Dottie Schindlinger (2:49)

Well, history's on his side in this regard because there are plenty of examples of this. I mean, I don't know if you're a fan of the show on HBO called the Gilded Age, Megan, but it feels, it feels eerily relevant. There was a whole episode about the Pinkerton strike at Homestead in Pittsburgh about steelworkers demanding, you know, like, not dying on the job in droves. And, you know, it's happened before. I think, you know, it's definitely worth flagging. It's definitely worth having a conversation about. Boy, it'd be great if we could get this right once, get this right one time, rather than just going, yep, that's a potential problem. So let's go headlong into it and have a major destabilizing force that upends the economy and causes us decades worth of grief. I mean, it'd be great if we got this right one time. But no, I mean, it's a serious topic of conversation that I've heard not just from Jamie Dimon, but I heard from directors at roundtables that we did all last year where under the protection of Chatham House rule, they will say, we're really concerned about what happens when, you know, there are wholesale sections of white collar jobs that are now eliminated and we don't have a plan for what to do with those professionals.

Megan Day (3:58)

Yeah.

Dottie Schindlinger (4:00)

Not least of which because it disrupts things like the pipeline to leadership. Right. If the way that you've always grown great leaders at your company was they kind of cut their teeth on the basic stuff and grow up through the ranks and then make amazing leaders because they understand the whole job well, if every part of that ladder gets eliminated, how do you get great leaders? Like, where do they come from? It's an open question and we're starting.

Megan Day (4:23)

To see, I think, at Davos a little bit of a shift around that. Again, it's not the headcount reduction. It's about capability expansion. Brad Smith from Microsoft frames it as a race. If humans stay static, machines win. But if AI is used to upgrade human capability, the machines can't catch up or they're not going to catch up for a long, long time. And that, I think is something that we all need to internalize. That the competitive advantage is not just having AI, it's how quickly your workforce, your board, your entire organization learns to use and embrace AI.

Dottie Schindlinger (5:05)

So this is a really good segue, Megan, to the conversation that I got to have with Earl Newsom. He's the CIO of Commons, Inc. But he's also on a couple boards and it was great to talk to him about how do you bring a technologist mindset into Board work. I feel like this is the central question, right? We're hearing boards talk about how they're trying to find more technology talent to bring onto the board. We're seeing a big exodus of board members off of boards. Who knows if part of the reason is they're feeling they don't really know enough about technology and they're ready to like, jump off the bus at this point. But I think it was great to have that conversation with him. And so why don't we give that a listen and then we'll come back and reflect a little on the. Some of the things that he said.

Megan Day (5:43)

Great.

Dottie Schindlinger (5:53)

Joining us on the Corporate Director podcast today is Earl Newsom, chief information officer at Cummins Inc. And board member of First Independence Bank. He's also a former board member at Beacon Building Products. Earl, thanks so much for joining us on the show.

Earl Newsom (6:07)

Thank you, Dottie. Thank you for the invite. This is. What a fantastic day because it's snowing outside. It's great to be insight with you in the war.

Dottie Schindlinger (6:16)

Well, you know, speaking of snowing outside, you and I had this amazing experience together at this wonderful program called Melum in Iceland. And that's where we got to know each other. And so for the benefit of the audience, I wondered if you could start by just saying a little bit more about your background, your career background and what you're currently doing for those who don't know you the way I do.

Earl Newsom (6:36)

Oh, sure. Thank you for the opportunity to do an introduction. So, yeah, I always tell my story this way about my background. I break it down into three tranches. A 10, 10, and a 20 year tranche. And so the first 10 years has always been I'm a military, I'm a West Point graduate, right? So I spent 10 years in Uncle Sam's army and then the 10 years in consulting from, you know, poor Android, as we used to call him at Anderson Consulting, all the way up to being a partner in Deloitte and Touche in the last 20 years has been in corporate America and most recently, as you mentioned in the intro, is that I've had the opportunity to serve on a couple boards, right? So I've served on the board of First Independence bank and I currently serve on that board. I've served on the board of Beacon Products, as you mentioned, and I've also had the opportunity to serve on the board of Navisite, which was a small services company, as well as I served on the board of Atmos, which was an internal spin out from Cummins. Most recently, I'VE gotten exposed to the board in many different ways. And so it's great to be having an opportunity to talk to you about that experience and anything else.

Dottie Schindlinger (7:51)

Well, the reason I really wanted to have you on the show, Earl, is that you've had this experience of making that transition from being a Chief Information officer to being a board member. And it's one of the things that is a high priority area for boards this year, finding technology talent. People that have a broad understanding of business practice, but then have deep expertise in technology, particularly in this, you know, new AI age that every company finds itself in. So I wanted to talk to you because I wanted to hear that story from the other side of the table, not from the non technology board member looking for technology expertise, but from someone who came into the board with that. I mean, how has sitting on both sides of the table kind of shaped your perspective on what boards most often misunderstand about technology and the role of the CIO or the cto?

Earl Newsom (8:37)

Well, that's a great question. I would say a couple things and I'll start first from my perspective as a technologist on a board, when you're a technologist sitting on the board and you're understanding from the board seat, you know, and you understand about the duty of care, the duty of loyalty, and you're learning about what boards are actually listening for and that sort of asymmetric, you know, information model that the boards have to operate within. The boards operate knowing less than the management often does about the business that they're in. Right? And so when you talk to the board, you got to talk to them from that perspective. So my experience of being on a board is learning how to better present to my board. And so you learn to be a better board presenter, right, by understanding this is the way boards operate, this is the information disadvantage they may operate within. So you got to be clear, succinct and work with them to get an understanding of whatever it is you want to present. So I've become a better executive, right, by board membership. On the other side, I think about what companies need to be thinking about to not only survive, but thrive in the current age as we've gone from digital to cyber to AI. Emphasis about how these major disruptions, right, are impacting organizations and industries. It is often said now, and I love this saying, he who wins AI in their industry wins their industry, right? And so if our duty of loyalty and duty of care is to help the organizations that we're responsible for win their industry and win in an appropriate way and not only survive, but thrive these disruptions of cyber and digital and AI. You know, we need that technologist mindset at the board level to ask the questions of management so we can actually execute our duty of loyalty and duty of care. Primarily the duty of care. Right. And being responsible for ensuring that our organizations not only survive but thrive through these upcoming disruptions. Again, whether they be digital, whether they be cyber, or whether they be AI or all of those things are disruptions that a technologist on your board can actually help you manage through.

Dottie Schindlinger (11:03)

So I love the idea of onboarding a technologist to help the board have more of a technologist mindset. But my observation, Earl, and maybe this is naive, but my observation is often that's not what happens. I think what often happens is a technology expert is brought onto the board and then is unintentionally siloed as the tech person. And so every time there's a question that comes up in board discussion is any technological aspect, every head whips around to look at that person, waiting patiently for them to have the magic answer. So what should good look like, Earl? How should this work differently? That's. That's clearly not the best practice. So how should you really fully integrate a technology director into the board?

Earl Newsom (11:45)

Well, I think that's a very important. Especially if this that person's first board assignment. I think a couple things that need to happen there and maybe I'll put forth a slight recipe. Right. Number one is that board person who's coming onto the board as a technologist again needs to understand the full range of responsibilities for the board and do their own education. Right. Using tools such as Diligent and others and making sure that you understand, become certified in areas of board, actively participate through that sort of education first. So become educated. Right. Know how to read a financial statement. Then I think you, you join the committee, volunteer to join the committee. Don't just be the tech person on the committee. You know, get. Get into the comp committee. Right. Or the non gov committee. Right. Or whatever other committee, the risk committee. If you're in a financial institution, you know, if you can be on those other committees, you get the education, you get the assignment to be in those other committees. Then you start to contribute and ask good questions in those committees. That earns you the right not to be the technology guy in the organization. So I think we as technologists, we ought to earn the right not to be the technology person, but be the technology also person, right?

Dottie Schindlinger (13:10)

Yeah.

Earl Newsom (13:10)

So that you want to be the technology also person by being able to ask great questions about the balance sheet or whatever. And so I think that that earns you the right to do that. And then your fellow board members will see you as more than the technologists. Right. That's your responsibility. Right? To not be seen as only the technologist. I think the boards. I think that's also the responsibility of the chair of the various committees. Right. The chair should involve you and ask great questions and say, well, if the person's only being asked a technology question, are they being silenced in some way? I think the board culture ought to be managed by the chairman and find out ways to involve everybody actively in the committee or in the discussion. So I think both the responsibility of the chair to help drive the right culture of the board such that everyone gets an opportunity to participate and contribute, and then the individual has to do their due diligence to ensure that they're ready to contribute in some meaningful way.

Dottie Schindlinger (14:11)

You touched on this a little bit a moment ago, and I wanted to go a layer deeper on this idea of the technologist mindset. Could you share maybe an example of what a technologist mindset might look like on some of these bread and butter governance issues like strategy, capital allocation, risk? Maybe just give an example of how that technologist mindset kind of comes to play on some of these core topics for the board?

Earl Newsom (14:32)

I think this is a great question, and I'm going to answer that maybe slightly differently. And sometimes the technology mindset is not unique and different.

Dottie Schindlinger (14:39)

Sure, sure. Yeah. Fair. Totally fair.

Earl Newsom (14:42)

So when it comes to capital allocation, when it comes to, you know, how do we understand what our capital. I think that's a. You need to have the right mindset. And your technologist background may help you to think about it differently or, or ask different questions about how we're allocating our capital. But if you're doing a share buyback strategy, you know, you understand what that means too, Right? And so I think, you know, when you think about what does the technologist bring to the board specifically around strategy, it's around how do we anticipate and prepare for the disruptions that are right around the corner that technology is bringing? Technology, you know, Marc Andreessen saying, software's eating the world, right. So what does that mean to our company? When software eats our company, what does that mean? And how do we think about that differently from a strategic standpoint so that we're around 10 years from now. Right. And so that's what the technologists will bring a mindset about what happens to Our industry when software eats it. So that's your strategic hat. And then I think the risk hat is as we start to embark on this world of technology, how do we understand the risk associated with any technology implementation? Any risk associated with access or digitalization or aitization? I make that word up and now somebody will use it. Aitization, right. So as we do those kinds of things, we're going to inherit more risk. Right. As we move more and more into the virtual digital AI realm, our risk profile changes. Right. And we need to think about risk differently. So I think strategically, what happens when software eats your industry, what you're going to be response and are we thinking about that in advance? So as we think about strategy, how we think about it, and when we think about risk, right. You know, what are the risks associated with any implementation of technology? And I think the technologist mindset, having been there and done that, that's where it's different. Right. You know, you know, I, I could tell you, you know, I could try to describe to you that the plate is that the stove is hot, but if you've never touched a hot stove, you don't really know, right? Yeah, it's really hot. No, trust me, I've touched one. I know this is hot. You never want to do that again. And so I think we're the ones who can see the hot stove in the room when it comes to technology.

Dottie Schindlinger (17:10)

So I've been asking you to wear your board hat and sort of answer these questions from the perspective of being a board member. So I want to switch that up a little bit and ask you a question from your CIO hat. What are some of the things that you wish your board had done differently engaging with you and your team? You know, if you could give boards kind of a playbook for how to partner effectively with their CIOs or their CTOs, what would you put on that list?

Earl Newsom (17:33)

Wow, what a great question. You know, if I think about what, you know, what would I do differently or what would I ask the board to do differently with engaging with the cio? And again, and maybe I'll do this from, you know, both vantage points been on boards and then as well as presenting to boards, you know, I think, and I'll be fair to board members here in that, I guess the way I think about this is this, is that there are organizations that may not see their digital advantage fast enough. Right. And so what we really want boards to do is to really help push management to really be thinking about these just from a Strategic standpoint, are we, are we really understanding what our digital or AI dividend should be? And are we asking our technology organizations to, to help us benefit from that advantage? Right. And so how do we not become blockbuster? How do we not become, you know, the next Kodak? Right. And so, you know, boards should be really asking those questions of their technologists and helping their technologists explain to their companies that this disruption can be real and we can support, they can support their technologists by saying, hey, do you have a perspective on this? Right. And are you being listened to? You know, are you having the opportunity to have your voice heard in a way that what should be listened to? And can we help you tell that story? Right. And so when I think about, you know, you know, when I sit in, you know, with, in the halls of technologists, you know, talking about how they wish their organizations would say, wow, we really love this technology stuff. You could really help us be better, go make us be better versus why my BlackBerry isn't working. Right. So yeah, yeah. So how do we unlock really the true advantage of technology in our enterprise? And I think our boards can help us try to seek to understand what their true technology advantage might be and to help unlock it in our enterprises.

Dottie Schindlinger (20:03)

I love that you actually just sort of answered the next question I was going to ask you. So I'm going to switch it up a little bit. I'm interested, to get your perspective. You know, boards are not comprised of technology experts yet. To your point, you know, the duty of care, the duty of loyalty sort of commands them to understand the business. And if the business is being disrupted by technology, they've got to know some things. And so do you have any recommendations for those who really aren't technology experts or don't come from that background? What's the best way for them to kind of keep pace? Are there things they should be reading, courses they should take? Like how would you approach it if you really weren't already a technology expert?

Earl Newsom (20:39)

So I, I would say, you know, it's an interesting thing. How do you become a technology expert? And it's interesting challenge in that I would say it's actually more difficult than one might imagine. Right.

Dottie Schindlinger (20:54)

Because yeah, they may, they may not become experts. Right, they may, but they might be able to just be competent. Yeah, literate. Exactly.

Earl Newsom (21:01)

Literacy is, is probably more of an achievable goal because competence, I think this is a fast moving world. Right. And you know, technologists are having difficulty keeping up with the technology world. So. Yeah, so that's why I Was, you know, you know, kind of having difficulty answering the question because, you know, technologists, I mean, you wait five years and all of a sudden what you thought you knew is no longer relevant. And so, you know, I often talk about it this way. We, you know, and maybe this is a great way to think about this, is that we made in the mainframe era, we made 20 year decisions. In the client server era, we made 10 year decisions. In the Internet and cloud era, we made three to five year decisions. And the AI era is becoming a 90 day decision model. Right? And so in the world of 90 day decisions, where things are changing so rapidly, we've got to rethink how we maintain freshness and currency in the technology space. And how do you learn through, you know, reverse mentoring? How do you learn through continuing to stay up to speed and reading? How do you learn through, you know, being the human sensor, right. So where you go out and you observe technology and use not only within your industry, but outside your industry so you can bring that back. So I think the way that technologists have to stay current, right, is becoming that human sensor and taking advantage of that again, reverse mentoring, going out and seeing this in space, meeting and going to the innovation shows where you're seeing what's coming next because next is tomorrow, right? And how that might disrupt or interrupt your industry. That's how technologists have to keep up. I think for non technologists to keep up or to become literate is to continue to read, you know, Davos talking this year about AI industry, right? So reading, getting the summaries from that, from, it's a great way to stay up to speed on what's going on in the industry is listening to, you know, what's happening in Davos and seeing some of those CEO perspectives. I think that's a great way for board and board directors to get at the right level of understanding of, you know, getting synopsis of that, you know, attending shows like, and getting synopsis from ces, right. You know, and these other electronic shows and things like that, as well as staying up to speed, you know, with your board education through the various services, who can maintain that currency with the board education services and then lastly just continuing to read the great newspapers that we have that are still available for us to consume. So becoming aware through kind of that observation and through capturing some of the synopsis from some of those very events and venues and vehicles will give you the ability to really continue to develop and increase your literacy in this very fast moving space.

Dottie Schindlinger (24:18)

Before we shift gears I want to ask one final question to you on this thread, and that is, you know, if I think about the line between business strategy and technology strategy, that feels very blurry to me now. It feels like those things are kind of becoming one. So I think about that. In regards to how boards structure their agendas and their committees and committee work and talent profile, do you have any thoughts or recommendations about how boards might need to shift things up to be a bit more future ready, knowing that business strategy and technology strategy are really no longer two things, but they're really becoming one?

Earl Newsom (24:52)

Yeah, I think that's a great way to phrase it. Technology and business are one, right? You know, there was a saying, digital is the business and the business is digital, right? I think now that's becoming even more pronounced as the business is AI and AI is the business, right? And so strategy needs to really cover both, right? Again, what Marc Jandriesen said I think is so appropriate today is software is eating the world. And when software eats the world, your business strategy becomes your technology strategy, right? And vice versa. And so you need to understand, you know, again, that premise, whoever wins AI in their business or industry wins their industry, right? And that's what strategy is about. You know, where to play, how to win. Right. And if how to win, technology is a mechanism of how we're going to win, that becomes embedded into your business strategy. So it's not a separate strategy. It is embedded within your business strategy. Therefore, the board, when they're doing their strategic work, should be having a plank of their strategy be not only just location, you know, talent, technology. And that is going to be a part of how we do business. In fact, I'm encouraged for organizations, you know, as we move down this path, we used to have these separations of engineering, technology, information technology, operation, technology. I think they're all should become technology. And I think we should be thinking about challenging our businesses from a board perspective to have a president of technology, right? Where this president of technology is responsible for all of the technology functions, not only just the back office, but they're looking across the entire technology portfolio. And how is that delivering value from a strategic standpoint, how is it driving growth, how is it reducing expense, how's it mitigating risk, right? From a president of technology standpoint, where they have line accountability, right, for the technology function, much like another president in your business unit has. And again, as software eats your company, this notion of becoming a software company in the business of doing X, you know, that's the future of business as You're a software in the company that's in the business of distributing, you know, roofing tiles.

Megan Day (27:33)

Right.

Earl Newsom (27:34)

And so when you become that software business that's in the business of doing this, or a software integrated distribution business, right. You know, that may necessitate your strategy committee or whatever committee or the full board that's looking at it, is looking at it, looking at your company as a software integrated product company. And the company itself may need to rethink about how it structures itself with that presidential technology leading that software integrated portfolio that's going to drive growth, expense management and risk reduction in your business.

Dottie Schindlinger (28:12)

So as you're talking, Earl, I'm thinking, so in other words, let's not dump all technology decisions on the audit committee. Sounds like that's probably not the path to success, given how broad this is.

Earl Newsom (28:23)

Right.

Dottie Schindlinger (28:24)

Well, Earl, before I let you go today, we've got three questions that we like to ask every guest that joins us on the show. So the first question is, what do you think will be the biggest difference between boardrooms today and 10 years from now?

Earl Newsom (28:37)

Wow, I'm going to go out on a limb. And I love that thought. What's going to be the biggest difference? It's going to be something, you know, we've, we've talked about digital colleagues in the workplace. What about a digital director? So you'll have AI be participating in the boardroom, right, as an AI director. A digital director. Right. That's a pure digital being a language model with agency and that kind of stuff. Participating as a board member.

Dottie Schindlinger (29:19)

It's happening. I think you're right on the money. I don't even think it's 10 years. It might be 10 minutes. So that's great. Well, the next question, Earl, is what's the last thing that you read or watched or listened to that made you think about governance in a new light?

Earl Newsom (29:37)

See, the thing I made me think about governance, like from a board perspective in a new. Right. I think it is, I would say that I am actually, as I talk about currency, right. And I talk about how does technologists maintain currency, I'm actually in the middle of the taking an AI course that's given by a university. And as I was thinking about that AI course and some of the things that it's trying to teach us around, how do we think about risk from an AI standpoint and governance from an AI standpoint. That was the thing that made me rethink about in the world of AI, in the world of hallucinations and, and models and model drift and risk and reward. How do we govern a world where AI is prolific and AI may be going on in places in your company that you don't know about? And how do we think about governing a world where AI is prolific and available to anybody, anywhere, on any device? I've been recently thinking about that. And how do we find a way to govern in a world where AI is pervasive?

Dottie Schindlinger (31:04)

I love that. And finally, Earl, what is your current passion project?

Earl Newsom (31:11)

So this is going to be way off the beaten path, right?

Dottie Schindlinger (31:13)

But I love it.

Earl Newsom (31:16)

My passion project right now is this, is that I actually belong to a golf organization. It's a group of guys that started in 1984 called the Blakely Golf Association. And we've been playing since then, going to Myrtle beach about a week a year for the past 40 some odd years. I've been going 37 of those years. Right. And I find it the, the way we play golf really finds a way to allow everyone to participate. You know, in a world that's so divided, we have a way of playing golf that unites us all and that you. It allows for somebody to, you know, shoot a 72 and lose money. And so the way that we play and the games that we play is just so. It's so rewarding to me. And the awards that we give, like, we give out a green jacket, we give out a, you know, a most improved golfer. We give out a bunch of awards that just promote unity, promote, you know, friendship. In fact, we say, you know, we have a. We have a toast. And it's called to ships. You know, and it says they're wooden ships, they're iron ships, they're ships that sail the sea. But the best ships are friendships that may, they always be. And that is that we say it in every time we meet. We say it sometimes, every evening when we get together and live. It's about this concept of friendships in unity, unity and coming together. And so my passion project is to take that magic that is the BGA and make it available to everyone. And so I'm building an app called the BGA Golf App. And we're in the midst of testing it and, and get. Making it available for people to use either for golf clubs or golf events or individuals to try to take that magic of the BGA in that ships philosophy and manifesto and make it available to everyone.

Megan Day (33:34)

I love that.

Dottie Schindlinger (33:35)

Well, Earl, thank you so much for joining us on the show. It's been so great speaking with you today.

Earl Newsom (33:40)

Oh, Dottie, thank you very much for the opportunity I hope this was useful and helpful, if not either, at least entertaining.

Dottie Schindlinger (33:49)

We've been joined today by Earl Newsom, the Chief Information Officer at Cummins Inc. And board member of First Independence Bank. Earl, thank you so much for joining us.

Earl Newsom (33:57)

Thank you, Dottie. Take care.

Megan Day (34:07)

Great conversation. Do we were joking earlier that I feel like we haven't had this perspective on the podcast since we started. This was sort of our original, you know, mo when we got into this gig several years ago.

Dottie Schindlinger (34:22)

It's so true, Megan. I mean, so I had this incredible opportunity to go to this program called Mellom, run by Insight Partners in Iceland in November, and it was me with a group of about 16 CIOs from all over the world. And, you know, it was one of those forehead slap moments for me where I was like, we need to have this perspective back on the podcast. Because truthfully, we're hearing how many boards are looking for this kind of talent and then maybe not really understanding the best way to leverage that insight once it comes onto the board and what they need to do as well. Like, how can they bring themselves up to speed? I mean, I asked Earl that question and obviously you can't become a technology expert in like, you know, a fortnight, but you can certainly become more literate and you can certainly start to read some of the same things that your CIO is reading and maybe have different conversations with the technology team and really start to get yourself up to speed. But what were some of the things that stood out to you, Megan, because he had so much good stuff to share?

Megan Day (35:19)

Oh, I mean, the idea of making 90 day decisions instead of, you know, years long, 20 years, like how fast the world is moving around us and how short the window is until everything changes again.

Dottie Schindlinger (35:38)

Well, and not only that, but I'm glad you pointed that one out because he was talking about, you know, in the server era, we used to make 20 year decisions. You know, fast forward to the cloud software era, we're making decisions in three to five year increments. Now in the AI era, it's 90 day decisions. That span of time from server level decisions to AI level decisions. We're only talking like 15 years. People like, this is not that long ago. And so that's kind of the average tenure of board members in the U.S. right? So if you think about it, a lot of board members are, you know, maybe the last time that they were having to make these kinds of strategic decisions as operating executives, they were thinking in 20 year increments. That's a big shift. I mean, That's a really hard left turn. I think if you're on a board these days, that's, that's hard and making. I mean, is there anything about the way the board is structured to help with 90 day decisions? I mean, that's. You'd make two decisions between each board meeting.

Megan Day (36:33)

It all comes back, Dottie, that we just have to flip the table over and start anew.

Dottie Schindlinger (36:39)

Well, and that's why I wanted to ask him, like, what do you think needs to change about governance in this new era? And I thought some of his comments there were really telling. I mean, the fact that, you know, technology and business aren't two things. They're one thing that you need to have a strategy, and it is both technology and business. And you know, he kept saying that, that saying that, you know, the business is now AI and AI is the business. Can't think of those two things a separate or as a department or as a project. It's the electricity, it's the undercurrent under everything. And I just wonder how many companies are really already positioned to do that. I don't think it's many. I think they're still making bets on AI and waiting to see what will pay out and a little confused as to whether or not those bets are paying off. Um, in the meantime, it's working its way through the, the, the bedrock and the infrastructure of everything. And it's all very squishy right now. Like there's not a, there's not a lot of clear strategy, clear pathways, at least in my, in my observation for most companies. What, what do you think, Megan?

Megan Day (37:48)

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think that AI leadership, to steal a page from his book, that AI leadership is now just talent leadership, and that is one in the same. And so the companies that are going to win are the companies that create and enable a workforce that is adaptable, that is skilled, that is aligned with the purpose and the mission and the vision of the organization, but can move at the speed that is now required and that requires partnership with AI.

Dottie Schindlinger (38:25)

Well, Megan, that's a good place for us to wrap up this episode of the Corporate Director Podcast, the voice of modern Governance. Like to say a few special thank yous, first and foremost to our technology and board leader, Earl Newsom, podcast producers Laura Klein, Kira Ciccarelli and Steve Clayton, the sponsors of this show, including kpmg, Wilson Sonsini and Meridian Compensation Partners. And most especially, thank you to Diligent, the AI company, for sponsoring this show. If you like our show, please be sure to give us a rating on your podcast player of choice. Five stars only, please. You can also listen to our episodes and see more from Diligent Institute by going to diligent.com resources. Also, if you serve on a nonprofit or public sector board, then tune into our sister Diligent podcast, Leading with Purpose, for expert conversations on governance, risk and compliance that makes an impact for mission driven organizations. Thank you so much for listening.

Podcast Host (Intro/Outro) (39:18)

You've been listening to the Corporate Director Podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about corporate governance and tools to help directors do their job better, visit www.digent.com. thank you so much for listening. Until next.