self. It's really, really powerful. Kira, what was your takeaway?
- [33:30]
C
I think what stood out to me the most is the idea of a little bit what we were talking about earlier, just having the real conversation and having perhaps the difficult conversation. And I think it's especially important in the boardroom when it comes to, like, potentially calling out not so great behavior in the way that the board has been operating. I think we've seen that as a trend again and again with, like, how directors think about board evaluations, for example, or what are the ways that they think that their governance processes could be improved. Those conversations are absolutely worth having, even though they might not be the most fun ones to have.
- [34:08]
B
I totally agree with you. It's got my wheels turning because we've got upcoming director dinners and events that we've got to plan. And I'm now kind of thinking maybe I want a session on having the hard conversations in the boardroom. I think, you know, it is really interesting. When I was in university, I. You know, by design, we had to take courses on sort of civil discourse and rhetoric, and I don't know that those things are necessarily enforced anymore. You know, I feel like now we're in an age of social media where we just scream at each other across the void and say whatever the most hurtful thing we can come up with or the funniest thing we can come up with, and we don't really want to hear the answer. We just put it out there and move on with our day. And, you know, I feel like there's more of an art of conversation that is so important for spaces like boardrooms, for spaces like governments, that that's a muscle we shouldn't let atrophy or.
- [35:05]
C
It's either that or. And then I think the reaction and the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction and is then your natural instinct is to not say anything at all because you don't want to cause more conflict.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah.
- [35:18]
C
And then you end up keeping things in that maybe should be brought to discuss. But you think to yourself, I don't want to cause a problem. There's already been so much drama over X topic. I'm just not going to say anything at all because I don't want to get into this.
- [35:31]
D
That's where you need a strong board chair. And I think this, that's. This is the thing that I think comes up the most in. In conversations with board chairs, but also other board members about what sort of
- [35:43]
B
makes or breaks a great board.
- [35:46]
D
And it's that leadership and, you know, to come back to courage for the board chair to really be the one that makes sure that this is happening around the table.
- [36:00]
B
I think that's exactly right. Yes. I mean, it is up to the board chair to sort of help reinforce it and make sure that it's happening, but it is. You know, the board chair doesn't have any more legal authority than anybody else in that boardroom. It's incumbent on every director to have the courage to speak up, you know, to say something, to call it out, to name the elephant in the room. Even if it's. Even if it's going to take a little longer on the agenda, even if it's, you know, something that has to happen during an executive session, even if it's something that has been talked about before, if it hasn't come to a good resolution for the shareholders and stakeholders of the organization, it's incumbent on you to say something. And that does take courage. You know, I don't want to sugarcoat how hard that is. It's incredibly hard. I mean, I think all the time about, you know, former podcast guests that we've had who have done the right thing in really bad circumstances and been nothing but punished for it. Just, you know, had their careers destroyed, had their lives upended, but they hung in there and did the right thing. On the back end, things turn around and go better. But I'm not saying it's easy. It's just important to do. It's important to do. It's important to have that courage and to have that backbone and to know that, you know, there may come a time where you have to make a hard choice, like firing the CEO or declaring a bankruptcy or ending a beloved project. You know, you have to have that courage. You have to be able to have that courage to be a good director. Well, this has been a very introspective episode, very philosophical. But of course that was going to be the case when we had Catherine Henry on because she is such a deep thinker and I think of her as a philosopher. She's got a real way of seeing the world that I find very interesting and compelling and so happy to share that with our audience. Would love to get your feedback. By the way, if you've got a comment and you want to share it with us, you can reach all three of us at podcastdiligent.com, we'd love to hear from you. But for now, that wraps up another episode of the Corporate Director Podcast, the Voice of Modern Governance. I'm Dottie Schindlinger and I've been joined by my two co hosts, Kira Ciccarelli and Megan Day. We'd like to say a few special thank yous, first and foremost to our boardroom philosopher, Kathryn Henry, to podcast producers Terry Tirrey, Steve Clayton and Kira Ciccarelli, our sponsors for the show, including kpmg, Wilson Sonsini and Meridian Compensation Partners. And most especially, thank you to Diligent for continuing to put up with this show. If you like our show, please be sure to give us a rating on your podcast. Player of choice, five stars only, please. You can also listen to our episodes and see more from Diligent Institute by going to diligent.com resources. Thank you so much for listening.
- [38:37]
A
You've been listening to the Corporate Director Podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about corporate governance and tools to help director do their job better, visit www.digent.com. thank you so much for listening. Until next time,